MIDWESTERNS - Adult Sectionals --RESULTS??? [Archive]

SkateGuard

03-05-2005, 09:57 PM

Hello from the Springs! I've got results, my friends! This has been a great weekend, and the altitude wasn't as bad as expected. I apologize, because these are from memory.

Champ Gold Ladies:
1. Leslie Amacker
2. Cynthia Crouse
3. Gail Sombati
4. Kristina Jameson (I think--she's new to the Adult scene)
5. Maureen Linhardt

Champ Gold Men:
1. Burt Powrey (?? on last name--he won Gold Men at AN's a few years ago)
2. Jeff (?-won Wyandotte)
3. Chris Williams
4. Tony Conte
5. Nicholas Kopp
6. Terrance Jenks

Champ Masters Ladies:
1. Jill Rumstick
2. Diedre Reeves
3. Dianalynn (??--only 25 and new to adults!)
4. Karen Hutter-Branson (who gets the gamer award for skating on a severely pulled groin)

Champ Dance
1. Harvaths
2. Areses
(note: it was close with these two, the Areses won the CD's with a 4/3 split, while the Harvaths won the OD with a 4/3 split. Basically, they tied....)

Final note: many of these people are on skateforums, so congrats to all and have a good night. And for those who questioned it, the TSA asked if I was competing and wished me good luck. Good thing that I carried them on, because three people lost luggage, including skates.....

daisies

03-05-2005, 10:01 PM

Thanks for the results, Skateguard. Did Sherry Dowlen skate in Championship Masters Ladies?

NoVa Sk8r

03-06-2005, 12:38 AM

Results are posted:
http://www.usfigureskating.org/event_details.asp?id=25761

SkateGuard

03-06-2005, 01:24 AM

Thanks for the results, Skateguard. Did Sherry Dowlen skate in Championship Masters Ladies?

Oh, I totally forgot...Sherry placed 5th. Her mother, Yvonne, also skated a beautiful program and got the only standing ovation.

I didn't see Sherry skate because she was the last skater and I was busy getting a champ gold man ready for his warmup.

Elsy2

03-06-2005, 08:12 AM

Contrats to all! I always like looking at the ordinals, and the Gold ladies sure had interesting ones! The top 5 all had one or two first place ordinals. That tell me how difficult this event was to judge for the top placements.

The gold men's was more clear cut. The first place was straight ones.

Will love to hear the firsthand reports. :bow: for all participants in this event!

kunduchaiko

03-06-2005, 08:48 AM

I just found this link on the Gold winner Burton Powley....

http://www.icepav.com/About%20Burton.htm

A triple toe with the hand over the head? Is this guy a masters skater who is sandbagging? I feel sorry for the rest of you gold men out there, but if these articles in the link above are true, everyone else this year is skating for 2nd place. While the triple toe is illegal on the Gold Level, no Gold man in the country is even close to attempting that... Heck, the majority of masters men can't do it either.

Adults are competitive within their group, but I don't think anyone outside of the adult skating community is really looking at adult national titles as "true" credentials in the same way national titles are viewed in the standard track.... really , someone who wins a Championship gold event is not really viewed any better by people in skating than someone who wins a national title on the silver or bronze level with a single lutz or single axel as their hardest jump.... so I think that it is unfortunate....sad really that someone has to base their career by saying that they are 3 time national champion. These titles are real to the adults who win them because they have worked hard for it, but to say that they are anything else besides a personal accomplishment is foolish at best.

If this article is correct, this guy would be EXTREMELY competitive to challenge for a medal in the masters level.. maybe not gold because of Larry Holliday which I guess is the reason that he does not move up after winning multiple titles... His "career" won't be as spectacular if he can't claim that he has 4 national titles to his name (maybe even leaving out the word Adult when he tells people of these titles)

Sandbagging is a huge problem that Adult skating has to work out.

Thank you,

K. Chaiko

Elsy2

03-06-2005, 09:25 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but technically this guy is not eligible for Masters, as he first transitioned from roller skating to ice in 1991, and more than likely never tested standard track, only adult track.

Whatever he achieved in roller skating, which was huge, does not apply to his figure skating as far as what level he competes.

Sounds like he is immensely talented, and his experience with choreography gives him an extra edge as well.

You can't really say he is sandbagging if he is not eligible for anything higher than adult Gold.

kunduchaiko

03-06-2005, 09:38 AM

Do you mean to say that since 1998 ,when he won his last of 3 gold titles, he has been unable to pass an intermediate moves in the field test? Come on now.....I have seen adults with far less talent do that.

K. Chaiko

Elsy2

03-06-2005, 09:44 AM

Well sure he could........and probably should. I had forgotten that you can go from Adult Gold to the standard track at Intermediate level. Is that right?

I appologise for not remembering that. All these rules going from one track to the other get confusing :frus:

coskater64

03-06-2005, 10:01 AM

Burton Powley is an exceptionally talented skater, and also a very funny and nice man.

All the gold men skated well w/o exception.

As one of the ladies it was a very tough and very strong group. I have no idea how it ended up the way it did but,--I think the judges had a hard time deciding because it was a group w/ solid skills.

la

kunduchaiko

03-06-2005, 10:03 AM

I'm not sure about it either, but many adult skaters with poor basic skating skills have passed all the moves in the field tests through the intermediate test. Someone who has advanced choreography should easily be able to pass these "simple" tests in 4 years.
This is obviously a delusional person thinking that these titles will carry his career.

K. Chaiko

Beccapoo2003

03-06-2005, 10:45 AM

Congrats to all!
How 'bout dem non-qualifying results! Anybody know?
Luv,
Becca

coskater64

03-06-2005, 10:46 AM

Which ones do you want to know? I didn't see silver ladies 2 but I think Susan H did well.

la

Michigansk8er

03-06-2005, 10:48 AM

I'm not sure at 47 I'd want to jump to Masters. Once there, you are stuck...........and the age clock starts to tick against you.

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

daisies

03-06-2005, 12:47 PM

Congrats to all! That's so cool that Yvonne Dowlen got a standing ovation. And it's wonderful to have Sherry back. I hope they will both be at AN.

Wow, two sectionals down, one to go!

BSBuster

03-06-2005, 01:10 PM

OK you guys, I'm gonna step up and call him out on this.

I just went to the link posted above that shows the Skating magazine article from 1999 Adult Nationals that says he landed a triple toe. I'm sorry, but A) I was there, and he did not land a triple toe; B) if you notice on the article that's posted where it says triple toe, it's a DIFFERENT FONT than the rest of the article, so it was obviously changed for the posting, and C) I have all my old Skating magazines, and lo and behold the May 1999 one with the article states "landing a DOUBLE toe with one arm extended ...."

Later in the article he has posted it says, "A little conservative in speed, he went on to land a double flip/double toe combination, a double salchow and double toe." Also, btw, in a different font than the rest of the article. Well, sports fans, I'm sorry to say the ACTUAL article (which btw maintains the same font throughout - imagine that!) says, "A little conservative in speed, he went on to land a double flip, but FELL ON a double salchow and double toe." So no combo, and fell on the other two. Alrighty then.

You know, I don't want to speculate on the motivation for such a thing, but I have to be honest with my opinion, and that's that it is totally LAME. But hey, maybe the guy really did land what he says he did, and he was correcting it for the record. But I can tell you for sure there was no triple.

Thank you to Kunduchaiko for posting this information.

vesperholly

03-06-2005, 01:50 PM

I also have almost all issues of SKATING magazine, dating back to 1993, and this post made me curious! I found the May '99 article. BSBuster is right, the text has been changed on the website. The original article reads:

"Powley started his program, choreographed to "Montezuma," with flair, landing a double toe with one arm extended over his head while in the air. A little conservative in speed, he went on to land a double flip but fell on a double salchow and double toe."

Really weird. I know many people who keep their old SKATING magazines, so it's not like he couldn't get checked. Plus, a graphic designer should know the difference between a serif (original text) and sans serif (fake text) font! If you notice, he also changed the article above it, "Powley" all over the article is in a different font. The actual article says his name is "Powell" while the results say "Powley", so that one is legit.

Not to mention, that would've been the first triple at ANs and rather big news - wasn't the first real triple at ANs in 2001? If you're going to lie, at least do it convincingly. :roll:

manleywoman

03-06-2005, 03:21 PM

That second article says he used his "prize-winnings" to buy an ice rink.

Ha ha ha haaaaa!! Prize winnings from Adult Nationals? The guy is either delusional, or a flat out liar.

But I'll say that IMO, on the Masters level I don't find sandbagging to be a problem. Again, I said Masters level (being a Masters skater myself).

techskater

03-06-2005, 04:19 PM

Burt is a great guy, if you've met him. If you knew his saga of owning a rink and his travelling caravan of skaters now, you'd understand why he hasn't had a chance to test up in 4 years. His prize winnings may have been from roller skating, folks.

dcden

03-06-2005, 10:08 PM

Not to mention, that would've been the first triple at ANs and rather big news - wasn't the first real triple at ANs in 2001? If you're going to lie, at least do it convincingly. :roll:

I think the year was 2002 but in any case your point is valid. I had read this article on the aforementioned website a few weeks ago and didn't even pick up on the different fonts or double checked it. I also have the magazine issue in question and had to pull it out off the shelf just to see it with my own eyes. Amazing work detectives! "Whenever there's trouble, we're there on the double, we're the bloodhound gang..."

skaternum

03-07-2005, 09:14 AM

I won't go so far as to call him a liar, but I will say that whoever wrote that stuff is ... misleading, at best. Here's my favorite description: 3 times US Champion and 1999 World Cup Silver Medalist.
How's about we make it a teensy more accurate: 3 time US Adult Gold Champion and (who knows what that World Cup stuff is supposed to be -- Mountain Cup??).

He may be a likeable enough guy, but the stuff on the website sure doesn't represent him very well!

manleywoman

03-07-2005, 10:06 AM

His prize winnings may have been from roller skating, folks.

That's not how the article writes it. That may not be his fault and more the fault of the writer, but it is flat out wrong and to put it on a website promoting himself without a proper correction is more than just misleading.

dcden

03-07-2005, 10:31 AM

Well now that's strange... if you go to the website now, the articles in question (the ones with mixed font) have been taken down, or at least do not load onto the page. Hmmm...

jazzpants

03-07-2005, 01:02 PM

Well now that's strange... if you go to the website now, the articles in question (the ones with mixed font) have been taken down, or at least do not load onto the page. Hmmm...I noticed two of the image links are no longer there! My guess would be that someone saw this thread and told him about it and he immediately took it down. Not knowing him, I have to give Burton the benefit of the doubt that he would not intentionally mislead his reputation. His taking down those links does reassure me of this. Good for him!!! :D

I also do hope that he considers moving up to Masters, given the ordinals that I saw for the Championship Adult Gold Men. They look pretty close to what I expect to see for an Championship Masters Men. But hey, I wouldn't push him to do it. I mean, probably between his Web Design career, his students, his own skating, and probably other things we don't know about... there's very little time to prepare for testing! When you get up to that level in skating, it's kinda hard to get those MITF tests out of the way. (I mean, c'mon... we don't call Novice Moves "Nervous Moves" for nothing...) :P :lol:

BSBuster

03-07-2005, 01:34 PM

I think it's pretty darn obvious he took it down because he got caught.

TimDavidSkate

03-07-2005, 03:09 PM

I also do hope that he considers moving up to Masters, given the ordinals that I saw for the Championship Adult Gold Men. They look pretty close to what I expect to see for an Championship Masters Men.

I totally agree!!!! It is very unfair. We will see how he skates at Nationals, and if he skates like a master and wins, then I know hell will break lose!!!

NoVa Sk8r

03-07-2005, 03:14 PM

Yeah, the notion of higher level skaters skating down raises more than a few eyebrows ...

And unfortunately, it doesn't just happen at the upper echelons.

dcden

03-07-2005, 03:28 PM

The website has been updated with a new article where Burton Powley addresses his "critics". I think the unfortunate thing is that had the 1999 Skating magazine article been printed in its original form from the beginning, there would have been no accusations of sandbagging (since the actual difficulty level presented in the article, while strong, is not unusual or illegal for gold level), and no need for Burton to address anything. But because the alternate version of the article appeared, with those two words "triple toe", people assumed this was a master level skater skating down.

I'll give the benefit of the doubt and say that this was just an unfortunate misunderstanding. However, it could have been completely prevented if the article had not been altered in the first place.

TimDavidSkate

03-07-2005, 03:41 PM

That second article says he used his "prize-winnings" to buy an ice rink.

Ha ha ha haaaaa!! Prize winnings from Adult Nationals? The guy is either delusional, or a flat out liar.

Hey InsideAxel? When you rollerskated, did you get $$$Prize Winnings??? Is it really enough to buy an ice rink?

jazzpants

03-07-2005, 03:47 PM

The website has been updated with a new article where Burton Powley addresses his "critics". Yeap! I read it! Yeap! I suspected that something happened that kept him from testing and competing. I'm glad to see that he's back (or at least recovering from whatever kept him from competing in the first place.) :D

TimDavidSkate

03-07-2005, 03:52 PM

Yeap! I read it! Yeap! I suspected that something happened that kept him from testing and competing. I'm glad to see that he's back (or at least recovering from whatever kept him from competing in the first place.) :D

I guess, but I think he should skate his own level

sk8hardandfast

03-07-2005, 04:03 PM

Is it really necessary to crucify this guy on this board? We all have our own battles in skating that no one on chat boards knows about.

If it's a bad back that takes us off the ice until 2 months before the competition, or a knee injury that takes a skater out for a year, or a divorce that wiped you out for 16 months - all anyone sees is that at competition you're strong if you're lucky. And people either like it or hate it.

Life does get in the way of skating and "testing up." If he's clearly stronger than the pack, he'll move up.

