Pattern 99's For FS 3

[skippyjoy_207]

Has anyone ever gotten blades past their level? How'd it go? I want to get Pattern 99's for FS 3, but I'm not sure if they'll slow me down, or allow me to progress faster. Any comments on this?

[figure_skater]

:frus: yup! i got club 2000s back when i was in delta (they r good like up until your axel) and they helped me move up ALOT faster then i think i would have if i got a lower level kind.......... i think it only helps though if its not Too far past ur level at the time u get them......... but i then needed new blades at freestyle 4....... so those blades arent that good..... :roll: :cry: :??

im just saying that its good to get blades that are slightly advanced for your level....... :giveup:

[stardust skies]

It is important to note, however, that Club 2000 blades are absolute beginner blades meant to be worn by people who barely know how to do a three turn, all the way through most of the single jumps. People find it's best to switch out of Club 2000's and into MK pro's or Coronation Aces after they've worked on the flip and lutz for a while.

Pattern 99's are the second highest level blade you can get. While Club 2000 is the second lowest level blade you can get. Club 2000's are actually very appropriate for Delta. Pattern 99's are not that great for FS 3. Two main reasons: number one, the toe pick: it's straight cut rather than criss-crossed, and it has one precise top pick for spot-on toe jumps. Most people learning basics and single jumps will not be able to hit that top toe pick, and will not get the necessary grab out of straight cut teeth. For this, the criss cross teeth and more uniform toe pick of the Mk Pros or Coronation Aces are much better.

Also, the rocker on Pattern 99's is much flatter. This means a faster blade, but it also means it's much, much harder to center spins and to get them fast if you haven't been doing really good spins for a long time before switching over.

The thing with all this talk about blades above your level is this: it wastes your money. You think it'll take you all the way through to when you actually reach that level, but that's not true. By the time you're ready, the rocker will have flattened, the blades might have rusted, you will need new boots, etc. So why bother? You WILL need to switch them before you drastically need new blades anyway. On top of this, advanced blades are advanced for a reason. While I'm sure that SOME people do great in blades above their levels, they can't really compare because they don't know if they wouldn't have done just as well in lower level blades. Blades are essential, but at the end of the day, it's your technique that matters. If you don't have advanced technique, your advanced blades won't make your technique advanced. It might feel cool to wear advanced blades, but advanced skaters don't look at the brand of blades you are wearing, they look at your skating. If you buy "cool" blades and end up not centering your spins or missing your toepicks, it'll make you look more like a beginner than having a beginner blade ever could.

Truth is, better to stick around in blades below your level longer than you need than be in blades above your level before you need them. Otherwise, you have nothing to graduate to. Be technique dependant, not blade dependant!

[skaternum]

I agree with stardust. "Too much blade" is a waste of money, and speaks more to vanity than good skating. And big toepicks and big rockers can make learning some of the lower level skills more difficult than they should be.

[Casey]

Oooh stardust, this detail is exactly what I was looking for in the other thread - wish I'd seen it first! Feel free to ignore me there :P

What do you think of Coronation Comets? Those are essentially the same as Aces with an 8' rocker, yes?

The 8' rocker is both tempting and scary. I want the faster speed and additional stability, but surely don't need any more difficulty on spins right now...

[slusher]

Freeskate coach guy has pattern 99's and is still doing triples. When I was getting a lesson on the flip recently we had discussion about the big top pick on the 99's. When he stretches back to pick, that big pick works great for him because he's down low enough that it works. When I try to stretch that far, I need a stretcher. So, there's no chance that I'll need pattern 99's any time soon, my jumping style would never suit that blade. I'm on a MK something blade, will probably get Aces next.

[SkateBreck]

Casey,

The Comet is an 8 1/2 inch rocker - the most you can get. It also has a straight cut toe pick which seems to not be recommended by some - my fitter in particular. However, I skate on them and have no trouble - but it might make more sense to go with the Ace in a more standard 8 inch and criss cross blade pattern. I am a Silver Level skater and am considering upgrading as I start doubles. If I ever decide on any 7 inch blades it would be a huge change! I think I'll look to 8 inch.

[coskater64]

Are you talking about the radius ...? A silver skater usually works on axels and doubles, w/ good edge quality and solid centered spins and some flying spins. Most blades are an 8' foot radius not 8 1/2" rocker and rockers on blades are not placed at 8 1/2 inches.

Buying too much of a blade can hurt you. I use a pattern 99 k pick and it took me a while to grow into it. If you don't have solid edge quality and good form you will suffer and the blade will move right along and without you. I recommend the blade highly for skaters who are on their intermediate and novice moves w/ double jumps and especially good posture and really solid power.

So if you are fs 3, that is lower than pre pre USFSA standard track. The pattern 99 is tooooo much for you the classic blade would be the cornation ace you should contemplate the 99's while on the adult gold moves, or the intermediate.

la

[Casey]

Oh wow, you're right, Comets do have an 8.5' rocker. That's crazy! Can you spin on them? How long have you been skating?

Aces (both Coronation Aces and Four Aces) have a 7' rocker though, not an 8'.

[stardust skies]

Oooh stardust, this detail is exactly what I was looking for in the other thread - wish I'd seen it first! Feel free to ignore me there :P

What do you think of Coronation Comets? Those are essentially the same as Aces with an 8' rocker, yes?

The 8' rocker is both tempting and scary. I want the faster speed and additional stability, but surely don't need any more difficulty on spins right now...

Hi Casey- Yeah I saw that thread when I was replying to this one, but you asked skaternum the questions and not me, even though skaternum hadn't posted in that thread, so I wasn't SURE you were addressing me, and rather than assuming, I figured my tirade would be good here too. :P

As far as the question of "how do I know the Gold Seals aren't better if I have never tried them", I guess it's because I am very happy with my technique right now, and whatever I'm NOT happy with, I know what needs to be fixed, and it is one hundred percent me. Might I be faster with Gold Seals? Might I have cleaner edges? It is possible- I wouldn't know. But I LOVE my blades, I feel like they definitely don't hinder me, and whatever I could gain out of higher level blades, I could also gain from working harder. I just feel that TOP END blades are for when you are a top end skater, and I've got another level and many competitions to go before I have a chance to call myself one. I want something to graduate to if and when I reach the top. If I've been in Gold Seal for five years before I get there, I won't even feel the benefits of them because I'll have learned half of my technique in them. I also don't want to rely on a better blade to give me better control or better edges, I wanna do it myself and THEN get the better blades, maybe- see if I like the changes. But at the end of the day, I don't really see myself ever switching out of Pattern 99's. They work for me. And if something ain't broke, I'm not going to try and fix it. I'm just sayin'....the most expensive or highest end thing might not be the best one for everybody, EVEN if it were level appropriate.

It's like pants...you wanna get the smaller size first to see if it fits you and THEN gradually get bigger sizes. Otherwise...you grab a big size, and it fits you ok, but you don't realize that the smaller pair would've fit you better, and hey, you could've realized you were a size 6 instead of an 8. Same with skating classes. You start in the most basic class. If you're too advanced, they move you up. They don't start you in the top class and move you down if you can't keep up. It's just....building up to things, in my opinion. Okay, it's late, and I could ramble on about this particular topic for DAYS. I'm stopping right now. :halo:

Oh, as a final note though- I wouldn't get the Comets- WAY TOO FLAT. I am a naturally good spinner (much better than jumper, which definitely doesn't come naturally...) and had really, really solid spins before going into the 8 inch rocker of Pattern 99's. I feel that you would benefit from the 7 inch rocker of the MK pros. or the Coronation Aces. I believe you would see an improvement in your spins immediately. I was on a 7 inch rocker for years and years before moving on, and I mainly did so because at the time I really had an issue with curving too much in my footwork and checking out of my jumps on a curve instead of straight...it helped me out there. I wouldn't really consider an 8 inch rocker for someone doing single jumps (ie: not needing THAT much speed) unless they were amazing spinners to begin with and had some sort of issue with too much curvature in their skating (which really just means you're not checking enough, as I eventually figured out). It's also to be noted that the MK pros. have a toepick similar to the Gold Stars which you are already on. The Pattern 99 toepick would probably be a nuisance to you, esp. since you have issues with your flip. Good luck making the decisions, everybody!

...Why do I so enjoy talking about blades?! I have a problem.

[dbny]

Sorry, I just can't stand it, so here is my spiel about radius vs rocker once again, copied right out of my previous post:

Radius can refer to the radius of hollow, which is the size of the groove (hollow) between the edges running the length of the blade. It is measured as the radius of the circle that the hollow is a part of. Picture a penny balanced on the bottom of your blade. If it fits perfectly into the hollow, then the radius of hollow is the same as the radius of the penny. This feature is usually referred to simply as the hollow, so as not to get confused with the radius of the rocker. A deeper hollow (1/4" for example) increases the ability to hold a deep edge, but also makes turning more difficult. A shallower hollow such as 5/8" makes turning easier, but holding deep edges more difficult.

Rocker refers to the curvature of the bottom of the blade, and is also measured as the radius of a circle. Imagine placing your blade (without the toe and heel plates) flat on a circle with a radius of 8 feet. If it fits perfectly on that circle, then that is the rocker of the blade. A smaller rocker means that the blade is curved more and less of it is contact with the ice as you skate.

When you see the term "radius" with a measurement in fractions of an inch (for example 1/2" or 3/8"), then you know it is referring to the hollow. When you see mention of a radius measured in feet, such as 7' or 8', then you know that it refers to the rocker of the blade.

[flo]

Hi,
I loved the Comets and kept them for quite a while. From them I went to Phantoms. No problems on the spinning (from the blade that is).

[SkateBreck]

I have been skating as an adult for 4 years but also skated as a child. Spinning is not as strong as my jumping, but I don't think it has much to do with the blade and more to do with my technique. My childhood coach focused more on my jumping - therefore I am MUCH better at that. Who knows the 7's might help, but I think I will play it safe and go to 8's after these. I am FAST, my friend just realized I skated on 8 1/2 inch rockers and said. "ahhh, now I know your secret to fast skating".

[SkateBreck]

Woops, meant 7 for the Ace's - sorry.

[Casey]

I feel that you would benefit from the 7 inch radius of the MK pros. or the Coronation Aces. I believe you would see an improvement in your spins immediately.
How's that? I have a 7' rocker now...

The Pattern 99 toepick would probably be a nuisance to you, esp. since you have issues with your flip.
Actually it's the loop that's the most bothersome. The flip has shaped up nicely, and the only thing I'm doing stupidly on both the toe loop and the flip now is not getting the picking leg straight and instead jumping badly-formed jumps because of a bent knee. I don't know why I started doing this - I never used to...but it's a REALLY hard habit to shake.

[singerskates]

I don't know. When I was in a MK5 that came with my Jacksons, I coudn't spin at all. Then I changed to Corination Comets and picked up the waltz jump. Ooo! When I changed boot because the Jacksons did not fit me properly, I had to buy blades because the Comets were longer than my Graf Edmonton Specials. I ended up buying Pattern 99's because of what my then coach wanted me to have.

To the Pattern 99's credit, I had no trouble skating in them even though the toe pick was much bigger than the Comet's. I also was able to get more control in my skating. I also got my spins with the Pattern 99. The only problem I have is on the back spin but that's just because of the boot being so warped that I had to have shimmies put between the boot and the blade to try to correct the problem. I still have to make more adjustments. Boy, if I win some cash from one of the lotteries I am playing, I'll be buying new boots but not without taking my friend Vern Taylor with me to the pro shop. I'm not getting stuck with warped, badly made boots again. When I last left the ice, I had jumps upto a two footed lutz, an almost counting backspin, a camel, sit, sit into back catch foot spin, catch foot spin, sit to broken sit. Most of my spins were centered with up to 8 to 10 revs except the camel two and half and back spin. The camel is a very new spin for me. I had only worked on it 4 sesssions. So what I'm saying is that for some the Pattern 99 can be a good thing and for others, not. I might be one of the few that the Pattern 99 helps. Talk to your coach and see what they recommend.

