Outside Edge Work

[wisniew]

(Newbie question)

I am looking for suggestions with respect to drills, subtle aspects to focus on with respect to form or just general suggestions so as to really hit on good, deep outside edgework.

I am taking group lessons (Alpha ISI) and private lessons. I'm a little stuck on this in my private lessons. Coach has been patient and has given me a few ideas to help me. The group lesson unfortunately isn't much help, partly because of the number of people (11 for a 30-minute lesson) and the fact that Alpha focuses on the result more than the technique (doing crossovers before outside edges have been mastered).

And ... "just do it" (ice-time) is an appropriate answer also. I really want to move into a 3-turn as soon as possible, but I know that nailing the basics are more important. (In fact, my coach told me recently, that we aren't even thinking about too much else besides basics until "skates on ice" are as comfortable as "shoes on the ground".)

With respect to overall balance skills, I am probably the best in the group class (ONLY because of the private lessons ... believe me, no ego issues here), so the problem isn't that I am not ready for outside edge work because of balance problems. In fact, I am really empathetic towards the other folx in the group class who haven't got the good weight transfer/balance/knee bend/stroking issues figured out yet .. and crossovers are thrown at them.

Anyway, any help would be appreciated.

Thanx all

Joe

[Anita18]

Since you're still a newbie, the only thing I can really recommend is practice. Lots of it. That's really the only way to get comfortable with edges. I wasn't comfortable with edges until I was past the Delta level, LOL.

I mean, edges are edges. They aren't like MITF or jumps or spins where there's a "right way" to do them. Once you get more advanced, you should be able to hit an outside edge with almost any body position. (I mean, shoulders relative to the circle.)

You will go on an outside edge with some degree of lean once your hips are facing outside of the circle you are making. Thus, for an RFO edge, your left hip is pushed back relative to the right, and vice versa.

The trick with any edge, I've found, seeing how far you can lean without falling over. ;) It's scary when you're first learning outside edges since there's no leg on the other side to catch you if you lean TOO much. There's really no way to teach that even if your coach is really good, because you yourself have to get over that fear. But after a lot of experimentation, I found that you can lean quite a bit before you actually fall. :) Although, this only works if you keep your back upright. If you lean over with your upper body, you'll fall before you hit any edge. :lol:

I will say this: You can only hit a good steady edge when your upper body isn't moving. Again, this takes practice, to see what your torso is doing and why it's doing it. When I haven't skated in a while, sometimes I find that it's harder to check one side than the other, and it feels like I'm fighting my shoulders to keep still. Usually that's because I'm holding one shoulder too far forward. When you get a good edge position, you shouldn't be fighting anything.

It's worth it to spend the time getting comfortable with edges while you're new. (Notice that I don't say, "deep." Deep edges only come with years of practice. Sorry.) I was a slooooow learner on skates until edges clicked with me. Couldn't do a 3turn, couldn't do a waltz jump, until I stopped fearing the lean. Strangely, it was learning a waltz jump (the landing position) that I got the "Eureka!" moment regarding back outside edges.

[phoenix]

First of all you have a great attitude about getting the basics really solid. You will never stop working on them, and they are the foundation of all skating!

If you're able to do a push onto an outside edge and hold it a bit, have your coach show you edge rolls, which are a great drill for practice, as they take you down the ice in a serpentine pattern & you can just keep going forever.

You are also right in thinking this is a "time put in" sort of skill--you have to pay your dues in practice time. Each time you skate, spend at least 10-15 minutes on your edges--you'll be surprised at how quickly they progress!

ETA: when you work on these make sure your head is up & you're looking where you're going. If you look down it will tip your whole upper body forward & the edge will never be solid.

[wisniew]

If you're able to do a push onto an outside edge and hold it a bit, have your coach show you edge rolls, which are a great drill for practice, as they take you down the ice in a serpentine pattern & you can just keep going forever.

ETA: when you work on these make sure your head is up & you're looking where you're going. If you look down it will tip your whole upper body forward & the edge will never be solid.


Yes! I think coach called it a "rock-over".

Part of the problem is that I am trying to server "two masters" right now (private lesson and group lesson). The group lesson is ONLY addressing outside edges in the context of cross-overs with no other applicability or practices. And the 'boss" doing it right.:D

I struggle a bit (early on a LOT) with posture and yes I look down way too much. The posture is improving. This will help. When you say "look where you are going" do you mean looking "into" the turn (center of the turn) or "straight ahead"?

Joe

[Anita18]

Well, I'd say the most convenient is to look where your skates are pointing, so you don't bump into anyone. But really, you can look wherever you want as long as it doesn't torque your torso and you AREN'T looking down. ;)

I actually never got the hang of edge rolls, LOL. Well, I guess I have the "edge roll" part but now I'm trying to turn them into power pushes. I have a tendency to slip onto my toepick...It also doesn't help that I skate so infrequently that I've lost a lot of muscle. I went skating on Sunday (hadn't gone in a month, and before that, I hadn't gone in a month either) and my muscles just stopped being sore this morning. And most of what I was doing was stroking exercises and spins! Gack.