I think this discussion has turned too negative. I'm sure he got the message. Give him a break now, okay?

TimDavidSkate

03-07-2005, 04:13 PM

InsideAxel

03-07-2005, 04:18 PM

Hey InsideAxel? When you rollerskated, did you get $$$Prize Winnings??? Is it really enough to buy an ice rink?

As I recall. there were never any purses for USARS sanctioned competitons.

Kelton

sk8hardandfast

03-07-2005, 04:23 PM

I'm not Burton, but I have my fair share of critics, too. It sucks when people talk. I've had people talk crap about me unknowingly to my coach and my friends.

It's very mean-spirited :evil: and I thought we were adult skaters because we could handle things better than kids and their parents. Need we succumb to such caddiness?

Besides, I guess if people are talking, then at least it must've been worth talking about.

daisies

03-07-2005, 04:50 PM

I'm not Burton, but I have my fair share of critics, too. It sucks when people talk. I've had people talk crap about me unknowingly to my coach and my friends.

No offense, but I think he brought it on himself. I mean, he has this website, and it's public -- for all to see. He not only posted articles about himself, but it seems he altered them to make himself look better than he actually was. And he promotes himself with "press releases" that are written by himself, the most recent one touting his his "five gold medals at sectionals." I mean, come on ... three of those events had only two people!

When you put yourself out there like that, you have to expect criticism. You have to take the good with the bad, kinda like celebrities. It's not like people delved into his deepest, darkest secrets -- he posted that stuff so that people would read it.

manleywoman

03-07-2005, 04:52 PM

I don't know how much an ice rink costs, but I imagine even GPF prize money would nt be bearly enough, let alone roller skating events. But I'm just speculating.

As far as him testing up, I think if you've won Championship Gold at Sectionals and Nationals multiple times, it would be nice if he could find the time to take the test and move up.

TimDavidSkate

03-07-2005, 04:56 PM

No offense, but I think he brought it on himself. I mean, he has this website, and it's public -- for all to see. He not only posted articles about himself, but it seems he altered them to make himself look better than he actually was. And he promotes himself with "press releases" that are written by himself, the most recent one touting his his "five gold medals at sectionals." I mean, come on ... three of those events had only two people!

When you put yourself out there like that, you have to expect criticism. You have to take the good with the bad, kinda like celebrities. It's not like people delved into his deepest, darkest secrets -- he posted that stuff so that people would read it.

[QUOTE=manleywoman]As far as him testing up, I think if you've won Championship Gold at Sectionals and Nationals multiple times, it would be nice if he could find the time to take the test and move up.

Thank you and thank you :bow: :D

kunduchaiko

03-07-2005, 05:15 PM

whatever personal problems that burton may have had, it does not excuse the fact that he has to be deceitful in his "promotional" website.

kunduchaiko

03-07-2005, 05:16 PM

Hey DcDen,
Are you going to update your website from Easterns?

manleywoman

03-07-2005, 05:17 PM

jazzpants

03-07-2005, 06:25 PM

Who is writing these "press releases" anyway? I've never met the guy, but his site is an awful lot of self-promotion for an adult skater.Dunno! Then again, my primary coach gets quite a few press releases and he's an adult skater. (And he don't need no stinkin' website... he has his PR person...me!!!) :P :lol:

skaternum

03-07-2005, 07:39 PM

I went to the website and read the new "press release" or "article" or whatever it is. It doesn't really address the criticisms, in my opinion. It doesn't address the misrepresentations or outright lies that appeared in the articles. It merely accuses the naysayers of trying to undermine his confidence. :roll: Sorry, but if you willingly post that kind of stuff about yourself, you have to be prepared to get called out on it.

And may this be a reminder to us all to not take ourselves and our adult skating too seriously.

ETA: Apparently if you question the veracity of his statements, you're one of the "critics and crazies who try to intimidate" him. A quote from the latest press release.

dcden

03-07-2005, 07:48 PM

Hey DcDen,
Are you going to update your website from Easterns?

I guess on a rainy day I will, but I've been quite busy lately and will be so for the next few weeks. I am dancing in my chorus' upcoming concert so that is taking up some precious free time. I was happy just to be able to make my website frame-based... I'm taking a web development class now and am geeking out with it.

The only championship event I watched at Easterns was Master Ladies, which has been commented on in a separate thread. I'll try to add some interesting comments and observations after my concert is finished.

In the meantime, perhaps it's a good idea to provide guidelines for personal websites (a number of us have sites of our own). I personally keep descriptions of my skating elements to a minimum, but if I do include these I make sure they are accurate. I'm my own worst critic and I won't give myself credit for doing a move I haven't done. In general I just try to focus on whether I was generally pleased or not pleased with my own performance.

I stay away from commenting on my competitors' programs (unless I can do so in a complimentary way), and I certainly do not air grievances or blame judges if I feel I should have been ranked higher. I also do not try to second guess results of events.

In addition I try to mention things that are not related to my event but to the overall competition, like other programs that I liked, the way the host club has run the event, or who I saw and caught up with at the venue.

In general, one thing I've learned about personal websites is that anyone can and will discover them, so be careful about what you write. I've seen other such websites that have posted very catty or hurtful comments, and I wouldn't want comments on my website to be interpreted that way.

These are just my ideas. I try to have fun with my site and also include a lot of non-skating stuff. Designing your own website can be a fun hobby, but it's one that requires thought, care, and consideration of your potential audience. (A spelling/grammar checker doesn't hurt either!)

manleywoman

03-07-2005, 07:54 PM

I went to the website and read the new "press release" or "article" or whatever it is. It doesn't really address the criticisms, in my opinion. It doesn't address the misrepresentations or outright lies that appeared in the articles. It merely accuses the naysayers of trying to undermine his confidence. :roll: Sorry, but if you willingly post that kind of stuff about yourself, you have to be prepared to get called out on it.

I agree. I wonder if his students have ever actually read that doctored article and questioned the claimed triple.

So back to the original topic . . . how were the Masters Ladies at Mids? Nice to see Yvonne Dowling getting a standing O! I remember seeing her at Ann Arbor Nationals many years back. She's amazing.

kunduchaiko

03-07-2005, 08:14 PM

from the website:

"These few people who are trying to discourage my comeback will only find it will make me stronger!"

WHO IS THIS?? KATARINA WITT?

On a more positive note, Burton plans on adding even more difficulty to his program before Adult Nationals. "Mids was a good test for me, although I skated well, there is always room for improvement. Adding the double flip/double toe combination and double loop combination that went missing from my final freeskate will be a priority for Nationals."

WHO IS WRITING THIS STUFF?

coskater64

03-07-2005, 08:17 PM

Yvonne skated great, she landed a lutz very nicely. Pretty good for an 80 year old woman. Her spins were also very nice. The 3rd place skater was a very sweet young lady all of 25. Jilly who won skated a beautiful soft program w/ almost everything being done well and w/ lovely extension. It was a nice event to watch.

la

daisies

03-07-2005, 08:33 PM

WHO IS WRITING THIS STUFF?

Just a guess, but I think he is.

SkateGuard

03-07-2005, 08:46 PM

Masters ladies was a very odd event. I'm not going to go into too many details because I was preparing my dance partner for Champ Gold Men at the same time....

First was Karen HutterBranson, who had a horrid groin injury days before the event. Her program was fun and cute (she did the Austin Powers number last year), but she just grimaced through her program. Every time she skated close to the audience, we just cheered and cheered and cheered.

Next was Jill Rumstick. Jill did a nice program, with float over the ice, pointed toes, and three different doubles (sal, toe, loop). She also did 2sal-2toe. She just stepped out slightly on the 2flip. It was a solid program, but with the heavyweights to come, Jill didn't think she had qualified--she was hoping top 5. Though my dance partner looked at me as soon as she was done and said, "She qualified." Hmmm. I think I'm going to ask him for lottery numbers....

Then the strangest thing happened. It became a splatfest. Skaters would start their programs, looking very nice and strong, and splat! Axels, fall. 2 toe, fall. I don't know what was in the air. It was really a shame, because I had seen many of these ladies practice and was looking forward to a very competitive event.

Diedre Reeves had driven to Colorado from the Milwaukee area, so she was zonked and missed an easy 2flip. No double-double, but she was the only 2 lutz that I noticed. Plus, she looked very winded at the end of the program--she didn't even try the 3toe.

Yvonne Dowlen was the highlight of the event. She's got to be nearly 80 at this point. She was the only one who skated clean, but she didn't have the technical skills, nor the speed of the rest of the skaters.

I'm sorry that I missed Sherry Dowlen's program, but she skated last and like I said, I was busy with my Champ Gold man dance partner....I didn't see anything major, so I have no idea why she got 5th.

I will say, though, if any Masters ladies from Easterns or Pac Coasts are reading this, I really think that both Karen and Diedre didn't skate up to their obvious potential and will probably show up as different skaters to Kansas City.

As for the Burt thing, I will say that it is hard to go from nothing to Intermediate moves. A moves test is very different than a freestyle or figure test.....and I'm finding it humorous that nobody has said on these boards that Chris Williams should have moved up after winning gold last year. Then again, Chris doesn't have his own website, nor does he go around saying he's a National Champion.

jazzpants

03-07-2005, 09:02 PM

And may this be a reminder to us all to not take ourselves and our adult skating too seriously.ITA!!! However, also keep in mind that he is a skating coach and he has to keep a good reputation of being a successful skater to keep his skating coach business going. Promotion comes with the territory...

With that in mind, I sincerely hope that Burton is not writing this stuff himself. I still want to give him the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps if he lists his source for each of the articles (author and the media company... or even better a link to the website that has his article???) that might help his rep a bit.

Just my thoughts...

sk8er1964

03-07-2005, 09:35 PM

As for the Burt thing, I will say that it is hard to go from nothing to Intermediate moves. A moves test is very different than a freestyle or figure test.....and I'm finding it humorous that nobody has said on these boards that Chris Williams should have moved up after winning gold last year. Then again, Chris doesn't have his own website, nor does he go around saying he's a National Champion.

OK, I wasn't going to say anything, but... (BTW, SkateGuard, thank you SO much for your support at Mids. It meant a lot to me! This response isn't in contradiction to yours, only building off of it.)

First, if you have strong basic skating skills (ie did mid-level figures or were at a high level [6 or above] in ISI as a kid), IMO the Intermediate MIF test is not that hard to prepare for. I did it over a summer. I think our mutual friend, the 2nd place finisher in the ladies event, could do it without breaking a sweat. It's not an easy test, by no means, but it is definitely do-able for folks that skated competitively (ice or roller) as a kid. (The Novice moves, on the other hand, look totally evil - not looking forward to those.)

Second, Chris is a totally wonderful skater. I love him and his skating. However, you need double-double combinations, and doubles higher than a loop to be competitive at masters, especially the men.

Third, I met Burton, and liked him. He is a terrific skater and a very nice person. He has that, I don't know, that feel to his skating that screams masters. He has the show presentation, and he has many of the jumps, combos, and spins that masters have. I can fully understand that he has had to face challenges that have kept him at the Gold level instead of moving up. I would hope that he would make a serious attempt of moving up after this year. In any event, I feel rather bad for his fellow competitors, who are more typical (as far as I have seen) of an adult gold male. I also feel bad for the man who would have (should have?) qualified if Burton hadn't been skating at a level that was clearly below his capabilities. It is truly a race for second place in Championship Gold this year at AN.

This is JMHO. If I offend, I am sorry. I don't know what I would have done in his situation -- probably competed at the level I was qualified for too and damn the public opinion. It's easy to judge and hard to put yourself in the other person's skates. It's just a hard situation.....

daisies

03-07-2005, 09:54 PM

TimDavidSkate

03-07-2005, 09:57 PM

I guess this is what will be the talk at Kansas....

By the way who in this board will be going?

phoenix

03-07-2005, 10:08 PM

However, also keep in mind that he is a skating coach and he has to keep a good reputation of being a successful skater to keep his skating coach business going. Promotion comes with the territory...

Not like this it doesn't. Misrepresenting yourself / your accomplishments can get you in serious trouble with your club or the PSA if anyone notices or cares to look into it. I've never come across a coach who does press releases, except for their students. It isn't necessary--everyone at your rink/club knows what you've done (the club would probably note a big competition win in their newsletter or website, to spread the word amongst the skating community), & you list it on your resume or bio if your club has a coaches page on their site. You put your test ranking and/or PSA ratings on your business card maybe.

Also, re. the press releases/ "articles"--very possible he's putting them together himself--he is a graphic designer, after all. They may never have been published anywhere but his own website.

The other thing about the moves tests--I was going to chime in & say that for anyone with really solid basics & the years of skating that he has, the tests don't get remotely challenging until you hit Intermediate--maybe even novice, for someone with as much skating mileage as he has.

Proof: I started on moves 11 months ago, having finished my adult silver dances. I never took a lesson on them until about a week before any given test, and then really just to be sure I was doing the patterns/entrances/exits right. AND, I didn't practice them much--used them for a warmup, running through each element once, then got on with my dance practicing. I passed each test first time out, higher scores than needed. I'm just about ready to test my intermediate, which has been the first one that I really had to practice & that had any elements I wasn't comfortable with right off the bat. I don't mean this to sound arrogant--I just started on low level tests as a higher level skater to begin with, and they weren't hard because I had good basics.

A skater like Burt would be *far* beyond my skating skills, & I can guarantee you would have no trouble shooting through the tests necessary to move up to Masters.

sk8er1964

03-07-2005, 10:31 PM

I guess this is what will be the talk at Kansas....

By the way who in this board will be going?

I'll be there in open Gold II thanks to my lovely :evil: performance at mids, and in masters interp.

I'm looking forward to meeting you!

SkateGuard

03-07-2005, 10:36 PM

OK, I wasn't going to say anything, but... (BTW, SkateGuard, thank you SO much for your support at Mids. It meant a lot to me! This response isn't in contradiction to yours, only building off of it.)

