Learn-to-Skate Kids on High Free Sessions

[lovepairs]

I'm starting this thread, so that we can begin to have a broad discussion about overall rink/club management, and maybe find a way to solve some of these problems. I'd like to open this discussion by asking the following question:

How many of you have "toddlers" barely out of diapers on freestyle, or high level freestyle sessions, with their proud parents at the side boards looking on, while high level skaters, pairs and dance teams wizz by the kid who should be in the Learn-to-Skate sessions/program. You can identify these kids easily, because they are usually under 2' tall, barely weighing 50 lbs, no awareness, no body control, with cute little skating dresses, adorned with helmets.

Can anyone please tell me what these parents and coaches are thinking?!

[rf3ray]

I think that there trying to get if of their children really quickly, or claim there childs life insurance. Nice way to do it though

[phoenix]

We have this problem all year & it's very dangerous! For both the big ones and the little ones, and it has always appalled me that the parents don't get that. Mainly it's the group class kids, looking down at their feet, and puttering around in one little spot on the ice.

The solution is terribly simple: designate practice sessions (they only need 1 or 2 a week!) that are solely for the kiddies, and require a certain skill level to be allowed on the other practice sessions.

My rink is run by idiots, so that will never happen. All they see is money coming in.

I distinctly recall one instance years ago when a 3 year old (dressed exactly like you said, btw!!) was always out on the freestyle sessions. Several of us almost killed ourselves bailing out of things in frantic efforts to avoid hitting her. Several of us complained to rink management, who actually did have a word with the parents. The parents balked, saying she was "a real figure skater" and deserved to be on figure skating ice---and the rink backed down. :roll: :roll:

I've seen similar things at lots of rinks, so it seems to be a wide spread problem. I just can't believe no one's gotten seriously hurt.

[Isk8NYC]

Most rinks in my area won't allow a rookie on a freestyle without a coach. In fact, my home rink kind of "hides" the freestyle schedule from the parents to avoid this situation. (It's printed on our Elite skaters brochure, which is only for skaters who've passed a USFSA MITF/Freestyle/Dance test.)

As a coach, I really don't like having beginners on the freestyle sessions, although there are times when it's needed. When kids are skating in a competition at a low level (like ISI Tot), they have to practice their routines to music and a freestyle's the only way to do it.

I have a 11-year old beginner who's been skating on a semi-freestyle session for a few months. (The session ended two weeks ago) She's only on for her 30-minute lesson and I'm with her the whole time. I say it's a "semi-freestyle" session because the ice is actually reserved for our Elite Skaters program. There are three groups of 8-10 skaters learning/practicing some fairly high-level maneuvers. But, they're in groups, so they stay in a specific area of the ice and are supervised by a coach. So, it's okay that I keep this kid in a corner, or bring her around the perimeter of the rink. The truth? The kid's scared to leave my side because she's concerned about getting whacked by one of the other skaters. I spoke to the mother yesterday about summer ice time and I explained that her daughter would be intimidated by a "real freestyle" since it's the same number of skaters but everyone's doing something on their own, often without supervision.

So, I agree that putting a rookie on a freestyle by her/himself that's busy and fast is foolish. But, having a kid take a lesson or practice a routine with a coach, that's okay. When I see this situation, I take the kid and the parents aside and explain that it's a bit scary out there and go over the freestyle rules with both parties. (Who has right-of-way, stay near the wall, what corner to avoid, etc.)

[blue111moon]

My club is too small and the ice time is too limited to split sessions by levels. However, we do have one session following group lessons where Learn-to-Skaters have the right of way and any higher test skaters who elect to skate on that session MUST yield to and look out for the others. Learn-to-skaters who want to skate on the remaining sessions must be having a lesson and must have joined Junior Club. It keeps the chaos down and injuries are rare.

[Debbie S]

One of the rinks where I (and pairman and lovepairs) skate did print out specific rules listing who was allowed on FS sessions and such. As pairman said in the other thread, you are supposed to be in at least FS 1 to be on a freestyle session, and there are also "low FS" sessions where skaters have to be in Basic 5 (I think) or higher to skate there. There is an "asterisk" to these rules, though, and that is if a skater has a private lesson, they are allowed on, but they're supposed to leave the ice when their lesson is over, but this is never enforced (actually, I do sort of agree that the kid should be able to stay for the entire session, b/c the parents did pay the ice fee - but the problem is that kids skate sessions where they don't have lessons).

I will say, though, that I still think it's safer for a beginner to be practicing on FS ice rather than public sessions - I agree that the solution might be to have a "beginners" session once a week. The problem is that it probably wouldn't be profitable for the rink, since the lion's share of their money comes from higher-level skaters, and as others have pointed out, rinks generally value their bottom line above all else. And a problem with so-called low sessions that I frequently see is that high-level skaters will get on and practice things that really don't belong but technically don't violate the rules, like Senior MIF patterns, high-level dances, flying camels - OK, they're not double and triple jumps, but still....

[jenlyon60]

The rink I skate at does this... allows LTS kids on FS sessions. Our "during the school year" afternoon FS sessions are supposed to be capped at about 25 skaters, but there's often as many as 30-35, at levels ranging from Senior FS down to "can barely stop" plus the occasional private lesson hockey skills skater.

I don't have a major problem with this as long as the LTS skater is with the coach, if it's a LTS private lesson. The problem is after or before the lesson, and these skaters are often so focused on what they just learned that they are oblivious to the skaters around them.

I have seen many near accidents (I've been in a few close calls while doing compulsory dance with my coach during my lesson.)

Yesterday, we had the camp kids on the same freestyle as 2 senior ladies. The other sheet of ice was supposedly dead ice but one of the hockey teams took it over. I have no idea how it's going to be today.

[Skate@Delaware]

This brings up what typically happens during our club ice time...LTS kids and adults on the same ice as higher level freestylers; but no one really following the ice rules :frus: ! We have kids from ages 4 to an adult aged 73. It gets quite busy. Add competition practice and it's maddening!

I believe this coming year they are going to split the ice into high/low times but this opens up another can of worms. High is for the skaters that have all their single jumps. Several of us "bigger" skaters don't have all our single jumps but we can still move pretty fast and if we are on the ice with the little kids....8O And, they are still allowed on high ice if they are in a lesson (and who will make sure they leave when their lesson is over? and, they do get to warm-up so they get some warm-up time so that blows the high/low right there in my opinion).

If they just appointed an ice monitor in the first place some of the collisions/near hits could have been avoided. And, everyone SIGNS the ice rules, but they don't necessarily abide by them.....:twisted:

[xofivebyfive]

This is why I don't practice on freestyle sessions unless I'm getting a lesson from my coach. I'm still in Freestyle one so I kind of feel inferior to the other girls(and guys sometimes) who are doing double jumps and freakishly amazing spins around me. Our rink lets anyone who is taking private lessons use the freestyle ice, but there are open, low and high sessions so that makes it slightly better and easier for me to stay out of the way of most of the better skaters. But it's annoying even for me when there are 5 years olds just wandering around the ice, and just keep going straight in the direction that I'm going backwards in, so I have to bail out of what I'm doing so I don't crush the poor thing.

[doubletoe]

What? You mean some freestyle sessions actually have rules? And some rinks/clubs actually make you sign them? What a dream that would be, LOL! My club freestyle session is all about bringing in the bucks and I have never even heard of any rules. I personally think a skater needs to have either passed the first MIF test or be in a lesson in order to be on a FS session (unless they divide them up and offer a low level FS, which our rink doesn't).
I don't mind if a little kid is on the freestyle ice during a lesson, but little kids should never be left alone because they are completely oblivious to their environment and also don't have the skating skills to get out of the way of a skater who is skating her program. I think some of these parents are really blind; it's not about whether a child should have the "right" to skate on a freestyle session, it's about whether the child is safe skating on the freestyle session! Defensive skating means the ability to avoid running into people but it also means the ability to get out of another skater's way, especially if that skater is skating her program or is in a lesson.

[skaternum]

Quite frankly, this is one of the side benefits of requiring you to be a club member to use club ice, as my club does. We do it primarily for financial reasons, but it has the effect of limiting club ice to those who are more advanced. Most people don't join USFSA until they need to take a USFSA test, so you've almost got a de facto minimum limit there.

[Isk8NYC]

I don't mind if a little kid is on the freestyle ice during a lesson, but little kids should never be left alone because they are completely oblivious to their environment and also don't have the skating skills to get out of the way of a skater who is skating her program. I think some of these parents are really blind; it's not about whether a child should have the "right" to skate on a freestyle session, it's about whether the child is safe skating on the freestyle session! I agree with all your points. I would like to point out the ice availability/schedule often causes this problem. If the only time their child can skate is a freestyle session, many parents will take the chance. That's why most rinks don't post/distribute the freestyle schedule: to keep the sessions from enticing parents of rookies. Rinks with a generous public session schedule don't have to deal with this often.

Think about your rink: what does the schedule afford for working parents or kids in school/camp? If the rink offers an early evening freestyle, but no similar publics, the parents will consider putting the kid on there. We have to offer them options that are safer and more consumer-conscious.

Skating on Club ice is a great solution, if the rules are enforced. Given that many Clubs also run the LTS sessions, it gets harder for them to turn away their LTS students. Can you really "appoint" an ice monitor? Many of the Clubs I've belonged to are begging for volunteers. No one wants to be the bad guy or to be tied down to a responsibility if they also work.

[Skate@Delaware]

Isk8NYC, You bring up many good points. It's true there are no sessions available for practice (public) at my rink after school other than club ice. This forces the little ones to skate ON club ice. Sometimes the weekend public sessions are very crowded and even more dangerous than club ice.

We have people clammoring to be music monitors but no one wants to be ice monitors. But don't the coach's have a responsibility to remind their students of the rules every now and again (especially when they SEE them commit an infraction)? And shouldn't we say something also? I know I do.....it may not get me any new friends but I'm there to skate safely.

I know I'm preaching to the choir so I'll shut up now. :lol:

[Isk8NYC]

Many rinks tie the LTS program with practice ice. For example, a 30min lesson followed by 30 minutes of practice time. Other rinks offer free admission to the public sessions for the duration of the LTS session.

One of the skating school directors I met at the ISI conference mentioned that they have a Saturday morning LTS practice session. Parents are welcome to skate with the student, and they can bring friends for a small fee. Initially, I didn't like the "come back later another day" approach, but given this thread, it's probably a good solution that would keep them off the freestyles.

[doubletoe]

Think about your rink: what does the schedule afford for working parents or kids in school/camp? If the rink offers an early evening freestyle, but no similar publics, the parents will consider putting the kid on there. We have to offer them options that are safer and more consumer-conscious.

Yeah, I guess I hadn't thought of that. We have evening public sessions that start at 8:00pm, but they are on Sundays and Thursdays (school nights). The other public sessions are on Saturday and Sunday during the day.

[Isk8NYC]

Your rink's not alone: how many weeknights between 5 and 8 are filled with hockey programs? We had one (1) half-hour freestyle at 5:30pm. All the other freestyles were in the early mornings or the early afternoons. My kids can't skate regularly at the rink I teach at because of the scheduling. But, hockey rules, right?

Then rink managers/skating directors wonder why "National Skating Week" campaigns don't really result in many skating school/hockey clinic registrations. It's because one event or one week just isn't enough to get people hooked on spending several hundred dollars for a beginner. You need to keep bringin' 'em back for a few weeks to decide they/the skaters like it enough to pull out their wallets.

If more rinks offered well-timed public sessions instead of locking up prime-family-ice-time with hockey and figure skating, more skaters would be looking to come into the LTS/LTP prorams when they're ready instead of "being in the way." An added bonus is that the skaters would achieve more when they start lessons if they had some practice time available. Rink managers don't view public sessions as "feeders" for their other programs, and that's a problem. They feel that, if the public session isn't jam-packed, it's a failure. When you have an empty public session, you need fewer guards on the ice, there are fewer injuries, and it's an opportunity to "sell" the rink and its staff. Instead, many rinks just cut the public sessions because they can make more money renting the ice to a hockey league or skating club.

[froggy]

At my freestyle session the kids range from singles to doubles (no double lutz nor double axel). I'm probably the weakest of the bunch but I have a good idea of many of the girls' programs and I can realize the set ups of jumps to get out of their way. I really have no idea if they are annoyed if I'm there or not, but there are no rules posted about the level you need to be on the session and the skating director did not mention anything otherwise to me. It's quite difficult to get ice time in the summer, and this is the chance I have to skate with few skaters on the ice and practice both freestyle and MITF.

[Isk8NYC]

We have people clamoring to be music monitors but no one wants to be ice monitors.That's normal: most people want to control the music, if only to make sure their little Susie gets her share, or to prevent a "tape hog" from going out of control.

Ice monitoring is a tough one to get volunteers for: you have to be willing to confront parents/skaters who aren't playing nicely. Many clubs offer a $$ discount or rebate (in the form of a punch card) to attract takers.

Yes, all the coaches on that session should be on the same page in terms of rules. That's the Skating Director or Club Head Pro's responsibility. A visiting pro can be cut some slack, but not for long. I taught at a rink nearby where, out of the blue, the Club President decided all "On Program" skaters had to wear a sash. She enforced it for one day, and it was great. Within a month, my students were the only ones still wearing the sash.

[beachbabe]

i've never really been shocked to see yet another 5 year old on freestyle ice with a frilly dress, a helmet and an $800 pair of skates. Its very annoying but at the same time, its not the parents fault. There really isn't a more appropriate session for the kid to be on. A public session is even more hazardous and we don't have sessions for kids.

Usually I just try to stay well clear of the child. What does bug me, is when the kids are on an intermediate freestyle when there is a low freestyle session jsut 30min. before. I'm sure that talking to the parents wouldn't solve the problem either because they all think their baby is "a REAL figure skater"

[lovepairs]

We have this problem all year & it's very dangerous! For both the big ones and the little ones, and it has always appalled me that the parents don't get that. Mainly it's the group class kids, looking down at their feet, and puttering around in one little spot on the ice.

The solution is terribly simple: designate practice sessions (they only need 1 or 2 a week!) that are solely for the kiddies, and require a certain skill level to be allowed on the other practice sessions.

My rink is run by idiots, so that will never happen. All they see is money coming in.

Okay, I'd like to clarify this to get this back on track:

Isk8NYC,

The 11 year olds who have awareness and some body control are not a problem with, or without a coach. I'm specifically talking about the Toddlers, who are 4-5 years old, still babies, with no body control and awareness. Even with a coach these little ones are dangerous and in danger. It's ironic that I posted this thread today, because I skated a session with one pair team, one upper level dance team, three freestylers with doubles, and adult single skater doing axels, and 5 babies around 6 and under with, yes 'o yes, daddy standing their with gleaming eyes looking on while his little princess found her way through a WAR ZONE! I'll get back to this in a minute...

Phoenix,

You are right on target with everything that you said (see above quote.)

Okay, it seems that we are all having this problem. The toddlers really belong in the Learn-to-Skate sessions. Rink management for the most part won't correct this, very few clubs have anyone monitoring sessions (even if rules are in place,) so, my question now is there anything we can agree to do "collectively" to try to solve this problem? I mean, the only ones who can really look out for these babies' safety are the adult skaters, because it seems that their parents are clueless, and the clubs and rinks are unable to enforce structure, or don't want to because of $$$. Do these little princesses really have to get hurt before Adults do something about it? Any ideas?

[Skate@Delaware]

This was an issue that has been talked about repeatedly, but $$$ wins out. To keep from losing club members, the requirement is loosely-enforced "proficient in back crossovers OR working with a coach" requirement to join our club.

We do have practice sessions before/after LTS lessons and two public skate sessions (Saturday and Sunday). There is an open "freestyle" session during the week, it's just a skate session for figure skaters and hockey players for skills development. Three club ice sessions during the week. Everything else is hockey. My rink's emphasis is recreational. And hockey. :roll:

So, for now, the little kids are allowed to skate on club ice (but ice dancers were banned because they were "dangerous" even though they dodged everyone and more accidents happened with the little kids).

We will see how it goes in the fall with the new "high/low" sessions.

[manleywoman]

There's a rink just 1.5 miles from me that's perfectly nice, and is only $5/hour. But I don't slate there specifically because of this problem (and because their coaches really suck). I'm perfectly content to drive 25 minutes to the suburbs and pay $9/hour to have ice that's designated by level (and with great coaching and allows me to patch). For my extra time and money I get much more accomplished.

[Terri C]

This is a really good thread and come to think of it, there was a incident at my rink two weeks ago.
Little girl about 5 or 6, cute dress, on lesson.
Teenage girl with dance coach on lesson
Dance coach and student are whizzing by and collide with little girl. Dancer's free leg with blade hit little girl in the thigh, and went right through her tights/
IMHO, both parties (dance skaters and Little Girl's coach) are at fault. People need to look out at all times,period. I've had to dodge both the dancers and this coach's students on my lessons several times!!

[Isk8NYC]

I taught Mommy and Me for several years. That's a toddler-specific class we designed to be a good intro to skating for tots, and threw in a mom/dad lesson as well. It was generally a great experience for the kids as well as the parents. (If the KID wanted to skate, that is...;) ) I put on kids' music, we played with toys and held skating games. Nothing too formal, just a quiet, fun session without a lot of skate traffic. That's the ideal environment. Many of the kids who came through that class stuck with skating and are now very good hockey players and figure skaters.

As for my 11-year old student, she doesn't belong on a freestyle without a bodyguard and she knows it, I just had to explain it to the Mom in terms she could understand.

What can you do? How about telling every parent of a out-of-place tot that they should ask the office about a beginner's practice session. Call and inquire yourself - try to drum up interest among parents you know. If enough people ask, the skating school may comply. (Depends on how much pull they have with the rink schedule.)

[dbny]

I just want to point out one advantage of allowing younger kids on a freestyle when in a lesson with a (vigilant) coach. This year I taught a 6 yr old who came up with me through the Mommy & Me. The only time available for both of us was a freestyle. Over the course of the season, I saw this child go from clueless to acutely aware. I was right with her every second and was frequently pointing out skaters as they approached and telling her things like "let's move over here to be out of x's way". I do not think she is quite ready to be on a freestyle unaccompanied, but it is more because she isn't yet fast enough, than because of a lack of awareness. I think one of the big problems on freestyle sessions is the coach who does not teach her/his students to watch out for others.

[VegasGirl]

Nope, don't have that problem here...

[vesperholly]

My club has the sessions divided by USFSA test level. The highest level is Juvenile Free and up - at least 2 and on several days 3 hours of Juv+ ice. The lowest is Badge (LTS) to Prelim, and there are some sessions that are Badge to PreJuv, and PreJuv and up.

They used to call the sessions "Junior" and "Senior" but we got too many parents concerned about the impact on their children from being "Junior" skaters ( :roll: ) so they switched to test level. When I was on the board, I had to push and push to get ice Juv+ (we have a lot of high-level kids even though we're not a major training center, and could probably fill Int+ sessions pretty well.) This is good too because if certain sessions get too crowded, they can restrict to Pre-Juv+ or Prelim+.

Enrollment is restricted to 18 skaters on Juv+ sessions and 21 on Badge sessions. The coaches want it to be 16 for Juv+ and 18 for Badge.

Our ice starts at 2:30pm 3 days a week (3:30pm for 2 days) and goes to 6:30pm and on some days as late as 7:30pm. We have 2 days of early am (7:30) ice and 3 hours of Saturday morning ice.

BUT...we are located at a 4-sheet facility. Makes it a lot easier to barter with hockey. As for having it easy, before the facility was built in 1998 (directly coinciding with my leaving the area for college), I skated at two separate, single-sheet rinks that were built in the 1960s.

