%#$ Camel Spin!!!

[sunshinepointe]

Okay guys - I just don't get the camel spin. If anyone has any tips, advice, magic pills I'd be so, so appreciative.

I've not improved at all since first learning the camel spin. I've listened to my coach but my body refuses to do what he says. I can't straighten the skating leg to save my life after the 3 turn. My back is too arched and I end up in some weird arabesque spin. If I try to keep my head down and if I force myself to straighten the leg as much as possible I'm up on my toe pick.

I'm not expecting miracles, but I'd like to have SOME improvement on it. I was sure that not being able to straighten the leg has something to do with my weight but I can get into the position and balance just fine at home off the ice. I can hold thaat position for days off the ice. I almost feel like I'm not completely over my left side, my chest isn't down, my knee isn't straight and it's just an atrocious spin - when I can actually spin.

I dunno man - I don't expect to have a gorgeous camel spin overnight, but the fact that my body seems physically incapable of doing it frightens me. I just don't think I understand the spins mechanics at all.

Help!!! :frus: :giveup:

[skatingatty]

I feel your pain! I've been working on camel spins for about 10 years. It took me about 8 yrs. to feel somewhat comfortable doing it. Try experimenting with different arm positions. Some coaches in the past told me to do it with both arms back with the shoulders squared, which never worked well for me because then my rt. hip would be turning downwards. Another coach told me to try it with my rt. shoulder turned around and left arm either in the front or towards the front curving down toward the left knee, and that seems to make my camel faster and more stable.

Okay guys - I just don't get the camel spin. If anyone has any tips, advice, magic pills I'd be so, so appreciative.

I've not improved at all since first learning the camel spin. I've listened to my coach but my body refuses to do what he says. I can't straighten the skating leg to save my life after the 3 turn. My back is too arched and I end up in some weird arabesque spin. If I try to keep my head down and if I force myself to straighten the leg as much as possible I'm up on my toe pick.

I'm not expecting miracles, but I'd like to have SOME improvement on it. I was sure that not being able to straighten the leg has something to do with my weight but I can get into the position and balance just fine at home off the ice. I can hold thaat position for days off the ice. I almost feel like I'm not completely over my left side, my chest isn't down, my knee isn't straight and it's just an atrocious spin - when I can actually spin.

I dunno man - I don't expect to have a gorgeous camel spin overnight, but the fact that my body seems physically incapable of doing it frightens me. I just don't think I understand the spins mechanics at all.

Help!!! :frus: :giveup:

[techskater]

You need to use the "sweep the table" method with the leading arm in the spin. It is this arm more than anything that creates the spin, the free leg stays back, the arm does the work. That arm must come all the way around, no dropping, no nothing.

[doubletoe]

Yep, it's my most hated spin, too. I just learned the flying camel and it's already better than my regular camel!

But here's what makes it work for me: First of all, I find that it's easier for me to do it from a very round right forward inside 3-turn instead of from back crossovers. Also, I find that it give me a longer, rounder entrance edge when I plant the left foot on the ice and bend deeply, then push myself onto the entrance edge (instead of trying to push off so quickly that my weight isn't in the right place).

Like someone else mentioned, you also need to keep the leading shoulder high and level as it leads you into the spin. Finally, your chin should always be up; your face is never facing down. It's just your belly and rib cage that need to face down to the ice, so there is an upper torso arch involved.

[cecealias]

Maybe post a video? (if you dare) so that we can see how to fix the problem?

There are so many different ways to miss the hook for this spin.

[coskater64]

I love the "sweep the table method" works really well and like double toe said a nice round entry w/ a softly bent knee so you get a little snap and around it goes. Mine took about 4 years to get comfortably, and the first one each day is blindingly painful, I have a lazy left hip flexor, I have to wake it up but after that, it's fine. A lot of practice and my coach makes me do it from a stand still almost, a single crossover into a large circle and stepping in with both hands either behind my back or holding a thera band behind my back.

[sunshinepointe]

Thanks so much for the words, but if anyone has any more advice keep it coming!

I definitely do the sweep the table - my problem is not the spinning I don't think, but more the correct body position. I have felt the right position in the past for a fleeting moment but I can't seem to remember what on earth it was.

The thing about the upper back arch is interesting though - I think I've been using a lower back arch, causing my upper torso to get too high up.

I'll try to bring my video camera the next time I go so you can see my disaster 8O - I know its almost impossible to coach online but I really really appreciate any advice.

I'd love to have a nice camel - I know it'll take time and all, but I'd hate for this spin to hold me back :roll:

[SkatingOnClouds]

What about you hip position? Is your free hip open or closed, because that might make a difference with the feeling of being over your skating leg.

