Older Skaters and limitations. [Archive]

SkatingOnClouds

10-01-2006, 03:22 AM

quoting from Rusty Blades aka Dianne:

"My coach and I had a little heart-to-heart earlier this week because I was struggling with forward Mohawks and getting into a funk about how long it is taking to re-learn the basics. She said, "You will never be the skater you were 36 years ago, you know that?" I hung my head and said, "Yes, but I don't have to accept it without a struggle."

This has been bugging me all weekend.

I realised that what bugged me is that I hate people placing limitations on me in whatever my endeavours. I know for sure that there are some things I do better now than I did 20+ years ago. Mohawks for one thing, and even though my loop is really still a work in progress, it is most certainly better than the consistent but truly awful little hop I did all those years ago. I reckon even my sit spin could be better than back then.

Adult learners or refreshers at any undertaking will have physical limitations (which are extremely frustrating) and fears to overcome, yet we can also be far better at analysing a skill and applying different strategies to overcoming limitations.

So while Dianne's coach may be right in terms of sheer physical achievement, I do not believe that it necessarily means we cannot be in some ways better than when we were younger.

I too struggle with having to re-learn basics, and my ever-patient coach is continually trying to get me to focus on edges and entries, so I share Dianne's frustrations and wonder whether I will ever get back to where I was.

I think if my coach started putting those sort of limiting statements on me I would question that coach's commitment to taking me as far as I am able to go. I think I and my body will know when to say "that's as far as I go".

What do other older skaters think?

Award

10-01-2006, 04:25 AM

quoting from Rusty Blades aka Dianne:

"My coach and I had a little heart-to-heart earlier this week because I was struggling with forward Mohawks and getting into a funk about how long it is taking to re-learn the basics. She said, "You will never be the skater you were 36 years ago, you know that?" I hung my head and said, "Yes, but I don't have to accept it without a struggle."

This has been bugging me all weekend.

I realised that what bugged me is that I hate people placing limitations on me in whatever my endeavours.

I think the coach shouldn't say things like that, because each person is different.....different physical/mental strength and abilities.

If you're enthusiastic and have a huge desire to learn things, then by all means....just have fun, take your time...as much time as you want really, and then just see how many things you can do. Because there's no way that you're going to learn nothing. That's for sure. So, I wouldn't even worry about what that coach said. It's not always true about what they said - assuming they meant that you won't be able to do certain things. On the other hand, your coach might mean that your muscles/tendons have not been worked for a long time, then maybe they just meant that only....that is, you'll probably have to take time to work-out and get back some flexibility. Maybe that's all the coach meant.

IceAge

10-01-2006, 04:47 AM

It all depends on your own abilities and time you are spending on the ice.Listen to your body .I know what I say because I have this odd situation I'm not a child anymore but,as I've started in my teens, I'm quite fearless (even when I fall sometimes ;) ).And I know what you feel - I hate when people say I probably won't have any triples , but I know it is possible( my coach thinks so too), as I already land my doubles .

DallasSkater

10-01-2006, 08:36 AM

I don't mind when my coach or others remind me that my expectations need a reality check at times. I started at age 44 with my only childhood experience being a handful of group intro to ice skating lessons and mostly frozen over cranberry bogs!

I think part of my attraction to skating at this later chapter of life deals with the attraction of exploring the boundaries of my abilities. I do get frustrated at times but also have such joy when I am able to get something and prove that it was not impossible...even for me.

The processing with my coach and with others has mostly been positive. I have felt validated in my fears that sometimes surface in a jump expectation or a recognition of my limited grace or age appropriate flexibility. Mostly people have been quite complimentary in their framing of my age.

I tend to agree that there is much to a self fulfilling prophecy and self talk is important. Adult ability to truly evaluate the input from others also helps. It can be used as data to create self doubt or can be used as data to validate owning your own body and expectation! giggle.

Limiting yourself to a more negative version of what is being said is the true enemy IMHO.

Good luck to you!

coskater64

10-01-2006, 08:55 AM

Well, age does have it's limitations but then again, you can do anything so long as you have unmitigated tenacity. I have fought to become the skater I am and I get tired of people saying that my skating as a child given me an edge, as an adult. I only skated for 4 years (14-18) as a child yes I had an axel and some decent cheated doubles (toe). I passed my Intermediate FS as an adult along with my Intermediate and Novice moves in my early 40's.

I believe that I have the skills, and I will continue to believe that, I am starting over again after hip surgery this summer and while it is going to take me longer than I thought I will get back to where I was and then continue onward, when I have my second hip surgery I will do the same. It justs take time and patience, I have neither...but I am working on it.
:D :D

That being said, almost everyday I see a lovely 82 year-old woman skate at my rink, she solid thru lutz and while she says age has it's disadvantages, she still enjoys the sport. She competes every year at AN's and does well...I only hope to make it past 50.

rf3ray

10-01-2006, 09:09 AM

I Believe on how bad you want it.. At My rink there are these 2 ice dancers that are in there 60's still doing there dances when they where competing when they where at 40. They have told me of stories of when they where having lessons with their coaches and stuff.

End of the day its how bad you want it. And how bad you want to work for it.

quoting from Rusty Blades aka Dianne:

"My coach and I had a little heart-to-heart earlier this week because I was struggling with forward Mohawks and getting into a funk about how long it is taking to re-learn the basics. She said, "You will never be the skater you were 36 years ago, you know that?" I hung my head and said, "Yes, but I don't have to accept it without a struggle."

This has been bugging me all weekend.

I realised that what bugged me is that I hate people placing limitations on me in whatever my endeavours. I know for sure that there are some things I do better now than I did 20+ years ago. Mohawks for one thing, and even though my loop is really still a work in progress, it is most certainly better than the consistent but truly awful little hop I did all those years ago. I reckon even my sit spin could be better than back then.

Adult learners or refreshers at any undertaking will have physical limitations (which are extremely frustrating) and fears to overcome, yet we can also be far better at analysing a skill and applying different strategies to overcoming limitations.

So while Dianne's coach may be right in terms of sheer physical achievement, I do not believe that it necessarily means we cannot be in some ways better than when we were younger.

I too struggle with having to re-learn basics, and my ever-patient coach is continually trying to get me to focus on edges and entries, so I share Dianne's frustrations and wonder whether I will ever get back to where I was.

I think if my coach started putting those sort of limiting statements on me I would question that coach's commitment to taking me as far as I am able to go. I think I and my body will know when to say "that's as far as I go".

What do other older skaters think?

dbny

10-01-2006, 09:16 AM

I don't think the coach was putting limitations on her student. As I approach 60, it has become painfully aware that when Dianne's coach said that, she was very simply stating the truth. Did any of you see Torvill and Dean on the UK skating with the stars show? They were still marvellous, but were absolutely not the skaters they had been. This is the nature of life. As we get older, we lose some flexibility, we heal more slowly, we injure more easily, our reflexes slow down, and we have greater perspective. If you are not yet 50, you may not have the perspective and the experience to understand what it all means in terms of athletic endeavor.

When I started figure skating about 6 years ago, of course I hoped to regain the agility, speed, and proficiency that I had on roller skates as a kid. Maybe someone else could have done that, but not me in my body. That doesn't mean that I don't keep trying, but it does mean that I am not going to pine away for something that just can't be. I frequently have dreams that I am flying across the ice the same way I used to fly across the floor at the roller rink, and those dreams are wonderful. Maybe what brought me home to reality was my broken wrist in 2001. It was the third time I had broken my right arm, but was nothing like the first two, which were at 5 and 15 years. My injuries then, except for time spent in a cast, were basically inconsequential. Cast came off, arm was like new. Not so the last time, I was shocked to discover. When you are 5 or 15, a broken arm is not such a big deal, but when you are in your 50's you have a job you must do, cars to drive, other people to take care of, and maybe years until you are back to normal, if ever. Believe me, that puts a crimp in your fearlessness on the ice.

My former coach, who didn't have a clue about any of that, used to laugh if I said anything about such limitations. Well, excuse me, but please don't jolly me along. Recognize the fact of age and it's limitations, and work with that, because that's what we've got. I think I would have appreciated Dianne's coach's comment.

coskater64, you have no idea what a very big difference there can be between learning something in your 40's and learning something in your 50's or 60's. Unmitigated tenacity, like talent, can only go so far.

techskater

10-01-2006, 10:21 AM

I know I am a "younger" adult (only in my 30's who returned in her late 20's), but I will say that I am definitely a BETTER skater now than when I was 15. I work harder, I understand what I am trying to do, I am more focused, I don't fling and pray anymore, and I actually have some consistent doubles that I never had. I've also passed my Intermediate moves as an adult and I am considering going back to pass that dang 2nd figure that tripped me up as a kid since I understand what was wrong with it then.

I will admit though, that I have some hesitation on some elements that I didn't have when I was younger (darn spirals!), and I don't go flying headlong into new elements at top speed because I fear injury doing it that way. I think this is what Dianne's coach was getting at - that hesitation you get from the rational part of your brain!!

emma

10-01-2006, 01:50 PM

Wow I can not believe your coach said that! How about another coach. I do not believe age is a limitation. I skated as a child probably at a Juv. level when I stopped. I started skating two years ago when we moved to an area that had a rink. Last year i decided to start testing again.As a kid i did figures not moves. In one year i took and passed on my first try all the adult moves and free style except for gold free which i will take for the first time in Nov. Also I moved over to the standard track and passed intermediate moves and will hopefully test novice moves in a few months. I have all my singles and combinations back as well as working on doubles which as far as i can see are only limited by my fear of hurting myself when i slam to the ice. My coach has never doubted my ability to continue on as far as i want to go. Oh, by the way I turned 52 today so i say stick a fork in your age, your only limitations are the ones you put on yourself and i bet you can go as far as you want! Go for it. Good luck.

Skate@Delaware

10-01-2006, 02:05 PM

My coach has never stressed any limitations on me due to my age (44); only brought me down from unrealistic expectations as far as testing goes vs. my current abilities. She constantly pushes me to exceed what I think I can do and push beyond my "comfort" level (my previous coach didn't do that and I never really progressed).

Yes, there are some times when age steps in. But all that means is it will take a bit longer to attain a certain skill. If you are willing to try, work hard at it, then don't accept any limitations set on you by other people. They aren't you and don't wear your skin. Go for it!

dbny

10-01-2006, 02:44 PM

emma

10-01-2006, 04:35 PM

emma, I think how much you learned as a kid can make a big difference later in life, and also how long you trained. Don't forget that some are talented and others just have to plug along until we finally get it. Congrats on getting so much back so fast.
I think that is true although i was at a juv. level when I left skating at the age of 12 and back in the 60's juv level was much below what it is today. We were not doing double jumps at all and many of us did not even have an axel. So my skating back then was well below that of today. One advantage we have as adults that many of us did not have as kids is the maturity and the drive to excel. I work MUCH harder today then I did as a kid when I am on the ice I do nothing but work on moves, run my program and work on jumps . I am certain as a kid I spent half my time playing around with friends. Also I get concepts of moves and the need to be very percise in doing them and I am not sure I got the need to do that in figures. Plus I think I am much more driven now then as a kid. Because of all that I have been able to get much better than I was as a kid. It does not come easy to me I just work really hard at it! I was never one of those "talented" skaters and am not now.

lovepairs

10-01-2006, 04:57 PM

SkatingonClouds,

Take a moment and read the "Going to the Olympics" thread.

Skate@Delaware

10-01-2006, 05:56 PM

I do think we tend to drive ourselves harder than most of the kids. Whether that is good or bad depends on the individual. Sometimes it is counterproductive, sometimes not. We work hard for our achievements (some of which are hard-won). We nit-pick and are very picky about how "good" we execute our moves. What is good for a little kid or teen is not good enough (i.e. crap) to us.

Do we expect to go to the Olympics? Most of us can honestly say no (unless as a spectator). Does that make us try any less harder? No way!!! Are we any less determined to perfect the moves? No way!!! For us, the things that hinder our progress is: lack of ice time, financial obligations that interfere with our skating money, our family and jobs that eat into our skating time, our health. I could go on but we all know what I'm talking about. It's that "personal best" type of challenge we accepted when we picked this sport.

Mercedeslove

10-01-2006, 06:14 PM

I'm still having issues with my right forward mohawk and I'll be 28 in 18 days.

I have no problems with the left, but my right leg omg. I can't do anything on it. Spin, jump, mohawks, 3 turns...it's like it's dead

and it really gets me down a lot.

skaternum

10-01-2006, 06:20 PM

I don't see what the big deal is. There are some biological issues that it's pointless to fight. As we age, all things being equal, we lose muscle mass. Many adults lose flexibility too. And let's don't even talk about what menopause does to you! When you toss in environmental factors, such as sedentary jobs and other demands for our time, most adults will never be the <fill in the blank athlete> they were 30 years ago. There's no shame in admitting that.

Which isn't to say that we can't try to compensate for this. We old ones can do everything in our power to stay strong and flexible, like lifting weights and cross training. We can approach our skating "smarter," as some like to say and focus better. Hooray for us!

I don't want a coach who treats me like a grown up brain in a kid's body. I want a coach who challenges me, but who understands that my body has changed. I want a coach who has realistic expectations for me and who will push me as far as we think I can go. I think I'm a good adult skater. Heck, I think I'm a good skater, but I'm 41 years old, fercryingoutloud. I'm not so delusional as to think I have the body or physical capability of an 18 year old. I'm not the least bit disturbed by this.

But I see absolutely nothing wrong with acknowledging that, for most of us, our bodies ain't what they used to be.

Skate@Delaware

10-01-2006, 06:31 PM

Well said, skaternum! It helps to have a really good relationship and level of understanding with your coach. I am on my second coach and she is a gem! She knows about my past auto accidents and the limitations/problems I have because of them. That doesn't give me a "free ride" ticket to goof off and be a slacker, nor would I want to be. She works me hard, but always with the understanding that I will let her know if we need to back down a bit.

Yeah, i hit the weights and do cardio, and stretch almost every night. I have to. I try to watch what I eat also. I can't eat like a 10-year-old (and don't think I'd want to).

It's a struggle sometimes to get on the ice and do stuff, but I listen to my body and know when I'm getting tired, it's time to get off. :giveup: In that respect, I feel smarter than the kids.

Award

10-01-2006, 07:09 PM

I really reckon that when I get to 40+, I'll be equally as powerful as an 18 year old kid.

dbny

10-01-2006, 07:12 PM

I'll second that "well said, Skaternum!"

emma, I worked much harder as a kid than I do as an adult, sorry to say. I started roller when I was 12 and skated till I was 18. I was totally obsessed with it to the point that I didn't have much social life. It was all skating and school. I vividly remember my first coach, who took me through silver, telling me what a good worker I was. I didn't realize till many years later that the subtext was that I had little talent. I'm probably just a tad above average in coordination and balance, but the balance is getting worse with age. I've never been very flexible and have great turn-in and no turn-out. OTOH, I was the kind of kid, unusual I think, who needed everything explained in great technical detail, and I also became a dance judge, so today I grasp what's going on right away. I'm never confused about edges, feet, arms, shoulders, direction, rotation, axes, etc. I know the terminology backwards and forwards. Ironically, now I learn much better by imitation, and watching elite skating always improves my feel for the ice. I often wish I had started ice when I gave up roller, or even in my 40's, when I still felt immortal :)

Rusty Blades

10-01-2006, 07:19 PM

In all fairness to my coach, we had been talking about some of the high-level competitors and their triple jumps and I had been lamenting how SLOW my progress has been. Her comment was an "expectations check" and perfectly in order.

At 57, I do not expect to do any "big jumps". I am a whole lot older, heavier, and have a different "centre of balance" than I did as a skinny 18 year old :roll: That's life. There is, however, nothing to stop me from doing what I do do well and that was exactly the jist of the conversation and lesson.

doubletoe

10-01-2006, 09:44 PM

Chico

10-01-2006, 10:23 PM

Well...maybe most adults don't try to land doubles with force but damn I have been a fool and tried. I am getting smarter and trying to do the technique thing the way I should now. =-) I'm learning that guts will only get you so far and I have a coach that teaches the one and understands the pros of the other in me. I think I have a child skater spirit in my adult body. Yep, I'm another one who hates being limited because I'm an adult. I'm an individual and not just an adult. See me for who I am as a person. Sometimes I feel that I've hit a wall for a week or two as an "adult" and then found that it was just a lull before I made some new progress. A coach should encourage your dreams, they might just be in for a surprise. Besides if you dream you will get further than if your realistic. If I would have believed that I only could do certain skills and obtain certain levels in skating as an adult I would have peaked long ago. I believe in myself and I believe I can learn and achieve much if I work at it.

You can do it too.

Chico

SkatingOnClouds

10-02-2006, 03:05 AM

Yeah, I hear you Skaternum.

My coach has never made me feel I am wasting her limited time, or made me feel that I can't achieve. Our struggle is overcoming my desperation to get back to where I was right now, when there is much in my basics that holds me back. I just have a sense of limited time, and want to achieve all I can before the inevitable happens.

I guess I just didn't like to hear that a coach had said out loud what I never want to have to admit; that it ain't going to happen.

By the way, speaking of dreams Chico, last night I dreamed I did an axel. Not one of those slow motion everything beautiful sort of dream axels, but a real rough and ready yet landed on one foot sort of jobs that would be how it would be if I did do it for real.

Casey

10-02-2006, 04:01 AM

Anybody can do anything...it's just a matter of willingness to learn, courage to overcome fear, playfulness to act like a kid sometimes (which will teach quite a lot that you'll never learn in any lesson), and a coach that's not willing to treat you any differently than anyone younger.

I've been helping an older friend learn to ice skate recently... I challenge him to do things and argue back when he doesn't want to, and try 20 different ways of explaining the same thing until we find something that works. In one day we went from "T-stops are impossible!" to doing them pretty well, and now he's doing them as well as anyone though he'd never done them before in his life. Today was day 2 on one-foot spins from back crossovers, and now he's no longer dragging the to-be-free-leg after the step onto the forward edge, getting around sometimes 4 times or so, and even got the push into a backspin hammered out. We worked on edge exercises and got them deeper and more confident. He can already do the outside edge exercises where you step from one onto the other and every 3rd one, hold the edge for a complete circle. We've done back edges, all the 3 turns, and a few brackets...all things dubbed "unachievable" at first.

He's learning really fast, and I'm not even a coach - I just keep trying different methods and advice until we find something that helps, and don't stop there. I love when something finally clicks and an immediate result can be seen. We also spend time doing things purposefully wrong or varied just to illustrate the difference in feel, and sometimes just act like kids which I think for me helped a lot with building confidence initially. But it's really all him just realizing his potential and getting out there and doing it.

This is a man who I don't doubt will have an axel and doubles within a few years and will end up competing well. By the end of this year I expect his spins to be getting solid, jumps to be up to the loop or flip, and overall moves and posture to be radically bettered. Meanwhile I see people in their 20's in lessons twice a week who look exactly the same as they did 6 months ago (and then there's me, who's gotten worse due to lack of practice and motivation...sigh). The difference is that though they are trying, they don't really believe in themselves at their age, and subconciously it holds them back.

One thing I've learned the hard way - if you set yourself up for failure you WILL fail. If you tell yourself you're fat and can't lose weight, you won't. If you tell yourself you're too old to make as fast as progress as a 10 year old, you won't. If you tell yourself your financial situation is hopeless and you're never going to escape living paycheck to paycheck...you won't. Not only do you have to really believe in yourself, but you have to believe so much that the constant doubts you hear because of your age or current status or whatever from people that don't matter don't make any difference.

Change is possible ANYWHERE that you want, and as long as you believe it, it can and will happen. For a coach, which should be someone you trust very much, to tell you anything unsupportive as mentioned above, is like your best friend coming to you and saying, "you know, you really are fat and ugly". Even if you're not and prior to that you never doubted yourself, that is really damaging and will eat at you.

My opinion is that you should not tolerate such negativity from anyone, especially your coach. Go find one that will believe in you. Nobody else is worth it no matter what their qualifications. And don't forget to believe in yourself unconditionally too, or all is for naught.

