toe loop technique

[froggy]

i hope someone can clarify this, one coach told me on the RBO pick with left toe , jump and turn landing on RBO ok now another coach told on the RBO pick with toe, let the RBO glide and meet up diagonally with left toe pick so the R foot in slightly crossed in front of the left, then with weight on left toe pick up the right foot while turned 1/4 of turn and jump then landing on RBO.the second coach told me what I was doing originally was a toe waltz, but I wasn't cheating by turning I was really jumping from face forward. :??

what do you think of these two? i was doing the first variation for a while with consistency now I feel like imlearning the toe loop all over again.:roll:

[beachbabe]

Well whatever coach said you are doing a toewalz, must mean you are prerotating too much. The toe loop is not actually a full rotation jump, and that slightly cheated 1/4 of a rotation is how its suppsoed to be. The problem is if you prerotate on the toepick so much that you are facing forward as you jump. It is ok if you are slightly to the side as you go in to the jump.

[doubletoe]

Yes, there are two correct ways of taking off on a toeloop, so neither of those is wrong. Like the other poster said, you just need to make sure you don't turn to face forward before leaving the ice. Do this self-check whenever you do this jump: As you feel your pick go into the ice, are you still facing the direction you came from? Is your left arm still completely in front of you with your right shoulder still back? Okay, now push up off the toe and leave the ice, turning your hips as you leave the ice, and only letting your head turn to the left after your hips have started turning.

[mikawendy]

Also, are you taking off from a true outside edge, or does your foot go to an inside edge? Regardless of whether you are prerotating, if you are taking off from an inside edge (or an inside-ish edge), that's not the correct takeoff edge. Usually that problem would come from picking too far on the outside of the circle described by your takeoff foot. (So for a CCW skater, picking at, say 8 o'clock would be too far to the outside of the circle and you'd be likely to take off the wrong edge.)

[TashaKat]

I 'relearned' the toe loop (cherry flip) when I went onto doubles. I hate the way that they teach the 'baby' way then change it all again ... one of my beefs about skating!

The way I was taught it (finally) was to pick, draw back with the skating foot still on the ice until your feet are together and crossed while jumping up and around. It's difficult to explain on here because you have to take your body back as well as your foot but I was definitely not taught to pre-rotate by half a turn with either my arms, body or legs :lol: (though I did give it a good go ;) ).

[stardust skies]

i hope someone can clarify this, one coach told me on the RBO pick with left toe , jump and turn landing on RBO ok now another coach told on the RBO pick with toe, let the RBO glide and meet up diagonally with left toe pick so the R foot in slightly crossed in front of the left, then with weight on left toe pick up the right foot while turned 1/4 of turn and jump then landing on RBO.the second coach told me what I was doing originally was a toe waltz, but I wasn't cheating by turning I was really jumping from face forward. :??

what do you think of these two? i was doing the first variation for a while with consistency now I feel like imlearning the toe loop all over again.:roll:

Ironically enough, it's the second coach that is teaching you to do a toe waltz- the first coach is telling you the right way to do it. That second description IS a toe waltz, and that first description is a toe loop. Also? Not only does that second coach have bad technique to spread around, they also don't know what they're talking about. Jumping on a pick jump by facing forward IS cheating the jump. The very definition. It can also be called pre-rotating, but that's still a cheat.

[Debbie S]

Ironically enough, it's the second coach that is teaching you to do a toe waltz- the first coach is telling you the right way to do it.Hmmm, the way I read it, it sounds like the second coach is more correct, except for the part about not picking up your skating foot until you turn around. It sounds like what the first coach is saying is you keep your skating foot (RBO) on the ice and jump off of both feet - that's wrong. My current coach, who is fixing my toe waltz that I didn't know I had, gave me the same instructions as coach 2 - bring RBO toward picking foot - but then lift the skating foot off the ice and then turn around and kick the free leg through as you jump. My understanding is the toe loop is pre-rotated, b/c you kick your free leg through as you turn on your toe pick to face forward - just like a waltz jump. I've been told that the waltz, toe, and sal are basically the same jump in the air - in other words, not a full rev, unlike the loop, flip, and lutz, which are.