First, if you have strong basic skating skills (ie did mid-level figures or were at a high level [6 or above] in ISI as a kid), IMO the Intermediate MIF test is not that hard to prepare for. I did it over a summer. I think our mutual friend, the 2nd place finisher in the ladies event, could do it without breaking a sweat. It's not an easy test, by no means, but it is definitely do-able for folks that skated competitively (ice or roller) as a kid. (The Novice moves, on the other hand, look totally evil - not looking forward to those.)

Second, Chris is a totally wonderful skater. I love him and his skating. However, I don't think that he is a competitive masters level skater -- yet -- I have no doubt that he can get there -- any more than last year's ladies gold champ is (and could be). You need double-double combinations, and doubles higher than a loop to be competitive at masters, especially the men.

No offense taken. You built on it perfectly. I didn't get a chance to see Burt skate, 'cause I was a bit busy "coaching" my dance partner, who competed against him twice. (And did it at altitude while starting a cold! I spent all day Sunday feeding him Vitamin C!)

I've been teasing Chris for a while about "sandbagging." All of you who were there probably know why. ;) Plus, Chris isn't about the medals...he just likes to skate. The total antithesis of this website. I'd be afraid if Chris got a website.....he'd be bragging about his injuries and falls!

Our dear friend would probably pass the Intermediate moves on the first try because she went from pre-bronze moves to Gold free in 16 months or something--all done at a club that is notorious about failing moves tests if they're not perfect. She's taken all the moves tests, and her Intermediate moves are looking pretty good.....we'll see.

Finally, I was so glad to see you having fun on Sat. night. You are a good, caring person, and really deserved to enjoy your vacation!

TimDavidSkate

03-07-2005, 11:03 PM

I'll be there in open Gold II thanks to my lovely :evil: performance at mids, and in masters interp.

I'm looking forward to meeting you!

Likewise, what's your name by the way? :D

techskater

03-08-2005, 07:06 PM

RXSkater

03-08-2005, 07:44 PM

I went to whois.net and register.com, where the ownership of websites are easily researched, and Burton Powley is clearly listed as the Administrative Contact for icepav.com. In other words, he is likely the sole person to post and update on the web site in question. As such, his behavior is highly questionable.

Also, if my memory serves me, rink owners are ineligible for USFSA (US Figure Skating) competitions; even former rink owners are ineligible UNLESS they are reinstated. Has Mr. Powley been reinstated? If not, someone should tell the fifth-place guy to keep practicing.

skaternum

03-08-2005, 07:53 PM

I want to know why everyone thinks this is Burt's personal website? It appears to be part of something else like a club wesite, so it's possible that he doesn't even know it's there or if he's aware of it that there are inaccuracies.Well, it's obviously the website for the Capitol Ice Academy, which he used to(?) own/run and currently serves as its "advisor." And the website is clearly all about him. On the main menu at the top of every page is a link that says "About Burton." And there's another big ol' link for his "Design Services." And the webmaster managed to get up an article with quotes from him right away, in response to the criticisms here. So ... 2 + 2 = ??

Next, Burt DOES have a Masters level quality to his skating but there have been things that have kept him from testing up. One of those things has been the strange USFS rules about rink owners actually participating in judged events.According to the "About Burton" stuff on the website, the arena he owned closed in May 2002.

If everyone is so concerned about Burt, talk to him at AN's.Most of us here didn't go looking for dirt on Burt. But at the least, he's got to know that that website exists. And he's got to know that it's full of inaccuracies and misrepresentations. (Since when did Mtn. Cup become a "Worlds"??) If I found out that any of my coaches allowed such a thing, I'd have a real hard time respecting them as a professionals. Yes, there appears to be one or two individuals who want to crucify him, but most of us aren't that rabid. But we have every right to comment on misleading, unprofessonal junk on a website that was clearly designed for public consumption.

manleywoman

03-08-2005, 07:54 PM

I want to know why everyone thinks this is Burt's personal website? It appears to be part of something else like a club wesite, so it's possible that he doesn't even know it's there or if he's aware of it that there are inaccuracies. I know if I were in those shoes (which I am not) I would want people to cut me some slack.

Considering on the home page of the Ice Pavilion/Capitol Ice Academy of Iowa (the main site) it has the following:

1) a large link to Burton's web and design services. Which has nothing to do with a skating club, so why this is there is odd to begin with unless this is a personal page.

2) a link to Burton's email at the bottom to send mail to him for questions or comments about the site, which strongly suggests he is web master of this site. Which means he would have control about what goes on it.

3) a link both at top and bottom called "About Burton," though no other coach gets their own special page.

I have a very hard time beleiving that Burton isn't aware that all this stuff about him is up there, whether it's his personal home page of the skating club's page.

The concerns about him on this thread have been two fold:
A) was that he was possibly sandbagging.
B) that he purposefully misrepresented in a LARGE way his skills and abilities, to the point of altering a journalist's words. (Which could potentially cause future issues if a parent of one of his students thought he basically lied about his skill set)

I'm sure he's a nice guy. I'm sure he didn't mean to intentionally sandbag. Sandbagging happens accidentally all the time due to life, injuries, lack of time, not understanding your level requirements, etc. I can beleive those two whole-heartedly.

But you'll have a hard time convincing me that he didn't know about the articles and the gross misinformation in them.

And I think skaternum is completely correct that it's lame that he's addressing his so-called naysayers who are rightly or wrongly accusing him of sandbagging in his latest "press release" rather than fess up to the falsehoods he displayed for all the world to see.

Edited to add: seems everyone before saaid basically the same!

SkateGuard

03-08-2005, 11:25 PM

I'm thinking that the Burton stuff needs to go to another thread or something. I check in here every day, looking for a discussion of how people skated, the fun we had, etc. Instead, this whole website thing blossomed. :evil:

It's unfortunate that all of this happened. I will say that he is legitimate...the USFS would not have allowed him to skate Champ Gold against the rules. And yes, they do check these things out at this level.

But can we please have another thread for the good stuff? I did a very long post summarizing Champ Masters ladies, and it was just swallowed by this controversy. :cry:

vesperholly

03-09-2005, 12:14 AM

Where is the press release in which he addresses his naysayers? I couldn't find it, but admittedly I didn't look very hard. :oops:

jazzpants

03-09-2005, 12:22 AM

But can we please have another thread for the good stuff? I did a very long post summarizing Champ Masters ladies, and it was just swallowed by this controversy. :cry:On that note... :mrgreen:

Congrats to you Championship Adults Gold Ladies who qualified for Nationals. As for sk8er1964... go kick some ICE BUTTS at Nationals in the Gold II event and show 'em what stuff you got!!! :mrgreen:

Nice to see that Chris Williams is skating to his old form and qualifies for Nationals as well too!!! Anyone got that video of him doing the one foot program like two weeks before Sectionals??? (I still think he was NUTS!!!) :lol: :P 8-)

sk8er1964

03-09-2005, 01:05 PM

As for sk8er1964... go kick some ICE BUTTS at Nationals in the Gold II event and show 'em what stuff you got!!! :mrgreen:

Thanks, Jazzpants. I might just try to do that! 8-)

Nice to see that Chris Williams is skating to his old form and qualifies for Nationals as well too!!! Anyone got that video of him doing the one foot program like two weeks before Sectionals??? (I still think he was NUTS!!!) :lol: :P 8-)

Chris is simply awesome - both as a skater and as a person! We tried to take his skates away from him when he was one footed, but he just kept plowing through to the mens locker room where we couldn't follow :P (For those of you who don't know, Chris sustained a deep skate blade slash to his lower calf about 4 weeks or so ago.)

Likewise, what's your name by the way?

I'll pm you. Although many of you here know who I am, I'd rather not publish it here! ;)

RXSkater

03-09-2005, 04:57 PM

As a former competitive roller skater myself, I was somewhat curious about Burton's claim of numerous regional and national titles in artistic roller skating. After pouring through my own files, which date back to 1976, I was unable to find one event that Burton won at the national level. Indeed, I couldn't even find national event where he even won a medal--at least not in the nationals sponsored by the RSA (formerly RSROA), the governing body of the sport. Admittedly, my records are not completely extensive, but I am somewhat satisfied that I did a thorough search.

Regarding his claim of being "World Cup Artistic Roller Skating Champion in 1983, in Auckland, NZ," I am equally lost. Auckland hosted the World Artistic Roller Skating Championships twice--but in 1981 and 1987. The 1983 World Championships were in Fort Worth, TX, and Burton was not on the World Team.

It is unfortunate that the topic of Burton's alleged fictionalizations have dominated the discussion thread, but it is worthy discussion on three points:

1) These apparent grandiose exaggerations, particularly from a "National Champion," are embarrassing for both Adult Figure Skating and the sport in general and should be addressed.

2) If these alleged falsifications were published with the desire of augmenting business, whether it be coaching or product endorsements of any kind, then it could be interpreted as an illegal act, punishable under Federal law because it occurred over an interstate medium (the Internet).

3) And if Burton indeed used "prizewinnings" to purchase an ice rink, then he obviously participated in a non-sanctioned competition, since USFSA competitions do not offer prizes for Adult events. As such, he was ineligible to compete at the 2005 Adult Midwestern Championships, unless of course he had been reinstated. Has he been reinstated? But even so, it is obvious from the information on icepav.com that Burton may still be involved in the daily decision-making of his home ice rink, meaning that he probably is a rink manager by the definition in the current U.S. Figure Skating Rulebook and thereby restricted from competing.

manleywoman

03-09-2005, 05:06 PM

Not to mention he may have violated copyright infringement by altering a published news article, but that would be something that the original author would have to pursue.

SkateGuard

03-09-2005, 08:44 PM

In any event, I feel rather bad for his fellow competitors, who are more typical (as far as I have seen) of an adult gold male. I also feel bad for the man who would have (should have?) qualified if Burton hadn't been skating at a level that was clearly below his capabilities.

I'm sorry I missed it before.....

Considering how happy that 5th place man is right now, I wouldn't feel bad. He was just thrilled to skate well after coming back from two serious injuries sustained back-to-back. IMO, he should have qualified anyway. But four judges disagreed with me....if the panel had been different, the results would have been different.

phoenix

03-10-2005, 10:14 AM

As a former competitive roller skater myself, I was somewhat curious about Burton's claim of numerous regional and national titles in artistic roller skating. After pouring through my own files, which date back to 1976, I was unable to find one event that Burton won at the national level. Indeed, I couldn't even find national event where he even won a medal--at least not in the nationals sponsored by the RSA (formerly RSROA), the governing body of the sport. Admittedly, my records are not completely extensive, but I am somewhat satisfied that I did a thorough search.

Regarding his claim of being "World Cup Artistic Roller Skating Champion in 1983, in Auckland, NZ," I am equally lost. Auckland hosted the World Artistic Roller Skating Championships twice--but in 1981 and 1987. The 1983 World Championships were in Fort Worth, TX, and Burton was not on the World Team.

Is it possible that he won national / world titles at a lower level than seniors (assuming that there is a comparable level structure to ice skating)? So could he have been something like the Novice national champion?

This has made me very curious! How/why would someone make claims that can be so easily verified? I did a quick search on Google & there was a notice about a loan from the city while building the rink, which also referred to him as a national champion & international competitor....... while technically true, I think this is very misleading, and frankly, it seems intentionally misleading. I don't know if there are any written policies within the PSA, but it's certainly a well-known unwritten rule that as a coach you list your test or competition results as "adult" if that's what they are.

Think about it: a coach with their adult gold moves, for example, could simply list "gold moves" on their bio, which is implying that they're qualified to coach through senior moves--hardly true!!

ETA: it seems to me he would be better served putting his energy into testing as high as he can through the standard track, rather than winning adult titles to publicize himself--he'd be far more qualified to coach, which is what he seems to be aiming at anyway. He'd surely be able to do all the moves tests, & should get most if not all of the freestyle too. The most you need for senior is a double lutz, which I'm sure he could do. (I'm making the assumption he's only tested adult). At least in my area, a gold medal from testing standard brings far more credibility to a coach than a gold medal from an adult competition.

jazzpants

03-10-2005, 10:49 AM

At least in my area, a gold medal from testing standard brings far more credibility to a coach than a gold medal from an adult competition.Dunno... my coach is doing okay coaching (albeit mostly adult students) and to my knowledge has done mainly adult competitions *shrug* He's gotten quite a few students competing at the Adult Nationals level (Bronze or above) either at local competitions or even at Adults Sectionals/Nationals and a few more who CAN compete at that level but chooses not to compete.

The other thing to note: just because one can compete at that level does not make that person a better coach. If I went based on that record, I would have take lessons from at least one of several of our US Nationals Senior competitors. I'd rather seen in my case a steady list of students that have made it thru because of that coach. I saw results in at least a couple of my coach's students and that spoke louder than any of his own skating trophies about his coaching... (though I am proud to have one of his trophies from a local competition stashed on my bookcase next to a couple of my own medals at Skate SF. AWWWWW!!!) :mrgreen:

phoenix

03-10-2005, 11:12 AM

Dunno... my coach is doing okay coaching (albeit mostly adult students) and to my knowledge has done mainly adult competitions *shrug* He's gotten quite a few students competing at the Adult Nationals level (Bronze or above) either at local competitions or even at Adults Sectionals/Nationals and a few more who CAN compete at that level but chooses not to compete.

Yes, if he just wants to coach adults, it is much less important. Also true that the student can certainly outshine the coach if they're a good coach (I'm kind of hoping for that with my own students!! lol). I've hardly ever competed, but I'm testing standard for the sole purpose that I want to be able to coach anyone who wants to work with me. My lack of experience in competing may well be a hindrance, but not much I can do about that (though coach & I have tossed around the idea of doing Lake Placid this year.......yikes!!!! 8O )

sk8er1964

03-10-2005, 12:45 PM

I'm sorry I missed it before.....

Considering how happy that 5th place man is right now, I wouldn't feel bad. He was just thrilled to skate well after coming back from two serious injuries sustained back-to-back. IMO, he should have qualified anyway. But four judges disagreed with me....if the panel had been different, the results would have been different.

Yeah, I heard that, as well as other competitors' comments that Burton's simply giving them more to shoot for. The Mids Gold men are a class act. :)

jazzpants

03-10-2005, 12:56 PM

Yes, if he just wants to coach adults, it is much less important. Also true that the student can certainly outshine the coach if they're a good coach (I'm kind of hoping for that with my own students!! lol). I've hardly ever competed, but I'm testing standard for the sole purpose that I want to be able to coach anyone who wants to work with me. My lack of experience in competing may well be a hindrance, but not much I can do about that (though coach & I have tossed around the idea of doing Lake Placid this year.......yikes!!!! 8O )Nah! He coaches kids too! It's just that with the way his schedule works out, the majority of his students are adults. (He does a second job besides coaching.)

Having the competition experience, I think, would be a good thing for you if you haven't done any competitions before. It better helps you to prepare your students for their own competition AND you would be a better support system for them. And I hear Lake Placid is a WONDERFUL place to skate!!! :mrgreen:

Edited to add:
And with that, I will add the sentiments of one of his Adult Gold Men competitors on another board... LEAVE BURT ALONE!!! :P Geez, I don't know about you guys, but I'm getting sick of reading about him!!! And as that Adult Gold Men said, you got better things to do than to do research on Burt... namely skate!!! :P

SweetestThing

03-10-2005, 02:43 PM

Going back to the results topic of this thread, can anyone comment on the Championship Gold and Gold I Ladies? I skated Silver I last year at Mids and Nationals and did fairly well so was ready to move up. I passed my Adult Gold Moves and Fresstyle with intentions to compete this year, but then my synchro team competed in Switzerland and that took all of my skating $$$!! :roll: So needless to say, I just couldn't afford to compete individually this year. But I would love to hear what all those awesome Gold ladies are doing so that I know what to strive towards for next year's Mids and Nationals!

Congrats everyone at Mids!
Thanks!

NoVa Sk8r

03-10-2005, 03:00 PM

The results from the entire competition are posted here:
http://www.sk8stuffmore.com/comps/05/r05adumids.pdf

SweetestThing

03-10-2005, 03:44 PM

Thanks for the link to the results!
But did anyone get to actually watch the Gold Ladies events? I am just curious because I didn't get to watch Mids (I live in Colorado but I couldn't make it that day - bummer! :cry:). So I was just curious if anyone did get to watch and what jumps and spins were being performed. I can land an axel, axel combo and really inconsistent double sals and double toes, so I just wanted to know if I would even be competitive at the Gold level for next year. Just want to know what I need to work on and improve!
Thanks again!

coskater64

03-10-2005, 05:05 PM

Well I saw 90% of the group and can comment heavily on my skate. It was a very fast a fluid group, the only clean double sal was from Maureen the rest were just a little cheated or hooked by my eye. Footwork was good throughout the group especially Cindy aka Cinderella. The new gal Kristina was very pretty w/ excellent lines and huge jumps. Gail was fast and powerful w/ her charming program to Wizard of Oz. Courtney did a good job w/ beautiful spin positons and a very soft knee. If you look @ the ordinals you can see it could have gone any direction. The last 1/2 of Marie's program was very nice and she made it through nicely.

I skated my program the wrong direction so I had to look at the tape to see if I have a funny look on my face once I figured it out. Both my doubles were cheated by about 1/2 to 1/4 but on one foot. spins okay, footwork okay and no big splats. What more could you ask... oh yeah, -- And a lot of luck.

;-)la :lol: :lol:

SweetestThing

03-10-2005, 05:41 PM

Thanks for your comments coskater64! It sounds like all the gold ladies had very nice skates with impressive jump attempts. I guess I have a lot of work to do to keep up with you all!

Good luck to you and everyone at Nationals!

SkateGuard

03-10-2005, 07:09 PM

The new gal Kristina was very pretty w/ excellent lines and huge jumps.

Kristina is a gold level dancer with beautiful carriage and a gorgeous serpentine footwork sequence. She stumbled on the end of it, but it was in the best possible spot--the judges' blind spot! (all skaters know where I'm talking about....)

Well, the new sectional champ was being modest. Considering she was the only veteran of the event who trains at altitude, she really put out a strong, solid program. I had no idea she was backwards until she told me about it later! :)

Yes, Maureen did the only clean double--a salchow out of a bauer. Many had two clean axels in their programs. A lot of the flatlanders had drops in speed at the ends of their programs (for obvious reasons)--and to trumpet Cindy and Maureen --they skated the open event that was scheduled only a couple hours beforehand (and they're "flatlanders"). So could someone explain to me why the bronzes and pre-bronzes were before the open gold/master's events? If I had done the scheduling, I would have given the gold/masters skaters plenty of rest before the Champ rounds....

BTW, I am very proud to call two of those Gold men my clubmates.... :D

RXSkater

03-10-2005, 07:27 PM

Well, it seems that Burton may have understood the err of his ways. The web site has changed again, with all the "facts" in question removed without explanation, including the article from the Des Moines Business Record. Fishy, fishy, fishy....

starskate6.0

03-10-2005, 08:56 PM

G-day
Well....Iv been in Australia for 2 weeks and I see this, :?? I have seen much about Burt Powrey ( Is that right). Anyway, Iv looked at the web page and thought I would add a thought here.
Most of you know me, and most of you know last year I skated in silver because I ran out of time to test into gold before Nationals. I would have skated gold if I had the time to test. In Burts defence there may be a situation that prevents him from testing up. I am now at gold and feel that this is where I realy belong despite the fact that I have never won at this level. I don't expect to win this year and Ill be lucky enough to even medel at all. Easterns where great with 8 skaters, it was a tough call for the judges and very close, but we all got to know each other and it was a great event because we made it that way by our approach to the event. We all cheered each other on and I watched every skater do some realy awsom moves. :bow:
I too was a roller skater for about 5 years before I went to the ice. I did ok on wheels but not even close to the national champion of that time. That was out of my league and I got on the ice at 23 but could not skate backwards at the time. My career has been very different from the norm and formal training did not come till much later in life.
Perhapes Burts situation has forced him to do things a little different as well.
Iv not seen him skate, I don't know him, but Im alway's willing to take people how i personaly find them. I look forward to meeting you Burt, I hope you will come say hello. :D
I will be at Nationals to cheer all the Gold men on. We are Adults, we support each other and a great performance is alway's a personal victory. Regardless of 1st or last place it's a victory and a step to improved performance. :D By the way Iv tried 3 revs a couple of times ( K-splat, K-splat ) :lol: Lucky to get some of the doubles, but I love trying.

The greatest risk in life is not taking one. :mrgreen:

starskate6.0

03-10-2005, 09:04 PM

I guess this is what will be the talk at Kansas....

By the way who in this board will be going?
Im going see you there.

Star :D

starskate6.0

03-10-2005, 09:18 PM

RXSkater

03-11-2005, 04:11 PM

If everyone is so concerned about Burt, talk to him at AN's. He's a fabulous guy, loads of fun, and really quite interesting and is willing to listen to your opinion on his skating.

Well, I hope he's listening now. It's not cool to be fraudulent about one's credentials to secure a loan for $50,000.00. For that, he might owe the City Council of Des Moines a huge apology.

It's not cool to compete in a USFS competition when you know you're not eligible (such as when you're a rink owner/manager or Skating Director). For that, he might owe the eligible Gold Men competitors at the 2005 Adult Midwesterns another huge apology.

It's not cool to rewrite a SKATING magazine article to make it read that you were the first person to acheive a triple jump at Adult Nationals. For that, he apparently owes two apologies: one to the writer of the article and one to Larry Holiday, the man who actually landed that first triple.

It's not cool to claim to be the 1983 World Cup Artistic Roller Skating Champion. That distinction belongs to Tim McGuire of Flint, MI.

It's not cool to claim to be the 1997 U.S. Adult Gold Men's Champion. That title belongs to John-Patrick Hull of New York, NY.

Frankly, I don't need to go on, but if I ever acheived the things that Larry Holiday, Tim McGuire, or John-Patrick Hull did, only to have a lesser skater publicly steal them from me, I'd hope that my fellow skaters would go to bat for me, rather than saying, "let's talk about something else...."

manleywoman

03-11-2005, 05:04 PM

Well, I hope he's listening now. It's not cool to be fraudulent about one's credentials to secure a loan for $50,000.00.

Wow. That's a pretty bold statement. Where's the proof?

It's not cool to compete in a USFS competition when you know you're not eligible (such as when you're a rink owner/manager or Skating Director).

My understanding, though i admit haven't double checked the rulebook myself, is that being a rink owner does not make you ineligible to compete.

As far as the other claims to being the first to land a triple, changing am article, lying about credentials, etc, I don't disagree with you.

It's too bad really, since I've heard from many that he really is a nice guy, and actually ran into another adult skater last night who said the same.

starskate6.0

03-11-2005, 07:05 PM

Well, I hope he's listening now. It's not cool to be fraudulent about one's credentials to secure a loan for $50,000.00. For that, he might owe the City Council of Des Moines a huge apology.

It's not cool to compete in a USFS competition when you know you're not eligible (such as when you're a rink owner/manager or Skating Director). For that, he might owe the eligible Gold Men competitors at the 2005 Adult Midwesterns another huge apology.

It's not cool to rewrite a SKATING magazine article to make it read that you were the first person to acheive a triple jump at Adult Nationals. For that, he apparently owes two apologies: one to the writer of the article and one to Larry Holiday, the man who actually landed that first triple.

It's not cool to claim to be the 1983 World Cup Artistic Roller Skating Champion. That distinction belongs to Tim McGuire of Flint, MI.

It's not cool to claim to be the 1997 U.S. Adult Gold Men's Champion. That title belongs to John-Patrick Hull of New York, NY.

Frankly, I don't need to go on, but if I ever acheived the things that Larry Holiday, Tim McGuire, or John-Patrick Hull did, only to have a lesser skater publicly steal them from me, I'd hope that my fellow skaters would go to bat for me, rather than saying, "let's talk about something else...."
RX
I respect your opinion .However I think I will just show up to skate, do my best and see how it play's out. Im not defending or endorsing any one here ,Im just interested in the subject . I skate for skating sake , win or lose, It will be a victory for me to skate well. :D See you in KC :D

Michigansk8er

03-11-2005, 07:07 PM

Wow. That's a pretty bold statement. Where's the proof?

Here's a link to the info:
http://www.ci.des-moines.ia.us/mayor_council/agendas/2000_as/blue/00-055.htm

sk8er1964

03-11-2005, 07:55 PM

I reread this thread tonight, and the thing that struck me the most about Mids, on a personal level, was how wonderful adult skating really is.

Last year I qualified for the championship event at nationals. This year I placed last. Almost all of my competitors, on that day, came up to me and hugged me, and gave me encouraging words. Quite a few people who were not in my event did the same. It's because they knew I didn't skate my best, and they knew that it hurt deeply - not because of the placing or the medal, but because I didn't feel good about my performance.

Since Mids, I have seen comment after comment (mostly on another, closed site) praising the good things about my program. The good things that others have seen in my skating in the past. The good things about me as a person. They didn't have to say these things - but they truly care about their skating friends, about their buddies in arms.

Last year the lady who won my event finished out of the medals. She buckled down, improved what she felt needed improving (very well, I might add) and won this year. I think if she hadn't won, she would still have been satisfied because of the great improvement she had made in her skating.

I hope I am like her in the next 360 or so days. I hope I am like all of my fellow competitors - from first to seventh - in my love for the sport, my joy (most of the time ;) ) in my own skating, and the friendships I have made along the way. That's what adult skating is all about.

OK, I'm done being sappy.... ;)

coskater64

03-11-2005, 08:26 PM

Never be anyone but who you are, a very decent kind person who shares a love for an incredibly difficult and consuming sport- with all of us.

la :oops: :oops:

manleywoman

03-11-2005, 09:25 PM

Here's a link to the info:
http://www.ci.des-moines.ia.us/mayor_council/agendas/2000_as/blue/00-055.htm

I'm not seeing any fabrications of his titles on that though. He is a National Champion, technically, and as far as anyone has proven here, ahas been all the other listed items as well. So I don't think there's anything scandalous about the loan.

Last year I qualified for the championship event at nationals. This year I placed last. Almost all of my competitors, on that day, came up to me and hugged me, and gave me encouraging words. Quite a few people who were not in my event did the same. It's because they knew I didn't skate my best, and they knew that it hurt deeply - not because of the placing or the medal, but because I didn't feel good about my performance.

Same thing happened to me. I had a great shot at qualifying this year, and I have qualified in the past for Masters, but I had an uncharacteristically inconsistant skate. I got tons of support from everyone around me, and it reminded me about why adult skating is so great. I plan on buckling down for the next 350-something days to come back next year with guns blazing!

SkateGuard

03-11-2005, 10:46 PM

It's not cool to compete in a USFS competition when you know you're not eligible (such as when you're a rink owner/manager or Skating Director). For that, he might owe the eligible Gold Men competitors at the 2005 Adult Midwesterns another huge apology.

Now wait. I am a clubmate of two of those men, including the one who placed 5th, and they really, really don't care, so why do you? Both came back from Colorado and started really working on doubles....I've never seen either one of them so diligent. They love to skate and skate well....and you never know what will happen at a competition.

Also, what makes you think that the USFS hasn't checked this out? What makes you think that the USFS won't check this out before AN's? Trust me, if he is ineligible, he will not be welcome at KC. Unless he got married and changed his name :P , the USFS has his name and credentials...especially if he's been coaching all this time.

Look, I got nailed on here because of a similar issue and later learned that my facts weren't in a row about a particular skater. If you have questions about his eligibility, call the USFS. If you question the way the website is set up, there should be an e-mail for responses.

I think if Burt had been a total jerk all weekend, all full of himself and intent on winning, I think the people who were actually there at Mids wouldn't be so adamate about dropping it. But Burt was a great guy and competitor, being supportive of everyone, from pre-bronze to champ masters. He stuck around to watch other events, and organized an unofficial skaters party on Saturday night.

And sk8r1964, thank you for a wonderful post. It was beautiful...as are you! :D

I'm finally home from Mids (long story)....now I can sort through all the goodies!

RXSkater

03-12-2005, 07:10 AM

RX
I respect your opinion .However I think I will just show up to skate, do my best and see how it play's out. Im not defending or endorsing any one here ,Im just interested in the subject . I skate for skating sake , win or lose, It will be a victory for me to skate well. :D See you in KC :D

Anytime one skates with integrity, they've skated well--which is why I admire virtually every adult skater. Skate your best in KC!

RXSkater

03-12-2005, 07:56 AM

Now wait. I am a clubmate of two of those men, including the one who placed 5th, and they really, really don't care, so why do you? Both came back from Colorado and started really working on doubles....I've never seen either one of them so diligent. They love to skate and skate well....and you never know what will happen at a competition.

Also, what makes you think that the USFS hasn't checked this out? What makes you think that the USFS won't check this out before AN's? Trust me, if he is ineligible, he will not be welcome at KC. Unless he got married and changed his name :P , the USFS has his name and credentials...especially if he's been coaching all this time.

Look, I got nailed on here because of a similar issue and later learned that my facts weren't in a row about a particular skater. If you have questions about his eligibility, call the USFS.

Look, I'm not saying that Burton is not a nice person. But I am saying that in the USFS Rulebook, a person is restricted from competing if he or she is a rink owner, a rink manager, or a rink's skating director--and he or she is likewise restricted for a period of time thereafter. On the day that Burton competed at Adult Midwesterns, he was listed on the ISI web site as the Skating Director at the Capitol Ice Academy. I'm not sure the USFS has the manpower to check these things out for every competitor.

If your clubmates "don't care," I respect that. I also respect how hard they're working, that they "love to skate and skate well." However, it is not up to them to allow USFS rules to be bent so that a restricted skater may compete in their event.

SkateGuard

03-12-2005, 09:55 AM

Look, I'm not saying that Burton is not a nice person. But I am saying that in the USFS Rulebook, a person is restricted from competing if he or she is a rink owner, a rink manager, or a rink's skating director--and he or she is likewise restricted for a period of time thereafter. On the day that Burton competed at Adult Midwesterns, he was listed on the ISI web site as the Skating Director at the Capitol Ice Academy. I'm not sure the USFS has the manpower to check these things out for every competitor.

Yes, we all know that. He hasn't competed in years because of it. I wouldn't rely solely on a website, though....my rink website hasn't been updated in over a year. If you are this peeved about the situation, pick up the phone, call the USFS, and ask. Otherwise, you're just whining on a forum....were you even in Colorado Springs?

I know several adult skaters who have to go through the reinstatement process to compete in interp at AN's, so if the rules are that strict with interp, I'd be shocked if the USFS _wasn't_ aware of the situation. Why do you think forms are due over a month (and for AN's, three months) before the competition? And if they don't know about this, then they will be if you call and the appropriate investigation can be made.

But until then, I think I'd like to say "innocent until proven guilty." This is US Figure Skating, not Upper Mongolia.....

RXSkater

03-12-2005, 10:20 AM

I'm not seeing any fabrications of his titles on that though. He is a National Champion, technically, and as far as anyone has proven here, ahas been all the other listed items as well. So I don't think there's anything scandalous about the loan.

Admittedly, I don't know--but "Director of Choreography for a large touring company" sounds like someone has stretched the truth. And while I respect his accomplishments, Burton is a National Champion, technically, about as much as Bill Clinton, technically, "did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky."

U.S. Figure Skating is very exact in its definition of "Champion." Currently, Michelle Kwan is the Ladies Champion and Johnny Weir is the Men's Champion. When it's said that one "has been a national champion," it is implied that they won the U.S. National Championships at the Senior (or Championship) level. When the USFS refers to the winner of a lower-level event, such as Junior Ladies, it's something like "2005 U.S. junior champion Sandra Rucker."

While winning an event at Adult Nationals is a great accomplishment, it would be more truthful, in my opinion, to refer to such a win as "2004 U.S. Adult Bronze II Champion" or "1999 U.S. Adult Gold Champion," etc. Otherwise it could be construed as being misleading, particularly on a loan application.

Likewise, I would question the claim of being an international competitor, which carries implications of representing one's country in a competition sanctioned by the ISU, which was not the case at Villard de Lans' Mountain Cup. Perhaps as Adult Skating grows worldwide, there will be competitions where deserving adult skaters are granted team envelope assignments by USFS, but this hasn't happened yet.

manleywoman

03-12-2005, 10:33 AM

Likewise, I would question the claim of being an international competitor, which carries implications of representing one's country in a competition sanctioned by the ISU, which was not the case at Villard de Lans' Mountain Cup.

But he might have been an international competitor in roller skating.

What page in the rulebook states that if he's a rink owner he's not eligible?

Michigansk8er

03-12-2005, 01:44 PM

What page in the rulebook states that if he's a rink owner he's not eligible?

I was wondering the same thing. If it is a rule, it seems like a rather ridiculous one.

NoVa Sk8r

03-12-2005, 02:08 PM

I was wondering the same thing. If it is a rule, it seems like a rather ridiculous one.From what I understand, it is a rule, and I guess the reason for it is that rink owners have a say over club activities, and that creates a conflict of interest. (But if the rink is not associated with USFSA, then I guess the rule is a moot point?)

RXSkater

03-12-2005, 02:09 PM

What page in the rulebook states that if he's a rink owner he's not eligible?

It's ER 4.01 A., which states that a skater will have restricted eligibility status if he or she "receives remuneration from ownership or management of an ice show, ice arena, skating exhibition tour, or non sanctioned competition. (A person shall be considered an owner or manager if, through investment or paid employment, that person makes decisions regarding the operation of an ice show, ice arena, skating exhibition tour, or non-sanctioned competition.)" A skating director clearly falls into this category.

ER 4.03: "All persons under restricted status are restricted while they engage in the above activities and for ninety (90) days thereafter."

A call to Capitol Ice Academy (515-266-6829) confirmed that Burton Powley is the rink's skating director.

SkateGuard

03-12-2005, 03:32 PM

It's ER 4.01 A., which states that a skater will have restricted eligibility status if he or she "receives remuneration from ownership or management of an ice show, ice arena, skating exhibition tour, or non sanctioned competition. (A person shall be considered an owner or manager if, through investment or paid employment, that person makes decisions regarding the operation of an ice show, ice arena, skating exhibition tour, or non-sanctioned competition.)" A skating director clearly falls into this category.

ER 4.03: "All persons under restricted status are restricted while they engage in the above activities and for ninety (90) days thereafter."

A call to Capitol Ice Academy (515-266-6829) confirmed that Burton Powley is the rink's skating director.

Then the next question is....what is meant by "restricted status?"

I guess I'm just confused about all of this....then again, if the USFS doesn't know, this situation doesn't exist (kinda like the urban legend of married women who rejoin the USFS and skate Bronze, even if they were higher than Juvenile as kids..the USFS has no idea because of the name change).

However, I don't care enough to "tattle" on another skater....I'm just curious about rules and stuff. Hey, if you knew what I did for a living, it would make sense....

RXSkater

03-12-2005, 05:52 PM

Then the next question is....what is meant by "restricted status?"

I guess I'm just confused about all of this....then again, if the USFS doesn't know, this situation doesn't exist (kinda like the urban legend of married women who rejoin the USFS and skate Bronze, even if they were higher than Juvenile as kids..the USFS has no idea because of the name change).

However, I don't care enough to "tattle" on another skater....I'm just curious about rules and stuff. Hey, if you knew what I did for a living, it would make sense....

Restricted skaters are not eligible to compete in qualifying events. Only eligible and reinstated skaters may qualify for Adult Nationals (page 65 of the USFS Rulebook). Restricted skaters may compete in non-qualifying competitions, however.

SkateGuard

03-12-2005, 08:03 PM

Restricted skaters are not eligible to compete in qualifying events. Only eligible and reinstated skaters may qualify for Adult Nationals (page 65 of the USFS Rulebook). Restricted skaters may compete in non-qualifying competitions, however.

Which means, the USFS checked out Burt's status before Mids even started, because the Champ forms go to the USFS hq's. Um, doh!

Now back to our regularly scheduled fun and skating chat..... :)

RXSkater

03-12-2005, 09:17 PM

Which means, the USFS checked out Burt's status before Mids even started, because the Champ forms go to the USFS hq's. Um, doh!

The USFS might verify test level and age, but that's about it. Otherwise, they rely on the competitor's integrity when he or she signs the competition application stating that he or she is eligible for the competition in accordance with current USFS Rules. Undoubtedly the USFS will be investigating Burton's eligibility now, due to certain allegations brought to light on this board.

And that's the last comment I'm making on this unfortunate subject!

SkateGuard

03-12-2005, 10:04 PM

Not unless someone called the USFS and told them. The USFS isn't reading this board to look for ineligible skaters.

It doesn't matter....I don't think any of the Champ Gold Men even care....I know that the guy who placed 5th (and directly affected by this) hasn't given this one thought. I'm just trying to figure out why the USFS wouldn't check this out before a qualifying competition.

TimDavidSkate

03-12-2005, 11:04 PM

It doesn't matter....I don't think any of the Champ Gold Men even care.....

I doubt that....

jazzpants

03-12-2005, 11:56 PM

SkateGuard wrote...
It doesn't matter....I don't think any of the Champ Gold Men even care....To which Tim David replied I doubt that....Sorry to tell 'ya this, Tim, but I can say for certain that Chris Williams' (the Bronze medalist for that event) posting on another board with the subject titled "Leave Burt Alone" made it CRYSTAL CLEAR to me that he doesn't care! :P

Me? I rather hear about what's happening at Pacific Coast Sectionals myself!!! :P

TimDavidSkate

03-13-2005, 12:00 AM

SkateGuard

03-13-2005, 05:11 AM

Great guy or not, I'm sorry, but that is one spot Burt has taken up on the podium.

It should have gone to a deserving Gold Men's skater.

Chris Williams already won the gold last year at Nationals and Burt won it 3 times at the gold level. Obviously Christopher clearly looks like a Gold skater in contrast to Burt's Masters ability.

And that is my final opinion on this matter.

Chris wasn't 100% at Mids. He sustained a severe cut to his leg which required stitches only three weeks beforehand and pushed it to skate at both Wyandotte and Mids. He's now mending and looking more like himself. You may be surprised at KC....

Also, the guy who placed 5th is pretty happy about how things went (he's coming back from a severly sprained/broken ankle that had him on crutches in November and off the ice until Christmas). Whining about how he should have qualified is the last thing on his mind right now, trust me.

Considering that he's the one most directly affected, and he doesn't care....

NoVa Sk8r

03-13-2005, 06:14 AM

skaternum

03-13-2005, 06:36 AM

It doesn't matter....I don't think any of the Champ Gold Men even care.At the risk of sounding like the QA & Regulatory Affairs chick that I am in my "other life," :) when rules are broken it indirectly affects everyone. When we knowingly tolerate it, it brings us all down a little bit. When it's flaunted, it makes us adult skaters all look bad. The rules exist to try to create a level playing field. If skaters are allowed to ignore the rules because they're ... gosh, just swell people, why bother to have the rules at all? Why not just scrap the eligibility rules for adults and make it a free-for-all? It's a slippery slope. (I'll skip the parallel to rampant cheating in colleges.)

I'm just trying to figure out why the USFS wouldn't check this out before a qualifying competition.Because USFS is still primarily a big organization run by volunteers and too few paid staff. And, quite frankly, how would they verify something like this? Professional status is self-reported. Unless you're naive enough to put it up on a website.

skaternum

03-13-2005, 06:44 AM

Sorry, Tim, but weren't you once competing at (or skating up to?) the juvenile level? And now you're comepting in bronze at adult nationals?Hey, that's a good question. Didn't you say you'd passed juvenile something (MITF? FS?)? How were you eligible to compete Gold at Peach Classic last year, but you've only passed the Bronze FS test?

Stormy

03-13-2005, 09:25 AM

I've wondered that myself. You specifically refused to say what tests you'd passed in another thread. You do seem to be very opinionated on this subject about Burt, but it isn't your battle to fight especially since you aren't even in that level.
If you have passed Juvenile, no way can you skate Bronze. Last year I was shut out of AN because I'd passed Pre Juv FS but didn't pass Silver free in time, so I couldn't skate Bronze. If that's the case and you have passed Juv, I'm surprised USFS didn't catch you. How did you skate Gold at Peach and now Bronze at AN? Quite honestly, it means you fibbed somewhere on your applications.

TimDavidSkate

03-13-2005, 11:46 AM

I requested with the competition comittee to skate up at these non qualifying events. At Peach and the competitions when I was skating standard level. I've always want to compete at the higher level since I was a kid.

Plus, I never said I passed the Juvenile or Pre-Juv moves. I don't know where that came from.

With my results so far in the adult level, do I look like I am sandbagging?

SkateGuard

03-13-2005, 12:14 PM

At the risk of sounding like the QA & Regulatory Affairs chick that I am in my "other life," :) when rules are broken it indirectly affects everyone. When we knowingly tolerate it, it brings us all down a little bit. When it's flaunted, it makes us adult skaters all look bad. The rules exist to try to create a level playing field. If skaters are allowed to ignore the rules because they're ... gosh, just swell people, why bother to have the rules at all? Why not just scrap the eligibility rules for adults and make it a free-for-all? It's a slippery slope. (I'll skip the parallel to rampant cheating in colleges.)

Ah, yes, cGMP. :) My other world, too...I consult for pharma, doing validation. I understand that rules were made to be followed, but in this case, everyone is kvetching on a forum, _but nobody has called the USFS to make sure that everything is legit_. So I'm under the "innocent until proven guilty" banner right now.

Look, a bunch of people heard his story at Mids, and as far as we all could tell, he's legit. It's more than "he's a swell guy." While he owned Capitol Ice, he didn't compete--he's certainly aware of the rules, and has played by them. So why would he suddenly change that for a medal in an event he has already won? His demeanor over the weekend never suggested that he wanted to win....he was there to have a good time. I don't think he went into it as an easy medal. He needed oxygen after both freestyle events.....

If you guys are so concerned, stop whining and get some facts....from the USFS! Sheesh.

manleywoman

03-13-2005, 12:30 PM

SkateGuard

03-13-2005, 12:45 PM

It has happened in the past that USFS has not caught an adult skater who either intentiaonally lied or accidentally left out (not sure which it was and I'll give them the benefit of the doubt) a test they had passed on an application. That skater went on to ANs and won an event. It was only after the event was over that someone caught the error. And it was something having to do with what they had passed in ISI, if I recall correctly.

Considering I was good friends with the silver medalist at the time, you can bet they were pissed.

Well, they're not as quick to check out ISI stuff. They don't ask for madien names, either. So it's rather easy to skate down if you're a woman who skated ISI as a kid.

However, this is a bit more noticable, since he's listed as skating director (and thus, the contact person for the USFS Basic Skills Program), as well as the fact that this is Championship level....

My dance partner placed 5th, so trust me when I say he's got more important things to do with his time than whine....I apparently do not. :P :lol:

kunduchaiko

03-13-2005, 02:58 PM

Chris wasn't 100% at Mids. He sustained a severe cut to his leg which required stitches only three weeks beforehand and pushed it to skate at both Wyandotte and Mids. He's now mending and looking more like himself. You may be surprised at KC....

Even when Chris was at his top form last year when he won, he still looked like a top Gold Skater, not masters. He looks like someone who has learned to skate as an adult and has learned some AMAZING tricks although they don't look too right... that is the difference between a gold skater and a masters skater. No amount of hard work is going to transform Chris' skating -or ANY of the top Gold Men's skaters out there from a Gold Level into Masters level - they just did not start as children so all their tricks - while wonderful, will never have the polish of a masters skater who has skated and jumped since childhood. I have seen Chris' reply to this whole situation on the compadultsk8 yahoo message board....

here it is

Alright, here's the story with Burt:
(Coming from another Men's Gold skater-- who placed 3rd and feels fortunate for
that)
As far as I'm concerned, he's a great guy who skates really well. He skates at
Gold now and that's fine with me.

Instead of taking time to read Burt's press clippings,(or mine for that matter),
I'm using that time at THE RINK, PRACTICING like I wish I could have done for
the past month, and like I SHOULD HAVE BEEN DOING for the past year.

Burt has just reset the bar for Gold Men. Now it's up to me to prepare to make
an ATTEMPT at that level. I'm not sure what I'll be able to actually
accomplish, but I know what I will work towards.

So let's give Burt his due, leave our excuses at home,and get out to the rink
and PRACTICE.

Chris

This is all well and nice, but the fact is that Chris has already won his gold medal so whatever happens from here on out, it really doesn't matter to him. If this sandbagging masters skater keeps clogging the top spot then other true Gold men will never have a chance to step on the top of the podium like Chris did last year.

saras

03-13-2005, 04:29 PM

MAJOR SNIPPAGE If this sandbagging masters skater keeps clogging the top spot then other true Gold men will never have a chance to step on the top of the podium like Chris did last year.

You know - it's really ugly that folks are namecalling a specific skater "this sandbangging master" etc. The skating levels are determined by passed tests, and that's it. Calling this person a "real" adult skater and someone else what - unreal? is just silly. There are not enough adult skaters in the world to go around and categorize them all based on their YEARS of background and experiences (skating and non-skating). So this one skated from age 6 on and never stopped; vs. that one who skated for a couple of years in high school then took 25 years off and came back; vs. that one who started at age 24 and is now 32 and quite happy at Silver; vs. that one who started in his mid-30s and has worked his way up to Gold; vs. the other who did whatever and then got an injury and will never again be able to do than a single loop. [ALL of these are hypothetical skaters not based on anyone in real life.] Sheepers creepers folks - just get out there and skate your OWN best and the rest is largely not under your own control. Yes, folks should be honest. But when it reduces to the level of calling someone a sandbagger b/c in your opinion they SHOULD test up to the next level - well, until you walk a mile in their shoes, that's not up to you to decide.

--Sara

SkateGuard

03-13-2005, 05:17 PM

Even when Chris was at his top form last year when he won, he still looked like a top Gold Skater, not masters. He looks like someone who has learned to skate as an adult and has learned some AMAZING tricks although they don't look too right

Correction....Chris is a child-start skater. He figure skated and played hockey growing up. (He's from MN, doh!) He's just had several long periods away from skating.

Actually, quite a few Gold level skaters are child-start skaters. It's just that they never got higher than the Juv level. Masters skaters are if they are Intermediate or higher. For example, Larry Holliday and Diedre Reeves have both passed their Sr. Free.

kunduchaiko

03-13-2005, 05:24 PM

You know - it's really ugly that folks are namecalling a specific skater "this sandbangging master" etc. The skating levels are determined by passed tests, and that's it. Calling this person a "real" adult skater and someone else what - unreal? is just silly. There are not enough adult skaters in the world to go around and categorize them all based on their YEARS of background and experiences (skating and non-skating). So this one skated from age 6 on and never stopped; vs. that one who skated for a couple of years in high school then took 25 years off and came back; vs. that one who started at age 24 and is now 32 and quite happy at Silver; vs. that one who started in his mid-30s and has worked his way up to Gold; vs. the other who did whatever and then got an injury and will never again be able to do than a single loop. [ALL of these are hypothetical skaters not based on anyone in real life.] Sheepers creepers folks - just get out there and skate your OWN best and the rest is largely not under your own control. Yes, folks should be honest. But when it reduces to the level of calling someone a sandbagger b/c in your opinion they SHOULD test up to the next level - well, until you walk a mile in their shoes, that's not up to you to decide.

--Sara

everyone can clearly see the difference between someone who is a masters skater and skaters who have started as adults.
There should be no surprise that championship adult skaters are any less competitive than standard track skaters. yes, there is the extra smile, the extra handshake, the extra hug, the "friendly" conversation, but make no mistake - on the championship level where people are not dressing up in snoopy , dracula or raggedy-ann costumes , the majority of skaters WANT that gold medal as badly as any eligible skater even though there is no prize money, commercial endorsement or fame associated with it.

We all have to walk miles in our own shoes when it comes to skating -Unfortunately it's not so easy when you have sprains, 10 bumps, bruises and blisters on each foot.

kunduchaiko

03-13-2005, 05:29 PM

Correction....Chris is a child-start skater. He figure skated and played hockey growing up. (He's from MN, doh!) He's just had several long periods away from skating.

Actually, quite a few Gold level skaters are child-start skaters. It's just that they never got higher than the Juv level. Masters skaters are if they are Intermediate or higher. For example, Larry Holliday and Diedre Reeves have both passed their Sr. Free.

Is there any doubt that Chris is skating at the level where he belongs? no, his tricks are gold level - some great stuff but something is not quite right -just like the rest of the gold skaters. I can see someone not skating at their right level once because of testing issues, but to win an event 3 times with double double combos that would make a skater competitive for at least a masters bronze medal and then drop out and come back again for another gold is just simply crazy. Look at last year's silver champions at nationals- both class 1 and 2 - all you need is an axel to win, but these ladies and gentelmen all had doubles in their repertoire and were working their way up the ranks to the level that they all should be on. Now that they are in Gold, they are now where they should be. Sure, they could go back to win multiple national silver titles, but what is the point?

Top masters skaters have skated competitively throughout their childhood into their 20's and kept up alot of their skills like Larry Holliday. Even Edward VanCampen was a 3 time Dutch national champion who skated on the WORLD stage!
It is funny to me that there is still controversy on many other skating message boards about who was the first person to actually land the triple jump at Adult nationals - Larry Holliday or Burton Powley...
No true gold skater would ever have any such gossip associated with them.

SkateGuard

03-13-2005, 05:42 PM

everyone can clearly see the difference between someone who is a masters skater and skaters who have started as adults.
There should be no surprise that championship adult skaters are any less competitive than standard track skaters. yes, there is the extra smile, the extra handshake, the extra hug, the "friendly" conversation, but make no mistake - on the championship level where people are not dressing up in snoopy , dracula or raggedy-ann costumes , the majority of skaters WANT that gold medal as badly as any eligible skater even though there is no prize money, commercial endorsement or fame associated with it.

We all have to walk miles in our own shoes when it comes to skating -Unfortunately it's not so easy when you have sprains, 10 bumps, bruises and blisters on each foot.

Now, wait. About 50% of silvers and 75% of golds started skating as kids. Masters skaters are ones who were _elite skaters_ as kids (Intermediate or higher). There are even kid start skaters in Bronze. The girl who won Bronze I at ANs last year started skating as a kid, but never kept it up long enough to get above the bronze level until last summer.

I also find the idea that Championship level skaters _don't_ wear silly costumes or take Adult Nationals more seriously. There's a lot of people in Bronze or Silver who want that national medal just as much. Yes, Championship is the "big time," but don't insult non-championship (or non-Masters) adult skaters by these assumptions.

Conversely, there's a lot of Championship level skaters who realize that this competition isn't the end-all, be-all of their lives--they're professionals, they're spouses, they're parents--well, you get the idea.

I have seen Champ qualifiers dress as Grinches, Purple People Eaters, witches ;) , schwans ;) , and Sonja Henie. That is interp--another fun aspect of adult skating. Freestyle is different, whether you are a first year Bronze I or Larry Holliday.

Just because I'm a bronze doesn't mean that my clubmates (including the three who did qualify in Champ level) treat my skating any less seriously than they treat their own. And nor do I, since I plan on being a Champ level qualifier as well someday. :D

kunduchaiko

03-13-2005, 06:07 PM

Now, wait. About 50% of silvers and 75% of golds started skating as kids. Masters skaters are ones who were _elite skaters_ as kids (Intermediate or higher). There are even kid start skaters in Bronze. The girl who won Bronze I at ANs last year started skating as a kid, but never kept it up long enough to get above the bronze level until last summer.

I also find the idea that Championship level skaters _don't_ wear silly costumes or take Adult Nationals more seriously. There's a lot of people in Bronze or Silver who want that national medal just as much. Yes, Championship is the "big time," but don't insult non-championship (or non-Masters) adult skaters by these assumptions.

Conversely, there's a lot of Championship level skaters who realize that this competition isn't the end-all, be-all of their lives--they're professionals, they're spouses, they're parents--well, you get the idea.

I have seen Champ qualifiers dress as Grinches, Purple People Eaters, witches ;) , schwans ;) , and Sonja Henie. That is interp--another fun aspect of adult skating. Freestyle is different, whether you are a first year Bronze I or Larry Holliday.

Just because I'm a bronze doesn't mean that my clubmates (including the three who did qualify in Champ level) treat my skating any less seriously than they treat their own. And nor do I, since I plan on being a Champ level qualifier as well someday. :D

There was no insult intended towards any silver or bronze skater. Of course there are silver and bronze skaters who get as many cuts , bumps and bruises, share the same frustrations and joys as any gold or masters level skater. Heck, I was in the stands watching the bronze ladies competition last year and heard some EXTREMELY ugly things coming out of more than one woman's mouth about how this one bronze skater should have been silver. I saw her myself, and this woman clearly looked silver to me. So clearly being extremely competitive cuts across all levels. If this is the same girl, I bet you she has some sense to now move up the next level seeing as she won the national title.

What I was referring to was the fact that most people doing competitive freestyle routines in adult skating want to stand on the podium with people who are on their appropriate level. Adult skating is sometimes misrepresented as a less serious side of the sport, but it is no less serious to all the wonderful adults who work hard, get up at 3 in the morning , spend their money and get injured. Videos like the one they put out in Lake Placid featuring mostly snoopy, dracula, a spider and raggedy ann instead showing more clips from competitive routines from all of the masters, gold, silver and bronze champions reinforce the perception of adult skating as being silly and a waste of time.

With fierce competition also comes cheaters and liars.

SkateGuard

03-13-2005, 08:03 PM

There was no insult intended towards any silver or bronze skater. ...Heck, I was in the stands watching the bronze ladies competition last year and heard some EXTREMELY ugly things coming out of more than one woman's mouth about how this one bronze skater should have been silver. I saw her myself, and this woman clearly looked silver to me. So clearly being extremely competitive cuts across all levels. If this is the same girl, I bet you she has some sense to now move up the next level seeing as she won the national title.

Videos like the one they put out in Lake Placid featuring mostly snoopy, dracula, a spider and raggedy ann instead showing more clips from competitive routines from all of the masters, gold, silver and bronze champions reinforce the perception of adult skating as being silly and a waste of time.