[Joan]

What about you hip position? Is your free hip open or closed, because that might make a difference with the feeling of being over your skating leg.

The hip is my main problem with this spin - you need to start with the hip open and foot turned out, and keep it that way!

[sunshinepointe]

Hmm....I think I might have a problem with the hip too - I tend to not open my hips because of dance training...it took a while for this to sink in with the spiral so maybe that's another problem I need to look into.

[LoopLoop]

sunshinepointe, you wrote that if you straighten your skating leg completely you end up on your toepick. Is that because, with your dance background, that when you straighten your leg you automatically try to point your toe?

To counteract then, instead of thinking "straighten your leg" think of pushing your kneecap back and pushing your skating FOOT slightly forward. That should keep the weight on the ball/middle of your foot rather than on your toe.

[sunshinepointe]

Okay, I think you guys are getting me on track mentally.

I'm in my office with a friend of mine who skates too and we're looking at your notes, and videos of camel spins and I realized something.

I'm totally not open in the hip at all. The closed hip is resulting in a totally unattractive position and it's also keeping me from getting my skating leg straight somehow. It's also whats throwing me off balance.

So I tried to emulate what the girl in the video was doing off ice and I was SOLID in the off ice position. I'm antsy to get to the rink tomorrow to see if having a mental understanding of the spin will help me somewhat. My coach would always tell me to arch my back until it hurts - with the closed hip and my flexible back I just end up in an arabesque type spin with a lifted chest, but with the open hip I feel the arch pain he was talking about.

I'll update tomorrow and tell you how it goes!!!

[manleywoman]

Very simple exercise:

Assuming that you spin counterclockwise, practice your LFO spiral. The spiral is essesntially the position you're supposed to be in in the camel spin. Practice pushing off into a LFO spiral, and get into the perfect arabesque position -- back and head up, arms outstretched, leg straight with turned out foot -- but stay on a BENT knee. Don't rise up yet! Hold this position as you are gliding, then after several seconds straighten the knee.

In other words, bent knee or straight knee, you need to be strong enough to get the rest of your body in the right position. So practice that position. You can actually spin on a bent knee as well to start learning the camel spin, and when you do straighten it your speed will increase due to the increase in tension.

[sunshinepointe]

I have a wonderful LFO spiral, but I'll definitely do the bent to straight leg thing as practice - that's an awesome tip!

[Raye]

The way my coach began teaching it to me was "sweep the table, then lay down on it". This got my upper body position leaned forward low enough.

[techskater]

That's a much less graphic description than the one I was taught -- sweep the table then upper body female attributes on the table

[Mrs Redboots]

That's a much less graphic description than the one I was taught -- sweep the table then upper body female attributes on the table:lol: :lol: :lol:

[NickiT]

This is such a difficult spin. It's taken me a long time to master but it's finally getting more and more consistent. I found it hard to lower my upper body enough which meant my leg wasn't parallel to the ice, and even though that was improving before my last competition, I held back for fear of going over the toe so I still managed a lousy one. However I've really felt the difference now. The body going lower really does help keep the spin going and I've done some that had that "Wow" feel about them. On the few occasions that I've done really good ones they've felt so easy, but that's skating I guess. Oddly enough I'm now working on my change-foot camel and for some reason because I'm not thinking so much about the forward camel, it seems to be mega-consistent at the moment. Long may it stay!

Nicki

[jazzpants]

That's a much less graphic description than the one I was taught -- sweep the table then upper body female attributes on the tableTrying NOT to spit out my Tejava tea on my office keyboard...
http://www.cosgan.de/images/kao/frech/d015.gif

I don't have any suggestions on the camel spin. I've been working on this #$@$&@* spin for like, FOREVER!!! :evil: Someday in this life time, I guess. (Should have asked Chelsea Piers coach to go over this spin, actually...but was more worried about the loop jump.)

[e-skater]

Very simple exercise:

Assuming that you spin counterclockwise, practice your LFO spiral. The spiral is essesntially the position you're supposed to be in in the camel spin. Practice pushing off into a LFO spiral, and get into the perfect arabesque position -- back and head up, arms outstretched, leg straight with turned out foot -- but stay on a BENT knee. Don't rise up yet! Hold this position as you are gliding, then after several seconds straighten the knee.

In other words, bent knee or straight knee, you need to be strong enough to get the rest of your body in the right position. So practice that position. You can actually spin on a bent knee as well to start learning the camel spin, and when you do straighten it your speed will increase due to the increase in tension.

I did this same exercise while learning (and I'm still learning....) the camel. Remember to keep your head up, both in the spiral and in the camel entrance.
Easier said than done when learning, at least for me.