[doubletoe]

On the toeloop, you do a 1/4 turn on the toe as you take off, so if you pick with your left toe, you will be taking off facing to your left, not doing 1/2 turn on the toe and taking off facing the direction of the jump. If done correctly, it's really a 3/4 turn jump.

[twokidsskatemom]

I 'relearned' the toe loop (cherry flip) when I went onto doubles. I hate the way that they teach the 'baby' way then change it all again ... one of my beefs about skating!

The way I was taught it (finally) was to pick, draw back with the skating foot still on the ice until your feet are together and crossed while jumping up and around. It's difficult to explain on here because you have to take your body back as well as your foot but I was definitely not taught to pre-rotate by half a turn with either my arms, body or legs :lol: (though I did give it a good go ;) ).
My daughters coach taught her the first time that way.Easier than having to relearn it !!

[Casey]

I 'relearned' the toe loop (cherry flip) when I went onto doubles. I hate the way that they teach the 'baby' way then change it all again ... one of my beefs about skating!

The way I was taught it (finally) was to pick, draw back with the skating foot still on the ice until your feet are together and crossed while jumping up and around. It's difficult to explain on here because you have to take your body back as well as your foot but I was definitely not taught to pre-rotate by half a turn with either my arms, body or legs :lol: (though I did give it a good go ;) ).
By this description, it sounds like you end up with the right leg crossed in front of the left. On all doubles, I thought you wanted the left leg crossed in front of the right. What am I missing?

[doubletoe]

By this description, it sounds like you end up with the right leg crossed in front of the left. On all doubles, I thought you wanted the left leg crossed in front of the right. What am I missing?

There are two correct ways to do a toeloop. The one she's describing was more popular in the past than it is today. In this style, the take off is like a loop jump with a toe assist (hence the name). You reach back with your left toe, pull yourself back so your feet come together, then turn your right hip in and take off from both feet. So you do more of a 2-footed backward takeoff and get over the landing hip right away rather than jumping up off the picking toe, turning forward as you leave the ice, then getting over the right hip in the air.

[froggy]

Thanks for all the responses...nonetheless I'm not getting a clear consensus which way is correct or as doubltoe said both are. I tried the second way and I keep sliding on my toe..I just can't seem to pick it correctly in addition while picking and then sliding the RBO I'm all confused where my weight should be....more on toe or evenly distributed. next question in a post mentioned I think it was doubletoe on the latest post that one is jumping off 2 feet I thought it was the left with kicking through the right??

I would love to someday do doubles so for now which method should I stick with??

Thank you! and thank you doubletoe for all your posts not just on this thread but on others too!
happy skating

[stardust skies]

I've been told that the waltz, toe, and sal are basically the same jump in the air - in other words, not a full rev, unlike the loop, flip, and lutz, which are.

Not true- waltz is a half turn, salchow and loop are both a little less than 3/4 turns (whoever told you a loop is a full revolution jump must be on crack, it'd be physically impossible). Toe loop is somewhere between those two. You definitely shouldn't be facing forward as you take off. I mean, if you are trying to get rid of a toe waltz and your coach tells you a toe loop and a waltz jump are the same in the air, then you're not trying to get rid of the toe waltz. ;) The very definition of toe waltz is to set up like a toe loop and jump as a waltz...aka from forward. The person who said above me that you should be somewhere to your left while jumping is correct, though you should still be facing MAINLY backwards, not completely to the left. The only reason you should be a little to your left is to allow the hip to pass through as you jump so you can kick up. The only true full revolution jumps are the lutz and the flip. But a toe loop isn't a half revolution jump, if it is, it's wrong.

I didn't understand that the original poster said the first coach told her to jump off of two feet, but yes that is wrong also. The weight should be transferred to the picking foot...but what I understood is that the coach wants her to pass her picking foot with her skating foot before leaving the ice. That's wrong wrong wrong.

So many people teach the toe loop wrong. It's sort of impossible to say there is ONE way to do any one jump. But a lot of the descriptions here sound incorrect. In the future when you work up to doubles, it's pretty easy to tell if you're toe-axeling it or not. Toe waltz is harder to detect.

