Adult MIF on video!

[mdvask8r]

Check it OUT!!

http://www.usfigureskating.org/Programs.asp?id=316

Kudos to the adult committee!!!

[sk8pics]

Be sure to scroll all the way to the bottom; there's a lot of info on that page. I think there are still a couple of minor additions, one more gold move for example, to be included.

[phoenix]

Definitely kudos!! Wish there were a way to skip the looooong intro stuff before getting to the actual video, but still a GREAT resource!! Very interesting to see the 'passing standard' demonstrated by a real adult. It's different than I would have thought--I haven't seen many adult tests. It will be very helpful for both coaches and judges!

[jazzpants]

YAAAAAY!!!! You skaters on the videos are skating *STARS* now!!! :twisted: :lol: :P :bow: :bow: :bow:

[Terri C]

I tried and Jazzpants tried to help me... but my computer refuses to play the videos! So much for spending every night at the monitor watching forward power perim crossovers and power threes!
I do have a backup plan. I e-mailed this thread to my coach and maybe I'll ask her to burn the videos to me on DVD. Is this permissible?

[Stormy]

They won't play on my computer either. Windows Media just freezes when I try to play them.

[mikawendy]

Be sure to scroll all the way to the bottom; there's a lot of info on that page. I think there are still a couple of minor additions, one more gold move for example, to be included.

The videos are great! (sk8pics, thank your coach for his work on this! ;) )

One thing that seems odd though, is that in the video about common mistakes, it appears to me that the video demonstrations first show the wrong way and then show the proper technique; however, the text on the explanatory screens just say "The move is skated the proper way" or something like that (when it would be clearer if it said "The move is shown with the common errors, then is shown with the proper technique."

[LilJen]

Cool!!

Gotta love how the url, when you start to look at particular patterns, includes "adultvideo". . . . what will my browser think???

[TimDavidSkate]

Thanks so much.. I didnt know that change within the Silver Moves (pattern change for the mohawk sequence) 8O THanks sooo much for the link ;)

[jp1andOnly]

I noticed that silver move 3 and 4 go to a Michael Weiss link and don't seem to have the link to download.

As a Canadian, these are interesting to watch since we don't do adult tests. Attached to our freeskate are stroking elements similar to many of those shown in the videos. Fro example, the perimeter stroking in bronze happens on our prelim test.

We also have "skills" which is basically like a dance pattern, set to music, but demonstrating a variety of elements. For example, 3's and mohawks, brackets and choctaws

[dbny]

For those of you whose computers can't play the videos - right click and select "save target as". Navigate to the folder where you want the file stored on your computer. This will download the video and you can then play if offline whenever you wish.

[Skate@Delaware]

Well, thanks for posting this stuff! Not only is it nice to know what that durn 3-turn pattern is really supposed to look like 8O but it's also nice to see what I get to work on if I test and pass these moves....

my husband thought the one video of the perimeter stroking was of me....I'm not sure what to think about that!

[dbny]

Has anyone else had trouble with the Silver 3 and 4 videos? It looks like they aren't there anymore, or have been renamed.

[cecealias]

It's about stinking time!!!! :D No more discrepancies!! Anyone know if they also did it for standard track moves??

[phoenix]

There are already (very expensive) PSA videos for standard moves. Would be nice if we could view them like this for free!!!!!

[sk8pics]

Phoenix,
You should be able to fast forward through the intro part if you like. I know I have done that, but I forget if it is easier with Windows Media Player or RealPlayer, but you can definitely do it.

Stormy and Terri,
Does RealPlayer also not work? I know people sometimes have issues with older computers, updating software, and so on, but perhaps if you updated either Real Player or WMP, it would work, if DBNY's suggestion doesn't help you.

Mikawendy,
I had exactly the same thought and provided that feedback about the common errors video. Thanks for also providing that info!

I know the page is not quite complete, so they will also have to fix any link errors. Thanks to everyone for pointing them out. We started work on these some time ago, doing some of the videotaping at like 6 in the morning one day. 8O I was so impressed with my coach showing up before 7 to do his part!:bow:

[jenlyon60]

It's about stinking time!!!! :D No more discrepancies!! Anyone know if they also did it for standard track moves??

Well, some of the common errors are the same for both the adult track and the standard track. In judging the lower level MIF tests, I have probably seen most if not all of the common errors Phil Dulebohn demonstrated on the summary video clip.... from both adults and kids.

I think to some degree the common errors tend to be more obvious on the adult tests because many adults (at the lower levels) don't always have the flow and attack of the kids (even the lower level kids). So the common error (for example, being on the wrong edge [i.e. the outside edge] after the transition/weight shift [after the 3-turn] in the forward power 3's) is more apparent because the skater is often moving slower.

Not true of every adult and not true of every kid, but just an observation.

[Award]

Silver 3 and 4 are completely out of action, for mediaplayer and realplayer. I hope they fix that up.

[Skate@Delaware]

I know from seeing my coach demo three turns what they should look like, but it's also nice to see other people do the move. And having the video at hand (I put it on my cell phone) means I have a handy reference for those "duh" moments...because my arms and legs still aren't getting along like they should and working together!

[dbny]

Silver 3 and 4 are completely out of action, for mediaplayer and realplayer. I hope they fix that up.

They aren't there at all. I downloaded instead of watching online. When I couldn't get them to d/l, I got the properties and went directly to the URL, which is when I saw that they are missing or misnamed.

[phoenix]

Did anyone else notice that on the demo of the gold inside slide chasse pattern, she doesn't actually *do* inside slide chasses?! She takes a stroke onto an inside edge, then kicks the free foot forward. That's very interesting...... that would pass??