Crossovers can be helpful in learning how to control edges. Once you get your feet to cross over, you'll eventually learn how to push and pull with each edge. Fun stuff, it never ends. :) Well only if your coach is good, I guess. Some coaches never teach their students how to make their crossovers more efficient, and you can actually see it.

[phoenix]

Yes! I think coach called it a "rock-over".

Part of the problem is that I am trying to server "two masters" right now (private lesson and group lesson). The group lesson is ONLY addressing outside edges in the context of cross-overs with no other applicability or practices. And the 'boss" doing it right.:D

I struggle a bit (early on a LOT) with posture and yes I look down way too much. The posture is improving. This will help. When you say "look where you are going" do you mean looking "into" the turn (center of the turn) or "straight ahead"?

Joe

Try doing your crossovers in "slow motion"-- for example, hold for a count of 2 on each foot so you're getting a really good held glide in each position. That's a VERY good exercise for control. You'll probably find it easiest to look slightly inside the curve of circle you're on.

[Skate@Delaware]

Edgework is boring, yes. Kids don't work on them often enough, yes. Adults do (mostly). They are necessary (sometimes evil) and I find them relaxing. I'm working on getting the right amount of "lean" 8O

When you get more advanced in the crossovers, you will learn which edge you need to be on at which time (inside vs. outside) and able to hold that edge longer (front and back).

Right now, you should concentrate on balance and posture (don't look down or be stiff-legged!!!!). And spend the time on your edges and proper stroking (as a warmup).

Good Luck!!

PS-I also have 2 coaches-private and group and sometimes what they teach doesn't quite match up-I go with what the private coach tell me-I pay her more $$$$!!!

[TashaKat]

I used to think that edgework was boring until my coach really pushed me on it! Her philosophy was that if you don't feel as though you're on the edge of falling over then you're not trying hard enough 8O It's amazing how just altering my way of thinking (instead of comfortably gliding along on decent enough edges actually PUSHING my limits) really improved my edges!

Another exercise that she had me do was to start on a hockey circle, set up, push onto an edge and spiral it down and down and down as far as I could go ... usually until I HAD to do a 3-turn at the end of it. For some sick and weird reason I really enjoyed that! You realise just how much 'swinging' you do with your body when you try and exercise like that and it really focuses you to keep that upper body still :)

[aussieskater]

I'm working on getting the right amount of "lean" 8O


Hey, *any* positive degree of lean would be good here! (By which I mean any lean in the direction of the edge, instead of away from it...) My coach is still amazed that I get and hold an outside edge with everything from the ankle upwards (well, maybe the hip) leaning away from the edge! He comments how much better I'd be if only I leant *with* the edge...but the trick is how to trust yourself enough to take yourself there...

Any hints on that, anyone??

[EastonSkater]

The faster and sharper you travel around a circular path, the more you should be able to lean your gliding skate over to the outter edge side without toppling over to the side. The thing is...when you lean, it's not as if your whole body is straight and leaning like the tower of piza. You will bend to the side a bit from your hip ... a sideways hip bend so that you can get weight onto the outter edge of your gliding skate.

Inexperienced skaters will eventually be able to go around a circular path on an outter edge, but mainly around a wide diameter circle because they haven't yet ventured into the unknown.....that is, they haven't ventured out far enough to see just how much they can lean their hip over to the side while maintaining good posture and balance. Eventually, they will slowly build up to it. The more adventurous will just go for it. The really smart ones will put protective gear on so they can test their limits without fear even if they go beyond their limit.

New skaters will eventually be taught to bend at the hips sideways, which will then allow the gliding leg and the gliding skate to tip over on an angle. The upper torso must compensate for the lean by keeping the tummy etc right over the gliding skate. So basically, you'll be able to keep the bulk of your weight centred right over the gliding skate all the time.

So ... the gliding leg and company (ie including ankle and skate blade) should be leaned over at the same angle. While the upper body compensates to keep the weight straight over the gliding skate.

[wisniew]

The faster and sharper you travel around a circular path, the more you should be able to lean your gliding skate over to the outter edge side without toppling over to the side. The thing is...when you lean, it's not as if your whole body is straight and leaning like the tower of piza. You will bend to the side a bit from your hip ... a sideways hip bend so that you can get weight onto the outter edge of your gliding skate.

