Misguided adults?

[gregyoshi]

I'm just curious what you all think... I know some adults who are really marginal skaters as far as having good, strong basic skating skills ....so what is the value of being able to say you can do a camel or sit spin if there are only 2 revolutions at best and you can't even do back crossovers in both directions, don't have a strong or centered scratch spin or are deathly afraid of having any speed or of falling? Do you know what I mean? I know this sounds really uppity but I'm not trying to be that way. I just don't understand, for example, what good it does a skater to say they can do a waltz-loop combo if they don't have a decent waltz jump with a solid landing position to begin with. What good is it to have a sporty little list of things you can say you "do" in freestyle? Does anyone else feel something is missing in that picture? Are coaches misguiding students? Is it the adult skater wo is too eager to "have" these skills and skim too fast over the foundation? I just don't understand and as a future coach (wannabe) I just want to learn what motivates people this direction. Thoughts? Greg

[jenlyon60]

I don't do freestyle, so can't comment on that.

In my case, as a dancer, basic skills are important. Having said that, because I test on the USFS Adult dance test track, I've been able to get away, up to now, with relying on my male coach to provide some of the power and flow.

Early this summer I was the recipient of a comment from a judge I know that hit home about my skating basics considering the level dance I had just finished competing. Although I was rather upset at the time about the comment, I thought about it, and spent all summer skating mostly solo on my dances. And it has paid off for the most part. My coach has commented that he can tell, when I skate with him, the improvement in my basics, flow and control across the ice. My new goal is to be able to skate the dances (I'm working on USFS Silver dances and higher) as close to standard track quality as possible, even if I ultimately test Adult track.

Except for those blamed intro-3's in dances. And that's a mental problem that has taken up residence in my feet. And being a bad habit, is turning out to be 10x harder to correct...

[Madame Saccoche]

And that's a mental problem that has taken up residence in my feet. :lol: :lol: :bow:

I've got to try that one on my coach this week!

....and yes I know the type of adult skaters you are referring to....they are legends in their own mind!

Oh well, live and let live, as long as they stay out of people's way when they are doing their imaginary elements, hey at least they're not couch potatoes!

[SDFanatic]

I don't think such things apply to everyone and it could be related to different teaching styles as well as what the skater wants to cover for themselves. Course it could be an ego trip too, who knows?

Being an adult is nothing like being a kid, a coach can easily tell the kids that this is what they need to have before they can do something else. Adults are a bit smarter then that and tend to make their own path of the direction they want.

I myself do not have a set path of where I want to go, hopefully whenI get a coach again we can go over what I need to work on and what I should proceed with.

I myself have very good edges and it has been rare for me to come across a kid who can hold an edge, or a change of edge move, for the entire length of the rink, or more, to the point of not moving anymore.

My waltz jump is not great, practicing it without a coach has resulted in some bad habits which need correcting, but I can hold my landing position until I'm stopped and have to put my other foot down if I wish not to fall.

I have a long list of things I can "somewhat" do, I'm proud that I can do them even though they are not great, but I don't use them for bragging rights as skating is annoying enough as it is.

Perhaps what motivates some people is just doing it, and adults are a funny lot when it comes to such things, but most of the ones I have come across, do it more for the enjoyment that they are doing it even though it may not be perfect, yet.

Steven

[skaternum]

So why pick on just adults who do this? Yes, we all know a couple of adults who do this, but we also know kids who do this. Like the kid who told me that the loop/backspin-looking-thingy she did was a double loop. Or the kid who "has" a double lutz that's as cheated and under-rotated as they get. :roll: It's not just adults.

Personally, I think you should cut them all some slack. Sometimes these people just don't know what they look like skating. We all know the feeling of watching yourself on tape and saying, "I look like THAT?!" Maybe the people who do this honestly don't know that their waltz jump is crappy. And don't forget that there are various levels of "having" a skill. You can "have" an element when it's recognizable to somebody else. Then as you become a better skater, you polish and perfect it. I could "do" crossovers 8 years ago. I "do" them better now.

But the question is, what's bugging you about it? Let them live their fantasies about what their skating is like, and don't let it get under your skin.

[nja]

Since I do both freestyle and dance, I have seen many situations where adult skaters neglect the basic skills in their skating in order to spend time on more advanced elements. I have seen adults who can't do loop jumps (let alone a waltz jump-loop combo) trying to do axels. I have seen adults who don't have the slightest idea on how to do decent crossovers and progressives toe push their way through presilver and higher level dances.

I'm a silver-with-axel freestyler who is working towards her gold test and a pre-gold level dancer. The basic skills are the building blocks towards the more advanced elements. I hear the common complaint that things like MIF and basic stroking are too time consuming and adults don't want to spend the time. I can't imagine trying to work on some of this stuff without having mastered the basics!

I would much rather see a skater (adult or otherwise) put out solid basic skating with maybe fewer elements than a skater who puts out a bunch of elements that are questionable at best. Unfortunately, some of my past experience has shown that poor skating is often rewarded over better skating because the "attempt" is given full or at least partial credit. This is the major reason why I am no longer competing in freestyle. If there is a place that really needs COP, it is adult skating!

[flo]

The "value" is in the eye (blade?) of the skater (adult or kid). There are lots of skaters with tricks or elements beyond their ability or without coresponding level edges. Perhaps being able to say I have a "XXX" keeps them interested, and working on skating, or perhaps it's out of amazement!
Whatever it is - it's their choice, and if they are enjoying the process, then it's there's to enjoy.

[dbny]

Every new skill begins at a non-passing level and has to be worked up to standards. Because a skater cannot do a beautiful, flowing, high waltz jump or loop does not mean that they cannot do the element at all. When skaters say they "have" and element, it may mean no more than that they are working on it and have managed to execute it to some degree at least once. I take what anyone says with a grain of salt until I have seen it myself. I also do not consider myself to be in competition with anyone when talking about skills.

This reminds me of my first encounter with a pathologic liar. There used to be a squash club across the street from my office when I worked in lower Manhattan, and a lot of us would go over and play for half an hour at lunch time. I hadn't played for a year or so, but a new woman on my project said she was an expert (also expert skier) and would love to play. She did not have an athletic build, to be kind about it. I was not eager to play, but she really pushed, so we finally went over the club with some co-workers who were interested in watching. This woman could not hit the ball!!! The "big" game was over in about ten minutes. I was amazed, as she showed no embarrassment at all. She continued to act as if she were the greatest squash player ever. I think her boss took a closer look at her work after that :)

[twokidsskatemom]

we seem to have alot of kids here who dont do lts and then start skating, want to skip the basics and just do the tricks.They dont seem to get the whole yes you can do a jump but your stroking is terrible thing.
Im so glad my kids started in lts and have strong basic skills.My dd was taught from day one that to have a good sit spin, first you have a nice dip, then a nice shoot the duck.That way it makes sense.One thing adds to another.
it seems like the 9 and 10 years here just dont see it that way, unless they started early.
me, i just want to stroke around the rink, not do any jumps lol

[gregyoshi]

So why pick on just adults who do this?
But the question is, what's bugging you about it? Let them live their fantasies about what their skating is like, and don't let it get under your skin.


Skaternum, I wasn't trying to "pick on" adults. I just referred to them because I'm an adult skater and skate with several of them and know there are many on this message board. I understand what you're talking about-there are plenty of kids who have the same problems but I just figured I'd ask other adult skaters here what they thought about it.

What's bugging me about them? Well, as I said in my original post-I want to coach someday. I'm just trying to learn what makes people and coaches tick. I'm trying to find out what the general feeling is from other adult skaters. I don't know if it bugs me or if it worries me, but I do know several skaters like this who to me, appear to be working on elements that are inappropriate for their overall skating level. I don't understand why that is! I would not find it rewarding to say I can "do" a camel-sitspin combo when I'm still trying to master a sitspin that has multiple revs and is well centered and doesn't die at the end from lack of speed. Maybe I'm a perfectionist but I'm trying to figure out why it seems adults jump ahead when it seems premature. I'm not attacking anyone or picking on anyone from my point of view-just trying to understand. I appreciate the comments so far. Thanks!

[Mel On Ice]

so what is the value of being able to say you can do a camel or sit spin if there are only 2 revolutions at best and you can't even do back crossovers in both directions, don't have a strong or centered scratch spin

the value of saying you have these elements, however poor they may be, is that in competition, if the judge can mark "lutz - two footed" or "camel - 2 revs" a skater gets credit for these crap elements and are placed higher than those who skate clean with simpler jumps and spins.

My coach refuses to put an element in my program unless I can do it well, with proper edge takeoff, proper positions, etc. Some people are not like that, and will go through the motions of skating the element, so they would get credit for the attempt, even if the execution isn't there.

As a competitor, it stinks. But as an adult skater, I understand. We are a goal-minded society, and to check an element off the list as a skating accomplishment is a big deal. I know it is to me. And like dbny says, there's non-passing standard on the element and passing standard.

[Mrs Redboots]

What's bugging me about them? Well, as I said in my original post-I want to coach someday. I'm just trying to learn what makes people and coaches tick. I'm trying to find out what the general feeling is from other adult skaters. I don't know if it bugs me or if it worries me, but I do know several skaters like this who to me, appear to be working on elements that are inappropriate for their overall skating level. I don't understand why that is! I would not find it rewarding to say I can "do" a camel-sitspin combo when I'm still trying to master a sitspin that has multiple revs and is well centered and doesn't die at the end from lack of speed. Maybe I'm a perfectionist but I'm trying to figure out why it seems adults jump ahead when it seems premature. I'm not attacking anyone or picking on anyone from my point of view-just trying to understand. I appreciate the comments so far. Thanks!Thing is, you'll get all sorts and conditions of adults. I know some who have no idea of competing or testing, but just employ a coach to haul them round the ice in what they fondly imagine is a Blues or a Tango! Others would like to do those dances to standard, and spend a lot of time and money getting them ready to test. Still others fall somewhere in between - I do myself, for that matter. I want to compete at the level for which I am able (which is basically BASIC!), but I also want to be able to stumble and kick my way through a Blues or Tango well enough to "dance" it at a social dancing session.

I have found that coaches will take adult skaters at their own valuation. Those who are taking it seriously, hoping to test, wanting to compete, will be taught as rigorously as any child. On the other hand, those who just want to be able to "do tricks" get taught the tricks.

And in many ways it's the kids who do the tricks - their parents want Jemima to be able to do a double jump because Dorothy can do one, never mind that Dorothy is ready and Jemima isn't! It's only when their skater gets told that "she won't pass the next test unless and until she actually learns to skate!" that they sit up and take notice.

[Debbie S]

Well, I certainly think skaters of any age should learn the basics (edges, crossovers, etc.) before they start jumping and spinning - that's why the USFSA and ISI created structures for basic skills and freestyle lessons.

However, as skaternum and dbny pointed out, skating is a process of continuous improvement. You have to start out doing a skill poorly before it becomes mastered. As my coach said when we were working on my landing position (to stop my hunching over), there's (USFSA) Basic 7 landing position and Michelle Kwan's landing position - and everything in between. No one is going to do an element perfectly the first time. But that doesn't mean people shouldn't be allowed to take pride in improvement, even if it's not where the element should be.

For example, I take pride in currently being able to get 2 revs on my backspin and exit on my spinning foot - up until a few weeks ago, I could barely hold one, and it was a struggle to not put my free foot down. Obviously, I haven't mastered the skill, and it's not good enough to put in a program or take the Bronze FS test (not that I'm ready to take it, I'm not even ready to test MIF), but I'm still pleased that I'm headed in the right direction. My loop jump may be a bit cheated, but I can still be pleased that I'm actually landing it on 1 foot.

[gregyoshi]

Debbie S, don't you think it makes at least a little sense to progress from basic skills TO higher level skills, rather than skip over mastery of simple elements and try to do certain things badly? How can someone justify doing any jump poorly or incompletely when that same person is not even comfortable falling? Why not master basic skills and simple jumps and spins, and then graduate to the more difficult skills, such as combo jumps and spins?