The rink runs public sessions, including an "open figure skate" which is for figure skaters only (but no coaching) AND an "open dance" for dancers (!!). These sessions are often deserted since they're in the middle of the day, but we get all manner of skills on there. Today we had a guy doing clean 2axels and 3sals, and a Pre-Pre little girl who would skate TOWARD you while you were spinning. :frus:

[Mercedeslove]

I distinctly recall one instance years ago when a 3 year old (dressed exactly like you said, btw!!) was always out on the freestyle sessions. Several of us almost killed ourselves bailing out of things in frantic efforts to avoid hitting her. Several of us complained to rink management, who actually did have a word with the parents. The parents balked, saying she was "a real figure skater" and deserved to be on figure skating ice---and the rink backed down. :roll: :roll:

I've seen similar things at lots of rinks, so it seems to be a wide spread problem. I just can't believe no one's gotten seriously hurt.


That's exactly why skate moms piss me off. She is not at all a real figure skater but something in the way of those who are real figure skaters. I'd give up trying to avoid hitting her. Maybe if she got hurt her parents would see she ius a waste of space at that session and take her off the ice.

[jazzpants]

Well, you guys know that I recently had a collision with a kid and I ended up with a nasty scar and at least a week off from skating. The kid that I tripped over seems to be a very beginning FS skater (or even a learn to skate kid.) The problem is... this occurred on a low FS/moves session and the kid was with a coach (who just happens to be the rink manager, so well, the rink management knows of the incident!!! :P ) Needless to say, I have to be the adult and try to avoid her by going to another FS session!

*sigh* Well, let's put it this way... the kid is still skating on FS sessions... and wouldn't you know it -- she's on the session where I take lessons with my primary coach again!!! 8O I wanted to take lessons in the mornings to AVOID HER!!! AUGH!!! :evil: :frus:

[sk8pics]

This happens at the rinks where I skate, too. Of course the parents are partly at fault for putting their very small children out on inappropriate sessions, but I think a lot of the blame goes to the coaches. True, some coaches (like DBNY!) teach their small students about staying out of the way, being alert, and so on, but I see a number of coaches (mostly young) who are themselves totally oblivious to what is going on around them, and who let their students toddle around the ice "skating" their "program" totally alone in the middle of a moderately crowded session. In fact, one time, said coach let the child skate in a hooded jacket with the hood up so she didn't even have any peripheral vision. 8O :frus: It's just so dumb, and I hate to think of the kid being injured as a result.

On the other hand, what also drives me crazy is the reverse situation: senior level skaters and international dance teams flying around the ice on open sessions. Come on, they have plenty of sessions during the day they can skate on. They don't need to take over the open sessions, too.:twisted:

It all comes down to money, IMO. The rinks are not going to tell someone they can't skate if it comes down to $$. Perhaps it will take a serious injury and lawsuit before they do. At least you'd think they could review the rules of the ice with the coaches, and penalize coaches who don't follow the, but then again it still comes down to $$. Unfortunately, I think most of the coaches don't seem to think the issue of tiny tots on freestyle sessions IS an issue.

[pairman2]

How to fix it:

A lot of poster's have the right idea. Here's my list of where to focus:

Skating Directors: They KNOW the difference between proficient and toddler skaters. They are the hub between coaches, parents, club officials, rink management. No matter which entity is paying their salary or what structure sponsors the FS program, they are the hub. Have a meeting with the director. Point out the liability issues. Ask for a copy of the freestyle rules an minimum skill levels, if such a document exists. Ask him or her to enforce what's in place. If no rules exist, ask the club or the rink or both to develop rules.

Coaches: In most cases, it is coaches seeking revenue that causes the rules to be stretched or even broken. They will invariable ascent to any request to teach a 'pre-skater'. On the one hand I can sympathize with the parent who wants to start out a kid on the fast track and the coach who wants the money. However, there has to be a better context to teach the toddlers.The coach pockets the money, the higher level skaters (read: long dedicated customers) leave the program and find better ice elsewhere and the rink management declares that progress is being made! ;) 6 months later, the little girl and her parents decide to start her in ballet instead!!!!......go figure....
Management, meaning the rink, club etc MUST have rules and have both the will and the strength to keep coaches operating within boundaries that are helpful to the whole program and does not just benefit a coaches short term gain.

Learn to skate: Beleive it or not, USFSA has materials describing a 'bridge program' to get kids from LTS over to freestyle. My guess is that management, directors and coaches will alway bend to financial pressures first and anything else second. So if you can't beat-em, join em on the money front. At my rink, they are currently enjoying a LTS that's huge. (and I've seen this repeatedly) Rarely do they capitalize on it and retain anything more then a small fraction of those skaters. If I were a director or management, I would look out at that packed LTS rink and see 50 long term customers who might spend thousands $$$$$ of dollars over the next 5-10 years. If a LTS, PART 2 was created/packaged as an open coaching session/ low freestyle, I beleive this would qualify as a good bridge program and the LTS numbers might be retained. The highly sought after, desired, golden, high numbers of skaters on a single sheet of ice are already there! Then new rules keeping toddlers off of freestyles would be meaningful because an option other then public sessions, but 'above' group lessons, has been created. Coaches would be happy too, because they seem to rarely want to teach on public sessions. The bottom line is that you can't just keep dumping LTS or pre LTS, directly onto freestyle and retain everyone or keep any quality for the long term customers. If management is not willing to grow and expand their options, create new hi freestyles, low freestyles to accomodate growth coming out of LTS, all of this is a lost cause, status quo, short sighted failure; financially, for management, and for taking a skating program to the next level.

Push for 'bridge' programs.

[Skate@Delaware]

My son skates in a recreational hockey league. On his practice sessions, they put up a hard-wall barrier between 1/3 and 2/3's of the rink. The older (and bigger) boys skate on the larger side while the younger boys skate on the smaller side. Every so often, they switch sides. I had recommended that a barrier of sorts (even cones) be put up so the tiny tots could stay in a "safe zone" (even the adults just working on 3-turns and stuff at the wall where they don't have to worry about being in anyones way). They didn't really like this idea...thought it would "detract from the whole-ice concept of skating." (ok, so a toe-pick in your face is ok though?)

So, for now, we share the ice with the little tots and have to worry about bailing out of jumps and spins because little kids are not watching where they are going. Yeah.

We are the only rink in the area (Lower Delaware) so going somewhere else isn't much of an option at this point.

I still remember the time when I was in lesson AND my music was playing....I was in a back spiral with my coach spotting for me and she saw someone behind me but told me to keep skating, even though she had yelled to them to get out of the way; she told me to keep skating! I did and at the last second the girl moved 8O !!! My coach told me I had the right of way and told the girl (later after we were done) if she had gotten hurt it would have been her own fault. I was upset by the whole thing though. I kept waiting for my skate to whack someone in the head!!! My coach had words with the girl, her mother and her coach. I am sure they understand the rules, whether it stays with the girl is anyone's guess.

[Isk8NYC]

Today we had a guy doing clean 2axels and 3sals, and a Pre-Pre little girl who would skate TOWARD you while you were spinning. :frus:Oooo! I teach this lesson to my new students in a "lighthearted" manner. Good for any kind of session where people might spin.

Have the kid stand still. Now, very quickly wave the palms of your hands back and forth very close to his/her eyes. Do it for about 3-4 seconds. While doing it, explain that what they see is what a person spinning sees. They can't see you, or where you are, clearly if at all. My conclusion is: "That's why you should always stay near a cone or the wall if someone's spinning. Do not go near them because you might distract them and you could both get hurt." Works every time. I use it at general sessions, especially the fathers who think the middle is for their little wanna-be hockey player to cut through as fast as possible. (Sometimes, it's a reach - the adults are usually taller than me! LOL)

You're very lucky to have more than one sheet of ice. When there's only one or two, you see more competition for ice time and animosity between the different programs. People who've never worked at single-sheet facilities just don't get why hockey and figure skating coaches don't always play well together.

I agree that the Bridge program is a great idea. The ice time is the issue. If the rink makes convenient skating times available for beginning skaters, the parents will take advantage of it. My business experience tells me that it will take at least six months to catch on; how many single-surface rinks would be willing to lose money on a poorly-attended public when Bob's Hockey Clinic is willing to pay $450/hr?

[Skate@Delaware]

I agree that the Bridge program is a great idea. The ice time is the issue. If the rink makes convenient skating times available for beginning skaters, the parents will take advantage of it. My business experience tells me that it will take at least six months to catch on; how many single-surface rinks would be willing to lose money on a poorly-attended public when Bob's Hockey Clinic is willing to pay $450/hr?
This is so true! We lost a very poorly attended adult-only session (had maybe 5-10 adults) because it was losing money. So, it was given up for hockey. Too bad because it could have been promoted as a low-level freestyle session or a LTS practice time. Part of the problem was the lack of promotion of the session-it was only mentioned on their website; and they would sometimes "give up" the time for bus-loads of kids :twisted: (which they booked in advance but didn't notify people in advance).

We are trying to convince the rink to allow drop-in freestyle in the early morning. They do have someone there at 6 a.m. and it would be nice to skate early before work or school. So far, they haven't bitten.

[Debbie S]

We are trying to convince the rink to allow drop-in freestyle in the early morning. They do have someone there at 6 a.m. and it would be nice to skate early before work or school. So far, they haven't bitten.You could try telling them that they absorb operating costs whether the ice is used or not, so they might as well open it up to an FS session and try to make some money off of it, especially since an employee is already there. :)

One of the rinks where I skate used to have an adult session on Tuesday nights, but they started opening it up to everybody b/c they said not a lot of adults used it (plus, there was always the rule that private lessons were an exception). One of the problems is that it was so late - 8:30 - but I guess it doesn't make sense to have it earlier b/c that's the rink's prime "kiddie" time.

[katijo]

I think our rink requires (recommends?) that skaters be at least Basic 4 level (working on XO's) if they are attending freestyle sessions. And even then, most are working with a coach. I doubt that our skating director would approve anyone on freestyle ice at a lower level without having a coach to work with. (somebody has to teach them not to practice skills in the lutz corner!)

A suggestion for LTS classes...our rink has LTS 4 days a week during the school year (two half-hour classes back to back). During each session, they cone off the last quarter of the rink (usually red line to the end) for open practice. Then, kids who are enrolled in a LTS class can come any or all of the 4 days for practice- no cost. It gives the kids a chance to practice, but keeps the costs down for the LTS program by not having to buy another hour of ice.

Kati

[lovepairs]

Okay, all really good suggestions about what "should" or "could" be done, but what can we do as a collective first step? Is it worthwhile contacting someone at the USFSA to see if there is any overall policy about this that can easily trickle down? In other words, something that we can take with us to talk to rink directors--some type of a mandate.

Do you think we (Adult Skaters) are the ones who should be saying something to the parents about their toddler's safety? How do we talk to coaches about it, since it affects their pocket book. Also, the parents and coaches are wrapped up in times that are convenient for both parties, rather than makinig a stretch to meet up on safe LTS sessions.

There's got to be a way to get these little ones off high freestyle, and to a place where they will be safe to learn and skate with their peers. How do we do this?

Also, what about dumping "hockey kids" on freeskating sessions? This happens a lot where I am and the ******* little hockey boys stake out the end pattern, so it is impossible to do MIF. The session on the print out says Pairs/Dance/MIF...I go to management to complain, and it turns out the Director of this skating rink is the coach who is putting her hockey students on figure skating ice! It's all about $$$ and no one gives a **** about anything else. Does someone have to die before everyone wakes up?! :frus:

[iceskaterdawn]

Also, what about dumping "hockey kids" on freeskating sessions? This happens a lot where I am and the ******* little hockey boys stake out the end pattern, so it is impossible to do MIF. The session on the print out says Pairs/Dance/MIF...I go to management to complain, and it turns out the Director of this skating rink is the coach who is putting her hockey students on figure skating ice! It's all about $$$ and no one gives a **** about anything else. Does someone have to die before everyone wakes up?! :frus:

I was on a freestyle (with my ISI club ice), and there were a few hockey kids on it. I was practicing my program with my music overhead, so I had right of way. I was spinning and a hockey skater (in full gear I might add) slammed into me as he was going full speed through the center of the rink. I went flying, slid across the ice and slammed into the boards. Besides lots of cuts and brusies, a concussion, cracked ribs, I also had a shattered knee cap and a severed patella tendon that took 4 surgeries and a year of physical therapy to recover from. The kid's mom got mad at me, because I am an adult and I should have been watching out and paying more attention to what I was doing. How could I expect her 12 year old son to watch out for me?? :frus:

I know collisions will happen, and typically I do watch out for where I am going and what I am doing. I feel very comfortable on freestyle sessions with other freestyle skaters, as they don't want to hit me as much as I don't want to hit them. Unfortunately hockey skaters (especially those in full gear), don't have that same mentality.

After that incident, I switched over to USFSA, even though I was not yet old enough for the 25 year old age requirement for adults that they had at the time, so I could skate on USFSA club ice. I couldn't test or compete, but at least they didn't allow hockey skaters on the ice.

[Tennisany1]

In fact, one time, said coach let the child skate in a hooded jacket with the hood up so she didn't even have any peripheral vision.

My optometrist told me that kids don't actually get full peripheral vision until they are about 9 years old. This is a major problem for activities like figure skating and biking where you need to be able to watch out for other people or cars or whatever. I'm not sure what the solutions is, but don't expect a tot to be able to see you out of the corner of her eye!

[sk8pics]

I didn't know that about a kid's peripheral vision. Anyway, having the hood up decreased the chances she would see anything even if she turned her head. Not that she ever bothered to look in the direction she was skating...:frus:

[AW1]

This is all very interesting to me.

My daughter is one of these bio-hazards you talk about. If she doesn't skate in Freestyle sessions then she doesn't skate at all, because there is simply no other ice time ecxept for her LTS classes. At the sessions my daughter attends there is everything from LTS kids right up to our National Junior Ladies Champion, plus the Mens Junior Champion on the ice 99% of the time.

As a parent, I don't think it's at all my fault. From the sidelines I can only do so much. And YES I do class her as a real figure skater. The reason we go to those sessions is so that she can get in as much practice as she can without being bowled over by stupid know-all teenagers who can't skate in public sessions AND PRIMARILY BECAUSE THESE WERE THE TIMES WHEN HER COACH SUGGESTED SHE ATTEND FOR HER PRIVATES AND PRACTICE.

Edited to add : this has been happening since she started her private lessons last year around September, so she was 4 at the time. She's 5 now, and can land a toe loop and a salchow, and is learning to do a sit spin this week.... just because she's small does not make her any less of a skater than someone who is a teen or adult trying the same moves IMHO

[sk8pics]

I don't think that little kids are not necessarily not figure skaters (how's that for a garbled sentence, LOL) but the problem is, IMO, that sometimes very small kids are really just meandering around the ice and are not capable of paying attention. That's dangerous. If a higher level skater is doing a program, that skater should be able to actually do the program, without having to worry about killing a small child who is in the way. I have seen a coach pull a small child off to the side while a program by a high level skater is going on, but the coach has to be aware and think of it. To me, one of the problems is that many of the coaches don't recognize the hazard. And a small child can work on toe loops and salchows, for example, without wandering around the ice.

Small children can be taught to look up and be aware of what's going on. There's a tiny little girl who often skates with me, and I have noticed increasing awareness on her part as to what's going on around her. She's also really good for her age! But I nearly killed myself last week trying to stop halfway between a mohawk and a backward spiral, because she'd stopped exactly behind me. She saw me coming and stopped but just picked a bad spot, but she did try!

[Isk8NYC]

I have seen a coach pull a small child off to the side while a program by a high level skater is going on, but the coach has to be aware and think of it. To me, one of the problems is that many of the coaches don't recognize the hazard. Too true. If I see a kid in danger, I'll grab him/her or stand right behind and keep them still. While I'm only 5'4", I'm easier seen in my red or blue jacket than a tiny tot in white.

I think your efforts on this topic are admirable. May I suggest we start by listing the different types of skaters that a rink needs to serve and what each requires?

For example, beginner skaters need ice time for LTS group lessons, private lessons, and a very low-level session where they can practice safely.

[lovepairs]

I was on a freestyle (with my ISI club ice), and there were a few hockey kids on it. I was practicing my program with my music overhead, so I had right of way. I was spinning and a hockey skater (in full gear I might add) slammed into me as he was going full speed through the center of the rink. I went flying, slid across the ice and slammed into the boards. Besides lots of cuts and brusies, a concussion, cracked ribs, I also had a shattered knee cap and a severed patella tendon that took 4 surgeries and a year of physical therapy to recover from. The kid's mom got mad at me, because I am an adult and I should have been watching out and paying more attention to what I was doing. How could I expect her 12 year old son to watch out for me?

The mom got mad at you? Oh, boy, I would have sued the cr*p out of her! Right to court, do not stop at go, right to LITIGATION! What f***ing (sorry, board monitor, but this is outrageous!) nerve that parent had!!!!

[lovepairs]

This is all very interesting to me.

My daughter is one of these bio-hazards you talk about. If she doesn't skate in Freestyle sessions then she doesn't skate at all, because there is simply no other ice time ecxept for her LTS classes. At the sessions my daughter attends there is everything from LTS kids right up to our National Junior Ladies Champion, plus the Mens Junior Champion on the ice 99% of the time.

As a parent, I don't think it's at all my fault. From the sidelines I can only do so much. And YES I do class her as a real figure skater. The reason we go to those sessions is so that she can get in as much practice as she can without being bowled over by stupid know-all teenagers who can't skate in public sessions AND PRIMARILY BECAUSE THESE WERE THE TIMES WHEN HER COACH SUGGESTED SHE ATTEND FOR HER PRIVATES AND PRACTICE.

Edited to add : this has been happening since she started her private lessons last year around September, so she was 4 at the time. She's 5 now, and can land a toe loop and a salchow, and is learning to do a sit spin this week.... just because she's small does not make her any less of a skater than someone who is a teen or adult trying the same moves IMHO

Head up AW:

The bottom line is do you want your kid alive, very hurt, or at the worst dead. If you're baby is 4, or 5 and is on sessions with Adults, older kids and teenagers doing doubles, dance, and or pair teams, she doesn't belong on these sessions, and if for nothing else other than the height and weight difference. I don't care if she has enough control to do a toe loop, or a salchow. The fact remains no matter what you think she is (serious skater, or not) when a pair team is coming down the lift lane to set up a lift, or a novice skater is whizzing by getting ready for an axel, your daughter doesn't have the weight, speed, or dexterity to get out of the way. Both parties can become seriously hurt as a result.

Having said that, you are right, it is totally not your fault as a parent. And, yes your toddler who is aspiring to become a serious figure skater doesn't belong on Public Sessions (it isn't safe for her there, either.) Also, if she has rapidly outgrown Learn-to-Skate, then she doesn't belong there either.