Inexperienced skaters will eventually be able to go around a circular path on an outter edge, but mainly around a wide diameter circle because they haven't yet ventured into the unknown.....that is, they haven't ventured out far enough to see just how much they can lean their hip over to the side while maintaining good posture and balance. Eventually, they will slowly build up to it. The more adventurous will just go for it. The really smart ones will put protective gear on so they can test their limits without fear even if they go beyond their limit.

New skaters will eventually be taught to bend at the hips sideways, which will then allow the gliding leg and the gliding skate to tip over on an angle. The upper torso must compensate for the lean by keeping the tummy etc right over the gliding skate. So basically, you'll be able to keep the bulk of your weight centred right over the gliding skate all the time.

So ... the gliding leg and company (ie including ankle and skate blade) should be leaned over at the same angle. While the upper body compensates to keep the weight straight over the gliding skate.

How funny ... I was just digging around this thread again, and other web resources, and trying to understand why all the great suggestions here resulted in mostly utter failure today. I didn't put the finishing touches on the concept of maintaining the upper body position over the skate (duh). (I knew that I was doing those weighted hip flexor exercises in the gym for a reason!)

Yea, I know, relax. Don't expect too much too fast. One thing that is becoming clear to me though, is that even though I "think" that I have good balance, that is only up to my "comfort level" wrt knee bend. As I push that limit, just normally stroking, I realize that I really have to start quad work off the ice. Ice time is just not going to get it done.

Yea, I really should get a diary going also.

Thanx

[jenlyon60]

Give it time and lots of practice. Edges are your friends, but feeling comfortable in the body on an edge takes time to happen.

[phoenix]

The thing is...when you lean, it's not as if your whole body is straight and leaning like the tower of piza. You will bend to the side a bit from your hip ... a sideways hip bend so that you can get weight onto the outter edge of your gliding skate.

Inexperienced skaters will eventually be able to go around a circular path on an outter edge, but mainly around a wide diameter circle because they haven't yet ventured into the unknown.....that is, they haven't ventured out far enough to see just how much they can lean their hip over to the side while maintaining good posture and balance.

New skaters will eventually be taught to bend at the hips sideways, which will then allow the gliding leg and the gliding skate to tip over on an angle. The upper torso must compensate for the lean...

So ... the gliding leg and company (ie including ankle and skate blade) should be leaned over at the same angle. While the upper body compensates to keep the weight straight over the gliding skate.

I disagree with this. A good skater will be on an edge & their body will be a straight line from ankle to top of head--there should be no "break" in the body w/ the hip jutting into the circle. It takes time & practice to get this, but you shouldn't get in the habit of dropping a hip into the circle, you'll never be able to hold that position at speed & it will screw up 3 turns, etc. down the road.

I tried to find some photos for example (yes, they're all dancers!), couldn't find one head on, but you can kind of see it. Their knees are bent, but their body line is straight, no dropped hip.

http://www.ice-dance.com/photography/2004lpidc/solo-novice/080404-0592.jpg

http://www.ice-dance.com/photography/2004lpidc/novice-cd-br1-awaltz/CookSidrov3518.jpg
(his position is great, she's too bent over. Wouldn't you kill for his extension??!!)

http://www.ice-dance.com/photography/2004lpidc/junior-cd-br1-atango/SummersettPennington5051.jpg

[Mrs Redboots]

Another exercise that she had me do was to start on a hockey circle, set up, push onto an edge and spiral it down and down and down as far as I could go ... usually until I HAD to do a 3-turn at the end of it. For some sick and weird reason I really enjoyed that! You realise just how much 'swinging' you do with your body when you try and exercise like that and it really focuses you to keep that upper body still :)You aren't the only one, I love that exercise - except on BO edges......

[sk8nlizard]

Hi All. It is my first time posting, I was a fairly high level singles and pairs skater, and now I am coaching while attending law school. Anyways, I have to disagree with Phoenix about the jutting your hips out versuses leaning completely into the circle. Your shoulders are always going to have to be slightly on top of your feet or else you are going to slip and fall over. The way I get my students to work on better edges is to put them on the half circles at the end of the rink where the hockey goals go. They then push and follow the half circle on two feet. While doing this get deep on the heels, and tuck your butt slightly under. Then lean into the circle by popping your hips in that direction. Once you do this, you can then gradually work on leaning your shoulders in slightly so the line is not as disconnected in your body. Once you master this, begin the steps again except this time on one foot. I think the key to a good FO edge is being secure on the heel of your blade.

[phoenix]

I think maybe dancers are taught edges differently (as far as body position). I don't do freestyle at all, just dance & moves.

[renatele]

I think maybe dancers are taught edges differently (as far as body position). I don't do freestyle at all, just dance & moves.

Not really... I was corrected many many times by my coach on forward crossovers - was sticking the hip out into the circle with shoulders going the other way. Those corrections have resulted in quite nice, solid XOs :) that were rewarded with praise on Tuesday by judges when I took the pre-juvenile MITF.