[flo]

gregyoshi,
Why does the skater have to justify anything? There is no one gloden path to skating success and progress. In thruth the "basics" are much harder to "master" than many of the more advanced tricks. It would be pretty dull to have to "master the basics" to some obscure level before attempting new elements - we would have far fewer skaters. Also with the adults many skills are learned at the same time, or out of order. My lutz came far more quickly than my flip. My layback and sit well before my scratch. It did not mean that I was finished working on the elements, only that the others had more progress earlier.

If you really have serious goals about coaching, you may wish to overcome your own preconceptions. When did you start skating? As an adult or child?

[skaternum]

How can someone justify doing any jump poorly or incompletely when that same person is not even comfortable falling?
In short, because not everyone thinks like you. Some skaters really are content to pick & choose skills that they want to learn, and some coaches will let them do it, as long as it keeps them interested in skating.

[KatieC]

Gregyoshi, maybe I can provide a bit of insight on adults trying to do "tricks" without having nailed the basics. I took up skating 6 1/2 years ago, have taken lessons for 3 of those years, but not currently. I've come to some conclusions about my skating
1. I'm not interested in competing.
2. I'm totally scared of backspins, they make me nausous, so I just don't even try them anymore.
3. I prefer to spin clockwise, but can't make my body do a proper crossover entrance into clockwise spins, so my entrance is a two foot one, but I'll live with it cuz it works for me. I can do the crossover entrance to a CCW spin, but don't like to spin that way as well as CW.
4. I've tried to do a "shoot the duck". Everyone says at least when you fall you haven't got far to go - but when I fell, it jarred my spine all the way up and took a trip to the chiropractor to fix. So guess what - I don't practise shoot the ducks, but my sit spin is recognizable as a sit spin, and I can get 6 revolutions on occassion, 4 revs the rest of the time. I can most times even put a headless scratch spin on the end of it :)

I'm going on a bit here, but I'm trying to say that I'm proud of what I can do, I will never attain greatness, but if I don't want to spend time practising the basics, that's my choice, and doing things the way I do gives me a taste of what "real" figure skaters do, without wrecking my body. I give compliments to other skaters, and when they see me do something well, they compliment me, and that gives me satisfaction. I think what I've learned to do is amazing to me - and I'm happy. The coaches I've worked with have understood this about me, and teach me things I can do.

I hope this helps you if you ever find yourself teaching adults. There are lots that will want the basics, and to learn from the bottom up, perfectly, and there are the rest of us that are just pleased as punch to do what we can.

[NoVa Sk8r]

Skaternum is right, greg. If you want to coach, try being more open minded. Certainly, patience is required when it comes to adult skaters!

A goal for some adults might be to just do decent crossovers or a recognizable waltz jump.

[gregyoshi]

I am open minded! You've got me all wrong :) But I am trying to find opinions here and you've helped me see many angles.

For me on a personal level, I think it is better to have a strong foundation before moving onward, especially when it seems higher level skills carry a higher risk for injury. I think a skater has a better chance to be successful and avoid injuries when they have a strong foundation to support them. That has been my experience and my coach stresses this. Sorry to offend anyone with my opinions-just sharing. I have had many years of ballet training and that was always the methodology so I guess it has permeated my brain too much. Thanks.

[skaternum]

For me on a personal level, I think it is better to have a strong foundation before moving onward, especially when it seems higher level skills carry a higher risk for injury. I think a skater has a better chance to be successful and avoid injuries when they have a strong foundation to support them.
I agree completely, as do many. But with adult students especially, you have to understand that they won't always agree with your philosophy. And each one may have a different reason. If you're going to coach adults, you'll have to treat each one as an individual. If you don't want to teach a skater something you don't think they're ready for, you need to work that out up front with the student. If the student doesn't like it, he or she will happily seek out a coach who'll accomodate their preferences, and you can teach only students who are interested in your methodology.

I have had many years of ballet training and that was always the methodology so I guess it has permeated my brain too much.
I also have had years of ballet training. I'm not sure it's the duration of living with that methodology. I think it's more a matter of when you started living with it. Starting a sport or activity is just plain different when you're grown up, paying for your own lessons, and juggling the demands of work & family. You see things differently, and don't necessarily take on the "values" of that culture like you do when you're a kid.

[buttlefan]

My advice to aspiring coaches:
- don't feed the skater's ego by telling them that their () element is wonderful when it isn't. Encourage them, say they've improved, but for gosh sakes, don't exaggerate it. I've heard coaches go on and on about how wonderful a certain skater's lutz is, and then when I see it...flutz.
- don't put a skater up for a test when you know they're not ready for it to "give them the experience of testing it." Especially for a young child...what good does it do to have them experience a sure failure? It just wastes time and money for everyone.

In response to the comment that judges give more credit for poorly executed difficult elements than cleanly executed easier ones, I must emphasize that there are plenty of judges out there who do exactly the opposite.

Cheers to all of you, young, old, and in-between, who skate simply because you love to skate.

[skateflo]

Just want to add a few other thoughts. The adult skating world is made up of basically 2 types of skaters - those who learn to skate as an adult, and those who had some skating history in their youth. The difference greatly effects how they come to adult skating lessons.

New adult skaters also go through various phases, known as AOSS. Their passion and excitement pushes them forward. Then some plateaus hit and it is not unusual for a savy coach to introduce other skills above their current foundation. A change of pace can keep a skater interested. There are also times when deviating from foundation work can actually be beneficial when the basics are returned to - and that can boost a skater's confidence.

I hear where you are coming from, but basics can always be improved upon. How you teach and your attitude will attract skaters of like mind - those that have a different agenda will find another coach. The coaching world is filled with a huge variety of talent, teaching methods, and reasons for coaching. Some coaches can't stand the pupil that need minute detail on every element and discusses everything. There are coaches that take adults believing it is guaranteed income and will do whatever the pupil wants. Others enjoy the adult workaholic.....some enjoy the challenge to explain an element that a kid never asks for or needs or could understand.

Over the course of time I have found people who come from the ballet world and the rigidity of their training, do have a hard time adjusting to the more varied skating teaching/practicing methods. Perhaps it would be helpful to you to observe different coaches as they teach adults, but with an open mind. Frank Carroll always says that he welcomes new ways of doing things and has continued to learn from other coaches. Also watch how the adult skater responds to the teaching method.

There are people who fix everything with duct tape - and those who have a whole workshop and enjoy the detail work....and everyone else falls between these 2 types. Good luck and I hope these responses have been helpful to you.

[flippet]

For me on a personal level,
That's just it...it's for you, personally. That's not at all a bad thing, just understand that other folks have their own 'personally' as well.

Quite a bit depends on a skater's goals. If a skater wants to compete, then I'd say yes, you really need to get the basics first. But I know quite a few adult skaters who take lessons just for the fun of it--they have no intention of competing, and they really don't even care what they look like out there...it's just a fun activity on a Tuesday night (or whatever). Both kinds of skaters ought to be accomodated within the system. It's also a personality thing. Some people are serious, solitary, and detail-oriented, and this can lend itself to polishing the basics. Others are social butterflies first and foremost, they skate primarily for social reasons, and therefore hashing out the basics may be at the end of their list.

You sound like you'll be a very strict coach. Again, that's a good thing, because there are adult skaters who want that, and can't stand it when a coach lets them get away with crap. However, there's the other kind of student as well, and it's no use trying to turn them into a detailed skater if they're not interested. As stated previously, they'll find a coach more suited to their style, and students more suited to your style will find you. (If you're not somewhat flexible, however, I wouldn't expect a whole lot of students. The masochists ;) might be few and far between.)

[Hannahclear]

For myself, I am a basics and details person. I like to work on things until I get them. I can do all the basic jumps and spins, but not as well as I would like, so I'm working on these things until they get better. It will be alot of work.

However, I know what it's like to have limited ice time, money and access to coaching time. It's not like we have four hours a day to practice, so I can certainly see why some may go for more of the checklist approach, even if its not the one I prefer myself.

[doubletoe]

There are so many types of adult skaters and each type of skater is attracted to a different type of coach. In my experience, what ends up happening is that the skaters with low self confidence gravitate toward the coaches who exaggerate their achievements for them (like my former coach who would count every 1/2 revolution on my spin so that I would think I just did 5 revolutions!). I just don't want to be there when these skaters get their first feedback from a judge because it will be awfully painful.

Meanwhile, those skaters who demand more of themselves tend to find the coaches who will tell them if their spins and jumps look like crap and tell them how to fix them. So ultimately, if you become a coach, you will just have to accept it when you teach someone who doesn't want to hear anything negative and that person leaves you for another coach. But you may also end up attracting students who see that you have high expectations and are good at teaching adults how to meet those expectations.

[backspin]

I can tell you a bit of my own story----to illustrate what everyone has been saying about different coaches having different approaches, and how adult skaters are....

I started skating as an adult, & am still training w/ my own coach. I skate at least 5 days a week (I'm an ice dancer), am testing the standard track in dance & moves, & I expect my coach to treat me like one of the kids--push me hard & don't let me slide by on anything.

That's my personality.

I have some of my own students, one of whom is another adult skater. She started working with me 3 years ago, stuck on one of her bronze dances. And today......she is still on that bronze dance. All the time she was saying she really wanted to get this dance ready to test, how she was so sick of it---and yet was skating, at best, twice a week (more often once a week). She would take a month off at a time, and often skips lessons. I finally came to realize, that skating just is not one of her priorities in life.

And you know what? That's fine. She should skate when she wants to skate. However, I did need to clarify to her that the dance was simply never going to be ready to test without a much larger commitment. She agreed, & we adjusted her lessons so that skating would be fun for her & not boring, as it had become since pretty much all we did was work on the dance. So we're doing other things now, & I think she's happier. I know I am! I finally realized not everyone approaches their skating the way I do, & that adults will make their own decisions about their priorities. I had to readjust my thinking to be able to keep coaching her--or it would have driven me crazy!

All this rambling to say that when you are a coach, you will either have to adjust sometimes for a (adult) student, or choose not to teach them. To be truthful, I was on the verge of telling her I couldn't coach her anymore, but I decided to give this new tact a try. I guess it remains to be seen if it works for me long term!

I think it's important for a coach to outline to their students what their expectations are, & the student can decide if they can work within that framework. For example, I know one coach who requires his students to skate at least one hour a week outside of lessons, and do at least 2 competitions a year.

This is something I'm still learning about & deciding about as I continue my own coaching.

[manleywoman]

... I expect my coach to treat me like one of the kids--push me hard & don't let me slide by on anything.

That's my personality.
...

I feel the same way, and my coach treats me that way. But I'm still such a slow learner, that it's frustrating both of us!

[dbny]

especially when it seems higher level skills carry a higher risk for injury.

It may well seem that way, but when I was 15 and a roller dancer I cracked my wrist doing shoot the duck (well, OK, it was a shoot the duck war on a public session, but still just a simple shoot the duck), and when I was 54 I broke my wrist doing the extremely simple Pre-Pre BI edge pattern, which I was doing rather well at the time. I still feel a stab of fear on that pattern but not on the Juv B cross strokes, which I do with power, flow, deep edges, and tremendous enjoyment. If I were not allowed to work on moves beyond the level I am currently capable of mastering (as in prelim alt threes), I would have no fun at all.

I coach basic skills, and for kids the keyword is "fun", but I have found that for adults also, there must be an element of fun, or enjoyment, if you will, or there is little to keep them interested.

[the old gurl]

Debbie S, don't you think it makes at least a little sense to progress from basic skills TO higher level skills, rather than skip over mastery of simple elements and try to do certain things badly? How can someone justify doing any jump poorly or incompletely when that same person is not even comfortable falling? Why not master basic skills and simple jumps and spins, and then graduate to the more difficult skills, such as combo jumps and spins?Just how bored do you want adult skaters to be while they take twice (or 3 times) as long to master those basics?