[Debbie S]

Not true- waltz is a half turn, salchow and loop are both a little less than 3/4 turns (whoever told you a loop is a full revolution jump must be on crack, it'd be physically impossible). Toe loop is somewhere between those two. You definitely shouldn't be facing forward as you take off. I mean, if you are trying to get rid of a toe waltz and your coach tells you a toe loop and a waltz jump are the same in the air, then you're not trying to get rid of the toe waltz. OK, I guess I didn't describe what I meant clearly. The waltz-toe-sal similarity that has been explained to me is that they all involve kicking through with your right leg (CCW) as you take off from your left (yes, I realize the setup and takeoff is different for each). What I meant about the toe loop is that I was told to pull the right foot toward the left upon picking, pick up the right foot before jumping (so no takeoff from 2 feet like I had sort of been doing) and begin to turn to the left and then kick the leg through as I jump (or something like that, I guess I'm not great at explaining :oops: ). It's the way doubletoe described it.

I think the person who told me the loop, flip, and lutz are similar jumps was referring to your needing to take off and land with your weight on the right side (as opposed to the waltz, toe, and sal where your weight shifts from left to right).

[Isk8NYC]

Not true- waltz is a half turn, salchow and loop are both a little less than 3/4 turns (whoever told you a loop is a full revolution jump must be on crack, it'd be physically impossible). Toe loop is somewhere between those two.

CORRECTION:
A Loop Jump is a FULL ROTATION jump as defined by both the ISI and the USFSA. The takeoff is from a back outside edge and the landing is on the same back outside edge. The use of a toe pick "scratch" for takeoff shouldn't take a 1/4 rotation off the jump. This is a different jump from a Toe Loop, which uses a toepick takeoff.

[Isk8NYC]

The Flip, Loop, and Lutz are all considered the more difficult full-rotation jumps so they get grouped together often, which is possibly what the person meant when speaking to Debbie_S.

I PERSONALLY don't care for the "on crack" reference. Crack is a hideous blight on our society that wastes young lives at an astounding rate. It's not a joking matter, as you implied. If you don't agree with someone (who, BTW, isn't even on this Board) please just say so, don't say that they're taking drugs.

[luna_skater]

CORRECTION:

A Loop Jump is a FULL ROTATION jump as defined by both the ISI and the USFSA. The takeoff is from a back outside edge and the landing is on the same back outside edge. The use of a toe pick "scratch" for takeoff shouldn't take a 1/4 rotation off the jump. This is a different jump from a Toe Loop, which uses a toepick takeoff.



Sorry, but I disagree with this as well. I agree the hook should definitely take less than 1/4 of the jump, but on a loop there's no way to be in there air for exactly 360 degrees.

[Isk8NYC]

Sorry, but I disagree with this as well. I agree the hook should definitely take less than 1/4 of the jump, but on a loop there's no way to be in there air for exactly 360 degrees.

I wasn't giving my opinion, I was stating a true, published fact. (No offense taken, BTW)

The ISU considers the Loop jump to be a full rotation with the same Base Scale of Values as a Flip jump. (0.5)
The Lutz, with its counter-rotational difficulties, is a tenth-point higher (0.6).

Again, the ISI and USFSA also recognize a Loop jump as a full rotation jump regardless of our board member's opinions.

If you disagree with the governing bodies of Figure Skating, you'll need to address their rules committees.

This one's more intriguing from a rules standpoint: half-loop (http://www.sk8stuff.com/f_recog/recog_j_halfloop.htm)

[Mrs Redboots]

The ISU considers the Loop jump to be a full rotation with the same Base Scale of Values as a Flip jump. (5.0)
The Lutz, with it's counter-rotational difficulties, is a point higher (6.0).Actually, I think you'll find it's 0.5 and 0.6 for a single loop, flip and lutz. The Salchow and toe-loop are 0.4 (which is why I keep telling my husband it's stupid to stress his knee for 0.1 of a mark! But he wants his loop jump back, so.....).

[Isk8NYC]

You're correct Mrs. Redboots

The comma in the table of numbers (http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-160824-178039-80283-0-file,00.pdf)didn't register with me. (That's why I usually copy-and-paste, too!)
I'll fix my post. Thanks.

