AN Actual Scores

[MusicSkateFan]

I have learned that the Chief Ref decided not to have the numerical scores posted at AN. Does anyone know if the judges actually gave numerical scores then just posted ordinals or did the judges just watch...take notes..and make an ordinal placement. I would be interested in getting my numerical scores...can we ask the judges directly?

No big deal if I cant get the scores...just thought it would help in preparation for next tests!:?:

[FrankR]

Hi MSF,

As far as I know, the judges do give two marks (technical and presentation) and then base their ordinals off of those marks.

I also was interested in seeing my marks for this year. However, I don't really know if we can get a look at them now. I would imagine the accountant and event ref for each event saw the marks. I don't know if anyone kept them after the results were finalized.

[flo]

Hi,
Actually the posting of the actual scores at nats is not the norm. Anyone remember when they were posted?

[NoVa Sk8r]

I was surprised to not see the actual marks, such as was done last year (and looking at my marks in last year's Silver I event, I could see from the scores that it was my presentation that won me the event). But I guess that's up to the ref to decide. It was my understanding that USFS competitions MUST use a marking system and that judges cannot simply watch and rank the skaters by strict ordinals.

[FrankR]

Hi,
Actually the posting of the actual scores at nats is not the norm. Anyone remember when they were posted?

This is the third straight nationals I've participated in and this is the first time that the marks were not posted. In Lake Placid in 2004 and in Kansas last year the marks were posted on the USFS site and hard copies were posted at the event itself. I looked at the 2003 results from Ann Arbor and those scores have also been posted on the USFS site.

Last year I had a couple of judges tell me that I should work more on my presentation. I was hoping to see how my program was received this year and whether or not the judges felt my technical skating was better than my presentation.

[rlichtefeld]

This is the third straight nationals I've participated in and this is the first time that the marks were not posted. In Lake Placid in 2004 and in Kansas last year the marks were posted on the USFS site and hard copies were posted at the event itself. I looked at the 2003 results from Ann Arbor and those scores have also been posted on the USFS site.

Last year I had a couple of judges tell me that I should work more on my presentation. I was hoping to see how my program was received this year and whether or not the judges felt my technical skating was better than my presentation.

At this point, the only way to get them would be for USFS to contact the Accountant have him/her produce another file(s). The software will produce HTM files with either the ordinals or the scores. It is up to the accountant and referee to choose which to post.

And, yes, the judges do have to record both marks. And, both marks are entered into the software. That is how ties are broken and the TOMs are calculated when necessary.

Rob

[daisies]

I have learned that the Chief Ref decided not to have the numerical scores posted at AN. Does anyone know if the judges actually gave numerical scores then just posted ordinals or did the judges just watch...take notes..and make an ordinal placement. I would be interested in getting my numerical scores...can we ask the judges directly?

No big deal if I cant get the scores...just thought it would help in preparation for next tests!:?:

Judging under 6.0 is always done by giving two marks, and then ordinals are derived from those marks. It would be impossible to simply take notes and then place skaters after the fact.

I am 99% positive you will not be able to see your marks if the chief ref decided they wouldn't be posted. Judges are informed ahead of time if marks will be posted, and if the chief ref said they would not be, that means the judges don't expect them to be public. Also, when marks are going to be posted, the ref of each event must take a median mark after the first skater, and I did not see them doing that throughout the competition.

Remember too that marks really mean nothing. They are placeholders, and that is all.

[vesperholly]

Is ANs using COP next year? I remember hearing this but I'm not sure where.

[coskater64]

I recall getting my Tech/Art marks last year for both my open event and champ. They are on last years site for the 2005 AN on the USFSA site.

NJS for Gold and Master's next year is the proposal for GC in May.

[NoVa Sk8r]

NJS for Gold and Master's next year is the proposal for GC in May.And if this passes (likely), then 2toe, 2sal, and 2loop will be the only doubles allowed in gold level. (This matches what ISU is doing in this year's O'dorf competition.)

[sk8er1964]

And if this passes (likely), then 2toe, 2sal, and 2loop will be the only doubles allowed in gold level. (This matches what ISU is doing in this year's O'dorf competition.)

Now that would not be cool. I'm working on the 2flip now!

[flo]

I knew they were posted at a couple of the AN's and it was strange to see them, but I didn't remember where.
Thanks

[FrankR]

Also, when marks are going to be posted, the ref of each event must take a median mark after the first skater, and I did not see them doing that throughout the competition.