[jazzpants]

Ummmm... unless the skater has done a lot of skating in his/her past and is now testing the adult track, no way in HELL anyone in Pre-Bronze is gonna do those 3-turn patterns as well as Phil!!! LOL!!! :giveup: :lol: :P :bow:

My only suggestion is instead of naming them Silver 1 or Bronze 3 to name the files like Silver Powel Pulls or Bronze Forward Power 3's or something like that. Yeah, I know. I'm supposed to memorize the order of the moves tests, but I haven't gotten around as of now to memorizing the Silver Moves (my next test) yet b/c right now I'm "nowhere in Hades" anywhere near ready to test those elements yet!!! :P ;)

sk8pics: More :bow: for your coach!!! I just wish I could hear what he was saying on a couple of the videos. :(

[Debbie S]

I can't get them to play, either, but that's probably b/c of a slow connection - dail-up. I thought about downloading, but the time given was 2 1/2 hours (for the common errors video). 8O Is there any chance these could be made available on DVD or VHS for purchase?

Terri, is your coach able to burn them to DVD? If so, want to share? :) :bow:

[jazzpants]

Well, some of the common errors are the same for both the adult track and the standard track. In judging the lower level MIF tests, I have probably seen most if not all of the common errors Phil Dulebohn demonstrated on the summary video clip.... from both adults and kids.

I think to some degree the common errors tend to be more obvious on the adult tests because many adults (at the lower levels) don't always have the flow and attack of the kids (even the lower level kids). So the common error (for example, being on the wrong edge [i.e. the outside edge] after the transition/weight shift [after the 3-turn] in the forward power 3's) is more apparent because the skater is often moving slower.

Not true of every adult and not true of every kid, but just an observation.I am NOT cecealias, but I think she's thinking more for the higher level standard track moves test elements which the adult moves tests don't cover! :P

[jazzpants]

I can't get them to play, either, but that's probably b/c of a slow connection - dail-up. I thought about downloading, but the time given was 2 1/2 hours (for the common errors video). 8O Is there any chance these could be made available on DVD or VHS for purchase?

Terri, is your coach able to burn them to DVD? If so, want to share? :) :bow:I'd love a DVD version too, if nothing else, b/c I want not to be sitting in front of the computer from time to time. :twisted:

I would do it for you guys, but alas, this computer geek's home computer only has DVD-R capability and would rather spend the money on getting a brand new computer WITH DVD-RW capability instead. Which is better than my work, which doesn't have ANY DVD player. (We're not allowed to have them! It's a WORK computer... and our work does not involve videos and such...just boring database and ERP stuff... :roll: :giveup: )

[Skate@Delaware]

I can burn them to dvd...and make copies (I have the equipment for that). So, if you want one, let me know (pm me).

[cecealias]

I am NOT cecealias, but I think she's thinking more for the higher level standard track moves test elements which the adult moves tests don't cover! :P


Yup! Jazz is right on that one - I'm looking for novice moves guidance. LOL.

BTW, I wonder if these new videos are going to be setting "the standard" for the judges now on what counts as passing adult standard.

Does anyone know?

[cecealias]

I think to some degree the common errors tend to be more obvious on the adult tests because many adults (at the lower levels) don't always have the flow and attack of the kids (even the lower level kids).

Yes, and the adult being physically bigger, the error gets amplified and the more obvious and error is, the easier for a judge mark it down....

[dbny]

I reported the problem with Siver MIF 3 and 4 to the USFSA web master, and she got back to me just now saying they will be working shortly.

Boy, she is FAST! All done!

[froggy]

finally these videos have come, and its nice to see other adults skating the moves.

what suprised me so much was the fact that I have been doing all along bronze MITF besides the 5 step mohawk pattern thinking it was just exercises my coach wanted me to do they are so much easier to do than the pre-bronze! when i finally get my waltz eights and 3 turn pattern down pat ..ill definately test both the pre-bronze and bronze together!

[e-skater]

I agree. Major kudos in order for the Adult Skating Comm.

I'm downloading Silver 1 as an experiment. With dial-up, I'll be downloading forEVER! But then I can get them onto a VCD (no DVD drive yet), and it will still be good enough for instructional purposes. Looking forward to it.

I just started learning Silver moves (though I've taught myself some......version......of some of the moves--fraught with every conceivable error!) actually from a coach, so these will be quite helpful to me.

[kateskate]

Really really intersting. I love field moves! My teacher here showed me his DVD of the new UK field moves and I loved that too.

And its good to see adult skaters doing adult tests.

[slusher]

oooh, I'm so thrilled at USFSA for putting these online. Finally I get to see what you guys have been sweating about all this time. I've saved them to computer for future reference.

I like that the adults are wearing pants.

I do that 8 step mohawk as a dance exercise, with outside closed mohawk.

[nja]

Did anyone else notice that on the demo of the gold inside slide chasse pattern, she doesn't actually *do* inside slide chasses?! She takes a stroke onto an inside edge, then kicks the free foot forward. That's very interesting...... that would pass??

Yes, I noticed it to. She's stepping on an outside edge and rocking to the inside edge and just sticking her foot in front. You should be putting your foot down on the inside edge and getting a real edge pull with some power.

Also, she wasn't putting her three turn on the top of the lobe. If you look at the pattern in the book, the turn should be at the top of the circle. The pattern demonstrated by Phillip D. at the end of the video is more correct in this.

Personally, I don't think her pattern should pass. It probably wouldn't if it were done that way in the Intermediate MIF test.

[aussieskater]

Those videos were really interesting to watch, if for no other reason than to see what you guys have been sweating over! We don't have such a testing regime down here unfortunately - we have no adult track as such, and no "field moves" tests at all (and now I finally know what is meant by "field moves"!).

One question on the Pre-Bronze Move 1 (perimeter stroking) - the lady demonstrating it seemed to be very careful to "cross over" the feet when doing crossovers, rather than doing a progressive-style crossover. Does a progressive not get passed?