Best wishes,

Rusty Blades

10-02-2006, 05:10 AM

My coach is also my best friend and we understand each other and we work well together. What appears (to an outsider) as "negativity" is her attempt to moderate my drive. I set high standards for myself, push myself really hard, and set high goals - I guess you could say I am a pretty intense "Type A" personality. My coach simply hasn't encountered anyone like me before (intensely DRIVEN!) and she is afraid I am setting myself up for failure and disappointment so she tries to keep my expectations realistic. We have only been working together since February and she is still learning that when I set my mind to something, it is GOING to happen! As a team, we are well balanced.

There's more I'd like to say but I am really starting to feel defensive about my coach/best friend so I had better shut up. :giveup:

Mrs Redboots

10-02-2006, 05:42 AM

kateskate

10-02-2006, 06:12 AM

I'll never be a good skater. On the other hand, I do think I can be a better skater than I am at the moment; I know I can use my edges better, I know I can probably improve my partnering skills (well, it does take two, but I think Husband is beginning to realise!).

And the next time my coach tells me that I am "not a natural athlete", which has been being said to me since I was about four years old, I think I'll smile very sweetly at him and say "Well, isn't that something I'm paying you to correct?"

Totally agree. You can always be better.

Free skating teacher says I'm not a natural skater to me all the time but does acknowledge that I work hard and can get results. And she doesn't let my age be an excuse. She treats me the same as she does her 12 yr old skater. We do the same tests at the same time usually - we are both doing bronze field moves next month - and although 12 yr old is way better than me its good to know I am not far off.

Dance teacher doesn't really think anyone is a natural skater and that anyone can do anything with hard work. He did say to me the other day though he wanted to keep practising so that he can still do all the stuff he used to and before he reaches the point of no return - although at 27 I think he is way off that point. He doesn't let me use the 'I'm not a natural skater' or 'I struggle with coordinating arms and feet at the same time' as an excuse ever - as you say - that is what the coach is there to correct.

Its easy for a coach to say you are too old and just give up trying to improve you- its harder for them to try and improve you - just because it usually takes that little bit longer - and needs more explanation. Just my opinion…..

AW1

10-02-2006, 07:30 AM

This is the nature of life. As we get older, we lose some flexibility, we heal more slowly, we injure more easily, our reflexes slow down, and we have greater perspective. If you are not yet 50, you may not have the perspective and the experience to understand what it all means in terms of athletic endeavor.

I have to say it... you obvioiusly haven't seen this when you say you lose flexibility with age... :lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wli0VjOmabU

phoenix

10-02-2006, 07:31 AM

This is a very interesting discussion. Kateskate, from watching your videos & knowing how long you've been skating, there's definitely at least *some* natural skater in you!!! :) Although I totally believe & understand the hard work you've put in to do what you're doing.

I think about this a lot myself because of what my goals are vs. what my age is. I just turned 38+1 (can't actually say it yet). My goal is to get my gold dances, standard track, and also my senior free dance. And my feeling is I have to do it NOW because I don't know how long my body will hold up. I have definitely felt in the last couple of years how I can't just go out & skate anymore without a good warmup. I've definitely made progress, but it's slowed (I think mostly due to the level I've gotten to), and I feel like I'm in this race against time, but the only thing I can do is keep working hard--some things just don't come overnight no matter how hard you work (think being comfortable w/ fast bracket/3/brackets, yikes).....and whether it's because I'm an adult, or really pushing the upper edges of my ability, it has definitely slowed. I worry sometimes that time will win out!

I also have a student who's in her 70's (she refuses to tell me her actual age :lol: ), who started skating in her 60's. And has largely no natural feel for it. But she practices hard and she has made good progress over the few years I've been teaching her. Now---for HER, good progress means she can do very nice fwd crossovers, with no toe pushes. She can do stroking with good technique, forward & backward. She can do forward edge rolls. She can do back crossovers with some flow. We're just starting to work on mohawks. She has the most positive attitude of anyone I've met, but she will certainly never be a fast skater who has lots of tricks. But she loves her skating and I'm so proud of her. I wish all my students were like her!

Skate@Delaware

10-02-2006, 07:34 AM

Casey you are right. I see and hear from the other adults in my rink, "I can't do xxx" and they prove themselves right. We have one woman who has been in LTS for 4 years and is still working on stroking and 3-turns and has not progressed above them. Mainly it is fear and lack of confidence holding them back. You do reach a point where you have to "go for it" but that does not mean going-for-broke! It's just a step of confidence to take it away from the wall, or jump off that toepick, and finally believe in yourself. We can be our own worst enemies as far as limitations go. I try not to be negative anymore and I've stopped saying "I'll never get this" so instead I say "I'm frustrated" or "this is hard." And it helps to have a coach (and friends) that inspire confidence in you and can think out of the box as far as teaching technique (mine is good at that, when one thing doesn't work, she tries something else).

ETA: I was going through a period when I had "do-it-now-itis" because I was feeling my skating biological clock ticking away....I was afraid if I didn't hurry and test boom-boom-boom and do this, that, or the other thing, time would pass me by and I'd never get the chance again (I have health problems and sometimes I freak out because they can change your whole perspective on life in general). I've calmed down a bit from this. I'm still driven but I've become focused and driven to do certain things in a more timely manner. I will get done what I can get done and I don't think anyone can fault me for not having done any less.

techskater

10-02-2006, 07:53 AM

There's a difference between caution and can't.

I am saying that as adults we tend to have more caution than if we were 9 years old. I know I do and I have very limited fear on the ice. I think through my approach to elements now in a way I never did as a kid and it really helps because I know I can't spend two hours doing jump after jump after jump like I did when I was 15 because I'll pay for it the next day.

My coach doesn't treat me as if I'm an adult. She works me very hard, doesn't take "can't" for an answer when we are working on an element, and fully expects me to be able to land a double axel some day (I set that as a goal when we first started working together as a pie-in-the-sky goal, but I am steadily progressing to it) along with passing Senior moves and possibly my Senior FS. That being said, when we are working on a new jump, she DOES advocate caution (slow down!) and spend a lot of time on the mechanics that she might not do with a kid.

DallasSkater

10-02-2006, 07:54 AM

Rusty Blades: I adore that you feel defensive about protecting the special relationship you have with your coach and that you took her feedback as it was meant. As I have posted about the importance of a good relationship with a coach, know that I am envious!

I think this thread has more been a reflection of each person's experience rather than a discussion about the appropriateness of your specific coach. You have obviously chosen well. Further, it sounds like you have done well in being assertive with your coach and getting her on board with your major competiton goals! You raaaawwwk!

Skate@Delaware: What a great way to change some self talk. My coach has teased me the last several sessions reminding me that I told her I could never do edges, I would never jump, I would never spin and in the last lesson I said I just can't do the salchow! I will adopt your statement of "this is hard" instead. When she reminded me of my previous statements I told her I could not do a salchow.....YET! giggle.

Phoenix: Very cool that you are teaching someone at that age. I had had thoughts that I might learn all these skating skills and have such a limited time to be able to enjoy them!

Rusty Blades

10-02-2006, 08:10 AM

I adore that you feel defensive about protecting the special relationship you have with your coach and that you took her feedback as it was meant.

Thank you Dallas! We have a great "balanced" relationship - I try to go a zillion miles an hour and she tries to make sure I don't crash and burn! 8O I don't accept "can't - it isn't an excuse/reason I am inclined to use. When I get frustrated, her comments are more along the lines of "Don't be so hard on yourself." In the 9 months since I started skating I have cracked a rib, twisted my right knee, and presently skate on a sprained ankle but I wont back off - I don't need to be "pushed" but to be held back to a sane pace! :roll: She does that well (and gently).

quarkiki2

10-02-2006, 09:24 AM

I'm perfectly willing to admit that my enormous pink elephant is FEAR.

I have all of the goods to be a great skater -- balance, flexibility, musicality, work ethic and desire. And ONE bad factor: FEAR.

I danced seriously as a kid (was in a semi-professional ballet company). I have more body awareness and knowledge in my pinky toe than most people who get on the ice (this isn't me saying this -- my coach tells me this). I can do axels off ice, but try the stinkin' waltz jump on the ice -- no way!

She says my timing is great, my placement over my blades is right, and my knowledge of technique is right on -- BUT I just need to get out of my darn head. This is a regular topic of discussion for us because there's no reason I can't be doing everything right -- just that I WON'T do it. It's frustrating to no end. I know that one day, somthing will click and I will improve so rapidly that you won't recognize me from week to week. I just need to get to that point, grrrr!!!!

phoenix

10-02-2006, 09:35 AM

It's frustrating to no end. I know that one day, somthing will click and I will improve so rapidly that you won't recognize me from week to week. I just need to get to that point, grrrr!!!!

My suggestion would be to pad yourself up to the gills, & go out & have a splat fest!! Seriously--eliminate the fear of it hurting when you fall, and then go out & intentionally lower yourself down & fall & slide. Once that's not scary, do a sit spin (I'm assuming you can spin), & go down until you fall.

And then as you get bolder & start to try more things, like your waltz jump, keep the pads on. I think in your case, it may be the extra help you need to push you past this point where you're stuck.

Repetition of the "scary thing" actually happening, with no ill effects, is the way to eliminate fear in the human psyche.

Rusty Blades

10-02-2006, 09:39 AM

... pad yourself

That's exactly what I did when "fear" was holding me back in backwards. I was afraid of going down on my tailbone so I made a butt pad. No fear anymore - it's like landing on a pillow :)

jazzpants

10-02-2006, 09:46 AM

My suggestion would be to pad yourself up to the gills, & go out & have a splat fest!! Seriously--eliminate the fear of it hurting when you fall, and then go out & intentionally lower yourself down & fall & slide. Once that's not scary, do a sit spin (I'm assuming you can spin), & go down until you fall.

And then as you get bolder & start to try more things, like your waltz jump, keep the pads on. I think in your case, it may be the extra help you need to push you past this point where you're stuck.

Repetition of the "scary thing" actually happening, with no ill effects, is the way to eliminate fear in the human psyche.And of course, there are those with coaches that would NOT allow us to wear pads on a normal basis and face falling and hurting ourselves anyway!!! 8O 8O 8O

Isk8NYC

10-02-2006, 10:25 AM

There's a difference between caution and can't.There's also a big difference between can't and won't. I'm not going to debate the physical limitations, because I think everyone's done a great job of that so far.

However, the MENTAL portion of it is what holds most skaters back. I have three students who whine "I caaaaaan't do that!" to pretty much anything. These are pre-teens - the adults just think it, the kids think out loud. LOL

This summer, one of the bigger chicks went to a summer camp that had skating and other activities. When I challenge her in a lesson, I just say "Were you the one spinning around up on the "silks" this summer? You CAN do this, then - just say you'll try." She's working on a beautiful split jump now.

skaternum

10-02-2006, 10:33 AM

coskater64

10-02-2006, 11:25 AM

Well, there is a difference between can't and won't, I can't do something at this moment doesn't mean it will never occur. I often say I can't, but I never say I won't...

I think a lot of determination is a given in skating and while I am only in my mid 40's I am not built like a skater, it has not come easily to me but I work very hard at it and my coach doesn't treat me like an adult, she treats me like someone who wants to learn and grow at the sport.

If you think you can't you usually won't so, that's all there is to that but as a side note you should be realistic in your expectations. I'd like all my dances standard track, finish Sr. moves and I'd be happy with my Nov FS, might also shot for some of the Free Dances since I got my Juv last year.

:giveup:

Mel On Ice

10-02-2006, 11:57 AM

I wish I could be all sunshine and rainbows, "always dream!" about my own chances at someday landing an axel or double, but I have to be realistic about things at the age of 37. I won't ever give up on making an axel or double toe a goal, but I also realize I have time against me. I also have other goals that take precedent - career, family, makin' babies, continuing to trial and move up the judging ladder.

dbny

10-02-2006, 12:18 PM

Ya know, I just have to disagree with this. Most people can go farther than they think, but everyone has limitations. I'm all for a positive attitude, but it is not a true statement that anybody can do anything.

You beat me to it. I can remember feeling that way, way back when! Look around and you will see an amazing variation of body types, some of which are going to be good at certain things, and others of which will never be able to achieve some of those things. Don't leave out people with non-typical bodies. We haven't even talked about brains yet, but it's pretty clear that some brains are capable of more than others. We are not all Einsteins.

AW1
Flexibility is variable, as is everything else about individual members of a species. Some people are more naturally flexible than others and retain it longer, even into old age like the 80 yr old woman I wish I hadn't seen (sorry, the whole vid turned me off). Others have to struggle from the start. I've seen the difference in my two girls. One was made of rubber and the other was simply not so flexible. I'm talking about toddlers here! The difference was visible.

skaternum

10-02-2006, 12:33 PM

Why is it that many people here seem to equate being treated "like an adult" by a coach to be something horrid? Why is it assumed that this is bad? Perhaps it's a bad wording choice. What exactly do you people mean? Does being treated like an adult mean that you're not pushed? Not encouraged to be the best skater you can be? Not given the same time and attention as the younger students? If that's the case, you're not being treated "like an adult;" you're simply the recipient of bad coaching or a bad attitude.

To me, being treated "like an adult" on the ice means that my coach works within my physical limitations (knees & back, for example) and my time restrictions while giving me focused, professional coaching. It means having my coach acknowledge that I learn differently from her 10 year olds and that she uses that knowledge to help me become the best skater I can be.

I don't want to be the recipient of a bad coaching attitude. I do want to be treated "like an adult" by my coach.

doubletoe

10-02-2006, 12:36 PM

I have to say it... you obvioiusly haven't seen this when you say you lose flexibility with age... :lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wli0VjOmabU

I agree! The reason most people lose flexibility with age is because they stop doing the things that kept them flexible when they were younger. I was never able to do the splits when I was a kid or a teenager; the only time I've ever done a complete split in my life was at age 29, while stretching out after several hours of skating. But yesterday--at 41--I came the closest I've ever come to repeating it (my crotch was about 2-3 inches off the floor) and I managed to go down just as far with my left leg in front. That's the side that is so tight in the upper hamstring and glute that I've been going to physical therapy for it.

Sonic

10-02-2006, 04:01 PM

I don't think age is necessarily a problem when it comes to athleticism or flexibility - there's a chap at our rink in his late 60's who does amazing shoot the jumps and leaps around the rink without a care in the world.

We adult skaters have it harder than kids; for a start most of us are taller and have a higher centre of gravity...and further to fall. We don't bounce as much as kids, and even those with more of a 'dare' gene in them have to be more cautious.

That does not mean that there are no 'natural' adult skaters; watching some of the vids on here such as Kateskate's and Doubletoe proves that in my book, as did watching the competition yesterday.

IMHO to be a good skater at any age it's perhaps 5% natural talent...and 95% hard work.

S xxx (who can't jump high, can't do a shoot the duck but can spin 10 times better than she did as a kid!)

ouijaouija

10-02-2006, 05:18 PM

I really think the sky is the limit, we all have our problems, but that just means you have to work harder, and we all have good points too!

looplover

10-02-2006, 05:46 PM

Isn't so much of it physics anyway, and working with that?

I'm about to turn 39 and somehow I'm skating better than I ever have in my life (thanks to a better attitude after 2 months off ice). I'm noticing more and more how the placement of my shoulderblades make a huge difference, and I'm a zillion times better skater now than I was when I was in my mid 20s. It seems like no matter what your body size is you should be able to work with physics and get that jump or spin...and the only limit to speed is fear...and with age comes fear...so it seems that fear is the problem and not age.

I think.

Anyway I skate with a guy who is 46 and has the lowest sit spin I have ever seen, I have no doubt he'll be doing that spin for years to come! And his jumps are huge. I always tell him with him around I have no excuse not to progress :P

Hannahclear

10-02-2006, 05:56 PM

I'm somewhere in the middle on this.

I have a job. I have a husband and I will soon have children. I have bills to pay. I have stuff to do. I can't spend two hours per day in the rink.

However, I'm a hard worker, I pay attention to my coach and I practice regularly. No, I'm not making crazy fast progress, but I am a much better skater than I was at this time last year. I was a better skater last year than I was when I got my first post college lessons. And I became a better skater in college than I had been in my high school days.

My moves coach puts it to me like this....."you make steady, incremental progress."

And that's all I want. I want to keep getting better, bit by bit. I'm no great talent and I don't have the time or money to train more than three days per week with an hour of lessons. But it's enough. It's enough for that bit by bit progress.

That makes me very happy.

On the other hand, you have to WANT success. Within each individuals limitations, they have to WANT to get done what they can. I have to WANT to land my axel. I'm starting to understand that. And sure enough, I'm starting to get closer. I'm starting to remember what happens while I'm in the air. I'm starting to be willing to force myself to land on one foot, no matter what happens.

So WANTING is important. Drive is part of the picture, along with realistic expectations.

jazzpants

10-02-2006, 06:07 PM

I have to say it... you obvioiusly haven't seen this when you say you lose flexibility with age... :lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wli0VjOmabUYIKES!!! Would someone please warned me to watch this video at home and not at work??? That's some outfit the dance team's got there!!! 8O 8O 8O

doubletoe

10-02-2006, 06:16 PM

Isn't so much of it physics anyway, and working with that?

It seems like no matter what your body size is you should be able to work with physics and get that jump or spin...and the only limit to speed is fear...and with age comes fear...so it seems that fear is the problem and not age.

I think that is absolutely true. If a fairly athletic adult started skating at 35 and a 9-year old started skating at the same time, provided we each practiced only 6 hours per week and had the same fear level, I think the progress would be similar. Unfortunately, the other difference is that these kids are practicing 15 hours a week and our bodies can no longer handle the same number of hours at the same intensity. That makes it harder to make the same progress, even without the fear.

AW1

10-02-2006, 07:19 PM

YIKES!!! Would someone please warned me to watch this video at home and not at work??? That's some outfit the dance team's got there!!! 8O 8O 8O

Sorry I can only access the internet at home so I forget others don't. Yes the outfits were scary... but boy can she do some wild stuff for an 84 year old! :bow:

cecealias

10-02-2006, 07:24 PM

Might I add --- always a great idea to have your coach show you how to fall so its not so painful!!:lol:

And of course, there are those with coaches that would NOT allow us to wear pads on a normal basis and face falling and hurting ourselves anyway!!! 8O 8O 8O

jazzpants

10-02-2006, 07:43 PM

Sorry I can only access the internet at home so I forget others don't. Yes the outfits were scary... but boy can she do some wild stuff for an 84 year old! :bow:Okay, I did managed to wait 'til my coworkers are gone for the day...

MY, MY....GRANDMA!!! What nice split you have!!! 8O 8O 8O There's probably lots of practice that was done prior to that... and no one in particular was paying much attention to Coldplay playing in the background, which was just as weird...

doubletoe

10-02-2006, 07:53 PM

I have to say, I love Coldplay even MORE now. :)

Chico

10-02-2006, 10:01 PM

skatingintheclouds, I dream about doing perfect axels in my dreams all the time. Maybe we'll be at the same rink in our dreams some time axeling our brains out. =-)

Chico

SkatingOnClouds

10-03-2006, 02:54 AM

There have been some wonderfully different points of view here, and it has helped me a lot.

Dianne, I am sorry if this thread has made you uncomfortable. Obviously you are not upset by what your coach said, and that is important. I have realised that this is all about my attitude, my fears.

I don't consider my age when I skate, most of the time I forget my age - unless coach asks for more knee bend, and then I want to say I am 47 years old, my knees don't bend more than this.

But the replies on this thread have helped me realise that what I want to achieve is possible because I want it, I am prepared to work for it, and I believe in it. And that it is okay to let my coach slow me down and make me work on the basics that need fixing otherwise they'll hold me back.

More power to all the "older" skaters out there pushing on regardless. I think this forum is full of amazing people.

Rusty Blades

10-03-2006, 04:40 AM

Dianne, I am sorry if this thread has made you uncomfortable.