I just started skating a year ago -- passed the Preliminary dance test (Canada -- all 3 dances in one session). I'm still working on figuring out 3-turns and mohawks but I already know the steps to the Swing and Fiesta. Why? Because it gives me something to work on and improve in between the time I put in on the backwards crosscuts, the mohawks on both feet and the 3-turns. If I didn't have those dances, I'd go stir-crazy on my 2 - 3-hour session on Tuesdays, especially since I have one 15-min lesson that day.

I'm NOT doing freeskate -- I'm 45 years old and don't relish attempting to break anything until I'm more confident, but I *have* done 2 pathetic revolutions on a one-foot spin, and a cheated toe-waltz jump and a bunny hop. To hear you talk, I should be spending all my time on my stroking and 3-turns. I can tell you right now, if I did nothing but 'basics' with my students in school, they'd be bored to tears in no time -- same goes for adult skaters...goes for ANY skaters!

Give your students a challenge...something a little beyond them and make them reach for it -- you'll both be better off in the end.

[Chico]

Here's my input as an adult skater. Skating is a journey. Where you start this trip, mindset, may not be where you end it. When I first started skating it was for physical therapy and fun, time to get away from the kids and spend time doing something for me. I needed a coach who I had fun with and made my experience enjoyable. She kept things positive, helped me "overlook" any pain I was having and made everything exciting. When I started wanting to grow as a skater I looked for this in a coach. I wanted to learn things right and be pushed. I most certainly didn't want to be babied. I didn't want the great when it was bad. Hate this. Now, I'm at another place. Thinking about testing and maybe competing. Again my needs have changed. I've also learned more about what I want as a student. I also feel that as an adult that I don't have as long as a child to learn skills and sometimes push the envelope on what I try. In some ways this is bad, but in others it keeps me inspired. My coach is working hard with me to improve on my weaknesses and at the same time lets me inspire myself with the skills I want. No, my wants aren't perfect, but yet again I'm trying and having fun. When you try and are inspired you can do much or at the least improve.

As for the skater who thinks her/his skills are better than they are....let it be. To some extent we all fall into this group. I'm sure I do. =-)

[jazzpants]

Is it the adult skater wo is too eager to "have" these skills and skim too fast over the foundation? I just don't understand and as a future coach (wannabe) I just want to learn what motivates people this direction. Thoughts? GregSomething you should keep in mind... it's the coach's job to make sure those skaters are decent enough skaters. If I were you, I stay out of their business. Let the coaches do their work on their students! Trust me, those adults are working as much as they can, as do the coaches of those students.

Now, if those same students come to you as a coach, then you can work out an arrangement that works for the both of us, since you are now THEIR coach! But be prepared to be patient. There are students like me who are really putting in a lot of work into their skating and despite that, the progress is still glacial. :roll:

[fadedstardust]

I don't really see how it is a "type" of skater...I think it's more those who find a coach willing to teach something that shouldn't be learned yet vs the one who follows safe/proper progression and makes the student wait.

This is what I never understood and still don't get about adult skating, (kids do this too, but it's normal for a child to be impatient and not understand why they must wait, and to get frustrated- an adult should have the maturity to understand the reasons and to be patient, after all if it was your child coming home frustrated that he/she must learn the basics first I am sure you would tell them it is for their own good) for some reason, it seems like some adult skaters feel "entitled" (in quotations because I'm not sure that's the word I want but I can't think of another) to be able to learn whatever they want because they have little time and it costs a lot of money and they should learn whatever they want. I don't get how figure skating became that kind of sport, that people can walk into it thinking that.
You don't show up to a ballet class for the first time and demand to be put right onto pointe because you're strapped for time and you're a grown up and decide what parts of the process interests you most. You don't walk into gymnastics (actually I doubt there are adult gymnastics classes to begin with) and demand to be taught a back-handspring or an arabian because you don't want to bother with round-offs and cartwheels first.
I do not for the life of me understand, and I ask myself this often while reading this section of the board, why figure skating is thought of as different. It's a difficult sport, with clear and pretty much cut-out steps to progression, and I don't know why some adults walk into it thinking they ought to be able to pick the fun parts and nothing else because "after all, I don't want to compete or test, I'm just having fun." Well that's GREAT and I hope everyone keeps having fun but, it wouldn't work that way for gymnastics or ballet or any other sport for that matter, so why do people think it should for skating? I understand there are limited funds, and time constraints, but in that case, it will just take a little longer. And adult should understand that there are "boring parts" and that they may last a while, and that's just the protocol of learning something new. You don't start piano lessons and think you can even attempt Mozart's "Turkish March". It'd be horrendous. I don't think it's right for a person to get taught steps the person is clearly not ready for, and unless there ARE impeccable basics, there's no point in learning more advanced stuff - it looks bad, and no matter how much you practice it, if you are doing it wrong because of a major basic skating flaw that you're unwilling to correct away from the difficult step, it will never look good. I see this a lot at the different rinks I have skated at. I know this may not be the case, but to me, when I watch it, it just looks like an utter lack of respect for the sport and art form in which you are participating to butcher a salchow because you don't know the concept of checking a 3-turn, for example.

So why is skating thought of in a way that you can sort of walk in and pick and choose what you want to learn, when nothing else works that way? And is it a good thing for adult skating as a whole (aka those willing to start from scratch and spend months/years getting their basics down before trying anything else). I thought I read somewhere (on here) that some people felt that adult skating was getting a very bad reputation because so many skaters couldn't skate properly (stroke, crossovers, three turns, etc...) and yet did tricks and that people were talking about how "the adult skaters need to learn how to skate", wasn't this at some USFS meeting or something? I don't think that's a good image to perpertuate, no matter how fun learning a jump before you're ready might be.

[dooobedooo]

Ice skating is a complex sport, and almost impossible to understand, for an uninformed spectator. Commentating on TV etc is largely done by lifelong skaters who do not realise the importance of explaining technique. So to the average non-participant, skating technique becomes a foggy world obscured by spangly dresses, smaltzy music, cheesy grins, and sticking-out bottoms. The only way to really understand the elements (and therefore respect their difficulty), is to learn and attempt them oneself - spins, jumps, edges, turns, whatever. For an adult, the engineering, physics and mechanical aspects of skating are interesting in themselves. Learning the elements, even to a very low standard, immeasurably helps appreciation of the sport.

You only have to look at the appalling marking discrepancies of some judges to understand this: if a judge is aged sixty plus, doesn't coach, passed silver free without jumps, or competed dance without lifts or twizzles - how can they possibly assess the relative difficulty?

Many lifelong skaters in positions of influence in the sport have a snobbish attitude to wider participation. But we need to remember that the survival of a sport depends on a large mass of interest and knowledge at the lower levels: no one sneers at a weekend jogger, because they are not an athlete like Kelly Holmes. No one sneers at a family playing football in the park, even if they may not be Ronaldo or David Beckham; but over much of the world, soccer is the biggest participation and spectator sport there is. Ice skating as a sport should learn from this.

[Mrs Redboots]

What she said! The more clubs that hold internal competitions two or three times a year, the better. That gives everybody something to work for. Our club has a rule that you have to have passed all your UK Skate tests (the basic learn-to-skate tests) to take part in the two major closed competitions it holds each year, but this is more honoured in the breach than in the observance. I've seen a child skate round doing the occasional spiral, who received just as big a round of applause, if not bigger, and was every bit as pleased with herself, as the child who landed her double axel. I know adults who are finding working on a very simple pairs sequence every bit as challenging, and as fun, as those working on a thrown triple axel. And I know a skater with Down's Syndrome who competes against the rest of us (and has been known to beat me in artistic competitions!), who placed last in the free dance class in the recent Scottish competitions, but who was awarded a gold medal for special achievement, and for helping out all day (which he had been doing, most efficiently). He was thrilled and delighted, you've never seen such a huge grin!

Could I add one thing nobody has mentioned yet in this fascinating discussion. Sometimes, skaters - and I mean all skaters, not just adults - simply don't realise that their basics aren't up to scratch. They can do something that looks like a 3-turn, or a rather cheated Choctaw, but it's not until something shakes them awake that they realise their turn is unchecked, or their edges aren't on an edge..... Dancers are trained to think that you can't practice your edges and turns too much, but we don't always realise this!

Take my husband as an example. He's a better skater than I am, there's no debate about that, but in many ways this is because he is not as afraid as me, so he can throw himself round turns that I am apt to balk at. So he dances in the level above me (Foxtrot, 14-step, Fiesta Tango, Willow Waltz - US Adult Bronze level, I suppose) with another partner, who is very good, much better than either of us, but who isn't very used to partnering more than the basic dances. And working with her on the Foxtrot really showed up the deficiencies in his basic skating. Which I could have told him about (and did, loudly and frequently! ;) ), so could his coach, but until he realised they were there, he didn't see that he needed to work on them. Now he does, and has been working on his back edges and on checking his 3-turns for hours on end this past week! Long may it last!!!!

[flo]

Fadedstardust - as far as adults, perhaps not as much "entitled" as realistic. I'm certainly not suggesting that someone learn an axel before a waltz jump, but we all don't have to follow the "standard" (whatever that may be), progression of skills. We all have different goals and learning abilities, and yes like it or not, time, money and physical ability are major factors in adult skating. There are many adult skaters who have less than desirable crossovers, but have some pretty decent jumps. It's not the ideal situation, but it's their situation. There are some skaters who will never get the basic skills as well as some might think they should have. Should they not be allowed to learn other skills and enjoy the sport as they wish to?
I skated with one pair partner who was brand new to pairs, and we wanted to compete our first season together. My thoughts were that he did not need to learn the world of pair elements in the "standard" order of progression, and we were limited by time and funds. We decided to carefully pick and choose what we would do, and do them well. It's not exactly the same, but an example of the real situations adult skaters encounter. By the way - it was a very successful and safe season.

[slusher]

Sometimes, skaters - and I mean all skaters, not just adults - simply don't realise that their basics aren't up to scratch. They can do something that looks like a 3-turn, or a rather cheated Choctaw,


I did brackets last night (senior bronze skills level) just because I wanted to be shown something hard, that I can't do, but could work towards as a reward. I'm actually working on preliminary waltzing 3's & mohawks (I can do them, and have been told I must test them) and we got off onto the topic of rotating the other way, and got into a brackets lesson. I would NEVER say that I can do brackets, although a managed a couple FI ones. This is where I am different from the a skater I know, if she did one bracket, she would talk about how she had mastered brackets. That's a misguided adult.

FYI, the progression of skills in Canada is front 3 turns (prelim), back 3 turns (jr bronze), brackets (sr bronze), that's a very very simplistic view. Did I want to learn back 3's. Nah. Brackets were more fun. Back 3's will come another day.

[jp1andOnly]

[QUOTE=slusher]I did brackets last night (senior bronze skills level) just because I wanted to be shown something hard, that I can't do, but could work towards as a reward. I'm actually working on preliminary waltzing 3's & mohawks (I can do them, and have been told I must test them) and we got off onto the topic of rotating the other way, and got into a brackets lesson. I would NEVER say that I can do brackets, although a managed a couple FI ones. This is where I am different from the a skater I know, if she did one bracket, she would talk about how she had mastered brackets. That's a misguided adult.

I agree. I have learned some tricks but I'm really focusing on improving my technique these days. My coach is laughing because I've really started asking a million technique questions. But we were talking and I said that my plain easy toe loop was not quite right and that i want to have the correct technique so I will be able to attempt a double. It's boring going back to the single toe but I realize just how "off" my technique is.

