Radius of Hollow [Archive] - skatingforums.com

SkatingOnClouds

03-14-2006, 01:49 AM

All this talk about skate sharpening, I'm starting to slip off my edges, I can't put it off any longer.

I've been tossing up whether to get a Pro-filer to sharpen my blades myself once I've had them professionally done. Only problem is that Pro-filer only comes in 1/2" or 3/8" radii, and my blades are phantoms, which are 7/16" ROH.

It has been suggested getting my ROH reground to either 1/2" or 3/8". From what I've read, 3/8 would give me good grip on deep edges but may be a little too sticky, whereas 1/2 might not be enough. Also that the best ROH varies according to the person.

I am big (read fat - over 200 lbs) working on single jumps at the moment and trying to get back my upright spin and back spins. My aim is to have all these things working well and be working on axels and doubles before the end of the year (leave me alone, I'm allowed to dream).

Because I'm big, and have a fairly aggressive (read Kamikaze) style of skating, I do need good grip, but the ice at our rink is fairly soft in my opinion and I worry about too much grip. On the other hand, 1/2" might not be enough for what I do, especially as our small rink forces quite deep edges at times - mainly dodging recreational skaters and littlies.

I know it isn't an easy thing to give advice on, but I'm asking anyway.
Should I stick with 7/16" and keep having to miss sessions while they get sent away for sharpening? Change to 1/2"? Change to 3/8"?
Procrastinate a while longer?

EastonSkater

03-14-2006, 02:44 AM

I think that 1/2 inch ROH will be just fine for you on soft ice....even for hard ice it would be fine. 3/8 inch ROH would be somewhat ridiculous after a sharpening....because that's kind of train-tracks grip.

EastonSkater

03-14-2006, 02:58 AM

I forgot to mention that ... if you use 3/8" ROH .... you'll probably feel that your skates blades are fixed to the ice with magnets.

stardust skies

03-14-2006, 03:00 AM

Well, the heavier a person, the more pressure they put on their blades. Therefore, 3/8 hollow for someone heavy will feel a LOT sharper than someone light. I'm relatively light and personally, I tried 3/8 hollow once, and it was SO SHARP that I couldn't do anything. I literally drilled holes in the ice everytime I spun, and it wasn't from the toepick. If you're happy with 7/16, stay with 7/16. I personally think that profilers are bad ideas, but I know lots of people here have them.

Sharpening isn't that expensive, and it isn't like you never have to sharpen then if you have a pro-filer. You should find someone trustworthy to sharpen your blades either way. So once you have, what's the perk of a pro-filer? I skate 3 hours a day 5-6 days a week and have never needed "touch ups" that badly. It's your call...but if something ain't broke...I say don't fix it. If 7/16 works...why bother changing? It'll only set you back on your spins and everything while you get re-adjusted anyways. Not worth it.

mdvask8r

03-14-2006, 04:59 AM

I have to agree with Stardust re the profiler -- but do I recall correctly that Phantoms have a different shape/feature at the tail of the blade that is not compatible with the Pro-filer???

EastonSkater

03-14-2006, 05:17 AM

Yep.... I'd only recommend to use the pro-filer if your blades are conventional types.... with a flat sided side-profile, constant thickness....and parabolic rocker.

The good thing about the profiler is that you can use it anytime you want. And for those people that don't live close to skate sharpening services, the pro-filer is worth it.

I personally think that pro-filers are GREAT. They're not going to harm your blades if you just use it in the way the instructions tell you to. And the instructions are easy.

I just shove a little candle wax on both sides of the blade to make it slippery, and start sharpening away. It's the next best thing to a commercial sharpening machine....no kidding. And I'm not even affiliated with the people that make this tool. The reason why I found one was because I was in dire need to be able to sharpen my own skates after moving back to Australia. I didn't know whether I'd be able to find any hand-held tools for sharpening.......since I was skeptical of those things. But having used the pro-filer for ages, I know that it works GOOD. I know there is another thing called Skatemate.......but I'm really skeptical about that one, because that has a bendy cylinder, which doesn't sound too impressive.

russiet

03-14-2006, 05:34 AM

...and it isn't like you never have to sharpen then if you have a pro-filer. ...So once you have, what's the perk of a pro-filer? I skate 3 hours a day 5-6 days a week and have never needed "touch ups" that badly....

I think the perk for Karen is that she will have control over her blades. I don't think she has a prof. sharpener close at hand.

Since last September I have only used the Profiler. Not once did I use a professional sharpener. The Profiler wasn't a "touch-up", it actually keeps the blade sharp. If used at lesser intervals of time, it works great. If you wait for weeks between use, it is much harder to use effectively. It's like preventative maintenance.

I don't skate as much as you (6 times a week, for a total of about 6 hours), but I do find that in-between sharpenings that I need to side hone the blade and get rid of the small bur that develops from edge pressure. That may be due to inexpensive steel in the Ultima Mirage that I currently using.

I agree with you on body weight affecting the bite of the edge. I weigh 160 and use a 1/2" R hollow. I don't have any jumps bigger than a single, so that also allows for the larger radius.

Lastly, I think a consitantly crisply sharp 1/2" grind will do much better than a partly dulled 7/16" grind. Unless you like the dull spots.

Jon

sunshinepointe

03-14-2006, 08:40 AM

I dunno, maybe I'm weird but I'm pretty heavy (and tall) and I REALLY like the 3/8 hollow. I've had 1/2 and 7/16 and both feel like I'm on a slip n slide. On the 3/8 the first skate is always interesting because I usually go WAY too long in between sharpenings so there's an adjustment period but after an hour the blades are PERFECT for me.

But I believe that the pro filer DOES come in 7/16? I saw it at rainbo sports - was going to order a 3/8 one for myself but decided to hold off a bit.

Casey

03-14-2006, 02:08 PM

I like 3/8" too - that's what my blades are currently, and I'm 155lbs. I cannot stand 1/2", and I'm fine with 5/16" too.