No problem. as you say, there are a lot of good points to ponder. (But I wont even consider changing coaches - LOL!)

I don't consider my age when I skate, most of the time I forget my age - unless coach asks for more knee bend, and then I want to say I am 47 years old, my knees don't bend more than this.

Nor do I think about age - I'm still 16, right?

As to the age excuse, that doesn't work on my coach. When I tried that, she gives me off-ice exercises to improve the flex, turn-out, or whatever. I learned it's smarter to just skip the excuse and keep working at it rather than getting more "homework"!

More power to all the "older" skaters out there pushing on regardless. I think this forum is full of amazing people.

INDEED!

samba

10-03-2006, 10:46 AM

The video just made me weep, this lady is fantastic!!

lovepairs

10-03-2006, 12:34 PM

dbny

10-03-2006, 03:59 PM

"Limitations" are only in your head. With good nutrition, proper rest, plenty of excersize, and lots of love, we no longer have to embrace limitations anymore. The old paradigm of retiring at 65 turning into a coach potatoes, or an old stooped over lady, or an old wrinkly man doesn't have to apply anymore if you choose not to take that path. No matter what the age, people shouldn't place limitations on one another, but rather encourage each other to go as far as we can, and, especially, our coaches. Get rid of the negativity surrounding you, and you will see how far you can go, and all of the wonderful things that you can achieve!

The ice is the Fountain of Youth...albeit Frozen! :P

This is not entirely true. Here is a brief quotation from a recent NY Times article titled "Baby Boomers Stay Active, and So Do Their Doctors (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/16/sports/16boomers.html?ex=1160020800&en=874ee3929e744a12&ei=5070)":

"Boomers are the first generation that grew up exercising, and the first that expects, indeed demands, that they be able to exercise into their 70's," said Dr. Nicholas A. DiNubile, a Philadelphia-area orthopedic surgeon, who coined and trademarked the term boomeritis.

"But evolution doesn't work that quick. Physically, you can't necessarily do at 50 what you did at 25. We've worn out the warranty on some body parts. That's why so many boomers are breaking down. It ought to be called Generation Ouch."

You have to sign in to read the entire article, and you may have to be a subscriber or have paid for premium access. LMK if anyone wants to see more of it.

doubletoe

10-03-2006, 04:14 PM

[QUOTE=dbny]
"Boomers are the first generation that grew up exercising, and the first that expects, indeed demands, that they be able to exercise into their 70's," said Dr. Nicholas A. DiNubile, a Philadelphia-area orthopedic surgeon, who coined and trademarked the term boomeritis.

"But evolution doesn't work that quick. Physically, you can't necessarily do at 50 what you did at 25. We've worn out the warranty on some body parts. That's why so many boomers are breaking down. It ought to be called Generation Ouch."

That's true. Just like there are only so many miles you can put on the transmission in your car before it breaks down, there are only so many moments of impact that each joint can absorb over a lifetime. That's why Tara Lipinski had to have hip replacement at 19 and Rudy Galindo has had to have both hips replaced at a relatively young age as well. So it's not so much a matter of age as it is a matter of mileage.
On the bright side, we should still be able to stretch and maintain/regain flexibility. Also, those of us who did not skate growing up probably have more skating years ahead of us because we haven't worn out our joints yet! (I'd like to think so, anyway). We just need to use good technique and not waste our jump (or sitspin) attempts on the ones we're going to mess up on. ;)

skateflo

10-03-2006, 04:48 PM

I've enjoyed this thread very much in spite of it wandering some from the original post......

We all have various levels of committment both for on-ice and off-ice practice to be the best we can. "Life" does get in the way in spite of our best intentions. Jobs and family and home responsibilities must be factored in. Sure, I would love to do off-ice exercising everyday but I go through times when I plane just don't feel like it. I truly admire those people who really dedicate themselves to the 'full' program to maximize their skating.

And body breakdowns do occur - I have spent more time off the ice in the past 3 years than at any other time. But my desire to get back on the ice is still there. It did wane quite a bit this past year after a bad back injury and I wondered if it was time to call it quits.....yet I keep monitoring various message groups and find I just can't quit now. My ortho MD says no jumping as I already have fissures in my femur (landing leg) and things looked quite poorly during last year's arthoscopy. And the back surgeon doesn't want me torquing, nor the ortho MD because of the big shoulder repair he did also. How can I skate without rotating or doing my simple single jumps!!! I have no interest in dance.

I regret that I was not more dedicated to my skating the first 6-7 years. I just didn't put in enough practice time, especially since I am not a 'natural.' We all go through plateaus both on the ice and off. As I turn 60 in December, I still think I can reach some of my goals and just enjoy skating for the challenge and exercise. I am NOT ready to throw in the towel due to age or body breakdowns. I'm getting used to these bumps in the road toward maturity....but it doesn't mean I like them! I do know my old coach would take me back in a heartbeat if and when I am back on the ice regularly. She enjoyed teaching adults and never made me feel that she was making allowances for my age or lack of natural talent. Her patience kept me going when others would have said 'forget it lady.'

skaternum

10-03-2006, 05:04 PM

It never ceases to amaze me how some people are willing to overlook blatant obvious physical facts. Not everyone can be a great skater. Not everyone can get an axel. The body changes as it ages -- and most of it for the worse. I don't understand what's so awful about admitting these things. There's a difference between positivism and delusion.

As a skater, I'm very positive about my skating. I skate as much as my body can tolerate, am focused, highly motivated, and believe I will land that axel and the doubles I've been chasing. But I'm not so delusional as to think that having the right attitude and working "smarter" with my body is going to keep it from deteriorating. The rest of my joints are going to lose cartilage. I will lose muscle mass at some point. And if I'm not careful (and maybe even if I am), I'm going to have bone density issues once I go through menopause.

I ask again, what is so wrong about acknowledging this? It doesn't make me abandon all hope of an axel. It doesn't make me decide to work less hard. And it certainly doesn't make me stop trying to compensate for the physical deterioriation. But what is so wrong about acknowledging it?

Somebody stop me before I bust into a chorus of "I'm Every Woman" or "Reach." :roll:

crayonskater

10-03-2006, 05:04 PM

I think everyone in this thread is a little bit right. Most adults can go further than they think they can, and most adults have physical limitations that their younger selves didn't, even without factoring in time, money, and other obligations.

I'm only 27, and I can see a difference. When I was 15 and dancing, I could jump and land a split cold, no warm up, no split training. At 27, it doesn't happen. Doesn't mean I can't be flexible, it just takes more effort.

The real problem in my case is that I'm beginning to suspect I don't have any skating talent.

lovepairs

10-03-2006, 05:15 PM

""But evolution doesn't work that quick. Physically, you can't necessarily do at 50 what you did at 25. We've worn out the warranty on some body parts. That's why so many boomers are breaking down. It ought to be called Generation Ouch."

Actually, I'm doing way more at 50 then I did at 25, because I'm in way better shape now due to good nutrition and excersize. I really don't by into this at all, and think it is an unfortunate "mind set," and nothing more or less.

I'm not trying to be "Polly Anna" about this either. The mind and body work together. In otherwords, you do what you are able to do at whatever age, and do it to the best of your desire. It's really not as simple as "oh, I'm growing old, therefore my body is breaking down like an old car, too bad, now I can't do what I really want to do anymore." It's all how you choose to look at it...it's either half full, or half empty...seeing the boomers as "breaking down" is a real negative mind set and seeing the glass as half empty. You can just as easily choose to see it as half full, and say "Wow, the boomers look more in shape, and are aging very differently then our grandparents did." Hmm, they don't look as old as our grandparents did at that age (at least the boomers who choose to take care of themselves.) Hmm, I wonder why? Because they are approaching aging with a positive rather than a negative mind set, and they are the first generation that has excersized and some of them have even given some serious thought to what they are eating, too. Why do you think there is even such a phenomenon as "Adult Skating?" Because it is US not willing to give in and taking far better care of our "cars." Every so often, you see some of those antique cars on the roadway...because, their owners take care of them and maintain them...so, they still go places.

Oleg Protopopov said this to me recently "I reached a point in my life where I looked at my friends, who were deteriorating and their bodies were breaking down. At that moment, I decided I can either walk the path to the cemetery, or I could take the path back to the ice." He and his wife, Ludmila are in the early 70's and train on the ice 5 hours per day. They are a beautiful example of what it looks like to age healthy, robustly, and never give up on life. It's just a choice. Nothing is obvious and nothing is blatent. It is what you choose to do, how you choose to think, and the path you choose to take--either the ice, or the cemetery.

And by the way, Skaternum, you are a beautiful skater and definitely will have your axel and have doubles. Just don't get caught in the trap of thinking you are too old to have them, and you will have them. I'm going to have them, too!

Skittl1321

10-03-2006, 05:18 PM

"Limitations" are only in your head. With good nutrition, proper rest, plenty of excersize, and lots of love, we no longer have to embrace limitations anymore.

I too have to disagree with this. I probably could have gone a lot further as a child then I will ever be able to go as an adult. And I, like many others, realize that my biggest limitation is fear. But my fear is based in an incredibly serious injury I had as a teenager and wish never to repeat. To some extent, it is also a limiting factor physically- due to loss of range of motion, and due to the injuries I could potentially cause myself more easily than others can.

If I had skated as a child I would not have had to deal with the fear caused by breaking my neck. I would not have to limit my activity to make sure that I do not further damage my spinal cord. But now, because I have lived my life, this injury has happened, and I have to adjust my activities accordingly.

I'm still skating. I know I could seriously injure myself, but at the stage I am skating at now, I think the chance of me hurting myself is about the same as that of other skaters. As I progress in skating there may be a point where my physical condition requires that I stop- maybe stop skating, maybe stop doing whatever is causing undue stress on my body. It is a definetly a limitation. There is nothing I can do now to unfuse my bones, heal the hole in my spinal cord and pretend it never happened. A good diet, rest and exercise won't help.

dbny

10-03-2006, 05:33 PM

It never ceases to amaze me how some people are willing to overlook blatant obvious physical facts. ... There's a difference between positivism and delusion.

And those who are delusional, will have their eyes opened by a collision with reality sooner or later.

Rusty Blades

10-03-2006, 05:35 PM

you do what you are able to do at whatever age, and do it to the best of your desire

If you change the last word to "ability" I will agree with you 100%!

I left skating 36 years ago after I wrecked and did serious injury to both my knees (in the days before "sports medicine"). I spent many months on crutches and nearly two decades with knee problems. There was undoubtedly damage done that can never be repaired.

Nine months into my "return to skating" my knees haven't given me any trouble but the LAST thing I attempt will be jumps because, if the knee problems come back, it could take me off the ice and I don't want that. If anything gets to the knees, it would probably be jumps (because of the impact and strain) but I would rather be an "Artistic" skater and do Skills than to push too far into Freeskate and loose it all again. I am listening to my body because I want to skate to a ripe old age.

(Did I just say that? The crazy woman who is skating with a sprained ankle???)

lovepairs

10-03-2006, 05:41 PM

Skitt,

Sorry to hear about your injury. It sounds very serious. I never meant to imply that just excersise, rest, and good nutrition would cure a serious injury. However, it seems to be something that you are working with, because you continue to desire to skate. In fact, you are a perfect example of a person who thinks "positively" and does what they can do, the best that they can do it, regardless of what happened. I'm not implying that everything has to be perfect. All I'm saying it that the way we think and approach things (including fear) is a very powerful tool! All things being equal (meaning each and everyone of us, including kid skaters, has something chronic, or problematic that we live with. I certainly do, too) aging doesn't necessarily have to be seen as a "limitation." That's all.

By the way, DBNY, I've had plenty of serious injuries from skating, several that have landed me in the emergancy ward and physical therapy. I choose to continue to skate and not to be afraid of it. Thanks for the well wishes.

dbny

10-03-2006, 05:53 PM

Thanks for the well wishes. :lol: :lol: :lol:

I'm sorry to hear you've been injured skating, and I most certainly am not wishing more injuries on you.

I haven't read anything here that I would describe as negative thinking, so I don't get why you are preaching against it.

In addition to obvious physical differences, there are differences in how much pain can be tolerated and how much stress or fear, so the fact that you are still unafraid is wonderful, but does not mean that anyone else in your place would, could, or even should be. I've never had anasthetic of any kind for dental fillings, and not even for a crown. The pain just doesn't get to me enough to warrant taking a drug for it. I happen to be more talented in enduring dental work than I am in dealing with prospective injuries on the ice. So what! I'm not saying just get over your negative thinking and you too can have dental work without anasthetic. How foolish does that sound? Yet, what you and some others are saying about your approach to ice skating is the equivalent.

dbny

10-03-2006, 06:05 PM

....oops... posted instead of adding via edit to previous post.

doubletoe

10-03-2006, 06:37 PM

Looking at everyone's input on both sides of the argument, I'm thinking we might all be able to agree on two things:
1. We can continue to improve our skating skills in one way or another as we get older, especially if we train smarter, rather than harder.
2. While it is true that our bodies eventually wear out and our ability to perform certain physical feats diminishes with age, there is no one pre-set limitation that fits every adult skater. While there is a limit for every person, you won't know what it is until you get there. Placing a set limitation on an adult skater could limit his/her ability to reach his/her actual potential, whatever that may be.

If I were in denial about the amount of abuse my 41-year old body could take, I would still be flinging myself in the air with abandon on every jump and sit-spinning all the cartilage out of my knees rather than limiting the number of sitspins I do per week. On the other hand, if I'd bought into "conventional wisdom," I would never have taken up figure skating at 27 and I certainly never would tried to land my first double salchow and double toeloop just shy of 40. I am expecting to land my first double loop at 41 or 42, and there's no physical reason why I shouldn't be able to. Having said that, I don't intend to ever beat up my body to the extent I see the kids beating up theirs trying to master the double axel, so I'll never find out if I'd be able to land my first one in my 40's or not! But that's just me. :roll:

dbny

10-03-2006, 06:38 PM

Skittl1321

10-03-2006, 07:06 PM

I never meant to imply that just excersise, rest, and good nutrition would cure a serious injury.

I know that's not what you're implying- but I happen to have a very extreme case that can be used as an example. (And as serious as it is, I was very very lucky, and I know that everyday). But the thing is, even the small things "my knees aren't what they used to be" are limitations.

Skaters can, and should- try to do everything they personally can. But I think it's silly to think that with all the work, coaching, and time in the world everyone could be doing triple axels.

I do agree, however, that people need to leave excess fear at the rink door. A little fear keeps you from doing stupid things, too much keeps you from doing anything!

lovepairs

10-03-2006, 07:47 PM

I think the title of this thread is "Older Skaters and Limitations." I'd much prefer to see our "limitations" as "challenges," meaning something that we ALL deal with and have to work through (again, including the kids.) About age, well, it's really just a number. I feel in many ways a lot "younger" now then it did when I was "younger." I'm 50 and don't regard myself as old, or limited. So, back to the original poster; if I had a coach that told me "sorry dear, but you're too old and your car is starting to breaking down," well, I'd go find another coach. That's all.

skaternum

10-03-2006, 08:01 PM

And by the way, Skaternum, you are a beautiful skater and definitely will have your axel and have doubles. Just don't get caught in the trap of thinking you are too old to have them, and you will have them. I'm going to have them, too!Thanks for the compliment, lovepairs. But at the risk of sounding persnickity, I'm a little miffed at the admonition. I'm perfectly confident in my abilities on the ice. That's the whole point I was trying to make. I don't need a bunch of sunshine positivism to motivate me, and I'm not afraid to acknowledge my physical limitations. I've spent most of my life either dancing or skating, and I'm more in tune with my body than most people, I think. What I see as realism, you see as defeatism. What I see as delusion, you see as positivism. Guess we just don't see things the same way. :giveup:

slusher

10-03-2006, 08:30 PM

I started skating around age 40. I was very competitive in another sport in my teens and twenties. In that sport I will never be anywhere near that competitive level again and it pains me. Pains me so that I don't even participate in that sport recreationally. If people ask me to go play, I say that I don't know how, sorry. If I can't go full out, I don't want it and have completely walked away. I can understand how Rusty Blades feels, because if I went back to that sport and my brain image didn't match what my body was doing, I'd be hugely angry.

I bring that mental focus and years of training to skating but am well aware of the limitations of my body. There are injuries that prevent me from doing some things. No, let me restate that. I have injuries and damaged joints that do not stop me from doing everything, but if I choose to throw myself around the rink in search of an axel, I could probably do an axel, but it would be at the expense of further injury. So, I don't believe that I will do an axel because I have chosen another path that will permit me to skate until I'm dead instead of being in a wheelchair. If a coach said that I didn't have the body of a 16 year old, I'd totally agree, because I don't. But for a woman nudging up to 50, I'm pretty good.

I also can't go to keg parties and drink all night then go to school the next day like I did at age 18. Somehow that ability has disappeared also. :P

Award

10-03-2006, 09:03 PM

doubletoe

10-03-2006, 09:09 PM

I'd be interested to look at some stats on age and skating skills. Like, the record age for guys and girls for doing triples. That is, oldest guy that does triples, and oldest girl that does triples. Also, oldest guy and oldest girl that does quads.

Doing a jump at a certain age is very different from learning that jump for the first time at that age, KWIM? I suspect that the number of injuries a skater tends to accumulate on the way to mastering a jump is what really takes its toll on the body, rather than continuing to do a jump you already mastered at a younger age.

Award

10-03-2006, 09:45 PM

Doing a jump at a certain age is very different from learning that jump for the first time at that age, KWIM? I suspect that the number of injuries a skater tends to accumulate on the way to mastering a jump is what really takes its toll on the body, rather than continuing to do a jump you already mastered at a younger age.

That's definitely true. With aging, and accumulated wear and tear, there definitely will be a stage where things take a turn. It's important to know when to stop pushing too hard on the body. Yah....injuries and recovery time is a problem here.

Rob Dean

10-04-2006, 07:10 AM

I don't know whether I really ought to put my two cents in or not, but here it goes:

After doing some pond skating when I was a kid, I got into this along with my son about 2 1/2 years ago after 20+ years off the ice. I'm now 45. My main motivations were to find something that would be fun and count as exercise, and to spend more time with #2 son. Viewed in that light, the whole thing has been a success beyond my wildest dreams. I'm down nearly 60 pounds, and have been holding that weight for the better part of a year now. That puts me in the normal range after being overweight for many years, and at the lowest sustained weight I've been at since I was in high school. #2 son and I have spent a lot of time together, and he's not embarrassed to be on the ice with me. :lol:

I'm probably in better shape now that I have ever been as an adult. Skating has given me legs that also allow me to view 60 miles on a bicycle at 15 mph as no big deal.

I don't progress at the rate that I'd like to in skating (who does?), but I can see that I am progressing. This week I'm a bit frustrated as I'm working on the pre-bronze moves seriously again, but my coach is pushing as she should be. I have revised my goals several times already in the 2+ years I've been at this, and I am now reluctant to attempt to guess where the limits of progress might be found. I know they are there, but I also know that they are somewhere beyond where I am now. (Of course, on one level deciding to aim at dance rather than freestyle is an acceptance of a limitation.)

So, does that put me in the defeatist camp, or the delusional?:??

Rob Dean

Skate@Delaware

10-04-2006, 10:16 AM

Rob Dean, Dance can be just as dangerous as freestyle (if not more)!!! Do you see how close those skates are to each other? And how quick those moves have to be? I cringe when my dance coach asks me to do a move quicker and with neater (i.e. closer) feet. Then she pairs us up 8O

So, is that defeatist? No. Delusional? No. Not in my book.

Congrats on your weight loss and increase in endurance!!!!

phoenix

10-04-2006, 10:24 AM

(Of course, on one level deciding to aim at dance rather than freestyle is an acceptance of a limitation.)

