Question Judging Results

[FAJ]

My daughter was in a skating competition in Delaware and the judging was really out of line. In my daughter's freestyle program at the prepreliminary level she skated a clean program with two axels. She has done this program before in competition and done well at some major events. In the group of girls she skated against, four fell on their jumps, only a couple even attempted an axel and only one landed it. I am not a new parent to skating but was new to this particular competition. I saw the quality of skating of the others. They were not good at sit spins, and so forth. When she was done with her program our coach was so happy as she was and our entire group of experienced skating parents. We got the results, she was 11th out of 13th. All of us were completely shocked. The coach said to my daughter I wish I could tell you what to correct to make it better but there is nothing. I have nothing to tell you. You did everything I asked. My daughter said it was the best she had ever skated that program and I have to agree, as I have watched her in many competitions. Myself and our coach went to speak to the judges to find out what the problem was as they saw it with her program, we were refused the right to speak with them. My coach asked for the judge's comment sheets, we were told there were none. We went to the head of the skating competition and were only shown the scoring sheets which are posted and how they score which we already knew because another parent had already questioned their scoring. A similar thing happened to my daughter after she skated her compulsary program. Her coach was able to get hold of a judge after that one and the judge, right after the competition said they didn't remember what happened in the event and they didn't remember any of the skaters. This was after the event, not a week later. My daughter is suppose to go there and skate another event but my feeling is she would do just as well if she went out on the ice and did the hokey pockey, it won't matter what she does, we know where she'll place. Has this happened to other skaters as well and what do you do? I know I'll never have my daughter compete at this club again but there were also no answers. My coach finally spoke to a judge who said we judge on the presence on the ice, if the skater falls on a jump or does not do the jump perfectly we just count that as a non-event and there is no consideration given to the degree of difficulty of the program. That is as subjective as you get because by every standard my daughter had that presence along with the difficult elements. I have a daughter who was upset not because she didn't get a medal or because she had not skated well but as she said, "I know I skated better than they said," and that's whats upsetting. What if anything is a parent to do and how do you have your child compete in a sport that has no standard to judging at the local levels?

[skaternum]

I'm sorry, but you lost me when you said your daughter did two axels in pre-preliminary!

[fadedstardust]

Well, you and your daughter should be thankful, because you have learned a valuable lesson early. Figure skating is all about what your name is, who you know, and who's *** you kiss. Sure if you are the best skater that will sometimes reward you, but not always. There's nothing abnormal about the story I read. Judging isn't only shady at local levels- you'll find it all the way through to the Senior Olympics. It's the way it is, the way it's always been, and most likely the way it will always be. Is it fair? No, but such is life. All your daughter can do is skate the best she can and hope that is enough, and all you can do is stand behind her no matter where she places. This is why skaters who've grown up in this sport learn that what is most important is to skate your personal best, not where you place, cause you have no control over that. It's a reality of the sport, either that's acceptable for you guys, or maybe you should find a sport that isn't judged. Because this is just how it's gonna go. Also, I am NOT sure you can do two axels at pre-pre level, so perhaps points were taken off. But even if they weren't, that still wouldn't make the story abnormal or unusual for this sport.

[eosrulz]

The judges wouldn't even talk to you??? That is messed up. I think judges should always be available for questions, I mean that's how skaters improve. God, judges are such idiots, I bet most of them don't even give a damn either. They are so full of themselves... well I could sit here all day saying what I think about judges, but that's not gonna do anything. So my advice is skate for fun or don't skate at all.

[luna_skater]

God, judges are such idiots, I bet most of them don't even give a damn either. They are so full of themselves...

:roll: Give me a break. You really think judges do what they do because they are conceited and don't care about the skaters? I know a number of judges. They are former skaters who wanted to stay involved in the sport and do something positive for it. Of course there are bad apples in every lot, but what an ignorant thing to say.

[TreSk8sAZ]

First off, to all of those who are questioning, in many (if not most) competitions, an axel IS allowed at the pre-pre level and may be repeated in a program.

Secondly, as fadedstardust said, skating is very political. We have a rivalry between two large towns (A and B) in our state. All of the skaters in town A know that when we go to B, we must skate perfectly in order to place higher than third. Town B's skaters know the same is true when they come to our rink. Sometimes, even out of state skaters have a better chance in town B than we do. It's just how it is.

Another problem is that judges must get to know you. If you went to a new club for the first time and there were no judges familiar with your daughter, that is another reason she may be placed lower. It takes awhile to get your presence known in this sport.

Just tell her to keep trying. It's not fair (and unfathomable that the judges would not talk to you), but that's often how this sport is. Not every competition is like this, but unfortunately it is not uncommon. (Call me cynical if you must, but it's what I've seen).

Tell your daughter good luck and keep her head up. A few more great skates in competitions and things might turn around.

[Mrs Redboots]

Tell your daughter, and remind yourself, that neither of you can control what the other skaters do, and neither of you can control what the judges think. All she can do is go out there and skate her absolute best and, provided she comes off the ice feeling pleased with how she skated, she's a winner, no matter where the judges placed her. That is all that matters. Placement is nice, but if you get too caught up in it, you ruin the sport for yourself, your skater, and the other skaters involved.

Mind you, all too often one comes off the ice thinking "Oh [expletive deleted], please can I do that again?", but that's another story!

[jenlyon60]

It also may well have been that the judges didn't have time to chat with you or your coach. Often at competitions, judges may only have a very few minutes break to catch some coffee, thaw out the feet a bit, use the washroom, etc. before they are due back out for another event. And if they were out of town judges who came in for the competition, they may be on a very tight schedule to get to the airport to catch their flight(s) home (especially in light of the lines at some airports for security checkpoints these days)

Another thing to remember, is that after a judge has seen several groups of a lower level event, in hindsight it can be hard to distinguish the skaters without a chance to grab their worksheet from the event.

[NickiT]

I fully sympathise with you and your daughter on this one. Both myself and my daughter have had similar experiences where we've had a fantastic skate and been placed below others who were pretty obviously less strong.

My own daughter is going through a bit of a crisis right now, feeling despondent about her skating and thinking about giving it up. She's due to take her first set of NISA tests in December and we're hoping that'll give her a boost, especially after her recent disappointment at our club field moves competition.