The other thing I notice in a camel...well, actually, there are several things I notice about mine. The better ones, the ones with more speed, occur when the entry has more L knee bend, hook, then push up with knee ONLY, not upper body.

There is a certain "tension" which makes me thing of an "L" shaped ruler--- on the L side, running down the L arm and side of the body. This probably makes no sense :?? , but I do feel this in the better camels. It's this tension which keeps me over the spinning foot, along with a strong arch which I feel from head to toe, AND kind of a diagonal pull from L shoulder to R hip/leg.

Now that I sound like a complete moron :roll: (though I can do a camel now...though upper body is still too high some of the time), I'll leave this topic alone!

[sunshinepointe]

e-skater, what you're saying makes sense - I can feel this tension when I practice off the ice. When I showed my friend at the office my "new" position she said it looked SO much nicer, elegant even. Now if it'll translate to the ice :roll:

[doubletoe]

By the way, once you succeed in getting your ribcage facing down toward the ice, you may start developing the habit a lot of us fall into: the camel dive! LOL! That's what I call it when you forget to keep your left shoulder high as you push off into the spin. If you drop the left shoulder on the entrance edge, no camel spin for you. :roll:

[e-skater]

By the way, once you succeed in getting your ribcage facing down toward the ice, you may start developing the habit a lot of us fall into: the camel dive! LOL! That's what I call it when you forget to keep your left shoulder high as you push off into the spin. If you drop the left shoulder on the entrance edge, no camel spin for you. :roll:

LOL!!! Yes, I have a VERY good "duck in" to the camel sometimes! I probably could win a "best duck" contest.... :twisted:

[*JennaD*]

ooooooooooooooh...the camel spin...well whgat my coach tells me is to swing my arms A LOT....like realyl swing your left arm (if you skate CCW) and kind of follow it through...make it hit your free leg...and keep your skating leg pretty straight...and go onto your toe pick more than you do for your other spins! hope that helps!

[vesperholly]

By the way, once you succeed in getting your ribcage facing down toward the ice, you may start developing the habit a lot of us fall into: the camel dive! LOL! That's what I call it when you forget to keep your left shoulder high as you push off into the spin. If you drop the left shoulder on the entrance edge, no camel spin for you. :roll:
Hello, my name is vesperholly, and I am a camel diver. :giveup:

I try to think of reaching my left arm towards my right foot. I also practice the camel position at the boards in between each spin.

Recently I've started doing more pilates and off-ice bum-strengthening exerciese. They seem to be helping. I do, among other things, donkey kicks, supermans, and side leg lifts.

Here's a video of a very good camel-layback (http://users.adelphia.net/~jdelmar/video/1115clb.wmv) I managed to catch.

Trust me, they do NOT look like that all the time! I wish!!! :frus:

[kayskate]

Hook, hook, hook.
Please, camel-challenged skaters, look at the Lussi video. You do not need to do a outside edge camel for the hook method to work. It is excellent for a basic forward camel (on BI edge). The hook is the secret to centering and speed. It applies to forward and back camels. It's even easier for back camels. If you are suffering from camel problems, also work the back camel, not as a combo but as an individual skill taken from a FI3 entrance. In many ways, it is easier to enter and achieve good center.

The "sweep the table" method works. Combine w/ the hook, and you have a very fast camel!

Kay

[Hannahclear]

My forward camel sucks. At BEST, it gets about three slloooooow revs and then peters into a truly lame one foot spin.

On the contrary, I can do a pretty decent back camel, usually get about four revs, not nearly as slow and I can manage a back scratch out of it. My coach says that this is very odd. :lol:

I think I may try and learn a back camel, back sit combo instead of traditional camel sit.

[sunshinepointe]

Wooooooooo we have progress!

At practice today I was like, okay, here goes nothing.

And I did a great camel spin - well, great for me at least lol - nice and fast, centered, good upper body position, about 3 revs. A friend said it looked awesome, except that I still need to work on locking out my knees. :roll: I'll take that though - at least I'm doing much better than I was.

Unfortunately after that great camel spin I wasn't able to duplicate one quite as good. But now that I understand the mechanics of the spin I should be able to work it into something somewhat decent. And to think it was just that stupid hip being closed.

Now to keep working on it - I'm going to post a video soon hopefully so you can rip my camel to shreds. :twisted:

[stardust skies]

Your knee and your arm need to work together...so your knee needs to straighten at exactly the same time and pace as your arm is snapping around, or it won't work. Also, look at your left hand as you hook the camel, it'll keep you from dipping forward.