Oh yeah!! I forgot about the median mark. I didn't realize at the time that they weren't making the ubiquitous "median mark" speech during the events this time around. :lol:


Remember too that marks really mean nothing. They are placeholders, and that is all.

That's very true. However, I do like to see how the first mark compares to the second mark for my skate. I think it gives me some indication as to whether or not the judges liked the program itself, regardless of the technical elements. I've been trying to pay attention to that more this year and it would have been nice to have some feedback on that, however small. Although it would have been nice to have, I'll live if I don't get the marks. :)

Thanks daisies.

Take care,

Frank

[daisies]

That's very true. However, I do like to see how the first mark compares to the second mark for my skate. I think it gives me some indication as to whether or not the judges liked the program itself, regardless of the technical elements.

Thanks daisies.
Hey, no prob, Frank! Use caution when interpreting your marks, however. Sometimes as an event goes on, judges can "box themselves in" -- meaning their scores are too tight for them to fit someone in between. When that happens, we need to be creative with our marks, and a lot of times one mark will be way higher or lower than the other -- regardless of whether we thought the program components were better or worse than the elements. It's the two marks added together -- not the two marks separately -- that matter in the long run to us judges and in the results overall. It doesn't even matter if you skate early in the event -- getting boxed in can happen at any time! And even if you're the first skater and you give a mark, when the ref takes the median mark the judge has the option of changing his/her mark to that median mark. So the marks you see may not even be what the judge originally intended to give you. Again, it's only placeholder! :)

[sk8er1964]

Oh yeah!! I forgot about the median mark. I didn't realize at the time that they weren't making the ubiquitous "median mark" speech during the events this time around. :lol:

Seriously? So they weren't judging this AN using standard procedures for a national event?

[daisies]

Seriously? So they weren't judging this AN using standard procedures for a national event?
It's a standard procedure for when marks are posted, not necessarily a standard procedure for a national event. Again, it's the chief ref's call.

[SDFanatic]

Judging under 6.0 is always done by giving two marks, and then ordinals are derived from those marks. It would be impossible to simply take notes and then place skaters after the fact.

I am 99% positive you will not be able to see your marks if the chief ref decided they wouldn't be posted. Judges are informed ahead of time if marks will be posted, and if the chief ref said they would not be, that means the judges don't expect them to be public. Also, when marks are going to be posted, the ref of each event must take a median mark after the first skater, and I did not see them doing that throughout the competition.

Remember too that marks really mean nothing. They are placeholders, and that is all.

Don't forget it takes time to make a median mark, most likely this is why it was not used, just a thought.

Steven

[sk8er1964]

Hmmm -- I've skated in four championship events (three sectionals and one nationals) and they always established a median mark.

[daisies]

Hmmm -- I've skated in four championship events (three sectionals and one nationals) and they always established a median mark.

Me too. But what I have noticed in a lot of competitions I have judged lately is that they are forgoing the median mark and the posting of scores. Might have to do with the phase-in of IJS, I don't know. But I sit there with my clipboard and wait for the ref to take my mark, and he/she never gets up!

The point is, just because they've done it in the past it does not mean it's a requirement. With them being short on judges this year, they probably just didn't want to use up the time. Just speculation.

[techskater]

New changes to well balanced program requirements are up for vote at GC as a separate issue from IJS. 2 loop is listed as the new highest jump for Gold. Doesn't mean you can't work on the 2 flip, just can't compete with it. FWIW, I've landed a handful of them already (<20) and am planning the program changes between years based on the new requirements since those look like they're going to pass. What will inside axel do if he decides to stay in Gold next year? ;)

[InsideAxel]

What will inside axel do if he decides to stay in Gold next year? ;)

Comply with the rules I suppose? Although I can't figure the rationale behind a rule change weakening the content for a Championship level event.

Kelton

[techskater]

It's intended to get it in line with O'dorf's requirements since that's the limit there.

[InsideAxel]

It's intended to get it in line with O'dorf's requirements since that's the limit there.

Ah, so we're qualifying for Oberstdorf now, got it.

Kelton

[NoVa Sk8r]

I believe the point had been made (by the ISU Adult Skating Working Group Members, whose rationale has then been adopted by the USFS Adult Skating Committee) that while 2loop is on the novice test, 2flip and 2lutz are on the junior and senior level, respectively. Assumably, if one is working on those jumps, one would by this point in a skating career have also developed the skating skills and spins to compete at the master's level. After all, the 2lutz and 2flip were the top jumps executed in the past 2 years in championship masters. (But yes, occasionally, one will see a 2axel and a triple attempt).