In this competition she skated as my coach put it, perfectly. She was well up there with the top two skaters so we were totally surprised when she dropped to fourth place. She really didn't need this at this time when a boost is so needed, and couldn't understand how her great skate was pushed below someone's whose wasn't so great. We did query the competition secretary and it turned out that in fact one judge had placed her first, but this was no consolation to her.

I've just explained to her exactly what my coach says. At the end of the day she, like myself and like your daughter, must learn to skate for herself and as long as we all feel happy with the way we skated that should be what is important. Easier said than done though I know.

Nicki

[KJD]

The only other possibility besides those listed above is that if she did two axels and one wasn't in combination. I don't believe you can repeat the jump if it isn't in combination so if they were two solo axels, that might have given you a deduction. It is also possible that some of the judges may not have thought the jumps were clean. I do know that at this level, judges are "on the lookout" for this sort of thing, and even if they were clean, sometimes if they don't know you, you definitely don't get the benefit of the doubt. Other than that, I agree with all of the above. Helping your daughter to understand that it is a subjective sport and if you feel good about what you did, that's the best place to be in.

[suiyan]

This may not apply in your daughters case but when my daughter was young I was most upset when after doing an axel and double salchow she was second last in a competiton where no-one else landed a jump higher than an axel. The coach told me the judges were biased the judges wouldn't talk to me. I read up on the rules and familiarised myself with the jumps. At the next competiton I videotaped everyone and wartched all jumps in slow motion. My daughter had the most cheated jumps rotating on her toepicks before the jumps and on the ice after the jumps.It was obvious it was her technique not the judges that was at fault. She won many competitions because she was artistic and had beautiful movement around the ice but when her jumps were properly assessed she lost. I changed coaches and later she changed disciplines to dance.

[icedancer2]

I read up on the rules and familiarised myself with the jumps. At the next competiton I videotaped everyone and wartched all jumps in slow motion. My daughter had the most cheated jumps rotating on her toepicks before the jumps and on the ice after the jumps.It was obvious it was her technique not the judges that was at fault.

You know I was thinking about this very thing when I first saw this thread. You see a lot of axels and supposed doubles out there that are cheated at the beginning of the jump, but they are landed fine. The judges look for this and will score lower because the skater is not completing the revolution correctly. I'm wondering if this is going on with FAJ's daughter.

Kudos to you for taking the time to videotape those programs!!

[Stormy]

There's been a lot of good replies. Of course, the comment about the judges being idiots really burned me(I supposed years of trial judging and getting appointments means you're an idiot), but it was obviously from a very ignorant, and dare I say bitter, person so I'll let that go.
At pre-pre level, since there are so many skaters with basically the same elements, the judges are looking for the overall quality of stroking, speed, footwork (how much and how well), how many revolutions on spins...things like that. Perhaps your skater may have had a lower faster sit spin, but another skater had 10 revolutions to your daughter's 5. The 10 would be scored higher. There IS a standard, believe me, at every single level.
I've questioned my own results a few times, when I felt I should have placed higher and times when I've won and wondered why, but I've never even fathomed going after and questioning the judges in a competition. A test, perhaps I would, but never a competiton. I respect the judges and their placements.
Like others have said, your daughter must skate for herself, and take the good with the bad and the confusing! This honestly won't be the last time this may happen to her. As long as she loves to skate, she's doing ok. :)

[eosrulz]

I am going to go out on a limb here and say this, which applies to about 75% of judges:

Some judges are incompetent. Of course they past their tiral judging and got to judge at higher competitions, duh, there is a huge shortage of judges cause many people don't want to be involved in that world full of b.s. But for the most part they barely know how to rank skaters, and just put them in some random order.
Some other judges are senile. When I go to competitions I look up at the judges panal, I usually see old women. Old women who can barely see, and their brains don't quite process that fast, let me tell you. So I'm sure these judges miss A LOT during a competition and therefore rank the skaters incorrectly. I can rememebr watching a competition before, and one judge was looking at her sheet, i swear to god, like 50% of the time during a program. I don't know what that judge was doing, writing an essay or something, but the judge literally missed half the program, including some jumps, and even entire spins! It was impossible for that judge to judge the competition correctly based on what she saw. Sometimes I often see judges just seem to daydream through a program, kinda look around the rink, look at the audience, and then look at the skater when they feel like it. How is this justified???
So as you can tell I do NOT have confidence in most of the judges that judge these days. Now I know there are lotz of really good judges that are competent and do do their best, but I'm afraid the incompetent, senile judges outnumber the good ones. Therefore, figure skating juding is messed up. And until we get more judges that give a damn it will remain messed up forever. End of story.

[fadedstardust]

Wow, so much hate for the judges, it's ridiculous. You don't want to be subject to judging, don't join a judged sport then. I can tell you that there is a much better chance that the judges are biased than that they are inconpetent. Most judges DO know what they are doing and talking about, believe it or not. I have much respect for judges, it's not an easy job and they still do it. And who cares if you get screwed out of one medal because the "judge wasn't looking". It. Happens. As long as it isn't a qualifying competition, it doesn't really matter anyway, and qualifying competitions do have great judges, so...there you go.

[Mrs Redboots]

Indeed, fadedstardust is right. It takes several years of training to become a judge at even the lowest levels, and a great many years to become an international judge. Yes, many are elderly, which isn't too surprising, since many competitions happen mid-week and how many days holiday would you be prepared to give up to sit in a freezing cold ice-rink to judge a plethora of not-very-good small girls? So many, if not most, of the judges we see at mid-week competitions are retired people.

And yes, they are people. They are human beings, and as such, subject to the same pressures and temptations as the rest of us. They make mistakes. I know one judge who went for his break shaking his head and going, "Oh dear, I really did lose the plot for a bit back there!" as his marks had not tallied with the other judges' marks.

But as you go to more and more competitions, you get to know more and more judges. You get to know who likes what - the one who likes it if solo dancers use their arms to express the dance, and the one who marks you way down if your arms are better than your edges! You learn who is approachable and will tell you what you need to do to improve - or, indeed, who will talk you through a class they're not judging at that minute, and explain where the skaters are losing marks, and why. You learn who can be relied on to judge you fairly (i.e. better than your competition!!!), and who just doesn't care for your particular style. And so it goes.