[vesperholly]

Did anyone else notice that on the demo of the gold inside slide chasse pattern, she doesn't actually *do* inside slide chasses?! She takes a stroke onto an inside edge, then kicks the free foot forward. That's very interesting...... that would pass??
Yes, I also thought this pattern was not correct and wouldn't pass. I didn't like how she kicked her free leg up so high (and with a FLEXED FOOT :x ). The "kicking" is one of the things my coaches always told me would fail that move. I was taught the move as a "slip" step.

I was also surprised at the new Pre-Bronze 3-turn pattern. Unless I was missing something (I test standard track so I haven't learned these), it looked like a FI 3-turn followed by a step forward to FO 3-turn? I don't think that would teach adequate 3-turn control and check - could end up really spinny.

[jazzpants]

Yes, I also thought this pattern was not correct and wouldn't pass. I didn't like how she kicked her free leg up so high (and FLEXED :x ). The "kicking" is one of the things my coaches always told me would fail that move. I was taught the move as a "slip" step.But did you see the one that Phil did afterward the first demo??? It was continuous "*growl**growl**growl*mohawk-*growl*..." 8O :bow:

Drooling here...

[dbny]

One question on the Pre-Bronze Move 1 (perimeter stroking) - the lady demonstrating it seemed to be very careful to "cross over" the feet when doing crossovers, rather than doing a progressive-style crossover. Does a progressive not get passed?

Progressives are better; the video is demonstrating that even such slow, and very deliberate basic crossovers should pass. I have my doubts about that, though. A lot depends on where you test and who the judges are. That's true for the standard track too.

[Award]

Silver 3 and 4 for mediaplayer are linked again.

[dbny]

Silver 3 and 4 for mediaplayer are linked again.

As I reported at 4:33 EST. Laura Fawcett took care of is as soon as I notified her of the problem. Don't hesitate to contact the USFS webmaster if you ever find an error on their site.

[emma]

Hey do they also have instructional video for the standard track? It would be great to see passable novice moves as it seems almost everyone I know fails them at least once.

[doubletoe]

Hey do they also have instructional video for the standard track? It would be great to see passable novice moves as it seems almost everyone I know fails them at least once.

I don't think it's available for free on the website, but there areofficial PSA moves-in-the-field instructional videos for sale.

http://www.skatedvd.net/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=S&Product_Code=441111DVD&Category_Code=DVD

[dbny]

Hey do they also have instructional video for the standard track? It would be great to see passable novice moves as it seems almost everyone I know fails them at least once.

The PSA makes them. You can buy them from Rainbo (http://www.rainbosports.com/shop/site/product.cfm/id/1818AF64-D610-7E99-D12412583B716493).

[Skate@Delaware]

Progressives are better; the video is demonstrating that even such slow, and very deliberate basic crossovers should pass. I have my doubts about that, though. A lot depends on where you test and who the judges are. That's true for the standard track too.
I have heard that some of the judges in my area (Delaware, Maryland) are picky on these. I am my coach's first adult student to test so she is asking around. I prefer progressives to crossovers (now 8O ). She is also making me deepen my lobes on the crossovers and get more "edge" on them (along with speed....she likes speed).

[dbny]

On the Standard track there are supposed to be at least 4 XO's on the PrePre perimeter stroking, and they are supposed to be executed twice as fast at the plain stroking, but I've seen PrePre passed with only 2 XO, and pretty slow at that. Both the PrePre and the PreBronze are encouragement tests, and there should be considerable slack in the judging.

[sk8pics]

I've been told the videos are going to be made available on CD or DVD for something like $25. I have no idea when, but that's in the plan.

About forward crossovers vs. progressives, I've seen lots of adults at the pre-bronze level doing deliberate crossovers like on the pre-bronze video. At that level I would be shocked if it failed because it wasn't a progressive style video. For that matter, I've seen similar crossovers pass on the bronze move as well, although by that test it's more typical to see the progressive style of crossover.

[Skate@Delaware]

My coach has me do both styles of crossovers...regular and progressives. For back crossovers she still has me doing both...sliding my foot across and the ISI version of picking it up and crossing it over 8O . How she comes up with this stuff is amazing.....she's going to another skating seminar on Sunday so I'm sure there will be new stuff.

Does anyone do progressives on the pre-bronze tests? I was just wondering.

[phoenix]

My thoughts on progressives vs. crossovers......

Progressives are a more advanced form, take more skill & better control, and show a more refined technique. You should never dumb down your skating to match a perceived level of test.....if you exceed expectations they will mark you up accordingly. This isn't the LTS classes where they're actually looking for a lifted foot on back crossovers, or a stepped over fwd crossover. This is the big time, the real thing, where they are looking for accomplished, polished skating.

I was on my pre-gold dances by the time I started taking my moves tests, & you can bet I didn't do crossovers instead of progressives on the pre-pre test!! Skate above the level of passing standard, & take all those nice extra points they'll give you!

[sk8pics]

You should never dumb down your skating to match a perceived level of test.....if you exceed expectations they will mark you up accordingly.

I didn't mean that the skaters were dumbing down their crossovers when I said "deliberate crossovers." I meant that along the lines of methodical. I need more coffee this morning.

[phoenix]

I didn't mean that the skaters were dumbing down their crossovers when I said "deliberate crossovers." I meant that along the lines of methodical. I need more coffee this morning.

No, I understood what you meant......I was making the comment to the people who were wondering if they should choose to do crossovers instead of progressives for that particular test, even though they're capable of doing the progressives. I think that clean, as you say, deliberate crossovers are perfectly acceptable for that level. But if you *can* do more, I think you should do it! :)

[JulieN]

I can't remember whether it was my Intermediate Moves or Adult Gold Moves Test, but one of the judges made a comment on my forward power circle -- "not true crossovers" because I did progressives instead of crossovers. IIRC, she still passed me, but I thought it was interesting that she pointed it out.

