"Cheating Toe Loops"

[jskater49]

8O 8O Now I know what I'm doing wrong on the toeloop! But... but... how do I get all the way around without the cheat? 8O 8O

I didn't want to hijack the practice thread so I started a new thread because I was thinking about this...honestly, when you learn this jump, don't you pretty much have to turn on the ice to figure out what the heck you are doing?

My first half flips and half lutzes were turning on the ice, because I really had no clue of the mechanics. And I was just plain scared to jump

I understand there are bad habits to avoid especially so you aren't doing toe axels later on and I guess that's the question, what is a bad habit and what is walking through the jump, and getting used to trying to get up in the air some time - even if it is after you've turned.

It's kind of the same thing with a salchow, when you learn it, you do a 3 turn and a waltz jump ...

j

[SkatingOnClouds]

Well I dunno. When I learned these jumps years ago, my coach insisted we do them correctly from the beginning. These days there does seem to be a school of thought that says it's okay to learn things cheated, then correct them as you get better at them.

Personally, I have spent so much time unlearning bad habits (not just in skating), that I think I would've progressed a lot faster if I'd learned right in the beginning.

Doubletoe gave a great explanation in a much earlier thread, of the feeling of floating around. And once you feel that, the jump makes a lot more sense. See if you can find it under one of her posts.

[Sessy]

No I didn't. When I was first doing a salchow I did a jump and a fall on my butt. Later I just magically started landing them, but there wasn't a 3-turn waltz inbetween that. Much rather I cheated the landing than the takeoff.

[Isk8NYC]

Speaking from experience, I can honestly say that learning the jumps properly is more important than getting through them with a cheat. It does establish bad habits, although the thrill of "doing one" is exciting.

I KNOW the right way to do the jumps, but I developed bad habits that overrode what I learned. Maybe because I was an adult with a lot of speed, I "got away with it" a lot. You really can't teach yourself because your eyes aren't removable. A video camera shows a 2-dim picture and can't zoom in to highlight the mistakes. Oddly enough, my students get annoyed that I don't let them "get away with" bad checks and poor technique.

I've been taking lessons and relearning all those jumps the *perfect* way. While it's much harder, the muscle memory you develop from doing it properly helps you with later jumps. In a way, taking a long break from skating was good - I'm relearning some of these jumps from scratch, such as the loop jump with the RFI3 entrance.

Proper technique and repetition builds a strong foundation.

That said, I sympathize with you, I really do. I can cheat "anyjumpanytimeanywayanyplace." HAHAHA!

[Sessy]

Ok, so I see where one can pre-rotate on the toeloop. After learning it right at first, at some point I just got this bad habit out of the nowhere somehow that doubletoe had good suggestions to undo. I see where you can cheat a salchow, cuz when I sprained my landing leg anckle I was doing sal's without ever taking off the ice. I can see how to cheat a loop, holding the outside edge practically till you fly off it by yourself. A cheated lutz is a flutz. I've seen axel cheats too.

But how on earth does one cheat a flip?

[Isk8NYC]

The same way you can cheat any jump: turn some of it on the ice, don't rotate completely and don't land on a clean edge with the free foot in front.

[jskater49]

Shrug. Both the coaches I've had and are known for excellent jump technique and people comment on my daughter's good jump technique. I just know that if you just made me jump without letting me walk through the technique I wouldn't even understand where to begin. Considering even getting up on my toe pick is a challenge for me. I'm not looking for any "thrills of jumping" I'm gonna trust my coach on this one.

j

[looplover]

I KNOW the right way to do the jumps, but I developed bad habits that overrode what I learned. Maybe because I was an adult with a lot of speed, I "got away with it" a lot.

Oh boy I know how that goes...I've been unlearning a lot of bad habits over the past year and am grateful to my coach for it.

[Emberchyld]

The same way you can cheat any jump: turn some of it on the ice, don't rotate completely and don't land on a clean edge with the free foot in front.

8O 8O Free... foot.. in... front? 8O 8O Argh... so, now I'm doing a pseudo toe waltz with an icky landing :frus: :frus:

Okay, so my coach has me drilling: glide back, jam toepick into ice, hop UP into the air, land without killing myself, repeat-- just to get me more comfortable with using that toepick. Should I really keep workign that to get more height so that I'd actually be able to whip around? Or is there another drill that I can do so that I can get the full rotation without cheating?

[Emberchyld]

8O 8O Free... foot.. in... front? 8O 8O Argh... so, now I'm doing a pseudo toe waltz with an icky landing :frus: :frus:



Y'know, I just read that and thought that it would be a fairly cool thing to tell the non-skaters around me when they ask what I'm doing....

[Isk8NYC]

I'm doing a pseudo toe waltz with an icky landing
I dunno...sounds more like a syndrome than a jump. LOL

As for the rotation, you're just starting out. I teach all jumps as "pick, pull, pop (no rotation), and p After a few lessons, your coach will add the upper body/shoulder/arm checks that makes the jump rotation easier. Keep working the drills. Also work on holding that back edge/free foot reach - the stronger you get at that, the better control you'll have over the toe in.

BTW, don't bend your knee and "hammer" the toepick into the ice.
It's not pretty and can cause injuries.

[doubletoe]

On the toeloop takeoff, keep your picking foot facing the direction you're coming from (think of keeping that left hip closed and knee facing where you came from) so you don't turn your foot forward before leaving the ice. The difference between just jumping straight up and jumping up and rotating is what you're doing with your right leg. As you leave the ice, cross your right thigh over your left leg so your right leg is aiming the jump 90 degrees to your left. So the left foot has not turned, but you have a little head start with the landing leg.

[techskater]

You can use the "back pivot entry" method. Basically your take off position ends up looking like a back pivot that then leaves the ice. It keeps from having a cheated take off and when you drive your non-picking foot through, it creates a really nice jump. I looked at mine this morning on video in my lesson with my coach and with a little more free leg drive, was able to clean up my double toe from ~ 1/4 cheated. Yes, I was quite happy about that and proceeded to do it in the program! :)

[jskater49]

You can use the "back pivot entry" method. Basically your take off position ends up looking like a back pivot that then leaves the ice. It keeps from having a cheated take off and when you drive your non-picking foot through, it creates a really nice jump. I looked at mine this morning on video in my lesson with my coach and with a little more free leg drive, was able to clean up my double toe from ~ 1/4 cheated. Yes, I was quite happy about that and proceeded to do it in the program! :)


I think that is what my coach is trying to get me to do because she told me to work on back pivots...that's what I was talking about pulling my non-picking leg back across my picking foot.

j

[doubletoe]

I think that is what my coach is trying to get me to do because she told me to work on back pivots...that's what I was talking about pulling my non-picking leg back across my picking foot.

j

Hmm. . . Sounds like something I'll need to try! So you do a regular RBO pivot (left toe in ice) and then. . . at what point do you actually take off? I take it you don't do a full revolution on the pivot like you do when you pivot to a full stop?

[jskater49]

Hmm. . . Sounds like something I'll need to try! So you do a regular RBO pivot (left toe in ice) and then. . . at what point do you actually take off? I take it you don't do a full revolution on the pivot like you do when you pivot to a full stop?

Ask techskater cuz I'm still cheating mine...but she's having me work on the back pivot just to get used to that position, i don't think you need to enter that way, that's just the position you end up in and did occur to me it's pretty much impossible to turn on the ice before you jump if you do it right, which I don't, of course..:roll:

[techskater]

You don't turn at all in the back pivot, the position for the pick looks like a back pivot which is why I put it in quotes. You do the three turn, pick in the position you would do a sweeping back pivot (so - far back instead of in the sand box) and press the weight up and over. My take off is never toe-axeled because I use this entry. It has a little check mark in the ice where it takes off.

[jskater49]

You don't turn at all in the back pivot, the position for the pick looks like a back pivot which is why I put it in quotes. You do the three turn, pick in the position you would do a sweeping back pivot (so - far back instead of in the sand box) and press the weight up and over. My take off is never toe-axeled because I use this entry. It has a little check mark in the ice where it takes off.