I beleive Pairsman2 made a good point: Let me try to scroll back and find it...here it is:

Learn to skate: Beleive it or not, USFSA has materials describing a 'bridge program' to get kids from LTS over to freestyle. My guess is that management, directors and coaches will alway bend to financial pressures first and anything else second. So if you can't beat-em, join em on the money front. At my rink, they are currently enjoying a LTS that's huge. (and I've seen this repeatedly) Rarely do they capitalize on it and retain anything more then a small fraction of those skaters. If I were a director or management, I would look out at that packed LTS rink and see 50 long term customers who might spend thousands $$$$$ of dollars over the next 5-10 years. If a LTS, PART 2 was created/packaged as an open coaching session/ low freestyle, I beleive this would qualify as a good bridge program and the LTS numbers might be retained. The highly sought after, desired, golden, high numbers of skaters on a single sheet of ice are already there! Then new rules keeping toddlers off of freestyles would be meaningful because an option other then public sessions, but 'above' group lessons, has been created. Coaches would be happy too, because they seem to rarely want to teach on public sessions. The bottom line is that you can't just keep dumping LTS or pre LTS, directly onto freestyle and retain everyone or keep any quality for the long term customers. If management is not willing to grow and expand their options, create new hi freestyles, low freestyles to accomodate growth coming out of LTS, all of this is a lost cause, status quo, short sighted failure; financially, for management, and for taking a skating program to the next level.

Push for 'bridge' programs.

For everyone's safety, your child's safety, and our saftey, low freestyle "bridge" sessions need to be created for these kids.

Okay, how do we start a campain to create these sessions and get babies (3 - 6 years old) off high freestyle, and onto low freestyle sessions?

[sk8nlizard]

I think many times the problem with trying to get high and low freestyles is that the high freestyles will not be filled. At the rink I am at, they have discussed high and low freestyles, but if that was the case the low freestyle would be filled and the high freestyle would at MAX have 5 people on it (and that is assuming high means PRELIMINARY and up). That being said, from the rinks stand point it would be more beneficial to have mostly low freestlyes, but then the so called high freestylers lose all their ice time. At a rink that only has 11 hours of freestyle time a week (and we are NOT allowed to skate on public sessions, PERIOD) this would seriously hender the high level kids. As it is, there are still many near collisions with the high level kids on the ice.

That being said, I do think it is possible for both high and low level kids to skate together safely. The rink I grew up in was not a training center but typically had 6-7 kids working on double axels and triples, and another 5-6 working on doubles, and then the lower level kids. None of the sessions were restricted, and we were even allowed to do everything on publics (I remember having double axel lessons on public sessions). That being said, the higher level skaters were responsible for getting out of the lower level kids way. I know I know, not fair, but the reasoning was higher levels were faster, more in control, more aware, and able to see accidents waiting to happen better. BUT, the coaches all made a great effort to teach the little ones to watch out for others, and usually after a couple of weeks the little ones were able to watch out pretty well.

I think high and low freestyles are a great idea, but they will only work if the rink is willing to give more freestyle time (and take away from hockey or public) or if you really have enough people to fill both sessions. If your rink allows 25 kids on the ice, and high lows produce 10 and 15 respectively, the management is going to combine them. Money talks...unfortunately.

[twokidsskatemom]

I just want to point out one advantage of allowing younger kids on a freestyle when in a lesson with a (vigilant) coach. This year I taught a 6 yr old who came up with me through the Mommy & Me. The only time available for both of us was a freestyle. Over the course of the season, I saw this child go from clueless to acutely aware. I was right with her every second and was frequently pointing out skaters as they approached and telling her things like "let's move over here to be out of x's way". I do not think she is quite ready to be on a freestyle unaccompanied, but it is more because she isn't yet fast enough, than because of a lack of awareness. I think one of the big problems on freestyle sessions is the coach who does not teach her/his students to watch out for others.


I 1000 percent agree. Both my kids have been on Fs sessions since age 4. They have been taught by both the coach and us who has right of way, and how to behave on the ice.We dont have the luxury of differnt ice sessions. My kids grew up with kids with doubles on the ice with them, and novice ice dance teams.They certainly can be taught how to watch others at a younger age.
We have never had any one conplain, not even the snotty teens. They all get along and it works for OUR CLUB and our rinks.

[Kelli]

I think many times the problem with trying to get high and low freestyles is that the high freestyles will not be filled. At the rink I am at, they have discussed high and low freestyles, but if that was the case the low freestyle would be filled and the high freestyle would at MAX have 5 people on it (and that is assuming high means PRELIMINARY and up). That being said, from the rinks stand point it would be more beneficial to have mostly low freestlyes, but then the so called high freestylers lose all their ice time. At a rink that only has 11 hours of freestyle time a week (and we are NOT allowed to skate on public sessions, PERIOD) this would seriously hender the high level kids. As it is, there are still many near collisions with the high level kids on the ice.


At my rink, high freestyle (our moves and freestyle sessions are separate) is for pre-juv and up or passed pre-pre and in middle school or older. Older pre-pres are usually aware enough to handle high freestyle sessions, and my rink doesn't really have a ton of super advanced freestylers anyway (strong synchro emphasis).

LTS kids can skate some low freestyle sessions; I think FS 1+ can practice on their own, and BS 4+ are restricted to a smaller number of sessions and have to be with their coach. And yes, coaches have kicked kids off the ice on the rare occassion that there's someone there who shouldn't be.

[badaxel]

I just thought I 'd add my two cents...
I see everyone's point about the little kids and the dangers. However, I would much rather have a LTS kid who doesn't go very far and is fairly easy for me to avoid that one of the higher level mean kids. At my rink we have about 5-6 very mean girls/ dance teams that seem to think that you should be groveling at their feet for being allowed to share the same ice with them. These are the ones that think that you should bail out of your axel if it's in the way of their double lutz. Even if they are not in a lesson or doing their program. These are the ones that yell, "excuse me" really loudly and nastily just before they buzz you. I'm tired of wasting my ice time getting out of their way. I'll take the LTS kid over the nasty high level diva any day.

[Tennisany1]

I just thought I 'd add my two cents...
I see everyone's point about the little kids and the dangers. However, I would much rather have a LTS kid who doesn't go very far and is fairly easy for me to avoid that one of the higher level mean kids. At my rink we have about 5-6 very mean girls/ dance teams that seem to think that you should be groveling at their feet for being allowed to share the same ice with them. These are the ones that think that you should bail out of your axel if it's in the way of their double lutz. Even if they are not in a lesson or doing their program. These are the ones that yell, "excuse me" really loudly and nastily just before they buzz you. I'm tired of wasting my ice time getting out of their way. I'll take the LTS kid over the nasty high level diva any day.

Interesting you should bring this up. My little skater has been on FS ice since she was five. She mostly skates on junior sessions (up to pre - juv / prelim,) but once per week she is on an open session. There are kids up to Novice on the ice with her - no adult skaters. Her coach spends a fair bit of time talking about the rules and getting her to point out whose music is playing and who is in a lesson. For the most part she stays out of the way. We had one close call at the beginning of the season when the seniors all had new programs. My little one thought one skater was doing her program when in fact it was another skater. No one was hurt and the other skater understood as her music was only a week old. I have also taken her off the ice a couple of times when it is just too busy and she has come off on her own the odd time as well.

What makes me really angry is we have some divas who won't get out of my skater's way when it is her turn to do her program. She has had the same music for a year, it is a very unique piece so they all know it is hers, but often they just skate right through or stop right where she is going into a sit spin. If the session is open and a skater is allowed on then everyone needs to play by the rules. I don't care if you have to stop before your double axel 15 times if someone elses music is playing or in a lesson they have the right of way - that's just how it works. Before anyone gets upset, I do realize that you are not complaining about kids doing their program but we just got back from the rink and my skater had to stop her program twice each of the two times she was slotted to do it. It really bugs me. There we go I'll stop ranting now!

[Skate@Delaware]

The little (and bigger) ice divas really annoy me...grrrr!

I get annoyed when it's the start of a new competitive season and it's time for new music....and you see 2-3 people skating to it (one who owns it and several who like it and are skating for fun to it)....WHO'S MUSIC IS IT????? Please tell me so I know!!!!!! Sheesh!!!!

:giveup:

[Mrs Redboots]

It's always worse at the start of the season when you don't know other people's programmes - this time of year, even the elites have more-or-less settled at least the basic shape of their programmes and you know roughly where they're going to go at which point in their music.

We only have one Little Princess on most of the sessions I attend, and she's gone by 08:00 in the week to go to school. She is very good at keeping out of the way now, while still keeping her own space on the ice that she needs - she used not to be, but at six, she has learnt. I do find weekend teaching ice awkward for that very reason, though - there is always a scatter of kids around who don't know that, while the hockey circles are a great place to have lessons (we tend to refer to them as K's circle, P's circle, etc, from the name of the coach who tends to teach in them!), they are not a great place to stand and chat!

[sk8pics]

What makes me really angry is we have some divas who won't get out of my skater's way when it is her turn to do her program. She has had the same music for a year, it is a very unique piece so they all know it is hers, but often they just skate right through or stop right where she is going into a sit spin. If the session is open and a skater is allowed on then everyone needs to play by the rules.
I totally agree with you here. The same thing happens to me at times, and even when I'm in a lesson with my program music on. Very annoying and rude. Once I even had to have a discussion with another coach while I was skating my program, in a lesson. Come on, don't argue with me, just move the heck out of the way!

[Skate@Delaware]

My coach gets a GREAT laugh out of me because she KNOWS I will do my mom yell, "MOVE!!!" if I'm in my program and I see a group of chatty cathy's in my way :twisted: ... I always go up to them later and say "I'm sorry, but I was in my program..." they almost always apologize.

[Mercedeslove]

Learn to Skate kids are not figure skaters or even close. They have yet mastered the skills to be called a figure skater and it's best they stay off the ice.

I don't want to have to owrry about them getting in my way while I am seriously trying to get some ice time in. I'm not going to worry if I hurt them or not, if they get hurt...that is their fault. They got in the way. If they knew any better they would have stayed out of the way and off the ice.

It's unfair to those who are really skating to risk getting hurt because some stupid spoiled brat thinks freestyle sessions means LTS sessions.

They are more then welcome at public sessions but have no business skating with those who can actually skate.

This is why we have freestyle sessions, so we don't have to worry about the kids getting in our way. We pay a lot of these and should be able to enjoy them.

[FrankR]

Learn to Skate kids are not figure skaters or even close. They have yet mastered the skills to be called a figure skater and it's best they stay off the ice.

I don't want to have to owrry about them getting in my way while I am seriously trying to get some ice time in. I'm not going to worry if I hurt them or not, if they get hurt...that is their fault. They got in the way. If they knew any better they would have stayed out of the way and off the ice.

It's unfair to those who are really skating to risk getting hurt because some stupid spoiled brat thinks freestyle sessions means LTS sessions.

They are more then welcome at public sessions but have no business skating with those who can actually skate.

This is why we have freestyle sessions, so we don't have to worry about the kids getting in our way. We pay a lot of these and should be able to enjoy them.

Although I understand that it can be frustrating to share ice with kids that are just learning if their awareness of those around them has not been fully developed, at the end of the day they are still people and deserve more consideration than this. 8O :roll:

[twokidsskatemom]

Learn to Skate kids are not figure skaters or even close. They have yet mastered the skills to be called a figure skater and it's best they stay off the ice.

I don't want to have to owrry about them getting in my way while I am seriously trying to get some ice time in. I'm not going to worry if I hurt them or not, if they get hurt...that is their fault. They got in the way. If they knew any better they would have stayed out of the way and off the ice.

It's unfair to those who are really skating to risk getting hurt because some stupid spoiled brat thinks freestyle sessions means LTS sessions.

They are more then welcome at public sessions but have no business skating with those who can actually skate.

This is why we have freestyle sessions, so we don't have to worry about the kids getting in our way. We pay a lot of these and should be able to enjoy them.

Excuse me are you for real? Really really do you mean this?
What skills do you have ?When are you a figure skater?a watz jump? an axle?Didnt you just start?
I need to step back now before I say something I will reget .:giveup: :giveup: :giveup: :giveup: :giveup: :giveup: :giveup: :giveup: :giveup: :giveup: :giveup: :giveup: :giveup: :giveup: :giveup:
edited to add...
LTS classes cover toe loops and axle prep. While I agree a kid who hasnt mastered marching and getting up and down has no bussiness on Fs ice, My kids pay the same amount as anyone else does.

[Debbie S]

It's unfair to those who are really skating to risk getting hurt because some stupid spoiled brat thinks freestyle sessions means LTS sessions.I think the point lovepairs and others have made, which I agree with, is that it's not the kids that think FS sessions mean LTS sessions, it's their parents.

I, too, get annoyed by the kids that don't watch where they're going (ex: deciding that a 2-feet wide patch of ice with people on either side of the space would be a great place for a camel spin :roll: ) or stand around and don't move no matter how many times you yell "excuse me" as you skate toward them with your music playing, as you are in lesson, but as others have pointed out, "big" divas are a problem too - it's up to all of us to work to make skating and the rink environment safer, and some people seem more willing to do that than others.

I think the idea of having "bridge" sessions or low FS sessions is a good one. I don't know how feasible it would be, though, b/c I'm sure there would be plenty of complaints about the scheduling and such-and-such session being more convenient, etc. Rinks do have to cater to the majority of their customers. But I think if your rink/club has a lot of FS ice available, it's worth a try to get these sessions instituted. Of course, it's meaningless if it's not enforced on the upper end...meaning no high-level skaters getting on the ice with the FS 1 crowd and zipping around buzzing people doing Senior MIF.

I thought about this thread last night as I practiced on a crowded (although not as crowded as this session was last week - phew!) session and noticed that one of the coaches brought her daughter (who looked about 4 or 5) on the ice with her. This coach used the center circle area to teach her student and had obviously told her daughter to stay close to her and not go outside the circle area. So the girl puttered around (in a pink, lacy skating dress that had orginally belonged to the student this coach was teaching) and looked to be having fun trying spins and turns and never got in anyone's way b/c people stayed out of the area due to the lesson, and the dancers weren't going through the center circle anyway. Plus, the coach was right there so even if someone didn't see the girl, they couldn't miss her mother. (I realize this is unlike the situations being discussed here...but seeing her out there reminded me of what we've been discussing here)

[Terri C]

I witnessed a simuliar situation this morning.
I saw a little girl in a dress and rental skates get on our freestyle session this morning marching around. Within minutes, my secondary coach, who was going to give this girl a lesson, scooped her up and had her at her side.
During that lesson, when a higher level skater was going in their direction, doing a program, coach pulled Little Skater to the boards

[lovepairs]

DebbieS,

Let's face it, nothing is convenient for any of us: adults, kids, parents, or coaches. But let's all keep focused on the issue, which is about "Toddler Ice Safety." If we have safe "bridge" sessions for LTS graduating toddlers then parents should make it a priority to form their schedule around these sessions if their kids safety is their utmost concern.

Once this problem is solved then we don't have to argue about how we are paying for ice time that we should be able to use, enjoy, ect...

Franklin, your "human rights" comment is totally accurate; everyone at every age should be respected. However, what we are talking about here is a potentially dangerous scenario that plays itself out across the country day after day after day. All I'm saying is, is it going to have to take some 5 year old getting killed before any of the grownups: adult skaters, coaches, parents, or rink/club management does something about this very dangerous situation?

[Isk8NYC]

Learn to Skate kids are not figure skaters <snip> We pay a lot of these and should be able to enjoy them.While I agree that the freestyle sessions are intended for figure skaters, not beginners (hence their hefty price), the tone of your post defeats your message. I know everyone likes to vent at times, but it would be more productive to keep the anger in check.

If you honestly don't care about hurting other people who don't (or can't) get out of your way, you're part of the problem. I'd like to think that's not really the case and you're exaggerating a bit because you're upset.

How about some stats? How frequently is this happening? Are they just close calls, or are there real injuries, such as Jazzpants encountered? Enough to justify a separate "bridge" session for the LTS skaters? That's what you need to tally as part of your campaign.

[FrankR]

DebbieS,
Franklin, your "human rights" comment is totally accurate; everyone at every age should be respected. However, what we are talking about here is a potentially dangerous scenario that plays itself out across the country day after day after day. All I'm saying is, is it going to have to take some 5 year old getting killed before any of the grownups: adult skaters, coaches, parents, or rink/club management does something about this very dangerous situation?

I agree that this is a common issue in many rinks. However, my point is that a solution is best achieved by sitting down calmly and having a rational discussion. If mercedeslove is frustrated that is one thing. Regardless of her level of frustration, the tone of her post is inappropriate at best and does not aid in the process of discussing the issue rationally as ISk8NYC has so eloquently stated.

[twokidsskatemom]

Maybe in an IDEAL world.... every level could have their own ice. I wouldnt like that idea, but maybe some would.
But we dont, unless you own a rink.
My 7 y ear old today worked on her pre juv moves on the ice with an adult wearing a helmet, holding on the the board. That adult is no less a skater than my 7 year old. RESPECT is RESPECT.
If you are lucky enough, you might have low ice and high ice. Even then, you would be on the low ice with 5 year old learning waltz jumps and salcows,. just like you are.
If its a safely issue, join your board and make some changes. Talk to the coaches, talk to the management.
As I said before, a toddler marching shouldnt be on Fs ice, even mine werent. But when they start crossovers, they are just like all other skaters.
Even thought we dont have a huge club, in three year the only accidents was two high level kids colliding in a power class.:giveup:

[twokidsskatemom]

DebbieS,

Let's face it, nothing is convenient for any of us: adults, kids, parents, or coaches. But let's all keep focused on the issue, which is about "Toddler Ice Safety." If we have safe "bridge" sessions for LTS graduating toddlers then parents should make it a priority to form their schedule around these sessions if their kids safety is their utmost concern.

Once this problem is solved then we don't have to argue about how we are paying for ice time that we should be able to use, enjoy, ect...

Franklin, your "human rights" comment is totally accurate; everyone at every age should be respected. However, what we are talking about here is a potentially dangerous scenario that plays itself out across the country day after day after day. All I'm saying is, is it going to have to take some 5 year old getting killed before any of the grownups: adult skaters, coaches, parents, or rink/club management does something about this very dangerous situation?

I agree If a club could have bridge sessions, that would be great !! But in the real world, unless you have a big club, I dont see that happening.

[AndreaUK]

Hi

I'll throw in my opinion on this, its probably not very valid and Im probably going to get hell for it but heres my situation.

Im in my 30s and have been skating for 8 weeks. I have a coach and I am having private lessons. I pay the same rate for my coaching as the elite skaters pay and I also pay the same price for patch ice as the higher level skaters. The way I see it, I am training, I am taking this very very seriously and Im giving everything i have and everything I am to actualise my dream. My dream is to figure skate confidently, competently and to progress to the best that I can be. I dont want to be a world champion, I dont want to be the best skater in the UK I just simply want to be the best that I can be. Im still in a learn to skate program but making rapid progress. Yeah after 8 weeks I am doing 3 turns, spirals, mohawks, drags, crossovers forward and backward. This does not make me a genious, it doesnt make me special, it doesnt make me anything other than a novice yet serious skater.

If i skated or took my lessons on the public sessions away from patch/freestyle sessions I doubt very much that I would have gotten any further than standing and sitting on the ice. Unfortunately the general public have very little regard or respect for anyone who is trying to skate properly. They constantly skate in your way, laugh and make jokes, shout 'show off' from the barriers and take the rip out of what you wear simply becuase you can skate better than them and some element of jealousy creeps in.

Maybe I shouldnt be on the patch sessions, maybe I should hang up my skates and leave way for the elite who have big dreams of becoming world superstars and have their faces in magazines, earning vast amounts of money and skating in shows around the world?

Not all of us have the same goals or dreams, not all of us have the same tallent or ability but who is to decide this? Where as I agree little children may be putting themselves and others at risk during freestyle sessions, where do we draw the line? Do we now decide to alienate all new skaters regardless of age or ability? Ill say one thing though, If I had to restrict myself to public sessions, I may as well forget my dreams and sell my skates on ebay.

I am not meaning to sound harsh or offensive in this post to anyone, however I do agree with many points that rinks are more concerned about putting money over their counter than ensuring a safe environment for all.