Brigitte.

I can't wait to be healthy and back on the ice. :cry:

[stardust skies]

Sorry, I just can't stand it, so here is my spiel about radius vs rocker once again, copied right out of my previous post:

Radius can refer to the radius of hollow, which is the size of the groove (hollow) between the edges running the length of the blade. It is measured as the radius of the circle that the hollow is a part of. Picture a penny balanced on the bottom of your blade. If it fits perfectly into the hollow, then the radius of hollow is the same as the radius of the penny. This feature is usually referred to simply as the hollow, so as not to get confused with the radius of the rocker. A deeper hollow (1/4" for example) increases the ability to hold a deep edge, but also makes turning more difficult. A shallower hollow such as 5/8" makes turning easier, but holding deep edges more difficult.

Rocker refers to the curvature of the bottom of the blade, and is also measured as the radius of a circle. Imagine placing your blade (without the toe and heel plates) flat on a circle with a radius of 8 feet. If it fits perfectly on that circle, then that is the rocker of the blade. A smaller rocker means that the blade is curved more and less of it is contact with the ice as you skate.

When you see the term "radius" with a measurement in fractions of an inch (for example 1/2" or 3/8"), then you know it is referring to the hollow. When you see mention of a radius measured in feet, such as 7' or 8', then you know that it refers to the rocker of the blade.

I edited my post to reflect this correction. The sad part is that I know the difference between a radius and a rocker, and I have no idea why I typed radius all these times. It was late. Thanks for the post though, it is corrected. :D

[stardust skies]

How's that? I have a 7' rocker now...


Actually it's the loop that's the most bothersome. The flip has shaped up nicely, and the only thing I'm doing stupidly on both the toe loop and the flip now is not getting the picking leg straight and instead jumping badly-formed jumps because of a bent knee. I don't know why I started doing this - I never used to...but it's a REALLY hard habit to shake.

I thought you said you had an 8 inch rocker...my bad. Well, if you have spin issues with a 7 inch, then you DEFINITELY don't wanna get anything flatter. You want to get really good at spins with the rocker you have now. Also, the problem with your toe jumps that you mention is exactly why Pattern 99's wouldn't work for you- what you are doing is exactly what would cause you to miss the toepick. I still think you would do great in MK pros. I stand by what I say, but I know you will never get them. :P

[stardust skies]

I don't know. When I was in a MK5 that came with my Jacksons, I coudn't spin at all. Then I changed to Corination Comets and picked up the waltz jump. Ooo! When I changed boot because the Jacksons did not fit me properly, I had to buy blades because the Comets were longer than my Graf Edmonton Specials. I ended up buying Pattern 99's because of what my then coach wanted me to have.

To the Pattern 99's credit, I had no trouble skating in them even though the toe pick was much bigger than the Comet's. I also was able to get more control in my skating. I also got my spins with the Pattern 99. The only problem I have is on the back spin but that's just because of the boot being so warped that I had to have shimmies put between the boot and the blade to try to correct the problem. I still have to make more adjustments. Boy, if I win some cash from one of the lotteries I am playing, I'll be buying new boots but not without taking my friend Vern Taylor with me to the pro shop. I'm not getting stuck with warped, badly made boots again. When I last left the ice, I had jumps upto a two footed lutz, an almost counting backspin, a camel, sit, sit into back catch foot spin, catch foot spin, sit to broken sit. Most of my spins were centered with up to 8 to 10 revs except the camel two and half and back spin. The camel is a very new spin for me. I had only worked on it 4 sesssions. So what I'm saying is that for some the Pattern 99 can be a good thing and for others, not. I might be one of the few that the Pattern 99 helps. Talk to your coach and see what they recommend.

Brigitte.

I can't wait to be healthy and back on the ice. :cry:

Coronation Comets have an 8 1/2 rocker. ANYTHING you would have bought would have helped your spins in comparison to the Comets. Since the Pattern 99's are half an inch curvier, of course they helped your spins. But if you had gotten Coronation Aces or Mk Pros, with their 7 inch rocker, you would have probably gotten helped even more, because they are even curvier. The curvier the blade, the easier it is to spin. So in this logic, it's normal for Pattern 99's to have felt like they helped in comparison to the Comets. Does not, however, mean that they were the best blades to learn spins on. Just that they were better than the even worst blade you picked before. ;)

[icedancer2]

I still think you would do great in MK pros. I stand by what I say, but I know you will never get them. :P

I agree totally with stardust on this one -- don't buy too much blade -- the Coronation Ace or MK Pros are PERFECT for your level!!

This thread has really got me thikning about the whole blade issue and trying to figure out how much of the difference in blades is just a matter of marketing -- like when a lot of people say, "I got such-and such a jump" in this blade, and then I switched to this blade and then I got my axel -- well, wouldn't you have improved by just practicing more and gotten your axel anyway?

I keep thinking about the "old days" when I was a kid, and there weren't that many blades. I remember Coronation Ace and Gold Seal, but not a lot in between. Most of the people (kids) I skated with had Coronation Ace and most of those people were able to progress through all of their jumps and on up to doubles without changing blades. That's just the way it was.

Same with boots. The boots were not nearly as stiff as they are now, and people still were doing all of their jumps and doubles and sometimes triples, and the boots were all just soft... --

I think it's greatly a matter of technique, like stardust as emphasized, and like I always say,

Practice, practice, practice.

[Skate@Delaware]

I have the Comets. I got them on the advice of my coach. They were the upgrade from the Jackson Mirage.

I had been just learning the scratch spin in the Mirage. I switched blades towards the end of the season. The biggest difference was the lack of effort it took to glide. Think "hot knife through butter." This meant that stroking and edges went from mediocre to awesome. My spins went from awful to awful-so nothing changed there. Hey, bad is bad!

I can't comment on jumps because my landing blade wasn't mounted right and that was a losing battle, as the rink closed for the season and it just got fixed 2 weeks ago.... :giveup: (the blade, not the rink)

I will say that the few really good spins I did on the Comets were totally awesome!!! I'm talking revolutions so fast, I got scared! Where before, I was squeaking out 3-4 revolutions on the Mirage blades, the Comets gave me on average, 10. I've been very happy with them! I've been skating for 1.5 years....

[Casey]

Also, the problem with your toe jumps that you mention is exactly why Pattern 99's wouldn't work for you- what you are doing is exactly what would cause you to miss the toepick. I still think you would do great in MK pros. I stand by what I say, but I know you will never get them. :P
How do you presume to know I won't get them? Honestly, Coronation Aces are seeming a more and more attractive option the more I hear about them. I'd probably pick the Four Aces over the Coronation Aces though, but that's just because I like the straight-cut toepick more - they're otherwise the same blade AFAIK. Yeah, there's still temptation to get Pattern 99s instead, and since I have a little time before I'll have the money to buy them anyways, I'll probably reserve final judgement until after hearing rf3ray's opinion on the gold seals before discounting them entirely.

One thing I know for certain, investment in training and effort outweighs investment in *ANY* blades.

And hey, if I missed my toepick and had a few falls to teach me a lesson then maybe it would convince me to break the stupid habit. I just don't understand why I'm doing it - I never did before - I think it's related to being paranoid about the condition of my skates affecting my skating.

[aussieskater]

OK, I'm a beginner (and brought up in the metric system, so feet and inches doesn't have a whole lot of meaning for me), but now I'm confused. dbny posted an explanation of rocker and hollow (and feet vs inches) which I may have misunderstood, because stardust skies says s/he edited the post to reflect the correction but the post and later posts are still referring to 7 inch, 8 inch, and 8 and a half inch rockers(?). Is there a part of the blade (apart from the length from toe to heel) which would be measured in these dimensions?

On another (related) subject - several of the posters have referred to the rocker being ground down (presumably by many sharpenings). On average, how many sharpenings can you expect from a blade? (*Enables aussieskater to do basic maths to work out how long her blades are likely to last...*)

[aussieskater]

I have the Comets. I got them on the advice of my coach. They were the upgrade from the Jackson Mirage.
Mirages are what I'm on. What level were you on when you changed, and what made you change? (Not that I'm anticipating a change any time soon - I suspect I need to get a whole lot better before I go up in blades!)

[Cactus Bill]

OK, I'm a beginner (and brought up in the metric system, so feet and inches doesn't have a whole lot of meaning for me), but now I'm confused. dbny posted an explanation of rocker and hollow (and feet vs inches) which I may have misunderstood, because stardust skies says s/he edited the post to reflect the correction but the post and later posts are still referring to 7 inch, 8 inch, and 8 and a half inch rockers(?). Is there a part of the blade (apart from the length from toe to heel) which would be measured in these dimensions?

It should read 7, 8 and 8 and a half FEET. Not inches. A foot is a little less than a third of a metre (30.48 cm)


On another (related) subject - several of the posters have referred to the rocker being ground down (presumably by many sharpenings). On average, how many sharpenings can you expect from a blade? (*Enables aussieskater to do basic maths to work out how long her blades are likely to last...*)

I've heard that with careful sharpening a good pair of blades can last up to 100 sharpenings. Maybe more. Check the sticky at the top of the thread list to find a link to a very informative article on sharpening. :)

[singerskates]

Coronation Comets have an 8 1/2 rocker. ANYTHING you would have bought would have helped your spins in comparison to the Comets. Since the Pattern 99's are half an inch curvier, of course they helped your spins. But if you had gotten Coronation Aces or Mk Pros, with their 7 inch rocker, you would have probably gotten helped even more, because they are even curvier. The curvier the blade, the easier it is to spin. So in this logic, it's normal for Pattern 99's to have felt like they helped in comparison to the Comets. Does not, however, mean that they were the best blades to learn spins on. Just that they were better than the even worst blade you picked before. ;)


the MK 5's were making me rock all over the place just too much of a rocker for me. That's part of the reason I went with the Comet. The other is that's what my the coach at the time wanted me to have. Before you say anything, I changed coaches before moving to the Pattern 99. I'm thinking the next time I change blades, I will go with an Ultima blade; maybe Elite Blade - UB105 which are simular to the Pattern 99's but cheaper in price.

Brigitte

[stardust skies]

How do you presume to know I won't get them? Honestly, Coronation Aces are seeming a more and more attractive option the more I hear about them. I'd probably pick the Four Aces over the Coronation Aces though, but that's just because I like the straight-cut toepick more - they're otherwise the same blade AFAIK. Yeah, there's still temptation to get Pattern 99s instead, and since I have a little time before I'll have the money to buy them anyways, I'll probably reserve final judgement until after hearing rf3ray's opinion on the gold seals before discounting them entirely.

One thing I know for certain, investment in training and effort outweighs investment in *ANY* blades.

And hey, if I missed my toepick and had a few falls to teach me a lesson then maybe it would convince me to break the stupid habit. I just don't understand why I'm doing it - I never did before - I think it's related to being paranoid about the condition of my skates affecting my skating.