I did this today and was able to get in the correct position and did jump without turning on the ice. But of course this does nothing to prevent you from cheating the landing.... I'm not sure I can even get my body around for a full rotation...

j

[Team Arthritis]

You don't turn at all in the back pivot, the position for the pick looks like a back pivot which is why I put it in quotes. You do the three turn, pick in the position you would do a sweeping back pivot (so - far back instead of in the sand box) and press the weight up and over. My take off is never toe-axeled because I use this entry. It has a little check mark in the ice where it takes off.

Yeh this is what my coach has me do. An alternate exercise (CCW jumper) is a LFO half swoop(R arm front), legs and arms together stand tall, RBO swoop (L arm front), L toe in and pull onto it like a brief back pivot and SIT on you L foot then you HAVE to use the draw of the free leg to get your momentum to get up for the toeloop. Gotta be strong for that exercise to work, aka more strength than skill.:roll:

AS for my troubles with Waltz toe vs solitary toe: Seems that the problem is the landing - Works much better if I land with free leg knee bent and up front and sweep it back instead of landing already open, :frus: dooooh!
Lyle

[techskater]

The back pivot-like entry will never prevent you from cheating the landing, that is made up from the rest of the technique and strength.

The other exercise that seems to help people is mazurkas (not side toe hops/toe taps, real live MAZURKAS). It teaches the draw.

[doubletoe]

You don't turn at all in the back pivot, the position for the pick looks like a back pivot which is why I put it in quotes. You do the three turn, pick in the position you would do a sweeping back pivot (so - far back instead of in the sand box) and press the weight up and over. My take off is never toe-axeled because I use this entry. It has a little check mark in the ice where it takes off.


Okay, I think I know what you mean. The idea is to get the right leg to start crossing over the left while keeping the hips facing the direction you came from, right? (but what do you mean by, "far back instead of in the sand box"?) BTW, I tried your mazurka exercise awhile ago and I think it did help with the timing.

[Team Arthritis]

Mazurkas are even more evil than Bunny hops!
http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/figuren/e060.gif
Lyle

[Mrs Redboots]

Mazurkas are even more evil than Bunny hops!
http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/figuren/e060.gif
LyleOh, there's no comparison! I like bunny hops.....

[Skate@Delaware]

Mazurkas are just sideways bunny hops....and almost as evil :twisted: !!!!!

[jskater49]

Well this is my head, not technique - I'd rather jump sideways, backward, anything but forward so I pick a mazurka over a bunny hop anyday,

j

[SkatingOnClouds]

Ah, back to the great bunny hop debate! My daughter fell on one today, landed on her front, and has a huge graze on her tummy, very painful!

Give me toe loops any day! The only reason that waltz jumps aren't as freaky as bunny hops is that the landing is backwards. Although personally I have never liked the take off either.:roll:

[jazzpants]

You know... I have gotten seriously hurt by both waltz jumps and bunny hops. (Those bunnies are EVILLE when going at extremely fast speeds down the length of the rink and having to alternate between legs. As for waltz jumps, well, okay it's not the waltz jumps fault...it was the boots' fault... but I've had my very worse shin/achilles tendon pulls from landing on a waltz jump.)

BTW: SkatingOnClouds - both jumps can be trained at the wall barrier so that it wouldn't be as scary. I've relearned waltz jumps and bunny hops that way. (Yeah, I know! You and that wall, jazzpants! :roll: But I swear I learn a lot of stuff I usually too chicken to try unless I tried it at the wall.)

As for the original post, secondary coach has me undo the toeloop cheat using the BO pivot method. Sadly, so far the only thing she's gotten me to do is a nice BO pivot. :P (Nice choreography footwork stuff, buuuut... that's not the intent!!!) ;)

Cheers,
jazzpants

(Who is very tired, but can't seemed to sleep... A certain "relative" is visiting...) :roll:

[Sessy]

I like both bunny hops and mazurka's, but the falling leaf is evil.

[mikawendy]

I like both bunny hops and mazurka's, but the falling leaf is evil.

Oh, yes, I agree. I like doing them, but I have trouble getting a good air position. When I do them, they always look really wussy...