I don't mind saying "hey..i did AN axel almost clean..woohoo" but I would never say that I've mastered it. Sometimes things happen by freak chance but until you get a good completion ratio than it isn't even half way there. And once you can do it, mastering it is another story because there are so many technical parts to each element

And brackets....don't get me started. I can do them in a syncro line but by myself they are horrid.....

[doubletoe]

Could I add one thing nobody has mentioned yet in this fascinating discussion. Sometimes, skaters - and I mean all skaters, not just adults - simply don't realise that their basics aren't up to scratch.
Take my husband as an example. He's a better skater than I am, So he dances in the level above me with another partner, who is very good. And working with her on the Foxtrot really showed up the deficiencies in his basic skating. Which I could have told him about (and did, loudly and frequently! ;) ), so could his coach, but until he realised they were there, he didn't see that he needed to work on them. Now he does, and has been working on his back edges and on checking his 3-turns for hours on end this past week! Long may it last!!!!

That's a very good point! If you can "get by" with mediocre basics, it's tempting to do so because they're boring anyway. . . but eventually, you'll need to get them right in order to do more difficult--and fun--elements. So I guess that ensures that everyone will have to work on those basics sooner or later.

[NCSkater02]

My coach and I go back and forth. Some days we'll work on basic stuff--yesterday was crossovers, stroking, and edging--next week will be jumps and spins. Some days we do both--like if I'm having trouble with the 3turn entry of the salchow, we'll work on that for a while, then combine it back with the jump. I learn best in pieces. She'll teach me an entire move or element, I'll try it a few times, then we break it down into the individual parts. When I started learning salchow, I must have done the 3turn entry a million times before I even attempted to add the jump to it. We have just learned that I learn better that way.

The other thing is, my mind may know how to do something, but my body can't necessarily do it. I can think "check the 3turn" all day long, but I struggle with it. My running joke is that there is a barrier in my neck that prevents the skill from getting from my brain to my body. It's part of being 41.

Another thing--i started in adult Learn to Skate. Adult LTS is four levels. Kids LTS is eight levels, so once I finished adult and passed into freestyle, we had to go backwards, because many basic elements are missing from adult. Three years out, I'm still learning them. They just aren't taught in that curriculum.

I also changed my goals. I started out wanting to do laps to get some exercise and lose weight. I found out it was boring just doing laps, so I wanted to learn other elements, so I had to backtrack some there too, since we had just skimmed over some basics, and that was my choice, not the instructor's. (She's paying for that, 'cause she's my private coach and has to reteach them to me now.)

I'm one of those weird people that enjoys moves even while they frustrate me. I will frequently use them as a warm-up and/or cool-down (but not on FS ice time) So, I am still working on basic, and more advanced skills at the same time. I practice what my frame of mind needs that day, and usually get all my skills in every couple of days.

Everybody learns differently. If you want to coach, you'll have to accept that fact. If you can't, you'll either have no students, or only those that learn the way you want to teach. We have an Olympic medalist that teaches at our rink. She's a good skater, and I've had a few lessons with her, but she won't be my personal coach. I just don't learn well the way she teaches. We are friends off-ice, though.

Sorry, this is waaaaay too long. :roll:

[flippet]

You don't walk into gymnastics (actually I doubt there are adult gymnastics classes to begin with) and demand to be taught a back-handspring or an arabian because you don't want to bother with round-offs and cartwheels first.
Why not? This is a serious question. In learning a back handspring or an arabian, you'll also learn a round-off or cartwheel, because they are part of the element. You don't have to learn a round-off or cartwheel in isolation to 'perfection' before you can even touch the idea of a handspring. You can't do a full back handspring without a round-off, so you'll get a semblance of one in there whether you want to or not....but you can do, say, a standing back tuck without one. And if someone wants to learn a back tuck, and not a round-off, who are YOU to say they can't or shouldn't? What's it to you?







I do not for the life of me understand, and I ask myself this often while reading this section of the board, why figure skating is thought of as different. It's a difficult sport, with clear and pretty much cut-out steps to progression, and I don't know why some adults walk into it thinking they ought to be able to pick the fun parts and nothing else because "after all, I don't want to compete or test, I'm just having fun."
I bet you denigrate little kids tossing off crappy cartwheels on the park grass, or rotten bunny hops on a frozen pond, too, because they're 'just picking out the fun parts', and don't want to compete or test, but just want to 'have fun'. I'll say it again--it's not up to you to decide what is fun for other people.

You don't start piano lessons and think you can even attempt Mozart's "Turkish March". It'd be horrendous.
Sure it would. But if that's all you want, why not? I play piano, and while I was learning, there were a number of pieces that I really wanted to learn, even though they were beyond my abilities. I was sick to death of what I was working on, so on the side, I set a difficult but desired piece in front of me and picked it out. It took a long time before I had it all picked out, and even longer before I could play it so that it was recognizable, and longer still before I could play it with reasonable flow, etc. But you know what? I learned an awful lot about playing the piano while on the journey.

I'll borrow a quote from The Cutting Edge--"If you want to win, you play it straight." Well, if winning's your goal, I absolutely agree. If someone skips over the basics and still expects to win, they'll probably have a painful lesson coming to them. But if a person doesn't care one little whit about winning, and wants to take the road less traveled, then meandering is par for the course. Their path has nothing to do with yours--so why should you be upset? It's not your call.

[Hannahclear]

it seems like some adult skaters feel "entitled" (in quotations because I'm not sure that's the word I want but I can't think of another) to be able to learn whatever they want because they have little time and it costs a lot of money and they should learn whatever they want. I don't get how figure skating became that kind of sport, that people can walk into it thinking that.
You don't show up to a ballet class for the first time and demand to be put right onto pointe because you're strapped for time and you're a grown up and decide what parts of the process interests you most.

I don't know why some adults walk into it thinking they ought to be able to pick the fun parts and nothing else because "after all, I don't want to compete or test, I'm just having fun." Well that's GREAT and I hope everyone keeps having fun but, it wouldn't work that way for gymnastics or ballet or any other sport for that matter, so why do people think it should for skating? I understand there are limited funds, and time constraints, but in that case, it will just take a little longer.

Because it's their money and their life, that's why. It's their checkbook, not yours. I understand what you are saying, and I agree with your approach for my own personal goals, but why do I care what someone else wants to do for their hobby?

[kayskate]

My guess is those adults are having a lot of fun w/ their skating. They probably get a rush out of jumping or spinning, even if it is a weak element. They may also be learning all of these skills simultaneously.

I teach groups, and we start kids on waltzes before they are good basic skaters. Yes, they can skate and glide on 1 foot, but they are not strong skaters. It seems learning skills simultaneously is not only stimulating for the student, but these skills build upon each other. They learn to skate into the jump and glide out of it.

As an adult skater myself, I continue to improve my basics as I learn new tricks. My basics are stronger than ever, but they go hand in hand w/ other skills. If I didn't have a loop, I probably would not be motivated to skate as fast as I can into it. The faster and stronger I skate, the better the jump. The more confident I am w/ the jump, the more power I put into my skating. I guess it's a chicken and egg riddle for me.

Kay

[jp1andOnly]

Because it's their money and their life, that's why. It's their checkbook, not yours. I understand what you are saying, and I agree with your approach for my own personal goals, but why do I care what someone else wants to do for their hobby?

But they are the ones who then run out and complain that all the levels are unfair, etc. I'm making a HUGE generalization here because for the most part, many adults are probably just wanting to learn skills for fun, not competition or are very limited on time they can spend at the rink. IMO the ones who compete that have very poor skills and either try harder leveled elements in their program (i try a few harder elements in mine but i have the basic jumps and spins for that level) are the ones who complain more. For example, a skater who can't land a loop wants to put an axel in the program. That's fine, but then don't complain that you didn't win the competition or placed poorly and can't understand it when you attempted the axel.

I also think it is a lack of communication between coach and skater on expectations. We are adults and can communicate to our coach what our intentions are. I think that a lot of people don't and perhaps the coaches don't realize that some may want to test or compete.

I'm of the mind that if you want to learn elements thats great and there is nothing wrong with it, but if you plan on competing or trying tests then you have to realize you have to master the skills to the best of your ability. I think a lot of adult skaters get pushed along or just patted on the head because we are trying these things at older ages. Again, it relates back to expectations and the communication between skater and coach.

In Canada, Code of Points will be hitting the adult world in a year or two and I think adult skaters will be more well rounded because of it. I know that my program that I'm getting is being geared more towards COP even though its not in place yet.

[fadedstardust]

Why not? This is a serious question. In learning a back handspring or an arabian, you'll also learn a round-off or cartwheel, because they are part of the element. You don't have to learn a round-off or cartwheel in isolation to 'perfection' before you can even touch the idea of a handspring. You can't do a full back handspring without a round-off, so you'll get a semblance of one in there whether you want to or not....but you can do, say, a standing back tuck without one. And if someone wants to learn a back tuck, and not a round-off, who are YOU to say they can't or shouldn't? What's it to you?


I guess in doing ballet since I could walk I've just been taught that these sports/artforms have a natural progression and that there are rules as to what you learn before you progress. These rules have been followed everywhere in the world since the beginning of these art forms being taught and I just don't see why we should *******ize them (or skip them altogether) to make them more fun- they weren't designed to be fun to begin with. This natural progression teaches patience, discipline, and help build the muscles you will need for the more difficult elements. I guess I've always been taught- and now strongly believe- that you must "earn" the right to learn the hard/fun elements by practicing the basics until you're good enough to be worthy of them. It doesn't mean that's what everyone must do, but because I believe this so strongly, watching people do differently when it goes against everything I have been taught and believe about this sport, it does bother me because I don't think it's right. That doesn't take the "fun" out of it for others so I don't see where the problem in me feeling this way is. :)

I bet you denigrate little kids tossing off crappy cartwheels on the park grass, or rotten bunny hops on a frozen pond, too, because they're 'just picking out the fun parts', and don't want to compete or test, but just want to 'have fun'. I'll say it again--[b]it's not up to you to decide what is fun for other people

No, as I said in my post, most little kids don't have the maturity to understand the work ethic I described above. And if no one teaches it to them, then they cannot be expected to learn it on their own at such an early age. There are a lot of things children can be expected to do that are wrong that adults do not get the same leeway towards because they really ought to know better. Knowing that one must work through boring/annoying/challenging basics to get to progress naturally to more difficult things is a basic thing and anyone 18 and up should really grasp the process by now. I mean you don't usually start at a law firm as a partner- maybe you start as a lawyer but most likely you start as an assistant of some kind- and work your way up. When you learn to read, I doubt The Fountainhead is the first thing you'll pick up. There are just progressions in this world, and in a sport as old and as structured as skating, I don't know why we are trying to rewrite them, that's all. I'm learning that this sport is one that can be "for fun" and not just for people wishing to compete, but that is taking me a while to fully see, because I didn't use to understand why people would want to spend time/money on something they don't plan on competing/having a career in. Reading your posts a while back about a question of mine shed a lot of light on that. But so far I am just not seeing why we should alter the rules for anyone. If the basics of the sport aren't fun enough and people don't feel like sticking through them, then I don't see how they can like this sport because everything is based on the basics- you'll do them the rest of your life on the ice. So if you don't like them why do you like the jump? It's just a 3-turn with a hop. But a 3-turn without a hop isn't any fun? I don't get that.
I'm sorry to those I've bothered with these comments but these message boards are to exchange opinions and understand other people's ideas better, so that's what I am doing. :)

[gregyoshi]

I really appreciate the comments. I've seen several different sides of the story now.

Going back through the replies, I've noticed some comments where people say those skaters "doing it just for fun" are entitled to work on anything they want and I probably should mind my own business. Sure, I agree with that sort of. Unfortunately, the people I've been observing who seem to need to slow down and focus on basics are the ones who seem extremely competitive and serious.

