Questions about flip jump and spins

[frvanilla]

Hi! I have a few questions about the flip jump and spins and wouldn't mind some tips on them.

Flip jump.
This is what my current coach told me to do for a flip. First start with a LFO three-turn, glide on LBI edge and tap with the right toe, then do a half spin on the right toe before jumping up in the air.

When she was demonstrating it, she did a 3-turn, and then actually spinned on her toe until she faced forward before jumped. I am very doubtful about this "half spin". My question is: Isn't this cheating???

She has been emphasizing this "half spin" for virtually every jump, i.e. salchow, flip, loop, and toe-loop. For the loop, thinking to spin does help me to "scoop" up. I knew for toe-loop if you spin it is a toe-waltz. But I can't help thinking that she is teaching me to cheat the flip jump. Her technique doesn't help my jumps to be honest. My flip is underrotated. But I think I am not bending my knees enough and not gliding long enough on my inside edge. Any thoughts?

Spins.
I am doing one foot spin and sit spin for now. I am still scared of the camel and the back spin. My probelm is that I can't hook the spins. Instead of spinning into the 3-turn, I spin out of it. My coach really doesn't have any constructive suggestions for me to improve. Any tips?

After following through with the recent discussion about blades. I am seriously thinking about switching blades. Right now I am wearing Coronation Comet, which have a 8 1/2' rocker. It got me thinking, if I switch to something with a 7' rocker, such as Coronation Ace or MK Professional, it may help my spins???!!! :giveup:

Thanks a million!!! I am determined to overcome the spins and the jumps!

[Bothcoasts]

Single jumps--besides the axel--are full-revolution jumps. If your coach is encouraging you to hold the toe in the ice until you're facing forward, then you're being encouraged to cheat the jumps.

At the rink where I work, we won't test students until they can demonstrate jumps that are consistently not cheated. While your coach may not be bothered by cheating the jump, many coaches and rinks do not allow the practice. I applaud you for noticing this discrepancy and encourage you to work on the jumps without pre-rotating them.

In terms of spins, try getting a deeper entry edge and holding your free leg extended longer, until you feel yourself center. If you don't prepare properly and then center yourself as you start the spin, there's no way you can expect to locate your center thereafter.

[stardust skies]

I disagree with both your coach and BothCoasts.

The edge single jumps are NOT full revolution jumps. The toe jumps, however, are. YES, spinning on your picking toe pick in toe jumps IS CHEATING, big time. But spinning 1/4 turn on the loop and salchow entry is not cheating, it is absolutely necessary. It's part of the technique, and you'll never get any height or move onto doubles if you don't do it.

The loop and salchow should have a little "V" at the end of the entry edge. They do pre-rotate, and it's normal. It shouldn't be more than 1/4 turn, though.

The toe jumps should NOT have a "V"...it should be a smooth gliding line, then a gap, a toe pick, and the gliding line for the landing edge. You are facing backwards when taking off, simply switching your weight from your skating foot to your picking foot as you leave the air. No spinning, no pre-rotating.

If I were you, I would dump this coach immediatly. I know I already said that to someone else in a different thread, but in this instance, I really mean it. You shouldn't be paying a coach to teach you horrible technique that'll take years to get out of your muscle memory!!!

PS: YES, a 7 ft rocker will dramatically help your spins. So will a better coach. :P But for now, thing of stepping IN FRONT of you when you do the 3-turn into the spin, and not out to the side, or you won't be square and will have no way to hook it properly.

[Bothcoasts]

I should have clarified the differences between edge and toe jumps in my above posting. The toe jumps that the original poster and myself both referred to are full-revolution jumps. The skater should not be jumping forward off the toe pick.

Edge jumps have a little more flexibility, as stardust skies suggested. However, I would still focus on learning a salchow or a loop as a full revolution jump. While there may be a slight cheat--as noted by a "v" mark on the ice--I wouldn't teach skaters that these jumps are anything less than full revolution so that they do not come to expect that they can even further cheat these jumps. Heck, I'm the type who would certainly have further cut back on the amount of revolution of either the salchow or loop, had I been able to.