I think proof positive that eosrulz' views are very much the minority comes from a letter in this quarter's Ice Link, the British Ice-skating body's publication. The letter is from an extremely popular judge who has been ill over the last few months, thanking everybody for the literally hundreds of get-well cards and other good wishes she has received. I think that just shows how most skaters view judges!

[eosrulz]

Wow, so much hate for the judges, it's ridiculous. You don't want to be subject to judging, don't join a judged sport then. I can tell you that there is a much better chance that the judges are biased than that they are inconpetent. Most judges DO know what they are doing and talking about, believe it or not. I have much respect for judges, it's not an easy job and they still do it. And who cares if you get screwed out of one medal because the "judge wasn't looking". It. Happens. As long as it isn't a qualifying competition, it doesn't really matter anyway, and qualifying competitions do have great judges, so...there you go.

Who cares??? Every skater who has ever been cheated out of a medal, I'm sure. Obviously you were never a competitive skater, because skaters who work extremenly hard and devote lots of time to skating expect to get the results they deserve, and just because the competition isn't a qualifying competition doesn't mean the judges can do whatever the heck they want!!! There is NO excuse for a judge to be incompetent, bias, or lazy. It's unfortunate that there is a shortage of judges, which is the only reason why the lousy judges are still allowed to judge. And by the way, qualifying competition judges are the most bias judges of them all!!!

I think that just shows how most skaters view judges!

I ***HIGHLY*** doubt that.

[Stormy]

Makes me wonder why you even skate at all....you can say anything you want but I doubt you're going to get anyone to agree with you! :giveup:

[fadedstardust]

Who cares??? Every skater who has ever been cheated out of a medal, I'm sure. Obviously you were never a competitive skater, because skaters who work extremenly hard and devote lots of time to skating expect to get the results they deserve, and just because the competition isn't a qualifying competition doesn't mean the judges can do whatever the heck they want!!! There is NO excuse for a judge to be incompetent, bias, or lazy. It's unfortunate that there is a shortage of judges, which is the only reason why the lousy judges are still allowed to judge. And by the way, qualifying competition judges are the most bias judges of them all!!!


I am a competitive skater, have been since I was little, and on the contrary, I know enough about competitions to know which ones matter and which ones don't. The ones that can send you to Nationals matter, the ones where you just get yet another shiny little trophy does not- those are meant to test your programs out and get a feel for the season at the higher levels. If you get worked up about every single competition, you'll never get anywhere. The key is to skate the best that you can, and be happy with it. If you're not, well..what are you going to do? Oh, yeah, become bitter, as examplified here. Sorry you were "cheated" out a medal. It's happened to all of us. And you know what? Most of us *don't* care. Do you think Michelle Kwan cares if when she was 6 she lost a pre-juv competition because someone wasn't looking at her for twenty seconds? Do you really think so? Come on. It DOESN'T matter. If you have such a disrespectful attitude, believe it or not, judges will hear about it, or will see it, and it won't bode well for you. I will never understand these negative attitudes. If you need a medal so bad join ISI, everyone medals there. And if you are a good enough skater with a good enough skate on that night, you WILL qualify at important competitions, whether the judges are biased or not.

[dbny]

I've started a "Judging Horror Stories" thread on the "On Ice - Skaters" forum.

[jp1andOnly]

Sicne I know A LOT of judges in EOS section I should forward this thread to them and see how you do from now on in. Chances are that you would be getting a lot of dirty looks from a lot of people.

GROW UP. Yes, there are some judges who probably should move on but for the most part they are pretty fair. And if there is a shortage of judges why not become one YOURSELF.

This is the exact reason I gave up teaching high school...you probably critize every teacher and make our lives hell because you THINK you know what you are talking about.

You need a good slap upside the head to get some sense into ya


Who cares??? Every skater who has ever been cheated out of a medal, I'm sure. Obviously you were never a competitive skater, because skaters who work extremenly hard and devote lots of time to skating expect to get the results they deserve, and just because the competition isn't a qualifying competition doesn't mean the judges can do whatever the heck they want!!! There is NO excuse for a judge to be incompetent, bias, or lazy. It's unfortunate that there is a shortage of judges, which is the only reason why the lousy judges are still allowed to judge. And by the way, qualifying competition judges are the most bias judges of them all!!!



I ***HIGHLY*** doubt that.

[eosrulz]

I am a competitive skater, have been since I was little, and on the contrary, I know enough about competitions to know which ones matter and which ones don't. The ones that can send you to Nationals matter, the ones where you just get yet another shiny little trophy does not- those are meant to test your programs out and get a feel for the season at the higher levels. If you get worked up about every single competition, you'll never get anywhere. The key is to skate the best that you can, and be happy with it. If you're not, well..what are you going to do? Oh, yeah, become bitter, as examplified here. Sorry you were "cheated" out a medal. It's happened to all of us. And you know what? Most of us *don't* care. Do you think Michelle Kwan cares if when she was 6 she lost a pre-juv competition because someone wasn't looking at her for twenty seconds? Do you really think so? Come on. It DOESN'T matter. If you have such a disrespectful attitude, believe it or not, judges will hear about it, or will see it, and it won't bode well for you. I will never understand these negative attitudes. If you need a medal so bad join ISI, everyone medals there. And if you are a good enough skater with a good enough skate on that night, you WILL qualify at important competitions, whether the judges are biased or not.

Obviously you are a skater who has lost so many times that you have just given up hope of getting anywhere...
And non-qualifying competitions do matter because they are competitions where you get a name for yourself so you WILL get the marks at qualifying competitions and move on. Obviously you aren't familiar with how the "system" works.


Sicne I know A LOT of judges in EOS section I should forward this thread to them and see how you do from now on in. Chances are that you would be getting a lot of dirty looks from a lot of people.

GROW UP. Yes, there are some judges who probably should move on but for the most part they are pretty fair. And if there is a shortage of judges why not become one YOURSELF.

This is the exact reason I gave up teaching high school...you probably critize every teacher and make our lives hell because you THINK you know what you are talking about.