Honestly, Casey- I like you a lot, and I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but if what happened to you with your previous purchase didn't change your ways- nothing will, so my posts to you on this particular matter are a complete waste of time, I finally realize. You came on here before you bought anything the first time around, asked our advice, everyone uninamously said that you were buying too much blade (some of us also really tried to talk you out of the Grafs) and now you've got a boot that is separating at the heel even though you're only doing single jumps (that should seriously never happen, and certainly not so soon) and super expensive high-end blades that are as good as thrown in the garbage because it's going to be nearly impossible to sell them considering the size and the fact that there's not a big demand for the Gold star to begin with...so you just wasted a TON of money and time, which I honestly think you wouldn't have if you'd listened to us and got a different brand of boot and a cheaper blade.

I don't presume that you won't ever get your jumps with Pattern 99's. I mean, eventually, you'll hit the toepick. Eventually. If you want to spend a year working on flips (or loops, or whatever else..) instead of 2 months and want to give up more coaching lessons because you WANT To spend an extra 200 bucks because Pattern 99's are cooler and you feel like they are worth you trying to work against your blade, then...do it. But if you ask for advice, I'm not going to avoid telling you that you are contiously digging a bigger and bigger hole around your skating, rather than looking at the situation smartly and reasonably, and paving a path that makes sense to help your progress.

The worst news of it all is that you have a friend who is at a lower level than you are and who is actually going to buy a more advanced blade than you have. So long as you guys talk each other up into buying this stuff, nothing anyone can tell you on here will dissuade either of you. And neither of you are making good decisions about your skating equipment.

I don't even know how someone working on singles would get it in their head that they should consider Gold Seals or Gold Stars. I don't understand this thought process. Never will. But have fun with it, I will step out of this particular blade debate with the two of you, because it feels like hitting my head on a brick wall. :frus: At the end of the day, I know my (or anyone else who agrees with me) opinion is not the be all and end all, and you're free to do whatever you feel is best for you. It just sucks to see you go through all this money, time and frustration, to see it coming again, and not to be able to say anything that stops you. Or your friend, apparently. Oh well.

PS: Yes, my post about rockers should read in feet and not inches. I'm metric-ally retarded, I apologize for the confusion!!!! I'm too lazy to change it right now though. :giveup:

[Casey]

my posts to you on this particular matter are a complete waste of time, I finally realize.
No, they are NOT!!! Your words mean a great deal to me. *sigh* I think you are taking it the wrong way that I want as complete and well-rounded of an opinion as possible before making any decisions, because everybody has a different opinion on things and it's sooo hard to figure out the best way forward. I've told you, and was quite honest when I did, than your opinion meant more than most. That being said, I do want to understand where you're coming from - this is NOT meant as any insult to you, as I said in the other thread.

You came on here before you bought anything the first time around, asked our advice, everyone uninamously said that you were buying too much blade (some of us also really tried to talk you out of the Grafs)
Yes, I asked here mere hours before placing the order based on my fitter's recommendations. I did not get any response until after the order had been placed, and then I didn't want to create additional trouble for the fitter by telling him he was wrong or whatever - I did call and asked him about the fit just like I said I did, and he reassured me that everything was perfect and fine, and that both my boot and blade choice was good for me. In retrospect, I know he was wrong, but at the time, he was the highest-level skater I had ever even *seen*, let alone talked to. I did not yet know your background, or the experience of anybody else on this board. So I trusted his judgement. Yes, a bad mistake. I regret it sincerely, isn't that enough?

I don't presume that you won't ever get your jumps with Pattern 99's. I mean, eventually, you'll hit the toepick.
My comment about missing the toepick teeaching me a lesson to do the jumps right was sarcasm. *sigh*

because Pattern 99's are cooler and you feel like they are worth you trying to work against your blade, then...do it.
For the record, I was not thinking very seriously about the pattern 99 blades until you recommended them (on the 29th of last month):
I think the Pattern 99's would help you because you have problems with cheating the flips you said, and with the loop. It has a small toepick, but it has a precise top pick that doesn't really let you "slip" or miss, and thus makes cheating jumps harder to do. The rocker size is really good, although it WILL be harder to spin in at first because it's flatter. But once you figure it out, it pretty much spins for you.
I said, quite honestly, in my last post, that I am most seriously considering Four Aces or Coronation Aces blades at this point. I'm just a bit thrown off because you're recommending something one day and disrecommending them the next, or else I'm misunderstanding something.

The worst news of it all is that you have a friend who is at a lower level than you are and who is actually going to buy a more advanced blade than you have. So long as you guys talk each other up into buying this stuff, nothing anyone can tell you on here will dissuade either of you. And neither of you are making good decisions about your skating equipment.
I'm assuming you mean rf3ray. Yes, I've talked to him about his blade decision. I've told him I think the gold seals are ridiculous for his level, simple as that, but that if he does get them, I want to hear his experiences. Is that wrong? To want to know how a blade works out for somebody at the same skating level? I also told him that your opinion meant quite a lot to me, so please don't assume that I'm just ignoring you or not heeding your advice. I also told him in our last conversation earlier tonight that my next blades would probably be Four Aces, and moreover, I've said all along that I don't understand why he wants to change blades when he doesn't have to - the only reason I'm considering different blades is because I have to buy new blades to fit new boots. He has also talked to a number of high-level skaters at his rink, and based his decision mostly on their input. You can ask him to verify all of this if you want.

Yeah, I guess I haven't been listening at all.

You say you don't understand what was goes through our heads, well I can tell you exactly what goes through mine. When I bought my Graf Edmonton Specials and Gold Stars, I had the money in the bank to buy pretty much any skates I wanted. I bought what I was led to believe would last me many years to come without replacement, and would take me through double jumps if I could ever manage to learn them. I bought them specifically because I did not want to be in the predicament I'm in now, where my monthly income would barely afford a pair of skates even if I didn't have any expenses. I was royally f***ed over. It doesn't make me happy, and I'm quite depressed about it as it is.

What is going through my head now is pretty much the same thing, and it's why I've decided on getting custom Klingbeils this time around.

However I've also realized that the boot is by far the most important part, blades come secondary. Blades can be changed easier, and do not require custom fitting for a good fit, etc. Assuming I have a boot that's properly fitted, even if I change blades and don't like the new ones, I can change back easily. Gold Seals are almost certainly not what I'll end up with as my next blade, both because I feel they're unnecessary and because I cannot afford them. That being said, I do want to hear the experiences of others with all different blades, so that I can feel more confident in whatever decision I do end up making.

I really don't understand your reaction here, at all, and I don't really know what to think of it. :giveup:

[vesperholly]

I upgraded from Coronation Ace to Gold Seals when I was working on axels, double sals, and Intermediate moves. I had Aces initially because among other reasons, I was still doing figures at the time and they were considered OK for the first few tests until you needed to get figure blades. I had a few reasons for getting Gold Seals:

1. I wanted more blade than Aces, but had heard a lot of bad things about the Comet. Other "next step" blades all seemed very freestyle oriented and I am not.

2. I wanted a blade that was also good for moves and dance, not just jumping.

3. I wanted a strong blade that could take a lot of pounding since I am, er, not thin.

The Gold Seals fit all the characteristics. I liked the flat plate on the front because my Aces sank into the soles of my boots and I think it might have compromised the boot strength. I was also happy to stay with Wilson blades since I liked my Aces.

I do think that at the time that I bought them, they were probably more blade than I needed. I feel a little more justified now that I'm on Junior moves and Silver dances, but certainly my freestyle doesn't deserve them. :)

I do wish I knew more about blades. Looking at the sites with the stats on each blade - 5/16" hollow vs 7/16", 7' 8' and 8.5' rockers, what does it all mean? How truly incremental or fundamental are the differences in blades to a person's skating? *shrug* I really believe that good technique trumps all obstacles, though, and good technique can be developed no matter what blade you have, be it too "little" or too "much" for your present abilities.

[slusher]

the MK 5's were making me rock all over the place just too much of a rocker for me.
Brigitte

Yeah, that's what I have, MK 5's. What's the rocker on them? I really like rocker-ish skates, I get a better roll to the toe off them, however, when I first got them, I thought I was going to die. My old blades were so worn out they had practically no rocker left and were "flat". It was a huge shock, and next time I'll change blades before they get too worn down.

I'm thinking that your blades are OK, but what are you doing in Edmonton specials when it sounds like you're a beginner getting your single jumps. My coach wears specials and I wouldn't touch them as there's no flex.

[blue111moon]

The "too much" blade debate amuses me. As a beginning skater many years ago, I started in Sears Specials - they were leather and had blades on them but I might have just as well strapped kitchen knives on a pair of snaekers for all the support they gave me. Still, I learned edges, basic spins, bunny hops and waltz jumps in them. It wasn't until I started private lessons (and had to do PATCH figures) that I thought about upgrading to REAL boots and blades.

The first freestyle skates I bought were Oberhamers - Silver. They were new, but because I needed patch boots as well - and the Sear skates were trashed - the pro shop guy found a pair of used (broken down) boots for me to put patch blades on. I don't remember what they were but they lasted me for several years until the Oberhamers broke down. I don't remember what blade was on the Oberhamers first. When I replaced them for freestyle with Reidell Silvers, I put a Silver test patch blade on the Oberhamers and got through my First figure test on them.

But the pro shop didn't have a lot of blades to choose from and I was the first adult beginner that the guy had fitted. He pulled a pair of blades off the shelf that were the right size and slapped them on the boot with no explanation other than "these have a bigger pick than what you had but you'll get used to it." I didn't know there were different levels of blades so I just went along. My first freestyle blade: Phantoms.

Way too much blade, the experts say now. But it worked for me. I wore Phantoms for 16 years, learned singles on them and never thought it strange. I'm such a slow learner to begin with; maybe I would have learned faster on a lesser blade but who knows?

Three or four years ago, I needed new boots and went up half a size thanks to age, spreading feet and surgery and the Phantoms were too small for the new boot. So I bought new Phantoms because they were what I knew. But the Phantoms had been redesigned (as had Reidell's boots but that's another story) and now they WERE too much blade for my level of skating. I nearly killed myself on them. New Pro shop recommended Pattern 99's - tried them for a week and could do NOTHING in them. Pro shop guy kindly took them back and recomended the Vision (Vantage? - I don't know - it has a V inscribed on the back). Presto! I could skate again! I'm happy with them, even though once again, I know nothing about them. They work for me. But then the old Phantoms worked for me too. *shrug*

Anyway, that's my experience. Looking back, if i'd known then what I know now about Phantoms, I probably wouldn't have picked them as my first blade. But I can't say I regret it because I can't know what I would have done on a different blade and I'm pretty happy with what I've done anyway.

[dbny]

I do wish I knew more about blades. Looking at the sites with the stats on each blade - 5/16" hollow vs 7/16", 7' 8' and 8.5' rockers, what does it all mean? How truly incremental or fundamental are the differences in blades to a person's skating? *shrug* I really believe that good technique trumps all obstacles, though, and good technique can be developed no matter what blade you have, be it too "little" or too "much" for your present abilities.

The hollow can be changed at any sharpening without damaging the blade and is a very personal thing. Deeper hollows make deeper edges easier but turns more difficult. I could feel the difference when I moved from 1/2" to 7/16" enough so that I knew I wouldn't be going to 3/8" like my daughter. For her, 3/8" and a switch from Aces to Gold Seals meant many more jumps successfully landed. The improvement came almost immediately.

ITA that good technique trumps all. Elite skaters can skate in anything, and I've seen them do it, but I will never skate at that level and need all the help I can get.

[jazzpants]

Hey, Casey!

You might want to read this (http://oasis.dit.upm.es/~jantonio/personal/patinaje/equip.htm#Blades) from the Technical Figure Skating by Kevin Anderson website before you consider a Patterns 99 blade... ;) He's about your height and built. (He's 6' and back then very skinny...)