I've seen skaters attempt to cheat the salchow by assuming that the "v" mark means that they take off come to a stop off the toepick and then turn around to kick forwards, identically to a waltz jump. Who hasn't seen a skater pre-rotate the upper body prior to jumping on a loop jump before understanding the timing of the jump? The body should still be traveling backwards for all single revolution jumps, even if--on the edge jumps--the primary skating foot moves to a slightly open angle. This is why it's important to teach skaters that they are full-revolution jumps. If the skater doesn't understand that the body takes off and lands traveling in the same direction, there will often be a fair amount of pre-rotation.

I stand by my posting from above that single jumps should be taught as full-revolution to minimize cheating and create better, more powerful jumps.

[Bothcoasts]

They do pre-rotate, and it's normal.

If I were you, I would dump this coach immediatly.

Just to clarify, I'm guessing stardust is referring to the foot pre-rotating slightly on edge jumps.

I agree with stardust's post that you may want to consider looking for a new coach. Keep in mind that this is my grain of salt, given that I've never met your coach and don't know anything about him/her other than what you've suggested above. However, given your posting, if the coach wasn't simply exaggerating the elements and was indeed teaching you to cheat the jump, it's a little disturbing to me.

[Debbie S]

The edge single jumps are NOT full revolution jumps. The toe jumps, however, are. YES, spinning on your picking toe pick in toe jumps IS CHEATING, big time. But spinning 1/4 turn on the loop and salchow entry is not cheating, it is absolutely necessary. It's part of the technique, and you'll never get any height or move onto doubles if you don't do it.

The toe jumps should NOT have a "V"...it should be a smooth gliding line, then a gap, a toe pick, and the gliding line for the landing edge. You are facing backwards when taking off, simply switching your weight from your skating foot to your picking foot as you leave the air. No spinning, no pre-rotating.OK, but you do take off from the toe pick, correct? I realize you shouldn't turn forward before jumping, but you do need to get all your weight on the toe pick before rotating the jump. I'm in the process of re-learning the toe loop (I was doing a toe waltz) and my coach emphasizes that your weight shifts to the picking foot and your other foot takes off while you are still backward and kicks through as you turn forward. She did say that there can be a tiny mark on the ice from your kicking-through foot but it should not be a full V.

Btw, I believe a toe loop is not considered a full rev jump in that you take off with the non-landing foot (left if you're CCW) and don't really rotate a full turn like the flip and lutz. I've heard it said that the toe, sal, and waltz are basically the same jump.

frvanilla, I wonder if maybe your coach was doing that half-spin on her toe pick to exaggerate the point that your weight must transfer to the picking foot before take-off and she doesn't mean you should spin on your toe regularly. You may want to clarify that with her before you run out and get another coach.

[luna_skater]

frvanilla, I wonder if maybe your coach was doing that half-spin on her toe pick to exaggerate the point that your weight must transfer to the picking foot before take-off and she doesn't mean you should spin on your toe regularly. You may want to clarify that with her before you run out and get another coach.

This is how I was taught the flip. Exaggerated, in slow motion, I was essentially pivoting 1/4 to 1/2 way around on my pick before actually leaving the ice. It was a learning technique to get my weight on my picking foot, and push up off of it. As you get more confident with the jump and your speed increases, it will seem like you pick straight up and off the pick-foot. In reality, there IS still a very small amount of pivot on the ice. There has to be if you are transferring your weight properly while drawing your skating foot in, to get the right amount of spring.

[TaBalie]

Is it possible the coach is just walking through the jump slowly, rather than *teaching* the original poster to cheat the jump?

Most of my coaches don't do a full double/trip jump/flying camels/etc/etc/etc to demonstrate, they usually do a walk-through, emphasizing important parts, pointing out where the student is going wrong (eg. "You are droppping your left shoulder *here*").

However, if the coach is truly teaching you this jump and telling you to cheat it, then get a new coach -- who knows how many other things she is teaching you wrong?

[Bothcoasts]

Is it possible the coach is just walking through the jump slowly, rather than *teaching* the original poster to cheat the jump?

Most of my coaches don't do a full double/trip jump/flying camels/etc/etc/etc to demonstrate, they usually do a walk-through, emphasizing important parts, pointing out where the student is going wrong (eg. "You are droppping your left shoulder *here*").

However, if the coach is truly teaching you this jump and telling you to cheat it, then get a new coach -- who knows how many other things she is teaching you wrong?