Rob Dean

**deeply offended dancer here**

Dance done to a high level is very physically demanding, just in a different way than freestyle. You don't have the pounding on your body from jump landings. But the strength & flexibility required to hold a deep knee bend with nice extension on deep edges at insane speed is surprising. I've also taken much worse falls in dance than in freestyle.

samba

10-04-2006, 10:57 AM

I agree with Rob, the constant pounding that your back and the rest of your body takes every time you land a jump not the mention fall, is going to wear your body down a lot more quickly than the odd nasty fall taken in dance, I do both and I know which causes my body the most grief, after being signed off work, I have been advised that it might be a good idea to stick to the dance, as its still wonderful for stamina, ok its still dangerous but in the long term far less wearing on a 57 year old bod. Can't promise I will take the advice though.

Skate@Delaware

10-04-2006, 11:07 AM

I don't know about that....the worst fall I had was in ice dance class doing a back progressive!!!!!

I caught the heel of my blade and fell backwards-flat on my sacrum and shoulders; narrowly missed hitting my head. You could hear the "thunk" all over the rink! I saw stars and it knocked my breath out. I lay on the ice trying to move and catch my breath for what seemed like forever.

After several trips to the chiropractor I was ok but it was a long time before I got the courage to do another back progressive; and I had to do it holding on...the fear monster had me in it's grip! I'm ok with them now, but that accident is always in the back of my mind and I think it still holds me back a bit.

I've fallen doing flips and other jumps and they don't frighten me re-doing them as much as that.

doubletoe

10-04-2006, 11:58 AM

Oooohhh Yeeeaahhh. . . My worst falls have been catching my blades while trying to do steps or edges, so I have the utmost respect for ice dancers! :bow: They risk not only catching their blades in the ice but catching their blades on someone else's blades! Yikes! 8O

Emberchyld

10-04-2006, 12:28 PM

I think what my teacher/coach said to me the other day fits--

He was saying that eventually I'd pull off an axel-- and I just made a face, since I know that I have a LOOOOOOOONG LONG way to go before I get to that point. And then he said (paraphrased, since I can't remember his exact words):

"Nothing is impossible... well, you just need reality. I mean, I want a porche and I want the space shuttle. I won't be getting a space shuttle, but I can get the porche. An axel for you is like that. You will probably never get a triple axel, starting at this age, but you will get the axel."

And you know what? I thought that was a great approach. As adults, we have our limitations, and maybe we'll never be like the elite kids, but the skills that we can aquire are still incredible if you really look at what we face.

Seriously, to people who can't even keep upright on skates and clutch the walls during public sessions, crossovers and 3-turns and 2-footed spins must look totally impossible. Whereas, they've finally started going from being Porches to Hyundais for me and most of us :D

jazzpants

10-04-2006, 01:22 PM

I sympathize with both samba and the ice dancers. I've limited my jumping practice and don't do off ice jumps practices just so I don't screw up my lower back. Just not enough (if any) cushion left on the lower back.

But my worst falls are all from doing edge and moves work. (Okay, mostly the collisions with other skaters... :oops: ) And I'm pretty sure my ice dancer guy has gone thru his share of nasty falls and crashes on the ice.

cecealias

10-04-2006, 01:58 PM

I'm on the fence on worst falls... Probably the worst fall i've ever had was from nearly a standstill and tripping over a blade trying to hockey stop. That was when i was in learn to skate classes and i broke my ankle then. That was a freak fall where i injured myself badly because i tried to *stop myself* from falling. It was a big lesson - if you're gonna fall, FALL. don't try to stop it or else you'll injure yourself even more.

Since i've started seriously figure skating ( and by serious i mean taking private lessons and showing up at freestyle practice several times a week ) I have never broken anything, and even working on double jumps I feel are much safer than working on new moves really fast without any control. The stronger my edge control gets, the easier and more secure i feel when i launch myself into jumps at fast speeds. people think i'm nuts for spending hundreds of hours on moves in the field, but when you're fully grown and not a stick thin teen, i know i need all the help i can get controlling the edges so that i can move my body around safely. You know, it's just Newton's law - Force = mass x acceleration. The more mass you have the more force it takes to control (+/-) the accleration.

If we're talking about worst bruise, i'd say the worst bruises and falls are from the unexpected edges getting caught falls, when you're tired or least expecting it and suddently go down. Things like clicking your blades on crossovers at high speed or doing brackets and not being over your hip will throw you to the ice with almost no notice. I've had a few bad falls from learning jumps and spins when i first started working on them but as always that's because i forgot to do what my coach was telling me to do.

These days if i feel like i'm going to fall, i just let go and i don't care what people think. so what. you mentally "let go" on the way down then get up as fast as you can. it just hurts less.

Rob Dean

10-04-2006, 02:57 PM

But the strength & flexibility required to hold a deep knee bend with nice extension on deep edges at insane speed is surprising.

No disagreement on that; although I'm not there yet (which was also a topic of last night's lesson). I also recognize that dance is scarcely risk free, but, for me, the fear associated with those risks is more manageable than the fear associated with jumping. So, while I didn't intend to be offensive, at least for me, it is an acceptance of some limits.

Rob

Award

10-04-2006, 04:28 PM

These days if i feel like i'm going to fall, i just let go and i don't care what people think. so what. you mentally "let go" on the way down then get up as fast as you can. it just hurts less.

The other people watching you fall usually have short memories anyway. And most of them have fallen before...probably many times themselves, so that's why they forget, or hardly make anything of it, because it's not uncommon or unusual for people to fall sometimes.

Sonic

10-04-2006, 05:05 PM

With regards to falls - it's definitely the ones that take you by surprise like when you lose an edge or toepick yourself that are the worst - I guess it's because the fall is unexpected so you tense up.

I must have fallen about 7 times on Monday (in an hour, which is a big brave thing for me), I was working on flips and loops and view it as a good sign - it was because I was getting some power into the jumps. Yet I didn't really hurt myself at all, it was like I could feel I was off balance, knew I wasn't going to land on my feet and just relaxed.

With regards to limitations - sometimes you can surprise yourself.
When I stepped back on the ice after an 18 year break, I wondered how I ever lifted both feet off the ground, never mind had an Axel!

Yet, somehow, 9 months later I'm doing flips. I doubt whether I'll ever get an Axel again BUT for someone who didn't think she even get singles back, I guess it's not bad.....

S xx

SkatingOnClouds

10-05-2006, 03:22 AM

It never ceases to amaze me how some people are willing to overlook blatant obvious physical facts. Not everyone can be a great skater. Not everyone can get an axel. The body changes as it ages -- and most of it for the worse. I don't understand what's so awful about admitting these things. There's a difference between positivism and delusion.

You are so right. As I said before, I have realised that what pushed my buttons about what Dianne's coach said was really about my own fears.

I am coming to accept it is okay to admit that my body can't do what it used to. That I need to work within physical limitations while working to reduce the limitation. It doesn't mean I won't achieve what I want to achieve, just that I have to be sensible about working toward my goals.

I firmly believe in not placing limitations on myself by setting some ultimate goal. I will achieve being the best skater I can be, whatever that ends up being.

BatikatII

10-05-2006, 08:29 AM

Yet, somehow, 9 months later I'm doing flips. I doubt whether I'll ever get an Axel again BUT for someone who didn't think she even get singles back, I guess it's not bad.....

S xx

Sonic - Did you watch the level 3-5 ladies group (age category 2) at Lee Valley last weekend? My friend who only started learning to skate at age 30 (having never skated before ) landed 2 axels in the warm-up (even if she didn't quite manage it in the competition itself). If you've had an axel before you will definitely be able to get one again.:D In the men's competition at least one of the guys had an axel that he first acquired in his late 50's and he had the most amazing sit spin ever (and he is over 60 now).

I started at 38 having been on the ice only a couple of times in my life, ever and did dance only for a few years. After switching to Free (compulsory dance bores me rigid unless with a partner and we have no men at our rink) I now have all my singles up to Flip and am working on Lutz and have every intention of one day trying for an axel - despite being overweight and unfit and having back and knee problems! I didn't compete (at adult championships) this year because of a back injury in the summer but last year I won bronze at elementary (level 1 & 2) (35- 50 years). There's no reason why you couldn't achieve axel and doubles - barring injury of course.

Having done both and competed in both, I would have to say ice dance is 'easier' to do than Free although it is hard to do well. They are very different animals but with ice dance you can do the low level dances and enjoy them without necessarily doing them very well, whereas with Free to do even a low level competition you need to have the jumps and it is a lot more scary having to leave the ice with both feet!:lol:

I am definitely a much better skater than I was when I was a child - since I never skated as a child! As far as whether you can be a better skater than when you were a chld I guess it all depends how good a skater you were then. If just a recreational skater then there is no doubt you can improve on that as an adult but if you were a kid skater with axels and doubles/triples then coming back many years later it is probably unlikley that you can get back to that same level as you will probably have less time to spend skatig and all sorts of body issues to deal with (flexibility, injury, weight etc). You'll still likely be a much better skater than anyone who did not start as a child (given similar time and training).

sk8_4fun

10-05-2006, 10:17 AM

for me, I feel Its all academic. By definition, as an adult learner, I'll never know what I could have achieved if i'd started 30 years ago. I have nothing to compare it to, so every achievement is a bonus! My coach treats the adults the same as the kids, she assumes you can achieve anything!8O

Casey

10-05-2006, 01:34 PM

Ya know, I just have to disagree with this. Most people can go farther than they think, but everyone has limitations. I'm all for a positive attitude, but it is not a true statement that anybody can do anything.
And why not? I'm not saying I can go out and do an axel tomorrow, but if I really want to accomplish that I can, with time and effort. And so can you. If you don't want to or are setting yourself up to fail in advance that's another story entirely. I don't believe there are any limits that there aren't ways to work past with the right methods and time.

Granted, injuries, how we take care of ourselves, and priorities in life affect things, but I would much rather focus on what's possible if unlikely than the average.

I'm a bit of a hippacrite in that I don't always think as positively as I should, and it's most likely that I never will get an axel, but if I don't it will be because I didn't give it my all...not because I didn't start skating at 5.

Casey

10-05-2006, 01:36 PM

miraclegro

10-05-2006, 01:42 PM

I had a fantastic coach who moved away, but he never told me anything really negative, and pushed me on certain things, but also had a highly respectible awareness of safety and injury on my behalf. Because of that, i knew he wouldn't push me beyond what was safe for me at the time. That, to me is a bigger concern than any of the other. I still hold him in high regard because of that.

Sonic

10-05-2006, 01:43 PM

I was going through a period when I had "do-it-now-itis" because I was feeling my skating biological clock ticking away....I was afraid if I didn't hurry and test boom-boom-boom and do this, that, or the other thing, time would pass me by and I'd never get the chance again (I have health problems and sometimes I freak out because they can change your whole perspective on life in general). I've calmed down a bit from this. I'm still driven but I've become focused and driven to do certain things in a more timely manner.

I know exactly what you mean. I have a hard time with too much time passing...and a bad habit of thinking all is lost if I miss one time goal...

I know exactly what you mean. And if you've skated before, I think that feeling is even worse.

BatikatII - in answer to your post, no, unfortunately I missed the level 3-5 group. You may be right about the axel, but I'm putting that idea 'on ice' ('scuse the pun, lol!:) ) for a while. For the time being I'm just aiming to get decent single jumps - hopefully get Flip and Loop decent by end of November and start working on Lutz before the end of the year.

S xxx

Casey

10-05-2006, 02:13 PM

That's definitely true. With aging, and accumulated wear and tear, there definitely will be a stage where things take a turn. It's important to know when to stop pushing too hard on the body. Yah....injuries and recovery time is a problem here.
As a lot of guys I used to work with at the bottom rung of the ladder used to say, "work smart, not hard". We all have our issues and limits, but there's more than one way to skin a cat, and some ways are definitely easier. Sometimes the hardest part is conceiving them.

I can't think of many jumps I've ever landed skating that I'd consider hard (as in on the knees or whatever). But I was at a ballet class recently where the instructor was telling the class that they needed to take off and land in a plie (that is, with knees bending both to propel the jump up and to cushion the landing), so that it looked more graceful and was easier on the joints. I realized as some people had a really hard time with this that I've simply never considered not bending to distribute the impact of a jump landing...it's just something I do "naturally" (more likely, something I learned on my own without thinking too much about it).

We all have things that we pick up easily and other things that we're blind to until we really think about it or somebody points them out to us. If something is hurting or too hard, then I'm not saying continue trying the same way endlessly. But I do believe there's always a path to the goal - the tricky part is finding and following it.

Rusty Blades

10-05-2006, 02:33 PM

Probably the worst fall i've ever had was from nearly a standstill

No kidding! The worse fall (so far) was off a left forward spiral. I had held it almost the length of the ice and almost run out of speed when something caught my blade - straight down - SPLAT! - cracked a rib.

My really spectacular falls involve speed and usually don't hurt - like the day I was doing forward XOs and my coach was hollering "Faster! Faster!" I was WAY OVER and lost my edge when I was headed in her direction! The look of horror on her face was priceless as she thought she was about to become a grease spot on the boards! (I LIKE falling from XO's - my hip is so close to the ice that it isn't much of a fall, though I do become a dangerous projectile!)

cecealias

10-05-2006, 02:50 PM

ETA: I was going through a period when I had "do-it-now-itis" because I was feeling my skating biological clock ticking away....I was afraid if I didn't hurry and test boom-boom-boom and do this, that, or the other thing, time would pass me by and I'd never get the chance again

Oh gawd... you took the words straight out of my mouth :roll: I went through a period of that in my later 20s, and took a slew of tests because i was afraid of the very same thing.

But after getting past the fundamentals, I believed in myself and my capabilities more - the past few years, i've totally changed perspective and i'm not as gung-ho about "have to get it now" ... and skating is a lot more fun that way. Its not like i'm learning any slower either.:lol:

skaternum

10-05-2006, 03:11 PM

In reference to my statement that not everybody can do anything ...And why not? A couple of reasons.

1. To be blunt, because some people suck at skating. There. I said it. Some people just suck, and no amount of time or effort or smart training is going to change that.

2. Some people will have physical restrictions and no amount of time or effort or smart training is going to change that.

And by the way, some people assume from my comments that I am negative about my own skating and that I think I won't get an axel (or whatever the lofty goal of example is). For the record, I do not suck. I will have an axel. I am not "down" on my skating, or even adult skating in general. Most adult competitors who know me know that I've been a strong advocate for adult skating for over a decade and have "recruited" and encouraged many adults in this sport. Just wanted to get that out there.

TimDavidSkate

10-05-2006, 03:22 PM

You are such a positive person! :roll:

In reference to my statement that not everybody can do anything ...A couple of reasons.

1. To be blunt, because some people suck at skating. There. I said it. Some people just suck, and no amount of time or effort or smart training is going to change that.

2. Some people will have physical restrictions and no amount of time or effort or smart training is going to change that.

And by the way, some people assume from my comments that I am negative about my own skating and that I think I won't get an axel (or whatever the lofty goal of example is). For the record, I do not suck. I will have an axel. I am not "down" on my skating, or even adult skating in general. Most adult competitors who know me know that I've been a strong advocate for adult skating for over a decade and have "recruited" and encouraged many adults in this sport. Just wanted to get that out there.

samba

10-05-2006, 03:31 PM

Wow, this forum is so entertaining!!

Sonic

10-05-2006, 03:34 PM

In reference to my statement that not everybody can do anything ...A couple of reasons.

1. To be blunt, because some people suck at skating. There. I said it. Some people just suck, and no amount of time or effort or smart training is going to change that.

2. Some people will have physical restrictions and no amount of time or effort or smart training is going to change that.

This may seem negative, but I have to say I agree to a certain extent. Me, for example: I will become a mediocre to fairly good skater, but will never be a very good or a great skater. Bottom line is, I simply do not have the athletic ability, am too unfit (though I'm working on that), and I am not very agile.

Still, most of the time I have the right attitude of mind, I try hard to think positive. And that's half the battle. Like I said before, I reckon skating is maybe 5% natural talent but 95% hard work.

When it comes down to it, the majority of the world's population can't skate at all, so there's something to be said for very fact we're all out there giving it a go in the first place.

S xxx

Sonic

10-05-2006, 03:35 PM

Wow, this forum is so entertaining!!
lol! :lol: Beats Eastenders hands down, wouldn't you agree Samba?;)

S xxx

skaternum

10-05-2006, 04:04 PM

You are such a positive person! :roll:Says the man who neg reps just about every post I make on another skating forum. Puhleeeze. :roll:

TimDavidSkate

10-05-2006, 06:05 PM

Oh I thought those were positives :halo: oops

Says the man who neg reps just about every post I make on another skating forum. Puhleeeze. :roll:

Terri C

10-05-2006, 06:58 PM

Award

10-05-2006, 07:03 PM

lol! :lol: Beats Eastenders hands down, wouldn't you agree Samba?;)

S xxx

That's the BBC show with the music. Yes...the music hehe

doubletoe

10-05-2006, 07:14 PM

Chiming in here with a little anedote from my lesson yesterday.
Working on Bronze moves with my coach, she commented that she is concerned that I don't have enough power on the power three turns.
I told her that if the judges are expecting me ( a 41 year old woman) to do power threes with the power of a 11 year old, that is simply not going to happen.
Isn't this why we have Adult moves tests?

Oh, come on, we 41-year olds (that's me, too!) can muster WAY more power than a puny 11-year old! We may look less natural on the ice because we started as adults, but we have an advantage over those little kids when it comes to power! When I practice my power crossover circles (from the Adult Gold and Standard Intermediate tests), I have so much more power than the 11-year olds practicing the same move, i.e, I build up more speed and my circles cover a lot more ice surface with the same number of strokes. They should, too, since I'm 5'5" and have bigger muscles and longer legs than those little Biellmann-spinning, full split spiralling midgets. ;)
Getting power from your strokes and edges is really a matter of learning proper technique and practicing it, and I think those are the only reasons the kids ever skate with more "power" than we do. I didn't mean to get on a soapbox here, but our body size on MIF patterns is the only thing I DO think gives us an advantage as adults! :roll:

TimDavidSkate

10-05-2006, 07:44 PM

Getting power from your strokes and edges is really a matter of learning proper technique and practicing it

Amen :bow: I totally agree... I hated those times, but its so worth it.

looplover

10-05-2006, 07:44 PM

TimDavidSkate

10-05-2006, 07:49 PM

It's fear and self imposed limitations that are preventing it...

I agree on that as well... I wish I never :giveup: and got 8O on a lot of moves when I was a standard skater :frus: But everything happens for a reason

jazzpants

10-05-2006, 08:32 PM

Re: Power 3's... well, FWIW...

As I understand power 3's, one can draw power on the power 3's from the following area: 1) the step out to the BI edge, 2) the crossovers and 3) the push to the FO edge.

Now this is just MY experience but... I didn't pass my power 3's on my last test b/c I didn't do 3) well enough. I did improve on all three, but 1) and 2) was pretty much what saved me this time around. When I learned to adjust my torso on 3) so I'm facing where I'm pushing to, I felt more confident about bending my knees and use the entire blade to push into the FO edge.

I'm still practicing and trying to improve my power 3's now, but if even this wimpy 39 year old skater who's really out of shape can improve on power 3's to the point where the coaches agrees that it's my "most improved" move element on that test, I'm pretty sure anyone can. It'll take a LOT more time, I'l admit, but I'm living proof that it CAN happen!!!

They should, too, since I'm 5'5" and have bigger muscles and longer legs than those little Biellmann-spinning, full split spiralling midgets. ;) *chortle* (I wish I read this when I wasn't drinking water...) :lol:

Getting power from your strokes and edges is really a matter of learning proper technique and practicing it, and I think those are the only reasons the kids ever skate with more "power" than we do.I'm living proof of this, since I'm managed to improve on my forward stroking around the rink from being a whole length behind someone a couple of years ago to beat said skater by a half length in a year and a half's time! Of course, NOW I'm pitted against a lady who just passed Gold MIF on FORWARD CROSSOVERS around the middle hockey circle! GULP!!! 8O

doubletoe

10-05-2006, 09:26 PM

I'm living proof of this, since I'm managed to improve on my forward stroking around the rink from being a whole length behind someone a couple of years ago to beat said skater by a half length in a year and a half's time! Of course, NOW I'm pitted against a lady who just passed Gold MIF on FORWARD CROSSOVERS around the middle hockey circle! GULP!!! 8O

Hey, nothing says you can't start working on those power crossover circles now! I think they improved my skating more than any one move I've ever learned. I will probably do them as a warmup every session for the rest of my life (also a great way to clear out the middle of the rink to do your spins, ha ha!).

