Pre- Bronze & Bronze FS program

[newskaker5]

I was wondering if anyone could describe some of the elements in a competitive Pre-Bronze and Bronze FS program ex. some of the winning routines at AN, etc(I know there was a thread on this but I cant find it anywhere).

Thanks!:D

[Casey]

They have pre-bronze at ANs?!? 8O

[Thin-Ice]

No, Casey, no Pre-Bronze at Adult Nationals. AN starts with Bronze FS... but there are No-Test and PB categories at Adult Sectionals.

As for the original question... what was medal-winning a couple years ago, may be different this year and the years to come, because of the impending changeover to IJS. A few years ago, many of the younger Bronze skaters attempted (and some even managed to do) flying camels. Obviously, those are no longer allowed. And lutz/loop/loop and flip/loop/loop were jump combinations in the same program by some skaters.. again, no longer allowed (only one 3-jump combination now and four loops in one program violates the Well-Balanced Program content).

I think it also depends on what age category you're talking about too.

Why don't you instead tell us your age (or which age group you'd be in) and ask what people on this board in that category are putting in there programs for this year to give you an idea of what is likely to be seen?

[Casey]

No, Casey, no Pre-Bronze at Adult Nationals. AN starts with Bronze FS... but there are No-Test and PB categories at Adult Sectionals.
Ahh ok, I didn't know they did pre-bronze at sectionals...that would have probably motivated me to go start testing...oh well, there's always the coming year. :)

I have another couple questions but will step out of this thread as I've hijacked it enough. Sorry! :P

[MusicSkateFan]

My 2006 AN Bronze program included:
Back upright spin
Waltz, toe
Flip, loop
upright spin
Sal
Spiral
Lutz
sit spin

Mowhawks, threeturns, crossovers, on the "betweens"
Speed, flow, extension, are things to show if you got them

That was my Gold medal performance for Bronze men class III.

[Terri C]

Although it looks as if I will be taking this season off to move up to Bronze, I will tell you that in my neck of the woods, Pre Bronze is now what I call "Bronze Without the Lutz." You will see spins up to camel and all singles up to flip ( the full lutz is a no- no in Pre Bronze)

[newskaker5]

Thank you! Im 26 now so I think I'd be class I?

[TimDavidSkate]

I competed at 2005 AN (I was 25), I did:

Lutz/Loop/Loop
Flip/Loop
Camel/Att spin
Straightline sequence into salchow/toe loop
Lutz
Scratch Spin

Happily took the gold that day

[TimDavidSkate]

Thank you! Im 26 now so I think I'd be class I?

yeppers, Class 1 ;)

[flying~camel]

I was in Bronze I last year (I got 10th out of 10 at ANs) and will be in Bronze I again this year (I am about to turn 28).

Last year, my program had flip/loop, lutz, flying camel, spiral sequence, loop, layback spin, stag/toe/loop, way too easy footwork sequence and catch foot/back sit combo spin. At ANs, I fell on my lutz, botched all of my spins and flaked out on the stag/toe/loop so it ended up being a stag/toe/hoppy thing. Not to mention my 2nd mark was probably really low.

I don't remember exactly what the winner had in her program (though I skate with her now, so I could probably just ask her!), but I know she had 2 lutzes, with 1 in combo and footwork with bracket-change-bracket. She also has lots of personality on the ice and lovely jumps.

My new program is MUCH, MUCH better for me technically and artistically :D

[skaternum]

Ahh ok, I didn't know they did pre-bronze at sectionals...that would have probably motivated me to go start testing...oh well, there's always the coming year.

A common misconception. Adult Sectionals are more like any old non-qualifying competition (such as Peach Classic or New Years Adult Invitational) than they are like Adult Nationals. And that's because most of Sectionals IS non-qualifying. So you'll see all the skill levels & age classes & "throwaway" events like Spins, Compulsory Moves, Jumps, etc.

If you're even *thinking* about a particular competition, check online for the announcement from the previous year to see what kinds of events were held and what the testing levels are.

[newskaker5]

Thanks so much! How about the elements in competitive pre-bronze at regular comps?

[doubletoe]

A few years ago, many of the younger Bronze skaters attempted (and some even managed to do) flying camels. Obviously, those are no longer allowed. And lutz/loop/loop and flip/loop/loop were jump combinations in the same program by some skaters.. again, no longer allowed (only one 3-jump combination now and four loops in one program violates the Well-Balanced Program content).