Andrea xx

[jazzpants]

Although I understand that it can be frustrating to share ice with kids that are just learning if their awareness of those around them has not been fully developed, at the end of the day they are still people and deserve more consideration than this. 8O :roll:Admittedly, I'm very torn on this issue. On the one hand, this little kid is a FS skater and since she's paying her coaching and the ice time, the kid should be given full consideration. And those of you that know me know that I have a very soft spot for kids!!!

However, I also have to be concern for the safety of a lot of skaters that skate at the morning FS sessions that this little girl is starting to show up at. I mean we got a LOT of adults at the later morning sessions (and during the summer, there are a LOT of kids doing doubles as well too...) A lot of our adults are BIG tall guys who can easily crush this particular girl here!!! The only thing that this little one has that is of her protection is her coach (who if you know her, she's a BIG TALL WOMAN!!!) But she can't be skating alongside her student the entire time, especially if she's doing a program.

And yes, I do remember a time when I have to learn to be aware of other skaters and figure out their pattern. I'm STILL learning that lesson now!!! And no, we only have ONE PATCH of ice at my home rink. We're at least good about keeping the LTS kiddies off by having a small patch of ice coned off so the LTS kids can practice while skating school is still going on and keeping the skating school days different from the afternoons FS session times. But nothing's perfect...where do we do from here to make things better?

A step to start fixing this problem is to make sure the rink enforces the max 25 (or whatever number) skaters on a FS session rule! I don't know about you, but it sure felt like there are more than 25 skaters on that particular session, despite what the FS sign up sheets says. I remembered feeling very claustrophobic that day. 8O

[samba]

I think if any of you have witnessed as I have, seeing a small child being hit at speed by an advanced skater you may just change your minds.

Its like a car hitting a child, they go right up in the air, in this case the advance skater tried to catch the child and ended up with a dislocated thumb, the child however came off a lot worse and ended up with a cracked skull.

Some of you will probably say it was the advanced skater's fault, I only know that I would never, ever, put a small child at that kind of risk whoever's fault.

[DallasSkater]

I have been following this tread with such interest as I had no idea that people with programs might feel this strongly about people who are learning. My rink does have two high freestyle times daily and things like specific sessions such as MIF designated times. During those sessions there are people like me doing more basic MIF all the way to very skilled. There are coaches with students at any freestyle too. Maybe our rink is not as busy as others or something but it just does not seem to be a problem in sharing the times. The high freestyle tends to have the pairs and extremely accomplished skaters. All others seem to have people that seem reasonable with the amount of ice they need. Everyone seems to be very understanding of the tiny tots that may be taking lessons and it has not appeared to be a safety issue any times I have skated. People that choose to do their program during a regular freestyle just appear to know from experience how their program may be impacted. As it gets closer to any competition, there are more using the high freestyle times.

I do know to get out of the way of people who have their music going. However, it seems unpredictable for me to know exactly where that skater is going next on the ice unless I have watch their program a few times. It just seems extreme that if you are practicing on shared ice that there would be an expectation of never being in the way.

It is already difficult to find time in a working life for all the practice this sport requires. I am certain if it were restricted further for me I would not be able to participate. I remember trying to share my sand box with the neighbors as a child. It was disturbing at first...but after just playing I learned it was more fun to have them there! giggle. I hope there will not be segregation that is too large. I practice during public skating times too because sometimes that works best with my schedule. I just adjust what I am working on accordingly. So far it has worked.

I think the debate is a good one. Thanks for enlightening me to it!

[jazzpants]

I think if any of you have witnessed as I have, seeing a small child being hit at speed by an advanced skater you may just change your minds.I have been hit by a high level skater going at a fast speed before! (About a year or two ago, I think...) Trust me! It feels like the wind got knocked outta me!!! (And I'm not that much shorter than this teenager skater and I'm certainly built bigger than her!!!) 8O

[samba]

I have been hit by a high level skater going at a fast speed before! (About a year or two ago, I think...) Trust me! It feels like the wind got knocked outta me!!! (And I'm not that much shorter than this teenager skater and I'm certainly built bigger than her!!!) 8O

With that, I rest my case.

[twokidsskatemom]

With that, I rest my case.

So does that mean jazz shouldnt have been on the ice ? No , it was an accident.

Ice skating is an dangerous sport. Accidents can and will always happen.The best you can do IF you feel its an issue is skate on ice that is your level.
As said before, some people dont have ice like that, so we do the best we can !

[samba]

So does that mean jazz shouldnt have been on the ice ? No , it was an accident.

She has every right to be on the ice, and that was not what I meant, correct me if I'm wrong Jazz but I guess you were demonstrating just how bad it is to be hit even as an adult, so a small child doesnt stand a chance.

If you read my original post twokidsskatemom you may understand it better.

[twokidsskatemom]

She has every right to be on the ice, and that was not what I meant, correct me if I'm wrong Jazz but I guess you were demonstrating just how bad it is to be hit even as an adult, so a small child doesnt stand a chance.
Im not saying its not. But then the same could be said for the adults that dont skate well on the ice with kids doing doubles. I would hate to see the 60 year old knocked down by anyone, even my 4 5 lb daughter.
But again, its not a perfect world.

[jazzpants]

She has every right to be on the ice, and that was not what I meant, correct me if I'm wrong Jazz but I guess you were demonstrating just how bad it is to be hit even as an adult, so a small child doesnt stand a chance.Yes, I was just demonstrating just how bad it is to be hit by a high level skater going at fast speeds as an adult. Nothing else. I should also add though that in that particular case, I am VERY lucky that I walked out of the rink with some bruises and swelling on the face, a light bruise on my knee, and some MAJORLY shaken nerves on my part and a few other skaters and employees!!! Nothing else!!!

The way I see it now...it's an accident! It happens! I go off the ice, heal up, get back on the ice a few days later, and move on!!! At the end, it's all I can do!!! Giving up skating altogether b/c of this is NOT an option for me!!! :twisted:

[samba]

It is a great shame that not every rink has the same facilities as mine, we have a toddler group on Sundays on the ice with toys etc and its barriered off from the general public.

This came about through pressure from parents and if you want something badly enough you can only get together and put it to management, there is money to be made for potential coaches and the rink itself in tickets, ours is always full.

Beginner Adults in general have more road sense on patches than children, I personally dont worry about them, they have choices, besides, I'm not that great myself even after all these years, my list of injuries is endless also Jazz and neither would I give it up, its the madness of skating.

[Skate@Delaware]

Well, I guess there are several things we need to be aware of:

As adults we need to take responsibility for our own skating.

As better skaters, we need to take responsibility for our own skating AS WELL AS inform others of the rules, and set a good example by following the rules and have a good attitude.

If we see something wrong, we need to speak up about it (especially if it's a safety issue).

If we can, maybe we can pressure our home rink management to incorporate bridge sessions, or lower freestyle if there are enough participants. This may not be possible at every rink (especially where hockey is king).

[skaternum]

I'm in the camp of those who think LTS kids do not belong on figure skating sessions. LTS kids, in my experience, do not possess the physical and mental awareness to deal with the fast and furious skating that FS sessions are all about. If they require a grownup to keep an eye on them, they do not belong on a FS session. It's unfair to expect figure skaters to spend some of their time and mental energy on taking care of a little kid on the ice. So unless a coach is devoted to keeping them safe the entire session, no way.

And I extend this to beginning adult skaters. It's not about age for me -- it's about awareness. The beginning adult may possess the mental awareness that the kids lack, but they don't have the physical awareness. LTSers of any age generally cannot control themselves well enough to be participants in the Safety Dance of getting out of the way. I just don't think LTSers belong on figure skating sessions. They may be serious. They may work hard. But they're not figure skaters in my book.

[NoVa Sk8r]

I agree with skaternum; it's not about age but level.

We also have coaches here who could care less about FS session rules. One even brought a 6-year old on a FS session ... for a hockey lesson! (Then there was the little star skater who skated right into my coach and me while I was in the harness getting a 2sal lesson, but that's a different story.)

There was a time when all the beginner skaters would just skate the weekend afternoon public sessions, but they've migrated onto the morning freestyle sessions. My latest theory is that since this trend started in May, the coaches are making the kids skate these early session so as to enjoy some time in the sun/at the beach!

There are even coaches who allow LTS kids on an adult freestyle session (yes, a rink here has adult freestyle sessions M,/W/F, 6-7:20PM): "Oh, well they are getting a lesson--they're an exception." <sigh>

[Skate@Delaware]

My rink has limited sessions. There are LTS lessons with the 30 minutes of practice time. Then there are the hockey times.

For practice skating, you have a choice of Sat/Sun public sessions, as well as the daytime sessions, late Friday night session (teen fest 8O ), club ice on Sat/Sun/Wed, and one open freestyle session (usually Tues).

Sometimes, it's just a zoo! The daytime sessions are nice and not typically crowded unless there are home-schooled groups. The weekends are too crowded and poorly monitored by the rink guards.

Most evening ice is eaten up by hockey....:cry:

[samba]

I would encourage all; parents of toddlers, adult beginners and established skaters, to sell the idea of toddlers and adult beginners sessions, we have both at my rink and both the rink and the coaches do very nicely from them, perhaps coaches are the first line of call especially the ones with their own kids and once they are convinced maybe they can put some pressure on management also.

I attend both from time to time, they are a wonderful social event where you dont have to keep watching your back and many long term friendships have been established through them.

Its a win win situation for everyone but I agree the main priority in most rinks is hockey, thats where the big money is made and most are privately owned businesses not council run so they have to make money to stay running unfortunately.

Good Luck

[AndreaUK]

And I extend this to beginning adult skaters. It's not about age for me -- it's about awareness. The beginning adult may possess the mental awareness that the kids lack, but they don't have the physical awareness. LTSers of any age generally cannot control themselves well enough to be participants in the Safety Dance of getting out of the way. I just don't think LTSers belong on figure skating sessions. They may be serious. They may work hard. But they're not figure skaters in my book.Sorry im not sure how to quote on this site. {Just click "QUOTE" in the bottom right of the post you want.}

I honestly didnt realise that seasoned skaters had such a massive problem with adult beginners. If this is the case, ill give up. If Im not a figure skater becuase I havent passed certain tests then obviously I am not fit to be on the ice. With these sort of attitudes amongst higher level skaters I doubt I ever will be and I seriously feel sorry for all those adult beginners/skaters who aspire to be more than a leisure skater, skating in circles, one way around an ice rink.
I honestly now see that there is a massive amount of snobbery within this sport. Its funny how we look at things with rose tinted glasses when we love something so much. I think as with everything else Ive ever tried to do lately, ice skating will now have to be looked at as another 'play time hobby' that has gone sour. Im prepared to give up if this is what people think. I will NOT skate on a busy packed to capacity public session becuase its virtually impossible and im my opinion far far more dangerous than skating on patch. It seems that with reference to the above opinion its better if I dont skate on patch either becuase were just not wanted there either? It seems we dont have the awareness or physical ability to get out of the way? LOL Thats the funniest thing Ive heard in my life. I dont know how it works anywhere else but at my rink you simply dont go on patch unless your coach has deemed you worthy. Beginner or not I know how to keep out of the way but it seems my presence there is infact in the way wether im up by the barrier or not.

I know what Ill do, Ill press the council to build a seperate rink for adult beginners, so that we can call ourselves 'wannabe figure skaters' and not get in anyones way.

Yep call me what you want for this post, ive taken offence and Im sure many other adult beginners probably would too. oh and with the nature of forums these days, I had better cover my back and say that Im not having a personal dig here at anyone in particular, Im not out for an argument, Im not out for a row. Im just heartilly disappointed that there is NO SUPPORT amongst our skating peers. Jeesh anyone would think that adults are some serious threat?

Right off to sell my skates on ebay

Andrea xx

[AndreaUK]

I would encourage all; parents of toddlers, adult beginners and established skaters, to sell the idea of toddlers and adult beginners sessions, we have both at my rink and both the rink and the coaches do very nicely from them, perhaps coaches are the first line of call especially the ones with their own kids and once they are convinced maybe they can put some pressure on management also.

I attend both from time to time, they are a wonderful social event where you dont have to keep watching your back and many long term friendships have been established through them.

Its a win win situation for everyone but I agree the main priority in most rinks is hockey, thats where the big money is made and most are privately owned businesses not council run so they have to make money to stay running unfortunately.

Good Luck

In theory this is very good, but with the distinct lack of ice skating arenas in the UK its not always easy to attend an adult or toddler session. My rink does an adult beginner session 1/2 hour per week very early on a saturday morning. Seeing as many adults have kids and many of these adults including myself have over an hours drive to the arena its simply not practical to be there on time, or pay the full whack price for 1/2 hrs skate.

I would have also thought that the adults that use patch like myself are invited to use the patch sessions. Im sure were not mad enough to just presume we can go on patch for the sake of it.

Andrea xx

[Sonic]

I can see it from both points.

Firstly (and I am probably going to get lynched for this), I agree to a certain extent with what Mercedeslove says.

Okay, it is not 'fair' to say that LTS kids shouldn't be on patches. Well, perhaps it's not 'fair' that learner drivers can't drive on a motorway...but would you let a learner driver with little coordination, little awareness of other road users, lacking in skills and experience on a motorway....?

I guess it depends on the rink, but while I was learning to skate I had to make do with just public sessions, and I managed okay - though admittedly I am lucky enough to skate at a rink where not all public sessions are jam-packed and dangerous.

On the other hand, it's going a bit far to 'pigeonhole' everyone the LTS programme - okay some (especially little kids) have little coordination or awareness of other skaters, but as others have pointed out, there are some that are doing toe-loops. At our rink I see a number of adult learner skaters who may not be very advanced, but do have the skills - and sense - to get out of the way of others if necessary.

So IMHO, the way forward would be a compromise...eg having to be a certain level to skate on a patch, and also a minimum age (5?) Or do what Andrea's rink does - you have to be 'recommended' by a coach to skate on a patch.


S xxx

[AndreaUK]

I think if a coach reccommends you skate on patch then there isnt a problem what so ever, regardless of the age. I have been skating 8 weeks, I am progressing very fast. I can get out of the way, I am old enough and do have enough sense, mental ability and skill now to keep out the way of those who are skating more agressively or working on a program. I think a lot of it is common sense.
If I hadnt been asked to skate on patch then there is no way that I would presume that im good enough. My coach seems that Im of the ability now to cope with patch sessions and keep myself pretty safe. There is another girl at our rink, beginner (2 weeks) decided that she will skate on patch also. This girl cannot even stop herself with either a snow plow, T stop etc so I would question her ability to using patch. Thankfully her coach refused to give her lessons on the patch session as she is deemed not ready.

This is how it works where I skate. If your coach thinks your ready and good enough for patch then its reccommended. If not, you will simply skate on a public session until you reach a standard where your considered safe.

I havent seen any children on our patch sessions, this is probably becuase the kids use the weekend patch becuase they are in school the rest of the week. The more advanced skaters dont tend to use these weekend sessions.

In an ideal world each arena would have two pads, one for the public and another for lessons/patch and deal out those patch sessions according to ability but we dont live in an ideal world. It seems arenas are only concerned with takings where as perhaps a little more emphasis on safety would be more apropriate. Where I skate the arena itself doenst seem to care too much about serious skaters as long as theyre takin a couple thousand pounds durin the day.

Andrea xx

[Mrs Redboots]

When your rink only provides one teaching session for all levels, then you just have to learn to cope. The Husband has a scrape on his arm this morning from a collision with a child - he did try to avoid her, but didn't quite make it. I think she was okay, though.

We skate with other skaters at all ages and levels, from one of the leading dance teams in the country and a couple of people hoping to qualify for the British Juniors this year in free skating, right down to people just setting out. From adults in their 60s to children of 5 and 6. The rule is that you must have your own skates, and you need to be having lessons from one of the coaches (not necessarily that day, but to be a recognised pupil).

We manage. It's not ideal, you do have to keep your eyes open all the time, but then, you do that anyway! And yes, sometimes you have to adjust your pattern slightly, or steepen your edge to go round a skater, but we still seem to manage. The only time we have even come close to having a really nasty accident was on club ice, not on teaching ice!

I take the line that if two or three of the leading ice-dance teams in the country can cope with these conditions - as they both can and do - anybody can. At the end of the day, we're all skaters, and we all need to be careful about looking out for one another.

[looplover]

Our rink has a special freestyle session on Saturday mornings called "Junior Development" and I tell you, this one session solves a lot of these problems. You're not supposed to be on it if you are above ISI FS4 and it's for LTS kids and adults. I've been on it when just learning FS4 elements but wouldn't go on it now that I've passed because it's really not for me.

I think part of the problem with freestyles is there's an entirely different set of rules and that is the ONLY session in which an advanced skater can practice; they don't have the option of going to a public and practicing. I started going to freestyles as a mid level skater (I guess I'm mid level, now I can do a loop and flip) and I was completely freaked out about possibly getting in people's way and figuring out when and where I should skate, etc., and my coach was there. I still don't do my program on them without my coach there but I think I'm being ridiculous.

So AndreaUK don't be offended, the freestyles are designed for certain levels because there's a lot of speed involved, a lot of changes and turns, and beginning skaters can't anticipate it as well when you've got a bunch of high level skaters on the ice at once.

I'm 38 and felt for a long time like I shouldn't be on a freestyle...meanwhile we had a seven year old working on doubles and she was right at home and belongs there much more than I did...

[lovepairs]

I'm in the camp of those who think LTS kids do not belong on figure skating sessions. LTS kids, in my experience, do not possess the physical and mental awareness to deal with the fast and furious skating that FS sessions are all about. If they require a grownup to keep an eye on them, they do not belong on a FS session. It's unfair to expect figure skaters to spend some of their time and mental energy on taking care of a little kid on the ice. So unless a coach is devoted to keeping them safe the entire session, no way.

Totally agree with you Skaternum.

Nova,

You hit the nail on the head with the thing about the "beach." For both coaches and Toddler parents: Convenience trumps Safety.

Okay, here's what I am going to do: I'm taking a pledge that whenever I see a LTS Toddler on a high level freestyle session (and, especially, sessions where it indecates a skating level,) with or without a coach, I am going directly to management to speak to them about it. Done.

I already had a little success with "hockey boy." Remember the little hockey boy staking out the end pattern at my rink on a Pairs/Dance/MIF session and his coach being the skating director. Well, I complained to management, they said something to her, and all though she still brings hockey boy on, she now moves the kid around and defers to me when I'm practicing moves. I can live with that for now.

[AndreaUK]

I guess each rink has its own problems. Unfortunately the rink that I skate at, if i want to learn and progress I have no option other than use the patch session. I cannot practice spirals, 3 turns, lunges, waltz jumps etc on a public session that is full to capacity of stupid teenagers. My lessons with a coach are always on patch now which is a coaches reccomendation not mine. If there is likely to be a quiet period at the rink with no groups booked in, I do try to use the public ice but the majority of the time, particularly in the summer public sessions are filled to capacity so therefore there is very little other choice.

Andrea xx

[Sonic]

:bow: I guess each rink has its own problems. Unfortunately the rink that I skate at, if i want to learn and progress I have no option other than use the patch session. I cannot practice spirals, 3 turns, lunges, waltz jumps etc on a public session that is full to capacity of stupid teenagers. My lessons with a coach are always on patch now which is a coaches reccomendation not mine. If there is likely to be a quiet period at the rink with no groups booked in, I do try to use the public ice but the majority of the time, particularly in the summer public sessions are filled to capacity so therefore there is very little other choice.