Perhaps, just perhaps (?), this is the adult committee and judges' way of communicating that at the gold level, they would rather see skaters improving their edges, presentation, and spins before adding 2flip, 2lutz, and 2axel.

At any rate, I will never be landing any of these jumps! LOL! :P

[daisies]

Comply with the rules I suppose? Although I can't figure the rationale behind a rule change weakening the content for a Championship level event.

Kelton
The rationale is that IJS is a point-based system, so it would be unfair for the content to vary too widely at that level.

[techskater]

I think you've nailed it, Daisies. Maybe it would be more fair to make it "no more than three different doubles"? Some people have an easier time with the flip and/or lutz than the loop. No matter...

[Mrs Redboots]

2flip, 2lutz, and 2axel.

At any rate, I will never be landing any of these jumps! LOL! :P"Never" is a very long time, NoVa - I wouldn't just rule them totally out, if I were you!

[coskater64]

I agree w/ Daisies and NoVa, the premise behind no 2 flip, 2 lutz and 2 axel is to get skater's to focus on edge quality, present, etc and to stop the disparity in points. Also to point out that skater's who have 2 flip and 2 lutz solid can be competitive at the Master's level. And just to mention this in passing a double toe-double toe is worth more than a 2 flip and you can do that at gold. You also need a double double to pass the Novice FS as well as the 2 loop, the limit makes it more fair but still allows for the accumulation of points via other routes.

While the men have clean double flips and lutzes at gold not a lot of the women do, I think a few years ago I saw some excellent attemps but not 100% clean jumps. The NJS counts any double w/ greater than a 1/4 cheat as a single.

I personally would just like to do a clean program w/ 2 or 3 doubles, all loop and below. That would make my day and scare the living day lights out of my coach.

[Usova Notoku]

I think this rule is crazy!!! This will SIGNIFICANTLY even the playing field for the Championship Gold Men...with some skaters, you take away jumps and what is left?
Figure skating is supposed to be about advancement in terms of jumps , not going backwards!

The line between the Championship Gold Men and Championship Masters Men was already blurred - alot of the lower masters men , would probably have been only the bronze medalist in the gold event... to me, taking away the jumps is not going to really solve anything, because if you look at last year and this year, the people that won these events can jump jump jump because they were child skaters but not on ice... passing all the tests required for masters will take years. what does this rule solve?

I say let them all jump all the doubles!

[techskater]

Skating is supposed to be about more than the jumps. If you take away the jumps, there should be PLENTY left - good edgework, nice flow, solid spins - at the Gold level.

[coskater64]

That's right, it's a skating competition, not a jumping competition. And once again, double doubles come into play w/ the NJS coming (GC?) then a double double will get more points than the pivot doubles. Of course good spins, higher level footwork, more transitions into jumps could also make the field much more interesting.

[Usova Notoku]

so, because the past 2 years the man who won championship masters only had a double lutz combo and this year the man who won championship gold had a double lutz, they should weaken the technical content of the gold level?

The masters event is open to anyone who has passed their intermediate test. This includes people like Larry Holiday who once competed on an elite level. What will happen when more elite skaters like Larry compete in masters at adult nationals? You will then have one elite group doing triple jumps and another group that may have started as children but are able to do a double flip and double lutz that were pushed out of the gold group because they can do these jumps.. What kind of competition will this be and how fair is this?

They should then have 3 championship events...

Championship Gold - up to 2loop

Championship Masters - up to 2axel

Championship Ultra Masters - triple jumps

Something tells me that this wont happen.....

[cecealias]

Not necessarily, there's Masters Novice, Junior and Senior and then Championship Masters.

So....this is just a projection of what could happen

Championship Gold max Double loop

Masters Novice no limit, but probably will see double flip, double lutz

Masters Junior no limit, double flip, double lutz, double axel

Masters Senior no limit, double flip, double lutz, double axel, triples

Championship Masters no limit for triples, double axel

[Usova Notoku]

Masters novice , junior and senior is all good but people want to compete in Championship events... if elite skaters start showing up to the Championship masters events with triples, that leaves the "true" adult skaters who have a 2flip and 2lutz out of being competitive and no chance to ever medal. If these skaters pass their intermediate freeskating test,they are caught somewhere in the middle and there is no going back to Championship gold - ever.