Chico

10-05-2006, 09:45 PM

jazzpants

10-06-2006, 12:48 AM

Hey, nothing says you can't start working on those power crossover circles now! I think they improved my skating more than any one move I've ever learned. I will probably do them as a warmup every session for the rest of my life (also a great way to clear out the middle of the rink to do your spins, ha ha!).LMAO!!! :lol: I did exactly that last Sunday at my Sunday public session!!! Admittedly, it scares the Bajevees outta me, mainly b/c I really have to force myself to bend my knees and I end up going even FASTER!!! But NONE of the rugrats or teenagers that were still skating tried to get thru the middle after that. Too bad I already did my spins and didn't want to do any more! :P

I've also never seen so many adults point at me and whisper "Did you see THAT!?!?!" ("WHAT!?!?! You never seen an adult doing power circles!?!?!" :roll: :twisted: :P :lol: )

Isk8NYC

10-06-2006, 04:24 AM

Gotta defend your turf, right?

skaternum

10-06-2006, 06:16 AM

Oh I thought those were positives :halo: oops
Nah, not gonna respond and lower myself to your level there.

TimDavidSkate

10-06-2006, 07:28 AM

Nah, not gonna respond and lower myself to your level there.
Well good morning to you Sunshine ;)

renatele

10-06-2006, 07:32 AM

Re: Power 3's... well, FWIW...

As I understand power 3's, one can draw power on the power 3's from the following area: 1) the step out to the BI edge, 2) the crossovers and 3) the push to the FO edge.

You missed one ;) I was also told to press into the BI edge after the FO-3, and draw power from that, too (being told to do and doing are two different things, though...).

Skate@Delaware

10-06-2006, 08:01 AM

Speaking of...they are thinking of changing the ISI testing standards for adults and completely lowering the bar. I don't like it one bit...
What???? What's this????? 8O Do tell!!!!

MusicSkateFan

10-06-2006, 08:13 AM

I was just skimming through and some of the posts made me chuckle!

This is a SPORT ladies and gents. To be competitive and successful at a SPORT you have to train and condition your body to be in shape. Some people may not have the athletic ability needed to be competitive. Some people just may not be cut out to be figure skaters(or competetive ones).

If you are serious about this SPORT, get serious about your training. Especially if you are older. Out of shape and older is not a good combo for skating. You need to have a high level of fitness if you are older to take the beating that competetive figure skating gives out!

Just a thought!

Skate@Delaware

10-06-2006, 08:17 AM

Isk8NYC

10-06-2006, 08:55 AM

Speaking of...they are thinking of changing the ISI testing standards for adults and completely lowering the bar. I don't like it one bit...They just (recently) changed the Synchro requirements to bring them more into line with the USFSA rules. I attended the ISI Conference in June and they didn't mention anything about Adults getting a separate track. I can't imagine them introducing another program requiring judge's certifications. They have difficulty getting judges for competitions as it is today.

The ISI did introduce the "WeSkate" program, which is essentially a cool repackaging of their existing test levels with no revisions.

Where did you heard about the ISI test levels for adults?

TimDavidSkate

10-06-2006, 09:05 AM

I'm running out of ideas of what to eat the 2-3 hours before I skate. I sometimes eat half of a pb&j on wholegrain bread; sometimes ham and cheese...I need something with protein & carbs but not too heavy (and nothing all dairy)...ideas?

General Tso's with Chicken wings and pork fried rice? :halo:

samba

10-06-2006, 09:50 AM

TimDavidSkate

10-06-2006, 10:15 AM

CHOCOLATE!! sorry that's all I ever think off.

I'm beginning to have that when I skate and replacing it from my usual red bull. Its nice and warm :P

Skate@Delaware

10-06-2006, 10:21 AM

If I had that, I'd crash and burn quickly 8O .....guess I should have mentioned that I'm also hypoglycemic....and running out of ideas for yummy foods...altho I like the idea of General Tso's chicken (just who was that guy anyway?)

samba

10-06-2006, 10:23 AM

I'm beginning to have that when I skate and replacing it from my usual red bull. Its nice and warm :P

Red Bull?? doesnt it make you gassy?

TimDavidSkate

10-06-2006, 10:24 AM

Red Bull?? doesnt it make you gassy?
nahs, it helps me focus and keep my adrenaline in control :halo:

Skate@Delaware

10-06-2006, 10:25 AM

Red Bull?? doesnt it make you gassy?
Maybe that can help either make you warmer, keep people away from you, or speed you up (putt, putt, putt):lol:

I think some people are goofing off today instead of working :halo:

TimDavidSkate

10-06-2006, 10:26 AM

Maybe that can help either make you warmer, keep people away from you, or speed you up (putt, putt, putt):lol:

I think some people are goofing off today instead of working :halo:

hahaha, yeh Im all done with my tasks today, so I just sit back, watch & download skating clips online for the rest of the day... and listen to music too

samba

10-06-2006, 10:29 AM

Maybe that can help either make you warmer, keep people away from you, or speed you up (putt, putt, putt):lol:

It did pass my mind!! lol

I think some people are goofing off today instead of working :halo:

I have been signed off with a bad back (very painful) so it's legal, what you doing?

Skate@Delaware

10-06-2006, 10:30 AM

Yeah, we are supposed to have this really big airshow this weekend...so today is "prepare for the really big airshow" day....and it's raining... my boss is off....know what I mean? I'm leaving early to skate!

Ah, the life of a government worker

ETA: the people I need to interact with are all helping with the airshow stuff...I'm not involved. Been there, done that. Every day I pass the wreckage of the crashed C-5 and think "thank you very much" (I used to fly on them)....I'm glad to be a civilian and on the ground.

Samba: I hope you start feeling better soon! It sucks to be down with a bad back!

samba

10-06-2006, 10:33 AM

Yeah, we are supposed to have this really big airshow this weekend...so today is "prepare for the really big airshow" day....and it's raining... my boss is off....know what I mean? I'm leaving early to skate!

Ah, the life of a government worker

Have fun skating tonight, hope the weather improves for the week-end. Wish I had a job as a government worker!!

Thanks for the good wishes.

Skate@Delaware

10-06-2006, 10:37 AM

Have fun skating tonight, hope the weather improves for the week-end. Wish I had a job as a government worker!!
Thanks!

It ain't all it's cracked up to be....It's like being a mom to 50+ people....listen to them whine, ##### and moan and hold their hand (again) and tell them what to do (again) etc. I'm a unit secretary and sometimes I get so tired of repeating myself and having them disrespect me because I'm a civilian....I remind them that I put their paperwork in for pay :twisted: so they'd better be nice!!!

But I work part-time so I can flex my hours so that part is nice, and I can go to the gym and work out during duty time. And my boss is nice (he is best friends with the husband of the skating director---suck up!!!!) That helps!!! But I'm not paid well as a secretary and no benefits. But I'm not complaining too much.

Isk8NYC

10-06-2006, 11:06 AM

I think some people are goofing off today instead of working :halo:Not that there's anything wrong with it...I didn't sleep well and it was raining when I woke up. So, I called in today and checked messages. I'm still waiting for some data to be delivered, so there was nothing pressing.

I have to go teach later and then pick the twins up from a "pseudo-sleepover." All the sleepover activities from 4-9pm, very nice compromise for little kids.

doubletoe

10-06-2006, 11:27 AM

nahs, it helps me focus and keep my adrenaline in control :halo:

When a stimulant actually relaxes you and helps you focus, doesn't that mean you must be ADD? :P
Like *I* should be talking, LOL!

Skate@Delaware

10-06-2006, 11:29 AM

When a stimulant actually relaxes you and helps you focus, doesn't that mean you must be ADD? :P
Like *I* should be talking, LOL!
I think that might apply to a bunch of us!!! I'm a big caffeine junkie!!! I really feel focused when I have my coffee/soda but have had to cut back :cry:

doubletoe

10-06-2006, 11:32 AM

It's funny thinking of myself as an ATHLETE!!! If you knew me waaaay back in high school you would have laughed...I was the one skipping gym!

I'm running out of ideas of what to eat the 2-3 hours before I skate. I sometimes eat half of a pb&j on wholegrain bread; sometimes ham and cheese...I need something with protein & carbs but not too heavy (and nothing all dairy)...ideas?

I'm a little unusual because I pretty much live on Japanese food, but before a competition I always eat rice balls because rice doesn't make me feel bloated the way wheat does (that seems to be a common phenomenon with wheat gluten and bloating), but rice provides great energy. I also bring a banana for snacking on about half an hour before skating. It's the perfect natural energy boost that's also easy on the stomach. :) Chicken is good for protein and chicken is also easy on the stomach as long as it isn't fried.

jazzpants

10-06-2006, 11:45 AM

You missed one ;) I was also told to press into the BI edge after the FO-3, and draw power from that, too (being told to do and doing are two different things, though...).I probably should have split up 2) on the back crossovers. The scrull on your BI edge into a back crossover is half of the power generated. The push underneath is the other part of the back crossover. (I put them together b/c to me it comes off as one big movement done simultaneously

Other funny thing, you're supposed to do this on ALL your back crossovers! (But do *I* do that???) :oops: :halo: ;)

Rusty Blades

10-06-2006, 11:46 AM

I think that might apply to a bunch of us!!! I'm a big caffeine junkie!!! I really feel focused when I have my coffee/soda but have had to cut back :cry:

Coffee??? Did somebody say COFFEE! 8O :D I had been taking fruit juice to the rink (just 'cause it seemed like a more healthy choice) but, for those days when I am up at 4:30 (a.m.) and skate 7 to 9 p.m., I think I might switch to coffee! I used to pack a chocolate bar but my doc says my blood sugar is creeping up so I guess I need to give up the food of the angles :cry:

Since I usually eat very little until supper time, I find a burger and fries is just about right on skating night if I eat a bit early. (Ok, I admit, burger and fries ranks just below chocolate!)

TimDavidSkate

10-06-2006, 11:46 AM

Maybe 8-) I never got diagnosed, funny, its what I do, working with kids that have Learning Disabilities, ADD, OCD, ED.

When a stimulant actually relaxes you and helps you focus, doesn't that mean you must be ADD? :P
Like *I* should be talking, LOL!

jazzpants

10-06-2006, 11:56 AM

I think that might apply to a bunch of us!!! I'm a big caffeine junkie!!! I really feel focused when I have my coffee/soda but have had to cut back :cry:Me too! Then again, these days even the coffee isn't helping me any to keep alert and focus. I'm still sleep-skating!!! http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/muede/d035.gif (It does keep me warm though, so that helps!)

I used to pack a chocolate bar but my doc says my blood sugar is creeping up so I guess I need to give up the food of the angles :cry: Are you eating the regular milk chocolate or the darker chocolate w/o all the sugars and milk butter? The darker ones are the ones you SHOULD aim towards. (I aim for the Scharffenberger's (http://www.scharffenberger.com/) with the high Cacao ratio. They're GOOD and just a small tiny piece will do 'ya...) ;)

lovepairs

10-06-2006, 12:20 PM

Hard boiled egg = nice little protein package! ;)

Casey

10-06-2006, 12:23 PM

No kidding! The worse fall (so far) was off a left forward spiral. I had held it almost the length of the ice and almost run out of speed when something caught my blade - straight down - SPLAT! - cracked a rib.
http://kc.sk8rland.com/video/ice_skating/falls/casey-spiral_fall.mpeg

Go on, laugh at me, you know you want to. But though I got up as fast I could that hurt a lot more than I let on there... :P

Casey

10-06-2006, 12:30 PM

Well good morning to you Sunshine ;)
LOL, man, some of this stuff is just too darn entertaining. How am I supposed to get to the rink with a conversation like this to sidetrack me?

Skate@Delaware

10-06-2006, 12:42 PM

skaternum

10-06-2006, 01:03 PM

LOL, man, some of this stuff is just too darn entertaining. How am I supposed to get to the rink with a conversation like this to sidetrack me?
Don't worry about it. He's still peeved that I called him out on a whopping lie about his test level last year. He'll get over it.

TimDavidSkate

10-06-2006, 01:11 PM

Wow I didnt realize that your period is still going on 8O
I could care less on what you discovered. I realize that everybody has negative comments on just about anything, especially a person just like yourself. How about grow up yourself and stop with the :twisted: , Im offering you my hand so we can cut this Sh*t. Its not healthy to keep having this grudge and hatred. Unless you really like it.

Have a pleasant weekend my dearest ;)

Bright, Sunny, and Dandy day to you Miss thing ;)Look, I know you're still pissed off because I called you out on a big whopping lie about your test level, but stop being so juvenile. (The only time you could ever get to juvenile, of course, is with your behavior. You sure didn't get there on a skating test.) You're a drama queen who thinks that people actually give a crap about you. Fact is, everyone is making fun of you and your website. People just respond to you to egg you on. So grow up and get over it.

Sonic

10-06-2006, 01:36 PM

....Yep, this forum is Deffo better than any soap opera forum.:lol:

BTW Tim - you think SHE's bad when she has her period, I tell you now she's got nothing on me.....:P :P

S xxx

jazzpants

10-06-2006, 01:41 PM

....Yep, this forum is Deffo better than any soap opera forum.:lol: One word: MEOW!!! :lol:

jazzpants

10-06-2006, 01:45 PM

http://kc.sk8rland.com/video/ice_skating/falls/casey-spiral_fall.mpeg

Go on, laugh at me, you know you want to. But though I got up as fast I could that hurt a lot more than I let on there... :PI would laugh, but I did the same bang on knees fall years back and well, took a while to heal the bruises... certain took a while to finally convince me to try for a spiral again (and even more years to now finally get myself to a somewhat decent spiral position.)

Sonic

10-06-2006, 01:57 PM

I would laugh, but I did the same bang on knees fall years back and well, took a while to heal the bruises... certain took a while to finally convince me to try for a spiral again (and even more years to now finally get myself to a somewhat decent spiral position.)

OWWW! Painful enough just thinking about it.

S xx

jazzpants

10-06-2006, 02:07 PM

OWWW! Painful enough just thinking about it.Well, what I didn't do that caused the fall was the exact thing that I'm supposed to do to fix my spiral... namely "lean" (I can't think of a good way to describe it) onto the back of my boot (so your weight is more on the back of the boot and straight knee (so it'll help you to lean more so you won't go on your toe picks!!!) In other words, I'm doing EVERYTHING that's scary about the spiral for me in order to keep me from what I fear about the spirals!!! :lol:

Needless to say, I had a tumultuous relationship with the spirals :roll: but we're "civil" now! :lol:

Casey

10-06-2006, 02:22 PM

>>OUCH<< are you all healed up now???
I hope so, that was more than a year ago :P

lovepairs

10-06-2006, 02:32 PM

Hi TimDavidSkate...Hi Casey! :D

TimDavidSkate

10-06-2006, 02:33 PM

Hi TimDavidSkate...Hi Casey! :D
hello lovepairs 8-) how are you? will you be attending skate america this month?

lovepairs

10-06-2006, 02:37 PM

Do you live in Connecticut?

TimDavidSkate

10-06-2006, 02:40 PM

Do you live in Connecticut?
nahs, I live in NYC... I'll be there tho from Thurs till Saturday ;)

lovepairs

10-06-2006, 02:47 PM

ohmygod, Lee just told me that you were the one who showed up at the Aviator thing...I read that! You poor thing...shleeping all the way out there!

By the way, which test did you pass? :halo: :D :twisted: ;)

TimDavidSkate

10-06-2006, 03:03 PM

ohmygod, Lee just told me that you were the one who showed up at the Aviator thing...I read that! You poor thing...shleping all the way out there!
By the way, which test did you pass? :halo: :D :twisted: ;)

Their prices at aviator is no different than Sky rink's 8O But Im planning on checking it out on Monday - AM freestyle

I just passed my Silver MIF on Sept 25 - 06 ;)

lovepairs

10-06-2006, 03:14 PM

TimDavidSkate

10-06-2006, 03:56 PM

Cool! A big congrats to you on Silver Moves! I wish I could go to Skate America, but I can't afford to travel right now. I went to your website, and, yes, your kitties are adorable! Will you be competing in the Halloween Classic in November? Lee and I skate at that rink (Aston) and we will be there. If you are going, we'll look forward to meeting you.

Best,
Lovepairs

THanks :-D Frisky the older one we got from Northshore Animal Shelter and Froggie I found inside an abandoned fridge at 3am. :cry:

Yes I will be competing at Aston, PA - I will be competing in Silver Men's event.

Look forward to meeting you ;)
Lets get some coffee or a drink

lovepairs

10-06-2006, 04:11 PM

Lee will be competing in Novice Moves...yes, let's all have coffee together!

Muffin came from the Media Animal Shelter and Cakie is from Aston, PA (she came from the pet store up the block from the rink.)

BC, who is no longer with us, came out of a garbage can on Mulberry Street in NYC. She was a kitten found in a garbage can, but once we got her out of there, she lead a long and happy life.

Cookie, also came from the Media Animal Shelter. Wee-chan came from an apartment on Bleeker St., NYC--he only lived until 6 (it was sad, but he was wonderful!)

That's all my cats! :D See you soon!

Hannahclear

10-06-2006, 04:12 PM

Chiming in here with a little anedote from my lesson yesterday.
Working on Bronze moves with my coach, she commented that she is concerned that I don't have enough power on the power three turns.
I told her that if the judges are expecting me ( a 41 year old woman) to do power threes with the power of a 11 year old, that is simply not going to happen.
Isn't this why we have Adult moves tests?

The standard on adult tests, as I'm sure you know, is "continuous strength and flow." To me, that means that they don't expect the kids to have the effortless flow of kids who just seem to throw themselves into the move, but they do expect evidence of power and control.

There is a big difference between you not having enough power, according to a professional coach, and what kids typically do. I would take the critique constructively and work to get to an adult standard. Just because your coach said that doesn't mean that she's saying you have to flow like a child skater. It means that you aren't there in terms of adult standards.

Terri C

10-06-2006, 04:19 PM

I'm another one who just disagrees with you Terri C. If you say you can't, whatever excuse you want, you most likely can't and won't. If you want power in your power 3's for example you need to find what you need to do to make it happen and work towards it. I try very hard to think I can or I will when skating. I firmly believe if you think it and work towards it you will. Your setting yourself up to limit yourself without trying to see what you can really accomplish. I hear this attitude often at my rink from fellow adults and it drives me nuts. Skating is one step at a time, work towards your goals and have fun. Be positive and don't limit yourself.

Chico

Sorry, but are you THE ONLY ADULT THAT SKATES AT YOUR RINK?
Have you had to do moves on sessions that are not only crowded, but the ice is crap and full of ruts, condensation turtles, etc?
I also have to ask, do you guys not believe in being judged as a adult and not a child?
BTW: I'm the first adult skater my coach is taking through on adult moves, so she doesn't know really how the adult tests should be judged!

doubletoe

10-06-2006, 04:45 PM

Sorry, but are you THE ONLY ADULT THAT SKATES AT YOUR RINK?
Have you had to do moves on sessions that are not only crowded, but the ice is crap and full of ruts, condensation turtles, etc?
I also have to ask, do you guys not believe in being judged as a adult and not a child?
BTW: I'm the first adult skater my coach is taking through on adult moves, so she doesn't know really how the adult tests should be judged!

I don't think anyone is saying that you SHOULD be judged according to standard track standards when we have adult standards we're supposed to be judged by. I think the point is just that you shouldn't underestimate your ability to achieve the same standard if you want to.