Have you ever been involved in a comp where adults are crying before and after their skate? How about in testing where they are physically sick before they test and then cry before they even know the results and are angry when they have less than perfect comments or scores from judges? I HAVE. I'd be surprised if others haven't. Many adults seem to take what they do for more than just a rec hobby or for fun. So, why are the coaches who have these types of skaters letting them get by with extremely weak basic skills and allowing them to proceed into areas I see as downright dangerous-both physically and mentally?

I think its about honesty. I think its about money. I think some of the coaches are 1) afraid to be honest with the skaters and 2) just want that income rolling in and will do whatever the skater wants to pacify them. I think some of the skaters have unrealistic opinions about themselves and unobtainable goals. It is possible to have "fun" lessons and keep a student challenged and motivated even if you are working on things that lots of people here call boring. I think saying that the basic skills in skating can be boring and that adults need more "tricks" in their repertoire is a cop-out! Plies and tendus are basic and "boring" but even the professionals start out every day with lots and lots of them and you won't hear them complaining. I feel good skaters will put in the time and effort to be strong skaters and don't bite off more than they can chew and good coaches know when their student needs a reality check and won't push them into skipping all over the freestyle levels!

That's what I've come to believe and I think this "it's just for fun-mind your own business and hey, lets sign up for the next competition" attitude it is harming the reputation of the adult skating world. Skating is growing by leaps and bounds with children, but there aren't that many adults skating overall and if you want to be taken seriously, have more "adult only" ice time and classes, more competitions and performing opps available, I would work a bit harder to dispel the notion that adults skaters want all the glory but don't want to work hard and do the "boring" stuff. I'm a young adult skater and I have even younger friends. They think adults are, for the most part, A JOKE! They talk behind their(our) backs. They mock them/us. They think adults are just in the way on the ice. Is it fun to be perceived this way? Others could mind their own business, but honestly the feeling I get from most other younger skaters is negative toward adults. So overall I guess my reasons for talking about this is out of concern. I wouldn't be so content just saying to yourselves that the adults can do what they want and others should butt out because the rinks and organizations out there are catering to the kids and the parents, not the adults.

[skaterinjapan]

As an adult skater and coach, I've found some of the above postings to be pretty interesting!

Let me add my own story. I started skating when I was 14 at a competitive skating rink where most of my LTS and then freestyle classmates were nearly half my age. I didn't have the natural ability nor fearlessness for skating that many younger skaters had--I am absolutely petrified of falling--but I loved skating and was willing to work hard at any element I needed to.

I've been lucky in that my coaches have acknowledged my fears while also pushing me to reasonable limits. At first, my refusal to fall meant that my waltz jump was barely more than a glorified step, and my toe loop miniscule, but as I became more comfortable on ice, my jumping ability improved. However, my coaches continued to push me--landing clean jumps gave me clear mental hurdles I eventually overcame. So even though an onlooker might have discounted the quality of my single jumps when I was first learning them, I would instead argue that every skater starts somewhere. Sometimes it just takes us adults a little longer to get going.

My mother is a recreational skater who has been skater for 10 years but refuses to do anything more than forward skating and one-foot glides. Yet she's happy on the ice, so why should anything change?

As a coach, while I naturally enjoy the quick learners who are unafraid to take risks (who wouldn't?), I can empathize with students afraid to practice back crossovers or one-foot glides because they have bad memories of those elements. So, my own fears have instead allowed me to better understand the concerns of others when they step on the ice.

What I'm trying to say is that as an adult skater, I've learned how to push myself. As a coach, I've learned how to push my students. But there isn't a one-size-fits-all method for either coaching or skating. Each skater reacts differently to the ice, to jumping, to spinning. It's a successful coach that can figure out what will make the skater accomplish all she wants to.

On a side note--I took an adult gymnastics class at a university a few years ago. There were quite a few beginners who would attempt back handsprings despite being unable to do more basic elements like forward rolls. And you know what? They were having a great time in the practices alone, regardless of how much they ending up mastering.

-Kirsten

[Hannahclear]

But they are the ones who then run out and complain that all the levels are unfair, etc. I'm making a HUGE generalization here because for the most part, many adults are probably just wanting to learn skills for fun, not competition or are very limited on time they can spend at the rink. IMO the ones who compete that have very poor skills and either try harder leveled elements in their program (i try a few harder elements in mine but i have the basic jumps and spins for that level) are the ones who complain more. For example, a skater who can't land a loop wants to put an axel in the program. That's fine, but then don't complain that you didn't win the competition or placed poorly and can't understand it when you attempted the axel.

I also think it is a lack of communication between coach and skater on expectations. We are adults and can communicate to our coach what our intentions are. I think that a lot of people don't and perhaps the coaches don't realize that some may want to test or compete. .

Well, as with anything in life, there will always be whiners.
:P

[skaternum]

Have you even been involved in a comp where adults are crying before and after their skate? How about in testing where they are physically sick before they test and then cry before they even know the results and are angry when they have less than perfect comments or scores from judges? I HAVE. I'd be surprised if others haven't.Well I certainly haven't seen what you're describing, and I've been competing as an adult in USFSA for about 6 years now. It sounds like you're just around a bunch of drama queens! I don't really think there are that many adult skaters like you describe. Perhaps the rink/club environment where you are simply encourages histrionics. I've never seen that kind of angst over adult skating. (Recent Peach Classic not withstanding! ;) )

Sure, those of us who compete certainly take it seriously, but most of us realize our self-worth isn't tied to our test results! With any population (adult skaters) you're bound to get some crackpots. Don't judge adult skating by the nonsense you see at your rink!

As for those who are "competitive" but have poor basic skating skills, that situation will take care of itself. You can't make a self-delusional adult understand that they need to go back to the basics. The skaters will either continue their self-delusion and blame poor results on judges/coaches/music/etc., or they and the coach will figure out they need to spend some quality time with basic skills.

[Mel On Ice]

Have you ever been involved in a comp where adults are crying before and after their skate? How about in testing where they are physically sick before they test and then cry before they even know the results and are angry when they have less than perfect comments or scores from judges? I HAVE.

Hm. I have too, and I've actually been one of those skaters. Did you ever stop to find out WHY that adult was crying? I cried after my first-ever competition, because as a naturally shy person, I was thrilled I went through with it and that I had done what I set out to accomplish. Tears of joy, not anguish, big difference.

It is possible to have "fun" lessons and keep a student challenged and motivated even if you are working on things that lots of people here call boring. I think saying that the basic skills in skating can be boring and that adults need more "tricks" in their repertoire is a cop-out!

I don't disagree with you there. I didn't have an opinion of the standardizing of adult MIF until I had to do them. What a difference they made in my basic skating skills, I'm an advocate for them.

I'm a young adult skater and I have even younger friends. They think adults are, for the most part, A JOKE! They talk behind their(our) backs. They mock them/us. They think adults are just in the way on the ice. Is it fun to be perceived this way? Others could mind their own business, but honestly the feeling I get from most other younger skaters is negative toward adults. So overall I guess my reasons for talking about this is out of concern. I wouldn't be so content just saying to yourselves that the adults can do what they want and others should butt out because the rinks and organizations out there are catering to the kids and the parents, not the adults.

First, to those rude younger skaters, they should be ashamed. Adult skaters here, and where I used to skate in Michigan, are respected as an active part of the figure skating community, both on and off the ice. That Beta adult skater Suzy Snowflake is snickering about? He just volunteered to run to the airport to pick up the judges for her event. Little Hans Brinker thinks it's funny to imitate the lady in the middle practicing her two-foot spin? She's the one making his costume for the Christmas show. Or chairing a test event. Or donating a blanket for the club fundraiser. YOU as an adult have the power and influence to change their way of thinking, instead of going along with their way of thinking.

Your comments make me appreciate the kids I skate with and my local skating community.

[Mrs Redboots]

I really appreciate the comments. I've seen several different sides of the story now. It's an interesting discussion, and I thank you for starting it!

Going back through the replies, I've noticed some comments where people say those skaters "doing it just for fun" are entitled to work on anything they want and I probably should mind my own business. Sure, I agree with that sort of. Unfortunately, the people I've been observing who seem to need to slow down and focus on basics are the ones who seem extremely competitive and serious.Probably, as I said before, they have no real awareness of how badly they skate, but they want to learn the skills as soon as they can, simply because they are aware their bodies will eventually let them down.

Have you ever been involved in a comp where adults are crying before and after their skate? How about in testing where they are physically sick before they test and then cry before they even know the results and are angry when they have less than perfect comments or scores from judges? I HAVE. I'd be surprised if others haven't. Many adults seem to take what they do for more than just a rec hobby or for fun. So, why are the coaches who have these types of skaters letting them get by with extremely weak basic skills and allowing them to proceed into areas I see as downright dangerous-both physically and mentally? I've also seen children rigid with nerves before a test or competition, and weeping afterwards. You can't just say this is something adults do - it's something skaters do. Don't forget that many children, as well as adults, enjoy competing and testing with no real expectation that they'll ever be very good, but just because it's a most enjoyable sport. This doesn't mean they don't take it seriously, but they, like the adults, are recreational skaters. Maybe some of the older kids have an idea they might like to skate for Holiday or one of those during their gap year, but many more just want to skate instead of playing netball or rugby. Or, indeed, as well as!

That's what I've come to believe and I think this "it's just for fun-mind your own business and hey, lets sign up for the next competition" attitude it is harming the reputation of the adult skating world. Skating is growing by leaps and bounds with children, but there aren't that many adults skating overall and if you want to be taken seriously, have more "adult only" ice time and classes, more competitions and performing opps available, I would work a bit harder to dispel the notion that adults skaters want all the glory but don't want to work hard and do the "boring" stuff. I'm a young adult skater and I have even younger friends. They think adults are, for the most part, A JOKE! Then the culture at your rink must be totally and utterly different from the culture at mine. I simply don't recognise what you are describing. Here, adult skating is taken increasingly seriously. As you may or may not know, there is to be the first-ever ISU Adult World Championships next June, in Germany. I plan to be there. I would be very surprised indeed if I were to become World Champion at my level (pre-Bronze) and age group (III), but it won't be for want of trying that I don't. The other skaters at my rink, whether they are four or 74 - and we have both - take me seriously as a skater, just as they take themselves seriously. We have elite skaters preparing for the "real" British championships, and we have recreational skaters preparing for the local Winter Festival - but we are all skaters, we are all in it together, and we all help one another.

They talk behind their(our) backs. They mock them/us. They think adults are just in the way on the ice. Is it fun to be perceived this way? Others could mind their own business, but honestly the feeling I get from most other younger skaters is negative toward adults. So overall I guess my reasons for talking about this is out of concern. I wouldn't be so content just saying to yourselves that the adults can do what they want and others should butt out because the rinks and organizations out there are catering to the kids and the parents, not the adults.That may have been true ten years ago, but really, it no longer is. The ISU, NISA, the USFSA and now the Canadian figure skating organisation (is that CFSA, or is that too logical?) are all recognising adult skating as a serious branch of the sport. If you go to the NISA web page, you will see it is one of the recognised disciplines. Even the federations in France and Belgium, which have been difficult in the past, are beginning to recognise adult skaters and adult skating.

If your rink has a culture where adults are despised, then do something about it! But don't assume that what is the norm for your rink is the norm at other rinks, as it's not. Many, if not most rinks consider that skaters are skaters, whether they are 4 or 74, elite or beginners. We are all skaters.

[skatergirlva]

I think if you are planning on coaching you really need to consider why you want to coach. I love to skate and compete. I love to coach. I talk about my students all the time in everyday conversation.

It's challenging to be an adult skater. I'm working on my Novice Moves, but I haven't taken my Adult Gold Moves. Rationally, people have said to me, "You should take your Gold test because you passed Intermediate Moves." Maybe I would and maybe I wouldn't. However, I'm focussed on my Novice Moves and I practice them a lot. I went back and practiced the moves on the Gold test and they were shaky. It doesn't mean that my skills are good. (I passed my Intermediate test the first time I took it. :) ) However, it means as an adult, I have a one-track mind focussing on one goal at a time.