[NoVa Sk8r]

O'dorf has at least considered this "I'm a very big kid now" option.

In the anouncement, it reads:

The organizers welcome the participation of former elite skaters. Appropriate “masters elite” event categories will be added to the competition for such skaters. Masters Elite Free Skating will follow the Masters Free Skating requirements.

But somehow, I don't think we'll be seeing folks like Amber Corwin at Adult Nationals (though I'd love to see her! Amber, don't put down the tiara just yet--come to Adult Nats!!! :) ).

[jazzpants]

O'dorf has at least considered this "I'm a very big kid now" option.

In the anouncement, it reads:

The organizers welcome the participation of former elite skaters. Appropriate “masters elite” event categories will be added to the competition for such skaters. Masters Elite Free Skating will follow the Masters Free Skating requirements.

But somehow, I don't think we'll be seeing folks like Amber Corwin at Adult Nationals (though I'd love to see her! Amber, don't put down the tiara just yet--come to Adult Nats!!! :) ).I would love to know how they're gonna catagorize "Masters Elite" skaters vs "Masters" skaters! (Like for instance, I would think (for example) giving Edward Van Campen's previous experience at Worlds that he would compete at "Masters Elite," yes?)

[doubletoe]

Perhaps, just perhaps (?), this is the adult committee and judges' way of communicating that at the gold level, they would rather see skaters improving their edges, presentation, and spins before adding 2flip, 2lutz, and 2axel.


Whether or not that's the rationale, I think it makes sense. While I can understand the frustration of the few Gold skaters who are landing or about to land double flips, I have to admit I cringe when I see skaters attempting difficult doubles when they don't have the overall skating skills to match.

[cecealias]

Whether or not that's the rationale, I think it makes sense. While I can understand the frustration of the few Gold skaters who are landing or about to land double flips, I have to admit I cringe when I see skaters attempting difficult doubles when they don't have the overall skating skills to match.

What overall skating skills are considered to match double flips and double lutzes?? how do you categorize this?

[coskater64]

The skater's (standard track) that i've seen w/ 2flips and 2lutzes all have double doubles @ least one for the most part and all have lutz 2toe, flip 2loop and the like...these combinations are equal to 2flip and 2lutz in points and show a high level of difficulty and mastery especially if done well.

[Usova Notoku]

O'dorf has at least considered this "I'm a very big kid now" option.

In the anouncement, it reads:

The organizers welcome the participation of former elite skaters. Appropriate “masters elite” event categories will be added to the competition for such skaters. Masters Elite Free Skating will follow the Masters Free Skating requirements.

But somehow, I don't think we'll be seeing folks like Amber Corwin at Adult Nationals (though I'd love to see her! Amber, don't put down the tiara just yet--come to Adult Nats!!! :) ).


Will Nationals eventually have this category making 3 championship events?

Will the USFS wait for elite skaters to show up and the rest of the masters "adult" skaters with only doubles will be screwed until the following year when they eventually make the change?

It doesn't seem like they are thinking too far ahead.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Amber show up in about 5 years to get the national title she has been searching for, so it will be amber with say a triple toe and a triple salchow competing against some of the adult ladies who were pushed out of championship gold.

[sk8er1964]

Will Nationals eventually have this category making 3 championship events?

Will the USFS wait for elite skaters to show up and the rest of the masters "adult" skaters with only doubles will be screwed until the following year when they eventually make the change?

It doesn't seem like they are thinking too far ahead.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Amber show up in about 5 years to get the national title she has been searching for, so it will be amber with say a triple toe and a triple salchow competing against some of the adult ladies who were pushed out of championship gold.

I might be wrong, but didn't one of this year's masters ladies medalists medal at collegietes (sp) and another skated internationally as a junior?

[mskater]

Will Nationals eventually have this category making 3 championship events?

Will the USFS wait for elite skaters to show up and the rest of the masters "adult" skaters with only doubles will be screwed until the following year when they eventually make the change?

It doesn't seem like they are thinking too far ahead.
.

I don't think these changes will make things any more fair or unfair. I've been competing 3 years now in Masters events as an intermediate skater and never been all that competitive. We've needed a better division of levels in the Masters group now for years - in other words, it's always been 'unfair' :]