Not to throw a wrench into the works, but due to the fact that the AN announcement was published before the corrected version of the adult well-balanced program rules was published, the latest news is that they are NOT going to be enforcing the jump repetition rule at AN this year (or at Sectionals, if the others are following the same rules as Pacific Coast). Instead, you will be allowed to do each jump as many times as you like, as long as you only do it once as a solo jump. They will be limiting combinations, of course, so that you are allowed only 3 combinations, of which only one can be a 3-jump combination. So you could hypothetically do 6 loops in your program without repeating the same jump element. For example, you could do a loop, a loop-loop, a flip-loop and a lutz-loop-loop. I'm not saying I'd recommend doing all loops and no toeloops, just that it would be allowed.

An announcement has already gone out to everyone registered for Pacific Coast Adult Sectionals saying that the wording of the WBP rules here:

http://www.usfigureskating.org/Programs.asp?id=112

is what will be used at Sectionals. Tony Conte (Adult program chairman) has also personally confirmed to me and several other adults that the jump repetition rule will not be used at AN. He says he plans to issue a clarification so that people know that the wording in the competition announcement (and the USFSA link above) supercedes the wording of the corrected rulebook pages.

[TreSk8sAZ]

I won 2nd last year at ANs in Ladies Bronze I. My program had:

Sal/loop
loop
Sit spin
Spiral sequence
footwork (edge pulls, alternating mohwaks, some little hoppy steps, and rocker)
lutz/toe-loop/loop
flip
camel/sit/upright

The pre-bronzes I watched at sectionals usually tried a lutz and definitely had at least a flip, sometimes in combination. Loops and down were strongest. Footwork and flow were the biggest difference between the Bronzes and the Pre-Bronzes, I think.

[techskater]

Prebronze now has a limit of no lutz

[Mel On Ice]

my competitive program last year contained:
loop that eventually change to a loop/loop
sit spin
lutz
spiral sequnce
flip/loop that changed to a waltz/tap toe/flip
camel
footwork
salchow/toe loop
attitude spin

results were mixed...

my last competitive pre-bronze program had:
one foot spin
change foot spin
waltz/waltz
waltz/toe
half lutz/toe
spiral
waltz 3s into a salchow/salchow
two foot spin

[Debbie S]

My Pre-Bronze program last year (basically the same as my current Bronze program with a few changes) had:

back scratch (now just a back pivot, b/c of the new 2-spin restriction in Bronze)
loop (now loop-toe)
RFO spiral
sit spin (now sit-back sit-back scratch - if I ever do it right in comp - lol)
footwork (alternating FI mohawks, double 3's on both feet, slide chasses, and some hoppy mohawk-type steps, into a bunny hop, which has now changed to a flip jump, if I can do it w/o getting 10 minutes behind the music)
waltz-toe into sal (now just a sal-toe)
toe (now a loop)
forward scratch spin

I never won with this program in Pre-Bronze, but I did finish second a couple of times (once to a total sandbagger who should have been in Bronze, at least, but that's a whole other story ;) ). Generally, in Pre-Bronze, the hardest jump you see is a loop, but at NYI, last year, the winner in Pre-Bronze II/III did 2 flips, 1 in combo with a toe loop, and a camel, plus a very low sit and also a backspin. Sandbagger at May Day Open had a lutz (not allowed in Pre-Bronze), all other singles and a waltz-loop, plus a change-sit and camel-sit - you usually don't see those spins in Pre-Bronze, at least not done to a high quality. The main differences between Pre-Bronze and Bronze are power and flow across the ice, jump height, and spin speed, positioning (lower sit spins, for ex), and number of revs. It's rare to see combo spins in Pre-Bronze, but most Bronze skaters have at least 1, if not 2. And Bronze skaters are also doing combos with a loop on the back end, which are usually not seen in Pre-Bronze, although based on what I saw at HC, I think we're going to see less X-loop or X-loop-loop combos in Bronze than in the past. Of course, with the jump repetition rule not being enforced at AN, who knows what will happen there.

[Ellyn]

Last year my bronze program was intended to include the following elements:

flip
salchow-loop
connecting steps and hops to toe loop
camel/sit-back sit
half-rink diagonal steps
half-lutz, turn, loop
back spiral
layback

Then I got injured before the competition I had signed up for, so I watered it down considerably -- I was just happy I was able to skate in the competition at all.