Skate@Delaware

03-14-2006, 04:54 PM

I have always had a 1/2" even when I was 200 pounds. I have thought about getting the profiler, even if it's just for touching up the rentals that my son uses for his lessons (he complains that they have "no edges"....such a prima donna now that he's had a few figure skating lesson!).

I like mine newly sharpened! I don't like to skid! I know how you feel about that. When my edges start to slide out from under me....watch out!

doubletoe

03-14-2006, 06:26 PM

I think a consitantly crisply sharp 1/2" grind will do much better than a partly dulled 7/16" grind. Unless you like the dull spots.

Exactly. If you change your ROH to 1/2" you're just going from 7/16" to 8/16" and that's not a big difference. Think of it as skating on 7/16" blades that have been skated on for a few hours vs. skating on freshly sharpened 7/16" blades. And I'm sure the 1/2" will feel sharp to you after you've sharpened them. I use 1/2" and skate on very hard ice, and they're just fine. I sharpen them regularly (every 30 - 40 hours, as recommended by my blade guru) and they never slip.

EastonSkater

03-14-2006, 06:38 PM

*snip*
I dunno, maybe I'm weird but I'm pretty heavy (and tall) and I REALLY like the 3/8 hollow. I've had 1/2 and 7/16 and both feel like I'm on a slip n slide.

I think it's likely that whoever is sharpening your blades for you isn't doing it properly. Your blades aren't going to slip with 1/2" ROH that's sharpened properly.

flippet

03-14-2006, 06:45 PM

I personally think that pro-filers are GREAT. They're not going to harm your blades if you just use it in the way the instructions tell you to. And the instructions are easy.

It's the next best thing to a commercial sharpening machine....no kidding..
Since last September I have only used the Profiler. Not once did I use a professional sharpener. The Profiler wasn't a "touch-up", it actually keeps the blade sharp. If used at lesser intervals of time, it works great. If you wait for weeks between use, it is much harder to use effectively. It's like preventative maintenance.
I've gotta agree. I've used only the ProFiler on my current pair of blades, they've never had a machine sharpening. And I love it. I simply spent more time on the initial sharpening, is all. (I remember sharpening them on a long car ride--swish, swish, swish...for, perhaps literally, hours, but it's something I enjoy doing, so it really didn't bother me. I sharpened both my and hubby's skates that trip.) If I'm using it regularly, it only takes a few swipes per blade.

Some people are wary of their own technique, and prefer to leave any kind of tinkering with their equipment to the professionals. That's valid...you know yourself best. But I also know myself and my abilities...and I figure, if the professionals could learn how to sharpen a skate (no matter how they do it), then I had the ability to learn, too. And if the professionals could also wreck a blade mightily, even with all their 'expertise', well, I wasn't going to put the control in their hands. I like being in control of my own equipment, taking my own time to be as careful as I feel I need to be with it. I'd have to basically blindly trust someone else's statement of their expertise to have them sharpen my skates--and quite frankly, I don't like to give up that much control--I don't like the odds.

But it's definitely a personal preference, and either preference is valid.

Oh, and I like the 3/8" ROH, but then I like bite. A lot of bite. :lol:

sunshinepointe

03-14-2006, 07:34 PM

I think it's likely that whoever is sharpening your blades for you isn't doing it properly. Your blades aren't going to slip with 1/2" ROH that's sharpened properly.

I've gotten my blades sharpened by a variety of people over the past year and a half or so of skating ranging including my old coach who worked in a pro shop and a true "sharpening specialist" and I've tried a variety of ROH with all of them and 1/2 is not grabby enough - comparitively to the 3/8 it feels slippy. Just my preference.

Casey

03-14-2006, 08:10 PM

I think it's likely that whoever is sharpening your blades for you isn't doing it properly. Your blades aren't going to slip with 1/2" ROH that's sharpened properly.
You seem to commonly believe that your own opinion should be true for everyone, which isn't the case.

A 1/2" ROH inherently skids easier than 7/16", which skids easier than 3/8" which skids easier than 5/16", and so on. Thus, if you are used to a 7/16" sharpening, a 1/2" ROH will definitely feel slippery. Shallower hollows slide more easily which makes stopping slower and grip less, but they're consequencially easier to learn basics on - after being used to 5/16" and changing back to 7/16", I fell a few times because you simply cannot do as hard (fast+deep) of an edge with a shallower hollow - the blade will lose ability to hold the ice sooner. On the bright side the blades were quieter when on hard ice with the shallower hollow. It's got nothing to do with whether the sharpening was "proper" - it's simply the characteristics the different ROH's instill.

Casey

03-14-2006, 08:18 PM

Exactly. If you change your ROH to 1/2" you're just going from 7/16" to 8/16" and that's not a big difference. Think of it as skating on 7/16" blades that have been skated on for a few hours vs. skating on freshly sharpened 7/16" blades. And I'm sure the 1/2" will feel sharp to you after you've sharpened them. I use 1/2" and skate on very hard ice, and they're just fine. I sharpen them regularly (every 30 - 40 hours, as recommended by my blade guru) and they never slip.
On that note 3/8" is just 6/16", which doesn't sound much different from 7/16" either. But in fact the difference between 7/16" and 3/8" is slightly more than the difference between 7/16" and 1/2", simply because as the ROH gets larger and larger by the same increment, it has a lesser effect on the angle at the edges due to the fixed width of the blade (ahh fun fun geometry). To make it more obvious, consider that the blade surface is the edge of the circle with the radius, and there's a much bigger difference between the curve of the edges on a 1/4" radius circle and a 1/2" radius circle, versus say, a 10" circle and 10 1/4" circle, even though the difference is the same (1/4").

stardust skies

03-15-2006, 06:19 AM

I didn't know the profiler could entirely replace sharpenings. That's really interesting and I do stand corrected. I guess I didn't think about people who didn't live near a reputable sharpening place. It would make sense if you didn't, to try and get something like that, or even to get it if you like to have control over your blades. I would never trust myself, personally. It'd be like plucking eyebrows...you keep evening out each side...'til nothing's left.