Good point! It is possible that the coach's intentions were misunderstood--that she was providing a slow walk-through to explain the jump...

[flippet]

That, and sometimes a coach will exaggerate something in order to get the skater to do even the tiniest bit of it. It's individualized for the particular skater and that skater's issues. Kind of like thinking about rolling the toes up on back crossovers, or leaning onto the pinky toe on backspins. It doesn't really happen, but thinking about it edges you toward it just enough to get the desired result.

But yeah, if your coach really wants you to completely and totally do what she's demonstrating, you may want to shop around. Ask her about it first, though--honesty first and foremost.

[SkatingOnClouds]

The edge single jumps are NOT full revolution jumps. The toe jumps, however, are. YES, spinning on your picking toe pick in toe jumps IS CHEATING, big time. But spinning 1/4 turn on the loop and salchow entry is not cheating, it is absolutely necessary. It's part of the technique, and you'll never get any height or move onto doubles if you don't do it.

The loop and salchow should have a little "V" at the end of the entry edge. They do pre-rotate, and it's normal. It shouldn't be more than 1/4 turn, though.

Wow, thank you so much for this thread. 20 years ago I struggled with the salchow and loop, assiduously trying to not pre-rotate, and all I could do was a little hop. I haven't really tried them this time around, but you've just given me the freedom to be more relaxed about them.

[stardust skies]

I should have clarified the differences between edge and toe jumps in my above posting. The toe jumps that the original poster and myself both referred to are full-revolution jumps. The skater should not be jumping forward off the toe pick.

Edge jumps have a little more flexibility, as stardust skies suggested. However, I would still focus on learning a salchow or a loop as a full revolution jump. While there may be a slight cheat--as noted by a "v" mark on the ice--I wouldn't teach skaters that these jumps are anything less than full revolution so that they do not come to expect that they can even further cheat these jumps. Heck, I'm the type who would certainly have further cut back on the amount of revolution of either the salchow or loop, had I been able to.

I've seen skaters attempt to cheat the salchow by assuming that the "v" mark means that they take off come to a stop off the toepick and then turn around to kick forwards, identically to a waltz jump. Who hasn't seen a skater pre-rotate the upper body prior to jumping on a loop jump before understanding the timing of the jump? The body should still be traveling backwards for all single revolution jumps, even if--on the edge jumps--the primary skating foot moves to a slightly open angle. This is why it's important to teach skaters that they are full-revolution jumps. If the skater doesn't understand that the body takes off and lands traveling in the same direction, there will often be a fair amount of pre-rotation.

I stand by my posting from above that single jumps should be taught as full-revolution to minimize cheating and create better, more powerful jumps.

See...my coaches thought the opposite, but I didn't get to it til doubles. Until I did doubles I thought singles were full rotation jumps (edge jumps I mean), but then I got to doubles and I was really "stuck" so to speak on how to snap into the backspin position, and that is when my coaches explained that it wasn't really a full rotation (or in this case two full rotations). It was really a mental block at first, and as soon as I started realizing that you had to turn some and that you weren't actually doing two rotations in the air, I somehow got more confident and started doing the jumps (both singles and doubles) muchhhhh bigger, faster, and higher than I ever had before. It didn't give me license to try and cheat them more than the jump required, but it made them look and feel much less difficult, especially when I was first trying to learn multi-rotation jumps. So think it really depends on the person and how their minds work. For me, it helps. I can see how for others it might make them want to cheat it more than they really should. But I think a lot of people get stuck on edge jumps thinking they are not allowed to turn AT ALL on the edge, and so they do all these weird body contortions to try and get around, without realizing that the only way they'll ever get height and oomph in the jump is if they jump off/hook their toepick, for which there needs to be some pre-rotation. The only way not to "cheat" a loop or salchow would be to jump off the edge, which is nearly impossible and even if it can be done (I've done it), you'll never get very far that way.

It's an interesting topic, though.

[stardust skies]

OK, but you do take off from the toe pick, correct? I realize you shouldn't turn forward before jumping, but you do need to get all your weight on the toe pick before rotating the jump. I'm in the process of re-learning the toe loop (I was doing a toe waltz) and my coach emphasizes that your weight shifts to the picking foot and your other foot takes off while you are still backward and kicks through as you turn forward. She did say that there can be a tiny mark on the ice from your kicking-through foot but it should not be a full V.