Why don't you direct your coach to the Adult MIF videos that have been posted online on the USFSA website so he/she can see what the passing standard is. Here's the link:
http://www.usfigureskating.org/Programs.asp?id=316

looplover

10-06-2006, 04:49 PM

They just changed the Synchro requirements to bring them more into line with the USFSA rules. I just attended the ISI Conference in June and they didn't mention anything about Adults getting a separate track. I can't imagine them introducing another program requiring judge's certifications. They have difficulty getting judges for competitions as it is today.

The ISI did introduce the "WeSkate" program, which is essentially a cool repackaging of their existing test levels with no revisions.

Where did you heard about the ISI test levels for adults?

A friend of mine who went to adult nationals sent me the proposed changes for testing levels and said I should email w/my feedback, which I did...I said I didn't like them lowering the bar but admitted that just because I like to try and skate at fast speeds I understood ISI was recreational. I never got a response to my email so now I'm wondering if this was one ISI member's proposed changes or if this was an ISI thing? I will try and find the list of changes.

looplover

10-06-2006, 04:56 PM

Have you had to do moves on sessions that are not only crowded, but the ice is crap and full of ruts, condensation turtles, etc?
I also have to ask, do you guys not believe in being judged as a adult and not a child?
BTW: I'm the first adult skater my coach is taking through on adult moves, so she doesn't know really how the adult tests should be judged!

But you didn't blame the ice or the rink...you blamed your age...and with all due respect that's not the problem.

Being judged as an adult should absolutely not mean being judged as if you can't do a good power 3. There's no reason why a 41 year old can't do one if you're talking solely about age, which you were in your original post.

This is an issue that pushes my buttons, I admit. It drives me nuts too. I've sat in the audience for several competitions hearing skating parents/audiences make fun of the adult skaters who skate excrutiatingly slow...and as angry as I am at the people who do that I also know that some of these people could skate a lot faster. I know that when I go out there Next month for my first competition in FS4 people are going to see adult and think "slowpoke, can't do it", and not pay attention. Oh well.

Terri C

10-06-2006, 05:02 PM

Why don't you direct your coach to the Adult MIF videos that have been posted online on the USFSA website so he/she can see what the passing standard is. Here's the link:
http://www.usfigureskating.org/Programs.asp?id=316

I did tell my coach this and guess what?
My coach died when she saw the forward perim stroking- the skater was not on correct edges and did not fill the ice/pattern completely. She was so aghast that she didn't watch the remainder of the video.
There is a disclaimer that the moves may not be skated to passing standard on the video on the USFS website.

e-skater

10-06-2006, 05:19 PM

I don't think anyone is saying that you SHOULD be judged according to standard track standards when we have adult standards we're supposed to be judged by. I think the point is just that you shouldn't underestimate your ability to achieve the same standard if you want to.

I'm uncertain about entering this particular discussion, but, here goes. When I tested AB moves, in 2004, there was no "continuous strength and flow" language.

My coach told me the judges mostly had no idea how to judge adults, despite the existence of "adult track". That they seemed to apply standard track criteria but use "adult numbers" on the test sheets. Therefore, my coach did her best (bless her heart, she did try really hard, the poor thing.....) to prepare me to meet standard track criteria.

I understand completely Terri's remark about "if the judges expect a 41 year old to skate power threes with the power of a kid" that it isn't going to happpen. I do think, depending on the adult, it can be extremely difficult, when you have not skated ever before, to reach standard track criteria successfully. Just my opinion. Even rink conditions and sessions/times adults have available to practice can make a difference. At some rinks, and some times, I DO think the judge expect to see the same criteria, regardless of "track" or age. It may depend on the rink, and how many adults have tested there in front of similarly composed judging panels.

I think it was sheer determination that I passed that moves test. I am certainly no "skater", trust me. Plus, I was 52 when I took that test.

Terri, my suggestion would be to prepare as for a standard track test, the goal being to get as close as you can to standard track criteria, since your rink appears to less observant of adult track criteria. Aside from that, another suggestion is to find a rink, if possible (and it often is not....as we adults often have both monetary and time constraints) where a lot of adults test, and test there.

Last, I think now that the adult track standard has been changed to "continuous strength and flow", there is a clearer definition between kids and adults doing the same elements. Hopefully anyway!

Debbie S

10-06-2006, 05:35 PM

Being judged as an adult should absolutely not mean being judged as if you can't do a good power 3.I think the essence of this issue is, what does "good" mean on an "adult" moves test vs the standard track? Obviously, there are going to be differences among judges; after all, skating is a subjective sport. But an ongoing frustration for me and many other adult skaters is inconsistency. True, I've seen some odd judging on Prelim and Pre-Juv MIF tests, but based on my experience and what I've read here, I'd say the inconsistencies in adult MIF judging are more pronounced. So while we are all working hard to improve our power, edges, flow, etc, it does get frustrating to prepare for tests b/c there doesn't seem to be a consensus on how "adult moves" will be judged.

I've sat in the audience for several competitions hearing skating parents/audiences make fun of the adult skaters who skate excrutiatingly slow...and as angry as I am at the people who do that I also know that some of these people could skate a lot faster. Well, you just pushed one of my buttons. Yes, some adults do skate slow - they're beginners. Not every adult is going to skate like they're taking the Gold MIF test. Just like the little kids toddling around the ice in Basic Skills comps aren't going to be skating like Michelle Kwan. Everyone has to start somewhere. As for people with preconceived notions that an adult skater is automatically a "slowpoke", s***w them! Go out and skate for yourself and kick butt. And maybe try some all-adult comps, where (hopefully) such negativity is not present.

My coach died when she saw the forward perim stroking- the skater was not on correct edges and did not fill the ice/pattern completely. She was so aghast that she didn't watch the remainder of the video.
There is a disclaimer that the moves may not be skated to passing standard on the video on the USFS website.The 5-step mohawk probably wouldn't pass, either. I also had an issue with the power circles - she only does about 11-12 crossovers for each (I thought you were supposed to do 15?) and seemed a bit slow. Then again, I haven't seen any Gold MIF tests, just Intermediate, but I suspect when you get to that level, the judges are generally looking for the same level of skating.

e-skater

10-06-2006, 05:52 PM

I think the essence of this issue is, what does "good" mean on an "adult" moves test vs the standard track? True, I've seen some odd judging on Prelim and Pre-Juv MIF tests, but based on my experience and what I've read here, I'd say the inconsistencies in adult MIF judging are more pronounced. So while we are all working hard to improve our power, edges, flow, etc, it does get frustrating to prepare for tests b/c there doesn't seem to be a consensus on how "adult moves" will be judged.

I agree with you! I've seen it at my own rink. In fact the youngster who did a 5-step mohawk sequence right before my test I was CERTAIN would flunk out. But no! She passed! I found it very hard to believe.

Well, you just pushed one of my buttons. Yes, some adults do skate slow - they're beginners. Not every adult is going to skate like they're taking the Gold MIF test. Just like the little kids toddling around the ice in Basic Skills comps aren't going to be skating like Michelle Kwan. Everyone has to start somewhere. As for people with preconceived notions that an adult skater is automatically a "slowpoke", s***w them! Go out and skate for yourself and kick butt. And maybe try some all-adult comps, where (hopefully) such negativity is not present.

Again. I think you are spot on. It is amazing to me how adults who have made .... huge strides .... in improving their skating are pigeon-holed into this .... dissed category. Case in point, a mom who's daughter just passed Senior Moves says the other day to me "Why aren't you skating at the adult session?" I explained I was working on a test, which meant skating a program (this was when I was working earlier this year on AB FS) and it meant taking up room and moving faster, which the adults there don't always like. Her reply was, "Well none of you guys skates fast anyway." Which isn't true, relatively speaking of course. :lol: The fact is, while I may not be a "fast skater" compared to her daughter, I do move faster than most of the folks at our adult session. As you said, Debbie, preconceived notions.

Isk8NYC

10-06-2006, 06:07 PM

A friend of mine who went to adult nationals sent me the proposed changes for testing levels and said I should email w/my feedback, which I did...I said I didn't like them lowering the bar but admitted that just because I like to try and skate at fast speeds I understood ISI was recreational. I never got a response to my email so now I'm wondering if this was one ISI member's proposed changes or if this was an ISI thing? I will try and find the list of changes.Maybe the surveyor is concerned about the way that skaters "max out" at a given point in ISI - usually around FS4-6. I'm not against changing the ISI structure of tests, but I'd rather see it done for everyone, not just adults. I'll look into this more next week. Thanks for the info.

doubletoe

10-06-2006, 06:18 PM

I also had an issue with the power circles - she only does about 11-12 crossovers for each (I thought you were supposed to do 15?) and seemed a bit slow. Then again, I haven't seen any Gold MIF tests, just Intermediate, but I suspect when you get to that level, the judges are generally looking for the same level of skating.

No, we still get a break on the Gold test compared to the standard track (Intermediate). And there is no minimum number of strokes stated in the rules for the power circles, just a maximum ("not more than 15"). I try to do 13, because if I only get 11 or 12 I know it means I'm not expanding my circle as much as I should. I thought the skater in the video could have started her crossovers a bit slower and shown more of an incremental increase in speed and quickness, ending with quicker crossovers and a little more speed. I also thought she could have expanded her circle a little more, which would have given her another 2 crossovers. But I think the whole point is that they don't have to be executed perfectly in order to pass.

doubletoe

10-06-2006, 06:23 PM

Her reply was, "Well none of you guys skates fast anyway."

Oooooooohhhh!!!!!! :evil:
How about, "I skate a lot faster than your big lard a$$, Mrs. I-live-through-my-daughter!" :lol: :twisted:

NoVa Sk8r

10-06-2006, 06:23 PM

The 5-step mohawk probably wouldn't pass, either. I also had an issue with the power circles - she only does about 11-12 crossovers for each (I thought you were supposed to do 15?) and seemed a bit slow. Then again, I haven't seen any Gold MIF tests, just Intermediate, but I suspect when you get to that level, the judges are generally looking for the same level of skating.I think this depends on the club. AFAIK (or have been told/instructed), in Washington FSC, they expect to see 12 crossovers (3 slow, 4 intermediate, 5 fast). In other clubs, for instance SC of NY, they want to see 15 (4, 5, 6). Just goes to show that if you are testing outside your area, it's best to find out what the local judges are looking for. (And I'm grateful that I only have to do 12 here! 8-) )

Hannahclear

10-06-2006, 07:12 PM

looplover

10-06-2006, 08:25 PM

Well, you just pushed one of my buttons. Yes, some adults do skate slow - they're beginners. Not every adult is going to skate like they're taking the Gold MIF test. Just like the little kids toddling around the ice in Basic Skills comps aren't going to be skating like Michelle Kwan. Everyone has to start somewhere. As for people with preconceived notions that an adult skater is automatically a "slowpoke", s***w them! Go out and skate for yourself and kick butt. And maybe try some all-adult comps, where (hopefully) such negativity is not present.

Oh I totally didn't mean to negatively criticize the slower adult skaters and I know I came off that way! I get frustrated for some people I know because I see they get frustrated, and I know they can do more because I can recognize some things that could be altered. I mean, if they're happy and having a good time that's really all that matters. I guess I just hate it when we limit ourselves out of fear...but I know I do it myself w/flips so I should just be quiet now!:giveup:

jazzpants

10-06-2006, 08:53 PM

I'm questioning why, if one's hobby is the cause of so much angst, that one would continue to engage in a voluntary activity.B/c it's fun??? LOL!!! :twisted: :lol: :P

The USFS has every right to have standards for adults. The standard does not change. One works to bring their skills up to standard.No one is question that USFS having standards. The frustration, I think, comes when the standard is inconsistent from other skating clubs or regions, or what USFSA's adult committee advocates the standard to be. For instance, say I was ready for skating Bronze FS at my home rink, but I have to travel to NYC to take my Bronze FS test in time for the deadline, I might not pass there!!! See what I mean?

Let's face it! It's vague and all judges will interpret it the way they want to. If you're a skater who's on the border of pass/failing a test, it's a crap shoot whether or not a coach should put his/her skater to test, b/c you could either get a nice panel of judges who will pass you (barely), or have the panel from HELL who will totally screw up your confidence in ever being a skater!!! :twisted: You'll never know!

Her reply was, "Well none of you guys skates fast anyway."That skating mom should have seen me clear out the middle of the rink last Sunday doing power circles! That should shut the mom up!!! :twisted:

dbny

10-06-2006, 10:22 PM

No one is question that USFS having standards. The frustration, I think, comes when the standard is inconsistent from other skating clubs or regions, or what USFSA's adult committee advocates the standard to be. For instance, say I was ready for skating Bronze FS at my home rink, but I have to travel to NYC to take my Bronze FS test in time for the deadline, I might not pass there!!! See what I mean?

Let's face it! It's vague and all judges will interpret it the way they want to. If you're a skater who's on the border of pass/failing a test, it's a crap shoot whether or not a coach should put his/her skater to test, b/c you could either get a nice panel of judges who will pass you (barely), or have the panel from HELL who will totally screw up your confidence in ever being a skater!!! :twisted: You'll never know!

The same thing is true for the standard track. Even in the greater NY metro area, there are significant differences in what the judges will pass. Some clubs are known for having more lenient or more demanding judges. I've been shocked at some of the skaters I've seen pass Juv MIF on the first try, when others have skated better and failed more than once under different judges. I know we've had threads on this topic before, and don't recall anyone ever coming up with a solution. I think the best thing is to know the reputation of the club's test sessions before signing up to test.

Casey

10-07-2006, 02:24 AM

Have you had to do moves on sessions that are not only crowded, but the ice is crap and full of ruts, condensation turtles, etc?
I have learned a LOT from skating on such sessions, skating fast while not killing anyone, throwing in moves and jumps anywhere I can without a thought process building up to it, etc. In any imperfect situation you can either feel bad about it or make the best of it. I'm not saying I always manage to do the latter, but when I do I come out ahead for it. In this case it helped teach me alertness, impromptu-ism (what is the word for that?), and to have better reaction times.

Empty freestyle sessions may give more opportunity to learn control, but they can also be boring if there's not enough people. EVERYTHING has it's pros and cons.

I also have to ask, do you guys not believe in being judged as a adult and not a child?
Funny you ask...I've actually been thinking a lot on this recently, and though I haven't tested at all yet, I've decided that when I do I'm going to try the standard track. I am however grateful the adult track exists! I'm just nuts! Most of why I want to take the standard track is because I want to be subjected to the same demands as kids. I have been saying for ages that I will be very clear with my next coach whenever I get one that he is to treat me NO DIFFERENTLY than his kid skaters, expectations and all.

lovepairs

10-07-2006, 06:06 AM

samba

10-07-2006, 06:38 AM

Hi Casey,

Why not have the best of both worlds?! In other words, test the Adult Track all the way up to Adult Gold Moves, then slide over to the Standard Track at the Intermediate level. Then work it on the standard track Intermediate through Senior. This way, by beginning with the adult track (believe me it is NO less of a challenge than the standard track) you will be eligible to compete in all of the Adult Competitions. This is a huge plus!

Just a little side note from experience and having heard this first hand: some judges (not all) actually DON'T believe that adults belong on the Standard track and will fail you no matter what you do. I've heard judges openly express this sentiment, as well as have experienced it through testing, too. So, why not develop you skill throught the Adult Track and deal with some of the "bias" when you really have your feet under you. Just a suggestion.

At first I thought, how lucky you guys are to have a choice, in the UK it's one standard test for all, however reading the second paragraph maybe not.

When I did my free tests I stuck out like a sore thumb from the rest because they were all kids, and then there was me, but the judges were fantastic, the only criticism was the speed or lack of, they said in the warm up I was fast but slowed down when I did the programme.

I dont think that they marked me up because of my age but they certainly didnt mark me down either, they just marked me as a skater and that is the best kind of respect. I never had the best marks of the day but I passed.

lovepairs

10-07-2006, 08:56 AM

Like I said, Samba, SOME judges have a bias against adults testing on the STANDARD track in the USA, and I emphasis NOT ALL. The judges on the Adult Testing Track, from my experience, want to be testing adults and are very fair. My partner and I only ran into this openly expressed "bias" when we finished with the adult testing track and slide over to the Standard Track.

We had to slide over to the Standard Track, because there is no other way for us to become Adult Master Pairs (they don't have the tests for Adult Master Pairs on the Adult testing track.) At first, I was sort of upset that I had to be on the Standard Track, but now I'm very very happy to be there, and will challenge those particular judges who feel I shouldn't be there by really working hard and proving to them that I can do this (even at age 50.)

Hannahclear

10-07-2006, 09:47 AM

I've only tested adult track, but I feel I've been treated very fairly by the judging panels and that I was marked according to an adult standard.

Just because you don't pass an adult test doesn't mean that the judges are expecting you to match a standard test quality. Maybe it means that you don't meet the criteria for the adult standards?

Look, skating is supposed to be fun. I take my skating seriously, but I would question my true motivation for being involved if I was being made miserable by the evaluation process. If that's too stressful, then why do it? Like I said, it's supposed to be for fun.

Terri C

10-07-2006, 12:11 PM

I've only tested adult track, but I feel I've been treated very fairly by the judging panels and that I was marked according to an adult standard.

Just because you don't pass an adult test doesn't mean that the judges are expecting you to match a standard test quality. Maybe it means that you don't meet the criteria for the adult standards?

Hannahclear? Hello? Have you been paying attention to the last few posts?
The passing standards for tests all over the country is all over the place. What may pass in one part of the country may not pass in another- get it?
To wit: Went to another rink this morning to skate, and saw a adult who has not more power than me and guess what- she passed Bronze moves back in June and is now working on her Silver!

Sonic

10-07-2006, 12:17 PM

Look, skating is supposed to be fun. I take my skating seriously, but I would question my true motivation for being involved if I was being made miserable by the evaluation process. If that's too stressful, then why do it? Like I said, it's supposed to be for fun.

Hear, hear, Hannah!

Skating is a difficult sport, and we're all aware that adult skaters have more disadvantages than kids, not only in terms of physical limitations but 'real life' stuff like good old work, marriage, bills, etc...getting in the way.

At the end of the day, it's a HOBBY - (albeit one that seems to take over one's life lol!) and as Hannah says it's supposed to be fun.

Sure there are days when we feel like we're getting nowhere and come away from the rink wondering what an earth we're doing, but I'm sure for most of us the good days - even if there are few of them - well outweigh the bad.

As for comments from skating parents (many of whom are, as doubletoe points out, living their non-existent skating careers through their kids) - take these with a large dose of salt.

Better to skate slow than not at all, I say.

S xxx

skateflo

10-07-2006, 03:25 PM

And, sadly, there are still UDFS judges who don't think adults should be testing period......'oh, just skate for fun'......or the ones that have no interest in judging adults and admit openly that they refuse to even look at the adult testing structure..... There is good and bad in every sport.

icedancer2

10-07-2006, 04:05 PM

The passing standards for tests all over the country is all over the place. What may pass in one part of the country may not pass in another- get it?

The passing standards may be different also depending on who is sitting on your three-person panel! - or even a one-person panel for that matter. That is why there are three judges and gee, you pass the whole test if you get two out of three judges to pass you. You will see this on any standard test with kid skaters. Sometimes it is just the "luck of the draw" -- oh well.

It wasn't always like this -- "In the Old days" you had to get all three judges. Period. No exceptions.

Just my 2 cents.

e-skater

10-07-2006, 04:33 PM

I'm questioning why, if one's hobby is the cause of so much angst, that one would continue to engage in a voluntary activity.

The USFS has every right to have standards for adults. The standard does not change. One works to bring their skills up to standard.

Gee, if I want to hear that, I can talk to my husband, who says the same thing when I "complain" about my skating, or skating-related things. :roll: :)

The point, regarding USFS adult standards, at least in my opinion, is that there are cases where the "standards" are not evenly applied, and in terms of there being an "adult standard", perhaps not applied at all. Doesn't it go without saying that when one is prepping for a test you work to bring skills up to the standard you are testing?! The point is, one cannot always count on THAT STANDARD as being the one applied to you at your test!