[SkatingOnClouds]

I learned bunny hops (and toe-loops) over 20 years ago. Toe-loops remain a firm favourite, whereas bunny hops still scare me just as much today.

I do think the Doubletoes's advice helped my toe-loops better than anything since my return to skating. Even my coach has commented how much better they have been - except today. After a week off due to a work-related back strain, my toe-loops had reverted, but she quickly pulled me up on them and I remembered to "float" my right leg across in the jump.

[russiet]

I opinionated this in past threads....I think the Mazurka has hurt more than helped my toe loop efforts.

A Mazurka has given me a strong pick, but the upper body is all wrong.

When doing a Mazurka your upper body is already rotated in the direction of the landing. When you pop-up, the upper body will momentarily snap back to counter the legs scissoring. When the pick touches down, then the body unwinds and you push out to glide forward on the other foot.

The upper body movement is all backward to a Toe Loop.

Worst thing I ever did was learn a great Mazurka before ever attempting a TL.

[jcookie1982]

I'm scared of the ballet jump! That jump is evil!

[sunjoy]

So if I understand correctly, for the tighter position you neew for a double toe (which I'm not up to yet at all, just trying to conceptualize this), you take-off with the right (CCW jump) thigh sweeping in front of the picking leg, but then switch leg position in the air to get into the backspin position (left crossed over right)?

To answer the Q about rotating the jump on ice: I recently found out that arms help tremendously. By winding up on the check and then very deliberately scooping up-and-in, the jump pretty much took care of itself. First few times I did this it felt like I was propelling the jump with my arms, not my legs. It whips you around just like pulling in your arms in a spin does.

[Skate@Delaware]

I'm scared of the ballet jump! That jump is evil!
I had a hard time with ballet jumps until my coach finally got me to "see the light" and realize...if you jump UP instead of OUT they are much easier, less wicked, and look so nice!

[Isk8NYC]

I had a hard time with ballet jumps until my coach finally got me to "see the light" and realize...if you jump UP instead of OUT they are much easier, less wicked, and look so nice!I teach it as a popup jump and it works well. From a standstill, toe in, jump up in place, come down on the same toe pick, now skate off on the other foot. I also explain that you jump up FACING the audience. The arms and free leg lifts come later, after they're comfortable with the popup and landing.

The hardest part is teaching them to use their toepicks. They're terrified that any use of the toepick will make them fall, yet it terrifies me to see them using the rocker instead of the toepick for a toe jump. I'm sure one of them is going to flip backward and hit their head. (Plus, they're not using the picks for the half-rotation jump landings. "I'll just come down on this curvey part and she won't notice." :roll:) I've added a bunch of "toe walking" to my lesson plans so the students are introduced to it earlier and start actually breaking in their skates. (Half can't point their toes, half can't bend their ankles. Sheesh.)

As for the toe loop, I played with turning the picking foot out to the side instead of picking straight down. It's different, but I don't dislike it - I'll try it some more. It definitely changes the way you sweep the free foot around. I really, really like it for the mazurka jump!

[SkatingOnClouds]

I
The hardest part is teaching them to use their toepicks. They're terrified that any use of the toepick will make them fall, yet it terrifies me to see them using the rocker instead of the toepick for a toe jump. I'm sure one of them is going to flip backward and hit their head. (Plus, they're not using the picks for the half-rotation jump landings. "I'll just come down on this curvey part and she won't notice." :roll:) I've added a bunch of "toe walking" to my lesson plans so the students are introduced to it earlier and start actually breaking in their skates. (Half can't point their toes, half can't bend their ankles. Sheesh.)


Introducing toe walking early sounds like a good idea. My first coach never encouraged it, and I notice I am really scared of doing it, and not good at it. On the other hand, my 9 yo daughter can do it really well, as can most of her class because it is taught. It is something I have to force myself to do, even though I love toe-assisted jumps. And I love big toe-picks (I'm on Phantoms, though my skating level isn't).

[Team Arthritis]

wouldn't you know, the evil demons of Bunnie Hops and Mazurkas saw my last post re hating Mazurkas and Poof! coach now wants to put Mazurkas into my new program - HELP! http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/teufel/n030.gif
Lyle