Btw, I believe a toe loop is not considered a full rev jump in that you take off with the non-landing foot (left if you're CCW) and don't really rotate a full turn like the flip and lutz. I've heard it said that the toe, sal, and waltz are basically the same jump.



For the toe loop...there should be any kind of hook mark at all. If the salchow and loop jumps are cheated by 1/4 of a turn at takeoff, then a toeloop is cheated maybe.... 0.002 at take off, JUST because it's not taking off on the landing foot. But there should be no hook/V on it whatsoever. If there is, you are not shifting your weight to your picking foot fully before turning forward, and your skating foot is not getting off the ice soon enough. A toe-waltz/toe-axel is a pain to fix though, so it will take a while! At least you're fixing it!

Wow, thank you so much for this thread. 20 years ago I struggled with the salchow and loop, assiduously trying to not pre-rotate, and all I could do was a little hop. I haven't really tried them this time around, but you've just given me the freedom to be more relaxed about them.

:D Yay. Edge jumps are my favorites! I hope you try them again soon!

[Skate@Delaware]

I am learning the flip and am told that after the 3, I'm to bend deeper (and not hunch forward!) stretch my picking leg way back, pick in and let my other leg skate to it. It should almost be a vault off the picking foot with the weight transfer.

She also tells me the only "cheat" I'm allowed is on the landing 8O if I point my toe I can recover almost any type of less-than-perfect rotation (unless, of course, it's waaaay bad).... Well, I'm not there yet.

[frvanilla]

Thank you for all your technical explanations! Sorry for my late reply, I was too busy catching up with the men's free skate program last night.

To Debbie S, luna_skater, TaBalie and Bothcoasts:

Yes, my coach is walking through the jump. It could be that she is exaggerating or it could be my misunderstanding. It could also be a language barrier because she doesn't speak much English. I am going to leave aside what she "truly" wants because I could be wrong. But the problem is that a beginner skater (like me) would go ahead and cheat the jump because that is what she said explicitly and did not explain what or why this is cheating.

One more problem with this pre-rotation/half-spin method in a flip jump is that I will tend to roll my right ankle out to right side when I pick instead of picking straight to the back if I think about spinning on my toes. (I jump CCW.) Anyone with the same problem?

It would also be good if she points out what I am doing wrong. :roll:


To Bothcoasts:

Thx for pointing out that "the body should still be traveling backwards for all single revolution jumps." It's a good reminder to check my body and arms.


To stardust skies:

Thanks for the detailed explanations!!! This hook in loop and salchow, does it look something like this?
Take off: (/
Landing:　(

And does the pre-rotation in the salchow happen after I bring my right leg to the front and at the time that I wrap it around my body?

Um... please don't feel bad to tell me to look for another coach. Simply put it this way, her teaching just hasn't really worked out for me. :??

[frvanilla]

She also tells me the only "cheat" I'm allowed is on the landing 8O if I point my toe I can recover almost any type of less-than-perfect rotation (unless, of course, it's waaaay bad).... Well, I'm not there yet.
So if you are pointing your toes on landing, you can avoid underrotating (landing outside the circle) the jump or land into a three-turn?

[sunshinepointe]

Look at it like this - a half flip isn't rotated at all, so a full flip follows the same progression. My half flip and full flip have identical entries...in the full flip I just rotate an extra 1/2 turn.

[frvanilla]

Look at it like this - a half flip isn't rotated at all, so a full flip follows the same progression. My half flip and full flip have identical entries...in the full flip I just rotate an extra 1/2 turn.
What is a half flip? I heard of this jump before, but I didn't/hadn't learn it (yet).

[Skate@Delaware]

So if you are pointing your toes on landing, you can avoid underrotating (landing outside the circle) the jump or land into a three-turn?
That's the theory!! I haven't been able to "prove" it yet, as I'm not landing the flip one-footed!

[Debbie S]

And does the pre-rotation in the salchow happen after I bring my right leg to the front and at the time that I wrap it around my body?Actually, in a single salchow, your leg doesn't really wrap around. After the LFO turn (assuming you rotate CCW), you hold the BI edge as it curves around and you kick your right leg through (like a waltz jump) and jump as you turn forward. To help you get more height, kick up and out, rather than inward toward your left leg. The wrap-around technique is what you would use if you were doing a double salchow.