You need a good slap upside the head to get some sense into ya

Umm, go ahead and forward it, you don't know who I am, remember? ;)

Obviously you aren't going to agree with a thing I say because you ARE a judge, and you are just sticking up for your fellow judges. Plus you gave up your teaching career to pursure judging, so you don't want to face the fact that you gave up your life to pursue something that is corrupt and full of b.s. well don't worry, you'll face it someday, when you are over 65 and in the integrity vs. despair portion of your life you will realize your life has been pointless. Congratulations!

[jp1andOnly]

Obviously you are a skater who has lost so many times that

Obviously you aren't going to agree with a thing I say because you ARE a judge, and you are just sticking up for your fellow judges. Plus you gave up your teaching career to pursure judging, so you don't want to face the fact that you gave up your life to pursue something that is corrupt and full of b.s. well don't worry, you'll face it someday, when you are over 65 and in the integrity vs. despair portion of your life you will realize your life has been pointless. Congratulations!

I AM NOT A JUDGE. Though I have done my prelim trial judging I do not judge. I am a teacher and continue to do so.

Yes, I don't know who you are but that could be solved if I had the time to do some digging.

But unlike yourself I have better things to do with my life.

And as they say...what goes around, comes around. One day when you grow up you will understand. I hope you keep all the posts you have posted and one day show them to your children so they can see just what kind of child you once were.

[eosrulz]

I AM NOT A JUDGE. Though I have done my prelim trial judging I do not judge. I am a teacher and continue to do so.

Yes, I don't know who you are but that could be solved if I had the time to do some digging.

But unlike yourself I have better things to do with my life.

And as they say...what goes around, comes around. One day when you grow up you will understand. I hope you keep all the posts you have posted and one day show them to your children so they can see just what kind of child you once were.

Say you don't mean that! Please! You are causing me serious psychological damage, and making me feel bad about myself! Is that what you want to be known for???

[fadedstardust]

Obviously you are a skater who has lost so many times that you have just given up hope of getting anywhere...
And non-qualifying competitions do matter because they are competitions where you get a name for yourself so you WILL get the marks at qualifying competitions and move on. Obviously you aren't familiar with how the "system" works.


So, which GP assignments can we see you skating in? When's the last time I saw you on tv in the top five at an international event? You're doing a lot of talking for someone who has so few skating achievements that they have to obsess over one lousy lost competition, the fact that I don't care if I lose a competition is because I'm usually happy with my placements, of course if all you have are bad placements, you wouldn't know the difference. If I were having troubles with my competing, I certainly wouldn't blame it on the judges, the fact that you do implies you are the one having problems, not me. Have I been to Sectionals? Twice. Have I made it out? Not yet. Have I improved my results over the years? Yes, and I have met some GREAT judges who have given me tips on how to do so. If I thought I was never going anywhere I wouldn't still be spending what I spend yearly for training costs. I don't see how the fact that I don't blame bad skating performances on judges like you do shows that I've "failed a lot" or "lost hope", I just know that it's a JUDGED SPORT and the only thing you can change is yourself and the way you perform and skate. You clearly haven't learned that yet, and I'm fairly certain you won't get anywhere in the world, skating or otherwise, before you have, so I'm not too worried about you making TOO many judges' lives hell. How can you even keep skating with such a horrible outlook and attitude on the sport. You're suppose to love this, you know? It's supposed to make you happy, seeing responses like this is so sad.

Oh, and, you can make a "name for yourself" without being on the top step of the podium. If you are a gracious loser, rather than an immature infant who can't even take defeat and blames it on anyone other than themselves- that'll show. And trust me, you will make a name for yourself, and it won't be a good one. Unless you already have, which would explain why judges are "biased" against you. If I knew a skater thought I was a senile imbecile who doesn't judge anyone fairly, you can bet I wouldn't give them any gifts, either. I'm done with this conversation, but, you know, you can insult the judges, it won't raise your comp scores, and you can insult me, and pretend to know what my competition results are even though we aren't even in the same region, but it's not going to make you skate any better or raise your scores, either. I'm just trying to help you see that losing isn't the end of the world and that you can make it anyway if you only have the right attitude about it and grow from it. The reason why you started to insult ME for not whining on and on about the injustice of a lost competition is beyond me- what's the point of it exactly, does it really make you feel any better?

[eosrulz]

....yes :D

[roza]

eosrulz, if you really have such self-esteem issues that in order to feel better about yourself you have to resort to degrading others on message boards, then I suggest you get in touch with your local mental health service. They can get you the proper help you need within a far more suitable environment than a public message board. I'm not expert, but is seems to be as if your congitive processes have become eschewed.

[_back_layback_]

although i don't agree with the way eosrulz said it, and with what he said, i do agree that non-qualifying competitions do matter, and whether you like it or not they *do* make a name for competitors. Also, they judges won't know if you are a sore loser or sore winner, they just see how you skate. I am not questioning the competence of the EOS judges, but the judging seemed biased. Well, sometimes more than seemed. And with some ordinals and outcomes, you *do* have to wonder sometimes.

If I think that the judges were biased in my event and marked me down, I will get upset, but I usually won't go talk to the judges unless it is something extreme. Like once at a non-qualifying summer competition I skated a good program, not gold medal-standard in that competition, but good nonetheless. I had landed everything, but cheated one jump.

I got 5th overall out of 18, and was happy with the result. I looked at the ordinals and all the placements were about the same, some 5th and 4th places, maybe a 3rd. But one judge gave me last. :frus: I wasn't so upset that I would go to the judge, but the referee came up to us and said he didn't know what the judge was thinking and offered to go talk to her for us. :lol:

I have seen many events at competitions (qualifying ones) where skaters without the "name" had a good skate, but were marked lower than skaters that skated worse, but had the "name". While this may not be fair, the judges want to send people they think will do well at at the next competition, based on how they did last year and this years non-qualifying competitions. I don't think you should make a big deal out of non-qualifying results, but they do matter.

[eosrulz]

Thank you back layback! I totally agree. Finally, someone with some sense on this board.

[fadedstardust]

Yes, as a WHOLE, non-quals matter some, but ONE competition does not. I agree, winning many non-qualifyings can help you make a name for yourself. But if you lose one, it won' do jack squat to your reputation. And as back_layback said, they may matter, but there's no need to make a huge deal over it, because it won't change anything. Of course there are problems with judging- bias, cheating, it's all there, but you know that, and what can you do? Nothing. And I don't see back_layback bad-mouthing judges all over this board, which shows that despite the fact that one judge was clearly biased against her at one competition (and she had every right to be upset about that at the time) she's gotten over it, moved on, and realized that it doesn't mean every judge hates her and that her career is over. That is a healthy reaction from a mentally healthy person. Yours, EOSrules, is not.