You also need to step (after the three turn) more in front of you than you would in upright spins...in upright spins you step sideways a little, but for the camel it's more in front of you, that'll help you hook it. And make sure you're not snapping your arm around or straighten your knee too quickly, it should almost feel like slow motion compared to the entrance to other spins. You gotta hold that forward edge for a little bit before snapping.

[doubletoe]

Hey, thanks to this thread, MY camel just got better today, too, LOL!
Telling myself "high sweep" as I pushed off onto the entrance edge reminded me to keep my leading shoulder high and keep it high as I swept the arm around in an arc. Always good to be reminded of these things! ;)

[Mrs Redboots]

It must be reading this thread, but last night I actually dreamt I tried a camel spin - sweep the table, boobs on the table - and it worked! Only snag was that my free leg didn't go high enough.... and because it was a dream, I was bare-footed on the ice!

Don't suppose I could do one in reality, with or without my skates!

[jazzpants]

My forward camel sucks. At BEST, it gets about three slloooooow revs and then peters into a truly lame one foot spin.Count your blessings!!! That's what I got on a GOOD day!!! :twisted: (And I did get one of those yesterday too, except the one foot spin coming out of it wasn't too bad!!!) :mrgreen:

I'm gonna try the "boobs on the table" idea tonight and see what happens! (Especially since I don't have much...ummm... boobs... :oops: I'll probably have to learn to lower my torso a bit more...)

[sunshinepointe]

Lol @ boobs on the table.

Well if my thread has inspired at least a couple of people to improve their camels then woohoo! I'm going to try to work on mine a little more tomorrow - maybe even a video??! :twisted:

[jazzpants]

OMG!!! I had a lesson today and I showed my primary coach a camel... and then he said to try for a camel-sit and I GOT IT on the second try!!!! And then he asked me to try it again a third time and the third try was better than the second try!!! OMG!!! 8O

There is a God at my rink today! There is a God!!! :bow: :bow: :bow:

(And if you want to know what made the difference, think pressing on the baby toe when you come up to a spiral position and stay pressing on that baby toe thru the spin...) :mrgreen:

[techskater]

Congratulations!

[Mrs Redboots]

OMG!!! I had a lesson today and I showed my primary coach a camel... and then he said to try for a camel-sit and I GOT IT on the second try!!!! And then he asked me to try it again a third time and the third try was better than the second try!!! OMG!!! 8O Wow - well done, Jazzpants!

I did amuse myself by having a (rather half-hearted, I must admit) go at a camel spin today, after my dream - managed 1 revolution, rather to my surprise! Well, maybe 3/4 revolution is more accurate..... who knows, maybe there'll be a spin I can do?

[icecatepairs]

Camel spins are my favorite spin...and untill just recently it was the way i got into the layback. but now there is not enough time in the music to do that into a layback with a catch pull up overhead thing (tecnical name?...i call it the my back hurts spin!!!) and it actually puts my leg in the wrong position in the layback to catch the spin. I learned my camel spin technique from a russian coach (sergey Tartakov) i can say that he is responsible for a lot of my spin technique. i find that some of the things i do seem unorthodox at first, but when i have shared them with friends and most recently my partner , 2salcow, they had their doubts at first but adapted some of the techniques later. so heres a list of things that i have picked up from sergey as well as various other coaches that have worked for me.


the slower entry usually leadds to a faster spin. because i spin fast most people think i "pop up" out of my knee fast. on the contrary i go around at least 2X in a bent knee position before i pop up. if the entrance is a little off or it doesnt feel right i do more. to save or reset a spin even mid combo or mid program, i bed the leg i am spinning on to regain control. then i can come back up again if i want.


on the entrance...i am strictly same arm same leg style. i was taught to keep my entrance arm exactly lined up with the imaginary extension of my entrance blade. my back arm and leg are exactly lined up with each other from the cross over . thats the key thing for me. if that arm crosses the line of that blade at all it is evident in the quality of the spin.

to gain speed during the spin i was told to extend my arms and legs away from the sockets. also to squeeze my back leg toward my entrance arm.

other things to note.....


heres a few basics i was reminded of from my pairs coach and 2 salcow as i am trying to master this spin on my opposite leg...(tim's direction)

if you thnk you are flat and low on the enrtance and the spin is not working...you are probably still too up right.

if you think you are waiting long enough on the entrance curve...wait longer.


when in doubt slow down the entrance...a bit...re group then try to speed up the process. when we are going fast and make mistakes we don't know what ehy are...slower we can really feel it. learning it on my opposite side i have to go slow in the entrance to avoid popping it.


well i hope that was somewhat useful. i don't know how to post video, but i think my pairs coach might. i will try to see if i can. i have been told that my methods are not common, but the end resuts are not bad for an adult skater. good luck...long live camel spins!