[jazzpants]

I don't know about Pre-Bronze but... by the time you get to Bronze Moves and those Perimeter crossovers, the judges WILL make comments (http://www.skatingforums.com/showthread.php?t=21320) on those progressives, if not FAIL you on it (http://www.skatingforums.com/showthread.php?t=18547)!!! :evil: What they seemed to be looking for is good power (where speed is the end result of...), no toe pushing, good push under, staying on pattern, correct edges and EXTENSION everywhere there's a free leg lifted up! (Thin-Ice, you were spot on with that comment!!!)

I wouldn't dumb down anything! If you're comfortable doing progressives, do it!!! You certainly won't get docked on it!!! :P :lol:

I'm playing around with progressives now when I don't feel like jumping... when my secondary coach looks at it, hopefully I'll have at least a working one. :oops:

[jazzpants]

I can't remember whether it was my Intermediate Moves or Adult Gold Moves Test, but one of the judges made a comment on my forward power circle -- "not true crossovers" because I did progressives instead of crossovers. IIRC, she still passed me, but I thought it was interesting that she pointed it out.Hmmm??? It's supposed to be a bad thing you're doing progressives instead of crossovers in the case of power circles then??? If so, weird... *scratching head*

Anyone else has a similar experience to this on the Gold Moves test???

P.S. Hi, Julie! Long time no see!!! :D

[icedancer2]

Hmmm??? It's supposed to be a bad thing you're doing progressives instead of crossovers in the case of power circles then??? If so, weird... *scratching head*

Anyone else has a similar experience to this on the Gold Moves test???

P.S. Hi, Julie! Long time no see!!! :D

I would guess that this has more to do with the [somewhat ambiguous]definition of a "progressive-style cross-over" than the judges wanting you to do a "pick up the foot, ISI-style cross-over" on gold moves Power Circles.

An ice-dancer will have a more strict definition of progressives -- ie., NO "cross-over" at all, than a freestyler, where the foot crosses, but crosses so far in front that it isn't the obvious cross-over you see in the person doing the forward perimeter stroking (with subsequent end section cross-overs) in the video.

I think the point of having the person in the video doing an obvious step-and-cross-over is to show that this type of cross-over is acceptable at the Pre-Bronze level,-- after all, it is an encouragement test!!

These videos are great to a certain pint -- as with any of it, certain judges will accept some errors and others will not. I guess that is why we have three judges on the panel! It insures (hopefully) a certain level of fairness in the moves involved.

Kudos to the adults who skated for this video -- I have to say, I think most of them skate (and look) just like me!! In fact, the person in the first video looked so much like me that I had to look twice and make sure that it wasn't filmed (secretly) at my rink... nope, not me!

[sk8pics]

I would guess that this has more to do with the [somewhat ambiguous]definition of a "progressive-style cross-over" than the judges wanting you to do a "pick up the foot, ISI-style cross-over" on gold moves Power Circles.

An ice-dancer will have a more strict definition of progressives -- ie., NO "cross-over" at all, than a freestyler, where the foot crosses, but crosses so far in front that it isn't the obvious cross-over you see in the person doing the forward perimeter stroking (with subsequent end section cross-overs) in the video.

Yeah, I agree with that. I know that when I am working on (struggling with!) progressive style crossovers, my moves coach is still yelling at me to cross, just not a step-over type of cross.


Phoenix, I totally agree with you.

Pat

[Debbie S]

FWIW, I had very steppy crossovers on my Pre-Bronze MIF test, and I passed. I did get comments about that (and also that my clockwise crossovers were not as strong as CCW), but passed, and the one judge (it was a panel of 3) that failed me didn't make a comment about the stepping over - her issues were more with the BI edges and the alt 3's.

When I took my Bronze test the first time, I got comments on the perimeter stroking moves about leaning forward and being scratchy, and not always being on the correct edges. I passed both of those moves the second time I took it (my issues then were the power 3's and 5-step) but I did get a comment from one of the judges (a nat'l level dance judge who is known for being very strict) that my crossovers looked "walked". Neither of the other judges said that, so that was probably a case of what one judge considers acceptable for a certain level doesn't match what another judge thinks.

My coach always emphasizes that crossovers are really cross-unders, and that in forward crossovers your front foot should be placed in front (not across) of your push-under foot and then your "under" foot should push under. She pointed out that the problem with my forward crossovers is that I was really only doing one push, b/c by placing the front foot so far over the back foot, I wasn't getting as much oomph out of the push under, and that decreased the power I was generating.

But, as others have pointed out, improving crossovers is a continuous process, and the judges aren't likely to expect that a Pre-Bronze skater will have the same crossovers that a skater at a higher level would have. However, as phoenix said, if you are advanced and can do better crossovers, by all means do.

[Award]

Make sure that the files are downloaded fully, because I had a few cases where the browser said 'download completed', while in fact the file was maybe 50 to 70 percent completely only. If the file is fully downloaded, and if it's a mediaplayer file, the mediaplayer will allow you to skip/cue/jump ahead etc while playing the file. But for an incomplete file, you will be able to watch however much of the file there is, but the skip/cue/jump functions won't be working.

[PhysicistOnIce]

I'm not ready to test the pre-Bronze moves yet, but am slowly getting there.

In my lesson this morning we had a look at the ones that I can do to date
and my coach commented on the fact that I'm doing progressives instead
of cross overs (I'm also having dance lessons).

She was concerned that this would be a problem on the moves test.

Admittedly part of the concern was that my CW are much weaker and so
probably do not look like proper progressives OR cross overs, but the
apparent differences that many of the previous posters have experienced
is quite worrying to me.

Is this something that is likely to be clarified, either nationally, or with some
local knowledge, or do people who learn both cross-overs and progressives
practise both and pick the right one on the day?