Meanwhile I'd like to add that yes, if you are going to blame your losses on judges and act in public the way EOSrules is acting on this board, it does get back to the judges. Sometimes you don't know who's watching/listening to your antics at competition/rink practices.

[eosrulz]

OH PLEASE! Stop putting on such a show! If everyone on this board would actually SPEAK THEIR MIND instead of hiding their real thoughts and posting some b.s. that makes them look good, then you would see there would be more reactions just like mine. Also stop trying to deny that someone agrees with ME and not with YOU, back layback agrees with me, so go cry about it! :P

[roza]

OKl, I'll speak my mind, EOSrulz. Quit being an arrogant brat and accept that people have a different opinion/philosophy to you. I think you would get more people agreeing with you if you weren't so cavalier in your attitude. Oh well, at least I can put you on the ignore list so I can actaully enjoy the civilised discussion.

[what!]

i didnt know 9 year olds could use computers... but everyone has an opinion

[what!]

stop changing ur post... and cavalier's a big word for someone who argues wit 9 year olds...

[Mrs Redboots]

OH PLEASE! Stop putting on such a show! If everyone on this board would actually SPEAK THEIR MIND instead of hiding their real thoughts and posting some b.s. that makes them look good, then you would see there would be more reactions just like mine. Also stop trying to deny that someone agrees with ME and not with YOU, back layback agrees with me, so go cry about it! :POkay - I'll speak my mind. Judges are not machines, they are human. They make mistakes. So what? So do the judges, or their equivalents, in every other sport - ever heard a football crowd chanting "The referee's a w******!"

Unless and until we have machines judging every sport, mistakes will occasionally be made - and even if we *did* have machines judging, there'd be people accusing *them* of bias, and going "We wuz robbed!"

So okay, we don't always like the judges' decisions - ain't that tough? We just have to accept that sometimes we aren't going to win, and sometimes, perhaps, we lose because of a poor judging decision. And we have to learn how to deal with it. This is what grown-ups do - babies weep and wail and moan and have "issues" with their self-esteem.....

Moreover, I would suggest that at least 9 times out of 10, and probably more, the "judges' bad decision" is, in fact, our cr*p skating - what looks great in our heads doesn't always look just so great on the video! Buy the video, study your performance, and learn from it.

And whatever else you do - stop whinging. People dislike whingers.

[dooobedooo]

.... Have I made it out? Not yet. Have I improved my results over the years? Yes, and I have met some GREAT judges who have given me tips on how to do so......

This is a very good point. Judges are mostly people who love the sport and want to stay in contact with it. Many of them are quite kindly, and will respond to a skater's or parent's request for an honest assessment of a program. Suggest you ask one or two of your local judges to watch your skater's program, and give you an honest assessment of how they would score it, where it fell down, and how you can improve it.

Judges do this as a matter of routine, to help out national level skaters.

[blades]

8-)

the best comment was about taping a program and watching it for what was wrong...

the judging can be affected many ways...not all of them acceptable...but...keep in mind that the people judging are giving their time and a great deal of effort to be there...and that most of them are trying to do their best...

it's too bad that you couldn't speak to the judges...often times they will speak to a competitor or their coach and give input to what they think was wrong...

it's hard not to be disuaded...but don't be...just keep at it...if she's skating as well as you say, she will do well in the long run...skate for the love of the sport and the officials will finally catch up with you...

[Schmeck]

Also, in pre-pre, there is pre-pre A (no axel allowed) and pre-pre B. Which group was your daughter in? If she was in pre-pre A by mistake, the two axels would be ignored/penalized.

[sk8ergirl]

Also as a competitive skater, I agree 100% with fadedstardust. What never ceases to amaze me is the parents of some of the skaters in pre-juvenile, juvenile classifiations who, coincidentally, think their daughter should have medalled because she had the best/most axels, spins, combinations, you name it. Most of these parents, with all due respect, couldn't tell a clean jump from one that is a quarter to half cheated, and yet they immediately jump to the conclusion that the judges are biased, missed the event, are incompetent, you name it. And of course, it shouldn't be surprising the skaters coach feels the same way, its hardly like they are objective.

People should not be so quick to criticize judges. They receive only their expenses, and give generously of their time sitting in cold arenas for long stretches at end. Should it be surprising, in the few minutes that they may have between events, that they don't want to talk to mother of skater number one, or two, lined up to express their displeasure with the results.

As faded, and a few others have said, judging panels more often than not get it right. These people are trained evaluators. Yes in a sport as subjective as skating there will always be some individual biases, however over several competitions, if your daughter is as good as you believe, she will score well...if she doesn't score well, don't discount the fact that her jumps may be cheated, or she is being penalized for not having a balanced program..get out the video, and get a second or third opinion.

Heres to those many unsung judges....they are hardly doing these local competitions for anything other than the joy of volunteerism. And shame to those who criticize any of the judges, keep in mind when you point your finger at someone else, three fingers are always pointing back at you.

[yuffie]

I guess I have too much time on my hands, because I looked at this particular competitions application on line when this thread first started. There was no Pre-prelim. A and B with axel restrictions, so we are referred to the balanced program designated in the rulebook which allows axels at this level, and they may be repeated (not necessarily in combination like higher levels). Just thought I'd clarify that point, because a deduction was in question.

The judge who did say something about this flight seems to have indicated that the overall program may have not been up to parr. and some comment was made about falls not necessarily being the determining factor in placement. This is a common misconception in skating with parents at the lower levels.....that a fall should take a skater out of placement contention.
I've seen some horrendous slides into the boards from skaters who did place well overall, because it's about what you did do, not always about what you missed.

I believe judges pay particular attention to warm ups, and are aware of what some skaters are capable of, and if they skate up to their potential or not. Sometimes skaters are given the benefit of the doubt if their warm up shows solid elements, but they miss a few in the program. On the other hand, the judges can be surprised by a skater that had a crappy warm up and rises to the occasion and has a great skate. It's also true that a skater that has been seen before and is familiar may have an edge, as the judges can see the progress over time. This is "paying your dues" so to speak.