I would recommend a good general purpose blade for the beginner such as Coronation Ace. You want to stay away from cheap blades such as Rinkmaster.

For advanced skaters I recommend Gold Seal. Other popular blades for advanced freestyle skaters are Phantom, Gold Star, Pattern 99, and Vantage. Although Pattern 99 is a popular blade, I dislike it and recommend against it. The main reason I can't stand it is because it stands about 1/2" to 3/4" shorter than the other blades and is flat. By "shorter" I mean the distance from the bottom of the boot to the bottom of the blade. You literally stand 1/2" to 3/4" shorter when wearing Pattern 99s. This causes a severe disadvantage in the quality and depth of edges. I've never been able to hold the same deep, long edges on a Pattern 99 than I could with a Gold Seal. I've taken some unexpected and nasty spills on Pattern 99s because of it's inability to hold a deep edge. Furthermore, because the rocker is almost non existent, they are terrible for spinning. Spinning on a 99 is like spinning in mud compared to a Gold Seal. The only advantage to a 99 is they are marginally better for jumping. If your technique is good that shouldn't make any difference anyway.

My experience with blades was that I had Wilson Excels when I first started, which took me to early singles. When I decided to get my second pair of skates (my black Riedell Bronze Star that is now sitting in the home museum... :lol: ) blade guy says "You know, since you're now working on loops and getting new boots , you might as well get yourself an upgrade on your blades too. I was steered towards initially an MK Double Star, then towards MK Pros. ("Better quality metal and it will last me thru all my doubles. MK Single Star would only last me thru my early doubles," he says...)

I'm still working on my loops after at least 4 years, but no fault of the blade. (It's all b/c I'm busy trying to get my basic skating right first!) :frus: MK Pros are very VERY good blades! It'll easily last thru two pairs of boots. (I'm not using them now, but only b/c when I got customs, Phil from Harlicks says that I need to change the blade sizes to fit my new boots.) Plus, for this particular skate guy, it's probably harder to sharpen a Pattern 99 rather than a MK Pro, therefore he charges more for it. Plus, do you really want to spend an extra $200 for a pair of blades when you'll do just fine with a cheaper blade that will last a while? ;)

[NoVa Sk8r]

While I enjoy Kevin's site, I disagree with him on the Pattern 99 assessment. It wasn't until I got these blades that I could properly do a back camel and back sit ... and I'm ~6' tall and ~180 lbs (all muscle ;) ). And surely, my spins have not suffered. I've never done better camels than in these blades. (But I realize one anecdote does not a pattern make.)

[icedancer2]

This blade-obsession thread also has captivated me -- it's all I could think of during my 2-hour skate this morning -- how do these blades feel? What do I like about them? Anyway, all good thoughts.

So, Casey, as far as speed goes, getting a flatter blade may give you more run and you may be faster, but at your level (I know, people keep saying that) it might be good for you to learn how to get speed out of ANY blade rather than relying on the blade to do it for you. It would be really good for your skating to learn power technique, etc.

I'm probably not very articulate in this, but I really do think that a lot of the blade stuff is just hype (I know, I know, I wear dance blades... -- probably just all hype) and that most skaters will probably skate just as well in any blade. Not to say that there are not preferences, and that some skills may be better in one blade than another (I don't want to disount the experiences of the very fine people who have written about their blade experiences on this board).

Coronation Ace is a darn good blade. I think that's what you should get.

[Casey]

So, Casey, as far as speed goes, getting a flatter blade may give you more run and you may be faster, but at your level (I know, people keep saying that) it might be good for you to learn how to get speed out of ANY blade rather than relying on the blade to do it for you. It would be really good for your skating to learn power technique, etc.
Believe me, speed is no problem at all, as others who have seen some of my videos (where I am not skating at full speed) can attest, and this is on 7' rockers. Without meaning to brag, I can skate faster than anybody else who's tried to outrun me (funny thing is that it's a few good hockey skaters who come the closest, not people in 8' rocker freestyle blades). I skate very fast, and I love it. Heck I even have 5/16" hollows at the moment, and deeper hollows slow you down because of the increased drag (though I am getting them changed back to 7/16" tonight). But the ability to go even faster is still very tempting. :P

[icedancer2]

But the ability to go even faster is still very tempting. :P

I still say the same thing: Technique, technique, technique.

Too bad you don't live in Oregon -- it would be fun to skate with you sometime.

[stardust skies]

Hey Casey-

Well first of, I am not reacting badly, I know you've listened to my advice, but you just seem like one of those people (and I am one too so don't think it's an insult), who while they WILL listen to advice, will eventually be too stubborn to listen to it if they don't like it and have to make their own mistakes. This is what I do a lot of the time too.

As far as Pattern 99's, there's two reasons I recommended them: the very top reason is because at the time, you didn't really want to hear about the lower-end blades. I did mention the MK Pros and Coronation Aces back then too, and said something along the lines of "and if you must have a high end blade, at least come down to a Pattern 99". I know you like higher end blades, and that is your right, and I felt that if you had to have one, the Pattern 99 was a little bit more usable than Gold anythings. The second reason is that I had not yet seen the videos of your skating. Since then, I have, and I have seen your spins and what seems to be the trouble with them, and I have read your posts about your jump issues, and that is when I rethought you benefiting from the top toe pick of Pattern 99's and from their 8 Ft. rocker. The more info a person gets, the better recommendation they can give you, and that is the case here. Plus, I thought Gold Stars had an 8 Ft. rocker to begin with, but they don't as you said, so that's another reason not to go up to one. If you had already had an 8 Ft. rocker and then gotten a 7 Ft, I know you would have hated the fact that they would slow you down. But since you've got good speed and you're on a 7 Ft., there should be no problem getting another 7 Ft.

I guess the only point I was trying to make is that regardless of what *I* think, because as I said, I'm not the be all and end all and I'm fully aware of it, I just think that after all this time, you shouldn't need to even ask your friend how he fares in Gold Seal. You shouldn't want to say "I almost certainly" won't get them. I guess I just feel like if you had learned the "lesson" which I don't think you deserved to learn by wasting all that money and I DO feel bad for you that you did, you wouldn't even say "almost". You wouldn't need further convincing that higher-end blades are not yet for you (though I know they will be someday), and you wouldn't even look twice at them. The fact that there's even .000001 percent chance that you want to get them, is what I do not get. But then, people function differently, and I think that's all it comes down to.

I trust you to keep us updated of your choices, either way. :)

[stardust skies]

Furthermore, because the rocker is almost non existent, they are terrible for spinning. Spinning on a 99 is like spinning in mud compared to a Gold Seal. The only advantage to a 99 is they are marginally better for jumping. If your technique is good that shouldn't make any difference anyway.



Well, if this guy can't hold an edge on a Pattern 99, he might wanna go back to basics, because edge quality has little/nothing to do with blade height. I get amazing edges on my blades, and I've never felt too close to the ice compared to other blades I have used. In fact, I noticed no difference at all.

Furthermore, he must not be a very knowledgeable skater (or a very good one, for that matter), because he is blaming his bad spins on the rocker of the Pattern 99's (....never had any spin problems with my blades, I guess I must just be a spinning GENIUS to bypass this terrible handicap my blades give me....), and he is saying he does way better spins in Gold Seals....and guess what?! BOTH BLADES HAVE THE SAME SIZE ROCKER. He might have wanted to do his research before writing this. His "I can't spin on the Pattern 99 because the rocker is too flat!!" argument sort of deflates when you learn the Gold Seal, which he apparently loves, has exactly the same measurements. There's way too many people out there who are giving out recommendations without even knowing the specs of the blades they are recommending, and to me, that's half the reason so many people have equipment issues. It's a shame.

PS: For the record, sharpening all blades is equally easy/difficult. They just go on the grinding wheel. The only blades that are harder to sharpen are the parabolic blades. There's no difference sharpening MK Pros, Pattern 99, or any other normal blade. :)

[Casey]

You shouldn't want to say "I almost certainly" won't get them.
I am a very honest person, and I will never say something is certain until it is. And I also know myself well enough to know that saying "I will definitely not get X", regardless of what X might be, is not necessarily true until the money has been spent instead on Y.

There are no certainties about my future, only probabilities. Please don't be offended by that.

I trust you to keep us updated of your choices, either way. :)
I'm actually quite tempted to go and buy something that hasn't even entered this thread at all, and not tell anybody. At the end of the day it's my feet, and I'll not feel bad about any choice I happen to make because no matter what it is, it's not going to please everyone. If it pleases me, I'm happy. If it doesn't, blades can be changed.

[icedancer2]

I'm actually quite tempted to go and buy something that hasn't even entered this thread at all, and not tell anybody. At the end of the day it's my feet, and I'll not feel bad about any choice I happen to make because no matter what it is, it's not going to please everyone. If it pleases me, I'm happy. If it doesn't, blades can be changed.

With that, how about any of these blades:

http://www.icepav.com/Blades.htm


And someone on this forum mentioned the MK Vision (also called Vantage) blade -- which just might be the right blade for you -- straight cut toe-picks, 7' rocker, I think this is considered an "Intermediate" freestyle blade:

http://www.mkblades.com/blades/vision.html

Oh, the possibilities. 8-)

Wow. It's a slow, rainy day in Portland, that's for sure. :giveup:

[Skate@Delaware]

I sure have gotten educated about blades! If this topic had come up before I had gotten mine, would it have changed my mind? Doubtful. I put a lot of trust in the opinion, judgement, and recommendation of my coach. I just don't know that much yet....I'm still trying to figure out the whole roh thing :giveup:

What I have figured out is this:
You can get a blade that is too advanced for your skills.
You still have to practice to get better!
Technique is the key to better skating.
It takes more money than I care to admit spending to my husband ... :oops:
A properly mounted blade is almost better than a winning lottery ticket (almost :lol:)

What I haven't figured out is this:
What the heck is a radius (I'm mathmatically challenged)?
Why do skates have heels when none of my other shoes do? :!:

[techskater]

I can tell you from watching someone else I skate with day in and out that going from an 8' rocker to a 7' rocker can improve an intermediate adult (working on Silver moves, and Axels) skater almost instantly. She bought Gold Seals on the recommendation of a former coach (who had been a child skater and been on them for YEARS) and her spins were much harder for her and her stroking was "noisier". She recently got fed up with the Gold Seals and bought a pair of Phantoms (my training partner and I who are both Adult Gold level skaters wear Phantoms) and had instanteous spin centering and quieter overall skating. I personally love my Phantom parabolics and wouldn't wear anything else.

[jazzpants]

PS: For the record, sharpening all blades is equally easy/difficult. They just go on the grinding wheel. The only blades that are harder to sharpen are the parabolic blades. There's no difference sharpening MK Pros, Pattern 99, or any other normal blade. :)Shrug... dunno. All I know is that side-honing for this particular skate guy cost slightly more than any other blades. I have no clue if he charges more for parabolic blades but it wouldn't surprise me if he does. Parallel blades are much easier for him... but I also remember when I was skating in Wilson Excel that it was much cheaper than doing my MK Pros. (He said something about doing my MK Pro blades with more precision and that's why the extra cost...)

[Casey]

If you want to spend a year working on flips (or loops, or whatever else..) instead of 2 months and want to give up more coaching lessons because you WANT To spend an extra 200 bucks
And really, how does $200 equate to a year worth of coaching lessons? A coach around here is at _least_ $60/hour, and I imagine the better coaches that I mentioned to you might cost even more. Would I trade 2 or 3 hours of coaching time for blades that will last me for 2-3 years if not many more? Heck yes I would.

I stand by the decision I made the first time around - money doesn't really matter when it comes to skates. They are critical equipment for the sport. One slight difference though, I am now choosing to ignore the price tag altogether, whereas before I was falsely assuming that more expensive meant better for me. The price of my next skates will make absolutely no difference, whatever it is I will save for it and buy them regardless.

I went with a recommendation for boots of somebody I trusted last time - it may have not been perfect for me, but neither may your advice be perfect for me. At the end of the day you can only make the most educated guess you can, and hope it works out.

Yeah, I decided on my own whim to get Gold Stars instead of Coronation Aces which the fitter initially recommended - and yes, it was based purely on the thought that more expensive meant better because I knew nothing about blades then (I think I know one heck of a lot about blades now). After your warnings, I discussed the Gold Stars again with the fitter, and he reassured me that while they were higher-end blades than necessary, they would not hinder my progress. Judging by my progress, they haven't.

[aussieskater]

I've heard that with careful sharpening a good pair of blades can last up to 100 sharpenings. Maybe more. Thanks Bill! (And thanks for the sticky link - read it and like you found it very interesting). I can now be sure that my blades will outlast my boots...100 sharpenings! At 4 sharpens a year, that's 25 years! (I seem to be quite light on the blades, although I'm not a lightweight in real life, and my skates don't seem to need sharpening more often than that. Rather begs the question: what am I doing wrong, but that's another story!)

[singerskates]

Yeah, that's what I have, MK 5's. What's the rocker on them? I really like rocker-ish skates, I get a better roll to the toe off them, however, when I first got them, I thought I was going to die. My old blades were so worn out they had practically no rocker left and were "flat". It was a huge shock, and next time I'll change blades before they get too worn down.

I'm thinking that your blades are OK, but what are you doing in Edmonton specials when it sounds like you're a beginner getting your single jumps. My coach wears specials and I wouldn't touch them as there's no flex.

I'm in Edmonton Specials because of my foot type. I had only two choices at the time for boots, SP Teri or Graf Edmonton Specials. Now more brands have options for people with feet like mine;narrow heel and wide balled foot. I've also nice bunions. So I had to get something soft inside and not stiff like the SP Teri. I think my next boot will either be the Graf F-4000 or the Jackson hinged boot that is like it but is not out on the market yet. You can now order Jackson's with two sizes;B heel and D ball or whatever you wish. That wasn't an option before. I just found this out at Adult Canadians at the Jackson display. If the new boots I'd buy were still about the same size as my current Grafs, I'd keep using my Pattern 99's. Otherwise I'd go with Ultima Blades. I'd pick ones that are simular to the Pattern 99's because they work for me.

My main problem with my backspin, two footing loops, flips and lutzes is that I'm not confident on my RBO edge because my current skates are warped where the top of the boot meets the sole of the boot which has made me have to put shimmies between the blade and the sole of my boots. It's a manufacting defect I wish I would have known about within the first year I bought them. If I would have known about it, I would have sent them back to Graf and got another pair. That is why next time I buy boots, I will take Vern Taylor with me to buy my boots. No more garbage boots for me. This is a problem I've been skating with for 3 years, ripping apart my hip, knees and ankles because the boots were warped and I didn't know it until this past year. I just don't have the money to replace my boots at the moment and hey, I'm off on comp right now with my injuries anyway. No ice for me until I'm healed.

Brigitte

[stardust skies]

What I haven't figured out is this:
What the heck is a radius (I'm mathmatically challenged)?
Why do skates have heels when none of my other shoes do? :!:

I can't help ya with the heel, haha, but I can help with the rocker and radius.

The radius of hollow is the size at which the grinding wheel goes at your skate. It measures from one edge to the other. The "hollow" is the...well, hollow part between the two edges on the blade that you skate on. The radius of hollow just means how deep you have your edges sharpened. 1/2 is dull. 7/16 is sharp. 3/8 is sharper. And so forth.

A ROCKER, which is what we've talked about on this thread, literally relates to how big of a circle your blade can make. So, if you buy a blade that has an 8 FT. rocker, then the circle will be bigger than if you get a 7 ft rocker. This is so because the bigger the number of the rocker, the flatter it will be, the less it will curve, and the bigger the circle the blade could make. Of course, you never go and MAKE this circle, but that's what it relates to. The bigger the rocker, the flatter the blade. The flatter the blade, the faster it is, but the more difficult it is to do anything relating to curves, such as spinning. Hope I helped!

[stardust skies]

And really, how does $200 equate to a year worth of coaching lessons? A coach around here is at _least_ $60/hour, and I imagine the better coaches that I mentioned to you might cost even more. Would I trade 2 or 3 hours of coaching time for blades that will last me for 2-3 years if not many more? Heck yes I would.


Well I guess that's a difference in priority. Sometimes I get runs in my tights, and I hate to wear runny tights, but I'd rather have tights that have runs in them and save the 20 bucks it costs and have it go towards an extra choreography lesson. And I'm not even hurting for money. Same thing when I go out and buy clothes. I spend money on good clothes, but if I'm about to buy something super expensive that I don't need- like an extra Chanel bag for 500 dollars, I put it down and say "I'm gonna get an extra lesson every week this month instead, and it'll bring me much more positivity than a stupid bag" I guess it's just a difference in where you want your money to go, and why.

If you are hurting for money and cannot afford lessons, then IMHO you should be looking at the cheapest possible blade you can get that would still be appropriate for your level and wouldn't hold you back. If you really wanted to progress and take the sport seriously, that's what you'd do- get the most economical equipment that is still good enough to benefit you, without having anything you don't need. What you're thinking of doing now is like taking out a second mortgage on a house so the car you're buying can have a sunroof. It screws you out of money you need for important stuff, and displaces it somewhere you really don't need. It's your money, your feet, your decision, as you reminded me, but then I'm not sure why you repeatedly ask for opinions. You don't need to go "behind the board's back" to buy blades- if you don't ask us what we think is best for you, then we won't tell you, and we won't care what you buy. You make it our bussiness by asking all the questions, and we become involved and want to help. That's all. It's your choice to bring people into it.

As far as 200 bucks for a year of lessons...no, you got it backwards. I was saying (and it was a figure of speech, but let's see if it works..) that if you buy blades that are 200 bucks more expensive, a certain jump might take you a year, cause the blade is too advanced for you. IF you buy the right blade for your level, then you save 200 dollars, and it might take you two months to learn the jumps since the blade will not work against you. So it'd be 200 bucks for two months of lessons. If you have a coach that charges you 30 bucks for 20 minutes, and you divide the 200 bucks into it, that makes it about 7 lessons. Since you said you can't afford a coach right now, I'd think that a lesson every week for seven weeks would benefit you more than Gold Seals. But whatever, I've given up this debate. I just wanted to justify my previous posts

I still maintain that the blade itself has some sort of status for you, because your posts have an angry tone to it when people tell you to get something appropriate to your level and what you're looking at are way too advanced for you, and so long as you don't realize that it is not a negative thing, you'll want blades you don't need.

Plus the post about your fitter proves to me that it's a battle lost. You had it right the first time. Your fitter sold you boots way too big for you. Forget about what brand he sold you. The boots are too big, and that's after you asked for a size smaller than what he said. If you'd followed his advice, you'd have even bigger boots. Wonder how much you'd have progressed then. And if you had gotten MK pros to start with, even if they WERE too big to switch into a new boot when you go to a smaller one (since the ones you fitter sold you are way too big and all) then you would be about 300 bucks richer than you are now, and 300 bucks in your bank account could buy you new equipment right now, or lessons. You didn't need the money then, but you need it now, so I still say it was wasted. It baffles me that you want to make the same mistake twice, but I'm going to learn to let it go, because at the end of the day, it really doesn't make a difference in my day.

And I'm finally healthy, so I can stop becoming over-involved in this thread and go back to skating for myself on Monday, and at that point, you could post that you bought blades with remote-activated, helicopter-like wings on the sides that I will not make a big deal about it. Boredom makes me over-analytical, and apparently...damn wordy. :twisted:

[*IceDancer1419*]

Casey, you should try speedskating!!! :P hahaha!

My brother speedskates ;) My coach is also a speedskating coach ;) And you like going fast :P lol. ignore me ;)

[Skate@Delaware]

I can't help ya with the heel, haha, but I can help with the rocker and radius.

The radius of hollow is the size at which the grinding wheel goes at your skate. It measures from one edge to the other. The "hollow" is the...well, hollow part between the two edges on the blade that you skate on. The radius of hollow just means how deep you have your edges sharpened. 1/2 is dull. 7/16 is sharp. 3/8 is sharper. And so forth.

A ROCKER, which is what we've talked about on this thread, literally relates to how big of a circle your blade can make. So, if you buy a blade that has an 8 FT. rocker, then the circle will be bigger than if you get a 7 ft rocker. This is so because the bigger the number of the rocker, the flatter it will be, the less it will curve, and the bigger the circle the blade could make. Of course, you never go and MAKE this circle, but that's what it relates to. The bigger the rocker, the flatter the blade. The flatter the blade, the faster it is, but the more difficult it is to do anything relating to curves, such as spinning. Hope I helped!
I'm thinking the heels were just left on as a remnant from the "good old days" and to keep me pitching forward when I land my jumps :frus:
Thanks for the other info.....
I have the comets which have an 8.5' radius...maybe I can blame that for my inconsistant spinning....
I'm debating now as to changing my roh to the 7/16 (it's 1/2" now, but I like a real grabby edge). Maybe later, once my regular rink re-opens (in 59 days and counting)

[icedancer2]

I can't help ya with the heel, haha, but I can help with the rocker and radius.

The radius of hollow is the size at which the grinding wheel goes at your skate. It measures from one edge to the other. The "hollow" is the...well, hollow part between the two edges on the blade that you skate on. The radius of hollow just means how deep you have your edges sharpened. 1/2 is dull. 7/16 is sharp. 3/8 is sharper. And so forth.

A ROCKER, which is what we've talked about on this thread, literally relates to how big of a circle your blade can make. So, if you buy a blade that has an 8 FT. rocker, then the circle will be bigger than if you get a 7 ft rocker. This is so because the bigger the number of the rocker, the flatter it will be, the less it will curve, and the bigger the circle the blade could make. Of course, you never go and MAKE this circle, but that's what it relates to. The bigger the rocker, the flatter the blade. The flatter the blade, the faster it is, but the more difficult it is to do anything relating to curves, such as spinning. Hope I helped!

I hope I'm reading this correctly, Stardust, as I am going to argue a little with your explanation of the "rocker". The rocker has nothing to do with the size of circle that you can make with your blade ON THE ICE -- it has everything to do with how large a circle you can make if you laid a whole bunch of blades end to end and then measured the radius of that circle. The 8' radius blade would, placed end to end, make a circle that has an 8' radius (please, some math expert help me!! I don't remember the correct term for this and I can't draw a picture in this window!)

Chuck Wright explains it on his website like this:




What is the rocker?


If you look at the blade from the side, you will see that it curves from front to back. This is the rocker. Blade companies generally specify the "rocker radius" for their different blades. If you draw a circle of this radius (typically 7 or 8 feet), approximately the back 2/3 of the blade will have a fairly circular contour that matches the arc of the circle with a 7 or 8-foot radius. The radius of curvature decreases toward the front (there is more curve), giving the blade a complex shape.



The increased curve toward the front of the blade has an interesting effect. If you move your weight forward on the blade while on an edge, it will want to turn on a deeper edge. You may know that you spin on this part of the blade. You probably have also felt how the blade can grab if you rock back on it while spinning. A long radius of curvature gives a faster, more stable blade. This is why speed skates have very little rocker. It also gives less maneuverability, which is a reason why figure skates curve more at the front. MK blades are mostly specified to have a 7-foot radius and John Wilson blades have an 8 radius specification. A recent check of many new blades indicated that the MK blades were pretty close to their specified 7-foot radius, while Wilson blades were closer to 6.



Of more concern is the considerable deviation that is seen, in the form of local "humps" in the rockers at various points on the blade, of both brands. Their specified radius is not precisely controlled. A good sharpener can detect these “humps” and usually correct the rocker. Of course, it is also quite possible that careless sharpening can introduce such problems as well.

As far as the heel height goes, I don't know -- if the heels were flat, like hockey skates, the blades would have to be different and it would I think be that much harder to point your toe. I do notice that my back never hurts when I skate, but I almost always have trouble with my upper back when I walk long distances in flat shoes -- it makes me think I should wear more of a heel for walking, but that is another subject I guess.

[Casey]

Sometimes I get runs in my tights, and I hate to wear runny tights, but I'd rather have tights that have runs in them and save the 20 bucks it costs and have it go towards an extra choreography lesson. And I'm not even hurting for money. Same thing when I go out and buy clothes. I spend money on good clothes, but if I'm about to buy something super expensive that I don't need- like an extra Chanel bag for 500 dollars, I put it down and say "I'm gonna get an extra lesson every week this month instead, and it'll bring me much more positivity than a stupid bag".
Well, you're talking about things that don't affect your skating one way or the other, things that are only cosmetic besides. You have no idea how much I've given up for skating.

If you really wanted to progress and take the sport seriously
I do take the sport seriously, and that's why I bought the gold stars in the first place, I believed (based erroneously on sticker price) that they would allow me to advance the fastest. Sure, I wasn't right. Oh well.

If you don't ask us what we think is best for you, then we won't tell you, and we won't care what you buy.
I WANT opinions, and I WANT to hear people's experiences - that's why I asked. I did not want to be put down for my past choices nor did I want to be yelled at because I didn't immediately say "gee stardust, yes you're right, I'll not question you one bit". I really don't know what made you feel it was justified to just come out and attack me like you did. You can make all the advice you want, but you can't ram it down my throat. It certainly meant a lot more to me before this recent argument - now my trust in you is seriously damaged, whereas before, your recommendations concerning skating equipment meant more to me than anybody else (believe it or not). I'll question any advice and seek more detail regardless of what my inclination is at the time - I want to make as well-educated of a decision as possible this time, since last time I did not.

[I meant] that if you buy blades that are 200 bucks more expensive, a certain jump might take you a year, cause the blade is too advanced for you.
Okay, that makes sense. Thanks for clarifying.

I still maintain that the blade itself has some sort of status for you
You're couldn't be less accurate. Nobody at my rink even knows what blade I have I don't think, and the only thing it means to me is whether or not I can skate as well. I didn't buy Gold Star blades to show off to my friends, I bought them with the belief that they would allow me to advance the fastest.

because your posts have an angry tone to it when people tell you to get something appropriate to your level and what you're looking at are way too advanced for you, and so long as you don't realize that it is not a negative thing, you'll want blades you don't need.
My recent posts directed at you have had a negative tone because yours towards me have been extremely negative, there's no other reason. Had you been more considerate instead of attacking me, you might have been surprised by the different reaction you'd have gotten. But advice from somebody who's treating me like crap means NOTHING.

then you would be about 300 bucks richer than you are now
No, I would have wasted the money on something else, and would be in exactly the same predicament now.

Boredom makes me over-analytical, and apparently...damn wordy. :twisted:
I don't have a problem with either, I in fact enjoy them. But I do not enjoy being put down or made to feel bad because of my past decisions.

My only mistake has been letting my skates get in the way of my skating. I don't regret anything else - if nothing else it's all been a great learning experience, and I'm smarter now for it.

[stardust skies]

I hope I'm reading this correctly, Stardust, as I am going to argue a little with your explanation of the "rocker". The rocker has nothing to do with the size of circle that you can make with your blade ON THE ICE -- it has everything to do with how large a circle you can make if you laid a whole bunch of blades end to end and then measured the radius of that circle. The 8' radius blade would, placed end to end, make a circle that has an 8' radius (please, some math expert help me!! I don't remember the correct term for this and I can't draw a picture in this window!)

Chuck Wright explains it on his website like this:



As far as the heel height goes, I don't know -- if the heels were flat, like hockey skates, the blades would have to be different and it would I think be that much harder to point your toe. I do notice that my back never hurts when I skate, but I almost always have trouble with my upper back when I walk long distances in flat shoes -- it makes me think I should wear more of a heel for walking, but that is another subject I guess.

Yeah you are reading my post right. :) I get what you are saying, but then...if lining up these blades one next to the other created this particular size circle, wouldn't riding the natural circle/curve of the blade also trace the same circle as lining it up with more pairs? You could conclude that the pair in front of each pair of blade before it is the natural direction the blade would take anyway. I don't know, that is what I was told years ago, there's a chance it is wrong, but it's always made sense to me! :D

[stardust skies]

Casey---

Well as far as for clarifying my last post, all I want to say is that I'm not saying you're buying blades to show off to anybody- I never thought that for a second. I know that sometimes, I wear my most expensive make up and clothes when I'm gonna stay home all night and lounge around, and I do it so *I* can feel beautiful and luxurious and what have you. In a similar reasoning, I think you might have (even subconsciously) bought your high-end blades to make YOURSELF feel more advanced, which isn't the way to go. I just don't see how anyone could reason that a more difficult blade to handle would make them progress faster, so I have to think of another explanation. But what I said is just my assumption, and I'm fine with being wrong. After all I do not know you. All I can do is tell you what appears on the outside, and I'm doing it to try and pinpoint to you why you made the mistake so you don't do it again (because it sounds like you might), NOT to put you down.

What baffles me is not that you don't agree or like my advice, but rather the fact that you think I put you down, or even more..yelled at you. I think you are being really overdramatic- and this is the first negative thing I have said about you as a person....ever. We're talking about BLADES, dude. Blades. It's not going to end world hunger at the end of the day, I'm trying to help you out. I realize you might not want to follow my advice, and that's totally fine with me, but so long as you haven't bought them yet and are still asking questions, I will still try to give you points and try to help you make the right decision, because otherwise I wouldn't be helpful. I'm not trying to shove a decision down your throat- I recommended both the MK Pros. and JW Coronation Aces absolutely equally, because they are similar blades, and they are both designed FOR your level. The only thing I'm trying to shove down your throat is that you should buy the right blade for your level, because someone desperatly needs to make you understand that. If I'm going to be hated for it, that's cool with me. This is just a message board, and I still feel like I'm doing the right thing by trying.

Bottom line though, is that I haven't put you down, and I certainly haven't yelled at you. I really don't see why I'd pull something like that over a BLADE discussion. I think you're taking it wayyyyyy too personally. I would have told anyone the exact same thing as I told you, in the same words. I'm talking about particular situations and equipment- who you are as a person has nothing to do with my advice, and thus I have no reason to put you down or insult you. I don't know why it has to be so dramatic, I'm just trying to reason you out of the wrong blades.

Oh well. A good deed never goes unpunished, and all that. If you need any further explanation of my intentions, feel free to pm me, I think this convo has gone from helpful discussion to soap opera in about three posts. :giveup:

[Casey]

Casey, you should try speedskating!!! :P hahaha!
Nah, I like jumping and spinning too much. :P

[*IceDancer1419*]

Wait... who said you couldn't do BOTH?!?!


My dance partner does both! started as a speedskater, but has been converted ;) lol (still does both, of course)

:P ;)

(I'm trying to convince my 8.y.o brother to dance with this adorable little girl at this one rink, also 8, but he thinks figure skating/figure skates are the source of ALL evil in the world ;) )

[Skate@Delaware]

Wait... who said you couldn't do BOTH?!?!


My dance partner does both! started as a speedskater, but has been converted ;) lol (still does both, of course)

:P ;)

(I'm trying to convince my 8.y.o brother to dance with this adorable little girl at this one rink, also 8, but he thinks figure skating/figure skates are the source of ALL evil in the world ;) )

I would love to speedskate! Sometimes I see how fast I can go around the rink!
I am also trying to convince my 9 yo son to also take up figure skating....(in addition to hockey of course) the girls would line up for him-he's cute. He just learned to do a waltz jump in his hockey skates (he told us we had better not tell his friends and coach or else!)

[Casey]

Oh, I *have* a pair of speed skates - I got them on eBay back when I first started skating, and I don't think they're bad at all as far as speed skates go. But they're sooooo weird to skate on because you can't turn without crossing over, and I can go faster on figure blades (not to mention it lets me dodge the random little kid factor)!

*icedancer1419*, maybe your brother can teach me some speed skating properly one day. :P

[icedancer2]

Yeah you are reading my post right. :) I get what you are saying, but then...if lining up these blades one next to the other created this particular size circle, wouldn't riding the natural circle/curve of the blade also trace the same circle as lining it up with more pairs? You could conclude that the pair in front of each pair of blade before it is the natural direction the blade would take anyway. I don't know, that is what I was told years ago, there's a chance it is wrong, but it's always made sense to me! :D

Okay, I get what you mean now. Hmmm.

I guess what made me think that this was not correct way of thinking was that in figures, you can do loops (very small circles) with either radius size. But then again, this is not the natural "direction of the blade" but rather a technique that is learned to control the blade (and body) to go in a very small circle to control the figure.

I'm wondering now about deeper lobes, shallow lobes, like in dance -- does it make a difference what blade you are wearing? I don't know. I don't think so, but then again, I know that technique -- for example, what you are doing with your free leg and toe can really make a difference in the depth of the edge -- again, not really the natural "direction of the blade" per se, but learned technique.

Interesting. Thanks for the discussion. :)

[stardust skies]

Okay, I get what you mean now. Hmmm.

I guess what made me think that this was not correct way of thinking was that in figures, you can do loops (very small circles) with either radius size. But then again, this is not the natural "direction of the blade" but rather a technique that is learned to control the blade (and body) to go in a very small circle to control the figure.

I'm wondering now about deeper lobes, shallow lobes, like in dance -- does it make a difference what blade you are wearing? I don't know. I don't think so, but then again, I know that technique -- for example, what you are doing with your free leg and toe can really make a difference in the depth of the edge -- again, not really the natural "direction of the blade" per se, but learned technique.

Interesting. Thanks for the discussion. :)

Yeah that's exactly what I mean- I was afraid I wasn't being too clear with it. You can control your blade to make whatever circle you want, more or less. But if the blade had its way (tough chance ;) ) where would it go? Who knows. I can't even remember who told me this, I know it was a fitter, but I can't remember who or where. I think rocker size does affect lobes though, I mean if you get a bigger radius, it's probably easier to make bigger lobes because the blade naturally curves less, and with a smaller rocker, it's easier to make smaller really tight lobes, because the blade naturally curves more. I know that's one of the reasons I got an 8 FT rocker, because my footwork in general needed to be bigger and less curved up onto itself. It did help to get a flatter blade for that. It might also explain why a bigger rocker is harder to center spins with- because it makes naturally larger circles, so it's harder to center them and to control the spin to make the small circles it needs to make to be a good spin. Anyhow, that's just my logic. Thanks for the discussion too. :D

[ilovedogs]

My daughter has been using pattern 99 blades since she was in freestyle 1. We started out buying barely used ones to buying new ones. She had a pair of phantoms once but didn't like them any better and her skating was the same. She has passed all her moves and her novice fs test, consistantly lands her double axel and lands 2 triples depending on the day. I think that by finding a good blade that the skater can grow with takes a lot of the anxiety away from getting new skates. My daughter's new skates always feel the same to her(just a little stiffer) and getting used to them takes very little time.