[dbny]

Make sure that the files are downloaded fully, because I had a few cases where the browser said 'download completed', while in fact the file was maybe 50 to 70 percent completely only. If the file is fully downloaded, and if it's a mediaplayer file, the mediaplayer will allow you to skip/cue/jump ahead etc while playing the file. But for an incomplete file, you will be able to watch however much of the file there is, but the skip/cue/jump functions won't be working.

Ah, thank you! That explains why I can skip forward on some but not all of the videos I downloaded.

[Skate@Delaware]

I'm not too worried about whether to do crossovers or progressives during the test...I'll leave that to my coach to worry about.

I work on both :frus: and she still picks on them...more knee bend...more edge...etc. I don't think I'll ever get them to a point where I can stop working on them...ever! I do have a harder time going clockwise so I do twice as many in that direction just for that reason.

[Award]

Ah, thank you! That explains why I can skip forward on some but not all of the videos I downloaded.

You're welcome about that db.

[Award]

At the moment, I'm running 256 kbs adsl modem speed, and trying to download silver 4. I've tried to download it 10 times already, and each time the download cuts out from between say 50 percent to 90 percent of the full file. There might be a problem with their server because I don't have problems downloading much bigger files from other sites from around the world. Anybody else having similar issues with the downloads?

[Debbie S]

do people who learn both cross-overs and progressives
practise both and pick the right one on the day?OK, I've been pretty confused about this whole forward crossover vs. progressive issue (I don't do dance, just MIF and FS) so tonight I asked one of the dance coaches about the difference between crossovers and progressives. He said that the difference is that a crossover has 2 pushes and a progressive has 3 - the third push being a repeat of the first push. So, in a crossover, you end up on an inside edge and in a progressive you end up on an outside edge (with free leg extended).

It sounds like people on this thread are using the term progressive to refer to quick, dance-style crossovers - am I right?

Since this is MIF and the rulebook specifically refers to crossovers, I would say to do crossovers. I've never had a coach use the term progressive - but my coaches have emphasized the importance of both pushes and making crossovers look smooth and not steppy or awkward. Obviously, there's more leeway for that on the Pre-Bronze test than on the Gold test. So for those who are working on Pre-Bronze MIF, just focus on making your crossovers the best they can be - equal pushes and power/flow, etc.

[renatele]

Admittedly part of the concern was that my CW are much weaker and so
probably do not look like proper progressives OR cross overs, but the
apparent differences that many of the previous posters have experienced
is quite worrying to me.

Is this something that is likely to be clarified, either nationally, or with some
local knowledge, or do people who learn both cross-overs and progressives
practise both and pick the right one on the day?

(I'm not a judge nor even a coach, so take the following with a grain of salt)

It would be fine if you did x-overs in both directions. It would also be fine if you did progressives in both directions. If, however, you do progressives in one direction and x-overs in another, the problem with the move is that both sides are not fairly equal - and THAT is bad.

[phoenix]

OK, I've been pretty confused about this whole forward crossover vs. progressive issue (I don't do dance, just MIF and FS) so tonight I asked one of the dance coaches about the difference between crossovers and progressives. He said that the difference is that a crossover has 2 pushes and a progressive has 3 - the third push being a repeat of the first push. So, in a crossover, you end up on an inside edge and in a progressive you end up on an outside edge (with free leg extended).

It sounds like people on this thread are using the term progressive to refer to quick, dance-style crossovers - am I right?


Well, that might be a way to define the steps if you're reading a dance pattern or something, but what people are discussing here is the fact that in a crossover the free foot steps over the skating foot and sets back down in the crossed position.....and in a progressive the free foot strikes the ice on an inside edge slightly in front of, but not crossed past, the skating foot, then crosses to the other side while it's gliding on the ice as the other foot pushes under. Hard to describe in writing! Once you know the difference it's very obvious when you watch someone do it. When you're good at it, the progressives have more power & present a longer line/extension than crossovers.

[dbny]

OK, I've been pretty confused about this whole forward crossover vs. progressive issue (I don't do dance, just MIF and FS) so tonight I asked one of the dance coaches about the difference between crossovers and progressives. He said that the difference is that a crossover has 2 pushes and a progressive has 3 - the third push being a repeat of the first push. So, in a crossover, you end up on an inside edge and in a progressive you end up on an outside edge (with free leg extended).

It sounds like people on this thread are using the term progressive to refer to quick, dance-style crossovers - am I right?


The dance coach gave you the definition for a progressive "run", which is 3 strokes, as he said. Often, the term "run" is used by itself. The term "progressive", OTOH, can be used either in dance or freestyle/moves to indicate the advanced form of FXO's. B progressives, by the way, do not involve any crossing over and are very unlikely to be confused with BXO's.

There are other moves in dance that are similar to XO's and some do appear in MIF. Step 7 in the 8 step Mohawk is one of them. That step is a Cross Front, which is not the same as a crossover. The crossing foot must be picked up and placed over the skating foot, never slid across for this step. Which reminds me that on the diagram of the new Pre Bronze 3 turn pattern, there is a Cross Front, but Phil executes it as a XO (which is what the written description says). Has anyone gotten any coaching on this yet? I wonder what it's really supposed to be. A Cross Front would look better, IMO, especially after the step to BO. It would also make the sequence the same as the last 3 steps of the 8 step Mohawk.

[PhysicistOnIce]

It would be fine if you did x-overs in both directions. It would also be fine if you did progressives in both directions. If, however, you do progressives in one direction and x-overs in another, the problem with the move is that both sides are not fairly equal - and THAT is bad.

That certainly makes sense!

I'm reasonably certain that in addition to the issue of symmetry there is also a concern that even correctly done progressives (in both directions) would be failed as they don't count as cross overs.

This is a bit confusing to me as I have heard anecdotal reports that at Bronze and above doing a cross over (i.e. a deliberate lifting of the foot and crossing above your skating foot before placing it on the ice) would be a definite fail, but apparantly it is a requirement to do them in this manner for the pre-Bronze test?