But as for the 1/2 or 7/16 slipping...I don't get it. I might understand a 1/2 slipping...I skidded a bit the few times I did get that sharpening in the past (to try it out). But 7/16? That's a really popular hollow when I'm from, and people land triples on that. And obviously, they don't skid. It's all a matter of weight/height/blade quality and obviously preference, but...if you're skidding on a 7/16, I would think *maybe* (I'm not sure...but maybe) it's time to look at your edging technique. It's fine to prefer a 3/8 hollow, but it's not good to be dependent upon SUPER sharp edges to keep you upright. Anyone should really be able to land single jumps and do edges and spins on either 1/2 or 7/16 hollows, but especialy the latter. I have no idea how anyone can slip on a 7/16, if it's done correctly. That's a SHARP blade.

Again...I get the "preference" thing. But not the need. Not unless you weigh 50 pounds.

Casey

03-15-2006, 07:35 AM

But 7/16? That's a really popular hollow when I'm from, and people land triples on that. And obviously, they don't skid. It's all a matter of weight/height/blade quality and obviously preference, but...if you're skidding on a 7/16, I would think *maybe* (I'm not sure...but maybe) it's time to look at your edging technique. It's fine to prefer a 3/8 hollow, but it's not good to be dependent upon SUPER sharp edges to keep you upright. Anyone should really be able to land single jumps and do edges and spins on either 1/2 or 7/16 hollows, but especialy the latter. I have no idea how anyone can slip on a 7/16, if it's done correctly. That's a SHARP blade.
Just depends on what you're used to. I don't have any problems with 7/16" once I'm used to it - but if you get used to 5/16", and then change to 7/16", it won't feel as secure at first. While 7/16" is sharp, 5/16" is REALLY sharp. :P Where I noticed most was on spin entries - I'd gotten into the habit of going into spins fast and really leaning on 5/16", then when I tried that on 7/16" I'd skid on the entry - still would spin but it was a bit unsettling and threw balance off a bit. You could probably blame that on bad technique though. ;)

Skate@Delaware

03-15-2006, 08:10 AM

I knew I should have paid more attention in math class :frus:....

sunshinepointe

03-15-2006, 08:58 AM

Skate@Delaware

03-15-2006, 11:08 AM

For those that complain about not being able to stop on freshly sharpened skates....is that because the sharpener did not hone the sides or because the skater likes the skates dulled down quite a bit (or a combination of both)?

And, is the pro-filer fairly easy to use and hard to mess up your skates? I'd like to be able to "touch up" my skates in between sharpenings, and to hit the rental skates my son uses.

dbny

03-15-2006, 11:33 AM

Freshly sharpened skates are harder to stop in because the blades bite more. I have no problem with T stops, but find snowplows almost impossible and even one foot snowplows difficult, which is a problem because it is the stop I use most often when teaching groups, and I am always teaching snowplows.

EastonSkater

03-15-2006, 03:52 PM

For those that complain about not being able to stop on freshly sharpened skates....is that because the sharpener did not hone the sides or because the skater likes the skates dulled down quite a bit (or a combination of both)?

I think that's due to the blade edge being 'deeply' set in the ice during a typical glide. It's like it is deep in its own trench. It takes more effort to get it out of its trench in order to prepare for a stop.

And, is the pro-filer fairly easy to use and hard to mess up your skates? I'd like to be able to "touch up" my skates in between sharpenings, and to hit the rental skates my son uses.

Yep....the pro-filer is very easy to use, and won't mess up your blades if you just use it as shown in the instructions. Maybe after lots and lots and lots of sharpening, like over a couple of years....the rocker may change a bit, so you can then just take your skates to a pro and get those skates machine sharpened again - with rocker checking etc.

I wouldn't call it touching-up. The pro-filer really sharpens your blades. It is true sharpening.

I'm not sure about using the pro-filer to sharpen rental skates. The effectiveness on rental skates probably depends on what ROH they have on the rentals. If the ROH is high on rental skates.... like 5/8" ROH, and if the pro-filer is fitted with a cylinder for 1/2" ROH, then it might not work too good.

stardust skies

03-15-2006, 06:12 PM

I'd gotten into the habit of going into spins fast and really leaning on 5/16", then when I tried that on 7/16" I'd skid on the entry - still would spin but it was a bit unsettling and threw balance off a bit. You could probably blame that on bad technique though. ;)

Yeah, I *would* blame it on bad technique. You're not supposed to "lean into the edge" like that...just shows that you're really dependent on the blade, and that it is controlling you, and not you controlling it.

As I said, preference is understandable, but no one should be dependent upon their blades to keep them upright. You should be leaning with control (which means you could control the lean/edge no matter what radius your blade was sharpened at, ANY radius of hollow you get will be sharp, radius of hollow determines how curved the middle of the blade will be, but no matter how you slice it *no pun intended* the edges will be sharp, that's why you sharpen them) you should never lean with such dependence on your blade that you'd skid unless you got a deep enough hollow. A hollow should be preference, not necessity. Unless you're doing dance, maybe.

PS: I'm talking about people who *always* sharpen their skates at 3/8 and above, not the difficulty someone would have while switching from one hollow to another. Of course anyone would need adjustement time when switching hollows. But if you're used to 3/8 and can't hold an edge on 7/16, ever...and you aren't skating the same with both radii, then it's your technique that's bad, and the 3/8 hollow is just helping you mask it. IMHO.

stardust skies

03-15-2006, 06:14 PM

For me, I'm not referring to slipping as in turns and edges and such - heck, I had a 7/16 the last time and then didn't sharpen for about 4-5 months and didn't have too much of a problem until the last minute - I just know that when I do certain things, like stopping (especially those dratted tango stops), the 3/8 works out a lot better for me. In fact to be fair I've noticed that doing 3 turns is actually more difficult on sharper blades because I have to keep my weight "just so". So for me it's a matter of preference. I like knowing I'm not going anywhere and that I REALLY have to dig in to stop.

To me that's the example of a fine reason to want a 3/8 hollow. :)

PS: And as a general comment on the rest of the discussion: I've *never* had a hard time stopping after having blades sharpened, except for the few times I had a bad sharpening. To me stopping the first day after a sharpening is exactly the same as the last day before a sharpening. No difference, and there shouldn't be if it's done right.

dbny

03-15-2006, 06:24 PM

To me stopping the first day after a sharpening is exactly the same as the last day before a sharpening. No difference, and there shouldn't be if it's done right.

Methinks you are one in a million, as every coach and serious skater I've ever met has complained about the difficulty stopping after a fresh sharpening. It may only be for an hour, but it's there and is a well known fact. Maybe the opposite is true for you - you may not be getting a very good sharpening, thus no problem.

stardust skies

03-15-2006, 10:02 PM

Methinks you are one in a million, as every coach and serious skater I've ever met has complained about the difficulty stopping after a fresh sharpening. It may only be for an hour, but it's there and is a well known fact. Maybe the opposite is true for you - you may not be getting a very good sharpening, thus no problem.

I'm getting an excellent sharpening. People won Olympic medals this year with blades sharpened by the guy who does my skates. So I think I'm okay. ;) Actually this is the first time in all my life my blades are being sharpened correctly.

Strangely enough, though, all my coaches have always been baffled at my difficulty with freshly sharpened skates before I moved on to this sharpener, and every person I've ever spoken to be it pro shop owners or coaches have always told me that a sharpening done right should feel no different on the first day than on the fifth. You should be able to hold edges better after a fresh sharpening, but you shouldn't have difficulty stopping, spinning, or doing any moves (and I was struggling on the first few days before moving onto this guy). Difficulty stopping is the hallmark of a bad sharpening, I've always heard that. I don't mind if people don't agree, but it's what I always was told and I fully believe it. You have no idea how great it is to get skates sharpened right before leaving for a competition and KNOWING they'll be perfect from the first practice. I pay 10 bucks and they're good for a month. It's bliss. I'm pointing all of this out because I think everybody deserves such security.

I think people settle for "good enough", and maybe that's all there is near them, and if that's so, then I feel bad and am sorry you have to deal with less choices. However, being "good enough" doesn't mean it's good. That's what I think. If it works for you, great. But I doubt anyone likes having to dull down their blades after every sharpening.

Skate@Delaware

03-15-2006, 10:12 PM

My group coach/skating director sharpens my skates (she also does others) and she does an excellent job. She also hones the sides. When I step onto the ice it takes approx. 1 lap before I'm good to go. I get my skates sharpened about every 20-30 hours (that's my preference).

Once I let it go (I was too busy) and it was about 60 hours before I could get them done....I was skidding all over. It took 2 laps before I felt better skating on them but at no time was I unable to stop.

I don't think I'd have a problem using the pro-filer on the rentals, as they are sharpened (probably once a year) to a 1/2" roh. That is the only grind they can accomodate at the rink. I once asked for a 7/16" (on a lark) and the sharpener guy was like, "what? I've never heard of that one" :roll: I don't take skates there, since they messed up my son's hockey skates.

SkatingOnClouds

03-16-2006, 01:44 AM

I think the perk for Karen is that she will have control over her blades. I don't think she has a prof. sharpener close at hand.
Jon

Exactly Jon, that is my problem. I'm going to have to send them interstate, which is going to be time consuming and expensive.

I do like my skates sharp, and right now I'm slipping off edges into FO3s. I checked both Rainbo and the Pro-filer website, they still don't make 7/16" unfortunately.

Does the ROH make much difference to spins?

And while we're talking about that, I notice my coach uses Pattern 99 which have an 8' rocker, does that make spins easier?

EastonSkater

03-16-2006, 01:59 AM

stardust skies

03-16-2006, 02:20 AM

I don't think I'd have a problem using the pro-filer on the rentals, as they are sharpened (probably once a year) to a 1/2" roh. That is the only grind they can accomodate at the rink. I once asked for a 7/16" (on a lark) and the sharpener guy was like, "what? I've never heard of that one" :roll: I don't take skates there, since they messed up my son's hockey skates.

Probably cause he's a hockey sharpener. It's interesting to note that 7/16 isn't actually on the grinding wheel. They set it exactly in between 1/2 and 3/8, and that's how you get 7/16. That's also how 7/16 from one sharpener to the other can feel different, because some are more accurate at putting it exactly in the middle than others.

As for Celliste...what I am wondering is: are you only having problems on the 3-turns, or on everything including regular stroking? There are times when I feel like I'm slipping on a certain move and I think that I may for some reason need my blades re-sharpened ahead of schedule, but then I stop doing the move and just push off and hold forward outside and inside edges around the corners of the rink really fast, and I realize that I'm holding them just fine, and that it's the move I'm struggling with, not my edges. It's a sure fire way for me to tell whether it's in my head or whether my blades are dull, for me. Often it's just my brain that needs a little sharpening. ;)

PS: The larger the number of a rocker, the harder to spin in. 8 is hard to spin in because it's flatter than 7. The advantages of 8 though are that they are faster on the ice, plus they help to check landings on hard jumps because they don't curve as much. To somebody who is an advanced skater like your coach probably is, these perks are important, and when you're a skilled spinner, the flatter blade doesn't bother you. But spins are easier in 7 ft rockers than 8, or 8 1/2.

russiet

03-16-2006, 05:38 AM

Exactly Jon, that is my problem. I'm going to have to send them interstate, which is going to be time consuming and expensive.

I do like my skates sharp, and right now I'm slipping off edges into FO3s. I checked both Rainbo and the Pro-filer website, they still don't make 7/16" unfortunately.

Does the ROH make much difference to spins?

And while we're talking about that, I notice my coach uses Pattern 99 which have an 8' rocker, does that make spins easier?