There is a difference between having a full body lean and applying a downward pressure on the "outside" shoulder for control, and bending at the hip.

[renatele]

http://www.chaleticerinks.com/robertunger.htm

This link was posted on one of skating e-mail lists. I was totally amazed at the amount of body lean! No shoulders being vertically over the feet here, for sure.

[phoenix]

Not really... I was corrected many many times by my coach on forward crossovers - was sticking the hip out into the circle with shoulders going the other way. Those corrections have resulted in quite nice, solid XOs :) that were rewarded with praise on Tuesday by judges when I took the pre-juvenile MITF.

There is a difference between having a full body lean and applying a downward pressure on the "outside" shoulder for control, and bending at the hip.

I agree with this, but was willing to split the difference..... :lol: A hip popped into the circle will result in a weak edge that will not hold up for advanced skating. Sorry, but this has been my own experience. Again, my experience is dance & moves, not freestyle, so you may be able to get away with it for freestyle.

[Raye]

My experience is to learn it right for freeskate too. I have a coach who is a real stickler for proper body lean with nothing sticking out, a lot less to correct or un-learn later.

[EastonSkater]

My experience is to learn it right for freeskate too. I have a coach who is a real stickler for proper body lean with nothing sticking out, a lot less to correct or un-learn later.

Actually....if we think about physics, it's good to not do a full body lean, like the leaning tower of piza, unless we're going fast enough around a circular path. If we're going fast enough and sharp enough around a circular path, then we have forces that counter the lean. But if we're going slower around a circular path, we must try to keep our centre of gravity over the gliding edge of the skate, or else....no doubt about it...we'd topple over. And the way you compensate is sideways hip bend, and trying to keep upper body over the skate....or trying to adjust the body so that the weight stays mainly over the edge of the gliding skate.

So yes....if you're going fast enough and sharp enough around a circular path.....no problem if your body is leaned over. But try going slow and sharp around a circular path .... there is no way our body can be leaned over like the leaning tower of piza.

And new skaters will mainly be practising at slow speeds, in which case, it is not possible to do a leaning tower of piza lean.

[flippet]

http://www.chaleticerinks.com/robertunger.htm

This link was posted on one of skating e-mail lists. I was totally amazed at the amount of body lean! No shoulders being vertically over the feet here, for sure.

That's a neat shot. To be fair, it's an inside spread eagle, which means he's got some speed/momentum 'pushing' the edge into the ice, to help support the lean. You can't do that at a turtle's pace!

[phoenix]

Yes, can definitely not do a big lean / deep edge at slow speeds. But it doesn't take much lean to get a clean edge, and it can be done without dropping the hip into the circle, even if you're not flying down the ice. Watch a kid doing 3 turns in the field--they're not going fast at all, but their body is still straight. Just a nice big arc-ing curve. Better yet watch someone do figures. Very slow, definitely not dropping a hip out of line with the body!

[renatele]

Yes, can definitely not do a big lean / deep edge at slow speeds. But it doesn't take much lean to get a clean edge, and it can be done without dropping the hip into the circle, even if you're not flying down the ice. Watch a kid doing 3 turns in the field--they're not going fast at all, but their body is still straight. Just a nice big arc-ing curve. Better yet watch someone do figures. Very slow, definitely not dropping a hip out of line with the body!

I started a long post, but phoenix said all I wanted to say :)



EastonSkater: you contradicted yourself in your two posts:

The faster and sharper you travel around a circular path, the more you should be able to lean your gliding skate over to the outter edge side without toppling over to the side. The thing is...when you lean, it's not as if your whole body is straight and leaning like the tower of piza. You will bend to the side a bit from your hip ... a sideways hip bend so that you can get weight onto the outter edge of your gliding skate.

Actually....if we think about physics, it's good to not do a full body lean, like the leaning tower of piza, unless we're going fast enough around a circular path.

(I still believe that good technique involves a full body lean, with the degree of lean dependent on speed/depth of edge).

[flippet]

Okay, wait...I think I understand what EastonSkater is trying to say. It's not a 'hip bend' exactly...you don't really 'bend' at the hip--if you do, you're certain to drop the hip, and you definitely don't want that. But if you're doing a deep enough edge (to the side, not a spread eagle), your upper body (or neck, even) will curve just the slightest bit towards vertical again....if it didn't, you'd look a bit like a dog hanging out the car window! But this isn't something you should 'try' to do...if you do, you're guaranteed to mess it up, and drop hips/shoulders all over the place. It's something that happens organically, and it is very slight.

[EastonSkater]

EastonSkater: you contradicted yourself in your two posts:

I believe that you may have misunderstood what I was trying to say. My comments were relating to outter edge work at slow speed around a circle for beginners. Not at high speed around a tight circle. So when I said that you can't do leaning tower of piza lean at slow speed around a tightish circle, it obviously means that you can do a leaning of tower lean at high enough speed around a tightish circle - while holding and maintaining that edge of course.