If I compete again this spring, I'll try to add another toe loop, either in combo after the flip or between the half-lutz and loop. Or instead of the last loop if I want to try for salchow-loop-loop combo.

When I'm ready to start trying the whole lutz again, I'll probably get a new program so I can put it closer to the beginning.

[jazzpants]

My Pre-Bronze FS (Group III) program from last year at Sectionals had the following:

Spins:
Backspin
Sit spin
One spin

Jumps:
Waltz-toe loop Jump
Salchow
Flip (probably should have done a toe loop that day since I chickened out of it during the actual comp :roll: , but it felt great at warm-up....)
Loop

Others:
RFO spirals (me too, Debbie!!! LOL!!!)
LOTS of fast connecting footwork and steps!!!

I came in 2nd at Sectionals and won my technical event at Skate SF 2005 with it! 8-)

[Team Arthritis]

dang, I may need to make up one of JazzPAnts old Pre-Bronze for life cards. This is intmidating. The few competitions I've been to, I've always had to skate up at Bronze FS because not enough PB men signed up.8O
Lyle

[techskater]

But Team, you're male which makes it TOTALLY different! ;)

[jazzpants]

But Team, you're male which makes it TOTALLY different! ;)That's right! What's competitive for us ladies may not be the same for the men. So you might NOT need the "Pre-Bronze FS for Life" membership card!!! :lol: You might be surprised to find that you'll actually do just fine at Bronze. ;)

[Terri C]

Sandbagger at May Day Open had a lutz (not allowed in Pre-Bronze), all other singles and a waltz-loop, plus a change-sit and camel-sit - you usually don't see those spins in Pre-Bronze, at least not done to a high quality

I will never forget that day. Debbie and I were watching this skater (Debbie was the first skater in our group and I was the last one) and the looks on our faces were just :o :o .

The program I would have competed with this year:
Backscratch spin
Inside spread eagle to LBO extension to toe loop/toe loop combo
Five step mohawk done in opposite directions
Sitspin
Diagonal line footwork to salchow
Half lutz/ three turn/ waltz toe combo
Crossovers to eight step mohawk sequence
Second sitspin or forward scratch
Yes, my secondary coach who does choreography is a task master, so the loop is at the very end. For my Bronze free test, it's moved up to the beginning!

[Mrs Redboots]

dang, I may need to make up one of JazzPAnts old Pre-Bronze for life cards. This is intmidating. The few competitions I've been to, I've always had to skate up at Bronze FS because not enough PB men signed up.8O
LyleI shouldn't worry, Lyle - Husband has done very well indeed at Bronze last season with just the following elements:

Upright spin
Camel spin (this is now broken, we don't know when it will mend!)
Cherry flip (sorry, toe-loop)
Salchow
Salchow-cherry combination
Loop jump

It's different for men! He's hoping to have a flip jump by the time this season starts, and just possibly a loop in combination, although he's not too sure of that.

[NoVa Sk8r]

As Terri C mentioned, it depends on where you are competing and which competitions you are entering.
When I was in bronze, I did these elements and was always striving to add more:

flip
camel/catch camel
lutz
waltz, half-loop, 1/4 flip, flip
sit-change-sit
loop/loop
diagonal footwork sequence
flip/half-loop/salchow/toe loop
flying camel (no longer allowed in bronze)

Plus spread eagle, hydroblade, and spirals

I'm still convinced it all comes down to speed; flow; posture; expression; and good, basic crossovers.

[jazzpants]

I'm still convinced it all comes down to speed; flow; posture; expression; and good, basic crossovers.You're probably right. I have consistently either won or was a Silver Belle at Pre-Bronze. I kept thinking that the judges were pulling a joke on me given my crappy jumps. I figured that was the only thing that carried me well is probably that "second score."

[doubletoe]

I'll have to agree with NoVa and Jazzpants. Particularly at Bronze, it's a matter of showing the judges you can skate. Skating is everything that happens between jumps and spins. Do you use your edges when you skate? Do you have good speed and flow? I remember when I was in Bronze, I thought I must have won this competition because I had completed all of my elements better than everyone else (including lutz-loop). But I came in third and was flabbergasted. My coach later told me that I had skated much slower than I usually did, and that was why I placed where I did. Boy, that was the single most educational skating experience I've ever had!