Here's a link that covers many variables on blade configuration. http://home.pacbell.net/anamga/blades.html#5.5

dbny

03-16-2006, 09:48 AM

PS: The larger the number of a rocker, the harder to spin in. 8 is hard to spin in because it's flatter than 7. The advantages of 8 though are that they are faster on the ice, plus they help to check landings on hard jumps because they don't curve as much. To somebody who is an advanced skater like your coach probably is, these perks are important, and when you're a skilled spinner, the flatter blade doesn't bother you. But spins are easier in 7 ft rockers than 8, or 8 1/2.

Excellent explanation! BTW, my sharpener also sharpens for elite skaters, including at least one Olympic champ, and yet I can still feel the difference the first several days when stopping. OTOH, like I said before, no problem at all with T stops. Very curious.

doubletoe

03-16-2006, 12:40 PM

Just depends on what you're used to. I don't have any problems with 7/16" once I'm used to it - but if you get used to 5/16", and then change to 7/16", it won't feel as secure at first. While 7/16" is sharp, 5/16" is REALLY sharp. :P Where I noticed most was on spin entries - I'd gotten into the habit of going into spins fast and really leaning on 5/16", then when I tried that on 7/16" I'd skid on the entry - still would spin but it was a bit unsettling and threw balance off a bit. You could probably blame that on bad technique though. ;)

I hear ya! I was also in the habit of really leaning against the back inside preparatory edge before pushing off into my spins, and when I had bad ice or the blades were getting a little dull, I would slip off of it. Not long ago, I had to skate on really trashed ice and I knew it wouldn't hold my edge, so I was extra careful to stay right over the hip of the skating leg whenever I was on an inside edge. Damned if I didn't achieve the perfect entrance edge for my double salchow and just nail it for the first time in several days! Thanks to bad ice and dull blades, I learned a valuable technique lesson!

Isk8NYC

03-16-2006, 01:26 PM

I wonder if the sharpener you use automatically stones down the edges?

I have two different sharpeners, both of whom are very talented. (I don't "settle" - my Gold Seals are too expensive to fool around with.) One usually asks me if I want them stoned, the other only does it if I ask him for that service. For the last two years, I've been using the closer Sharpener, who, BTW, also sharpens the skates of Olympians.

I believe you are getting a good sharpening AND you keep your skates very sharp, therefore there's very little adjustment for you. You are unique and in the minority. Most skaters who don't sharpen frequently DO have difficulty stopping on newly sharpened skates, even if it's just for a short period of time. You'll often see them standing by the boards, scraping the ice to take the edge off a bit.

However, not being able to stop is NOT "the hallmark of a bad sharpening." LOL I once had a highly-recommended pro shop let a hockey teen sharpen my blades by mistake. He left the edges uneven, which interfered with EVERYTHING, stopping included.

Don't feel sorry for those people, learn from them. Not everyone has the same experiences, which makes life interesting.

I'm getting an excellent sharpening. People won Olympic medals this year with blades sharpened by the guy who does my skates. So I think I'm okay. ;) Actually this is the first time in all my life my blades are being sharpened correctly.

Strangely enough, though, all my coaches have always been baffled at my difficulty with freshly sharpened skates before I moved on to this sharpener, and every person I've ever spoken to be it pro shop owners or coaches have always told me that a sharpening done right should feel no different on the first day than on the fifth. You should be able to hold edges better after a fresh sharpening, but you shouldn't have difficulty stopping, spinning, or doing any moves (and I was struggling on the first few days before moving onto this guy). Difficulty stopping is the hallmark of a bad sharpening, I've always heard that. I don't mind if people don't agree, but it's what I always was told and I fully believe it. You have no idea how great it is to get skates sharpened right before leaving for a competition and KNOWING they'll be perfect from the first practice. I pay 10 bucks and they're good for a month. It's bliss. I'm pointing all of this out because I think everybody deserves such security.

I think people settle for "good enough", and maybe that's all there is near them, and if that's so, then I feel bad and am sorry you have to deal with less choices. However, being "good enough" doesn't mean it's good. That's what I think. If it works for you, great. But I doubt anyone likes having to dull down their blades after every sharpening.

stardust skies

03-16-2006, 05:11 PM

I wonder if the sharpener you use automatically stones down the edges?

I believe you are getting a good sharpening AND you keep your skates very sharp, therefore there's very little adjustment for you. You are unique and in the minority. Most skaters who don't sharpen frequently DO have difficulty stopping on newly sharpened skates, even if it's just for a short period of time. You'll often see them standing by the boards, scraping the ice to take the edge off a bit.

I think you hit it right on the head! I keep my skates sharp always, and yes my sharpener does automatically stone the edges down. I didn't use to let other sharpeners do it but the first time he did it he didn't ask me, and now it's perfect everytime. That must be it. Also, I really don't pay all that much attention to the bite of my edges, quite honestly. I just sort of put my skates on and go. I think a lot of people here pay more attention to detail than I do. I've never thought about blade placement on boots or other stuff that often gets discussed here. So maybe that's part of it too.

Either way, as they say, whatever works. I just hope everyone is getting as good a sharpening as they can possibly gets. I remember bad sharpenings so well, and they were the bane of my skating.

EastonSkater

03-16-2006, 05:24 PM

[Difficulty stopping is the hallmark of a bad sharpening]

That's not a hallmark of bad sharpening. That's a hallmark that the blades haven't yet been tuned after sharpening. And tuning can either involve stoning-down. Or it can involve skating around the rink a lot to dull the blades, or it can mean deliberately scratching blades against the surface of the ice until the 'knife edge' is dulled enough to provide the desired performance.