Andrea xx

Hear, hear. You have every right to use the patch session, you are obviously a competent skater aware of others around you, your coach wants to teach you on the patch session so clearly has no concerns about you not being 'good' enough.

There's a million miles between adult learners who may not yet be very advanced to little kid 'skaters' who are a danger to others and themselves. (Sorry to repeat myself again!)

I have to say although I meet the criteria for our patch sessions - having lessions with one of the rink's coaches - I would describe myself as a 'high-level beginner' and admit to sometimes feeling unworthy and almost a little intimidated when there're senior level ice dancers and people practising doubles there.:cry: :bow:

S xxx

[skaternum]

I honestly didnt realise that seasoned skaters had such a massive problem with adult beginners. If this is the case, ill give up. <snip>
I honestly now see that there is a massive amount of snobbery within this sport.Calm down, AUK. The histrionics don't solve anything. This isn't about snobbery. I was an adult beginner at one time too. Started LTS right before I turned 31. Been there, done that. And I still believe what I believe. It's about safety, not snobbery. I'm one of the biggest proponents of getting adults into skating, so playing the snobbery card rings hollow with me.

I dont know how it works anywhere else but at my rink you simply dont go on patch unless your coach has deemed you worthy.It does NOT work that way at every rink. Have you not seen all the posts from people saying that, out of sheer greed or self-interest, coaches and rink management will allow almost anyone on the FS ice?

Beginner or not I know how to keep out of the way but it seems my presence there is infact in the way wether im up by the barrier or not.Given the greed and self-interest of many of the pros, I do not believe self-policing works. Everyone thinks himself or his paying students capable of getting out of the way and being cognizant on the ice. But as a generalization, beginning skaters are less able to do so. So, then, one solution is to ban the whole class of skaters. It's not about YOU. It's about a general class of skaters. I've been involved with this sport for 11 years, and I've seen more scary stuff on the ice than you'd believe. I genuinely think everyone would be safer if LTSers were on public or appropriate level session rather than FS sessions. I hardly think that makes me a snob.

[skaternum]

I cannot practice spirals, 3 turns, lunges, waltz jumps etc on a public session that is full to capacity of stupid teenagers.Allow me to turn the tables a little. Make the following substitutions and re-read:

spirals, 3 turns, lunges, waltz jumps = my program, moves in the field, double flips

public = FS

stupid teenagers = LTSers

Your needs would be greater than theirs because ??? Any parallels here?

[Lippylulu]

Our rink has very limited open public skating sessions in summer so there is just no time for my 9 year old LTS daughter to have her lesson. Our rink will allow her to have a private lesson with her coach during freestyle if she is above a Basic 3 or 4 I believe. It costs more so I am not thrilled about it, but its the only way she can fit in a lesson this summer. Her coach stays VERY close to her all the time so I am sureshe will not interfere with others.

[ouijaouija]

I'm am learning to skate, only just over a week learning! , and well I go whenever I can, mostly in the mornings because it is quiet, and I like that freedom of being able to go every day, not just on designated days just because I am a novice...

And well, my rink isn't exactly bursting with skaters, only on the weekends it is, and even then, I have not seen any accidents or stuff like that, though I did on one day see a few splatters of blood on the rink!

SO yeh, my rink doesn't have any of this freestyle sessions or anything, its all free for all, apart from the pirvate sessions for hockey etc

And even then, I think most advanced skaters belong to a skate club that has its own private sessions.

Most people are only casual skaters in my rink, thats about 95%. Rinks have to be realistic and make money.

[Sonic]

I think this thread has gone off on a bit of a tangent.

Lovepairs' argument in the first place was not whether competent adult skaters should have the use of the rink on patch sessions - or in fact whether competent LTSers should.

He/She (? -sorry, LP!) was talking specificially about very little children who's parents like to think their little darlings can skate, but the reality is somewhat different.

Harsh as it may sound and (I am probably going to get lynched here), I wholeheartedly agree that little kids like this are a complete pain in the a**, allowing such little kids being on patch sessions is a recipe for disaster - possibly even more so for the poor adult that will inevitably trip over the little 'angel'....

S xx

[ouijaouija]

i understand that, but some of the posts in the thread slowly moved to just LTS', and that includes me, so I was trying to defend myself :)

[Sonic]

i understand that, but some of the posts in the thread slowly moved to just LTS', and that includes me, so I was trying to defend myself :)
Can't say I blame you. Boy, when Lovepairs started this I guess he/she had no idea the thread would become this long lol....:D

S xxx

[Isk8NYC]

So IMHO, the way forward would be a compromise...eg having to be a certain level to skate on a patch, and also a minimum age (5?) Or do what Andrea's rink does - you have to be 'recommended' by a coach to skate on a patch.Great, positive suggestion; keep 'em coming.

[sue123]

Personally, I never skate on the freestyle sessions unless it's really uncrowded, just because I have limited peripheral vision, so I'm not as likely to see someone coming at me from the side. It's not a problem in day to day life, and I manage driving and doing everything just fine, but the close proximety of some freestyle sessions make me nervous. I have been lucky enough to find some empty public sessions where it's usually only a couple people, especially during the school year, but I can see where the problem of having LTS kids without the proper awareness and control can be an issue. Especially when there are high freestyle skaters. You get one junior or senior skater on the ice, and it seems like the take up the entire ice on their own.

[DallasSkater]

Whew...I was just referencing Skate-ism in fun on another thread.

Skaternum...we could turn the tables further....

Since there are more regular skaters than "elite" ones....would the elite skaters have rinks to skate if beginners were not participating? Would hockey then not be the only thing a rink would offer? Would another solution not be to forbid the minority of senior skaters off of most freestyle time slots so the majority with lower skills could have prime spots? Majority rules? giggle. Can you imagine the suggestion of one solution being the "ban of one group of skaters" when tables are turned in your direction? Could the high freestyler with such elite skills not have the responsibility to "get out of the way" of the "little people" all in the name of safety?

I am not really suggesting these things. However, I am tickled on how far apart the "sides" are. Truthfully, I do not know the solution but would bet that the compromise has not been posted here yet.

I am off to the rink before I break out in song "Give Peace A Chance"...I feel it coming on...eeeek!

[Mrs Redboots]

It does NOT work that way at every rink. Have you not seen all the posts from people saying that, out of sheer greed or self-interest, coaches and rink management will allow almost anyone on the FS ice?I do think it varies from rink to rink. And from coach to coach - some will put skaters on the teaching ice when they aren't quite ready, and the net result is that the skater is terrified and makes no progress. A more sensible coach doesn't do that, but keeps the skater on the public ice, or on a different session.

At one rink not far from here, though, there is nowhere for learn-to-skate adults to practice - they are not allowed on the teaching ice, but the public ice isn't really suitable..... rather a catch 22! I suppose there are dedicated sessions for those taking classes, but at least one skater of my acquaintance, who takes dance at this rink and free skating elsewhere, is confined to learning dance on the public ice, which is very far from ideal!

So you can't win.....

[Mrs Redboots]

SO yeh, my rink doesn't have any of this freestyle sessions or anything, its all free for all, apart from the pirvate sessions for hockey etcI think you'll find they probably do have patch ice (it's called "patch" or "teaching" ice in this country, not freestyle ice), but you aren't aware of it yet! I know they have at least one patch session before the dance club ice on a Sunday morning, and I imagine they have patch every day before the rink opens to the public.

[lovepairs]

WE ARE TALKING 6 YEARS OLD AND YOUNGER. BEGINNING ADULTS HAVE WEIGHT, HEIGHT, AND AWARENESS (AT LEAST) EVEN IF THEY DON'T HAVE TOTAL COORDINATION, YET. THIS IS ABOUT TODDLERS!

Given the greed and self-interest of many of the pros, I do not believe self-policing works. Everyone thinks himself or his paying students capable of getting out of the way and being cognizant on the ice. But as a generalization, beginning skaters are less able to do so. So, then, one solution is to ban the whole class of skaters. It's not about YOU. It's about a general class of skaters. I've been involved with this sport for 11 years, and I've seen more scary stuff on the ice than you'd believe. I genuinely think everyone would be safer if LTSers were on public or appropriate level session rather than FS sessions. I hardly think that makes me a snob.

This is not about snobbery of one adult skater as oppossed to another. So, AndreaUK we are not talking about you--no need to throw in the towel.

Okay, I have another thing to say about TODDLERS in cute little skating dresses wearing helmets. You think they are safe on a high freestyle session as long as they are with their coach? Well, all it becomes is DOUBLE THE TROUBLE (both the Toddler and the Coach by the kid's side make for one big dangerous package when your coming through.)

[lovepairs]

Oh, by the way, Sonic...I'm a girl. :P

[skaternum]

Fundamentally, the issue is not enough ice time and multiple levels / kinds of skaters. How this is resolved is up to each individual rink or club offering ice, and there are clearly a multitude of ways this is currently handled. In an ideal world, we'd have separate sessions for LTS, low freestyle, high freestyle, moves, dance, and pairs. But this is reality. If I have to come down on one side or the other, I come down on the side of safety rather than inclusion on figure skating sessions. YMMV.

One of the questions asked along the way here is how to make things better. That depends on what the problem is and what the options are in your specific skating world. We're not going to find a one-size-fits-all solution.

[twokidsskatemom]

Like I said a few post ago.. Im an ideal world I guess every level would have ice.
But I bet in at least 90 percent of the markets, that will not happen. In most rinks, you have a few hours of ice every day period.It has to be shared.
I guess the people who feel this is an real issue and need the space can buy the ice themselves and then they can choose who skates.
My so called toddlers have been on fs ice since age 4.Its what what works for our club and our rinks and our skaters.We all know we must get along and play nicely.I would rather have my 5 year doing his programs run thoughs on Fs ice than the public ice with hockey boys on it.
We did have a senior level girls doing triples who used to buy 30 minutes of ice cause she felt like she needed the space.

[pairman2]

I think it would be fairly accurate to say that in many instances, there are more lover level skaters then high level, except at a relatively few development centers. It's like a pyramid
Numbers of attendance at MOST rinks:


hi freestyle
low freestyle
learn to skate
p u b l i c

No one is denying the rights of the lowers levels. In fact, the status quo is that they get their way more times then not, sometimes at the expense of the minority, higher level skaters. A by product of this (maybe it's a good thing) is that it drives good skaters right out of that rink seeking the few places where they can open up all cylinders without the fear of squashing someone. In the same way that all skaters were once the LTS crowd, it's equally true that someday, some of the LTS crowd will end up being elite skaters or skilled adult skaters needing room and the cooperation and awareness of everyone on the ice to get through programs, MIF, fast dances etc. Maybe it can be said that no one will ever get to elite or proficient adult unless they have quality no-toddler ice at least some of the time.

A note about new slow adults. There is one big difference. They often hug the side and are looking around intensely, if for no other reason then just fear. That is a far cry from the toddler looking down, marching straight into someones spin!!!!!

If a rink has a true hi level session(s) problem is solved as long as it's enforced. It's a given that if there are hi level sessions, then hi skaters will make more comprimises on the regular sessions and not have the same expectations as their hi level. 'Exceptions' destroy everything here. A high level is no longer a high level if exceptions are made for lower level kids and their coaches. At the 1 single hi level we have at my rink, a long term exception has been made for 1 person. (I have no idea why). That person stands at the ends, (ususally just watching other skaters), right where I have to bring my MIF end patterns and I usually have to abort them 2 or 3 at a time. I estimate I lose about 10 minutes of my practice due to needed restarts. That same session has a coach on ice who often refuses to move from a dead standstill at the center of the ice. I've addressed that and hopefully it will change. (A whole thread could also be dedicated to the great need for general ettiquette from the coaching crowd, such as please don't give your lessons on the patch of ice right in front of the single entry exit door to the ice!)

[lovepairs]

About the fact that we don't live in an ideal world, and there is probably not a one-size fits all solution to the problem.

I think that we all agree that when we see a "Skating Princess/Toddler" marching obliviously around in a high-level freestyle session that as Adult Skaters we begin to say something to management, coaches, or parents, which ever seems more reasonable given the specific context.

I think this is something we can agree to begin doing collectively to solve this problem...make our voices heard. I will do this where I skate and I hope that others will try to do the same for the sake of everyone's safety.

Okay, good idea Pairsman2...I'm starting the new thread on skating etiquette right now.

Bye everyone!

Lovepairs

[AndreaUK]

About the fact that we don't live in an ideal world, and there is probably not a one-size fits all solution to the problem.

I think that we all agree that when we see a "Skating Princess/Toddler" marching obliviously around in a high-level freestyle session that as Adult Skaters we begin to say something to management, coaches, or parents, which ever seems more reasonable given the specific context.

I think this is something we can agree to begin doing collectively to solve this problem...make our voices heard. I will do this where I skate and I hope that others will try to do the same for the sake of everyone's safety.

Okay, good idea Pairsman2...I'm starting the new thread on skating etiquette right now.

Bye everyone!

Lovepairs

I do agree its plain dangerous for a small child to be on a FS session. I also agree with the comments that there are no solutions that will fix all. Also I would imagine that this topic has been debated, discussed and argued for many years not just hear and now. I think it will always be an ongoing thing too. Basically looking at lots of points of view its a case of everyone being aware of each other and respecting one another on the ice. I do think though that little children who do not have experience, expertise, motor control etc should perhaps skate on a seperate session more suited to their age and needs purely for safety issues.

However the good thing ive noticed about our patch sessions is that everyone has mutual respect for each other and so far I havent seen any problems.

[beachbabe]

Learn to Skate kids are not figure skaters or even close. They have yet mastered the skills to be called a figure skater and it's best they stay off the ice.

I don't want to have to owrry about them getting in my way while I am seriously trying to get some ice time in. I'm not going to worry if I hurt them or not, if they get hurt...that is their fault. They got in the way. If they knew any better they would have stayed out of the way and off the ice.

It's unfair to those who are really skating to risk getting hurt because some stupid spoiled brat thinks freestyle sessions means LTS sessions.

They are more then welcome at public sessions but have no business skating with those who can actually skate.

This is why we have freestyle sessions, so we don't have to worry about the kids getting in our way. We pay a lot of these and should be able to enjoy them.


this post just made my day:lol:

This has to be the funniest thing I've ever read! Especially coming from you...being not much higher than a LTS'er. LTS in USFSA teaches you through lutz and axel preparation which based on what I know about you...you are years away from.


I think its not the age of a skater, or their skill that qualifies them over another skater to use freestyle ice.

If I'm skating my program, I don't give a crap if there are 6 year old LTS kids on the ice as long as they are able to give me the right of way if I have it. If a young child is on the ice with their coach and i am practicing by myself- it would be plain rude to expect here to move out of the way for me.


Its all about right of way- and if you can respect it and know the rules i don't see a problem with you being on the ice- whether you're 6 or 46 or even 86.

Being a LTS kid does not make you a 3rd degree skater...nor does being 6 years old. I think its the job of the rink and coaches to speak to parents or any skater that is causing trouble and ask them to leave the ice.

[lovepairs]

Beachbabe,

Could you please explain "right of way" etiquette on the new "Etiquette" thread. I think it would be really helpful and spark some good conversation about "right of way."

Best,
lovepairs

[slusher]

I'm in Canada. I skate occasionally at a competitive club that offers open sessions during the day when the ice is dead. ANYONE can be on this ice, 3 year olds, hockey kids, senior men, pairs teams, international dancers and yes adults from beginners to advanced.

(alright I was a bit intimidated when the pairs showed up one day).

the rules are:

You must have a coach on the ice with you and be receiving a lesson the entire time (so it gets expensive).
The club must have a contract in place with that coach. Not everyone is approved.
The coach is only allowed to have one skater or team under their supervision at any time.

The rules on the ice are the same as anywhere: Stay out of the way of skaters who have their music on, and try to stay out of the way of the coaches when they are intently in a lesson.

If you're not currently skating, get yourself to the side of the ice.

If you get in someone's way, APOLOGIZE.

Which is how I got a really sincere "sorry" out of Jeff Buttle one day.

Notice what is common here? For insurance and risk management purposes and ownership of the ice, the club sets the boundaries and are very good at enforcing them.

Coaches who do not follow those rules or have skaters follow those rules lose their ice privileges.

There are the usual evening sessions, high/low dance and freestyle and if you don't have the right test, you don't get on the sesssion. Again, strong club ownership.

Sometimes I read these posts from you guys in the USA and it's darn scary!

[Skate@Delaware]

I think the high/low issue will be interesting when my club tries it for the first time in September (when we re-open). The dividing line will be whether or not you have all your single jumps (except axel) or not (and makes no mention about ice dancing). Is this how it is divided at other sessions at other rinks? Could someone please enlighten me because I am ignorant about this.

So, everyone who is working on their jumps but doesn't have all of them will be on low-level and everyone else is on high UNLESS you are in a lesson then you go where into the session where your lesson is.

It still does nothing to resolve the issue of the little ones (or even the big girls) understanding or comprehending about yielding the right-of-way when someone is running through their program...they will just be marking time until their lesson or just be skating around working on moves.

I think this is going to create more problems that it solves.

[sue123]

I'm in Canada. I skate occasionally at a competitive club that offers open sessions during the day when the ice is dead. ANYONE can be on this ice, 3 year olds, hockey kids, senior men, pairs teams, international dancers and yes adults from beginners to advanced.

(alright I was a bit intimidated when the pairs showed up one day).

the rules are:

You must have a coach on the ice with you and be receiving a lesson the entire time (so it gets expensive).
The club must have a contract in place with that coach. Not everyone is approved.
The coach is only allowed to have one skater or team under their supervision at any time.

The rules on the ice are the same as anywhere: Stay out of the way of skaters who have their music on, and try to stay out of the way of the coaches when they are intently in a lesson.

If you're not currently skating, get yourself to the side of the ice.


So you actually need to be taking a lesson the entire time you're on the ice? When do you practice? Or is the lesson rule only for open ice? That just doesn't make sense to me, you can't just show up and skate for the session? If I had to pay my coach for a 2 hour lesson, I'd be broke. There'd be no way I could afford that.

[techskater]

We have a Juv and above session and a Prejuv and above session at one rink. One other rink has an Axel and above session and a double jump and above session. At my home rink, most of our FS sessions are open.

[lovepairs]

This is a little off topic, but:

By the way, just because we are "TEAMS" don't assume that it's a good thing to make a Pairs/Dance session. It's like mixing oranges and mayonaisse.

NEWSFLASH:

Pairs do much better with freeskaters, and dancers do much better MIF folks. The common denominator is "patterns" not "teams" for dancers. The common denomintor is "freestyle" not "teams" for pairs.

I feel like SCREAMING everytime I see a Pairs/Dance session--ugh!!! :frus:

[Skate@Delaware]

Our ice dancers have been "banned" from club ice because of the "danger" they created...even though they did an excellent job of manuevering around everyone! They NEVER even came close to colliding with anyone! I have seen more collisions and close calls from the freestylers than with our ice dancers...

We have no pair skaters.yet. Our only boys are 18 and 6 years of age.

[LoopLoop]

I'm pretty lucky; my primary rink is very FS-oriented. The rule is that a skater must have passed FS3 (ISI, that is; salchow, toe loop, change foot spin, back spiral, etc.) in order to skate any FS session. As a corollary, the lower-level skaters practice and have their private lessons during public sessions. We have publics seven days a week, and more than one most days. Given these circumstances, things work pretty well. Most of the year the FS sessions are not divided by level, but during the summer they are divided as follows:
Low - no-test through preliminary
Middle - pre-juvenile through intermediate
High - novice through senior

A lot of the summer sessions are combined low/middle or middle/high.