A 3-turn is irrelevant to the discussion.

And if you're not convinced about balancing on your edge, then I guess you can try balancing on 1 foot on a reasonably acute outside edge on a very clean piece of foam rubber at home. You try doing a full body lean and see what happens. You'd end up doing a shoulder slam right into the ground. But if you use your upper body to compensate, you might find that you'll be able to balance a bit on that edge.

[renatele]

EastonSkater: I know I came across like I'm jumping on you (does PMS count as an excuse?). I didn't mean it to come out that way.

I never disagreed that strong body lean is possible only on higher speeds/deeper edges. It's just that in your first post, where you say "the faster you go, the more you lean", you right away talk about bending to the side from the hip, and this is what I disagree with. IMHO, good technique always involves full body lean, at higher speeds it's very obvious, at lower speed it's barely perceptible. It doesn't take much lean at all to get onto a clean shallow outside edge. In fact, in the last several weeks I've had a chance to give tips to several beginning adults having a lot of trouble with outside edges, and in most cases their insecurity made them thrust the hip to the inside of the circle, with upper body compensating for it by leaning away from the hip. It actually made it impossible to get onto outside edge.

(I did manage to get onto outside edges using the hip-out technique with less upper body compensation, but my coach worked hard on correcting this bad habit :) ).

[EastonSkater]

I never disagreed that strong body lean is possible only on higher speeds/deeper edges. It's just that in your first post, where you say "the faster you go, the more you lean", you right away talk about bending to the side from the hip, and this is what I disagree with.

Oh yeah....true. That part there was definitely a source of confusion. You're right about that.

[aussieskater]

I disagree with this. A good skater will be on an edge & their body will be a straight line from ankle to top of head--there should be no "break" in the body w/ the hip jutting into the circle. It takes time & practice to get this, but you shouldn't get in the habit of dropping a hip into the circle, you'll never be able to hold that position at speed & it will screw up 3 turns, etc. down the road.

As a novice (read: baby, not Novice!!) skater, I agree with you. Coach is always going on about the break at my hip, and the free hip dropping into the circle. Where I really have trouble is in keeping the straight line from head to toe while leaning in - I cannot work out how to do this and keep my balance on anything other than a large circle!

Help!

[aussieskater]

(oops - pressed "submit" before I'd finished typing)

Go figure why my back outsides are my favourite, I don't break at the hip and I can get pretty decent extension and toe point (although not as much as the man in phoenix's photo - I wish!), but not with forward ones! That was why I was crying "help".

From everything anyone's ever told me, backs are supposed to be harder than forwards, but while I can do the half and full circle FO figure edges reasonably well on both feet (nearly ready for testing thank goodness - we do test them down here), I can't do them at speed without the hip jutting and dropping into the circle. I don't have this problem with BO's.

[EastonSkater]

As a novice (read: baby, not Novice!!) skater, I agree with you. Coach is always going on about the break at my hip, and the free hip dropping into the circle. Where I really have trouble is in keeping the straight line from head to toe while leaning in - I cannot work out how to do this and keep my balance on anything other than a large circle!

Help!

It's impossible to keep the whole body from head to toe in a leaned position unless you're travelling fast enough around a tight enough circular path. And in order for this to happen, you need sharp enough blades to grip the ice as you're going around. It's all about forces associated with circular motion.

[Mrs Redboots]

It's interesting, actually, listening to different (dance) coaches telling you different things, when, for example, you are practising forward progressive runs round the circle. Some will tell you that your weight should be slightly out of the circle, and others that you should have your weight fully over your inside hip. In fact, they are both right - you definitely don't want your hip sticking into the circle, as you could pull yourself off your edge that way, but equally, you don't want your outside hip sticking out, either!

Having said that, I wish I could get more lean than I actually do!

[EastonSkater]

It's interesting, actually, listening to different (dance) coaches telling you different things, when, for example, you are practising forward progressive runs round the circle. Some will tell you that your weight should be slightly out of the circle, and others that you should have your weight fully over your inside hip. In fact, they are both right - you definitely don't want your hip sticking into the circle, as you could pull yourself off your edge that way, but equally, you don't want your outside hip sticking out, either!

Having said that, I wish I could get more lean than I actually do!

It really depends on the radius of the circle and the speed you're travelling around that circular path. If you're going pretty slow, then it's hard to lean your whole body into the circle.

If you really want to lean your whole body real good, then you've got to be going at some adequate speed around a circular path.....in which case, a full body lean would necessarily mean that your hip is tilted inside the circle.