Has anyone taken pre-Bronze recently with progressives?

Oh and by "progressive" vs "cross-over" I'm refering to the path that the foot takes as it goes from being the free foot to the skating foot. There are two edges in both (say LFO then RFI for CCW) and two pushes in both.

[dbny]

That certainly makes sense!

I'm reasonably certain that in addition to the issue of symmetry there is also a concern that even correctly done progressives (in both directions) would be failed as they don't count as cross overs.

This is a bit confusing to me as I have heard anecdotal reports that at Bronze and above doing a cross over (i.e. a deliberate lifting of the foot and crossing above your skating foot before placing it on the ice) would be a definite fail, but apparantly it is a requirement to do them in this manner for the pre-Bronze test?

Has anyone taken pre-Bronze recently with progressives?

Oh and by "progressive" vs "cross-over" I'm refering to the path that the foot takes as it goes from being the free foot to the skating foot. There are two edges in both (say LFO then RFI for CCW) and two pushes in both.

I can't imagine anyone being failed for performing above the required level of proficiency! My former coach decided to take the MIF tests since that's what she was teaching, although she had come up during the era of figures. Of course she skated PrePre flawlessly and with power, speed, flow and precision that is rarely seen at that level. How bizarre it would have been to fail her!

The only case I can think of in which one might fail for performing above the required level is in ISI where the first BXO's must be done with a lifted crossing foot. Even that, however, can be done at an elite level, by lifting the foot ever so slightly as one crosses. If you watch elite skaters closely, you will see that from most of the Europeans. How foolish would any judge feel to have to fail someone because they were too good?


It would be fine if you did x-overs in both directions. It would also be fine if you did progressives in both directions. If, however, you do progressives in one direction and x-overs in another, the problem with the move is that both sides are not fairly equal - and THAT is bad.

I actually do not see that as a problem at all. You just need to demonstrate the required level of proficiency in both directions. Judges see skaters with uneven skills all the time. We all have one side stronger than the other, and that is especially apparant at the lower test levels. I can tell you from experience that PrePre passes with scratched three turns in the Waltz-8 on only one foot, with better FXO's in one direction than the other on F Perimeter Stroking, and with one leg higher than the other on Spirals. This kind of thing is pretty common.

[JulieN]

in a progressive the free foot strikes the ice on an inside edge slightly in front of, but not crossed past, the skating foot, then crosses to the other side while it's gliding on the ice as the other foot pushes under.
My coach is adament about having the free foot strike the ice beside the skating foot, and definitely not in front of, not even slightly.

I like to think of progressives as "cross-unders". Instead of crossing over, you place the free foot beside the skating foot (making sure that the blade touches the ice besides the skating foot), and cross the skating foot under, with a full extension.


do people who learn both cross-overs and progressives practise both and pick the right one on the day?
No... I only do progressives (although my coach would say sometimes I'm doing cross-overs -- like I said, she's very picky about progressives). It doesn't even feel right to do forward cross-overs anymore.


Has anyone taken pre-Bronze recently with progressives?
I took Pre-Pre, Pre, and Pre-Juv moves back in 1999, 2 years after I started dance. I think I did progressives but I don't remember. I went back and looked at my test papers, but none of the judges made any comments about that.


P.S. Hi, Julie! Long time no see!!! :D
Hi jazzpants!!! I totally missed the thread where you passed your Bronze moves! WOW -- congrats!!! 8-)

[jazzpants]

Hi jazzpants!!! I totally missed the thread where you passed your Bronze moves! WOW -- congrats!!! 8-)Thanks! (See? Told 'ya you've been off a while! LOL!!!) :lol:

Going full steam with passing Bronze FS now... trying doing some major catchup on jumps and spins... mighty frustrated right now trying to get a consistent loop or a flip! :frus:

[vesperholly]

At the moment, I'm running 256 kbs adsl modem speed, and trying to download silver 4. I've tried to download it 10 times already, and each time the download cuts out from between say 50 percent to 90 percent of the full file. There might be a problem with their server because I don't have problems downloading much bigger files from other sites from around the world. Anybody else having similar issues with the downloads?
I'm on el-cheapo cable internet, and every file I downloaded timed out on the first try. The second try worked fine, though - and if I download say 50%, when I try the second time it goes right back to 50% and finishes from there.

[Award]

I'm on el-cheapo cable internet, and every file I downloaded timed out on the first try. The second try worked fine, though - and if I download say 50%, when I try the second time it goes right back to 50% and finishes from there.

I see ... thanks. Yeah...I had a fair bit of trouble with silver 3 and silver 4. I tried about 15 times or more, each, before it finally got lucky with a complete download.

When you say download 50%, does this mean that your download resumes from 50% next time, so that you don't have to start downloading from scratch?

Or did you mean that if you could only get 50%, then you start downloading again, it will only reach 50% and stop every time, meaning that you can't download the file completely?

[sk8pics]

My 2 cents on progressives vs. crossovers at pre-bronze... I think if you are doing progressives, you could get into trouble if you don't have a good push under, which might be a problem for skaters working at that level. In other words, if you don't cross the outside foot over but just put it down next to the other foot (or slightly in front) and then you also don't clearly push under so your feet are in a crossed over position, then it won't look like you're doing either. I know I had that problem on my CW forward crossovers. It didn't always look like I was crossing if I did them as a progressive-style of crossover, and that probably would have failed me on that part of the move.

[sk8pics]

Which reminds me that on the diagram of the new Pre Bronze 3 turn pattern, there is a Cross Front, but Phil executes it as a XO (which is what the written description says). Has anyone gotten any coaching on this yet? I wonder what it's really supposed to be.

Well, I remember we had the pattern sheets and read the description and that's how he skated it. I will mention this to TPTB and see if something needs to be clarified.