It's hard to say at this level what is going on here. A parent is biased when looking at their child.....I don't think you can be objective until later in the game. A parent may not really know anything about the quality of skating. Speed, flow, spin position and revs., solid jumps on take off and landing meeting the requirements of a balanced program, deductions that might apply. Lots to learn.

I have been disappointed too, then gone home and watched the video of the flight and changed my mind. In general after 7 or so years of my daughter competing, I have been satisfied by placement, and if I wasn't it was by only a placement or two at most. Out of 5 judges, generally the majority get it right. Sure sometimes you wonder if there is some bias because of your club, or who the coach is standing by the boards during the program.....But at the pre-pre level? I don't know if these are factors.

As nasty as some of the comments have been here, there is a bit a truth to all of them.

Some of you with stars in your eyes are going to be disappointed. It's precious few that make it, even after invitations to international events and even a few national titles. Skaters at non-qualifying deserve respect for the time and effort they devote to their sport too.

Anyway, I wish I could pass on all the knowledge I have learned over the years, but it's probably best to learn it on your own by experience. Good luck to all of you!

Yuffie's Skatemom

[Skatewind]

My first thought when reading the initial post is that if the skater placement is 11/13 & that placement is consistent with all judges, then there are critical problems with the technique & it may not be a true axel. My second thought was how come the coach doesn't know there are no judge's comment sheets available for the skater & coach? It's a non-qualifying competition, not a test session. There is not enough information given to make a final determination, but I would certainly question whether or not a skater with this placement was "robbed" in any way, & look at the skating skills instead. When there are vast differences in the placements (say a 2 & a 10, etc), then that's something that requires more scrutiny & research.

Another observation is that for low level competitions, it seems to me a lot of parents & skaters here are giving much more credit to judges giving higher placements to "name" skaters than ever happens. When there are 3 or 4 groups each of pre-prelim, prelim & pre-juv at a competition, there are usually way too many skaters for any of them to develop a "name" with a large pool of judges from different clubs and locations. The names might be referenced to possibly check the percentages of a judge's placements after an event, but not to politic for better placements for what have been described here as the "name" skaters.

[yuffie]

I agree with completely with you Skatewind. I didn't mean to give that impression of recognition being much of a factor at this level. It's a consideration much later down the line. Last competition I watched was regionals.....my mind was sort of focused on what I saw there.

[_back_layback_]

If she came 11th of out 13, and the marks were consistent from all the judges, the judges had their reasons. As other people have said, the jumps may have been landed, but their quality was not as good as others had.

[skaterboyvancan]

Sorry to hear about your daughters bad luck. But as a retired competitive athlete at the national level, I know all too well about placing poorly even after having a good skate.
You will never get a straight answer from a judge should you question them.
I recently just had a student of mine compete at sectionals. 3 judges had her placed 6/7/8 the other 2 had her in 14/16.
You never know what's going on up on that panel.
But you, your daughter, and her coach need to put this disappoitment behind her and move on.

[Mel On Ice]

blades, again, the voice of reason.

[dbny]

You will never get a straight answer from a judge should you question them.

Well, that's just ridiculous. More likely, you (not necessarily "you" personally) won't listen to the answer you are given, which was the case at a small in-house comp I judged. All three of us were asked the same question by a coach, and we all answered the same. As I was walking to my car later, the same coach came up to me and asked "Really, why?" "Really"???? We told him "really", but he did not want to hear it.

[fadedstardust]

Judges don't owe you an explanation of how they do their work. They just don't. If the results are REALLY shady and you suspect some sort of cheating, report it, and then the judges can answer to their association. This is only if you have a true and honest reason to think something very unethical has happened and 9 times out of 10, it hasn't. But a judge doesn't owe you anything, they come, they do their job, and then it's their CHOICE if they want to spend extra time to explain the results to you should they be asked. They are volunteers, not high-paid employees designated to cater to all your questions and needs until you're happy.

I suspect a lot less controversy once COP is completely applied: you'll have the math right in front of you if you have any questions- USFS said they would not adopt anonymous judging, so our U.S. events should soon go smoother with judge-accountable COP in place. So let's all just sit tight and wait for that.

[blue111moon]

There are some judges who don't answer questions ever from anyone; as stated, they don't have to, and these people, while good judges, aren't always good communicators. But the majority of the judges I know are only to happy to discuss their opinions of a skater's program with a skater and their coach, providing they have the time, can find their notes and aren't attacked or abused in the process. Some judges even seek out skaters to offer their opinions and advice. Most judges want to see skaters improve and are willing to tell you what they would like to see you do to improve.

A lot of times it depends on how and when you ask them. If you wait too long, they may have forgotten the group and thrown out their notes. If you or a coach or a parent corner them in the lobby demanding to know why on earth they put Snotty Suzy ahead of your Little Darling, well, no, thee judge might not be so willing to talk to you.

The proper procedure at least in my rink, is for the coach and skater to go to one of the competition officials to politely request to speak to the event refereee about the results of Group SuchandSuch. The official will get the referee. The referee will speak to the coach to find out which skater is in question and then get the judges who are willing to address the concerns. The judges aren't required to come out and they may give conflicting opinions. But usually they will only address that one skater's performance. They won't comment on other skaters except in general terms.

So the answers might not be as specific as you want.

[suiyan]

In the lower levels it can be hard to place skaters as their skill level can be so different for different skills. Some skaters have great jumps but their other skating skills eg spins or footwork may be extremely poor, others look great moving around the ice, have good spins and are very artistic but their jumps may not be as good. Different judges like different things and the results can be quite variable for the same group of skaters. Judging a large group of skaters with an extremely divergent skating skills level can be hard and this is usually the reason for different results rather than personal bias. I would not be upset about the results of one competition. Use a competition disappointment to work out what needs to be improved. There is always a reason for a poor result and in my experience it is invariably due to weaknesses in an area of the skaters performance.

[Lenny2]

My advice: Get over it. Some day, your daughter will be on the receiving end of judging that others think wasn't fair where your daughter has ended up on top. My daughter has skated for seven years now, and is a competitive intermediate level skater, working on double axels and triples. She has been in competitions where she landed every jump but came in in last place. She has also been in competitions where she fell on almost every jump, but she won. We no longer question any results--we try to find satisfaction in her level of effort and performance. If she also happens to end up at the top of the group, that's just icing on the cake. As she has progressed in her skating, we have become much more knowledgeable about underrotated jumps, number of rotations in spins, speed of spins, speed and flow across the ice, and many other things that go into the scoring of programs. It's not always easy to assess these things for a pre-preliminary level parent. The writer who mentioned watching the jumps in slow-motion is absolutely correct--it's a real eye opener. When you think your skater has clean double jumps, watch those jumps in slow motion and chances are you'll see that foot hitting the ice after only one and half rotations and then whipping around on the ice the rest of the way. It takes a long time to get clean double jumps, and I'll bet the axel of the skater who is the original subject of this topic isn't clean either. Tape it and watch it in slow motion. If she is not landing backward, the jump isn't fully rotated and the judges aren't counting it. If they have counted it in other competitions, you just got lucky.

[doubletoe]

If your daughter keeps using both the good and bad placements to fuel her desire to improve, then it will all even out in the long run and she will end up on top. The point is to use every experience--good and bad--to fuel that desire.

Also, she's lucky that in the next few years, judging for USFSA competitions will be taken over by the Code of Points system, which requires judges to fill out a sheet in which they judge each element and program component. Looking at the sheets will tell you specifically what the judges found fault with.

[3ggi3]

wow this is intense
um let's just say that judges do funny things some times
but not all judges are criminals
and most judges have certain tastes
and thank God that the new judging system revises the techincal side of the performance
as far as presentation goes, the judges can hold up skaters if they want to in CoP, but let's just hope they don't!

arguing on a forum is not the solution, in fact, I really don't know what is.

[elbeep]

Wow. Some of you all are way too hard on judges.


As a skater myself with a kid who skated competitvely through novice, this my advice, for what it's worth.


Skating is a subjective sport. Not everyone agrees on what constitues a winning performance, let alone the successful completion of each element in one. Some judges don't have a clue, although most do. Some coaches don't have a clue, although many do. Some parents don't have a clue. Some do. Judging is rarely perfect, however all kids I've ever met need support and if their parents get upset and convince them that things are rigged against them, there's not going to be any hope or joy for them in competitive skating, in my opinion.


People are imperfect creatures. Figure skating is a difficult discipline. Jumps make it nearly impossible. Most kids who start skating won't land an axel. Most who land an axel won't ever land a double axel. A tiny, minute, almost invisible fraction of those who start will ever land a single tripple. Especially among girls, even in lower-level competitve figure skating, the competition is large and at times a real snake pit. If a skater and/ or their support system can't handle all that and put it in perspective, if there isn't relatively great love, enthusiasm for the sport, competetive skating is probably going to make them miserable, if not downright insane, and they should probably move onto something that involves a finish line and a stopwatch.


Having extensive involvement with a wide variety of judges over many years, I see them as wonderful group, generally- tireless and selfless volunteers, lovers and supporters of the sport, unusually devoted to skating as a discipline, serving skaters at all levels. Most judges have other things to do apart from skating- job's families, but they'll show up at the rink on a Saturday morning at 6:00 to judge a test or critique a skater on a few days notice or spend their entire vacation sitting in a cold rink for expenses and free food from hospitality. Again, they're not perfect. No one is, but mostly, they trie really hart. They're always learning, but mostly they are great and committed volunteers who give much of themselves to the sport.



The vast majority of judges are not only willing to critique skaters but love to do it. The time for this though, is not generally in the middle of a competition when judges are usually right on to another event, or where they might not have separate impressions of each of the 100, or more, skaters they've seen at the competition so far. I have been at competitions where a judges critique of an actual performace was offered as part of the sign up. In those cases, one judge from each pannel, probably the referee, did all the critiques but they knew in advance, so they were prepared and probably took more extensive notes than they normally would at competition. Competition judges don't usually take copious notes (as opposed to testing judges.) They don't have time. Generally, they have some kind of system for keeping track of jumps, spins, other tricks etc, and for evaluating general skaing and presentation, and for ordering the performances, but the sheets they turn into accounting so that scores can be tabulated basically just have numbers on them.


Coaches and clubs test chairperson can contact judges and set up set up such critiques prior to competition or testing, or at other times. Sometimes before a competition, our club would buy ice and stage an exhibition so that the skaters could skate their programs under competition conditions. If you did something like that, you might be able to set up a judge's critique as well at the same time. Most judges I've known are glad to look at skaters and tell them what they think. It's ususally a good idea to have more than one do this though because they don't always agree. My child's coach always had a judge look at her before testing. She also talked to judges about how she competed. It's probaly easier to get that type of info from a judge if the coach knows the judge and when the skater reaches higher levels where the judge is more likely to have seen the skater enough to remember who they are. Maybe, your club could arrange for a judge (either actually on the pannel or not) to critique the actual performances for the skaters at the competition.


Again though, it's so important to keep in mind that this is a subjective, difficult sport with lots of competitors if you are a little girl, a big girl or a young woman. The competition can get fierce. In a regional competition with 120 intermediate skaters, four will get final round metals. If one wants to skate, winning can't be the only option. It's imperative to find other goals-doing something one loves, skating one's best, improving, the long haul-making it all the way to Senior or Junior or some other level goal, passing specific tests, supporting and having fun with friends at competition, even becomming a skating volunteer.


The best way to understand what's REALLY going on is to get involved. Although skating experience is preferred for new judges, it may not be absolutely necessary, particularly at lower judging levels. Judging schools are available. Volunteers might needed in the Accounting room where judges marks are collected and tabulated. There are fast tracks into judging for higher level competitve skaters. Clubs needs help with tests where volunteers can meet and interact with judges. Getting to know judges as people through volunteering really gave me great perspective into what's going on with them behind the scenes and I'd reccommend it highly to others. Convincing a kid that everyone's against them isn't going to insure their longevity in this sport. Again, from someone who's been there and done that, take all this for what it's worth and good luck.