Exactly how much you can lean over is not really in your own control, unless you worked out in advance what your lean angle is for different speeds you do and different circle radii you go around in. Like, we can't just freely say we're going to tilt ourselves at X degrees for so and so velocity and for such and such a circular radius....because the circular velocity and the radius (and your weight...plus maybe your height etc) determine the angle of lean .... that's when you lean from head to toe at the same angle.

[phoenix]

I will try to take some video clips today at the rink of fast, slow, and very slow edges, so we can put this to rest. You can keep your body straight to get an edge. If it's very slow & shallow, the lean will be barely even perceptible, but it's still there. I'm not skating until tonight & then I'll post the clips later.

[Skate@Delaware]

It's impossible to keep the whole body from head to toe in a leaned position unless you're travelling fast enough around a tight enough circular path. And in order for this to happen, you need sharp enough blades to grip the ice as you're going around. It's all about forces associated with circular motion.
My coach, who used to do figures, says that you can actually get very deep edges with shallow, dull blades (they had them back then). When my blades get dull, she is always reminding me that a deeper knee bend is called for-it helps the blade bite deeper into the ice. It sort of compensates and helps to grab better.

Suppose you can never have too much knee bend:lol: I guess when you think you are bent enough-bend some more

[EastonSkater]

My coach, who used to do figures, says that you can actually get very deep edges with shallow, dull blades (they had them back then). When my blades get dull, she is always reminding me that a deeper knee bend is called for-it helps the blade bite deeper into the ice. It sort of compensates and helps to grab better.

Suppose you can never have too much knee bend:lol: I guess when you think you are bent enough-bend some more

Yeah.....I think that getting more knee bend here is to get more weight down onto that edge maybe. Of course, too dull a blade on very hard ice can feel unsettling. One time, somebody sharpened my skates incorrectly and I felt absolutely ridiculous on the rink....I felt disabled...like a beginner again. I left the rink after half an hour...got them done at my usual place, went back to the rink for the evening session .... absolutely amazing. It took me a little while to regain my confidence though on the edges.

[EastonSkater]

I will try to take some video clips today at the rink of fast, slow, and very slow edges, so we can put this to rest. You can keep your body straight to get an edge. If it's very slow & shallow, the lean will be barely even perceptible, but it's still there. I'm not skating until tonight & then I'll post the clips later.

Try to include one with very slow speed going around a tightish circle while holding the outter edge for as long as possible too.

[Skate@Delaware]

I can't wait to see the video!

[wisniew]

I can't wait to see the video!

Look what I have started!

You are all a fantastic bunch of folx to care about doing it "right".
Now go to your corners.:D

Seriously, I know that there is meat to boiled out of this discussion, but I wondering if it makes more sense to take the concept of outside edges and work it at some level of speed first and _then_ work _down_ in speed. I am somewhat (OK, "more") comfortable with inside edges with a little speed.

If nothing else, it will be a lot of fun working on these subleties that have been discussed (and I have an extra week to practice since coach is out of town. ):)

[flippet]

If you really want to lean your whole body real good, then you've got to be going at some adequate speed around a circular path.....in which case, a full body lean would necessarily mean that your hip is tilted inside the circle.

Tilted, yes, but not jutted. In other words, the hips should still be 'squared' up as far as the torso is concerned. But if you were to drop a plumb line from the ceiling, then yes, the hip would have to be 'tilted' into the circle--as would part of upper body.

Is this what you mean?

Man, visuals would really help, here. We're probably all saying close to the same thing, just with different words.

[icedancer2]

Seriously, I know that there is meat to boiled out of this discussion, but I wondering if it makes more sense to take the concept of outside edges and work it at some level of speed first and _then_ work _down_ in speed. I am somewhat (OK, "more") comfortable with inside edges with a little speed.

If nothing else, it will be a lot of fun working on these subleties that have been discussed (and I have an extra week to practice since coach is out of town. ):)

If I were you I wouldn't worry about the lean per se right now -- the pictures that have been posted on this thread having various amounts of lean -- but there is also something called a "counterlean" which is taught where your weight is outside of the circle -- too advanced for you at this point I think and will only cause confusion.

The one picture of the guy doing on inside spread eagle has tons of lean out of the circle -- otherwise you would never see his face -- see how he is leaning back from the waist?

Anyway, have fun and good luck with those edges. Lean will come as you progress -- I never even thought about it as a kid, but supposedly I now have "Good lean" without really even thinking about it! :halo:

[EastonSkater]

Tilted, yes, but not jutted. In other words, the hips should still be 'squared' up as far as the torso is concerned. But if you were to drop a plumb line from the ceiling, then yes, the hip would have to be 'tilted' into the circle--as would part of upper body. Is this what you mean?