[You have no idea how great it is to get skates sharpened right before leaving for a competition and KNOWING they'll be perfect from the first practice]

We do have an idea how great it is. Because we're skaters too.

russiet

03-16-2006, 07:36 PM

Stoning the bur off is very important. You should check for burs between sharpenings and use a very fine grit stone to remove them. Your blades are burred if you can catch the tip of your fingernail on the lip of the bur.

http://www.sendpix.com/albums/06031618/nh5yj28h10/

I inserted a picture below (it's the above link), but it doesn't seem to appear once I posted this message. Yet I'm editing the post and I can see the image again. I'm mystified.

http://www.sendpix.com/albums/06031618/nh5yj28h10/mediumthumbs/0.jpg

stardust skies

03-17-2006, 01:31 AM

[You have no idea how great it is to get skates sharpened right before leaving for a competition and KNOWING they'll be perfect from the first practice]

We do have an idea how great it is. Because we're skaters too.

You missed my point. First of all I wasn't addressing *everyone*, just the people I included in the post as people who have trouble after fresh sharpening, and second of all, what I was trying to say was that having had in the past the same struggles those people are having now, having found someone who sharpens my skates perfectly and not having to go through the struggles people have talked about is pure bliss. That's ALL I was trying to say. I get my skates sharpened, I throw them in my suitcase, and I go to my first official practice not having to worry about whether or not I'll stick to the ice or be able to stop because they are perfect everytime. Before this sharpener I'm with now, I never had that assurance and sense of security, and it seems a lot of people are dealing with that too. Hence my comment.

With the way you responded, you're making it sound as if you thought I said what I said because I was trying to imply that I was better than anyone, or as if I didn't know you were skaters. I know most people here are skaters, and I don't think I'm better than anyone. That wasn't the point at all, and I thought I'd done an okay job conveying my point. Guess I hadn't, so hopefully this will clarify for anyone who's confused.

PS: EastonSkater, I've been wondering for some time due to some of the posts I've read from you in the past: are you a figure skater or a hockey player? Just curious.

SkatingOnClouds

03-17-2006, 02:09 AM

Skate@Delaware

03-17-2006, 10:26 AM

Whew, things seem to be getting a little heated here!

Thanks everyone for your suggestions, especially that terrific explanation of why an 8' rocker is not for me.

Much as I would love to have control of my sharpening by getting a pro-filer, I think I have read enough here to convince me to stick with my 7/16" ROH for now. There just isn't enough reason to change, and seems like quite a few reasons not to.
Yeah, I'm currently on an 8.5' rocker (comets). At first, my blade was the Mirage, which was 8' and I had got my scratch, centered.... then the rink closed for the season, my comets came in (with my new boots), got them put together and started at my summer rink. I thought it was because the ice was MUCH harder at the summer rink (which it was). Never did I think that it was the rocker. I wasn't educated about such things then. If I had known, I would NOT have gotten the comets mounted or even had gotten them. But, when you have someone who "helps" you, whatever.

Anywho, I can spin on comets, it's all in the technique, which I've had to "tweak" these past several months (part of improper teaching, part of weak muscles). Well, I have Aces (which are 7.5-8 I think) waiting in the wings for this summer and I expect a bit of a learning curve with them as well, hopefully not as much.8O

And, at first my sharpener did NOT hone the sides of the blades and stopping was an issue, then she learned. That is an important step. Another problem is letting blades go too long between sharpenings if you like a good edge. It takes a bit of adjustment once you get them back.

I had thought about changing my roh, but my sharpener only does 1/2"....(this is the same one that would only put me on Comets-basically if I change my roh, I have to drive 1.5 hours every other week :frus: ). So, I might get the profiler and stick with the 1/2" which is ok for now.

sunshinepointe

03-17-2006, 05:04 PM

Maybe those folks that need to use smaller ROH to get better bite on the ice have narrower blades. Blades of two significantly differently widths sharpened with the same ROH probably won't have the same grip on the ice.

This is interesting - I have parabolic skates, which narrow in the middle as I'm sure you know so maybe that's the preference for the deeper ROH?

Just to throw my thoughts into the mix, even with a 3/8 sharpening after about a half hour my skates stop nice and soft just like they would any other time :)

EastonSkater

03-17-2006, 06:08 PM

This is interesting - I have parabolic skates, which narrow in the middle as I'm sure you know so maybe that's the preference for the deeper ROH?

Just to throw my thoughts into the mix, even with a 3/8 sharpening after about a half hour my skates stop nice and soft just like they would any other time :)

Yep...that could really be something to do with it.

dbny

03-17-2006, 07:33 PM

Much as I would love to have control of my sharpening by getting a pro-filer, I think I have read enough here to convince me to stick with my 7/16" ROH for now. There just isn't enough reason to change, and seems like quite a few reasons not to.

How interesting this is! As a result of the discussions here, I have just about decided the opposite! What got to me was the idea that skating on a dull 7/16" hollow may be about the same as skating on a sharp 1/2" hollow. Because I work outside all winter, I let my blades get very dull before sharpening them. Then, of course, I'm pretty uncomfortable for a while. I think I may go back to 1/2", but get the ProFiler and keep them nice and sharp all the time. DH uses 1/2", so we could both use the same ProFiler. My other option is to go with 3/8", which DD uses and has a ProFiler for, but I think that might be too deep for me.

stardust skies

03-17-2006, 09:10 PM

Well, I have Aces (which are 7.5-8 I think) waiting in the wings for this summer and I expect a bit of a learning curve with them as well, hopefully not as much.8O

Aces have a 7ft rocker and while yes, it'll take a few days to get used to, it'll be a lot less difficult than the switch you did from 8 to 8.5. I think you'll find that everything comes much easier with the Aces. :)

Dbny: If you work on outside ice, I think the profiler probably would be a great idea for you. I heard the elements are horrible on blades.

doubletoe

03-17-2006, 09:41 PM

Yeah, I'm currently on an 8.5' rocker (comets). . . . I have Aces (which are 7.5-8 I think) waiting in the wings for this summer and I expect a bit of a learning curve with them as well, hopefully not as much.8O

The Coronation Ace has a 7' rocker so it will be much rounder than you are used to. It will probably put you on the sweet spot on your spins and make them faster and better centered, but jump landings will be weird at first. Until you get used to them, you will probably have to really force your heel down when you land.

SkatingOnClouds

03-18-2006, 01:34 AM

EastonSkater

03-18-2006, 03:03 AM

Well, I e-mailed the Pro-filer people, asking why they don't make their product in 7/16". Here is their response:

"The difference between a 7/16" radius and a 3/8" radius is less than half of one thousandth. That is, the 3/8" radius is deeper than the 7/16" radius by half of one thousandth. The reality is that skate sharpening shops don't even have a clear setting for a 7/16" radius. By choosing a 7/16", you are implying that the 1/2" radius ( which is half of one thousandth less deep than a 7/16") is not enough edge for you.

I recommend that you try the 3/8" radius Pro-Filer. You will not harm your blades in any way and I truly believe that you will like the edge that you get. ..."

I'm not sure about that. If a freestyle blade has a width of say 0.15 inch, then I found the height between the top of the hollow to the bottom edge (vertical distance) to be

1) 0.0076 inch if the ROH is 3/8"
2) 0.0065 inch if the ROH is 7/16"
3) 0.0057 inch if the ROH is 1/2"

So if you start with a blade with thickness 0.15 inch and ROH of 7/16" ...... and then you decide to change to a ROH of 1/2" ..... you'd end up with a drop in height.... of 0.0065-0.0057 = 0.0008 inch

I'm not sure whether the differences in height are meaningful though. This is because maybe the profile of the pointy bit (the edge) could be sensitive to small differences in ROH.

russiet

03-18-2006, 07:30 AM

I'm not sure about that. If a freestyle blade has a width of say 0.15 inch, then I found the height between the top of the hollow to the bottom edge (vertical distance) to be

1) 0.0076 inch if the ROH is 3/8"
2) 0.0065 inch if the ROH is 7/16"
3) 0.0057 inch if the ROH is 1/2"

So if you start with a blade with thickness 0.15 inch and ROH of 7/16" ...... and then you decide to change to a ROH of 1/2" ..... you'd end up with a drop in height.... of 0.0065-0.0057 = 0.0008 inch

I'm not sure whether the differences in height are meaningful though. This is because maybe the profile of the pointy bit (the edge) could be sensitive to small differences in ROH.

I agree that blade width has a lot to do with the angle of the edge. A small grind radius is a lot less grabby on a thin blade as compared to a thicker blade.

BTW, your calculations are off by a factor of 2. They are actually double what they should be.

1) 0.0038 inch if the ROH is 3/8"
2) 0.0032 inch if the ROH is 7/16"
3) 0.0028 inch if the ROH is 1/2"

I did a quick 1:1 scale drawing in drafting software and snapped some dimensions on to get the results. http://www.sendpix.com/albums/06031806/wop6bcc59n/

So, if you decide to change to a ROH of 1/2" ..... you'd end up with a drop in height.... of 0.0032-0.0028 = 0.0004 inch

I'm beginning to think we must be very sensitive creatures to be able to discern such small differences.

My opinion: Use the largest radius grind that you feel comfortable on. Between sharpenings side hone the blade regulary, always removing all traces of burs.

EastonSkater

03-18-2006, 07:44 AM

BTW, your calculations are off by a factor of 2. They are actually double what they should be.

1) 0.0038 inch if the ROH is 3/8"
2) 0.0032 inch if the ROH is 7/16"
3) 0.0028 inch if the ROH is 1/2"

oh yeah....true. You're right. My calculations are off by a factor of 2 because I forgot that the 'radius' of hollow is not the radius of the circle.

The ROH is in fact a 'diameter' of a circle, and nothing to do with a radius. Those morons need to change the definition..... or define ROH as a radius....instead of a diameter.

I had assumed that the ROH was a value for a radius, so thanks for bringing up that point.

russiet

03-18-2006, 07:57 AM

oh yeah....true. You're right. My calculations are off by a factor of 2 because I forgot that the 'radius' of hollow is not the radius of the circle.

The ROH is in fact a 'diameter' of a circle, and nothing to do with a radius. Those morons need to change the definition..... or define ROH as a radius....instead of a diameter.

The ROH does refer to a radius. 1/2 radius grind is a representative of a 1" diameter circle.

Prove this to yourself by measuring the diameter of the sharpening cylinder of your Profiler.

Geometry has always been my strong suite.

Jon

EastonSkater

03-18-2006, 07:59 AM

EastonSkater

03-18-2006, 08:02 AM

The ROH does refer to a radius. 1/2 radius grind is a representative of a 1" diameter circle.

Prove this to yourself by measuring the diameter of the sharpening cylinder of your Profiler.

Geometry has always been my strong suite.

Jon

I'm not sure what this site is saying then......

http://www.everglides.co.uk/html/about_ice_skates.html

"If you were to cut through a properly honed skate blade vertically (not recommended), you would find that the base of the blade has a curved groove ground into it.
If you continue this curve around to make a full circle, the width of this circle would be the Radius of Hollow (NB. not the Diameter of Hollow as you might expect!)"

russiet

03-18-2006, 08:14 AM

It would be interesting to see how the gradient of the hollow changes at the edges for the three cases.... like for ROH 1/2", 3/8" and 7/16". Maybe the edge profiles do change the performance by a fair bit.

Based on a .001 offset from the side of the edge, the angles of the edges are as follows (assume .15 thickness):

1/2R = 85.73 degrees
7/16R = 85.12 degrees
3/8R = 84.30 degrees

Not much difference. We are way too sensitive for our own good!

EastonSkater

03-18-2006, 08:15 AM

The ROH does refer to a radius. 1/2 radius grind is a representative of a 1" diameter circle.

Prove this to yourself by measuring the diameter of the sharpening cylinder of your Profiler.

Geometry has always been my strong suite.

Jon

I see....I think that if the ROH is a radius, like you said, then my original values are probably correct maybe.

russiet

03-18-2006, 08:19 AM

I'm not sure what this site is saying then......

http://www.everglides.co.uk/html/about_ice_skates.html

"If you were to cut through a properly honed skate blade vertically (not recommended), you would find that the base of the blade has a curved groove ground into it.
If you continue this curve around to make a full circle, the width of this circle would be the Radius of Hollow (NB. not the Diameter of Hollow as you might expect!)"

Tell them to correct their web page or the Skate Police will be after them.

EastonSkater

03-18-2006, 08:21 AM

Tell them to correct their web page or the Skate Police will be after them.

Sure will! I sure got run around the bush from their terrible info hahaha. Thanks Jon.

russiet

03-18-2006, 08:24 AM

I see....I think that if the ROH is a radius, like you said, then my original values are probably correct maybe.

Nope......

Skate@Delaware

03-18-2006, 08:43 AM

The Coronation Ace has a 7' rocker so it will be much rounder than you are used to. It will probably put you on the sweet spot on your spins and make them faster and better centered, but jump landings will be weird at first. Until you get used to them, you will probably have to really force your heel down when you land.
You are right-must have been having a brain spasm after reading about all these figures and MATH!!!8O I think I was thinking about the Pro blades for my daughter...I think...maybe I just shouldn't think...whatever.

I'm hoping it will help my crossovers, as the comets are sooooo flat you can't help but get on the toepick and scratch like heck! Most of the kids at the rink in comets have this problem :frus: while the ones in rockier blades don't.

EastonSkater

03-18-2006, 09:14 AM

Nope......

I just drew the pic of how I interpreted it....

at http://photos.yahoo.com/~easton_skater

I have the radius, R of 7/16 inch. The sides of the blade comes down to intersect with the circle. The blade width, W = 0.15 inch. T is the vertical length from the top of the 'hollow' to the blade edge. Angle O marked in the picture.

For ROH (R) = 7/16", and W = 0.15", I get the angle O to be about 9.871 degrees.

I get X = 0.431".
And T = 0.0065 inch.

Anything wrong with that calculation?

russiet

03-18-2006, 09:53 AM

I just drew the pic of how I interpreted it....

at http://photos.yahoo.com/~easton_skater

I have the radius, R of 7/16 inch. The sides of the blade comes down to intersect with the circle. The blade width, W = 0.15 inch. T is the vertical length from the top of the 'hollow' to the blade edge. Angle O marked in the picture.

For ROH (R) = 7/16", and W = 0.15", I get the angle O to be about 9.871 degrees.

I get X = 0.431".
And T = 0.0065 inch.

Anything wrong with that calculation?

Drats. Bad assumption on my part. Drafting package at home had different defaults set in place, so it defined the circle by it's radius. It made my circle twice as big when I drafted it in.

I just hate it when I take a strong stand only to find premise #1 set me up for a fall.

Here's the corrected draft: http://www.sendpix.com/albums/06031808/esgo2a7x71/

But that web site you pointed to is still wacked.

EastonSkater

03-18-2006, 03:45 PM

Here's the corrected draft: http://www.sendpix.com/albums/06031808/esgo2a7x71/

But that web site you pointed to is still wacked.

Yeah.....I agree. Thanks for putting up the draft. The info on that skating website is really terrible. I'll send them an email to get them to fix it up. Thanks for letting me know that the ROH is REALLY a radius...and not a diameter as that website incorrectly said. I just checked your pic....nice! That drafting software looks cool.

russiet

03-18-2006, 04:34 PM

I just checked your pic....nice! That drafting software looks cool.

It's an old 2-D version of AutoCad. Since I no longer use it at work, I don't use it as intuitively as I once did.

On the job we use SolidWorks, which is 3-D modeling software. You create parts and assemblies in 3-D. Now that's very cool indeed.

I finished up all three geometries. I'm not sure if really helps anyone, but here it is: http://www.sendpix.com/albums/06031815/0ri074o6gu/

stardust skies

03-18-2006, 06:42 PM

You are right-must have been having a brain spasm after reading about all these figures and MATH!!!8O I think I was thinking about the Pro blades for my daughter...I think...maybe I just shouldn't think...whatever.

I'm hoping it will help my crossovers, as the comets are sooooo flat you can't help but get on the toepick and scratch like heck! Most of the kids at the rink in comets have this problem :frus: while the ones in rockier blades don't.

The toepick is off the blade though, and has nothing to do with the rocker really, so I doubt it has much to do with it. When it comes to toepick scratching, it's just a technique issue. I'm betting that even if a lot of people have problems with it that wear the same blades- it's coincidence. I mean, a lot of people have a problem with PERIOD. :) You can look for your Aces to improve your spins and everything, but I don't think it'll help with toepick issues. Just saying this so you aren't disappointed if that turns out to be true.

Skate@Delaware

03-18-2006, 09:44 PM

The toepick is off the blade though, and has nothing to do with the rocker really, so I doubt it has much to do with it. When it comes to toepick scratching, it's just a technique issue. I'm betting that even if a lot of people have problems with it that wear the same blades- it's coincidence. I mean, a lot of people have a problem with PERIOD. :) You can look for your Aces to improve your spins and everything, but I don't think it'll help with toepick issues. Just saying this so you aren't disappointed if that turns out to be true.
I just heard my bubble burst......:cry: Although my technique has improved tremendously since I am in boots that actually fit my feet (for once in 3 years)....I understand...

me to self: push through the heel....push through the heel....
coach to me: can't your feet get any closer together????
:giveup:

dbny

03-18-2006, 10:29 PM

I just heard my bubble burst......:cry: Although my technique has improved tremendously since I am in boots that actually fit my feet (for once in 3 years)....I understand...

me to self: push through the heel....push through the heel....
coach to me: can't your feet get any closer together????
:giveup:

Not so fast. Of course technique is important, but Comets have an 8.5' rocker, and Aces have a 7' rocker. Not only can you easily feel the difference, but you may have less scratching going on with the Aces, as the smaller rocker is more forgiving of such things.