I teach tots up to ISI freestyle 4/5. Last night I was teaching a freestyle 2 class. I have one adult student who is happy to do his/her own thing and I add imput when I can. I'm not going to force this individual to do anything that he/she isn't ready to do or isn't willing to do. Yes, it can be frustrating, but you have to accept that all people learn differently. I also have a student in this class that I know from when I volunteered with Special Olympics. Last night she did three revolutions on a one foot spin. It was definitely not perfect, but my gosh, what an accomplishment. I congratulated the student and exchanged high fives. This spin was not perfect, but it was an accomplishment.

I agree that basic skills should be strong, however, I teach my tots waltz jumps or 2 foot spins and I don't think there is anything wrong with it. It's a reward system. We'll work on cossovers with good edges and then at the end of the lesson, one trick. All my private lessons, no matter what level they are start out with stroking, crossovers, etc.

Another helpful hint if you do decide to coach...remember how it feels to learn something. I skated from the time I was 3 until 11. Then I didn't skate again until I was 21. I have images in my mind of a few things. The spiral was tough because I had horrible skates. The inside axel...I fell a lot. The spread eagle...my coach told me that I needed to learn it or skate with the babies. However, I don't remember learning a 3-turn or a loop jump, or much. I have tried to teach myself to jump and spin left handed (with varying degrees of success-the flip is really scary...)

I hope that helps and ask your coaches if you can sit in or observe them as they teach.

Happy Skating! :)

[quarkiki2]

Wow! None of the kids at my rink think the adults are foolish or make fun of us adults. In fact, I can't get on the ice with them without three coming over to show me what they're learning or asking for help with their spirals (the only thing I can do really well).

Here's my deal: I'm never going to be a jumper. I might not be a great spinner. But I love practicing edge exercises and stroking. I may do lousy 3 turns, but I have a decent mohawk and skate with more fluidity than I really should. I nearly always have good alignment and skate with extension in everything I do. I don't try to enumerate my skills, because I don't really HAVE any. But I have fun each and every time I get on the ice. I am a teriffic cheerleader (ask Mel!) and am thrilled for every skill anyone learns. I take lessons because I enjoy the challenge and the people with whom I skate. I an guarantee that I do not have the best skating skills on my synchro team, but I remember every beat of choreography the first time we do something and I'm a human metronome when it comes to doing run-throughs without music or off-ice.

I take a power skating class weekly and a private lesson every other week. I'm working on a one-foot spin and a waltz jump and three turns in every direction/edge.

What do I want from my coach? Someone who teaches me the CORRECT way to do something from the very beginning. I don't just want to do it, I want to do it RIGHT.

And, yes, I have had 15 years of ballet and the discipline that goes with it. I simply don't want to do something if I haven't learned it the correct way. I've always been that way -- at least since I can remember. Now, the fact of the matter is, one must practice a skill to get it down, so you will see me out there attempting under-rotated 3 turns and waltz jumps that barely leave the ice. But I can't possibly do them well without practice, can I?

[gregyoshi]

skatergirlva, you're missing my point. I'm not saying it isn't good or wise to teach jumps and spins to adults who are willing to learn. I'm saying that I find it confusing and odd that I've seen many adults trying to do things that don't follow natural progression. Why is it acceptable to work on combination jumps and spins when the single jumps and spins are weak, technically incorrect and need lots of refinement themselves? Yet, you go to comps and see this stuff with adults all the time. It isn't just my rink. I go to comps to support people I know and skate with, adults included and it is painful to watch a person trying something such as a camel-sitspin when they can't do those elements well individually. What is the point? Why are coaches incouraging this? What is the value of being able to say you can do a waltz-loop combo and compete with those in a program if your waltz jump is 6 inches off the ice and you can't fully rotate the loop? Oh brother, I guess I'm too much of a perfectionist and some people just don't understand where I'm coming from.

Please though-next competition you participate in or observe, ask yourselves what you think about what you see people trying to do and if its good for adult skating and then get back with me.

[dbny]

I go to comps to support people I know and skate with, adults included and it is painful to watch a person trying something such as a camel-sitspin when they can't do those elements well individually. What is the point? Why are coaches incouraging this?

I don't think it's a fact that coaches encourage this. My guess (at least as good as yours, since I'm a coach, a skater and the mother of skaters) is that many people want to push their limits and that many want to do what is fun and not do what is boring.

I saw this with my younger daughter who started skating at 10 and had her axel in a year. I do mean that she landed the axel, not cheated, most of the time. Meanwhile, she barely squeeked past pre-prelim moves at year 2. This was a child who wanted to jump and spin and could not be restrained. When her coaches saw her attempting the axel on her own, they decided to work with her on it as a safer option than not. My daughter would have quit in that first year if she had not been allowed to work on jumps and spins as much as she wanted. We all knew she was not going to the Olympics, the point of her skating was for her to enjoy it! Her skating did finally catch up to her jumps and spins.

As a coach you have to have some insight into why your students want to skate. If you deprive them of their primary joy in skating, they will either leave you or quit skating.

[skaternum]

Why is it acceptable to work on combination jumps and spins when the single jumps and spins are weak, technically incorrect and need lots of refinement themselves? Yet, you go to comps and see this stuff with adults all the time.Several thoughts on this one: (1) Either your tolerance for "bad" is extremely low, or you're not going to the same competitons I'm going to. There is a definite "look" to adult skaters. Are you maybe confusing *that* with what you're seeing as bad skating? (2) Did you ever answer the question about when you started skating? Just from your postings, it seems like you either have a problem with adult skaters or just don't really understand what it's all about. We don't just mindlessly do what Coach tells us. We're very inidividualistic about our skating -- you can't generalize about us except to say that our brains and bodies are different from the kids.

it is painful to watch a person trying something such as a camel-sitspin when they can't do those elements well individually. What is the point?This is where you need to take a step back, get a deep breath, and get over it.
Oh brother, I guess I'm too much of a perfectionist Indeed you are. Perfectionism is good when you're coaching skaters with perfectionist tendancies. But you won't always get those students. Then what are you going to do?
and some people just don't understand where I'm coming from.Just like you don't understand where they're coming from Call it a draw and vow never to teach those students.

Please though-next competition you participate in or observe, ask yourselves what you think about what you see people trying to do and if its good for adult skating and then get back with me.I don't need to go to another competition. I've been competing for years. I still want to know, what the **** are you watching? I've been in local club comps, non-qualifying adult comps (like Peach Classic, New Years Adult Invitational, etc.), and Adult Nationals. There will always be skaters/coaches who are self-delusional (we've got one of those in my club) or who put too-difficult elements in their programs, but it's not the epidemic you describe. I think you've got some crummy adult skaters in your area, and it's just driving you crazy. And in my experience, adult skaters are treated with respect and admiration for having the guts to something most people wouldn't try. Your world is sad: only do things you can do well; only do things that will keep some 7 year old from making fun of you. I like my world better.

[Hannahclear]

Several thoughts on this one: (1) Either your tolerance for "bad" is extremely low, or you're not going to the same competitons I'm going to. There is a definite "look" to adult skaters. Are you maybe confusing *that* with what you're seeing as bad skating? (2) Did you ever answer the question about when you started skating? Just from your postings, it seems like you either have a problem with adult skaters or just don't really understand what it's all about. We don't just mindlessly do what Coach tells us. We're very inidividualistic about our skating -- you can't generalize about us except to say that our brains and bodies are different from the kids.

This is where you need to take a step back, get a deep breath, and get over it.
Indeed you are. Perfectionism is good when you're coaching skaters with perfectionist tendancies. But you won't always get those students. Then what are you going to do?
Just like you don't understand where they're coming from Call it a draw and vow never to teach those students.

I don't need to go to another competition. I've been competing for years. I still want to know, what the **** are you watching? I've been in local club comps, non-qualifying adult comps (like Peach Classic, New Years Adult Invitational, etc.), and Adult Nationals. There will always be skaters/coaches who are self-delusional (we've got one of those in my club) or who put too-difficult elements in their programs, but it's not the epidemic you describe. I think you've got some crummy adult skaters in your area, and it's just driving you crazy. And in my experience, adult skaters are treated with respect and admiration for having the guts to something most people wouldn't try. Your world is sad: only do things you can do well; only do things that will keep some 7 year old from making fun of you. I like my world better.


:bow: This is a fabulous post. I could not agree more.

[doubletoe]

Well, whether people agree with you or disagree with you, this has certainly become a popular post! I think you should sell ad space! :P

[vesperholly]

I agree with a lot of what has been said here.

I think the original post was about the difference between talking the talk and walking the walk. For instance, Susie Skater has a cheated axel and an inconsistent double sal. But when she talks about her skating, she says she "has" her axel and double sal. I think most of that comes from the inherently competitive nature of the sport. Talking a little bigger to intimidate the competition, although that's not usually the immediate goal or desire. Some people do it out of a little bit of delusion to make themselves feel better. It's depressing telling everyone how much you suck all the time. :) I think sometimes it's ok to be less than realistic.

Although I take my skating very seriously, I realize that there are people who don't take their own skating as seriously. I liken it to my experiences playing piano. I took private lessons for 7 years. I came out of it not being able to play very well, because by the time I was in high school I didn't want to do technique songs and boring exercises anymore. I bought some Tori Amos sheet music books and asked my teacher to help me work on those instead. Since I hadn't learned the techniques very well, my playing wasn't very good. But I liked it and it made me happy. It was continued income for her, and I got to work on what I wanted. Some people approach skating that way. So what? As long as they're not a danger to themselves or others, let them eat cake. Different skaters have different goals.

I know coaches whose skaters have flutzes, wrapped jumps, cheated jumps, bad technique. They attempt every jump they can in programs without killing themselves. And I know coaches who wouldn't dare put in an inconsistent jump in a program, who hold skaters back until they're overprepared for tests, who send their skaters to ballet lessons and choreographers and custom dressmakers to polish them within an inch of their life. Different strokes for different folks. I wish every skater valued deep smooth edges, strong fast spins, high and clean jumps. Not every skater is Ryan Jahnke. :)

You should either choose to live happily and take the high road in the melting pot of personalities that is this world and skating, or you can become bitter and obsessed with it. Your choice.

[mikawendy]

Have you ever been involved in a comp where adults are crying before and after their skate? How about in testing where they are physically sick before they test and then cry before they even know the results and are angry when they have less than perfect comments or scores from judges? I HAVE.

Gregyoshi--I know people who have passed their gold dances (and with very few retries) who would get physically sick before each test. Not because they were doing things out of sequence or because they had an unrealistic view of their skating, but because of how their body reacts to stress. Sometimes people cry before getting their results because of relief or perhaps because of their opinion of how they skated at that time--perhaps they felt they were off *that day* for *that skate* or disappointment in a certain element.

I don't think this has been mentioned yet (sorry if it has--I've been reading this thread at different times)--but when/if you do take on students, it might be good for you to have a discussion up front with each student about goals, work process, etcetera, so that each of you has an idea where the other is coming from. As others have mentioned, some skaters will agree and thrive under your perspective/process, whereas others may have a different style or focus. This kind of discusssion would foster a more productive relationship between you and the student and could potentially save time (and money, for the skater) if you don't see eye to eye.

I feel badly for you that you skate in an area where adults are mocked. Although every rink and every skating club can have its drama from time to time, the kids and teenagers I know are very supportive of the adults (and their peers), don't mock the adults, and practice very good ice etiquette (with the exception of a few young ones who are total space cadets). We are mutually interested in each other's progress and accomplishments in skating, working hard, and enjoying ourselves.

[flippet]

I'm learning that this sport is one that can be "for fun" and not just for people wishing to compete, but that is taking me a while to fully see, because I didn't use to understand why people would want to spend time/money on something they don't plan on competing/having a career in.
Ah, this is the problem, then. Have you never done anything just for fun, without feeling a need to be perfect at it? How about playing a game of pick-up baseball or basketball on the playground at school? How about writing a poem, or painting a picture? It would be a sad, sad world if no one could do anything without having to make a career of it.

I guess in doing ballet since I could walk I've just been taught that these sports/artforms have a natural progression and that there are rules as to what you learn before you progress.
What was your goal in taking ballet? Was it just something to do with your free time, or were you intending to be a Dancer? I've met a few people for whom dance isn't art ot sport--it's life. . . and these folks do seem to have a hard time understanding how anyone else can separate it--how it can possibly be just a small part of a life instead of a whole life in and of itself.

Goals are a huge part of how seriously someone takes something. I take my skating a lot more seriously than I took my college ballet class, but then my goals were completely different. I did intend to eventually compete in adult skating events. I never had any illusions about being any kind of dancer. I was never going to audition for a company, I was never even going to dance in a recital. Sure, I wanted to get the steps and movements right--but a 'good' pirouette on me means getting around without falling down, and without dropping my shoulders to China. Since I didn't have huge goals for ballet in the first place, that was enough. I was never going to take it far enough for my crappy spotting to mean anything. Don't get me wrong--I loved my ballet class. But it was strictly for fun and stretching my horizons a bit. I was always more strict with myself with skating, because I wanted to take it further, and look as sharp as possible doing it (which may not be perfect, but it was to the best of my abilities). But for another skater, skating might be their 'ballet class'. As long as they're not hindering my progress (and they're not), I don't give a rip.



As for greg...I'm going to read between the lines a bit. Maybe I'm wrong, but my theory is that since he's said that he's an 'in-between' skater, moving into the adult realm...he's probably still hanging out with the younger skaters, some of which appear to be little punks who wouldn't know maturity if it smacked them upside the head, who think it's funny to make fun of adult skaters. And since greg is soon to become an 'adult skater', he'd rather that the entire set of them 'shape up' and stop skating like crap, because he's worried he's going to get lumped in with them, and it will make him look bad. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm going to agree with the other posters who've said that that crappy little attitude really isn't all that prevalent. Sure, I've seen a drama queen or two, but on the whole, the kids I've skated with are very supportive. And for the DQs, well, it eventually comes around to bite them in the @ss anyway.

I also said previously that if an adult isn't skating up to standard, but thinks they're still going to compete and win with the sad stuff they've got, well, they'll eventually learn differently. Once you compete against a large enough field, you discover what's up to snuff, and what's not. I certainly do not advocate changing standards to accommodate rotten, poorly executed attempts at elements. Just remember that a toe loop competed at Pre-Bronze level will look vastly different from one competed at Silver. You don't expect the kids skating Intermediate to look like kids in Seniors, do you?

[Stormy]

I'm a young adult skater and I have even younger friends. They think adults are, for the most part, A JOKE! They talk behind their(our) backs. They mock them/us. They think adults are just in the way on the ice. Is it fun to be perceived this way? Others could mind their own business, but honestly the feeling I get from most other younger skaters is negative toward adults.


At my rink, there are a couple adult skaters who come in the mornings, and there's me. I used to work at my rink and all the kids know me and have supported me for years. It's a GREAT feeling. And I've never heard anything disparaging said about adult skaters from any of my friends. If the skaters at your rink are mocking adults, why don't you speak up for yourself? Bottom line, we're all skaters, whether it's the 12 year old Junior National Champion, Michelle Kwan, or me. We all skate because we LOVE to skate. I think it's really sad that you don't say anything to these kids, and that it bothers you that much. If you truly enjoy skating, you shouldn't let it bother you. And if some kids don't like adult skaters, so what?? They're not your peers, other adult skaters are. I don't compare myself to my friends who are trying triples.

[Figureskates]

Because of my unusual work schedule, I can go skating during the week and I usually go to some morning sessions. A lot of the times I am the only adult...I joke that I raise the average age 10 years when I step out onto the ice.

I have never heard one discouraging word or any mocking from any of the kids there. In fact some of them give me encouragement and some pointers as well. I know most of their patterns and try to stay out of the way.

I have the greatest coach in the world. She is patient and explains in detail. She is a profectionist but so am I so there is no problem there. I am working on figures and plan to test next summer at Lake Placid since I am the only skater at my rink, kid or adult, who is doing figures. By the way, figures has really improved my edge quality.

I have no delusions about my skating. I realize I am a 58 year old male with a rebuilt left knee and arthritis in my lower back and on some days it shows. Compared to other adults skaters, I may be on the lower end of the food chain but I am having a lot of fun and I am making progress, albiet slowly. However, compared to a lot of overweight, out of shape friends my age...I am doing great!!

[Mrs Redboots]

Why is it acceptable to work on combination jumps and spins when the single jumps and spins are weak, technically incorrect and need lots of refinement themselves?Well, one of the coaches at my rink - and he has been in the sport for well over 40 years - tells me that combination jumps first happened because skaters couldn't hold the landing of a jump in isolation, but had to tack a cherry-flip or loop on to the end to stabilise themselves! So perhaps the adults in question actually find combination jumps easier?

But please don't pretend it's only adults who do this! I've seen younger skaters try elements they're not really ready for, just for fun. In fact, most coaches do help their skaters get some idea of a great deal of stuff, and then go back and consolidate it all later.

And if you are going to teach, you are going to have to teach all sorts and conditions of skaters, from the older woman who just hangs on to your arm all the time and doesn't dare even push, through the kids who are skating as one of a plethora of activities, to the adults who take it fairly seriously but know quite well they'll never be very good, the kids ditto, and, if you are exceptionally lucky, maybe you will have one, just one student who goes places.

Yet, you go to comps and see this stuff with adults all the time. It isn't just my rink. I go to comps to support people I know and skate with, adults included and it is painful to watch a person trying something such as a camel-sitspin when they can't do those elements well individually.But this applies to all skaters, not just to adults! Don't pretend you never see a child skater fluff an element in a competition, or do something that is probably just beyond her capability!

What is the point? Why are coaches incouraging this? What is the value of being able to say you can do a waltz-loop combo and compete with those in a program if your waltz jump is 6 inches off the ice and you can't fully rotate the loop? Oh brother, I guess I'm too much of a perfectionist and some people just don't understand where I'm coming from.You've never heard of having fun, then? Lots of skaters - and honestly, this applies to all age groups, not just adults - are in it for the sheer fun of it. They don't plan to make a career of it, couldn't care less if they never passed another test - but they are still going to see how far they can get. The younger ones will probably lose interest with secondary school or, if they survive that, with their first serious romance, but the adults will probably stay with it while they are physically able to do so.

Please though-next competition you participate in or observe, ask yourselves what you think about what you see people trying to do and if its good for adult skating and then get back with me.Again, you must show why this is just adults? In my experience, it's all of us.

And yes, it is good for our sport. It's superb for our sport. It's exactly what our sport needs. You are saying, basically, that nobody can play on a football team unless they are in the Premiership, or whatever your equivalent in the USA is. That nobody can bake a cake unless they are a master chef. That nobody can go to a swimming-bath unless they can swim 50 lengths without stopping in all four main strokes.

How, please, do you plan for people to learn? And what do you do with the 99.9% of athletes who never get beyond the basics?

[hankykeely]

You will find all sorts of personalities with figure skaters and all sorts of coaches to coach them. I'm sure, Greg, that you'll fit in the big scheme of things somewhere so don't let some of these members here get you down. Your intentions seem all good.

The problems you talk about don't seem to be solely with adults; the kids and teens can be just as bad and the parents many times feed into the frenzy to do advanced jumps and spins. I've been in skating most of my life and I think there is more of a push in recent years to do things faster, bigger, with more rotations, all that, rather than striving to have more artistry and well balanced skaters. I think it is sad.

You seem to have more than your share of prima donnas at your rink and it could be due to your location and popularity of skating in your area. I don't know. I have skated at many rinks on a regular basis and know there are kids and adults alike who need to check their tiaras at the door, so you aren't alone on that. Coaches have their own agendas and some call the kids and adults on their behavior, some don't. Some coaches will teach whatever the student wants and go the direction the student wants to go, even if the expectations are highly unrealistic. They want happy students and to have a full schedule. It is a business, from a coaching perspective. I don't think they're producing very talented skaters in the long run and I betcha the majority of those students rushing into the tricks will burnout and never come anywhere close to the goals their set out to achieve in the first place. Plus, the coaches aren't doing their reputations any favors. The word gets out, trust me. I think there are checks and balances with this problem you are concerned about, so hang in there!

[flo]

Greg- since your original obective of this post was to gain information for your potential coaching, I would have to say that as an adult (successful,serious ...adult) , I would not take lessons from a coach with your perceptions. You may want to think about what type of students you are wishing to attract.

[Hannahclear]

I agree. The original post mentioned that this might sound "uppity" and I must heartily agree with that sentiment. Why would I want to pay you money if you think adult skaters are a joke? Especially if you act that way.

As a potential coach, I would suggest that you don't have much business sense.

I am an adult skater, with a college degree, a husband and a nice life. I feel pretty good about my choices and my choice to skate as a hobby. I don't go to the rink to feel crappy about myself or skating in general. That's why it's a HOBBY-i.e. something one does for FUN.

Finally, why the heck would I care what some snotty teenager thinks of me?

[gregyoshi]

You know what Hannahclear and FLo, I haven't attacked you personally and I don't think I've attacked anyone else here. Why does it seem you're really getting rude and antagonistic towards me? I never said I thought adult skaters were a joke! I NEVER SAID THAT!

I don't have much business sense? Did I say I was in business? I'm a student. I have a bachelors degree in dance. I'm working on my masters in dance education. I don't have a business degree but maybe I should get one? Is that what you're saying? I guess coaches get their MBA before they coach? Are you saying that because I think skating basics should be stressed before moving on to harder elements, I have bad business sense and shouldn't be considering coaching? Are you saying the coaches who skim over this stuff, let their students do whatever their 'lil heart desires- have good business sense? You're saying I'm in the minority out there? Go ask some elite coaches what they think. I'm interested.

Are you saying that everyone should just have fun and not worry about injury or the reputation of the adult field of competitive and rec skating? Are you saying that teenagers, the ones who make up a very, very large percentage of the comp skating world, should treat adults like you who have no regard for what they think-with respect and deference? What ARE you saying cuz I'm getting confused.

I am trying to learn. I did said that. I didn't say I was a teenager, either. Also, I am years and years away from wanting to coach. I have much to learn. I have appreciated all the comments so far and I've said that. I haven't said "no, you're wrong" when people disagreed with me and I haven't said I was right and that my view was the gospel and that anyone else not on my sheet of music was wrong. I am willing to listen and learn and gather some insight. Excuse me for entering my thoughts on these questions and sharing with people what my perception and observations are. I guess you don't want to know all sides of the story, only your own. Sorry. I am not going to pursue this discussion any longer because I think you're only hearing what you want to hear and you're not as open minded as many posts here keep saying I need to be. Greg

[doris]

I'd just like to comment that learning things "out of order" is often a valuable teaching technique. Also, what the correct order is depends what syllabus you're learning from.

When I was a kid learning to skate, the only tests were figure tests. Back three turns were tested on the second figure test (juvenile test). By the time most skaters had passed the first test, they usually were landing axels already and at least starting to work on the first double jumps. And there was no requirement for coaches to teach back three turns before then.

I quit shortly before I was ready to test my first figure test. So I was starting to learn double salchows, but I had never been taught back threes.

These days the USFSA has a learn-to-skate program that introduces back threes before most (any?) of the single jumps. Skaters who come up through that program will at least be familiar with the concept of turning from backward to forward on one foot from an early stage and be able to incorporate those turns in footwork or as transitions in programs long before they're ready to control the edges enough to do second-test figures or prejuvenile and higher Moves in the Field.