[newskaker5]

I was wondering if anyone had any video footage or could describe the elements in their PB and B FS programs. I would like to within the next yr work up to a competitive Bronze program and would love to see what is the norm with routines at these 2 levels. Thanks!

[jskater49]

Well this is probably NOT helpful to you at all because my pre-bronze fs that I'm going to be debuting next week is so not competitive...I'm not even doing a salchow...but hey you gotta start somewhere and somebody has to be last...and I feel like talking about my program - because I like it :P

My music is ashokan farewell - I begin with a back pivot, 4 cross strokes, a couple of crossovers, forward outside spiral, scratchy two foot turn, back outside spiral into a waltz jump ...some inside edges and turns with pretty arm movements, one foot upright spin, back progressives into a half lutz, LF0 3 toe tap RF0 3 turn toe tap to a half flip, lunge, those back crossovers where you hold the outside edge and and raise your arm - I don't know what they are called but they look pretty...waltz jump side toe hop which someday will be a toe loop, two foot spin...that's it I'm done, thank you thank you.

J

[Mrs Redboots]

I was wondering if anyone had any video footage or could describe the elements in their PB and B FS programs. I would like to within the next yr work up to a competitive Bronze program and would love to see what is the norm with routines at these 2 levels. Thanks!Well, husband's first programme last year, which he skated at Bronze at the Mountain Cup consisted of (imagine linking steps, etc):

Back spiral
Upright spin
Toe-loop
Straight line step sequence
Salchow-toe-loop combination
Forward spiral
Loop jump
Salchow
Camel spin (at least, this was what it was meant to be, but it doesn't always work!).

This year, there will be a flip, salchow-loop, loop-toe-loop and I'm not quite sure what the 4th jump will be. Probably salchow by itself.

[jskater49]

back progressives into a half lutz,


"back progressives" hahaha, I wish. Back chasses into a half lutz..I get those mixed up for some reason.

j

[Debbie S]

Pre-Bronze programs tend to run the gamut. When I was in Pre-Bronze, I competed against people who had jumps through a flip (well, once there was someone with a lutz, but that's not allowed), plus camel, sit and back scratch spins. Then, there were people whose hardest jump was a salchow and just had 2 upright spins. Speed and power varied. I also competed against someone once who was obviously a high-level dancer (or who had skated as a kid and just hadn't tested higher than Pre-Prelim) and had a layback spin, Ina Bauer, and an inside to outside (COE) spread eagle that took up about half the length of the ice. Her hardest jump was a salchow, but she won easily b/c of her overall skating. I've never seen her at any comp since so I assume her (and her coach's) thinking was she'd enter a comp once at a level where she'd be beyond competitive, and have an easy win. I can't understand why an adult would want to sandbag like that, but I guess everyone has different philosophies. Which shows that you can't judge your progress by how you place in comps.

Most Pre-Bronze programs have jumps through loop, and a sit spin and forward scratch, with some sort of footwork or connecting steps. At that level (well, really all levels), basic skating skills (stroking, power, flow) usually make the difference in placement.

In Bronze, the competitive programs have jumps through lutz (with the lutz usually in combo with a toe loop or loop) and there is usually 1 jump combo that has a loop on the back end. Most have a change-foot spin and a camel spin (either stand-alone or in combo with a sit spin). To be competitive, you also need to have great power, ice coverage, and flow and get good height on your jumps. And hold spins for at least 5 or 6 revs on each foot.

[jak0203]

My pre-Bronze program had:
attitude spin
waltz jump side toe hop waltz jump
salchow-toe loop
scratch spin
spiral
back spiral
flip
straightline footwork

To upgrade it to bronze we added:
sit spin instead of the scratch spin
Waltz-loop instead of the waltz side toe hop waltz
added a loop jump

The thing that my bronze program didn't have that many others did was a lutz or a lutz-toe loop. Also camel spins are pretty popular.

[newskaker5]

Thank you all so much!

Question: what kind of footwork do you all do? I am a pretty good jumper and spinner but the footwork is where I struggle - I have a hard time just seeing it and doing it - any combinations you could give me to try for a PB or bronze program? is it usually a series of 2 turns, etc?

[Debbie S]

My (once Pre-Bronze, now Bronze) footwork sequence consists of a combo of FI mohawks, FI double 3-turns, slide chasses, and some other quick steps. The key to doing good footwork is to bend your knees and stay on edges (not on toe picks). You want to cover as much as you can and make it look smooth.

[newskaker5]

Thanks Debbie- btw, what is a chasse?