Another rink I skate at occasionally (and where jenlyon skates too) allows absolutely anyone on FS ice; I've seen skaters working on triples at one end of the ice and absolute beginners in rental skates and helmets learning swizzles at the other end. That's one reason I don't skate at that rink very often.

[samba]

Okay, I have another thing to say about TODDLERS in cute little skating dresses wearing helmets. You think they are safe on a high freestyle session as long as they are with their coach? Well, all it becomes is DOUBLE THE TROUBLE (both the Toddler and the Coach by the kid's side make for one big dangerous package when your coming through.)

Thanks lovepairs this is a snip from my thread on page 3, and I forgot to mention that the child was with a coach, its the most horrifying sight I have ever seen.

<Samba>it’s like a car hitting a child, they go right up in the air, in this case the advance skater tried to catch the child and ended up with a dislocated thumb, the child however came off a lot worse and ended up with a cracked skull.

[AW1]

Head up AW:

The bottom line is do you want your kid alive, very hurt, or at the worst dead. If you're baby is 4, or 5 and is on sessions with Adults, older kids and teenagers doing doubles, dance, and or pair teams, she doesn't belong on these sessions, and if for nothing else other than the height and weight difference.

lovepairs - heads up! Kids are baby goats. And yes I'm perfectly happy with my daughter just the way she is. I can't even reply to the rest of your post cause it made me so darn mad!:twisted:

And yes I do think she's a figure skater. And what I think seems to be the problem is people with bad attitudes, who would prefer adult only skating sessions. Well face the facts, the learners bring in the $$$ in most places, as do the public sessions, so chances of them being barred from most ice time is pretty slim.

[lovepairs]

AW,

You want to continue to think your little one is an accomplished figure skater who has the where withall to get out of the way when a pair team is coming down the lift lane at full speed then countinue to put her on high-level session and play Russian roulette with her safety--be my guest. Would you send her out on the highway to play in traffic? It's a free country, and apparently a total free for all at most rinks. Do whatever you want, because the system is set up that way to pander to parents just like you. They don't give a darn about your childs safety, they just want your money. You seem to be on the same page with management.

However, I've made a commitment to say something to rink, or club management whenever I see a Toddler (I mean a toddler) on a high free style session.

You can do whatever you want, she's your kid, good luck! The big irony here is that I don't even have kids and seem to care about your kid's safety more then you do. From someone who wasn't blessed to have children, let me say how LUCKY you are to have her, and encourage you, as her parent to watch out for her safety on the ice.

[Sonic]

AW,

You want to continue to think your little one is an accomplished figure skater who has the where withall to get out of the way when a pair team is coming down the lift lane at full speed then countinue to put her on high-level session and play Russian roulette with her safety--be my guest. Would you send her out on the highway to play in traffic? It's a free country, and apparently a total free for all at most rinks. Do whatever you want, because the system is set up that way to pander to parents just like you. They don't give a darn about your childs safety, they just want your money. You seem to be on the same page with management.

However, I've made a commitment to say something to rink, or club management whenever I see a Toddler (I mean a toddler) on a high free style session.

You can do whatever you want, she's your kid, good luck! The big irony here is that I don't even have kids and seem to care about your kid's safety more then you do. From someone who wasn't blessed to have children, let me say how LUCKY you are to have her, and encourage you, as her parent to watch out for her safety on the ice.

I agree with you, Lovepairs. Sorry, but there are times and places that are NOT suitable for toddlers, and it's about time some parents woke up and realised that the earth does not revolve around their [baby goats] ooops I mean children.

You know the ironic thing?

If (God forbid) an accident occurs, you know who will get the blame.

The star-struck parent who thinks their three year old is a skater? NO! It will be the poor unfortunate skater who trips over it!

S xxx

[Skate@Delaware]

I am an adult skater that has the presence of mind to watch out for the other skaters when I am on the ice. Saying that, I have only been on ONE true freestyle session. I have a hard enough time concentrating on my skating, let along paying attention to the other skaters and if I need to get out of their way. Factor in my hearing loss and it compounds the problem.

Skating is hard enough. Add all these other problems and it becomes even more difficult.

[Mrs Redboots]

Our ice dancers have been "banned" from club ice because of the "danger" they created...even though they did an excellent job of manuevering around everyone! They NEVER even came close to colliding with anyone! I have seen more collisions and close calls from the freestylers than with our ice dancers...

We have no pair skaters.yet. Our only boys are 18 and 6 years of age.Our pairs skaters are all well over 40, and in some cases in their 60s and 70s! Don't seem able to interest the young in pairs (wonder why not?!)

Our dance couples do, occasionally, use Figure Club ice (I have been known to myself; in fact both Husband and I belong to both Dance and Figure club - Husband is on the committee of both, but then he likes committees, I don't!), on the run-up to a competition, but none of us would dream of doing compulsory dances on that ice, we would think that rude. We do feel free to do our free dance, though, although we wouldn't if it was interfering with anybody doing serious work, which they tend not to on club ice. Used to be a really quiet session, alas, not no more.

And it was on Figure Club ice that we came nearest to having a Nasty Accident when a child in the power-skating class very nearly cannoned into my skate while I was in a lift (for our interp couples, not dance, for once!). Managed to avoid her, but it worried me....

I overheard Little Princess' mother this morning reminding her to be very careful and stay out of our elite teams' way - they have been on holiday, and kids that age take some reminding. She is very good about not getting in the way, though, and we have been known to take advantage of her music (she's learning her Level 2 Compulsories, which has music we need this year, very useful). And oh, you should have seen her trying to stretch at the boards like the "big ones".... so sweet.... she couldn't quite reach to the top of the barrier, even with her free leg almost vertical!

[Tennisany1]

This is a very interesting thread. As I have said, I'm the mother of a 6 year old. Don't let her hear you say she is a toddler! She skates with kids who are 8 through 12 and keeps up quite nicely. She can land up to a flip and has a nice spiral and spins well. We are very lucky to have a club that has junior, senior and open ice and yes, she she skates on the open session provided it is not too busy. In the summer we have junior, intermediate, and senior ice and the skating director tells you where to skate.

Now, if we didn't have all these divisions where would you have me put her? She is six so it sounds like many of you would have her on LTS ice. Would that be safe for the LTS kids? The difference between her and the LTS kids is about the same as the difference between her and a some of the kids on the senior ice. She can't practice with LTS, and they are intimidated by her. I have no problem with the idea that LTS kids shouldn't be on FS sessions provided they have practice time of there own. But please don't assume because a child is 6 they are an LTS skater. Session divisions need to be made based on ability and when you have divisions it may mean everyone has less ice time. If your rink doesn't have LTS practice time or private lesson time, how will those kids ever improve and become "real" figure skaters? Depending on how long the FS sessions are, maybe suggest to your rink that the first 20 minutes be for LTS skates only to have practice and or private lessons. This shortens the FS session but makes sure there is no one "marching around with their head down." Of course, this still doesn't deal with the large group of 6 year olds who are neither senior nor LTS. If we don't encourage these 6 year olds there will be very few people on the senior FS sessions in a few years and then what will happen to that ice time?

[Sonic]

Going back to something I suggested earlier, I guess the best approach the best approach be to say that skaters can skate on patch sessions provided they are at a minimum level and have to be 'recommended' by their coach.

IMHO there should be a minimum age - it depends on the individual child of course, some 5 and 6 year olds will have ability and awareness of those around them, but I still say kids under that age are simply too young and do not yet possess sufficient motor skills.

S xxx

[Skate@Delaware]

Sonic, I agree that some children do not have sufficient motor skills and are not able to have the kind of awareness of their surroundings for freestyle sessions. But there are some adults/teens who also lack awareness, either on purpose or due to some other reason (medical condition, medication, etc).

I know I have a problem being sufficiently aware of others if it's too crowded and would rather not be bothered having to pay attention to 20 others and myself. I do self-police myself though. When I feel it's too crowded for me, I get off the ice.

Maybe a minimum age/level AND a coach PLUS skating director recommendation would be best. Just getting a coach recommendation wouldn't work at my rink, as some of our kids are "coached" by their mothers.

We do have a few "ice diva's" that will skate as if they own the place and will skate into you no matter what; or not yield to you no matter what. They are just as much, if not more, dangerous.

But I know that even though I may be completely in the right, I would do all I could to bail out if I saw a toddler in my way. It's just me and the way I am. I know I am 5 times bigger and the child would get hurt terribly. I couldn't live with the guilt that I could have bailed, even though I had the right of way.

[Hannahclear]

The kids can be annoying, because they are often pretty clueless, but it's my job as the much bigger person to bail first. And I do. I have no desire to get into a collision.

So I do bail on things in crowded sessions fairly often, but that's just something I deal with.

[Skate@Delaware]

It's nerve-racking as a new skater on a public session with tons of skaters zooming around. You don't have the skills to bail out. Then, as your skills build, you eventually do have the skills to bail out most of the time. There will be the occasional time when there is absolutely no way you can. But, that's why the better skater should try (especially on public ice). Most of the kids are clueless about the rules anyhow (on public ice and sometimes on freestyle). Sometimes they just forget.

[FrankR]

But I know that even though I may be completely in the right, I would do all I could to bail out if I saw a toddler in my way. It's just me and the way I am. I know I am 5 times bigger and the child would get hurt terribly. I couldn't live with the guilt that I could have bailed, even though I had the right of way.

I feel the exact same way about this. Although I understand and have felt the frustration of not getting the right of way when I am in a program run-through or in a lesson, in the end, if another skater (regardless of age) gets in my way and cannot move quickly enough to get out of my way, I accomplish nothing by plowing into them and quite possibly hurting them and mostly likely myself in the process. The way I see it, I practice elements and run-through programs quite a bit. Having to bail out of one spin or jump in or out of a program run-through is not the end of the world.

[Sonic]

I think the point has been missed here.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with being the 'bigger person'.

Of course you would 'bail out' if your skating along and there's someone in the way (be it a toddler or an advanced skater), same way you would if you're driving and someone steps out in front of you - you slam on the brakes.

The whole point is not whether you would WANT to 'bail out', its whether you would be ABLE to 'bail out' or even see the toddler in the first place, because they would sure as heck not have the ability to get out of your way.

S xxx

[twokidsskatemom]

I think the point has been missed here.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with being the 'bigger person'.

Of course you would 'bail out' if your skating along and there's someone in the way (be it a toddler or an advanced skater), same way you would if you're driving and someone steps out in front of you - you slam on the brakes.

The whole point is not whether you would WANT to 'bail out', its whether you would be ABLE to 'bail out' or even see the toddler in the first place, because they would sure as heck not have the ability to get out of your way.

S xxx

The better skater is supposed to WATCH for lower level skater at all times. Its not an age or size issue.
On fs ice, my 7 year old watches out for the skaters that are double her size but not at her level.
Unless you can afford to buy your own ice, we all have to do the best we can with what the rink offers. We all dont have a ton of rinks and options.
Life isnt perfect and skating isnt either.
:giveup:

[Skate@Delaware]

Well, that puts a different spin on it. But if it's assumed that we will bail out every time because we are bigger, then that one time will be the one in which the little kid will get creamed because they happened to be in our "blind spot." Who gets the blame then?

I don't want to have to bail out of elements when I'm running through my program...I don't think anyone does. I hope that I'm able to bail out if someone is in my way but I know I'm not that great a skater. You can only tempt the fates so many times before you run out of luck.

Little kids just happen to move like rogue asteroids-they show up out of the blue and BAM there they are! And they have a knack for showing up under your radar, especially when you are setting up for a jump or raising your leg in a spin...

And, I just wanted to add, I still see better skaters doing back crossovers without looking where they are going....if they knock into me, who's at fault?

[Sonic]

Well, that puts a different spin on it. But if it's assumed that we will bail out every time because we are bigger, then that one time will be the one in which the little kid will get creamed because they happened to be in our "blind spot." Who gets the blame then?

I don't want to have to bail out of elements when I'm running through my program...I don't think anyone does. I hope that I'm able to bail out if someone is in my way but I know I'm not that great a skater. You can only tempt the fates so many times before you run out of luck.

Little kids just happen to move like rogue asteroids-they show up out of the blue and BAM there they are! And they have a knack for showing up under your radar, especially when you are setting up for a jump or raising your leg in a spin...

And, I just wanted to add, I still see better skaters doing back crossovers without looking where they are going....if they knock into me, who's at fault?

Eloquently put, Skate@Delaware. That's exactly the point I was trying to make.

S xxx

[slusher]

So you actually need to be taking a lesson the entire time you're on the ice? When do you practice? Or is the lesson rule only for open ice? That just doesn't make sense to me, you can't just show up and skate for the session? If I had to pay my coach for a 2 hour lesson, I'd be broke. There'd be no way I could afford that.

The coach/lesson rule is only for the open ice during the day. Mostly it's used for people doing choreography or intense practice before a test day and an hour can fly by. Most people do an hour. They then skate on their usual evening sessions and have their 15 minute lesson or no lesson at all, what you guys would call a freestyle session.

Which is why I'm not skating this summer. Work has gotten in the way of going to evening sessions, and to go skate for an hour would cost me about $60, although I'd get a pretty intense lesson out of it.

Again, the strong Canadian system is superior, where 99% of skaters are in clubs, coaches must be NCCP certified (a 3 year process and longer) and having a certified coach is a requirement to skate in a club. Misbehave, and it's hard to find somewhere to skate.

[twokidsskatemom]

[/QUOTE]And, I just wanted to add, I still see better skaters doing back crossovers without looking where they are going....if they knock into me, who's at fault?[QUOTE]

If one was to blame anyone, it was the better skater for not watching. Not one person who skaters owns the ice. We all have to share.
My daughter skates with a very tall skinny 22 year old.He is at least 6 foot 5.She knows at watch for him always, A because he is so tall and has huge camels.He watches for her as he is a better skater.
If you teach kids and adults how to be aware and the rules, it really is possible to share the ice. Accidents always will happen, its a part of the sport.

[ouijaouija]

i was on today and it was busy, with the little hockey kids just skimming close to my sides, I swear they don't have to do that. As well as that there were lots of kiddies going the other way, and I couldn't even practise anything, it was that busy

I'm never goin in the weekends again, weekday mornings, thatswhere it is!

[Hannahclear]

It's really different if you are in the middle of your program. In that case, the rules clearly state who is responsible for moving, and it's not the person who has the right of way.

I've never had a collision during a program, or any serious collision at all. I have yelled "EXCUSE ME" so loud that another adult skater got scared and crashed into the boards. I apologized afterward, I didn't mean to scare her! 8O

Maybe this isn't as much of an issue for me because the clubs near me have rules about ice? There may be some younger skaters on the ice, but they have to finish Basic Skills before they can go to a FS session.

I also skate at 6am most of the year, twice per week. The ice isn't that crowded, so a couple of kids don't really impact the session. I also skate on an Adult FS session for about 1/2 the year, and that's heaven.

One of the days I skate, I share the ice with kids who have doubles and are really very good skaters. I'm far more intimidated by their skills than I am by LTS level. The little ones aren't very fast. My skills are good, and I am comfortable changing direction etc, but somebody flying down the ice into a double jump inspires me to head for the boards. Of course, when I'm in my lesson, this isn't an issue, because I have my coach to act as my second pair of eyes.

[beachbabe]

......

The whole point is not whether you would WANT to 'bail out', its whether you would be ABLE to 'bail out' or even see the toddler in the first place, because they would sure as heck not have the ability to get out of your way.

S xxx


very good point!!

My sight is very limited when I skate and in some moves I would have to alter my technique to be able to see. The problem with kids is that they are so short, jsut seeing in front or behind is not enough...you have to see close to the ice also.

Makes it very difficult to avoid kids.

Come to think about it, every colision I've ever had with a skater has been with a skater whose head is below my hip. I've always been able to avoid a collision with someone whose height is above my hip.

Fact is, you have to have a great awareness of your surroundings and skill to be safe on a high freestyle session.


All I can say to any parents on here that want to put their young kids on freestyles (I am only speaking about the kids that cannot yield right of way and have no clue about the rules) your children will have to deal with people like me. If I have the right of way I will never bail out of a move unless I see danger in it for me. If your toddler is in the way and can't move...too bad. And guess what...suing is futile. Because you have to sign a waiver saying that you are responsible for any possible injuries!

that being said...I have no problem with kids if they know the rules and stay aware of their surroundings.:P

[Tennisany1]

whole post


Must say I find this very concerning. If you have some kind of disability that limits your vision what happens when you get in the way of a small person who is doing his or her program, who has launched into a jump and can't bail out? When that collision happens I don't care about waivers, how would you feel if the small person is seriously or permanently injured? I know this thread is about LTS kids, but this just amazes me. This is way more dangerous than a small child marching around.

I sure hope I have misunderstood whatever sight issue you have. :giveup:

[beachbabe]

Must say I find this very concerning. If you have some kind of disability that limits your vision what happens when you get in the way of a small person who is doing his or her program, who has launched into a jump and can't bail out? When that collision happens I don't care about waivers, how would you feel if the small person is seriously or permanently injured? I know this thread is about LTS kids, but this just amazes me. This is way more dangerous than a small child marching around.

I sure hope I have misunderstood whatever sight issue you have. :giveup:


I know other people's programs and am aware of where they are when they do them (younger kids included). The real problem is with young kids standing around or moving so slowly they may as well be standing around.

When you're setting up for a jump or a spin- there is a limited range that you can see- this is not called a disability ( an example would be a lift lane as someone else mentioned, there are blindspots but unlike cars- we don't have rear view mirrors). You can't be expected to have eyes in the back of your head! A 3 year old who is not moving is a hazard- its like having a barrel on the ice and you never know whether it may roll somewhere or if its not going to move at all. With an experienced skater it is much easier to predict what they may be setting up for.

Its not like I purposely look to hurt someone- but if i feel its too late to bail out of a jump I'm not going to put myself at risk for injury by trying to avoid a slow child who decided to skate out right in front of me when i had my back turned. Accidents happen and can be prevented by requiring some sort of ability on a freestyle session.

[mikawendy]

If I have the right of way I will never bail out of a move unless I see danger in it for me. If your toddler is in the way and can't move...too bad. And guess what...suing is futile. Because you have to sign a waiver saying that you are responsible for any possible injuries!


Okay, so first off, let me say that I'm not a lawyer. However, I believe that most rinks' waivers specifically pertain to people not holding the RINK management and staff responsible for any possible injuries. So in certain circumstances, might there be liability issues between two colliding skaters if one of those skaters (or his or her parents) believed the other party to be malicious or extremely at fault? I'm ****NOT*** saying that the "injured" party SHOULD sue--however, is this likely in some rare instances if one party felt it was a very deliberate act or something like that?

[lovepairs]

When you're setting up for a jump or a spin- there is a limited range that you can see- this is not called a disability ( an example would be a lift lane as someone else mentioned, there are blindspots but unlike cars- we don't have rear view mirrors). You can't be expected to have eyes in the back of your head! A 3 year old who is not moving is a hazard- its like having a barrel on the ice and you never know whether it may roll somewhere or if its not going to move at all. With an experienced skater it is much easier to predict what they may be setting up for.

Its not like I purposely look to hurt someone- but if i feel its too late to bail out of a jump I'm not going to put myself at risk for injury by trying to avoid a slow child who decided to skate out right in front of me when i had my back turned. Accidents happen and can be prevented by requiring some sort of ability on a freestyle session.


Beach,

A three year old on the ice who is not moving, or just marching straight forward, with or without, a coach is a total hazard on a high-level Freetyle session. Children even slightly older (up to six) without any body coordination and abilities, is a hazard, too.