That's right. That's exactly what I meant about that. Just that some people are wondering about leaning - whether the whole body leans, or only the hip is pivoted toward the centre of the circle. This just depends on what speed and what radius circle we have. Figure skaters obviously need to be graceful with the full body lean, but I think that's only possible to do if you're moving fast enough around a circular path. Going too slow for a relatively small radius circle won't allow for body lean at all. So in that case, it probably comes down to hip pivot plus upper body to compensate in order to travel around a small radius circle at low speed...or some other method.

[phoenix]

Gah, well mainly what these prove is that I need to work STILL MORE on my knee bend & toe point :frus: , but here we are anyway.

There are a few variations:

Slow from standstill:
http://phoenix.sk8rland.com/video/fo_slow.AVI

Faster w/ straight knee:
http://phoenix.sk8rland.com/video/fo_straight_knee.AVI

Faster w/ bent knee/extended free leg (don't look at the toes!! :oops: )
http://phoenix.sk8rland.com/video/fo_bent_knee.AVI

Alternating outside edges (I'm the purple speck in the far end that weaves in & out....)
http://phoenix.sk8rland.com/video/fo_alt_edges.AVI

Now here's the funny part!! In two places, the end of the slow edge & also the very end of the alternating edges, I dropped the hip (unintentionally), my upper body started to spin, & I had to put my foot down to catch my balance! Nothing like making my own point.... :lol:

And here, just to complete the public humiliation, I unveil to the world my Kilian, which is still at the very beginning stages of being a work in progress... (purple speck again by the end...)
http://phoenix.sk8rland.com/video/kilian_1_06.AVI

Enjoy/discuss/snark away!! 8-)

[EastonSkater]

I tried today, going really quite slow around a circle.....maybe around 1 metre diameter, on only 1 foot on an outside edge, and maintain that for as long as I could in a stable position. I could do it no problem by just pivoting the hip to 1 side, the maintain a balance point and using the upper body to compensate for the sideways-pivoted hip. Trying to do the same 1 metre radius circle on 1 foot at that same slow speed while trying to do a full body lean wasn't possible.....well, not for me anyhow. The speed was just too slow for it.

[Mrs Redboots]

I long to see them, Phoenix, but it will have to wait until next week - we have a problem with our phone line and the broadband connection keeps dropping. It will, hopefully, be fixed on Monday.

[phoenix]

I tried today, going really quite slow around a circle.....maybe around 1 metre diameter, on only 1 foot on an outside edge, and maintain that for as long as I could in a stable position. I could do it no problem by just pivoting the hip to 1 side, the maintain a balance point and using the upper body to compensate for the sideways-pivoted hip. Trying to do the same 1 metre radius circle on 1 foot at that same slow speed while trying to do a full body lean wasn't possible.....well, not for me anyhow. The speed was just too slow for it.

My question there would be, when would you ever want/need to go ultra-slow around a 1-meter diameter circle? Skating's about s p e e d......

[Anita18]

I saw them fine. :) Very nice skating, phoenix! And don't we all need to work on knee bend, LOL? You can never really bend your knees enough...

Anyhow, I can definitely see your point about whole-body lean. I'm not sure what I do (I actually think that I jut my ankle out so my body's leaning but my blade isn't :frus: ) but I'll definitely start paying attention from now on.

I think that the ideal thing to do is the full-body lean, since it also gives you core strength. Jutting the free hip in or out also makes things a bit complicated. Like, how much do you jut it, etc, etc...

[jenlyon60]

I would think that the side plank would be a good off-ice exercise for helping to build core strength to help with alignment for lean.

[EastonSkater]

My question there would be, when would you ever want/need to go ultra-slow around a 1-meter diameter circle? Skating's about s p e e d......

Ultra slow is not even necessary......just at a casual pace on an outside edge ... and maintaining it for as long as possible while going around a small diameter circle.

[brucen32]

I'm a beginner and having problems with outside edges (male with hockey skates). I think part of the problem is that the skates are loose at the ankles and they tend to wobble. So sometimes I get my outside edge by bending slightly at the ankle. I can't buy new skates. Is there some kind of ankle support I can use to prevent bending at the ankle?

Thanks.

[EastonSkater]

I'm a beginner and having problems with outside edges (male with hockey skates). I think part of the problem is that the skates are loose at the ankles and they tend to wobble. So sometimes I get my outside edge by bending slightly at the ankle. I can't buy new skates. Is there some kind of ankle support I can use to prevent bending at the ankle?

Thanks.

If you haven't already tried, maybe you can try to use a lace tightener device, which is just a plastic holder with a flip-out hook, so you can use that to tighten your laces. It's called a folding lace hook or something like that. Just use that to try pull things tight around your ankle area. But don't use really extreme force while pulling or else you could damage or warp the metal lace-hole if you pull too tight.

On the other hand.... you could try to order some very strong velcro straps from somewhere...1 inch width straps. Some companies sell these velcro straps with a D shaped ring on one end of the strap. They have to be long enough so you can do a figure of 8 ankle strapping ... that helps to get the heel locked in a bit better to the rear of the skate. But better not strap too tight or else it impedes flexing of your ankles.