[stardust skies]

I am learning the flip and am told that after the 3, I'm to bend deeper (and not hunch forward!) stretch my picking leg way back, pick in and let my other leg skate to it. It should almost be a vault off the picking foot with the weight transfer.

She also tells me the only "cheat" I'm allowed is on the landing 8O if I point my toe I can recover almost any type of less-than-perfect rotation (unless, of course, it's waaaay bad).... Well, I'm not there yet.


The first half is absolutely correct. The second is absolutely wrong. You can't cheat a jump at landing. It won't be passed on tests, it'll be downgraded in competitions, and it's really looked down upon altogether. If you HAVE to cheat a jump, do it at take off. It's less noticeable and less taboo. But ideally, don't do it at all. ;)

[Skate@Delaware]

The first half is absolutely correct. The second is absolutely wrong. You can't cheat a jump at landing. It won't be passed on tests, it'll be downgraded in competitions, and it's really looked down upon altogether. If you HAVE to cheat a jump, do it at take off. It's less noticeable and less taboo. But ideally, don't do it at all. ;)
I think she is giving me the "ok" to do it until I get full rotation. She is one to constantly tweak something. If you can do something good, she will tweak until you are doing it better. So, she does allow some things to be "ignored" at first, but not for long...She did mention that I should be getting full rotations very soon.

I think she is gearing me up for something else...she has me skate full-speed laps of stroking and crossovers every session...8O unless she is just tired of seeing me skate like a snail :roll:

[Casey]

If you HAVE to cheat a jump, do it at take off. It's less noticeable and less taboo.
...not to mention a heck of a lot easier. Bad landings scare me :P

(and the best flips I do are the ones with the least prerotation where I push the body back more and take off the pick. The only lutzes I'm able to land these days are horribly prerotated though...I've only done ONE good one ever :/ )

[techskater]

Interesting those that are slamming this method of teaching the flip (pick, pivot, jump, check). If you check out the great master, Gus Lussi, this is how he taught the flip and the lutz and it's a good way to learn (I stress LEARN, not DO) the flip to get comfortable with the draw and getting the weight over the picking/landing side. He basically taught it that way and said as you get more comfortable with the technique, it'll speed up and you won't pivot before jumping, but take off backwards. It was eye opening to see it in his book since I didn't learn it that way.

[Skate@Delaware]

At least my private coach is different than my group coach....I won't have to worry about doing a flip-waltz! We are still trying to correct the bad technique I learned on the toe-loop (and group coach is still teaching the toe-loop incorrectly-I take it with a grain of salt). I just do it "our" way and press on.

Interestingly, my group coach is great at spins and edges and figures stuff like counters, rockerts etc. which we are learning now.

I guess there is more than one way to do a jump-some good, some bad.

[stardust skies]

Interesting those that are slamming this method of teaching the flip (pick, pivot, jump, check). If you check out the great master, Gus Lussi, this is how he taught the flip and the lutz and it's a good way to learn (I stress LEARN, not DO) the flip to get comfortable with the draw and getting the weight over the picking/landing side. He basically taught it that way and said as you get more comfortable with the technique, it'll speed up and you won't pivot before jumping, but take off backwards. It was eye opening to see it in his book since I didn't learn it that way.

I know absolutely nothing about Gus Lussi (except for his name and that he was a great coach) but doesn't his coaching style generally differ greatly from most other schools of thought on technique? I thought I remember reading that Lussi's jump technique was pretty singular. Didn't he also teach to wrap the legs in jumps? That may very well be someone else. Either way, I think there are 100 ways to learn the same thing. I just think that spinning onto the toepick to simulate rotation instead of jumping up sort of defeats the purpose of teaching people not to stay on the toepick too long and to use it as a polevault, and more importantly not to rotate on it. But different minds will pick up things different ways, definitely.

[techskater]

Lussi was the inventor of the crossed feet position in jumps (NOT wrap) as all skaters were doing side by side feet in jumps prior to Mr. Lussi. He made you learn jumps from a complete stand still to get the technique correct, including triples. He was also a master SPIN teacher. His skaters did very well and were very innovative for their time (Dick Button, Tenley Albright....)

[stardust skies]

Ohhhhhhh, thank you for clarifying! He really was a genius, then. :bow: