spin direction

[kayskate]

I teach group lessons and have a fairly competent student who can spin well on 2 feet. During the class she pulled off a very nice spin. I congratulated her. The skating director noticed the spin as well and came over to my group. She reprimanded me in front of my class for not making this kid spin CCW. Not only was I embarrassed, I personally disagree w/ her, though I did not argue. She said if the child goes into FS lessons she will have to spin CCW. As a CW skater myself, who happens to be a very strong spinner, I was insulted. Skate director knows how beautifully I spin and that I am CW.

After she made her comment and physically pushed the student around the other way, she glided off. I was left w/ a group of confused children who wanted to know why spinning the other way was not allowed and if nobody spins the other way. Needless to say, I was b/w rock and a hard place. I am an advanced enough skater that I can demo most basic footwork, spins, and jumps in both directions. At early levels I encourage children to turn both ways.

Comments? Is her method normal and accepted?

Kay

[ferelu]

I don't like this skating director's comment at all. I'm a CW spinner myself and I tried to force myself to spin CCW and it really frustrated me so I just gave up and went back to my more comfortable side. I also have a friend who was CW but her coach made her go CCW and that made her two-foot all her doubles since she wasn't comfortable and then she quit freestyle. Just because the majority spin CCW, it doesn't meet that spinning CW is wrong, look at Johnny Weir, Emmanuel Sandhu, Carolina Kostner, yeck, Sarah Hughes, Olympic Gold medalist was CW. Let the child spin in the direction he/she pleases as long as he/she spins and jumps in the same direction.

[skaterinjapan]

I teach basic skills, and I let my students spin however they're most comfortable in the early stages. Most students are clearly stronger spinning in one direction and develop a preference for spinning that way as a result.

I'm surprised to hear that your skating director wants you to teach only spinning CCW. By any chance, does this carry out to the FS skaters at the rink? Does your rink have any CW skaters at higher levels? Perhaps the director is assuming that it is easier to coach CCW students if most coaches are CCW.

If this is the policy, it seems akin to forcing all children to become right-handed, even if running counter to their natural abilities. Heck, some of the best skaters in the world are CW skaters. Doesn't Sarah Hughes skate CW?

I guess my solution would be to make a game out of it with your students. In the lowest levels, you could ask students to spin in both directions to see who can get the most revolutions CW and CCW. That way, you're introducing students to the notion that there are two ways to spin, allowing them to pick their stronger side. However, based on what you've said about your director, it seems like she might prefer to exclude CW spinning entirely!

Good luck!

[kayskate]

More background.

I am new to coaching. I started last season w/ groups. I have been skating for about 12 yrs and have taken lessons from several pros in different states and different disciplines, so I have a varied background. I am also a professional educator, so I work w/ children FT in an academic environment. Hopefully, this means I know how to teach. I realise skating is different, and academic methods may not be equally applicable on the ice. Etc, etc.

About the rink. The rink is relatively new too. I have seen some higher level skaters there during afternoon FS, though I don't skate this particular session much anymore. The rink has a FS group class that is taught by the director and another person. Both of these people apparently turn CCW. The director harvests promising kids from groups into the FS program. She may prefer to teach all of the FS group kids CCW. Maybe she is not comfortable teaching CW. She seemed willing enough to take me on, but when she told me her fee, I was shocked and said I could not afford it. This was before I started teaching groups. Maybe this upset her. I have taken a few lessons from another qualified coach at the rink who charges less and was recommended by the director.

I personally don't agree w/ her policy, maybe b/c I am CW. I skate quite well CW. I don't know if I would have been able to achieve as much had someone forced me against my natural inclinations. However, I work at this rink and feel that I must follow the rules. I do not have a huge skating resume behind me to justify my argument. Actually, I never knew there was a rule or policy about spin direction. I think it is rather petty and foolish, :roll: but that is JMO and is probably biased.

Kay

[dbny]

I teach group and private lessons at three different rinks, with two different skating directors, and have been asked to work for a third at yet another rink. I only teach basic skills, as my own skills are not advanced, though I have advanced technical understanding from my roller dance days. My own coach is a very strong CW skater who can demo in both directions, and I can demo a two foot spin in both directions, though I am a CCW skater.

I have never been asked to teach only CCW, and have never seen it forced on any skater in the schools where I work.

I would be shocked and dismayed if a skating director did to me what yours did to you. It's terrible management technique not only because it confuses the kids, but it also undermines your authority and your standing in the kids' and parents' eyes. Is there anywhere else you can teach? Can you possibly take it up with the director in private? You could mention the embarrassment it caused you and the kids' confusion. I don't know if I would brave it.

edited to add: IMO, this director is sick, sick, sick! Be very careful, and be prepared to run the other way.

[backspin]

I've been teaching groups for 6 years, at 2 different rinks & I know 2 other skating directors very well, one of whom is PSA master rated in group. I have never, EVER heard of forcing kids to only spin CCW. In fact, amongst ourselves we've had several discussions on how to best determine which is a skater's dominant side, different things to watch for, tests to try. What do you know of your skating director's background? Trust me, this is her own personal "thing" that she is imposing on the program, and would NOT be sanctioned by either the PSA or the USFSA.

I'm sorry I can't give you good advice as far as how to go forward from here--though I definitely think that bringing up the issue of her cutting you down in front of your class (spectacularly unprofessional) would definitely be appropriate. Personally, I'd request not to be given that level of class anymore, explaining that you cannot agree with that policy (though it's a shame, because you're probably one of the better teachers of spins! I find it hard to teach spins really well.). You could still work with the lower level classes........?? I don't know. Tell her to talk to Johnny Weir. "Sorry, Johnny, you're just not good enough. You'll have to relearn all your jumps & spins the *right* way."

ETA: Idea! :arrow: send the USFS an email, innocently posing the question: you're a new instructor--should you be making your students all spin the same direction? They're pretty responsive & helpful--you can look through the website to find the correct person to address. Then show their reply to the diktator direktor!! :P

[Lmarletto]

I took group lessons at a rink where a number of instructors were adamant that right-handed = CCW spinner/jumper. They also said CCW was "preferred", made practicing on freestyle sessions easier, stuff that made me think they had an emotional attachment to CCW direction, rather than any knowledge about how to best determine a skater's natural direction. After reading this thread, I wouldn't be surprised if maybe those coaches just didn't feel competent to teach a CW skater.

My daughter now takes private lessons at that rink with a coach who has never even commented on her natural inclination to spin and jump CW. My daughter's coach is quite a bit younger than the CCW obsessed coaches. I wonder if it's a generational thing.

Personally, I wouldn't tolerate a working environment where my boss chose public embarrassment as a way to handle philosophical differences. Life is too short and skating (even teaching skating) should be fun.

[kayskate]

HaHa to the "direktor" thing!

I am glad I posted here. I felt very embarrassed and came home hanging my head in shame. This person was a director at another rink. From what I have heard from other instructors and adult skaters at the rink, she has a lot of experience. One woman almost peed her pants when she saw her daughter was in a group class the director was teaching that day. I found that stupid. For basic skills, IMO, a master level coach may not be any different from a stiff like me. I do not know if Director is master rated. All I know about her is hearsay. She is 50-60 yrs old. Hard to tell. She is definitely a former competitor during the days of figures.

Thank you all for the advice about how to go forward. I agree w/ the person who said "be ready to run". Their is also some nepotism at work in this rink. No surprise. That kind of politics is at work everywhere. She had relatives teaching classes, one a typical adult bronze skater, another a young teen who could barely pass prelim. I don't want to blow bubbles up my own butt here, but I guess they may be intimidated by me. I get lots of compliments from students and parents. One parent offered me a tip a couple of weeks ago. Parents hope their kids will be in my class next session. Two kids wanted to retake a class if I would be their teacher again. Ok, horn tooting over.

I don't have a skating resume to back me up. I never considered coaching as a serious option for myself. I fell into this when a friend said the rink needed pros. This person carries about the same credentials I have. Virtually none. I was honest w/ Director from day one. I told her my background. She welcomed me w/ open arms. Maybe she was desperate. maybe she did not have enough relatives to fill all of the vacancies.

And for what I like to each. I feel most effective w/ kids learning FS skills. If a kid can skate a little, I can teach them a lot. I love teaching turns, spins, etc. I love teaching kids to do spirals and lunges. We make cool combos out of these basics. Kids walk away w/ pretty skills they can handle. Picking tiny tots off the ice is okay, but not what I really want to do.

I actually came home yesterday so annoyed, I wondered if I should even carry on w/ this foolishness. :frus: I did this last yr w/o problems. Director seemed to be satisfied w/ my performance and said I could teach as much as I wanted. She wanted me there for every class session. What the heck happened? Who did I offend? How? I have a FT job and I do this b/c I enjoy it. If it becomes too much headache, I might bow out. This rink is close to my home, so it is a convenient way to have some fun, gain experience, and a little extra $.

Sorry so long winded. I have to write this thing up in my journal. It is certainly the most upset I have ever been as a skater.

Kay

[flippet]

but I guess they may be intimidated by me..<snip>...What the heck happened? Who did I offend? How?
That's exactly it. This woman sounds very much like a director where I used to skate (I'd think it may be the same, except I don't think you're in my area). One had to get firmly on her good side, or you were very much on her bad side. These people have serious insecurity issues. They love having good people underneath them....but not 'too' good. Just enough so that they personally get the credit for a great program....but once an individual (who hasn't sucked up enough) starts getting that credit, they become highly offended---and then it's time to look out.

With me, I'm just an adult skater...not superb by any stretch, but the best one that was currently in group lessons. I'd often give (asked for) help to my classmates, and especially to a friend of mine who'd skate the lunchtime sessions with me, but didn't take lessons. This director got miffed for whatever reason, but tried to intimidate my friend, rather than me. (In fact, she never brought it up with me at all, but it was clear to my friend that she was upset about it.) This director wanted my friend to take lessons from her, personally. (I also think something was mentioned about me 'teaching' on public sessions....but since I wasn't accepting any form of payment for giving my friend a few tips (as adults will do), what were they really going to do about it?) I would have loved to help teach the tots, but I knew that it was never going to happen at that rink. I wasn't willing to kiss her butt to do it.

What I'd do: try to speak to the director in private. You never know....maybe she really is nice underneath, and didn't realize how she came across. (Maybe not, but then you'll know for sure!) Also, I'd continue to teach the best methods for your students. At the least, I'd tell that particular student that the director is dead wrong in this case, and that many skaters turn CW, and are very successful--and that she(he?) shouldn't be intimidated into doing something so unnatural. And then I'd determine whether it's worth it to continue to stand up to this director if necessary, or whether it's too much stress that you don't need. But if you do go, make sure the director (and others) knows exactly why.


For what it's worth, my friend also skates CW (I'm CCW), and while it took a little bit more thought to reverse instructions for her, and look out for traffic, any good coach ought to be able to do it with very little trouble at all. Any coach who won't is just lazy.

[Melzorina]

I don't understand why you were reprimanded for letting your student spin in her natural direction. I myself am a CW spinner and A CCW jumper, and have never been encouraged to do any differently. When my instructor learnt that I spun CW, when most people spin CCW, he just had to reverse directions. He didn't force or even try to make to spin the other way.

I think the skating director is in the wrong for doing what he/she did.

[skaterinjapan]

I am glad I posted here. I felt very embarrassed and came home hanging my head in shame...

Kay

Hi Kay,

I hope you feel a little better now. I hardly think you need to feel embarrassed at all about teaching your students to spin CW! If anybody, it's the director who should be embarrassed for how she handled the situation directly in front of the students. However, I'm guessing she feels no shame, if she perceives it as having to correct the mistakes of someone less experienced than herself.

In my first skating job, I had a director like yours. I was a pre-preliminary skater in my late teens who enjoyed working with the tot classes. However, in my director's eyes, I didn't have enough credentials to teach even the tots. (Ironically enough, the skating director was only in her early 20s herself.) She would provide any excuse as a reason why I shouldn't be teaching, telling me how I should be spending my FS sessions instead. She became dictatorial in other ways, too--telling older, more experienced coaches that they shouldn't play games with students, as the students were there primarily to learn. Needless to say, I quit working there, and a lot of the more experienced coaches also switched to other rinks. I now work at a rink where I'm valued as a coach, and I have never looked back!

You don't need to work at a place where your teaching authority is undermined or criticized every time you do something that you think is reasonable. You have a good attitude--you can take the job or leave it! If you ever need it, I'm sure your experience will help you find a position at a different rink. Anyway, I hope the support here helps you continue to make the right decisions, both for yourself and your students. :)

[timing]

I also have a friend who was CW but her coach made her go CCW and that made her two-foot all her doubles since she wasn't comfortable and then she quit freestyle.
I wonder how common this is? I know a skater who hasn't been able to get clean doubles and is now relearning all jumps in the opposite direction as the coach thinks this will help.

[Hydroblade]

I skate CW and i can't believe those coaches would do that. When my club noticed i went the otherway they accepted it. I was and am still the oddball skater in my club but it's no problem really. I also teach beginning figureskaters and we always try to figure out which way they spin first so we don't teach them wrong.

Those caoches could be extinguishing great talent by making them jump normal.

[dbny]

Those caoches could be extinguishing great talent by making them jump normal.

Er, don't you mean "CCW"?

[Andie]

I agree with you and what others have said, that director was wrong for saying that. I think a child (or adult, for that matter) should do turns and spins first in the most comfortable direction, not what's considered "normal." If they try to force a naturally CW child to spin CCW, it's like in the old days when people tried to "force" left-handed kids to use their right hand instead.

I guess I'm stating the obvious, but just wanted to say I don't think you should be embarrassed. I would have done the same thing you did.

At one rink relatively close to me, there used to be a woman there (who I briefly took lessons from) who was maybe Delta or FS 1 level. And she was teaching lower-level people, as I was. I don't think that rink is very strict.

BTW I'm a CCW and it wouldn't be right if someone wanted me to go CW.

[samba]

My son is left handed and the coach noticed very early on that he did jumps and spins in the opposite direction to most people so she taught him that way, this seemed to make sense to us at the time as I wouldnt encourage him to write with his right hand as this would not feel natural to him. However this did affect his future in ice skating, for example he later had to learn the normal direction for jumps and spins to enable him to be accepted for shows, also he enjoyed competing in pairs and had to do the turns in the lifts in the opposite direction to what he is used to so there was another thing he had to start again with later in life. :??

[slusher]

I'm a CW skater (and a lousy spinner). I've never been reprimanded for spinning or jumping the wrong way when being a PA on Canskate and I do all the levels from preschoolers to pre-prelim. Kids are encouraged to jump and spin inwhichever way they want, the only qualification to that is that they have to jump and spin in the same direction. No jumping one way and spinning the other, they have to pick one way and stick with it. Having the head coach or skating director tell you that only CCW is allowed is just plain wrong.

However, from my experience leading groups, I have taught myself to spin and at least waltz jump in the CCW direction, because I found that the kids copied exactly what I did, so I learned to do it the way of the majority. It was kind of funny/weird to see them try to jump CW. Eeek! so I learned CCW myself real quick. If a kid wanted both ways, I was happy to demonstrate that. So just maybe that's the reason for "only" CCW because it's common, but it was said to you in terrible way. That's just bad bad bad.

Although, being a CW person made synchro incredibly difficult as it's all choreographed for CCW skaters. The upside of all of this is that I don't really have a "bad" side in footwork, I go both ways, but don't left-handers do that all day long, adapt and adjust to a righty world?

[samba]

Slusher you have my full admiration along with all lefties, I'm just glad my boy was not from my generation, in those bad old days you had to use your right hand for writing and the "normal way" when using a knife and fork when you were at school in my part of the UK, left was just totally unacceptable so you can imagine the learning difficulties some of the poor kids of my generation had, both then and now you have to be doubly focused on everything. :bow:

[kayskate]

I demo basic spins and simple jumps both ways for kids and usually have them stop and turn the other way for spins. I teach bunny hops, spirals, 3turns, etc. both ways in basic skills classes.

I actually am a public school teacher. I have a couple of students who said they started in parochial school and were made to write righty even though they are naturally left-handed. One kid became fully ambidexterous. The other has terrible handwriting. So this is still going on in some places.

Kay