Up until this point I've been a real advocate for "Toddler Safety," but I'm getting a little fedup from a few parents who wish to argue the obvious. Now, I'd like to say something on behalf of the rest of the skaters on the high freestyle, whether they be dancers, singles, or pairs: we've had it with constantly having to abort everything for the sake of your kid, it is a hazard to OUR safety, and we have a right to skate for the session we paid for, which is a high-freestyle session. So, get your PRINCESS off the ice!

Tennisany1,

I understand your concern about where are you suppossed to put your daughter, because she has outgrown the LTS, but is still small enough to be in danger and a hazard to others on a high freestle session. If you read back on the thread, there was a lot of discussion to suggest implementing a "bridge" session for 5 and 6 year olds who have graduated from LTS, but are not ready for a high, and some for even a low-freestyle. It is not your fault that you have no choice but to put your kid out in a dangerous situation, because you are right, there is nothing in between for these kids, which is why there is such a high atrition rate from the LTS programs. I'm going to put a call into USFSA to see if anyone in this institution would even be willing to take a look at this situation. Please don't take this personally--I know it is infuriating for both sides.

[looplover]

Up until this point I've been a real advocate for "Toddler Safety," but I'm getting a little fedup from a few parents who wish to argue the obvious. Now, I'd like to say something on behalf of the rest of the skaters on the high freestyle, whether they be dancers, singles, or pairs: we've had it with constantly having to abort everything for the sake of your kid, it is a hazard to OUR safety, and we have a right to skate for the session we paid for, which is a high-freestyle session. So, get your PRINCESS off the ice!.

Every Sunday I go to a public session and see around 10 figure skating children practicing in the middle, some very advanced (working on doubles), some just out of LTS and in private lessons...it always goes well, no collisions, and everyone is happy. The only ones at a disadvantage are those of us who would normally be on a freestyle but this is cheaper and fun, as the kids teach each other...and me ...

Most of these kids don't belong on a freestyle session. Just today there were insane hockey kids but these kids were still able to practice jump after jump.

Either we are very lucky in FL and at my rink in particular, or the moms don't realize public sessions are safer? (I'm sorry...they ARE...and I'm not a high level skater)

[twokidsskatemom]

:giveup: :giveup: :giveup:
Guess Im glad we live where folks are tolerent of each other. No one would have any ice if we had to break it down to every persons level, under 6 ect.Fs are supportive of each other at our rinks, no matter what level or age.
Im not sure why people feel a need to be snotty or call names. That is just as rude coming from an adult as a child.
:giveup:
I dont think its any safer having anyone do doubles on public ice. That isnt what its for, unless you have very empty ice.

[Tennisany1]

My sight is very limited when I skate and in some moves I would have to alter my technique to be able to see.

Beachbabe, sorry I misunderstood you. I took the above quote to mean that you had some kind of problem seeing that went beyond skating. I assumed it was something like you really need strong glasses for distance but didn't wear them for skating. Obviously I was incorrect I should have asked for clarification.

Lovepairs, As I said in my post, I am extremely lucky to belong to a club where we do have FS ice for different levels. We also have a bridge program. My daughter has in fact moved out of the program and into the regular junior program. She usually skates on junior ice and there are no unusual safety issues there. She does, however, skate on an open session once per week but I would not let her on without her coach if it was too busy. She has also come off on her own a couple of times because she feels uncomfortable. I should also say that we don't have any pairs practicing at our rink.

My daughter is very fortunate with the facilities available to her for skating (not that she realizes it:roll: ) I'm not sure if it is a Canadian thing or if we just lucked out with where we live but I will suggest that some of our parents who constantly complain about the ice time read this thread. It may make them appreciate what they have! :frus:

[jp1andOnly]

Tennisany,

The US system is WAY different than our CAN system. Up here, in order to do freeskate you usually belong to a club and pay to be on the appropraite freeskate session according to skill level. Sometimes there are exceptions, esepcailly if its "open" freeskate session.

In CAN, public skating is NOT meant for freeskate. Yes, some arenas do allow it, but overall, public skate is just that: for everyone. In the US its a bit different.

Its very very difficult to compare the US system and our CAN system with regardsto this topic.

Beachbabe, sorry I misunderstood you. I took the above quote to mean that you had some kind of problem seeing that went beyond skating. I assumed it was something like you really need strong glasses for distance but didn't wear them for skating. Obviously I was incorrect I should have asked for clarification.

Lovepairs, As I said in my post, I am extremely lucky to belong to a club where we do have FS ice for different levels. We also have a bridge program. My daughter has in fact moved out of the program and into the regular junior program. She usually skates on junior ice and there are no unusual safety issues there. She does, however, skate on an open session once per week but I would not let her on without her coach if it was too busy. She has also come off on her own a couple of times because she feels uncomfortable. I should also say that we don't have any pairs practicing at our rink.

My daughter is very fortunate with the facilities available to her for skating (not that she realizes it:roll: ) I'm not sure if it is a Canadian thing or if we just lucked out with where we live but I will suggest that some of our parents who constantly complain about the ice time read this thread. It may make them appreciate what they have! :frus:

[vesperholly]

The US system is WAY different than our CAN system. Up here, in order to do freeskate you usually belong to a club and pay to be on the appropraite freeskate session according to skill level. Sometimes there are exceptions, esepcailly if its "open" freeskate session.

In CAN, public skating is NOT meant for freeskate. Yes, some arenas do allow it, but overall, public skate is just that: for everyone. In the US its a bit different.
Perhaps it is Buffalo's proximity to Canada, but our skating sessions are run like this too. Very few people figure skate on public sessions - usually just young teens who've stopped at LTS and want to fool around with their friends - waltz jumps, shaky spins, etc. They're not seriously practicing. My rink actually has figure skating public sessions, but a 4-surface rink can offer such diversity. There are no level restrictions, but since they're in early afternoon they are usually empty - 6-7 people max, and often less. The only restrictions is that there can be no coaching, which has more to do with an ongoing feud between the club and the town than logic. :P

But this region has at least 10 rinks I can think of off the top of my head within a 30-mile radius, and at least 5 that are year-round. Many other areas are much less fortunate, and have to make do with the ice they have.

[AW1]

AW,

You can do whatever you want, she's your kid, good luck! The big irony here is that I don't even have kids and seem to care about your kid's safety more then you do. From someone who wasn't blessed to have children, let me say how LUCKY you are to have her, and encourage you, as her parent to watch out for her safety on the ice.

As a parent who just today experienced their child having to have surgery at 5, don't you EVER EVER EVER have the gall or audacity to question how much I care for my daughter's safety or wellbeing.

twokidsskatemom wrote :
Guess Im glad we live where folks are tolerent of each other. No one would have any ice if we had to break it down to every persons level, under 6 ect.Fs are supportive of each other at our rinks, no matter what level or age.


Amen to that! I live in a sub-tropical climate (not a skating area) where the local figure club only has 50 members - we have no pairs and no dance teams. If they started turning away skaters because of their age at freestyle sessions, then there would be NO freestyle skaters at all.

In places like here, it's not viable for the rinks to offer such bridge programs and given that skaters follow right of way there really shouldn't be any issues. I actually discussed this with my daughters coach over the weekend, as during the freestyle sessions, the rink also holds LTS 'add-ons' for the kids, so they can get extra practice. Once again, she mentioned it was all about respect - respecting other people's right of way and respecting that not everyone has the same ability as you!

[lovepairs]

First of all AW1, you are impossible to have a conversation with, because you are so deluded about your child's safety on the ice. I really don't believe I have any "galll" at all, as you put it, when I show concern for your child's safety on the ice. So, back off!

Your daughter's surgery is quite a different matter, and I send both you my best wishes for a very speedy recovery. Clearly, it sounds as though you have her safety in mind in one context, but not in the other context (meaning the ice.) Your inability to even entertain the idea that she might not be in a safe environment on the ice, and that her presence can not only cause harm to herself, but also to other skaters on a high free-stlye session, or have a rational conversation about it, really points out how deluded you are about what is really going on out there on the ice.

A very low blow for you to bring her surgery into the mix of this conversation. If you are looking for a "sympathy vote" and want to play that game, well top this:

My husband had a tumor removed from his spinal column, 7 hours of neuro surgery, had to remove a vertabrea removed to get into the spinal cord to get the tumor out...it's a wonder his is still alive.

So, there...you happy...now can we get back to the converstation about what to do about Toddlers on the ice during high free-style sessions.

[AW1]

Good Lord, now I've read it all :roll: Righty-oh then, off to go back to my deluded world where her coach recommended she attend those freestyle sessions but of course, that'd just be the psychoses speaking wouldn't it :bow:

I'm off - have had enough of this thread and people's inability to respect other people and their opinions.......

[BatikatII]

Oh dear oh dear - everyone is taking offence. Every rink is different in what ice time it has available and every toddler, child, teen and adult is different so there is no 'one size fits all' solution.

At our rink I have seen very young and unaware kids out on a session that I would feel is inappropriate for them. Many parents, (not any on this board), are unaware, as newcomers who may not skate themselves, of the dangers to their own children and other skaters. I would see no problem in pointing this out to them (where the child is obviously unaware and therefore constituting a danger to itself and others).

We are lucky perhaps that our rink has areas coned off for lessons, during public sessions, so that beginners (of any age) can be taught where they are not at risk, nor pose any risk. For this reason I find it hard to understand those parents who put their kids out on patch (freestyle) ice (at our rink) before they are at the stage of learning programs and therefore need to be on the whole ice to run them.

We used also to have a Sunday morning 'family session' where no hockey skates were allowed which was very popular and cut out the rowdy teen hockey skater element which in my experience are the most dangerous of skaters. Sadly this was cut last season.

My children learnt almost entirely on public session (sometimes behind the cones and sometimes not), until they had passed the first national level test (beyond LTS) as I personally felt they didnt' seem good enough to go on the patch ice (Freestyle equivalent). They certainly weren't unaware though, since they were regularly contending with skating their programs etc on public sessions.

There are plenty of clueless older kids on patch ice but at least they are big enough to not get as hurt as a toddler would, if they are accidently run down.

My kids skated pairs for a while and had no choice (due to coach availability)but to practice in a popular patch session but they were always very careful - they had one accident during a lift when they ran over a skater in their blind spot during a lift (their music was playing and they were in lesson). Luckily no real damage was done but if it had been a toddler it could have been much worse.

At the other end of the scale are the high level 'divas' (of both sexes) who believe only they should be on the ice and seem to both hog the music and deliberately land close to people and skim past them at speed. That is also inexcusable in my book as we all need to share the ice and as others have mentioned, give respect to all. Too many higher level skaters seem to forget that they were beginners once too.

Happy skating to all!

[NickiT]

At the other end of the scale are the high level 'divas' (of both sexes) who believe only they should be on the ice and seem to both hog the music and deliberately land close to people and skim past them at speed. That is also inexcusable in my book as we all need to share the ice and as others have mentioned, give respect to all. Too many higher level skaters seem to forget that they were beginners once too!

LOL!!! Now who could you be referring to here???!!!!:P

Nicki

[lovepairs]

Batik,

Thank you for your voice of reason. At this point, this thread seems to be going around in circles, so to speak, and, yes, people are becoming upset. So, what I'm going to do is create a POLL, so that everyone can weigh in on this in a more objective way.

Can anyone out there (Mrs. Redboots?) instruct me about how to go about creating a Poll?

Many thanks,
Lovepairs

BTW: With all due respect to all of our coaches, in all instances coaches don't necessarily know what is best for the little ones, since there is always the matter of $$$, time and convenience that makes the entire situation less objective to them. Some coaches are very young and don't feel that they can say, or do, anything other than what the parents request.

[Mrs Redboots]

So, there...you happy...now can we get back to the converstation about what to do about Toddlers on the ice during high free-style sessions.Could I just point out that you have no way of knowing how good the skaters at AW1's child's rink are? She has just said that she lives in an area where figure skating is not that common - the chances are that the sessions her daughter's lessons are on are not full of pairs teams doing thrown triple axels, senior men doing quads or senior dance teams struggling with the Golden Waltz. Chances are that the child is probably among her peers, skating with other children who are round about her age group and skating level, as well as slightly older and better skaters, but I imagine the number of skaters working on even double-jumps are strictly limited.

Of course, in a land where coaches don't have to train for three years before they're even allowed to teach learn-to-skate classes under supervision, anything can happen, and most probably will! I have to admit, I think the British and Canadian coach training systems are better here (even though I have had to sit and listen to a great many coaches complaining about the new coach development system which means they have to attend so many seminars during the year, "and we don't learn anything!").

Lovepairs, you can't create a poll on an existing thread, but if you start a new one, you will see that at the bottom there is an option to post a poll. If you check that box, you get taken to a page where you can create such a poll.

[lovepairs]

Hi Redboots,

As you can see, I tried to launch the Poll, but the buttons didn't come up. Is there a way to delete this and try it again?

Thanks for your help,

Lovepairs

[lovepairs]

Never mind Redboots...I see how it works now....one vote per person. In other words, once you vote you don't see the buttons any longer.

Thanks

[ouijaouija]

well this summer, it is so busy, its a joke. There were about 20 people max last week, today at he same time, over 100 people!

There is no space to learn, it sucks, because the morning ones are actuallyt he least busy, but they are always crowded with school trips and stuff now.

I'm going again tomorrow morning, right on the dot on opening time to savour as much quiet time as possible

[NickiT]

well this summer, it is so busy, its a joke. There were about 20 people max last week, today at he same time, over 100 people!

There is no space to learn, it sucks, because the morning ones are actuallyt he least busy, but they are always crowded with school trips and stuff now.

I'm going again tomorrow morning, right on the dot on opening time to savour as much quiet time as possible

Unfortunately it's the same throughout the UK (and no doubt elsewhere in the world). Our timetable switches to holiday times from next week on, but even the past couple of weeks there have been large numbers on the public sessions due to end of term trips etc. Luckily I tend to skate only on patch, only doing Friday session, but I and most of my fellow skaters have to resign ourselves to not getting much practice in during the summer as our patch ice is cut to accommodate hockey camps and so on. It's almost impossible to get down to any serious practice when the rink is busy so better to cut your losses now or just accept the way it is.

Nicki

[ouijaouija]

hi, i watched some patch sessions but they were reserved only for classes.

I still love ice skating though, I'm not gonna let the crowd put me off!

[xofivebyfive]

The same thing can also be said for specifically beginner(PreAlpha-Freestyle2) freestyle sessions, where a high level skater decides to take up all of the ice for themselves, expecting us lower level skaters to move out of their way. I mean, I could certainly hold my own on a regular low or open session, but I chose this session because I knew I would not have to constantly be afraid of getting in the way of a skater who is more advanced than me. Beginners tend to stay in one spot, so it's easier to manuever around them. So today, there was this older girl doing doubles and Moves all over the ice, and I was constantly having to get out of her way. "EXCUSE ME" is what I heard. Well excuse me but this is a BEGINNER session... Up to Freestyle 2 there are only half jumps.. she was definitely not a beginner. There was another little girl doing doubles but she wasn't as annoying as she basically stayed in the same section of the rink.

And there were PLENTY of freestyle times today. At least 6 others in the morning specifically for intermediate/high skaters.

[beachbabe]

I guess it just comes down to availability of ice at your rink. We don't actually have ice for a bridge program, so younger figure skaters have to go on freestyles. Thats obviously their only option- but it annoys me when they are on high freestyles when the session right before is a low freestyle!

The real problem is getting rinks to at least specify a standard for each session. Since what may be a high freestyle at one rink may be more like a low freestyle at another. The idea is to keep skaters with others at approximately their level and unfortunately I don't see that happening soon at any rink that lacks figure skaters in general.

Rinks are businesses and don't really care for anyone's safety so they will do whatever brings in more dollars.

Although i don't see why kids can't practice on public sessions- we have some daytime sessions that are practically empty and even in more crowded sessions if you ask a coach they can usually cone off an area for figure skaters to practice in. If all the kids at my rink who practice on publics suddenly went on freestyles- we'd never have enough room for anybody.

[Skate@Delaware]

At the two rinks I skate at, you can practice during public sessions, PROVIDED you keep in mind the crowds (if it's super-crowded then no big jumps or camels).

My home rink (recreationally-based) only has one "freestyle" session during the week. It is an open session and even allows hockey skaters (no sticks/pucks).

My summer rink has been great for practicing and I've never had a problem working on moves/jumps/spins during public session. The low-level freestyle is at an inconvenient time for me (drive time plus traffic). Plus, the public session is almost 2 hours long AND half the price.

[lovepairs]

So today, there was this older girl doing doubles and Moves all over the ice, and I was constantly having to get out of her way. "EXCUSE ME" is what I heard. Well excuse me but this is a BEGINNER session...

Well, just as a toddler shouldn't be allowed to skate on a High-Level Freestyle session, an advanced skater should be asked to leave a Low-Level (Beginner's) Freestyle Session, too.

XO5X5,

Next time that happens, go to management and ask them to ask the high level skater to get off the ice.

[xofivebyfive]

Well, just as a toddler shouldn't be allowed to skate on a High-Level Freestyle session, an advanced skater should be asked to leave a Low-Level (Beginner's) Freestyle Session, too.

XO5X5,

Next time that happens, go to management and ask them to ask the high level skater to get off the ice.
I plan on doing that if it happens again today, since I'll be going to the same session.

[Careygram]

I think it all boils down to rink directorship and ice availability. Clear rules need to be established and followed. We have the little ones on our ice too but luckily *most* of the coaches are very good about helping them. We do have a couple of coaches who act like the kids belond there and you better put that double whatever somewhere else. That's where the director needs to step in.

That being said, I've seen some very dangerous skaters, kids and adults alike. We have an adult who is again at our rink who really is nuts. She hates skaters who are better than her and she's knocked over more people on purpose than I can name. Hello, any directors there?

I say talk to the rink director about potential liability in order to at least have them listen. I once put it this way--is 10$ a session worth losing thousands in a lawsuit???

Good luck.:frus:

[lovepairs]

Hi Carygram!

Okay, TODAY'S STORY

Pairsman2 and I go into side-by-side camel spins. We're in the spins, and all of a sudden a little princess wonders inbetween us as we're spinning. I see her in the spin and fall out of it, because this kid inside of a HUMAN MEAT GRINDER! As I'm falling out of the spin I hear her coach saying "Oh, she's okay, she'll be okay in there!" Meanwhile, our coach is totally freaking out screaming "watch out!" Aftrer the whole incident is over Pairsman2 says to me "Did you see that little Princess in there?!" I'm like OH YEA, why do you think I feel out of the spin!

I rest my case.

[twokidsskatemom]

Hi Carygram!

Okay, TODAY'S STORY

Pairsman2 and I go into side-by-side camel spins. We're in the spins, and all of a sudden a little princess wonders inbetween us as we're spinning. I see her in the spin and fall out of it, because this kid inside of a HUMAN MEAT GRINDER! As I'm falling out of the spin I hear her coach saying "Oh, she's okay, she'll be okay in there!" Meanwhile, our coach is totally freaking out screaming "watch out!" Aftrer the whole incident is over Pairsman2 says to me "Did you see that little Princess in there?!" I'm like OH YEA, why do you think I feel out of the spin!

I rest my case.
It seems like you just wants us to agree. Ok small kids shouldnt be on YOUR ice.we get it. You do pairs. We get it.
We have no pairs here, in fact I bet MOST rinks dont.
Im tired of you calling them princesses. Most kids are respectful and play by the rules if they know WHAT the rules are.
Im so glad the adults, the teens and the small ones here are work together and get along !!!:giveup:

[lovepairs]

Twokids,

No reason to become so defensive. It was just an experience we had yesterday, and a good example of how dangerous it can be. Besides the "little Princess" term is endearing and not disparaging. Sorry, you misinterpreted that. In fact, many of these "little princesses" wear little t-shirts that have "Ice Princess" in sparkly letters on it. Actually, they look very cute. However, being cute shouldn't cloud the issue that it is very dangerous.