[Anita18]

If you're a beginner, it also could be because your ankle isn't very strong yet and isn't used to holding you up on thin blades. Skates should definitely be the first thing you look at, but if the sides stand up by themselves when your feet aren't in them, they should be okay.

When I haven't skated in a really really long time, the first thing to get sore is the ligaments/tendons/whatever in front of my ankle, and usually that's within 5 minutes of getting on the ice, LOL. I've had my skates for a very very long time, but when I started on them, they'd wobble also. When my ankles got stronger, I found that I could skate in them even when they were pretty loose. (Of course, I couldn't do anything like jump or spin on loose skates, but I could stroke around okay.)

When I took lessons, my coach recommended that I not tie the top hook, so I could get more knee bend. The first few sessions, my ankles felt really wobbly, but I got used to that and now I can do everything I could do (and probably better, LOL) without the top hook laced.

[brucen32]

Hi, thanks for the replies. I did try the hook tightener. I will try looking for velcro straps. What Anita says is also true, my ankles are still weak. But I showed the skates to my group instructor and she did suggest tightening them up somehow. The skates are essentially brand new so they are still quite stiff. I've used them for about 5 or 6 times. They are bauer supreme 1000. Perhaps they just need to be worked in some more. I assume you should be able to bend forward, which I can do, but there should be no side to side wobble.

[EastonSkater]

Yeah...exactly, side to side wobble might not be the best thing for people that are beginning to develop their skating skills. Some hockey skaters like to leave the last couple of holes loose .... so they can bend their ankles, but that can be also unsafe. It's best to have decent ankle support that's for sure.

[flippet]

I don't know much about hockey skates, but I do know that when they're new, they can actually be more difficult to tighten than figure skates. They're a solid shell with a certain 'springiness' to them (at least, the ones I got for my nephew were), so it's hard to keep them as tight as you can manage to pull them at first.

I don't have any advice beyond what you've been given above. I like the D-ring velcro strap idea--you might be able to 'walk' it tighter and tighter so the boot doesn't spring back while you're getting it just right.

[mikawendy]

I'm a beginner and having problems with outside edges (male with hockey skates). I think part of the problem is that the skates are loose at the ankles and they tend to wobble. So sometimes I get my outside edge by bending slightly at the ankle. I can't buy new skates. Is there some kind of ankle support I can use to prevent bending at the ankle?

Thanks.

At the same time that you try not to bend at the ankle to get to the outside edge, maybe think about tilting the entire surface of your foot so that your pinky toe is closer to the ice. Also think about creating pressure on the outside of your ankle (so that the entire boot/foot/leg is leaning and you're not pronating or supinating to get the edge).

It really does sound like you need more supportive skates, though it would be hard for any of us on the boards to tell since we can't see you in action.

[wisniew]

Gah, well mainly what these prove is that I need to work STILL MORE on my knee bend & toe point :frus: , but here we are anyway.

There are a few variations:

<Snip>
Enjoy/discuss/snark away!! 8-)

First off. Thanx for taking the time to do this. I appreciate it. This was helpful. What is really interesting is that I was working for several hours on Saturday on cross-overs (obvious ouside edge involvement), as opposed to "just" outside edge work to ensure that I get through the Alpha test in a couple of weeks. I think that that has helped me more than just doing outside edge rotation drills etc. 1 session does not a skill make. But, the majority of my trouble on the cross-overs was mental. Now that is not to say that they are aesthetically good. But .... the crossover is now relatively smooth, no fallovers, no jerkiness ... and I am even starting to get the ...
what do you call it ... the kickout ... which pretty much required that I was on a good edge (not it wasn't a skid). Work progresses .....

Again, thank you for your dilligence.

Joe

[Skate@Delaware]

Hi, thanks for the replies. I did try the hook tightener. I will try looking for velcro straps. What Anita says is also true, my ankles are still weak. But I showed the skates to my group instructor and she did suggest tightening them up somehow. The skates are essentially brand new so they are still quite stiff. I've used them for about 5 or 6 times. They are bauer supreme 1000. Perhaps they just need to be worked in some more. I assume you should be able to bend forward, which I can do, but there should be no side to side wobble.
I tie my son's hockey skates (he is 9) and once we've got the top tight (I pull really, really hard), his laces are long enough to wrap around the back of the skate, cross, and pull to the front and tie. I tie them really tight.

The nature of hockey skates allows them to bend at the ankle and if you tie them tight, you get enough support laterally. Sometimes it's hard to get them tight enough if you are doing it yourself unless you use a lace puller. If you can't get them tight enough, then you might want to try waxed laces-those puppies get really tight and don't slip.