I'm sorry that you're so cynical. I guess I don't care about medals that much, mainly because they're shiny and nice, but they don't call or e-mail you when you're down, they don't come to help when you're lonely, and they certainly don't take you to the opera when you're alone in a strange city. :)

1. As for that skater, she did a very nice Silver program at Mids. She looked a bit tired at the end--perhaps because she was busy earning a medal at synch nationals the week before :) . She had prepared to compete Silver at AN's, but a synch injury (yes, a blade sliced her leg) kept her from testing. Had it been me, I would have just done interp, where it doesn't matter if you're bronze or silver, but I'm not her. Hey, I had to go immediately after her and skated miserably. (I have to say I wasn't pleased, but my issues are with the rules rather than a particular skater, and as such, have complained to the appropriate channels so that the adult skating movement continues to succeed.) However, when I look back on my experiences there, I got a prize bigger than a medal--a dance partner who is also my best friend. :D

2. The Lake Placid video was crappy. However, I saw a lot of freestyle clips in it--all of the Bronze I girls, many Bronze II's and III's, Champ Gold ladies and men, etc. It's just that they finished it for Saturday night, so it looked more like a high school assignment than a professionally produced video. :evil:

I find it in poor taste when anyone lies or cheats...but it just seems so pathetic to do it as an adult skater. It's not like we are going to the Olympics, so what's the point?

kunduchaiko

03-13-2005, 08:18 PM

I'm sorry that you're so cynical. I guess I don't care about medals that much, mainly because they're shiny and nice, but they don't call or e-mail you when you're down, they don't come to help when you're lonely, and they certainly don't take you to the opera when you're alone in a strange city. :)

When I am 60 years old and can no longer skate the way that I do, I would like to open up my curio cabinet and look at that one gold medal and say that I accomplished something great in my own skating and that all the creaking in my old bones, and crutches caused by debilitating arthritis was worth all of the years that I have pounded my body doing difficult jumps.

SkateGuard

03-13-2005, 08:27 PM

When I am 60 years old and can no longer skate the way that I do, I would like to open up my curio cabinet and look at that one gold medal and say that I accomplished something great in my own skating and that all the creaking in my old bones, and crutches caused by debilitating arthritis was worth all of the years that I have pounded my body doing difficult jumps.

Oh, you would have liked Mids. As far as I could tell, everyone came home with a shiny medal that said "Midwestern Sectionals" on it. So I now have a Sectional medal for my curio cabinet. :D

sk8er1964

03-13-2005, 09:21 PM

Is there any doubt that Chris is skating at the level where he belongs? no, his tricks are gold level - some great stuff but something is not quite right -just like the rest of the gold skaters.

Was this really necessary? You had to say it twice, too. Chris is a fabulous skater, and IMO his skating looks "quite right" to me. Just because you may not like some of his mannerisms or moves on the ice, doesn't mean he and the rest of the gold skaters aren't "quite right".

As a Gold level skater, I think as a group we look quite right, thank you very much.

manleywoman

03-13-2005, 09:28 PM

Masters skaters are ones who were _elite skaters_ as kids (Intermediate or higher).

Not necessarily. There are a few of us who worked our way into Masters from Gold, and in one case, Silver. I think we've just been fortunate enough to have flexible schedules, few injuries and the time to put in to work really hard to be competitive in that level.

kunduchaiko

03-13-2005, 09:38 PM

Was this really necessary? You had to say it twice, too. Chris is a fabulous skater, and IMO his skating looks "quite right" to me. Just because you may not like some of his mannerisms or moves on the ice, doesn't mean he and the rest of the gold skaters aren't "quite right".

As a Gold level skater, I think as a group we look quite right, thank you very much.

yes, quite right for an adult skater, but not quite right in terms of what people expect when they are looking at figure skaters.. This is the difference between gold and masters skaters. Masters skaters have that polish that people associate with figure skating due to many years of high level competition and experience. Gold skaters do the tricks, but there is something missing.

Many adult skaters know exactly what their true abilites are, and many believe that they actually look like elite level skaters on the ice when it is far from the truth. You even have silver level skaters talking about adjusting their spins to the code of points????? it doesn't make sense.

When I skate myself, I think that I look like Jenny Kirk and Tim Goebel, but when I look at the video, I see Jenny Craig and Tim Conway.

This doesn't discourage me.... it makes me work harder to becoming a better skater , however reality has set in that I will never look like a masters level skater. I keep skating because I love the feel of the ice - to be able to spin and the feeling of flight - regardless of the fact that I don't resemble the skaters I see on tv and never will. I am a realist.

NoVa Sk8r

03-13-2005, 10:12 PM

Many adult skaters know exactly what their true abilites are, and many believe that they actually look like elite level skaters on the ice when it is far from the truth. You even have silver level skaters talking about adjusting their spins to the code of points????? it doesn't make sense.Grrr ... there are some silver-level skaters who can outspin the gold and master-level skaters!!! :evil:

Nah, I get what you're saying; I just couldn't resist posting on my forte, spins. ;) :P

SkateGuard

03-13-2005, 10:22 PM

Not necessarily. There are a few of us who worked our way into Masters from Gold, and in one case, Silver. I think we've just been fortunate enough to have flexible schedules, few injuries and the time to put in to work really hard to be competitive in that level.

My bad. I meant, "designed" for those who were elite skaters as kids. Masters was developed to separate those who were Intermediate and higher as kids from the rest of the adults. Obviously, as time passes, there will be more and more skaters who move up to masters--even those who started as adults. I know an adult-start gold (never took a test before 25 y.o.) who is working on intermediate/novice moves. Gee, wonder why? ;)

I already have my Champ Masters music selected--and have since I was a pre-bronze--so I'll be there, unless they put a triple on the Intermediate test by then.....it actually took me three years to find because it's no longer being produced (have to go to the used cd places).

kitkat

03-13-2005, 11:03 PM

Kristin

03-14-2005, 08:11 AM

I saw more like four skaters in Bronze I in A.N.'s '04 who could have been Silver. And actually many of them had elements and polish closer to Gold than Silver.

I asked the gold medal winner from Bronze I why she was skating Bronze. She said because she does not have an axle/axel? (sorry it's late). She made no mention of intending to skate silver nor any injury. So which is it?

I was highly disgusted watching the finals of this event. Sandbagging was taken to a whole new level there.

kitkat.

I have met this Bronze 1 lady several times, she is very nice, and undeserving of your comments. She is also not cut-throat competitive as you would make her sound! I competed in this Bronze 1 ladies event last year, did NOT make final round, and saw that the bar had indeed been raised for Bronze 1. But this is a NATIONAL-level competition, not local. We just have to keep training to make ourselves better and let the chips fall where they may......

We stagnate when we don't have people to look up to.

-Kristin

coskater64

03-14-2005, 08:19 AM

Well-
I'll put in my two cents here. Once you test out of gold you go back to the standard track, as everyone knows. Let me tell you, no doing things like an "adult" , you meet the standard or you retry the test and that's all there is to it. Do the Novice moves like an adult, won't float. Power is a primary or secondary focus throughout the test.

I can tell you the posture and flow of the champ gold ladies was, across the board, improved. I don't see little kids skate like that and the ones I do see are all competitive at their level. Just because my jumps aren't flawless doesn't meant I skate like an adult, and as for the medals. The ones where I skate my best and do what I need to do, those skates mean more than the medals. And then there are the people I meet as I travel around skating those are much more valuable and cherished for much longer.

Even though I have two small medals that mean more too me than anything-- I did not earn them, but they were entrusted to me when I was 6. My grandfather won them speed skating in Central Park in new york city in 1912 & 1910, both he and my grandmother skated. They encouraged me even though as a child I was pretty bad. So in the end I guess it is what you value more, a bunch of medals, or a happy life w/ friends who share a common interest.

Off to the rink. la

starskate6.0

03-14-2005, 09:24 AM

At the risk of sounding like the QA & Regulatory Affairs chick that I am in my "other life," :) when rules are broken it indirectly affects everyone. When we knowingly tolerate it, it brings us all down a little bit. When it's flaunted, it makes us adult skaters all look bad. The rules exist to try to create a level playing field. If skaters are allowed to ignore the rules because they're ... gosh, just swell people, why bother to have the rules at all? Why not just scrap the eligibility rules for adults and make it a free-for-all? It's a slippery slope. (I'll skip the parallel to rampant cheating in colleges.)

Because USFS is still primarily a big organization run by volunteers and too few paid staff. And, quite frankly, how would they verify something like this? Professional status is self-reported. Unless you're naive enough to put it up on a website.

Keep in mind you can go back to being an amature after one year of being out of the professional ranks.I started skating at 23, I skated in shows for years ( as bad as i was ), learned a lot of skating there, gave it up for ten years and then started amature skating for the first time as an adult in 2002. You can go back to being an amature.

skaternum

03-14-2005, 09:29 AM

skaternum

03-14-2005, 09:33 AM

Keep in mind you can go back to being an amature after one year of being out of the professional ranks.I started skating at 23, I skated in shows for years ( as bad as i was ), learned a lot of skating there, gave it up for ten years and then started amature skating for the first time as an adult in 2002. You can go back to being an amature.That's not really the issue here. (Hint: the classifications are eligible/inelegible, not professional/amateur.) We all know you can regain eligibility once in your skating career.

The issue is whether he's INELIGIBLE, but claimed to be eligible so he could compete at a qualifying event.

manleywoman

03-14-2005, 09:34 AM

My 2 cents on various points in this thread:

I believe Burt Powley is guilty of grossly exaggerated self-promotion. I think it's tacky and unethical.
None of us really know for sure whether he's guilty of competing while ineligible. If you care, contact USFSA.
None of us really know if he used his exaggerated self-promotion to get a loan. It's not our business.
The sandbagging discussion is old. We go through it every year right before and right after Adult Nationals. Yes, it exists. Shut up and skate.
Disparaging other skaters by name, when they've had absolutely nothing to do with this discussion, is reprehensible. Shame on you.

:bow: :bow:

starskate6.0

03-14-2005, 09:42 AM

[QUOTE=skaternum]That's not really the issue here. (Hint: the classifications are eligible/inelegible, not professional/amateur.) We all know you can regain eligibility once in your skating career.

The issue is whether he's INELIGIBLE, but claimed to be eligible so he could compete at a qualifying event.[/QUOTE

" Oh" :roll: I see. Well, I think Ill just show up and skate, Ill be in the gold mens skating for my self and with any luck stay on my feet long enough to do a good program . Im looking forward to seeing you all again and meeting new friends. Ill be going to Obertsdorf as well this year, that will be great :D Im not in it for the medals Im in it to entertain, the greatest prize is applause. see you there. :D

NaomiBeth1

03-14-2005, 09:47 AM

I saw more like four skaters in Bronze I in A.N.'s '04 who could have been Silver. And actually many of them had elements and polish closer to Gold than Silver.

I asked the gold medal winner from Bronze I why she was skating Bronze. She said because she does not have an axle/axel? (sorry it's late). She made no mention of intending to skate silver nor any injury. So which is it?

I was highly disgusted watching the finals of this event. Sandbagging was taken to a whole new level there.

kitkat.

Boy, am I now getting more and more nervous. As a first time AN competitior (would've done LP last year - if I hadn't gotten married!) in Silver Ladies I, I thought I was right in the middle of the level, but now I'm second guessing that after hearing the advanced skills Bronze skaters are doing.

sk8er1964

03-14-2005, 09:49 AM

Stormy

03-14-2005, 09:50 AM

dcden

03-14-2005, 10:01 AM

Wow, has this thread taken a nasty turn. Whatever. Many of us agree that there are generalizable differences between adult-onset skaters and returning skaters, but there's absolutely no reason to drag Chris Williams and other skaters into this. And there's no reason to start insulting specific bronze skaters. kunduchaiko, what are your interests in the gold/masters men issue? From your join date and postings, it looks like you're gunning for something. What is it? You appear to have an agenda and an axe to grind.

My 2 cents on various points in this thread:

I believe Burt Powley is guilty of grossly exaggerated self-promotion. I think it's tacky and unethical.
None of us really know for sure whether he's guilty of competing while ineligible. If you care, contact USFSA.
None of us really know if he used his exaggerated self-promotion to get a loan. It's not our business.
The sandbagging discussion is old. We go through it every year right before and right after Adult Nationals. Yes, it exists. Shut up and skate.
Disparaging other skaters by name, when they've had absolutely nothing to do with this discussion, is reprehensible. Shame on you.

Agreed! Point #1 stems solely from the questionable idea to post the altered article from Skating magazine. Points #2 & 3 are questionable, and I guess I am not lawyerly enough to want to argue these points in one way or another. Point #4 - so true. The notion of someone "looking like" a level-x skater is highly subjective... someone who looks like a gold level skater to one person may look like a silver level skater to another or a master level skater to a third party.

But if you're going to accuse someone else of sandbagging, you'd better be prepared to handle the accusations when they're directed at you. Same goes for misrepresenting yourself on a personal website...

w.w.west

03-14-2005, 10:14 AM

Agreed that this thread has certainly taken a nasty turn. Let’s clear one issue up right now:

Burton Powley is eligible and unrestricted. He is guilty of no rule violations as far as U.S. Figureskating is concerned. So the accusations can stop now right? I feel kind of silly posting this on a public forum, but now hopefully people can get back to their own skating and put this issue to rest.

Enjoy YOUR skating!

Spreadeagle

03-14-2005, 03:01 PM

Hear, hear, w.w.west! I can't believe this is being discussed yet again. I got involved in the whole discussion about Bronze 1 in Lake Placid last year (yes, it was almost an entire year ago, can't believe it's still being discussed!) and there were lots of rumors floating around just as there are about Burton.

The bottom line is, unless you have sat down and had a conversation, face to face, with any of these skaters, you don't have any idea what their situation is and you shouldn't presume to, much less discuss it in an online forum behind an anonymous screen name. And I mean a true conversation, not one in which you walk up to a skater in an accusatory manner and walk away mid-conversation.