[Debbie S]

Thanks Debbie- btw, what is a chasse?Hard to explain online. It's from the Gold/Intermediate MIF. It involves pushing your blade into the ice with your other foot parallel, both on inside edges - you should hear a rip sound and generate some power from the pushes - get your coach to show it to you.

You know, it would probably make more sense to discuss a footwork sequence with the person choreographing your program, b/c footwork depends both on the steps you can do as well as what your music calls for. Inserting a random set of steps from someone else's program probably isn't the best way to go about it.

[Mrs Redboots]

"back progressives" hahaha, I wish. Back chasses into a half lutz..I get those mixed up for some reason.

jThey can look very similar.... the Willow Waltz has (for the lady) a back progressive run followed by a back chassé, and it's not always easy to see which one the lady meant to do. At least, not when the lady is me.

[Mrs Redboots]

Thanks Debbie- btw, what is a chasse?Don't you do these in your learn-to-skate? I know our lot do. They're most commonly done on an inside edge. You are skating on an outside edge, either backward or forward, on either foot. You then place your other foot down beside the skating foot, on an inside edge, and lift the skating foot off the ice, keeping it parallel to the ice, for a beat or so. No push is involved, and you don't lift your foot too high - just clear of the blade. It's important to remember the first edge - the movement is edge, chassé, edge - too many people rush the first edge. You can do inside chassés, but they are harder, I think. Not impossible, though, with a bit of practice.

A slide chassé is similar, but the foot is slid forwards off the ice, rather than lifted straight up. It's really hard to do these well without sticking your behind into the middle of next week. And a closed chassé is just another name for a cross-behind, where the foot crosses close behind the ankle of the skating foot before being put on the ice. The skating foot is then lifted off and placed beside, or in some cases also behind, the (new) skating foot, to push off again.

Most beginning skaters - and not a few intermediate ones - spend ages skating round and round the circle doing chassé, closed chassé, or chassé, slide chassé. Or round and round the rink, on alternating feet.

[Derek]

Don't you do these in your learn-to-skate? I know our lot do.

Yes, at level 4 of LTS UK I think, introducing the forward crossover at level 5, then backward chasse at 6 ...

[hulas8r]

I will be taking my Pre-Bronze moves test at the end of March and wondered if you have to test for Pre-Bronze Free before competing?

[flying~camel]

I will be taking my Pre-Bronze moves test at the end of March and wondered if you have to test for Pre-Bronze Free before competing?

It depends on what's in the competition announcement. Most competitions will allow you "skate up" a level, so, in that case, you would not have to pass Pre-Bronze FS in order to compete in Pre-Bronze.

[NCSkater02]

I will be taking my Pre-Bronze moves test at the end of March and wondered if you have to test for Pre-Bronze Free before competing?

I competed Pre-Bronze before I tested. You can skate up or skate "No Test"

[Ellyn]

I was wondering if anyone had any video footage or could describe the elements in their PB and B FS programs. I would like to within the next yr work up to a competitive Bronze program and would love to see what is the norm with routines at these 2 levels. Thanks!

Check out this thread from last month.

http://www.skatingforums.com/showthread.php?t=22517

Maybe the moderators could merge them?

[Isk8NYC]

Threads merged.

[doubletoe]

Thank you all so much!

Question: what kind of footwork do you all do? I am a pretty good jumper and spinner but the footwork is where I struggle - I have a hard time just seeing it and doing it - any combinations you could give me to try for a PB or bronze program? is it usually a series of 2 turns, etc?

All you really need in PB or Bronze is 1/2 rink length of things like 3-turns, mohawks and toe tap/half jump type things.

[flying~camel]

I skate Bronze and my footwork consists of forward & backward 3-turns, rockers and twizzles, but I've really worked to step it up from last year when all I had was forward 3-turns and mohawks.

Now I just have to work on pushing myself to do the footwork well because it's at the end of my program when my legs feel like dead weight. :??

[Ellyn]

No twizzles for me, but I do have a FI rocker and some back threes/double threes in my footwork, for the challenge. And the back threes are actually more comfortable for me in the direction opposite from my spins and jumps, so that lets me change direction.

It's not quite at the end of the program, more the beginning of the second half, but keeping up speed is an issue. Also it's right after a spin, so I need to add a progressive to come around the corner from the spin exit and a chasse to get myself un-dizzy before I can go into the rocker with any speed.