[Skate@Delaware]

Yeah that's exactly what I mean- I was afraid I wasn't being too clear with it. You can control your blade to make whatever circle you want, more or less. But if the blade had its way (tough chance ;) ) where would it go? Who knows. I can't even remember who told me this, I know it was a fitter, but I can't remember who or where. I think rocker size does affect lobes though, I mean if you get a bigger radius, it's probably easier to make bigger lobes because the blade naturally curves less, and with a smaller rocker, it's easier to make smaller really tight lobes, because the blade naturally curves more. I know that's one of the reasons I got an 8 FT rocker, because my footwork in general needed to be bigger and less curved up onto itself. It did help to get a flatter blade for that. It might also explain why a bigger rocker is harder to center spins with- because it makes naturally larger circles, so it's harder to center them and to control the spin to make the small circles it needs to make to be a good spin. Anyhow, that's just my logic. Thanks for the discussion too. :D
On those few instances where I've done perfect spins (which has happened maybe 3 times :), the circles were so small, you could cover them with a cd. I skate in coronation comets with their 8.5' radius.
As far as my lobes go, sometimes they are big, sometimes not. They seem to be more controlled by my body position and determined by technique-good or bad.
Right now, my obstacle is arm position and knowing where they are supposed to be during a particular move :oops:

[Casey]

Well, if this guy can't hold an edge on a Pattern 99, he might wanna go back to basics, because edge quality has little/nothing to do with blade height.
I think it depends on how much you lean. There have been times when I've leaned too much into fast crossovers, so much that the edge of the boot hits the ice and the blade therefore cannot, so I go flying. Less blade height would be less tolerant of deep leaning.

I don't know how much of it has to do with technique though - I could see this making a really big difference to female pair skaters doing death spirals...

[jazzpants]

Hey, I know of a hockey skater and instructor who started out in pairs. He was last seen a few months ago taking ice dancing lessons so that when his "new mom" wife is ready that he could teach her the steps and they can ice dance together!!! AWWWWW!!!! :) (And he's probably one of the better ice hockey coaches too from what I've seen!)

Now to convince our speed skater ice guard to convert... :twisted:

[icedancer2]

I think it depends on how much you lean. There have been times when I've leaned too much into fast crossovers, so much that the edge of the boot hits the ice and the blade therefore cannot, so I go flying. Less blade height would be less tolerant of deep leaning.

Lean has something to do with it, but also technique -- an ice-dancers boots hit the ice all of the time and yet they manage to get very deep edges and their blade doesn't leave the ice. They have very good control.

[MusicSkateFan]

Well I love my new pattern 99's. They were quite a bit different than my Gam g3 blades. I am doing sooooo much better in the spin department. I am 5'11'' 193lbs solid guy and I think I warranted a pretty high quality blade and boot.

My ultimate goal is all doubles jumps and an axel . I think this type of blade was a good choice for me.

[Casey]

You might want to read this (http://oasis.dit.upm.es/~jantonio/personal/patinaje/equip.htm#Blades) from the Technical Figure Skating by Kevin Anderson website before you consider a Patterns 99 blade...
Hey Jazzpants,

Well I actually am just now *reading* this article instead of just the quote, and this guy sounds a bit off, saying that 1/2" to 1" is the normal ROH, and a typical freestyle skater would use 3/4" and most won't even go down to 1/2" (and 3/8" is "outrageously deep").

Ehhhmmmm....this seems totally wrong!

[jazzpants]

Hey Jazzpants,

Well I actually am just now *reading* this article instead of just the quote, and this guy sounds a bit off, saying that 1/2" to 1" is the normal ROH, and a typical freestyle skater would use 3/4" and most won't even go down to 1/2" (and 3/8" is "outrageously deep").

Ehhhmmmm....this seems totally wrong!Well, speaking from someone who has tried 3/8"... it's defintely too sticky for me. I started at 1/2" and found that 7/16" is better for me...

In the end, you'll gonna have to try different ROH and find out which one is best for 'ya!!! I can't make any recommendations for 'ya short of trying factory ROH first and then try another one on your next sharpening and seeing how that feels. Heck, it might be that you might like 3/8"...

BTW: I happen to know Kevin... he was a skating buddy of mine and was starting to land double flips when he quit. He wrote the website back when he was still working on double flips. And trust me, his footwork is nice... very smooth and clean... Sad that he had to give up skating to save his lower back! :cry: But definitely someone I trust on skating stuff... (And of course, he also had a great skater and coach too...and w/o giving names out, this coach I definitely trust -- enough that I also had him too!)

[sarahyani]

----------

[flo]

Sarayani,
the "best equipment" is what is needed for the individual skater to properly learn. Over blading, as well as over booting can make this difficult and frustrating for the skater - no matter what part of the anatomy you "work off".

[sarahyani]

----------

[skaternum]

And by the way, Ray says we should stick to the topicWho is Ray? I don't see any posts by a "Ray" in this thread.

and stop attacking people and start using constructive criticism - i.e. being aware of what we say may be hurtful to others.And I think you're being overly sensitive. People ask for advice here. Other people give it. If you don't like the advice, oh well. I don't see that anybody here is being "hurtful to others." There have been disagreements and misunderstandings, but Casey is a big boy and can take care of himself. The questions of "What are the best boots" and "What are the best blades" is impossible for anyone else to answer -- by definition, it's going to generate disagreement. We disagree about stuff all the time here. No biggie.

[Casey]

Who is Ray? I don't see any posts by a "Ray" in this thread.
rf3ray, who started some of the other threads asking about gold seals, and whom stardust skies referred to as "your friend" in the above posts. As it happens he's no more or less a friend than pretty much anyone else here, I consider nearly everyone here a friend!

There have been disagreements and misunderstandings, but Casey is a big boy and can take care of himself.
Well I'm actually still just a baby in skating terms. ;-) But I'm not really offended or anything - I just got angry at stardust skies a bit back because I was frustrated and reading her words as an attack on me. We've sorted things out in private discussion though - all's well that ends well. :)

Sarah, I do agree with you though, and thank you for your kind words - at the end of the day only the skater buying the equipment can make the final decision of what is right or wrong for them. Even if all the better equipment does is instill more confidence, if that allows you to progress faster then it's worth it.

But I wanted to hear other's input, because while I'm certainly curious about other blades, I can't realistically afford to go buy a pair of each, try them all out, and decide for myself. Blades are expensive, and I don't really want to waste a bunch of money on a theory that they *might* work better and end up with something I can barely skate on.

I was actually pondering just saving up and getting another set of Gold Stars, simply because they've worked very well for me and it avoids this whole Aces/Professionals versus Gold Seals debate entirely. But I think I'd do equally well on Aces, and save a bunch of money in the process. If I end up not liking them, well, at least it didn't cost too terribly much to try!

I think the end result of this discussion is that pretty much everyone says Coronation Aces or Professionals are the most appropriate choice for an early level all the way up through the doubles, but if you've got any sort of reasonable determination, you can make do on lesser or greater skates. My gut feeling on the matter is that it doesn't really relate to level so much as what just happens to feel best on your feet, just like the debate about different boot brands. Some people find an 8' rocker easy, others find it unmanageable. Some people love SP Teris, others have sore feet in them.

Just gotta make your mind up and go with whatever feels best to you and see what happens - chances are you'll manage just fine. If not, at least you learned from it!

[flo]

sarahyani,
There's no attack here. There's just a common misconception by skaters early in their career that the "best" blade or boot means the top of the production line. It's not the case and causes frustration for those not in the proper boots and blades for their level. Also, many early skaters get in lots of practice time allowing them to wear out a pair of blades and "grow into" the next pair as their skill increases. Like Casey said, it's difficult to pick something you really can't try out, and it can be an expensive mistake. He and hopefully others are just benefiting from years and years of experience on these boards. Since as you said you couldn't "be bothered reading 3 pages of discussion" you got the Reader's Digest summary.

[stardust skies]

Ok flo whatever. I was just saying something positive for poor casey coz no one else seems to give him any support. So what if he made a mistake in getting his blades, it might take him a little longer to get things but so what? He now knows whats good and whats not good for him... and as should everyone else here.

And by the way, Ray says we should stick to the topic and stop attacking people and start using constructive criticism - i.e. being aware of what we say may be hurtful to others.

I agree 100% Go Ray!!!

***Cockburn Skaters Rock my socks :bow:

I think you need to lose the attitude. This is the concept of a forum: people bring up a topic, then we debate it and bring our knowledge to the table. We agree, with disagree, with bicker if it's really something we feel strongly about, and everyone walks out better informed because of it. You need to realize that just because somebody disagrees with you doesn't mean they are attacking you or being negative. And even if they are being negative, it wouldn't be the thing to do to be negative in return, and saying "whatever Flo" to someone who's been on this board forever and has earned respect here which you've yet to do isn't the way to go about preaching that we shouldn't be negative to each other. How's about you take your own advice and stop taking thing so defensively?

[stardust skies]

*snipped because quoting entire long posts is annoying*

Casey, I agree with every single thing you said 100 percent. As to why I called him "your friend", I guess it's because I thought you guys were close friends from before you started skating or something. Plus he's local. I don't know! But I had forgotten his name- I shall make sure to use it in future references. :)

[Skate@Delaware]

Should I think about getting my daughter an upgrade in blades? Her coach says it up to her at this point (which is really not an answer). She is working on all her single jumps and just learned her camel spin, but her spins travel the globe. She is in Gams with the G3 blade, 1/2" roh. She is 5'2" and is 145 lbs. (yeah, she is a powerhouse...just a little chubby).

After reading this discussion and the others, I'm more confused than ever before. I know I can't trust the people in my rink's pro shop because of the bad advice I've been given before.......

Suggestions?

[Casey]

Casey, I agree with every single thing you said 100 percent. As to why I called him "your friend", I guess it's because I thought you guys were close friends from before you started skating or something. Plus he's local. I don't know! But I had forgotten his name- I shall make sure to use it in future references. :)
Not local at all, he's in Australia and I'm in Washington State, opposite sides of the world! And I met him on this forum well after we'd both started skating. :) Only similarities are that we started skating around the same time and have both progressed through the basics pretty fast.

[aussieskater]

I apologise in advance if this sounds dumb, but as a relatively beginner skater, is there really that much of a difference between blades if they have the same rocker, hollow (which can be done by the sharpener I know) and are the same shape (ie: parabolic vs ordinary etc)?

I can see that a different rocker would make a significant difference, as would the placement and the size of the toepick, but if you choose a blade with the same rocker, would it really take that long to get used to? If so, what's the bit you're not getting used to, if you understand me? (Sorry I haven't asked very well, but I don't have the knowledge to phrase the question properly. On the other hand, if I did have the knowledge, then I wouldn't be asking the question...)

Thanks in advance and apologies again!