Sheesh.

The bottom line always remains the same though, doesn't it? You either pass or you don't.

lovepairs

10-07-2006, 05:38 PM

I don't skate just for "fun." Never did and never will. I don't make art just for "fun." Never did and never will. The "just for fun" line of reasoning really only serves to exempt you from the critique...In other words, it's just for "fun," so I don't really have to get too bent out of shape when I'm frustrated, or my coach gives me a harsh critique, or the judges don't think I'm good enough to pass. After all, no feelings hurt, because it's "just for fun."

I'm not saying that "fun" isn't part of it...of course, it's fun to do, but it's much more than a "fun hobby." Think about it: Needlepoint can be a "fun hobby" and it is WAY LESS EXPENSIVE TO DO. I'm not knocking needlepoint, because I do that, too, and I don't just do it to busy myself, or pass the time. Just like skating, it is a very serious, interesting, and profound persuit (I suppose it's what you make of it.) If we keep telling ourselves that it's just "for fun" no wonder many judges don't take adults seriously.

beachbabe

10-07-2006, 05:43 PM

Hannahclear? Hello? Have you been paying attention to the last few posts?
The passing standards for tests all over the country is all over the place. What may pass in one part of the country may not pass in another- get it?
To wit: Went to another rink this morning to skate, and saw a adult who has not more power than me and guess what- she passed Bronze moves back in June and is now working on her Silver!

this comment just makes you sound like a sore loser.

How do you know the situation? That skater may be coming back from an injury, and you have no idea how she might have skated on her actual test.

testing is subjective to some extent and there is going to be individual variation among judges but you certainly should not blame judging for your failure to fulfill test requirements to a satisfactory level. Yes, some judged are more lenient than others with mistakes but they will not fail you if you do everything right.

You should focus more on improving your own skills than comparing yourself to another skater because you will get much further in skating this way.

instead of asking What does this skater who's passed have that I don't?

you should ask What can I possibly improve in order to pass MY test next time I take it?

Hannahclear

10-07-2006, 08:47 PM

dbny

10-07-2006, 11:24 PM

I agree with beachbabe. Sounds like sour grapes to me. You can keep making excuses or you can change things. Good luck with your choice.

Now, now, play nice children!

Terri C is absolutely right. Standards are not standard and it is a real problem. I didn't catch even a hint of sour grapes in her post, just chagrin at the hodge podge that is USFS judging these days, and frustration with it.

If you want to pass Adult Bronze FS with a sit spin that bends your knee less than you would need for good FXO's and with full rev jumps half rotated, come to my neck of the woods and test at a particular club. If you want to pass standard track Juv MIF with B cross strokes bent at the waist and stepping onto the toe pick, and with FI Mohawks on your 8-step, come to my area and test at another club. None of that is really important though. What is important is that one knows what to expect and to what standard one will be judged. If everyone were judged the same, no problem! But to achieve even more than what others might consider a passing standard and not pass is just not right. Unfortunately, I think this is what we have to live with, both Adult and Standard track. Judging is subjective.

I do think, though that it's better not to compare yourself to other skaters if you can possibly help it. That's what competition is for.

cecealias

10-08-2006, 01:55 AM

I would agree with what beachbabe/hannah/dbny said - all of you have made clear and valid points.

I think people get too caught up on what's passing and what's not... and they tend to miss the bigger picture that each level is just another part of the learning process which doesn't start or stop anywhere.

Tests are meant to be general guidelines for stages of progression in learning how to figure skate. Because the learning and judging process varies on a continuum from person to person and isn't clear cut, the passing standard cannot be a clearly drawn line in the sand at all. It's kind of like trying to say where the beach ends and where the water begins- you really can't - it's never consistent and it changes with the tides and the moon every day.

To me, one should not focus on the exactness of the passing standard which is beyond the skater's control but rather on their own skating and individual weaknesses and strengths. I believe the nature of skating is such that the quality of all skills can be somewhat subjective. Probably the best thing is to skate for yourself and to best possible ability that you can and continously work on refining things with your coach...

jazzpants

10-08-2006, 02:11 AM

Now, now, play nice children!Coming from you dbny.... ROFLMAO!!! (I just have this mental image of you saying that and pointing your finger at everyone!!! Too funny!!! Tee hee hee... :lol: )

Standards are not standard and it is a real problem. I didn't catch even a hint of sour grapes in her post, just chagrin at the hodge podge that is USFS judging these days, and frustration with it.THANK YOU!!! That's the point I was trying to make!!! :bow:

What is important is that one knows what to expect and to what standard one will be judged. If everyone were judged the same, no problem! But to achieve even more than what others might consider a passing standard and not pass is just not right. Unfortunately, I think this is what we have to live with, both Adult and Standard track. Judging is subjective.Yup! That's the point!!! All judges are looking for different thing and they all have different expectations of what's considered passing. It's NOT universal...

The other thing that's even more important to think about is... just b/c you've done well enough on your test to pass, does NOT mean that you're ready to work on the next set of skills. Keep in mind all those lower level moves are BUILDING BLOCKS which becomes the high level moves tests that you test later on. So no, just b/c I've passed my Bronze Moves test does NOT exempt me from NOT practicing those skills. (The Bronze moves test elements are now my WARMUP!!!) If anything, it just means I have MORE stuff to work on now, actually! LOL!!! :lol: :twisted: :P (Which means I better find more time to skate! DOH!!! 8O )

I do think, though that it's better not to compare yourself to other skaters if you can possibly help it. That's what competition is for.Yeah, I agree on that!!! And furthermore, I'll add that a competition does not necessary determine who's the "best skater." It's the best skater at that particular moment! If you have an off night, or if you're injured or sick with bad sushi, or a blade breaks in the middle of a competition (sound familiar, renatele? :lol: ) that would be enough to throw someone off that top spot.

I've stopped comparing myself against anyone a while ago! It drove me up the wall when I did... and didn't bring anything for me except anxiety attacks and a sense of insecurity! :x Once I started focus on my homework and nothing else, things starting clicking for me!

Sonic

10-08-2006, 02:24 AM

Yeah, I agree on that!!! And furthermore, I'll add that a competition does not necessary determine who's the "best skater." It's the best skater at that particular moment!
...and to add to that, even that's not necessarily conclusive. As with testing, it's largely down to the judges' likes and dislikes: e.g. some prefer easy but well executed elements whereas others give points for attempting more difficult stuff even if they don't quite come off. Some seem to overlook elements completely and just go for the general 'look' of the skater.

S xxx

jazzpants

10-08-2006, 03:00 AM

...and to add to that, even that's not necessarily conclusive. As with testing, it's largely down to the judges' likes and dislikes: e.g. some prefer easy but well executed elements whereas others give points for attempting more difficult stuff even if they don't quite come off. Some seem to overlook elements completely and just go for the general 'look' of the skater.AHHHHH, and keeping the quote above in mind, those same judges that are judging your competitions are gonna bring THEIR expectations along on the TEST SESSION too!!! Each of the judges' expectations are different... and you can either pass or miss by 0.3 depending on the judge. (See why I think it's subjective now???)

I have a feeling that this document (http://www.usfsa.org/content/AdultMIFcomp.pdf) should have NEVER came out!!! (Or at least be revised and just list what the test standard is and take out the adult section?) I mean, GEEZ! Pretty much all the comments about the Bronze Moves tests on my test forms were straight from the "Test Standard" section, NOT the "Adult" section! :P

Hannahclear

10-08-2006, 07:21 AM

As dbny pointed out, standards are NOT uniform in EITHER the adult track or the standard track. And as another pointed out, there is no way to make uniform standards in a subjectively judged sport.

So either love it and enjoy it or leave it, IMO.

emma

10-08-2006, 10:59 AM

No, we still get a break on the Gold test compared to the standard track (Intermediate). And there is no minimum number of strokes stated in the rules for the power circles, just a maximum ("not more than 15"). I try to do 13, because if I only get 11 or 12 I know it means I'm not expanding my circle as much as I should. I thought the skater in the video could have started her crossovers a bit slower and shown more of an incremental increase in speed and quickness, ending with quicker crossovers and a little more speed. I also thought she could have expanded her circle a little more, which would have given her another 2 crossovers. But I think the whole point is that they don't have to be executed perfectly in order to pass.
That was not my experience. I took gold moves in the same block as kids taking senior moves and they were brutal. Because these are the last moves in the adult track they judge them with very little room to mess up. I took int. moves the next month and actually found that they were a little easier on me. I passed both in the first try but Gold moves were much more nerve racking for me. By the way two of the judges were the same judges for both on those test so I did not have that discrepancy.

Terri C

10-08-2006, 11:54 AM

Terri C is absolutely right. Standards are not standard and it is a real problem. I didn't catch even a hint of sour grapes in her post, just chagrin at the hodge podge that is USFS judging these days, and frustration with it.

Thanks dbny for backing me up.

Skate@Delaware

10-08-2006, 02:33 PM

Yup! That's the point!!! All judges are looking for different thing and they all have different expectations of what's considered passing. It's NOT universal...

This is what I keep hearing in my neck of the woods. Depending on where you are going for your test, they have different "standards" of what is passing. It's enough to drive you crazy! We have kids trying to figure out the best place to test for the different levels. For myself, I have heard "go here but not there" referencing the different rinks, some not so adult-friendly. Not that it matters, as my coach is very strict and precise. She only has one standard and that is the "right way."

Casey

10-09-2006, 12:11 AM

I do think, though that it's better not to compare yourself to other skaters if you can possibly help it. That's what competition is for.
That's the head of the nail there, dbny.

You can travel somewhere easier and pass some test, but what does it really matter if you come in last place at every competition you go to at the level you have passed? I guess you can go around saying, "I'm an _____ level skater" but really, that's not going to buy much respect if anybody you tell has seen you skate and you don't deserve it.

On the other end of the spectrum, the problem is people who sandbag. But who cares if they keep you from your #1 spot in XYZ competition - just go out there and skate your best and feel accomplished and have fun doing it. If anybody appreciates your skating, you have succeeded, even if it's only yourself. :)

Bottom line though, you can't let yourself feel downtrodden because somebody else is better or pretends to be better or anything else. Just have to stay focused on yourself, and if you're determined, you can and will be undeniably better than whomever it is you might otherwise be upset about. Even the best in the world have weak points, and there's always room for improvements. Just be happy about what you have accomplished, and of the way you've gone about it. :mrgreen:

Casey

10-09-2006, 12:12 AM

I think people get too caught up on what's passing and what's not... and they tend to miss the bigger picture that each level is just another part of the learning process which doesn't start or stop anywhere.
HERE HERE! I guess I should have read your reply before posting my last one. You've said it much more eloquently. :)

Casey

10-09-2006, 12:29 AM

Wow, I just realized how much this thread has strayed from it's original topic.

But it is rather indicative of the greater, real problem.

There are basically two types of attitudes an adult skater may have:

Post-Teen Angsty Complainer

"I'm too old to accomplish anything"
"I have physical limitations, so why bother trying?"
"Sally cheated on her test, that's the only reason she's ahead of me."
"Waaaaaaah it's somebody else's fault that I had a bad day!"
"I hope she gets what's coming to her...she deserves worse!"
"Bob shows off and rubs it in my face and then tries to say he's just skating and means no offense. He's such a liar..."
"Life isn't fair. Skating isn't fair. Maybe I can make other people feel the same..."

Grown-Up Enough To Be Mature, But Still Knows How To Have Fun

"I don't let my age hold me back!"
"Joanne's really good, I hope to get that good!"
"Today I was off...but there's always tomorrow!"
"Sometimes I feel jealous of better skaters, but then I remind myself that I can be all of that and more."
"I have physical limitations, but I fight back, and seek out alternate methods to get ahead"
"Joanne is totally sandbagging. Oh well, no reason no hold a grudge. When I win, I will be able to say that I have so it honorably."
"Some people are such whiners! *rolls eyes* I wish they could just be happy!"
"I love skating! It makes life worth living. Maybe I can make other people feel the same!"

Edited to add: Most of us go through the first attitude at some point, I know I did...it's a hard trap to avoid. The trick is getting past it. But we can all evolve if we want to.

doubletoe

10-09-2006, 01:06 AM

That was not my experience. I took gold moves in the same block as kids taking senior moves and they were brutal. Because these are the last moves in the adult track they judge them with very little room to mess up. I took int. moves the next month and actually found that they were a little easier on me. I passed both in the first try but Gold moves were much more nerve racking for me. By the way two of the judges were the same judges for both on those test so I did not have that discrepancy.

Ooh, that's really nice to hear! :D I took my Gold MIF almost a year ago and have been trying to get ready for the Intermediate MIF test. I know the passing standard is higher so I've been assuming I need to perform them better than I did on my Gold test. Then again, every set of judges could be different, too. . . :??

jazzpants

10-09-2006, 02:35 AM

You can travel somewhere easier and pass some test, but what does it really matter if you come in last place at every competition you go to at the level you have passed? I guess you can go around saying, "I'm an _____ level skater" but really, that's not going to buy much respect if anybody you tell has seen you skate and you don't deserve it.Ummm... how about the case where you specifically move up JUST to qualify to go to AN, huh??? :P And you DO deserve it if you passed those tests!!! ;)

Casey

10-09-2006, 09:31 AM

I have a feeling that this document (http://www.usfsa.org/content/AdultMIFcomp.pdf) should have NEVER came out!!!
I finally found a similar document for standard track!!

http://kc.sk8rland.com/docs/usfsa/MIFSchoolManual.pdf

Interestingly, it also contains adult notes.

emma

10-09-2006, 10:12 AM

Ooh, that's really nice to hear! :D I took my Gold MIF almost a year ago and have been trying to get ready for the Intermediate MIF test. I know the passing standard is higher so I've been assuming I need to perform them better than I did on my Gold test. Then again, every set of judges could be different, too. . . :??
I think if you passed with all three judges in your Gold Moves you should do well on Intermediates. The only comment they made was that they want you to look like you "own the ice" in both Gold and Intermediate moves. I am not sure what they meant by that but I assume that want you to reek with confidence. I think the reason Gold Moves freaked me out is that I was on warm up ice with 16 year olds doing Senior moves going up and down the ice at break neck speed and I just got psyched out by that, All that said many adults have not passed Gold moves in their first try but do pass Intermediates in their first try

blue111moon

10-09-2006, 10:19 AM

1. To be blunt, because some people suck at skating. There. I said it. Some people just suck, and no amount of time or effort or smart training is going to change that.

2. Some people will have physical restrictions and no amount of time or effort or smart training is going to change that.

This is true for kids as well as adults. There are some people who just aren't "built right" for the sport, no matter how much they love it. That doesn't mean they shouldn't skate but they (and I'm one of them!) have to be realistic about what their bodies will allow. I know for a fact that my body is doing more than I expected it to ("layback") but there are some things that no amount of stretching and training will allow me to do (spread eagles - I can turn in but not out). It doesn't mean I stop trying. I just do ask much as my body will allow and I don't sweat the stuff it won't. (Okay, maybe I could curse my parents for not giving me enough fast-twitch muscle-fiber genes but, really, what's the point in that?)

As for the "fun" issue, personally I think that if you're not having fun at skating, you should find something else to do. Skating is too expensive and too demanding to pursue regularly if the most you get from it is frustration. And for most adults, unless we're earning a paycheck from coaching, skating is just a "hobby"- something we do for recreation or exercise or stress relief. No matter what we do on the ice, we still have jobs and families and life tasks that have to be faced when we take our skates off. It's a wise coach - and skater - who remembers that and takes it into consideration.

One thing I've observed in my now-two-and-a-half decades of adult skating - the skating-obsessed people (the ones who spend or seem to spend every waking moment skating or thinking about skating or training to skate or planning their entire lives around skating generally aren't that much fun to hang out with. Even the elite skaters I know have hobbies and things they do besides skating. A balance point is more than just a spot on your blade. :) I'd much rather hang around the bar after Mountain Cup and talk about jobs and families and hometowns than spend the time being "advised" (although it feels like "lectured") about nutrician and how with the "right" combination of vitamins and yoga I, too, can do triple axels.

As I get older, I find there are more things that my joints and muscles complain about doing and occasionally refuse to do at all. It takes me way longer than the kids to learn the same skill (heck, it takes me way longer than most adults to learn the same thing!). Am I a typical adult skater? Probably not. But I don't think there is "typical" adult. We're all unique with individual strengths and weaknesses and there are no sbsolutes. I do what I can do and if I'm happy with that, that's fine.

cecealias

10-09-2006, 12:01 PM

doubletoe

10-09-2006, 12:20 PM

I think if you passed with all three judges in your Gold Moves you should do well on Intermediates. The only comment they made was that they want you to look like you "own the ice" in both Gold and Intermediate moves. I am not sure what they meant by that but I assume that want you to reek with confidence. I think the reason Gold Moves freaked me out is that I was on warm up ice with 16 year olds doing Senior moves going up and down the ice at break neck speed and I just got psyched out by that, All that said many adults have not passed Gold moves in their first try but do pass Intermediates in their first try

Oh, that's very encouraging, thanks! Yes, I passed my Gold MIF by all 3 judges and on the first try, but it took every ounce of concentration I had, since they really weren't all that consistent yet, LOL! The back power 3's can be really tricky, though! :??

flo

10-09-2006, 01:13 PM

Lots of opinions here.....

I do believe that an adult can skate with the power of an 11 year old, and an 11 year old beginner can look like an adult beginner. The power (very different from speed, anyone can go out there and go fast) is learned, just as in any other skill. Since it is a skill, everyone will or won't learn it at a different rate. Also, it's something that comes with time and experience and comfort level on the ice. These things can not be rushed or subtitiuted for, it's a process and simply takes time. You work on it and work on it, and it clicks. I remember exactly when it clicked for me, and it was like advancing a mosterous step.

Just a thought on all the "advice".
I do skate for the fun of it and when it's not fun, I don't skate. I'm very serious at it, and always have been. I think we also have to look at where we are in our respective skating "careers". Once when I was frustrated over a less than great practice, my coach wisely said "you can't be perfect all the time". Likewise we can't be expected to maintain the same levels of excitement and intensity all the time. I say this because I think this is what I've been seeing here on the boards lately. Lots of people in different stages of their skating lives giving lots of advice based on a variety of intensity and experience levels - real, wishful or imagined. I see the excitement/frustration from the beginners, the "How cool is this!" or "listen to me and I will tell you all you need to know" from those competing and starting to medal, and "I'm burnt out" or "enjoy" from the seasoned among us. And some things just can't be told, but must be experienced - like forgetting to take off your guards and getting on the ice. This too is a process.

lovepairs

10-09-2006, 03:17 PM

"Fun" is highly overated. I skate when it is fun, and I also skate when it's not fun. If I stopped skating when it wasn't fun, I'd hardly make any progress at all.

doubletoe

10-09-2006, 04:10 PM

doubletoe

10-09-2006, 04:17 PM

"Fun" is highly overated. I skate when it is fun, and I also skate when it's not fun. If I stopped skating when it wasn't fun, I'd hardly make any progress at all.

This is a perfect illustration of how everyone skates for different reasons. Some people find that the satisfaction of achievement outweighs any difficulty encountered during the process, while others are all about how enjoyable the time is that they are spending on it. I think the problems come up when one type just doesn't understand why the other type doesn't do the "logical" thing. For example, when an achiever type complains about the difficulty she's experiencing and makes it sound like she's absolutely miserable, an enjoyment type--who can't understand why anyone would want to be miserable--suggests she just quit . . . and the achiever type is shocked 8O LOL! ;)

jazzpants

10-09-2006, 05:05 PM

This is a perfect illustration of how everyone skates for different reasons. Some people find that the satisfaction of achievement outweighs any difficulty encountered during the process, while others are all about how enjoyable the time is that they are spending on it. I think the problems come up when one type just doesn't understand why the other type doesn't do the "logical" thing. For example, when an achiever type complains about the difficulty she's experiencing and makes it sound like she's absolutely miserable, an enjoyment type--who can't understand why anyone would want to be miserable--suggests she just quit . . . and the achiever type is shocked 8O LOL! ;)And with this in mind... quoting Rodney King "People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along?" LOL!!! :lol: :P

flo

10-10-2006, 09:36 AM

I guess this just points out another difference for us all to be aware of. Some can skate "just for fun" AND make "progress". I'm ok with my rate of progression - if I/you count progress by by the friends I've made skating - bunches! and by the experiences themselves! Or even if you count progress by medals - 9 National, 1 international. Again, I'm at a different stage, and I understand my approach may be of little help to someone who just wants that stupid frustrating jump they've been working on to finally appear!