[Skate@Delaware]

This one's more intriguing from a rules standpoint: half-loop (http://www.sk8stuff.com/f_recog/recog_j_halfloop.htm)
Hey, I accidentally did the half-loop one day!!!! Wow!

I hear skaters at my rink arguing all the time about jumps and whether or not they are full-rev jumps.

I'm just glad I'm not toe-waltzing anymore....:roll:

[luna_skater]

I wasn't giving my opinion, I was stating a true, published fact. (No offense taken, BTW)

The ISU considers the Loop jump to be a full rotation with the same Base Scale of Values as a Flip jump. (0.5)
The Lutz, with its counter-rotational difficulties, is a tenth-point higher (0.6).

Again, the ISI and USFSA also recognize a Loop jump as a full rotation jump regardless of our board member's opinions.

If you disagree with the governing bodies of Figure Skating, you'll need to address their rules committees.

This one's more intriguing from a rules standpoint: half-loop (http://www.sk8stuff.com/f_recog/recog_j_halfloop.htm)

I'd be very interested to know what the "published facts" are...something related to physics? Regardless of what the ISU or other governing bodies "consider" a loop jump, my own two eyes tell me differently.

Not trying to challenge you; I would honestly like to know more!

[beachbabe]

Not true- waltz is a half turn, salchow and loop are both a little less than 3/4 turns (whoever told you a loop is a full revolution jump must be on crack, it'd be physically impossible). Toe loop is somewhere between those two. You definitely shouldn't be facing forward as you take off.

I disagree, if you are doing it right, the loop should be very close to a full revolution, definately more than 3/4 of one. The toe loop is 3/4 of a revolution and you are saying its even less than that. If you're saying that, you can't possibly be doing it right.

[stardust skies]

CORRECTION:
A Loop Jump is a FULL ROTATION jump as defined by both the ISI and the USFSA. The takeoff is from a back outside edge and the landing is on the same back outside edge. The use of a toe pick "scratch" for takeoff shouldn't take a 1/4 rotation off the jump. This is a different jump from a Toe Loop, which uses a toepick takeoff.

Yeah...and the rulebook says a lutz is from an outside edge. Doesn't mean most people don't flutz, and so far I've never seen anyone lose a championship or fail a test over it. :roll: This is a dramatic example since a flutz is actually a technical flaw whereas pre-rotation isn't on edge jumps (except the axel) if it's at or under 1/4 turn, but what I'm saying is that just because the rulebook says something doesn't mean you can't successfully do your jumps and get rewarded for them if you don't abide by every single letter of it. In the end, it's just paper. What is on the ice is what really matters, and most of it is semantics. You're really just grasping away for something that isn't there with your reaction to my post. Here is why I feel that way:

I said the loop was a little less than 3/4 revolution. How much less did I mean? Would it even be possible to see that it's less than 3/4 with the naked eye? How slight of an extra cheat is it? You don't know. Yet I'm just being honest- no one gets around on edge jumps without some pre-rotation, the faster you go and more revolutions you go for, the more pre-rotation will naturally happen. The detail of "how much more than 1/4 would the cheat be.." is just like the lutz definition in the rulebook; everybody curves inward and flutzes a LITTLE, but sometimes it's so slight you don't see it- and the rulebook allows for a slight curve inward. The question is: HOW MUCH OF A CURVE? They don't tell you. It's all semantics, as I said. There's no need for a "red alert" because I said loops turn out to be less than 3/4 turn. It's true. Go to a coach who has a dartfish system or something, do a loop, have it analyzed, and see for yourself. Are you really counting how many degrees you're turning around in the air when you do loops? If not, how do you know how far around you've gone? You don't. There's a lot of gray area between 3/4 and 1/2. If you tell people a loop is a full rotation they'll think it's 360 degrees. Then they'll hurt themselves trying to jump off the edge without hooking it, and they'll never get the jump correctly at all. Much better to get them to realize that it ISN'T a full rotation, which it isn't. It's just "considered" one. But I didn't talk about what the USFS calls full revolution. I talked about the technical aspect of it, which is that you're in the air for 3/4 or less of a turn.