[Award]

I like to think of progressives as "cross-unders". Instead of crossing over, you place the free foot beside the skating foot (making sure that the blade touches the ice besides the skating foot), and cross the skating foot under, with a full extension.

If it was me, I'd just call it 'pass-unders', or 'slide-unders', or maybe 'drive-unders'. I think 'cross-under' is quite ambiguous, even though some teachers call it that.

[Skate@Delaware]

I haven't received any coaching on the new pattern yet; my coach is attending a seminar on Sunday so I'm hoping they cover the new pattern there. Maybe they will talk about whether or not it's a cross in front or a crossover.

As far as progressives vs. crossovers, she just has me work on them all the time. Whether or not I do one or the other on the test I don't know, although it might be crossovers (she has me working on deepening my edges and lobes and trying to get my feet closer together, which I have a hard time wanting to do 8O ). It's always something, isn't it?

[PhysicistOnIce]

My 2 cents on progressives vs. crossovers at pre-bronze... I think if you are doing progressives, you could get into trouble if you don't have a good push under, which might be a problem for skaters working at that level. In other words, if you don't cross the outside foot over but just put it down next to the other foot (or slightly in front) and then you also don't clearly push under so your feet are in a crossed over position, then it won't look like you're doing either. I know I had that problem on my CW forward crossovers. It didn't always look like I was crossing if I did them as a progressive-style of crossover, and that probably would have failed me on that part of the move.

Yes, I think that is it, thanks!

Going back over the lesson I think that was exactly the concern, that a progressive executed by someone who is at a very low level (e.g. me) would look like it only had one push, rather than two distinct pushes, each of which is producing power.

Thanks everyone for your comments and suggestions!

[froggy]

There are other moves in dance that are similar to XO's and some do appear in MIF. Step 7 in the 8 step Mohawk is one of them. That step is a Cross Front, which is not the same as a crossover. The crossing foot must be picked up and placed over the skating foot, never slid across for this step. Which reminds me that on the diagram of the new Pre Bronze 3 turn pattern, there is a Cross Front, but Phil executes it as a XO (which is what the written description says). Has anyone gotten any coaching on this yet? I wonder what it's really supposed to be. A Cross Front would look better, IMO, especially after the step to BO. It would also make the sequence the same as the last 3 steps of the 8 step Mohawk.[/QUOTE]


While learning the 3-turn pattern with my coach, I was taught that it is NOT a crossover but rather a push onto a BO with the free foot picked up held over the tracing while gliding on the BO and then placed over and across the skating foot onto a BI.

[Morgail]

Re cross-front v. cross-over in the pre-bronze 3 turn pattern:

What exactly is a cross-front? I've been working on this pattern, and my coach taught it as a back cross over and then BI mohawk/step forward. I don't do a cross over in the sense of picking up the foot and then putting it down on the other side of the skating foot. Instead I do the kind of back cross over where you slide the crossing foot around into the cross position while keeping both feet on the ice (which my coach said was fine to do). I'm doing these for the back crossover circles too. Is that actually a cross-front?

Another thing about this pattern: this is the first that I've read/seen that it is supposed to be done down the length of the ice, rather than the width. 8O That means more 3-turn lobes!! :frus: Must email my coach the link to these videos & diagrams!

Thanks for posting the link to these videos! :bow:

[Debbie S]

What exactly is a cross-front? I've been working on this pattern, and my coach taught it as a back cross over and then BI mohawk/step forward. My instinct would be that it is supposed to be a back crossover. The cross-front that everyone here is referring to would be picking up the foot that is not on the BO edge and then placing it in front (crossed over) of that foot on a BI edge. A crossover, as you do in the crossover figure 8's, is when that foot stays on the ice and pushes outward, as the first push, and then the second push comes as you push your other foot underneath.

I think a crossover in this move makes much more sense, b/c it would be difficult for a Pre-Bronze skater to generate much power or movement (I realize power/continuous flow is not a focus for this move, but you still need to get back to the axis line) with just a cross-front. After all, that doesn't appear on any other adult moves until the Silver test, and the 8-step is on the Juv test in the standard track!

But the rulebook is very unclear, and I wondered about that myself when the new move was announced. It would be good to have clarification from TPTB.

Yes, the move occurs along the long axis of the rink, not the short axis. That is a change from the alt 3's, which are done across one of the blue (or red) lines. I don't think there is a max or min in the number of lobes required, but the judges are obviously looking for good, circular lobes (result of good edge quality) and for you to maintain flow between each turn and lobe and transition. Checking each turn is important or you will slide off-pattern.

[doubletoe]

I can't remember whether it was my Intermediate Moves or Adult Gold Moves Test, but one of the judges made a comment on my forward power circle -- "not true crossovers" because I did progressives instead of crossovers. IIRC, she still passed me, but I thought it was interesting that she pointed it out.

Was that comment in reference to the fast crossovers at the very end? Was it because you were moving your feet so quickly? I could imagine myself doing that, too (I'm planning to take the Intermediate test within the next few months).

[doubletoe]

OK, I've been pretty confused about this whole forward crossover vs. progressive issue (I don't do dance, just MIF and FS) so tonight I asked one of the dance coaches about the difference between crossovers and progressives. He said that the difference is that a crossover has 2 pushes and a progressive has 3 - the third push being a repeat of the first push. So, in a crossover, you end up on an inside edge and in a progressive you end up on an outside edge (with free leg extended).


So if you're doing CCW forward crossovers, does that mean LFO, RFI (cross), LFO? If so, then what are the next 3 steps?

[dbny]

So if you're doing CCW forward crossovers, does that mean LFO, RFI (cross), LFO? If so, then what are the next 3 steps?

You just described a progressive run. You can have more than one run in a row, but in most dances, you see a run followed by something else. One example would be in the Fiesta Tango, where you've got a F progressive run beginning on the LFO, RF XRoll, LF XB, RF SwRoll, F progressive run, RFI Mohawk. Of course if you're skating MIF, then you are not doing progressive runs, but rather progressive style FXO's.