[Casey]

I apologise in advance if this sounds dumb, but as a relatively beginner skater, is there really that much of a difference between blades if they have the same rocker, hollow (which can be done by the sharpener I know) and are the same shape (ie: parabolic vs ordinary etc)?
I think the biggest differences between different blades of the same rocker, hollow, and form is the size and shape of the toepicks and quality of the metal - but I don't know what other differences there might be - maybe 2 blades with the same rocker have a slightly different contour to the blade? It's a bit mysterious to me too. :P

[Mrs Redboots]

Well, I know with dance blades, you used to have only one option, MK Dance, which are much thinner than ordinary blades, as well as having the short heel. These are considered "too much blade" for low-level dancers (in the days when "low-level" meant the 14-step this was, of course, different!), as because they are thinner, you are less stable on them. I don't want them yet - well, I want them, but I don't need them - and have settled for John Watts Dance, a relatively new blade which is designed for mid-level dancers. Thinner than the basic Coronation Dance, but not as thin as MK Dance. Probably slightly more blade than I need, but I'm skating up to it, which is good!

I'm not sure what the difference between the various grades of blade is; my coach just says Coronation Ace until you start your doubles, then upgrade to Phantoms next time you need new blades, and that'll do you!

[sk8er1964]

Should I think about getting my daughter an upgrade in blades? Her coach says it up to her at this point (which is really not an answer). She is working on all her single jumps and just learned her camel spin, but her spins travel the globe. She is in Gams with the G3 blade, 1/2" roh. She is 5'2" and is 145 lbs. (yeah, she is a powerhouse...just a little chubby).

After reading this discussion and the others, I'm more confused than ever before. I know I can't trust the people in my rink's pro shop because of the bad advice I've been given before.......

Suggestions?

This is kind of a weird suggestion - but you could ask Mr. Edge. I understand he's a skate guy in Chicago, and you can get his email from the USFS's Skating Magazine or maybe off the website?

[Skate@Delaware]

This is kind of a weird suggestion - but you could ask Mr. Edge. I understand he's a skate guy in Chicago, and you can get his email from the USFS's Skating Magazine or maybe off the website?
I forgot all about him! Thanks for the suggestion!

[Skate@Delaware]

Mirages are what I'm on. What level were you on when you changed, and what made you change? (Not that I'm anticipating a change any time soon - I suspect I need to get a whole lot better before I go up in blades!)
I'm bad-didn't follow up on this thread.
I have been struggling through USFSA Adult 4 when I upgraded. So, 3-turns, mohawks, scratch spins (which I don't really have) and the waltz jump are in my bag of tricks, as well as some other things.

The Comets, being relatively flat, have really helped with stroking and speed. They are also quiet. I think the steel is a better quality than the Mirages. However, because they are so flat, my spins are still bad.....don't know if there is any hope for me in that department. But the flatness gives you tons of landing room for jumps (once you roll off your toepick!). I'm glad I got them! As I said earlier though, if I'd known spins were going to give me such problems, then Aces would have been on my boots.

[doubletoe]

Oooh stardust, this detail is exactly what I was looking for in the other thread - wish I'd seen it first! Feel free to ignore me there :P

What do you think of Coronation Comets? Those are essentially the same as Aces with an 8' rocker, yes?

The 8' rocker is both tempting and scary. I want the faster speed and additional stability, but surely don't need any more difficulty on spins right now...

Comets have the flattest blade around. It's actually 8.5'. Good luck spinning on those, LOL!

[doubletoe]

This is kind of a weird suggestion - but you could ask Mr. Edge. I understand he's a skate guy in Chicago, and you can get his email from the USFS's Skating Magazine or maybe off the website?

I highly recommend MK Professional blades. They have the basic quality level of the top-end blades but without the extra cost-adding features that don't make that big of a difference anyway. Also, they have a 7' rocker, which will help her center her spins and hold onto them. Just make sure she gets her blades sharpened by someone who really knows what he's doing. Otherwise, the rocker will get flattened out more and more with each sharpening and that will hurt her spins.

[doubletoe]

I apologise in advance if this sounds dumb, but as a relatively beginner skater, is there really that much of a difference between blades if they have the same rocker, hollow (which can be done by the sharpener I know) and are the same shape (ie: parabolic vs ordinary etc)?

I can see that a different rocker would make a significant difference, as would the placement and the size of the toepick, but if you choose a blade with the same rocker, would it really take that long to get used to? If so, what's the bit you're not getting used to, if you understand me? (Sorry I haven't asked very well, but I don't have the knowledge to phrase the question properly. On the other hand, if I did have the knowledge, then I wouldn't be asking the question...)

Thanks in advance and apologies again!

Differences includes the size and shape of the toepick, and whether the blades are tapered (narrower towards the back of the blade) or side-honed (flared out towards the bottom of the blade, where it meets the ice, so that the edges have more "bite"). These are minor differences that may or may not make a significant impact on how well the blade works on the ice, but they are expensive features to add, so they bump up the price considerably. Then of course there are the new options like parabolic (narrower in the middle of the blade) blades and k-picks (little training wheel type picks on either side of the toepick). The blade one level below where the side-honing and tapering features start getting added on is normally going to be the top quality steel (like the MK Professional) but cheaper to produce because of the simpler design.

[doubletoe]

[QUOTE=Casey]
I do take the sport seriously, and that's why I bought the gold stars in the first place, I believed (based erroneously on sticker price) that they would allow me to advance the fastest. Sure, I wasn't right. Oh well.
time, since last time I did not.
[QUOTE]

I have MK Gold Stars and I like them a lot, but I am at a loss to find anything about them that would "hurt" a lower level skater's jumping, spinning or edge control. They have a 7' rocker just like the lower level blades, and they don't have a huge toepick (it's just a tad bigger than the Professional blade, and the same shape). They are side-honed and tapered, but that's neither here nor there. You could change the behavior of your blades at least as much by just grinding them to a different radius of hollow.

My reason for buying Gold Stars is that it's fun to try new equipment and I knew that if I upgraded from the Professionals to the Visions, I would just get tempted to try the Phantoms the next time I replaced my boots and then try the Gold Stars the next time after that. That's 3 blades I'd end up buying in 5 years and that gets to be a lot of money. So I decided to just buy the Gold Stars so that I'd have nothing to "upgrade" to. I've had them for 2 years now, and since I have a good blade sharpener, they should last me at least 3 more years.

[doubletoe]

[QUOTE=singerskates]
To the Pattern 99's credit, I had no trouble skating in them even though the toe pick was much bigger than the Comet's. I also was able to get more control in my skating. I also got my spins with the Pattern 99.

So what I'm saying is that for some the Pattern 99 can be a good thing and for others, not. I might be one of the few that the Pattern 99 helps. Talk to your coach and see what they recommend.

[QUOTE]

The reason the Pattern 99's had a positive effect on your spinning is because you were going from Comets (8.5' rocker) to Pattern 99's (8' rocker). Going to a smaller (rounder) rocker always helps spins, and this is the only case in which you switching to Pattern 99's would actually be switching to a smaller rocker. If you're switching from any blade other than a Comet, the Pattern 99's will be harder to spin on.

[doubletoe]

Okay, I'm an idiot. I just realized how old this thread is. . . Never mind! ROFL!!

[Skate@Delaware]

The reason the Pattern 99's had a positive effect on your spinning is because you were going from Comets (8.5' rocker) to Pattern 99's (8' rocker). Going to a smaller (rounder) rocker always helps spins, and this is the only case in which you switching to Pattern 99's would actually be switching to a smaller rocker. If you're switching from any blade other than a Comet, the Pattern 99's will be harder to spin on.
This may be an old thread, I'm going to post anyway.
After talking with some of the other adult skaters at my rink; the recommendation on progression seems to be:
1. Whatever came with your skates, until you start basic spins & jumps
2. Coronation Comets, until you get a 1-2 full rotation jumps
3. Pattern 99's
Seems pretty across-the-board for all. Not sure if I agree with this "one-size-fits-all recipe" because it's being recommended for the kids as well as the adults.

I know the coach has tons of experience with many other blades, but these are her favorites. I just wonder if I would have been better off with Coronation Aces for my spinning problems (everything else is fine-I can't center worth crap)...

Something to think about.

[Perry]

I was on comets through preliminary/prejuvenile, and I had little trouble spinning on them. I guess since I had to get used to them, my spins are no much easier to center.

And about what the best blade is: there are several top end blades, namely Gold Seals and Pattern 99s. Both are great blades, but the difference is really based on what your preferences are (just like a Klingbeil isn't neccessarily any better than an SPTeri). I'm in Gold Seals because I like the faster blade, the toepick works better for me, and I don't need the extra spinning hepl that Pattern 99s provide.

And don't buy top blades now. I got Gold Seals when I had an axel and a double sal, I think, which is actually pretty early (since I was only 7, and people wondered why my coach thought I needed good blades).

[Skate@Delaware]

My coach is fixing my spins---lengthening my entrance, which I have been rushing into.....I have to really almost make a full circle before I flip the 3-turn and spin (sigh).

[singerskates]

To me the blade didn't make a difference whether it was a MK 5, JW Comet or Pattern 99. Until I learned and discovered the correct way to start my spins and center my spins, I coudn't get anything going. Technique matters. Type of blade doesn't matter too much. I was just told to get the Pattern 99 by a former coach when it was time for me to move up to either the Graf Edmonton Special or SP Teri Super Deluxe. I chose Grafs since I didn't want feet that killed because I had a stand up job during the day to support my skating addiction. I had absolutely no problem adjusting to the toe pick size of the Pattern 99 switching from the Comets. When I need new boots, I may get another pair of Graf Edmonton Specials and place my current blades on them as they are still in good shape. I haven't sharpened them all that much. I've had them for 2 and half years and they have tons of sharpenings left in them. I was sharpening my blades once every two to three months skating 1 and half to 3 hours a day in them 4 days a week on hard hockey ice. I just had a deep hollow grind to cut the hard ice. I would always wait until I lost my edge while doing spirals before getting my blades sharpened.

singerskates

[Skate@Delaware]

When I start slipping on my outside edges during my warmups-it's time for a sharpening. Right now I'm at 1/2 ROH and it's ok; our rink has gone to harder ice for the hockey people though and I'm thinking about changing it. I like a grabby edge (my coach thinks it's strange that I'm not afraid of my edges-always been like that). I sharpen about every 20-25 hours of skating, so that's about 1-2 times a month for me! (I live at the rink-the joke is that I'm setting up a trailer in the parking lot :lol: )

I think my next set of boots will be custom Klingbeils because of all my bunions (unless something better comes along); and as a 40+ year old woman, why the hell not!!! Something that bends but I can jump in. As far as blades, I don't know.

[blisspix]

I keep thinking about the "old days" when I was a kid, and there weren't that many blades. I remember Coronation Ace and Gold Seal, but not a lot in between. Most of the people (kids) I skated with had Coronation Ace and most of those people were able to progress through all of their jumps and on up to doubles without changing blades. That's just the way it was.

I tend to agree. I had MK Single Star (no longer made) all the way up to doubles. Partially due to finances (parents). Now I have more money (ie, I'm paying for myself now!) I treated myself to Phantoms though I was originally planning to stay with Cor Aces (which I bought right before I quit skating as a move up from the Single Stars - but they no longer fitted my new boots). Had I not changed boots I would have never have really needed to move from the Single Stars, or even Cor Ace, even doing doubles. If you've never tried double jumps in a low level blade, you should - it's possible.

[Joan]

About 4 years ago, I switched to Pattern 99s from Phantoms. At the time, even though I had been skating, and taking lessons, for eight years already, I still could not spin with my free leg crossed over the skating leg. As soon as I got the Pattern 99s on my boots, my ability to spin improved. I don't know if the sudden change was the Pattern 99s per se, or the fact that my Phantoms had been badly sharpened over the years and lost their correct rocker shape. Anyway, I have been very happy with the Pattern 99s (and I do my own sharpening, with the Pro-filer hand-held sharpener). As far as skating level goes, I am FS4 in ISI and Bronze in USFS and can do all the jumps through lutz.