On another note, I don't know what you have against me by picking apart every post of mine you can possibly get your hands on that has some word you don't like in it (the crack reference, among many other comments you made about me and my posts, most of which your comments towards me are ruder than the initial one by me that irked you- just like this one, I didn't aim the crack reference to anyone in particular, and if that's how I talk then that's how I talk and since I'm not harrassing anyone on this board or even being vulgar I really don't see why I should alter my personality to fit yours) but you're the only reason I wanted to leave this board before. Thinking you might be mature enough to just lay off and ignore my posts if I'm not deliberately trying to be hurtful to posters on this board was the reason I came back, that and the fact that I like everybody else. But you haven't laid off, you just wait for me to post something you dislike and then you go right on it with it. You make it really unpleasant being here for me when I do nothing other than try to help people on this board with anything I might know or any insight I think I can provide (whether or not it works is another story but it's effort that counts). So I'm going to ask that you please keep your hatred of me and my posts at bay. This is how I talk and who I am (I didn't understand the media's uproar about Johnny Weir's crack references and I don't understand your uproar towards mine either- I'm not making fun of cokeheads or even saying crack is good, I'm saying someone has to be smoking it to think something as bizzare as whatever it is I quoted it with- it's an EXPRESSION, popular and widely used, that means no disrespect or harm to anyone, and if you can't see that then you really ought to lighten up, life isn't so serious), and if the person who I directed the post you're commenting on to is offended by it then they can take it up with me through PM and I'll apologize for putting them off, but usually you're the only one who's bothered. You can always put my posts on ignore if you don't like what I have to say. I'm guessing that since you're a mod, I can't put you on ignore which is why I'm suggesting it YOU do it so we stop this stupid back and forth that you keep instigating and that I've ignored on 5+ different threads since I've been back but enough is enough. I've had it up to here with you trying to tell me how I can or cannot express myself. I like the way I talk just fine, and I'm not changing it so if you dislike it please ignore it. Or, I guess you can ban me, if it makes you feel like a good mod. Gotta nip troublemakers like me in the bud and all. Cause that's reallllllly what I'm here for, I'm sure. :frus:

[stardust skies]

I disagree, if you are doing it right, the loop should be very close to a full revolution, definately more than 3/4 of one. The toe loop is 3/4 of a revolution and you are saying its even less than that. If you're saying that, you can't possibly be doing it right.

I've competed under COP a few times now and not only have never had my jumps downgraded, but have always had positive GOEs, so I think my coaches and the judges disagree with you. Not trying to sound as snotty as it's coming out, but it's been my experience with my own jumps. I think people think they rotate more than they really do. And that they jump higher than they really do. And spin faster. It's only natural. You have to slow motion it or dartfish it to really see what you are (and are not) doing, IMO.

[Mrs Redboots]

I've competed under COP a few times now and not only have never had my jumps downgraded, but have always had positive GOEs,

Good for you. BUT a friend of mine competed under it last summer, and was horrified to discover that, while she had entered in her PCP that she was going to do a loop jump, a flip and a lutz, the technical specialist had considered them three loop jumps! So you see, it can happen!

And, actually, while it's true that quite a lot of people do do flips when what they have written down is a lutz (and these days, increasingly, are marked accordingly), the opposite can also be true, and someone can do a lutz when what they were trying to do was a flip!

[sk8pics]

Good for you. BUT a friend of mine competed under it last summer, and was horrified to discover that, while she had entered in her PCP that she was going to do a loop jump, a flip and a lutz, the technical specialist had considered them three loop jumps!

Well, that's just bizarre. How does a flip turn into a loop? Or a lutz into a loop? I don't even see how you could be doing a flip poorly and have it called a loop. I think the tech specialist made a mistake, which has certainly happened in the past.

[Debbie S]

Yeah, that does sound bizarre. In other toe loop news, my coach looked at my toe loop last night and informed me that I am no longer doing a toe waltz, and that my toe loop is now done correctly - woohoo! (hoping it stays that way.....)