I find it incredibly difficult to believe that anyone would intentionally sandbag. There may be circumstances that kept skaters at a certain level, or perhaps they just don't know what to expect. Every skater has their strengths and weaknesses, and like someone else said, what looks like Gold level skating to one person could look like Bronze to someone else.

I saw Burton skate at Mids and I thought he was amazing. In fact, while he was skating, someone said to me, Now THAT's what a Gold skater should look like. Bashing him or anyone else you think is "sandbagging" isn't going to make you a better skater or make you look better. It's only going to make you look worse.

I agree with Kristin--if you don't have anyone to look up to, how will you improve?

kunduchaiko

03-14-2005, 04:10 PM

I saw Burton skate at Mids and I thought he was amazing. In fact, while he was skating, someone said to me, Now THAT's what a Gold skater should look like. Bashing him or anyone else you think is "sandbagging" isn't going to make you a better skater or make you look better. It's only going to make you look worse.

I agree with Kristin--if you don't have anyone to look up to, how will you improve?

It's kind of crazy to think that a Gold level skater can look up to a masters level skater and hope to be like them. Sure the word GOLD should mean total refinement, but that is what masters level is all about. Christopher Williams and Nicholas Chou before him - even newcomers from North Carolina with double lutzes are what Gold really is all about.There is only a certain amount that a skater who has learned to skate as an adult or been an elite skater can do.

As my friend crudely put it - " with this man coming back again for one more title, the rest of those ISI looking b**ches can just forget it! "

jazzpants

03-14-2005, 04:32 PM

w.w.west: "WORD!!!" :mrgreen: (For those who are not into black slang, "Word" means "an affirmation of agreement...")

(No more Ms. Nice Gal!!! Jazzpants taking off her gloves and you long timers know I'm hardly ever mean...*AHEM*) :evil:

Okay guys! Listen up! If you guys are bashing the so called "true" Adult Gold Men, I feel so sorry for you guys!!! I happen to have met/know a LOT these Adult Gold Men (thru my coach and here) and trust me, they skate beautifully!!! They are a classy bunch of men and one of my main inspiration to work hard to get to AN!!! I can't believe I'm still reading this CRAP!!! (I'll own up to my poor judgement in responding to Tim by mentioning Chris' opinion on this. If I knew that I gave ammo for someone in turning into this bash-fest about Adult Gold skaters, I would have never posted that in the first place.) :roll:

For those who are bitter about the "sandbaggers"... there's always gonna be one or two people who sandbags (intentionally or not)... DEAL WITH IT!!! :evil: Figure out what you need to do to improve your skating so you'll skate better next year! And I say this knowing that I have never won a competition and will likely never medal...even at the pre-Bronze level! Do I gripe about it when I work my butt off only to find myself in last place? NO!!! I get back on the ice the next day and I work on what I need to work on to be better!!! And you wanna know where I learn this? Yes...from another (now former) Adult Gold Men skater!!!

And you Gold Men who are encouraging me to keep at it to pass Adult Bronze??? I hear 'ya!!! I hear 'ya, dude!!! I'm working hard and I want to be there for 'ya next year in Dallas. It's not an easy task to do, but I haven't given up yet!!! And it will be VERY SWEET when I finally get there, believe me!!!!

sk8er1964

03-14-2005, 04:46 PM

And you Gold Men who are encouraging me to keep at it to pass Adult Bronze??? I hear 'ya!!! I hear 'ya, dude!!! I'm working hard and I want to be there for 'ya next year in Dallas. It's not an easy task to do, but I haven't given up yet!!! And it will be VERY SWEET when I finally get there, believe me!!!!

And we will throw you the biggest party AN has ever seen! :mrgreen:

kitkat

03-14-2005, 08:44 PM

kunduchaiko

03-14-2005, 09:37 PM

mikawendy

03-14-2005, 09:40 PM

For those who are bitter about the "sandbaggers"... there's always gonna be one or two people who sandbags (intentionally or not)... DEAL WITH IT!!! :evil: Figure out what you need to do to improve your skating so you'll skate better next year! And I say this knowing that I have never won a competition and will likely never medal...even at the pre-Bronze level! Do I gripe about it when I work my butt off only to find myself in last place? NO!!! I get back on the ice the next day and I work on what I need to work on to be better!!! And you wanna know where I learn this? Yes...from another (now former) Adult Gold Men skater!!!

And you Gold Men who are encouraging me to keep at it to pass Adult Bronze??? I hear 'ya!!! I hear 'ya, dude!!! I'm working hard and I want to be there for 'ya next year in Dallas. It's not an easy task to do, but I haven't given up yet!!! And it will be VERY SWEET when I finally get there, believe me!!!!

Tell it, jazzpants! I like your attitude toward your skating! 8-)

kunduchaiko

03-14-2005, 09:41 PM

Okay guys! Listen up! If you guys are bashing the so called "true" Adult Gold Men, I feel so sorry for you guys!!! I happen to have met/know a LOT these Adult Gold Men (thru my coach and here) and trust me, they skate beautifully!!!

No one is bashing the "true" adult gold men. They are adult skaters , not masters or standard track skaters. Those are just the facts - not interpretation.

SkateGuard

03-14-2005, 09:57 PM

Look People,

I was just trying to point out the fact that there was not just one (as someone had stated) but SEVERAL skaters in Bronze I who looked as good as many top level Silver or Gold skaters. I was also pointing out that I was told personally that she didn't skate Silver because she didn't have an axel not because of an injury.

I do not think it is right at all to see people of this caliber in Bronze. So sue me. It is still not right. A person who has been skating a few years in their 20's or 30's cannot compete against a 30 year old who has been skating since childhood.

Hmm. Interesting points. As someone in that zany Bronze I event last year, I can't disagree with the second point. I have serious issues watching the disparity of the bronze level grow to the point that a mid level bronze (me) has the jump-and-spin skills to pass silver fs. I can't pass the stinking moves, though. :roll:

And that's part of the problem....there are very good skaters who can't do a slide chasse or backward cross roll. It's the nature of the beast. However, at Mids this year, we had no "test level" bronzes--everyone was competitive and skilled advanced beginners, all of whom will probably test silver this summer. It would be rather frustrating to compete in that group if you didn't have a consistent flip, lutz, camel, or sit change sit. Now, we all had reasons for competing Bronze, none of which was "I want to medal at Nationals." Seriously--the top two won't even be in KC. That's the nature of adult skating--life gets in the way of our progress, so sometimes a "silver" will be skating "bronze." Or a "masters" will be skating "gold." Whatever. All I can control is my program.

The other problem is that the current grandfathering of standard tests do not accomodate for the pre-juv level. Not a big deal now, but I know teenage pre-juvs with five different doubles....why, in ten years, would they be competing against skaters who have only three consistent _singles_? That just seems a bit like putting Michelle Kwan in gold ladies.

Speaking of the Gold level, however, it is a different ball of wax. Whether you started skating as a kid or an adult, you are an advanced level skater to pass the Gold fs and skate Gold. (And it provides a good example of this point--one of the Champ Gold qualifiers at Mids this year came back to skating three years or so ago after a 30-something year layoff. She's a bit better than the people I know who have been skating for three years....) Transitioning from gold to masters is hard, for two reasons: 1. Some of these skaters are taking moves tests for the first time--starting with the intermediates, no less and 2. these skaters are jumping from the adult track to the standard track, and as coskater64 so well described, the judges are looking for nuances in the standard track that they may let slip on the adult track (i.e., the slide chasse which is on Silver and Intermediate moves...same steps, different passing criteria).

Just my $0.02

bostonsk8r

03-14-2005, 10:07 PM

If anyone also hears of the results of the adult Silver ladies events at either Midwestern or Pacific sectionals, please let me know :)

Mrs Redboots

03-15-2005, 05:46 AM

May I please remind everybody of the following facts:

You can't control what other skaters do
You can't control what the judges think
All you can do is go out there and skate to the absolute best of your ability. This is what you have trained for, prepared for, sweated over, whether you're a preliminary-level 50-something in his or her first ever competition, or the current Olympic men's singles champion. We're all skaters, we're all in exactly the same boat.
Muttering and moaning about other skaters who shouldn't be in the same class, or are too good for the class, or how unfair it is that X only skates at this level..... well, frankly, it makes you sound like bad sports!

That's not what skating is about - let's hear a lot more about our skating, please, and a lot less about other people's.

john-patrick

05-16-2005, 02:09 PM

It's not cool to claim to be the 1997 U.S. Adult Gold Men's Champion. That title belongs to John-Patrick Hull of New York, NY.

Frankly, I don't need to go on, but if I ever acheived the things that Larry Holiday, Tim McGuire, or John-Patrick Hull did, only to have a lesser skater publicly steal them from me, I'd hope that my fellow skaters would go to bat for me, rather than saying, "let's talk about something else...."

Hi all

I just thought I would address this item personaly. Since march I have gotten a ton of e-mail about this issue. Quite frankly I think it is sad that someone would claim a title that was not awarded to them. I remeber Burton from the event and he seemd like a nice guy and I am I am sure he is. Nevertheless, It seems strange to me that it would be a topic of discussion and I do apprecatie the comments by those went to bat and set the record straight.

I haven't competed since 2002 @ the Gay Games Sydney but the fond memories I have from 1997 in Lake Placid and talking about it most recently have me thinking about dusting off the boots and giving it a go for 2007! Ya never know.

Good luck to you all and Happy Skating!

John-Patrick Hull

TimDavidSkate

05-22-2005, 05:01 PM

hehehe, that shut some people up :D

Good job for researching the real title holder for that Nationals.

I doubt that Burton will move up to Masters next year. I'm quite sure that he will come up some mess why he cannot test before January of 2006.

Terri C

05-22-2005, 07:26 PM

Hey people, it's done, it's over with, so GET OVER IT AND GET READY FOR NEXT SEASON!!!
Can the moderator lock this thread please- I've had enough and sure quite a few others have! :roll:

dcden

05-22-2005, 07:41 PM

I TOTALLY AGREE Terri.

What happened with the website and the Skating magazine article on that site is done and passed. We've already commented on that, and the results of AN 2005 are as they are. But to start speculating on next year and trashing Burton on what he may or may not do in the future is really unfair to him. Yeah, he may move up to Masters, or he may stay in Gold, or he may open a studio in Albuquerque holding Pilates seminars for chimpanzees. We simply don't know, so let's not attack him on things that haven't even happened yet.

Terri C

05-22-2005, 08:03 PM

Yeah, he may move up to Masters, or he may stay in Gold, or he may open a studio in Albuquerque holding Pilates seminars for chimpanzees.

Dennis,
You crack me up!! :lol:

TimDavidSkate

05-22-2005, 09:16 PM

I have nothing better to do these days.... :halo: sorry

Lives to skate

05-22-2005, 11:00 PM

Lives to skate

05-22-2005, 11:04 PM

Maybe I will stay in Gold, just to piss you off! :twisted:

jazzpants

05-23-2005, 12:35 AM

Yeah, he may move up to Masters, or he may stay in Gold, or he may open a studio in Albuquerque holding Pilates seminars for chimpanzees.http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/kao/otn/bloblaugh.gif

Man, dcden -- good thing I wasn't drinking my Starbuck Caramel Machiatto at the time that I've read that. (Especially since I just did pilates with my pilates trainer yesterday... and no, not with chimpanzees either...) :P

I have nothing better to do these days.... :halo: sorryUmmm.... yes you do!!! How about maybe go back to the rink to skate, or go to the gym and do your off ice training... (or maybe even choreograph a new program for next season instead of improvising for once.) :twisted:

In any case, if I were you, I'd leave Burton alone!!! It doesn't do you or him any good to trash him... and certainly won't help you with your skating or your future medal standings. And remember, what goes around, come around.

I'm writing a PM to a moderator soon ... she should be around soon to lock it...

TimDavidSkate

05-23-2005, 06:35 AM

TIM DAVID - You are obsessed with me for some reason. I wouldn't doubt if it was you yourself that made all this trouble for me. :evil:

You have better watch your back and make sure you are lily white and perfect, because things have a way of coming back on you when you least expect it.

I will get to the bottom of things. Very shortly a report from my private investigator will prove who is the one who actually did this.

In the meantime you can #*&%$#!

Make no mistake, this is BURTON

Go ahead and investigate, you won't find anything on me.
1. A lot of competitors (even a few of your own competitors) who I am not good friends with are bashing you behind your back during Nationals (Kansas), so don't even put all the blame on me! :roll:

Terri C

05-23-2005, 08:05 AM

Go ahead and investigate, you won't find anything on me.
1. A lot of competitors (even a few of your own competitors) who I am not good friends with are bashing you behind your back during Nationals (Kansas), so don't even put all the blame on me! :roll:

Tim,
I'd watch it if I were you- a few folks have questioned YOUR eligibility!!!!

Mel On Ice

05-23-2005, 10:14 AM

Go ahead and investigate, you won't find anything on me.
1. A lot of competitors (even a few of your own competitors) who I am not good friends with are bashing you behind your back during Nationals (Kansas), so don't even put all the blame on me! :roll:

not anybody I encountered.

Stop the bashing. It's not becoming to adult skating.

manleywoman

05-23-2005, 10:46 AM

1. A lot of competitors (even a few of your own competitors) who I am not good friends with are bashing you behind your back during Nationals (Kansas), so don't even put all the blame on me!

And that makes it acceptable?

Here's something more acceptable: rather than talk about you behind your back, I'll tell it to you like it is right here, right now:

Seriously, TimDavid, you are 100% pathetic. You stir up trouble for no good reason. I hope nobody at your old or new job reads your blog, because you'd be in serious trouble with Human Resources.

I'm not saying Burton is completely off the hook here, but going around and trashing other competitors in this petty manner is so 5th grade. Grow up. Adult skating (any skating actually) is better off wthout the bitterness from other competitors. Why don't you get off your ### and go practice your own skating for a change.