Again, it was just an example of how dangerous it is, and how some coaches take it very seriously and others coaches don't.

Oh, by the way, Pairsman2 found a piece generated by the USFSA that includes the "Bridge Program" that we've been talking about. I'm going to try to scan it and include it in a post.

Again, no need to become so defensive...this is just a conversation we are all having about safety for kids on the ice.

[lovepairs]

/Users/andreacooper/Desktop/Bridge Program.jpg

Sorry, this doesn't work...is there anyway to post a JPG on this site? Please let me know, if you know. Thanks

[pairman2]

Dear 2 kids sk8 mom

Your post seems to indicate that you view the situation as a 'pairs issue' as if the small child would never walk into a single skater doing a camel spin, or a back spiral, or dancers or whatever.

You also seemed to suggest that we had a gripe with the kid. If you look, even superficially, at the contents of this whole thread, it's pretty plain that our concern ...and many skaters concerns expressed on this thread, are directed at A) The skating parents that would allow an unaware kid into harms way and B) Coaches that should also be aware of the danger but as per the very graphic 'for example' written out by lovepairs yesterday, doesn't have a clue either! (That coach should have been right out beside her, picking her up by the scruff of her frilly dress!)

Just out of curiosity, is there any limitation of youngest age at which you would feel your child should not be on an open or high freestyle (as opposed to low freestyle.) I'm not sure what your childs age is but lets assume 6 yrs old. Would you put your 5 yr old out there? 4 Yr old?.....Surely you have to understand the principle of what we're saying. Where is your limitation and why at that point?????

[Mrs Redboots]

I think, actually, that the misunderstanding and bad breath is happening because you're talking about two different things! I'm sure that Tennisany1 and AW1s skaters go to sessions that are suitable for their age group and ability level, whether or not these are called "Freestyle" sessions. Besides which, neither of them, from what we are told, is in Learn-to-skate classes, but is having individual instruction in skills that are quite some way beyond that.

The difficulty can arise when very small children go to sessions that are not suitable for them, and this, I think, is what our pairs couple are worried about.

[flo]

I have skated on numerous sessions, (in fact our recent meet up in Del.) where there was everything on the ice from tots to olympians, pairs and dance. It was fine. Everyone respected eachother and looked out for eachother. I've also skated pairs on these sessions and when I've encountered a problem with a little one, I resolved it without a tantrum. For one season we had our private pairs lessons in the middle of learn to skate group lessons. We never had a problem. I would be in an overhead lift and a group of LTS kids would be skating below and around us like a school of fish. Their coach looked out for us, we and ours looked out for them and it worked.

The little ones learned consideration and eventually as their skill progression allowed, returned it, and learned how to skate in a group.

I find that the worst offenders are not the tots or LTS kids or the high levels, but those skaters who have some amount of skill and are deluded in thinking it's quite a bit more that they have, and that they are "entitled" to the ice. They're often the loudest complainers as well.

[pairman2]

If someone feels confortable doing overhead lifts through a group of LTS (school of fish), we'll best of luck to you..........!

[flo]

Thanks - we were fine. It was just a matter of looking out for eachother. I was in the air, they swam in and swam out. We developed great lateral lines (what fish utilize to not bang into eachother).

[lovepairs]

The difficulty can arise when very small children go to sessions that are not suitable for them, and this, I think, is what our pairs couple are worried about.

Thank you Redboots...from the very first post I thought I made it clear that I was concerned about Toddlers on High Freestyle Sessions. Somehow the conversation deteriorated into splitting hairs over how crowded is crowded and what constitutes a Toddler.

It's real simple: if your little one (let's say 5 and under now for all those who are going crazy over 6 year olds being "accomplished figure skaters with toe jumps, bunny hops and waltz jumps") is on a crowded high level freestyle session with or without dancers, or pair teams, there is a good chance of the baby getting hurt, or someone else getting hurt for that matter. I think we can all agree that this is not the best environment to place a very small child.

[Careygram]

Um, is the rink director(s) CRAZY to allow LTS up to Olympians and pairs doing overhead lifts on the same ice? I don't care how skilled a pair team is, accidents can and do happen. I'd be afraid someone would drop on one of the fish school kids. And then who would be liable? I don't see any of this talk as "tantrum" or "entitlement", simply frustration that unskilled skaters who don't look where they're going are on the ice with skaters who have PAID to be there as well and are trying to get something done.

My five year old will NOT be on any kind of freestyle until he can skate with his eyes looking everywhere.

[flo]

Carey, It may not work for all, but as I said it did indeed work for us and these kids quite well for the entire summer. I was also on a session in PA where Sr. pairs were working and there was a class of tots working on skills. They also did not have a problem. They also came to be familiar with and looked out for eachother. So it can and does work at some rinks. I've noticed that where it does work there'a an attitude of respect and cooperation not found at others.

Actually there was indeed reference to a feeling of "entitled", not that there has to be for someone to state it.

[lovepairs]

This is really not an "ego-related" issue. Who gets along with whom, or who has which skills, is totally besides the point. This has to do with the danger of sending 3, 4, 5 and even 6 year olds out into a heavily trafficed high freestyle session. I bet if Social Services came an saw these toddlers moving about in traffic like this that they would certainly have something to say about it.

I'm really surprised to hear that Adult Pair Teams, who always emphasize safety first and formost within their own teams, are doing over-head lifts through a group of LTS kids? Pairsman2 and I would never chance that in a million years. Even for low lifts we scope out the session first and if there are babies on the ice we look at each other and say "no lifts today." Anything short of that would be totally irresponsible of us not only as skaters, but as adults. I really don't have anything else to say about this.

[flo]

As I stated we were quite safe, and would not have done this if we were not. Our coaches, parents, and the kids had no problem with the set up. Before anyone makes their judgement and announces their "surprise" perhaps learn why it did work. And possibly, just possibly learn from someone's good experience. After all isn't that one of the reasons for this thread, or is it just to whine?
As I also stated vey clearly, this situation would not work for everyone, and I'm sure would not work for you Lovepairs.

[lovepairs]

Here's the bottom line:

I wouldn't even send Mr. Meyerhoff out on a high free style session let alone a toddler!

And, that's all I have to say about that.

[LoopLoop]

It's not just little kids who do stupid things during FS sessions. At 2005 AN, Nova and I were on a pairs-only practice session with three other pairs. That's right, there were only eight of us on the ice. While our music was playing and we were going through our program (just as we were stepping into sbs spins IIRC) one member of a masters pair team skated right in between us. No apology was forthcoming, either.

[NoVa Sk8r]

It's not just little kids who do stupid things during FS sessions. At 2005 AN, Nova and I were on a pairs-only practice session with three other pairs. That's right, there were only eight of us on the ice. While our music was playing and we were going through our program (just as we were stepping into sbs spins IIRC) one member of a masters pair team skated right in between us. No apology was forthcoming, either.Yes, that was incredibly rude, dangerous, and uncalled for. The only consolation was that her pairs event was canceled! :twisted:

[twokidsskatemom]

Lovepairs.
Your usage of the word princess comes across as though all young skaters view themselves as such. That is far from the truth.
You also made a comment about how 6 year olds view themselves as SKATERS when they can do waltz jumps and bunny hops. You come across as rude in that statement as well. Maybe you arent aware but there are plenty of 6 year olds with axles and working on doubles.
Unless you buy the ice yourself, there is no reason why skaters of all levels cant get along and work well.There is no reason why you cant tell a 5 year old, here are the rules. If you dont follow them we get off the ice. My 5 year old son can tell you where the lutz corner is, and how to see a set up of a jump.He know when doing skaters are doing programs to watch where he is at, and he know just as well when an adult is on the ice with a helmet holding onto the board to watch as he is the better skater then.He know when ... is on the ice to watch as he has huge jumps.He know when the dancers are on to watch the patterns.
My skaters arent special or genius. I dont think they are better than the adult skaters. They are all just skaters of different levels. We have 4 rinks, college hockey, hs hockey, mens hockey, pee wee hockey take up most of the ice.WE have to stick together.
We as a community have learned we all can skate on the ice we have. We do what we do with love, love of the ice for the skaters, love of the sport for the adults, love of the child for the parents. Its about RESPECT.If you start out that way, its the only way they will know.
Anyway it does work if you take the time to teach. Its not about age, its about skills and respect for others.Put a 10 year old just starting out on the ice and they have no clue either.But the young ones start out knowing how to act if they are TAUGHT. By coaches.By parents. By the older skaters as role models.

Its not perfect. Accidents happen. Sure it would be nice to have ice for all levels.B ut we dont, and I dont think we will at what it cost an hour to buy the ice. But we have had skaters go to regionals, Jr nats, nationals, go to lake placid for dance, and they grew up in a sharing enviroment.
We only have one pairs team in the whole state, and they arent in our city. But I know they share the ice too :)
I havent seen a skater here, adult or child, been asked to leave the ice. Does that happen alot where you are ?

[ouijaouija]

a good post i think!

[Careygram]

I think LovePairs is being misunderstood. we're talking about 5 year olds, maybe younger, who DON'T look out and DON't know how to skate whose parents and coaches put them out there in a dangerous situation. No, not every situation is dangerous but in some rinks there isn't the etiquette and education required to "make it work".

And no, Love Pairs and PairsMan 2 can't make it work as Flo correctly states because they are WICKED fast and have a huge back press and over head platter on the ice. When a pair is as fast as they are and covers the ice like they do, then they can't lose their focus to avoid a small, and adorable child and skater therefore they bail. And yeah, after six times attempting and having to abort a lift/skill, that can be frustrating.

I do pairs and I've seen adult pairs and no one is so good that they should be doing over head lifts near little ones who don't have control. If they accidentally fall in the path of people as fast as Love Pairs and Pairsman2 they could be seriuosly hurt.

I think they're being misunderstood and not allowed to vent a little frustration.

[Mercedeslove]

Lovepairs.
Your usage of the word princess comes across as though all young skaters view themselves as such. That is far from the truth.
You also made a comment about how 6 year olds view themselves as SKATERS when they can do waltz jumps and bunny hops. You come across as rude in that statement as well. Maybe you arent aware but there are plenty of 6 year olds with axles and working on doubles.
Unless you buy the ice yourself, there is no reason why skaters of all levels cant get along and work well.There is no reason why you cant tell a 5 year old, here are the rules. If you dont follow them we get off the ice. My 5 year old son can tell you where the lutz corner is, and how to see a set up of a jump.He know when doing skaters are doing programs to watch where he is at, and he know just as well when an adult is on the ice with a helmet holding onto the board to watch as he is the better skater then.He know when ... is on the ice to watch as he has huge jumps.He know when the dancers are on to watch the patterns.
My skaters arent special or genius. I dont think they are better than the adult skaters. They are all just skaters of different levels. We have 4 rinks, college hockey, hs hockey, mens hockey, pee wee hockey take up most of the ice.WE have to stick together.
We as a community have learned we all can skate on the ice we have. We do what we do with love, love of the ice for the skaters, love of the sport for the adults, love of the child for the parents. Its about RESPECT.If you start out that way, its the only way they will know.
Anyway it does work if you take the time to teach. Its not about age, its about skills and respect for others.Put a 10 year old just starting out on the ice and they have no clue either.But the young ones start out knowing how to act if they are TAUGHT. By coaches.By parents. By the older skaters as role models.

Its not perfect. Accidents happen. Sure it would be nice to have ice for all levels.B ut we dont, and I dont think we will at what it cost an hour to buy the ice. But we have had skaters go to regionals, Jr nats, nationals, go to lake placid for dance, and they grew up in a sharing enviroment.
We only have one pairs team in the whole state, and they arent in our city. But I know they share the ice too :)
I havent seen a skater here, adult or child, been asked to leave the ice. Does that happen alot where you are ?


This was a bit rude in itself. You make it sound like that your children should have everything and anything they want. That no one can say otherwise. If that is the case then they are in for a shock as they get older. Kid cannot and should not have everything they want. They need to be taught from an early age that they are to respect those that are older then them, and that not everyone is going to think they are 'God's gift to the world' or a 'little princess' or whatever else their parents feed in to them.

They need to know that as kids they still have to learn respect and until they can learn that, they shouldn't be treated like 'older skaters'.

So what if they can do a jump, or a spin. Do they respect those around them. Like the adult skaters who are paying for skating on their own, not having mommy and daddy feed them with a spoon? If they don't have that, then they shouldn't be on the ice plain and simple.

Too many kids these days think they are everything and the world should revolve around them, all because their parents treat them like that and don't teach them respect.

Like I said not everyone thinks your kids are cute or adorble. Not everyone thinks they should have the same rights as adults.

[DallasSkater]

I think it has already been established that the problem appears to be rink specific. I also think 8 pages is quite a bit of room for venting! giggle.

Maybe asking the specific rink for solutions would help folks be less frustrated. It would appear that attitudes on both sides are ingrained at this point. Venting without viable solutions will only cause a power struggle. I think that has been demonstrated. whew!

As non productive as this thread has been....I have shame that I keep peeking in! lol.

[twokidsskatemom]

This was a bit rude in itself. You make it sound like that your children should have everything and anything they want. That no one can say otherwise. If that is the case then they are in for a shock as they get older. Kid cannot and should not have everything they want. They need to be taught from an early age that they are to respect those that are older then them, and that not everyone is going to think they are 'God's gift to the world' or a 'little princess' or whatever else their parents feed in to them.

They need to know that as kids they still have to learn respect and until they can learn that, they shouldn't be treated like 'older skaters'.

So what if they can do a jump, or a spin. Do they respect those around them. Like the adult skaters who are paying for skating on their own, not having mommy and daddy feed them with a spoon? If they don't have that, then they shouldn't be on the ice plain and simple.

Too many kids these days think they are everything and the world should revolve around them, all because their parents treat them like that and don't teach them respect.

Like I said not everyone thinks your kids are cute or adorble. Not everyone thinks they should have the same rights as adults.

They do when they pay the same amount as you do. Do you think you have more right than the skaters that OUTSKATE YOU ?
YES they do respect others on the ice OF ANY AGE. Didnt you read what I said?Do you not get it. Its not about you !! I think you JUST started.:giveup:
What are you talking about, having mom and dad feed them with a spoon?
I have no clue what most of your post means? I said my skaters have been TAUGHT how to be on the ice. They skate with SENIOR level skaters with np.
Not one place did I say they get what they want. WHERE did you read that? Please let me know...Cause they work very hard EVERY day to share that ice with all the skaters in our club.

I did say they skate FINE with the adults, the diva teens, the novice ice dance team. and WE ALL GET ALONG !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:giveup: :giveup:

[FrankR]

http://gymgossip.com/Smileys/Kustom/deadhorse.gif

[jazzpants]

http://gymgossip.com/Smileys/Kustom/deadhorse.gif:twisted: :lol: :twisted: :lol: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/images/smilies/respec1.gif :bow: http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/images/smilies/respec1.gif :bow:

[lovepairs]

Tried to post the "Bridge Program," again...no luck.

[lovepairs]

Franklin,

You are hilarious! Always there with Mr. Ed at the right time! LOL!!!

Careygram,

Thank you for the compliment. I completely agree with you, and you are a total voice of reason! I know you are a fantastic pair skater and fantasic mom, and understand what I've been trying to say. It's not so much that we are totally frustrated and need to vent, as I sincerely believe that a crowded high-level freestyle session is NOT a safe environment for a toddler. Pairsman2 and I went so far as to purchase our own ice last year just so that we could practice without putting very little ones in danger. It's not about us, but about the kids.

It was funny, but I was reading another thread where AW1 was asking someone about a dress for her five year old. She described her daughter as being very tiny, and gave the kid's measurements. The little girl has an 18" waist. Pairsman2's bicep is 15" unflexed. It's really about size, awareness, and motor control, and I'm afraid that when there is too much disparity on the ice during one session that it creates a very chaotic and dangerous environment.

However, everyone, especially some of the parents of the toddlers seem to be really okay with this. Hey, I'm not a parent, so what do I know. Okay, instead of finding a solution, let's just all keep our fingers' crossed and hope that no one, especially the little ones, has a serious accident.

[beachbabe]

Lovepairs.
Your usage of the word princess comes across as though all young skaters view themselves as such. That is far from the truth.
You also made a comment about how 6 year olds view themselves as SKATERS when they can do waltz jumps and bunny hops. You come across as rude in that statement as well. Maybe you arent aware but there are plenty of 6 year olds with axles and working on doubles.
Unless you buy the ice yourself, there is no reason why skaters of all levels cant get along and work well.There is no reason why you cant tell a 5 year old, here are the rules. If you dont follow them we get off the ice. My 5 year old son can tell you where the lutz corner is, and how to see a set up of a jump.He know when doing skaters are doing programs to watch where he is at, and he know just as well when an adult is on the ice with a helmet holding onto the board to watch as he is the better skater then.He know when ... is on the ice to watch as he has huge jumps.He know when the dancers are on to watch the patterns.
My skaters arent special or genius. I dont think they are better than the adult skaters. They are all just skaters of different levels. We have 4 rinks, college hockey, hs hockey, mens hockey, pee wee hockey take up most of the ice.WE have to stick together.
We as a community have learned we all can skate on the ice we have. We do what we do with love, love of the ice for the skaters, love of the sport for the adults, love of the child for the parents. Its about RESPECT.If you start out that way, its the only way they will know.
Anyway it does work if you take the time to teach. Its not about age, its about skills and respect for others.Put a 10 year old just starting out on the ice and they have no clue either.But the young ones start out knowing how to act if they are TAUGHT. By coaches.By parents. By the older skaters as role models.

Its not perfect. Accidents happen. Sure it would be nice to have ice for all levels.B ut we dont, and I dont think we will at what it cost an hour to buy the ice. But we have had skaters go to regionals, Jr nats, nationals, go to lake placid for dance, and they grew up in a sharing enviroment.
We only have one pairs team in the whole state, and they arent in our city. But I know they share the ice too :)
I havent seen a skater here, adult or child, been asked to leave the ice. Does that happen alot where you are ?

I can only wish that our young skaters were like your son. he is the perfect example of a skater that is definately not a hazard on the ice.

however, many children are not like this.

In my history of skating i've had 2 collisions. 1 was with a beginner (i.e. low LTS) 8 year old who tripped, fell and slid right behind me when i'd already done the 3 turn in to a flip. thankfully we both got away with minor bruises.

the second collission was with a young child of about 6 that decided to go into a camel spin right in the path of my axel set-up not giving me a reasonable amount of time to move out of the way and the girl ended up with a cut on her arm (note: for at least 20 minutes i had been repeating the axel over and over in the same exact spot and any skater who is aware of whats going on would have been aware of that- i don't remember it being a very crowded sessions either so there was plenty of space for a camel spin elsewhere). If it was an issue with someone doing their program and needing that spot- i would have gladly moved and given the person room, but no-this was clearly a diva attitude.

now, i know i don't speak for all little kids here but correct me if I'm wrong that i was not at fault in either of those situations- yet i ended up having to take a couple of nasty falls due to a kid who can't watch where they were going.

if all the toddlers were like your son...this topic would never have come up

[Isk8NYC]

Due to popular demand, I'm closing this thread down. Everyone's had a chance to state their opinions multiple times and it's time to take a breather from the tension.