[Isk8NYC]

You can always put my posts on ignore if you don't like what I have to say. I'm guessing that since you're a mod, I can't put you on ignore which is why I'm suggesting it YOU do it so we stop this stupid back and forth that you keep instigating and that I've ignored on 5+ different threads since I've been back but enough is enough. I've had it up to here with you trying to tell me how I can or cannot express myself. I like the way I talk just fine, and I'm not changing it so if you dislike it please ignore it. Or, I guess you can ban me, if it makes you feel like a good mod. Gotta nip troublemakers like me in the bud and all. Cause that's reallllllly what I'm here for, I'm sure. :frus:

I corrected your post because many people come to our board looking for information and your statement that a Loop jump is less than 3/4 of a revolution is false. The ISU, ISI, and USFSA all consider it to be a full-revolution jump. I wasn't contesting the physics, I was clarifying mis-information.

I clearly stated that I wasn't speaking as a Mod in my second post. I was speaking as an adult and a parent. Jokes about people being on drugs are not funny. I've taken issue with several of your postings because you made fun of someone by saying they were on drugs. I DO NOT "go" after every post you put up, although I will disagree with you from time to time as others do with me. The key is to disagree agreeably, without insulting or getting defensive.

I really think you should take a look at your posts. Most of them come across as mean-spirited. Speaking and posting should be different since you don't have non-verbal clues to soften your "jokes." On the same note, I've asked friends to not say things like "These parents must be smoking crack!" I find it very offensive having seen people lose their lives to drugs.

If you wish to have your ID banned, just send a PM to the moderators.

[Debbie S]

OK, I was the person whose post drew the "crack" reference....

First, stardust skies, I hope you won't stop posting here, b/c your posts are very informative. It's good to have high-level skaters on the forum to share info.

That being said, I do see how some might be offended by the crack statement and figures of speech like that. I usually assume everyone means well with their comments (unless they're obvious trolls) but it's hard on a board like this where people often don't know each other personally to be able to come across exactly the way you want to. Like Isk8NYC said, when you post, it's different from speaking b/c you can't use voice inflections or non-verbal gestures to make your point come across the way you intended. And since those posting here come from a variety of age groups and countries, it's probably best to avoid comments that might be interpreted negatively, even if you didn't intend for them to be or you know none of your friends would react like that.

[froggy]

wow I cant believe how many posts came up from this thread. ok so heres the update. I spoke to coach A (you can look back at my original post ) who said the following that coach B's way is actually a bit more advanced but she likes to teach it in the beginning the way she taught me and then later picking it apart and correcting it. HOwever, she mentioned the toe loop is a very easy jump to cheat and people get away with a lot with it as you see at events many skaters will throw it a toe loop in a combination or as even 3rd in a combination even last minute to add to the points since its simple they just pick and jump.

so i plan to work equally on both set ups.
thanks for all the help and happy skating!!

[Mrs Redboots]

Well, that's just bizarre. How does a flip turn into a loop? Or a lutz into a loop? I don't even see how you could be doing a flip poorly and have it called a loop. I think the tech specialist made a mistake, which has certainly happened in the past.
My coach said, when I told him about this, that what probably happened was that the skater in question didn't actually pick in, but put too much of her blade down, and perhaps stayed on it slightly too long - he said he's seen too many people do that, especially under stress.

I know both the Husband and I have problems actually picking in - neither of us has either a flip or a lutz, but we both have a cherry-flip (toe loop), and both of us are inclined to put our skate down rather than pick in.....

[SkatingOnClouds]

a friend of mine competed under it last summer, and was horrified to discover that, while she had entered in her PCP that she was going to do a loop jump, a flip and a lutz, the technical specialist had considered them three loop jumps! So you see, it can happen!!


Actually I can see how a flip or lutz could be considered a loop. I have seen a skater who picks, pulls back to the pick, but then instead of of "pole-vaulting" off the pick, once her left foot is with her right, she hops off the picking toe. In the end it is really a loop.

It seems that is how her coach teaches the flip. If her lutzes are done the same way, they'll be more like loops too.

[luna_skater]

Actually I can see how a flip or lutz could be considered a loop. I have seen a skater who picks, pulls back to the pick, but then instead of of "pole-vaulting" off the pick, once her left foot is with her right, she hops off the picking toe. In the end it is really a loop.

It seems that is how her coach teaches the flip. If her lutzes are done the same way, they'll be more like loops too.