[skatemum]

WOW what a discussion. I am new to this forum and am surprised at some of the vitriol against judges. 8O
My child has being doing low level competitions in Australia for a little over a year now, and some of the results have left me scratching my head. OTOH I have no idea what is technically correct, I just know what I like to see, so have no criticisms of the judges.
I was at one comp where one of the regular judges was just a spectator, the first time for her all year, and she talked about some of the flack she has put up with over the years. Most judges will talk to you and explain things if you talk to them civilly. At another comp, a friends' child was upset with the result so when I was collecting the result sheet I asked for feedback or advice. This was given freely. 8-)
For my child and I, we aren't worried about results, its about gaining experience in competing. When my child is (if it is still their dream) competing at a high level that is of national or international standing then we will worry about that.

PS Is this new code of points system applying in Australia? :)

[sk8family]

Wow. Some of you all are way too hard on judges.


As a skater myself with a kid who skated competitvely through novice, this my advice, for what it's worth.


Skating is a subjective sport. Not everyone agrees on what constitues a winning performance, let alone the successful completion of each element in one. Some judges don't have a clue, although most do. Some coaches don't have a clue, although many do. Some parents don't have a clue. Some do. Judging is rarely perfect, however all kids I've ever met need support and if their parents get upset and convince them that things are rigged against them, there's not going to be any hope or joy for them in competitive skating, in my opinion.


People are imperfect creatures. Figure skating is a difficult discipline. Jumps make it nearly impossible. Most kids who start skating won't land an axel. Most who land an axel won't ever land a double axel. A tiny, minute, almost invisible fraction of those who start will ever land a single tripple. Especially among girls, even in lower-level competitve figure skating, the competition is large and at times a real snake pit. If a skater and/ or their support system can't handle all that and put it in perspective, if there isn't relatively great love, enthusiasm for the sport, competetive skating is probably going to make them miserable, if not downright insane, and they should probably move onto something that involves a finish line and a stopwatch.


Having extensive involvement with a wide variety of judges over many years, I see them as wonderful group, generally- tireless and selfless volunteers, lovers and supporters of the sport, unusually devoted to skating as a discipline, serving skaters at all levels. Most judges have other things to do apart from skating- job's families, but they'll show up at the rink on a Saturday morning at 6:00 to judge a test or critique a skater on a few days notice or spend their entire vacation sitting in a cold rink for expenses and free food from hospitality. Again, they're not perfect. No one is, but mostly, they trie really hart. They're always learning, but mostly they are great and committed volunteers who give much of themselves to the sport.



The vast majority of judges are not only willing to critique skaters but love to do it. The time for this though, is not generally in the middle of a competition when judges are usually right on to another event, or where they might not have separate impressions of each of the 100, or more, skaters they've seen at the competition so far. I have been at competitions where a judges critique of an actual performace was offered as part of the sign up. In those cases, one judge from each pannel, probably the referee, did all the critiques but they knew in advance, so they were prepared and probably took more extensive notes than they normally would at competition. Competition judges don't usually take copious notes (as opposed to testing judges.) They don't have time. Generally, they have some kind of system for keeping track of jumps, spins, other tricks etc, and for evaluating general skaing and presentation, and for ordering the performances, but the sheets they turn into accounting so that scores can be tabulated basically just have numbers on them.


Coaches and clubs test chairperson can contact judges and set up set up such critiques prior to competition or testing, or at other times. Sometimes before a competition, our club would buy ice and stage an exhibition so that the skaters could skate their programs under competition conditions. If you did something like that, you might be able to set up a judge's critique as well at the same time. Most judges I've known are glad to look at skaters and tell them what they think. It's ususally a good idea to have more than one do this though because they don't always agree. My child's coach always had a judge look at her before testing. She also talked to judges about how she competed. It's probaly easier to get that type of info from a judge if the coach knows the judge and when the skater reaches higher levels where the judge is more likely to have seen the skater enough to remember who they are. Maybe, your club could arrange for a judge (either actually on the pannel or not) to critique the actual performances for the skaters at the competition.


Again though, it's so important to keep in mind that this is a subjective, difficult sport with lots of competitors if you are a little girl, a big girl or a young woman. The competition can get fierce. In a regional competition with 120 intermediate skaters, four will get final round metals. If one wants to skate, winning can't be the only option. It's imperative to find other goals-doing something one loves, skating one's best, improving, the long haul-making it all the way to Senior or Junior or some other level goal, passing specific tests, supporting and having fun with friends at competition, even becomming a skating volunteer.


The best way to understand what's REALLY going on is to get involved. Although skating experience is preferred for new judges, it may not be absolutely necessary, particularly at lower judging levels. Judging schools are available. Volunteers might needed in the Accounting room where judges marks are collected and tabulated. There are fast tracks into judging for higher level competitve skaters. Clubs needs help with tests where volunteers can meet and interact with judges. Getting to know judges as people through volunteering really gave me great perspective into what's going on with them behind the scenes and I'd reccommend it highly to others. Convincing a kid that everyone's against them isn't going to insure their longevity in this sport. Again, from someone who's been there and done that, take all this for what it's worth and good luck.


I have to admit that you put it all in perspective.

If you get involved in your local skating club and start helping out at competitions, you can meet these individuals who volunteer their time to judge. They get up at early hours on Sats. & Suns. to do test sessions for hours and then give up work time, usually vacation time, to attend competitions and judge. Most do it for the love of the sport and enjoy seeing the skaters. (Granted, there are bad apples, but there are in any field, occupation, family, etc.) At lower level,(Basic skills), small competitions, many of the judges do not have their appointments but are trialing or are adult skaters, etc. (at least in my area.) However, once you hit prelim, etc. they tend to use qualified judges. Also, remember that these individuals are human, just as the skaters are, and they do make mistakes or miss a landing, etc.

I am surprised that the judges would not talk to the parent. I know that at a recent judges school held in CA the judges were told to really try to be accessable as much as possible. (Granted, the schedules and bathroom breaks can sometimes determine how much time they have.)

In my own family, we are all involved so we understand the judges a bit more- it doesn't mean we always agree with their placements. However, my skaters look at their own performance to see how they skate against themselves... did they try their hardest, improve on something they were working on, attain a personal goal. My eldest daughter once had a horrible personal skate and still ended up second. She realized that she had not succeeded just because the rest of the group had a bad day too. ANother time she skated perfectly and did not place because everyone else was "on" also. Learning from one's own performance is the most important thing at a competition.