Sonic

10-10-2006, 02:42 PM

And with this in mind... quoting Rodney King "People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along?" LOL!!! :lol: :P

ROFL! :mrgreen:

Whadya think guys...is this thread going to be even longer than that 'LTS kids on freestyle sessions' one a couple of months back lol...?!?:D

S xxx

jazzpants

10-10-2006, 03:13 PM

Whadya think guys...is this thread going to be even longer than that 'LTS kids on freestyle sessions' one a couple of months back lol...?!?:D It's already there!!! (It was eight pages there and we're on our NINTH page!!! LOL!!! :twisted: :lol: :P )

Casey

10-10-2006, 03:18 PM

It's already there!!! (It was eight pages there and we're on our NINTH page!!! LOL!!! :twisted: :lol: :P )
Do we have ten, anyone? Come on...the debate's not over until somebody loses an eye. :P :lol:

Sonic

10-10-2006, 03:25 PM

Do we have ten, anyone? Come on...the debate's not over until somebody loses an eye. :P :lol:

C'mon then casey. Outside NOW - if you think your tough enough. I'll bop you up side the head with my fluffy blade soakers.:mrgreen:

S xx

jazzpants

10-10-2006, 03:28 PM

Do we have ten, anyone? Come on...the debate's not over until somebody loses an eye. :P :lol:You just made it 10 pages, Casey!!! LOL!!! :twisted: :P (No need to lose an eye over it. Besides, you already lost a finger!!! LOL!!!) :twisted:

On original topic (and a reminder NOT to OD on things!!!): I OD'ed on my training Sunday. Went to the rink...skated 1.5 hours, then did ellipitical for 40-45 minutes. Got off the elliptical trainer and... could NOT walk!!! My lower back was REALLY sore... and I could not feel my left leg!!! 8O 8O 8O

Gave it some time standing where I was, then managed to limp over to the elevator to go to a mat to stretch out. Heard this CRACK as I was stretching out my back. Got back up... I can walk again!!! :twisted: Then I got to a VERY WARM shower to heat my back and it's feeling better again! Go figure!! :roll:

flo

10-10-2006, 03:38 PM

Also on original topic - time for a (not to overdo it) drink!;)

Kristin

10-10-2006, 03:54 PM

Working on Bronze moves with my coach, she commented that she is concerned that I don't have enough power on the power three turns.
I told her that if the judges are expecting me ( a 41 year old woman) to do power threes with the power of a 11 year old, that is simply not going to happen.
Isn't this why we have Adult moves tests?

I know it sounds like a cliche, but maybe try some ice dance to help with that power-pushing (especially once you get thru the prelims and start working on the pre-bronzes and up). Dance teaches you very *efficient* power pushing, something that will always serve you well! :) Good luck! You can do it.:mrgreen:

Kristin

10-10-2006, 04:00 PM

All judges are looking for different thing and they all have different expectations of what's considered passing. It's NOT universal...
[QUOTE]

Well, that's why you always have a panel in judging rather than just one judge (as a judge, I can say it is a very good thing). :mrgreen:

[QUOTE=Jazzpants]
I've stopped comparing myself against anyone a while ago! It drove me up the wall when I did... and didn't bring anything for me except anxiety attacks and a sense of insecurity! :x Once I started focus on my homework and nothing else, things starting clicking for me!

That's the smartest way to structure your skating practices.....your coach will give you homework that he/she feels will help you get ahead. I have been doing the same thing, not listening to others, and boy did my skating improve! I have confidence that this attitude will go a long way for you too! You can do it! :)

Kristin

10-10-2006, 04:08 PM

This is what I keep hearing in my neck of the woods. Depending on where you are going for your test, they have different "standards" of what is passing. It's enough to drive you crazy! We have kids trying to figure out the best place to test for the different levels.

LOL! As a judge, I see people trying to test at different clubs to get a "difference passing standard" and I can honestly tell you that it is a load of blarney. We have the same judges going to clubs *all over* our Metro area and it doesn't matter which club it is since the judges are the *same.* The passing standard honestly has nothing to do with which club it is.

Best thing to do is to practice what your coach tells you to do and work to perfect your test. Don't worry about which club is which. Listen to your coaches, do the homework, and let them dictate when you are ready to test. Work on solid technique & putting out the best skate you can during a test session!

I am no exception since I am a skater too! :)

dbny

10-10-2006, 04:10 PM

crayonskater

10-10-2006, 05:48 PM

My intuition on this is that perhaps too much power is the problem for lots of adults. Little kids just learning their turns and edges go much slower than I do; littler, smaller muscles, &c. I'm learning the same things, but having to do so with a lot more potential power.

jazzpants

10-10-2006, 07:21 PM

Here's another view on the power threes for adults. Back when I had a coach and was actually doing power threes, coach told me I needed more power/speed. She hadn't seen that I was deliberately holding back and slowing myself down! I was scared of flipping out on the threes, which had happened before, and resulted in a pretty scary kind of cartwheeling fall. For me power is not the problem, it's control.Yup! That was my experience too! It's a TECHNIQUE issue!!! For the longest time I had trouble getting enough speed b/c I was just afraid of going too fast onto an edge and sliding off an edge. When my coach adjusted my power 3's so I'm facing where I'm supposed to be stepping to and when I figured out the timing of when to step to the FO, I felt a LOT more comfortable in pushing to a FO edge and eventually it was consistent and much faster (well, faster than a slug for me... but... :twisted: )

If it's any consolation, dbny, the typical falls you get on those power 3's is probably just on your butt or your knees and it's nothing more than a bruise.

lovepairs

10-10-2006, 08:08 PM

jazzpants

10-10-2006, 09:12 PM

LOL! As a judge, I see people trying to test at different clubs to get a "difference passing standard" and I can honestly tell you that it is a load of blarney. We have the same judges going to clubs *all over* our Metro area and it doesn't matter which club it is since the judges are the *same.* The passing standard honestly has nothing to do with which club it is. True to a certain point... in my case, I have judges traveling all over the Bay Area too... but unless there's a competition, chances are good that if I just go about a couple of hours away that I'll less likely to run into those same judges. (Of course, in the case of local competitions, all bets are off!!!) :twisted:

Of course, in my case, the only reason why I just test at my home club is partly b/c I'm lazy and don't want to travel... and my primary coach (who's the person usually putting me out) also is lazy and don't want to travel too! LOL!!! :twisted: :mrgreen:

I've stopped comparing myself against anyone a while ago! It drove me up the wall when I did... and didn't bring anything for me except anxiety attacks and a sense of insecurity! :x Once I started focus on my homework and nothing else, things starting clicking for me!Best thing to do is to practice what your coach tells you to do and work to perfect your test. Don't worry about which club is which. Listen to your coaches, do the homework, and let them dictate when you are ready to test. Work on solid technique & putting out the best skate you can during a test session!

I am no exception since I am a skater too! :)I don't know... my primary coach really thought I should have passed when I took my Bronze Moves test the second time around. (My secondary coach has reservations though... and so did I.) I don't think it's just the coaches that would dictate when I'm ready. I passed on the third try... this third time around, the primary and secondary coach agreed I was ready... and so did my moves critique judge AND my wonderful coach in NYC... I need that sense of unity from all my coaches to have the confidence to try for that test again. Point is... in the end, it's ME that has to dictate when I'm ready!
Now the primary coach is bugging me to test Bronze FS... :roll: :giveup:

Rusty Blades

10-10-2006, 09:48 PM

My intuition on this is that perhaps too much power is the problem for lots of adults.

Yup! I have way more power than anyone at my skill level should be trusted with! 8O The best thing my summer coach did for me was teach me how to do forward cross-overs without going supersonic - LOL! (Of course she didn't do that until I almost took her out when an edge broke free while I was headed in her direction! :mrgreen: )

For me, it has ALL been about control and my skating didn't really start coming together until I started to develop the core strength to keep the rest of my body (hips up) firmly in position.

As far as "fun", fun for me is challenging myself to learn to do things I can't do today. On January 18, I couldn't stand up on skates. Today I am fighting with 3-Turns and Mohawks. Forward stroking and edges aren't "fun" anymore - the blasted forward Mohawks are!

(Are we on page 11 yet?)

crayonskater

10-10-2006, 10:38 PM

The statement "I skate just for fun" is another way to dumb down the whole experience. A very bourgeoisie concept that exists in countries, such as America, where there is disposable income "just to have fun." In several cultures the idea of "fun" doesn't even exist as a component of a serious pursuit. So, if it's "just for fun" then it is "recreational" so why compete? Which is it? I think this lies at the very heart about why Adult Skating is not taken seriously by many constituencies surrounding the sport.

Skating is a language, just like any other language. If I were trying to learn to speak Chinese, but just doing it for a hoot, or to hang out around good food, and make new friends, I would never achieve fluency, because that takes hardwork, a commitment, and level of seriousness. The gratification and fun is certainly a bi-product of this type of pursuit. However, I'm afraid if it is the main motivation is "having fun/making friends" then it's simply recreational. Well, maybe that's why the USFS has instituted the "recreational" catagory for adult skaters.

What's wrong with it being recreational? I don't mean to be snarky, as I'm honestly curious. (And not defensive; don't read that in at all.) Plenty of people are weekend warriors in other sports. There are baseball teams, soccer leagues, tennis clubs, running clubs, you name it; and not all of them are administered by the same organization that runs the professional league. (Nor do I think it's an American bourgeousie past-time to enjoy 'sport' without intending to be serious about it; thinking of pick-up games of soccer all over the world. Maybe not with skating, because that's expensive.) Many of these groups have competitions, even though they're just for fun. There are post-menopausal tap dancing women's groups, adult ballet classes.

I do skate, just for fun. For sport. I'm not intending to make a living at it. I'm not trying to go to the Olympics (good thing too!). That doesn't mean I don't try to perfect the skills I'm working on, or that I want a baby track that doesn't expect me to have edges because I'm trying to dumb it down, or that I'm just there to make friends and I'd be just as happy at a movie. It just means that this is a past-time. I do it because it's an enjoyable way to pass the time. To stay in shape. To have fun with a sport. If it becomes a chore, well, I can go to the gym for that and it's a lot cheaper, y'know?

What's wrong with skating being a fun sport that I'm not any good at?

Casey

10-11-2006, 02:51 AM

What's wrong with skating being a fun sport that I'm not any good at?
Nothing at all, as long as you don't blame it on age and complain about it constantly. :) Fun is what it should all be about in any case.

Rusty Blades

10-11-2006, 04:38 AM

What's wrong with skating being a fun sport that I'm not any good at?

Absolutely nothing! All of the other adult skaters I know (except one) have that attitude.

I think it tends to be us "Type A" personalities who have to take an enjoyable passtime and make it a life-or-death struggle to triumph mind over body - LOL!

I know it drives my coach crazy - she just doesn't understand that I push myself so bloody hard simply because I ENJOY pushing myself hard. She says I need to take it easy on myself - does that slow me down? No. She says it takes time to learn some moves - does that make me any less determined to "get" that move NOW? No.

Different personalities have different needs and desires. I happen to be DRIVEN! - but that's just me and I certainly wouldn't want to push somebody else like I push myself!

mintypoppet

10-11-2006, 05:12 AM

I think it tends to be us "Type A" personalities who have to take an enjoyable passtime and make it a life-or-death struggle to triumph mind over body - LOL!

Ah, but isn't that what makes things fun for us Type A personalities? ;)

Personally, I love chucking myself in at the deep end. However, I've never done it for a sport before - it's always been academic - so while my brain's used to steep learning curves, my body isn't. If I hammer away at a move, I get tired and the practice stops being productive. On balance, I prefer to take a break from it and not injure myself, than spend 6+ weeks off the ice and have to regain the skills.

looplover

10-11-2006, 05:51 AM

I think it tends to be us "Type A" personalities who have to take an enjoyable passtime and make it a life-or-death struggle to triumph mind over body - LOL! .......
Different personalities have different needs and desires. I happen to be DRIVEN! - but that's just me and I certainly wouldn't want to push somebody else like I push myself!

Are you me?

Mine can be really self destructive for me at some point on the ice though. I'd never done a program before ISI FS4 so now they freak me out and I'm finally competing next month, ran through it yesterday for the first time since June (fractured shoulder, took time off) and I was so mad at myself for doing virtually everything wrong that I aborted the program. Who did I think I was, Johnny Weir????:D :D :D

Other than having to learn to give myself a break, I enjoy being a Type A skater, I hope it serves me well when I finally switch to U.S. Figure skating (once I get an axel and hopefully have more $$$$ for skating)

lovepairs

10-11-2006, 06:45 AM

What's wrong with skating being a fun sport that I'm not any good at?

Nothing wrong with it at all. Those who approach it primarily for "fun and making friends" are clearly recreational skaters, and nothing wrong with that at all, which is why the USFSA has made a "recreational" catagory for adult competitions. I believe there was also a "recreational" catagory for the Adult Training Camp in Hackensack this past summer, too.

Then there are others who are in it, such as myself and my pairs partner, (and by the way, we are definitely not alone in this. We speak with many many other adult skaters who feel the same way we do about this "fun/limitations" issue) who are clear that the primary reason we are doing this is not JUST for "fun" and "socializing." I can think of much less expensive ways to have fun and make friends.

Kristin

10-11-2006, 06:57 AM

The statement "I skate just for fun" is another way to dumb down the whole experience. A very bourgeoisie concept that exists in countries, such as America, where there is disposable income "just to have fun." In several cultures the idea of "fun" doesn't even exist as a component of a serious pursuit. So, if it's "just for fun" then it is "recreational" so why compete? Which is it? I think this lies at the very heart about why Adult Skating is not taken seriously by many constituencies surrounding the sport.

Skating is a language, just like any other language. If I were trying to learn to speak Chinese, but just doing it for a hoot, or to hang out around good food, and make new friends, I would never achieve fluency, because that takes hardwork, a commitment, and level of seriousness. The gratification and fun is certainly a bi-product of this type of pursuit. However, I'm afraid if it is the main motivation is "having fun/making friends" then it's simply recreational. Well, maybe that's why the USFS has instituted the "recreational" catagory for adult skaters.

To some extent, I would agree with you that the "just for fun" thing can be seen as "not serious." But if you look at the idea that most adults are working (either at home with families or out in the workplace 40+hours/week), life is so serious that sometimes we need to blow off steam. Personally, skating has been a great release for me. It's a distraction from my very "serious" technical Senior Engineering life in the automotive industry. I work hard at work because I have to, and I work hard at skating because I enjoy it so much. Life can't always be 100% serious. And the people I talk to daily are amazed that I can have the discipline to get up at the crack of dawn 4-5 mornings a week and do physical exercise. Do they see it as a "serious" investment in time & money? You bet! Not one of them would ever do it!

Competition/testing for me is a way to see if I can do all these learned elements, in front of judges, while my knees are shaking. I like to set goals for myself and achieve them. I don't do it for anyone else, just ME! And other people I meet don't see my skating "hobby" as a "recreational hobby" because I have been skating at the crack of dawn for 8 yrs straight. They are amazed by how I can balance "real life" with a hobby that to them is downright dangerous!

We adult skaters are amazing! :bow:

Rusty Blades

10-11-2006, 07:36 AM

I work hard at skating because I enjoy it so much

Exactly! Isn't that why we all skate? I climb the mountain because it is there and for the thrill I get when I stand at the top (one little move at a time) and the feeling of accomplishment. Others do it for the view.

We adult skaters are amazing!

Fersure! (Though, for me, "cracked" might be more appropriate :mrgreen: )

Kristin

10-11-2006, 07:45 AM

Fersure! (Though, for me, "cracked" might be more appropriate :mrgreen: )

LOL! I totally agree! 8-)

Skate@Delaware

10-11-2006, 07:58 AM

Why do I skate? Because I can and because I love it!

I think that suits a lot of people on this board-we skate because we love it and we will keep skating as long as we can and as long as the love is there.

blue111moon

10-11-2006, 08:33 AM

"Being the Best that You Can Be" is one thing. Thinking that the world revolves around skating (or should revolve - and getting mad when it doesn't) is something else again.

The fact remains that adults skaters - no matter how much we train and sweat and struggle - aren't going to the Olympics. Adult Nationals and Mountain Cup and the Obertsdorf competition are wonderfule events but they aren't on the same level as the Tour de France or the World Cup. The majority of the skaters in adult events have other jobs outside of skating (how else would we pay for it?) and homes and families that put demands on us that the truly elite athletes don't generally have. We aren't doing this to make a living at it, or to acheive fame an fortune. When it comes right down to it, we challenge ourselves and that challenge is a source of enjoyment and that's good. That's the fun for me, anyway.

I don't compete to beat other people (thanks God because I'd be doomed to disappointment :) ) and it bothers me to see my friends beating themselves up because, even though they did the best they could, they didn't win because somebody else skated better than they did. Guess what, there's ALWAYS going to be somebody better, sooner or later and winning a gold medal today doesn't make you a better person than you were. Believing that skating is the Be All and End All of Existence - and that anyone who doesn't share your belief is somehow beneath your notice - IS delusional.

It's Adult Skating - there's nobody standing at the podium to hand me tickets to Disneyworld for winning a medal and come Monday morning, I still have to get up and go to work, just like millions of other people. To paraphrase one of my heroes, the marathoner Joan Benoit Samuelson, "Skating isn't my life, it's a part of my life." I'm in it for the long run.

BatikatII

10-11-2006, 10:15 AM

I don't skate 'just for fun' but I certainly skate because it's fun and personally can't imagine why anyone would skate if they didn't enjoy it. I don't see that being serious about a sport and enjoying and finding it fun are mutually exclusive at all. There are loads of kids - probably the majority in fact who skate 'for fun' but nobody says they aren't serious and shouldn't compete if they aren't aiming for the Olympics (though there are certainly some so called 'elite' skaters who appear to feel that only they should be allowed on the ice at all!).

Why do I compete? Because in a perverse kind of way even competing can be fun. I enjoy the challenge of competing and for me, without competition then my skating would be without goals and without goals I have nothing to work towards and no reason to learn new jumps or moves or spins. Then it wouldn't be fun anymore.

Competition also gives me a reason to try to overcome my limitations (physically I have problems with both my back and my knees) and without it there would be no real reason to push my limits. Testing gives you goals to some extent but competing against others gives a special kind of impetus - though I am not so vain as to assume winning means I am the best skater. I am lucky in so far having had the apparent ability to skate better in competition than I do in practice, whereas some skaters with more technical ability than I have, do not necessarily do so well in competition.

I take exception to lovepairs's assertion that you cant have fun in a serious pursuit. Having fun while doing any serious pursuit generally makes one better at it. Taking the language anaology, I would bet that the person learning a language to have fun and make friends would actually end up better at it than the one studying it 'seriously' in a class because the first person's motivation is higher (everyone is motivated by enjoyment surely!) and they are enjoying the practicing.

I dont know what cultures lovepairs refers to when talking about 'not having fun in a serious pursuit' but I've lived in some fairly poverty stricken places and I'd say 'fun ' was pretty high on the agenda though they may not be able to afford to 'buy' their fun.

If the competitive personalities get their fun from winning that's great for them but don't diss the rest of us who are just as serious about our skating but for whom winning isnt everything. In fact speaking from experience, those for whom winning is all, can be very sore losers when one of us 'less serious' skaters beats them in competition!:D