If the take-off is only from the toe, it's not a loop. For it to be a loop, the take-off has to be from a back outside edge, before you push up and off the pick. I can see what Mrs. Redboots is saying, that if you miss the pick entirely, you could end up doing something that looks like a loop. But it would have to be pretty bad to have it called as such, because the set-up for a loop versus a flip or lutz is entirely different. The caller should be able to tell what the skater is intending to attempt from the set-up...thus, perhaps those jumps should have been called as what the skater was attempting, but the judges should have hammered them on the GOE.

[tidesong]

The official definitions differ greatly from what I see other skaters do on the ice. For a long time I was so afraid of toe waltzing that I couldnt even toe loop properly. My double salchow was taken off too early, and had to be corrected to wait longer.

Different skaters tend towards doing things at different extremes and I think that sometimes the coaches try to adjust what they say to do to help the particular skater... for a skater that picks too far in, perhaps the coach says pick behind, for a skater that picks too far out the coach may say pick in.

I actually do wish the official definitions to be a bit more reflective of what is done by skaters.
I'm not sure that its possible to do a full rotation loop... I would love to see a video of one though if it were possible... (the sk8stuff example isnt a full rotation loop)

edit: However, I must say that I think theres a rule from ISU that the skaters do not get penalized for prerotating their jumps as long as they do not take off facing forwards (except for the axel jump) which means that the usual 1/4 prerotation is allowed even though jumps may be defined as full rotation jumps?
(somethings really get confusing trying to reconcile printed definition , what you see and what you attempt to do!)

[doubletoe]

Yeah, that does sound bizarre. In other toe loop news, my coach looked at my toe loop last night and informed me that I am no longer doing a toe waltz, and that my toe loop is now done correctly - woohoo! (hoping it stays that way.....)

Debbie, that's awesome! One of my favorite sayings: "Simple awareness is often curative."

[doubletoe]

By the way, although this part of the topic may be dead by now, I think there was just a little miscommunication on the "full revolution jump" issue and, once again, nobody was wrong.

The official definition of a full revolution jump is given in the rulebook and in the list of "listed jumps." According to the USFS, all of the following jumps are considered full revolution jumps for judging purposes: toeloop (and toe walley), salchow, loop, flip, lutz, etc. Under the new judging system, the walley is also considered a full revolution jump but not a listed jump, meaning it will be considered a connecting move but will not be given value as a jump.

But I think Stardustskies was referring to the fact that, when you look jump takeoffs and landings in slow motion, you will see that until you get to the lutz and walley (or maybe the flip), there will always be a little pre-rotation on the toe. That's just because--unless you're on an edge that is rotating the opposite direction from your jump rotation--it's physically unavoidable. For example, when examined frame-by-frame, even the best skaters in the world had their picking foot facing forward by the time the toepick completely left the ice on a double or triple toeloop. Because the takeoff edge is continuous and in the same direction as the jump, and because the rotation starts at the toe, the skater's hips were still facing just a quarter turn to the left on takeoff, which is correct. On the lutz or walley, there really isn't any pre-rotation because the entrance edge is not giving you any (since it's in the opposite direction from the air rotation).
Okay, people, can you tell I have no life and have watched way too many jumps frame-by-frame on my DVD player trying to figure this stuff out? ROFL!!

[froggy]

have watched way too many jumps frame-by-frame on my DVD player trying to figure this stuff out? ROFL!!


LOL I've done the same thing!! looks like we're both crazy or obsessed! :lol:

[xeo]

CORRECTION:
A Loop Jump is a FULL ROTATION jump as defined by both the ISI and the USFSA. The takeoff is from a back outside edge and the landing is on the same back outside edge. The use of a toe pick "scratch" for takeoff shouldn't take a 1/4 rotation off the jump. This is a different jump from a Toe Loop, which uses a toepick takeoff.

It's impossible to do a triple loop jump without turning a quarter and a bit on the take off. Any high level skater can tell you this.

[Isk8NYC]

I pointed out that the governing bodies of figure skating recognize a Loop jump as a full-rotation jump, not a 3/4 rotation jump. If you're contesting physics or skaters' abilities, start a campaign with the ISU or a new thread where people can discuss it civilly without overacting.