[Morgail]

My instinct would be that it is supposed to be a back crossover. The cross-front that everyone here is referring to would be picking up the foot that is not on the BO edge and then placing it in front (crossed over) of that foot on a BI edge. A crossover, as you do in the crossover figure 8's, is when that foot stays on the ice and pushes outward, as the first push, and then the second push comes as you push your other foot underneath.

Thanks! I think I understand the difference now. Looking at the diagram again, I see where it says "X front", which does make the whole thing confusing. I hope they clear that up.

[techskater]

We've had several people pass here with the PB Adult 3 turn pattern using a x over, not a cross front.

[icedancer2]

FWIW the Power 3s also say XFront and we all know that you do a power cross-over at that point.

They have labeled the moves on the website so you don't have to guess what "Silver 5", etc., is.

:)

[Mrs Redboots]

One example would be in the Fiesta Tango, where you've got a F progressive run beginning on the LFO, RF XRoll, LF XB, RF SwRoll, F progressive run, RFI Mohawk. Of course if you're skating MIF, then you are not doing progressive runs, but rather progressive style FXO's.Er - those aren't the steps that we do in the Fiesta Tango!

We do:
LFO
RFO
LFO/RFI run (progressive)
LFO (where I invariably fail to extend properly, which is why I comment on it as I'm competing the dance this season and need to remember)
cross to RFO
cross behind to LFI
RFO-I change of edge (6 beats)
LFO
RFI/LBO Mohawk and so on

Are the steps different in the USA?

[russiet]

At the moment, I'm running 256 kbs adsl modem speed, and trying to download silver 4. I've tried to download it 10 times already, and each time the download cuts out from between say 50 percent to 90 percent of the full file. There might be a problem with their server because I don't have problems downloading much bigger files from other sites from around the world. Anybody else having similar issues with the downloads?

Exactly the same problem. I downloaded everything at work where I have a fast connection, but Silver 3 & 4 always terminate before completon. It says something like "server reset".

[phoenix]

Er - those aren't the steps that we do in the Fiesta Tango!

We do:
LFO
RFO
LFO/RFI run (progressive)
LFO (where I invariably fail to extend properly, which is why I comment on it as I'm competing the dance this season and need to remember)
cross to RFO
cross behind to LFI
RFO-I change of edge (6 beats)
LFO
RFI/LBO Mohawk and so on

Are the steps different in the USA?

Those are the USA steps too. I think maybe dbny was thinking of a different dance......not recognizing it at the moment though.

[Award]

Exactly the same problem. I downloaded everything at work where I have a fast connection, but Silver 3 & 4 always terminate before completon. It says something like "server reset".

Thanks a lot for confirming that. It took a heck of a lot of attempts before I finally got lucky with a full download. Lot of attempts. I'll confirm what you saw, about the server reset thing....that's the message I saw alright.

[icedancer2]

Those are the USA steps too. I think maybe dbny was thinking of a different dance......not recognizing it at the moment though.

Maybe a ROLLER dance???????????????????????:lol: 8-)

[dbny]

Er - those aren't the steps that we do in the Fiesta Tango!

We do:
LFO
RFO
LFO/RFI run (progressive)
LFO (where I invariably fail to extend properly, which is why I comment on it as I'm competing the dance this season and need to remember)
cross to RFO
cross behind to LFI
RFO-I change of edge (6 beats)
LFO
RFI/LBO Mohawk and so on

Are the steps different in the USA?

Nope. Same dance, starting after the progressive and forgetting the change of edge on swing roll. That "cross to RFO" is a cross roll, since you are going from LFO to RFO, and there is a swing with the 6 beat RFO-I change of edge, bringing the free leg back on the I edge for the last 2 beats. Guess I should have looked in the book at the diagram, though, for clarity.

[dbny]

Maybe a ROLLER dance???????????????????????:lol: 8-)

Actually, the roller dance is very similar, and maybe even the same. I don't remember it all that well.

[aussieskater]

Er - those aren't the steps that we do in the Fiesta Tango!

We do:
LFO
RFO
LFO/RFI run (progressive)
LFO (where I invariably fail to extend properly, which is why I comment on it as I'm competing the dance this season and need to remember)
cross to RFO
cross behind to LFI
RFO-I change of edge (6 beats)
LFO
RFI/LBO Mohawk and so on

Are the steps different in the USA?

Thank you Mrs RB! I was too unsure to post that the steps were different from what I understand the Fiasco Tangle to be - but I did spend considerable time pacing it around the carpet trying (and failing!) to reconcile the steps as listed by dbny with what I know of the Fiesta :lol:

[emma]

Was that comment in reference to the fast crossovers at the very end? Was it because you were moving your feet so quickly? I could imagine myself doing that, too (I'm planning to take the Intermediate test within the next few months).
I just passed my Intermediate moves and they want to see a very distinct push with both feet on each crossover while increasing speed and circle size. Many failed this move because the judges said the crossovers were to "steppy". The judges at our rink failed 5 out of 7 IM's because of lack of power and many judges said lack of confidence on the ice. IM are where the judges no longer let you get away with things they may let slide before. Good luck.

[vesperholly]

I see ... thanks. Yeah...I had a fair bit of trouble with silver 3 and silver 4. I tried about 15 times or more, each, before it finally got lucky with a complete download.

When you say download 50%, does this mean that your download resumes from 50% next time, so that you don't have to start downloading from scratch?

Or did you mean that if you could only get 50%, then you start downloading again, it will only reach 50% and stop every time, meaning that you can't download the file completely?
Downloading resumed from 50%.

[Award]

Downloading resumed from 50%.

Thanks a lot for clarifying that. I will have to look for a good http type download managing program for firefox browser to overcome the instability issue.