As an adult, I struggle with the back threes on the prejuv alternating threes pattern, which is why I am unable after years of adult skating to test prejuvenile moves, and which is one reason I'm not close to being able to test the adult silver moves either. My coach has me working on back threes not only in the prejuv and intermediate patterns on the adult silver test, but also in other patterns or parts of patterns from juvenile, intermediate, and novice tests and exercises she puts together herself. Working on something from a higher test or just a different pattern actually makes it easier for me to learn something useful about weight placement, etc., for the back turns than if I just repeated the prejuv pattern over and over again.

The prejuvenile freestyle test requires both a camel and a camel-sit combination. The adult silver freestyle test requires camel and any combination, camel-sit being the easiest/most common choice. Skaters working toward these tests are working to get the solo camel up to a test standard for the first time, but also on combining it with another position. Going from camel to sit is actually often a good way to save a shaky camel entry. So in a competition program, why not put in the combination if it has a better chance to finish strongly than the solo camel?

My loop jumps tend to be better in some ways as the second jump in a combination than as solo jumps. I can do loops from several different approaches, but the ones I'm best at would not be very useful for double loops should I ever be ready to attempt those. Should I only do loops from one entry, and only one that's supposed to set up a jump I may never get to, or should I keep trying them from all sorts of approaches and try to transfer what I learn about the technique from the setups that work best to the other setups that are harder for me?

In other words, working on harder skills and combinations of skills often helps improve the easier ones more than just repeating the basics in isolation.

And often skills have been mastered enough to be combined or elaborated for fun or for program choreography long before they're perfected (when is any skill really perfect anyway?) or even mastered to test standard in isolation. And often different skaters learn different types of moves easily and struggle with others at the same test level. So flexibility in the learning sequence is a positive, IMO.

I'm lucky that my current coach approaches things like this, and unlucky that my childhood coach didn't think to pre-teach some harder basic skills out of sequence.

[2loop2loop]

I'd just like to comment that learning things "out of order" is often a valuable teaching technique..

Very good point. One thing that you didn't touch on in your post though are the psychological benefits of working on harder stuff. Sometimes working on more difficult skills than those you can do well helps with your confidence on the easier skills.

As an example, when I was first able to land my axel, if only tentatively, I discovered that I could pop up from the landing and come really close to tacking a double loop on the end. I worked on this at first with no real hope of landing it, but it sure made doing an axel on its own feel far less daunting. There is a clear correlation between having the nerve to attempt an element with confidence and the likelihood of it being a good attempt, and working on harder stuff is a sure way to improve your confidence on the easier stuff. After that my axel was never much of a problem. Eventually I landed my double loop for the first time this way too.

John

[dbny]

I'd just like to comment that learning things "out of order" is often a valuable teaching technique. Also, what the correct order is depends what syllabus you're learning from.

I agree. Once again, from my experience at the PSA conference: in the on-ice segment on teaching turns, the presenter noted that many times a student will rotate the wrong way when learning three turns, but we should not "correct" that, but rather, point out that the "wrong" rotation for a three turn produces a bracket....thus turning a mistake into a learning experience. Of course we do not teach brackets at the same time as threes, but when the opportunity presents itself, we should at least introduce the concept of the more advanced turn.

[skateflo]

Okay Gregyoshi, chill out. You now let us know that you have been in the dance world for quite some time. Tell us why you want to enter the skating world? Do you plan to coach skating or choreography or bring your ballet education to help skaters 'present' better? There are some wonderful off-ice ballet instructors that do come onto the ice to help skaters with their body movements. The ones that are successful work well with the technical coaches and don't try to cross over the line.

I think there has been a many excellant posts here for you to digest in our attempt to answer your initial question. I would like to see the PSA pick up on these posts and share them with their coaches!

Perhaps it is time for you to discontinue participation here as we seem to be at an impasse.

I want to thank everyone for some very insightfull stories and serious thought. It has helped me to understand and accept my own adult skating history.

[CanAmSk8ter]

As a young adult who frequently coaches adults, I thought I'd add to this enlightening discussion.

In some ways, the hardest part about coaching adults is that they have their own ideas and agendas. Obviously, most take their coaches' ideas and agendas into consideration when making decisions! The other important point is that adults, like kids, are going to have varying levels of committment to the sport. I have one adult student right now who I only manage to give a lesson to every month or so, between my schedule and his (don't get me started on the ice schedules in our area right now). I've explained to him that regardless of how often we work together, he's really only going to improve if he can practice on a regular basis. He doesn't often manage to do this. As a result, we're working on the same things we were working on when I took him on eighteen months ago. He talks about doing things that he's years away from doing, like starting dance, and I remind him that he'd have to be putting in a lot more hours on the ice and getting lessons at least once a week to be making that kind of progress. Is it frustrating? Yes, for both of us. But I've accepted that he's not going to be a super-dedicated, quick-progressing student, and we work with that. He's very enthusiastic when we do get together, and I still enjoy teaching him. I had another adult student in her late fifties/early sixties who had skated off and on for several years but had never managed to "get" crossovers. I was able to get her doing them on one side, but not the other. She had a lot of fear issues that she wasn't really willing to totally push herself to get over- which is fine. I accepted the fact that if she ever got those CW crossovers it would be quite awhile down the road, and we worked on other basics in the meantime. Before we lost our ice time, I actually did get her to do one CW crossover on three or four separate occasions.

Would I like it if all of my adult students were 100% realisitic about their abilities, and willing to push themselves and get in the practice time they need to achieve their goals? Of course. But with adults- any students really- you have to take them for what they are and what they're willing to give. And yes, there are some adult skaters out there with a truly overblown sense of their abilities. I know a couple. But what tends to happen is that they get their butt kicked in a competition, or fail a test, (it may have to happen more than once, BTW) and they either quit or say to their coach, "What do I have to do differently?"

[NCSkater02]

Because of my unusual work schedule, I can go skating during the week and I usually go to some morning sessions. A lot of the times I am the only adult...I joke that I raise the average age 10 years when I step out onto the ice.

I have never heard one discouraging word or any mocking from any of the kids there. In fact some of them give me encouragement and some pointers as well. I know most of their patterns and try to stay out of the way.

I have the greatest coach in the world. She is patient and explains in detail. She is a profectionist but so am I so there is no problem there. I am working on figures and plan to test next summer at Lake Placid since I am the only skater at my rink, kid or adult, who is doing figures. By the way, figures has really improved my edge quality.

I have no delusions about my skating. I realize I am a 58 year old male with a rebuilt left knee and arthritis in my lower back and on some days it shows. Compared to other adults skaters, I may be on the lower end of the food chain but I am having a lot of fun and I am making progress, albiet slowly. However, compared to a lot of overweight, out of shape friends my age...I am doing great!!

This is pretty much me, too. I skate three times a week for a total of 3-4 hours. I'm hoping to start bumping that up soon. I too, am usually the oldest on the ice--even including most of the coaches. Most of the kids know me, and some of them even talk to me.

My coach teaches me basic and more advanced skills at the same time, frequently in the same lesson. And, we both know my limitations. I have a healthy dose of fear when I do anything going backwards, so we approach that cautiously. I'll never be a great skater--I may never win a competition--but I have fun and am learning something everytime I step on the ice. Isn't that what life is about?

I'm 41, started skating at 38. Most of the other adult skaters at my rink (who I rarely ever see) are 10+ years younger than me. And, like you, I am getting better a little at a time, and have a sport that most of my friends and co-workers will NEVER attempt.

[Hannahclear]

You know what Hannahclear and FLo, I haven't attacked you personally and I don't think I've attacked anyone else here. Why does it seem you're really getting rude and antagonistic towards me? I never said I thought adult skaters were a joke! I NEVER SAID THAT!

I don't have much business sense? Did I say I was in business? I'm a student. I have a bachelors degree in dance. I'm working on my masters in dance education. I don't have a business degree but maybe I should get one? Is that what you're saying? I guess coaches get their MBA before they coach? Are you saying that because I think skating basics should be stressed before moving on to harder elements, I have bad business sense and shouldn't be considering coaching? Are you saying the coaches who skim over this stuff, let their students do whatever their 'lil heart desires- have good business sense? You're saying I'm in the minority out there? Go ask some elite coaches what they think. I'm interested.



I was referring to your younger friends who think that adult skaters are a joke. Why do I care what they think? No really, why?

If you want to be a coach, you'd better have some business sense to attract and keep students. With your current attitude, as a prospective theorectical student, there's no way I'd hire you. And I'm a skater.

I actually agree that basics come first, but your attitude is borderline insulting.

Finally, I agree with flo.....chill. You ask for opinions and you'll get them! :P

[Tessie]

I'm just curious what you all think... I know some adults who are really marginal skaters as far as having good, strong basic skating skills ....so what is the value of being able to say you can do a camel or sit spin if there are only 2 revolutions at best and you can't even do back crossovers in both directions, don't have a strong or centered scratch spin or are deathly afraid of having any speed or of falling? Do you know what I mean? I know this sounds really uppity but I'm not trying to be that way. I just don't understand, for example, what good it does a skater to say they can do a waltz-loop combo if they don't have a decent waltz jump with a solid landing position to begin with. What good is it to have a sporty little list of things you can say you "do" in freestyle? Does anyone else feel something is missing in that picture? Are coaches misguiding students? Is it the adult skater wo is too eager to "have" these skills and skim too fast over the foundation? I just don't understand and as a future coach (wannabe) I just want to learn what motivates people this direction. Thoughts? Greg

What I am reading on this thread is consistent with what we see on the ice and in human nature. Some want to learn an element well and will take time to master it others prefer to "check the box" and say they have passed. We see that at work & school. But in the end it all catches up. (tortoise & the hare story).

I started a year or two behind some of the adults with whom I skate. One in particular seemed to gloat a bit as to what level he was at. Two years later I am only one level behind him. He seemed more interested in the badge level than true mastery. Which seems to be catching up with him at the higher levels. I might add that his posture is poor and arm positions are not straight, and no edges on cross overs. He has spent a fortune on skates (always the latest boot and over the top blades). But you know what, that's what gives him pleasure and how he likes to execute his hobby.

I probably don't look great on the ice, wimpy jumps & un relaxed shoulders. But I spent time developing the areas I am weak on and don't care about the levels.

This is an individual sport and how it gives us pleasure and satisfies our motivations and goals is unique to each of us.

I see that coaches ask what we want to get out of the sport and work towards helping us acheive that within the framework of badge and testing levels. :bow:

[arena_gal]

I skate, in Canada and test (prelim skills, jr bronze dance (passed with goods, thankyou), and am working on preliminary freeskate) I went to an adult competition last year to support a friend and maybe to get an idea of competing myself. I see another lady who tries a camel spin for a rev, and who couldn't hold her spiral elsewhere in the program, a layback (I think) that goes for 1.5 revolutions and a corkscrew spin that had maybe 3 revs and something that I think was a flip but really her feet never left the ground and the time was endless with scratchy SLOW stroking inbetween.

I was embarrassed. It's easy enough to say "oh good for you, you did it" but really I wanted to say "oh my god, where is your basic skating?" What on earth was she doing attempting a camel spin when she couldn't do a basic one foot spin? Why was she emulating a flip when her waltz jump was tiny?

I skate on a lot of sessions, and I see adults, in the centre, practicing their spins and jumps, but it is rare that I see an adult go flying around in russian stroking. They're happy with half speed tricks but won't put the speed into them.

Sure, adults can ask to be taught these things and coaches oblige, and I'm sure that good coaches try to reinforce the basics and if adults don't listen the coach shouldn't sign the competition papers. The lady that I saw at the competition, the one thing the bunch of us in the stands wanted to know was who her coach was, not so much why the lady was skating so weakly because we thought the coach was crazy for letting the lady out there.

[sk8er1964]

I have read this thread with interest. Let me throw something out there...

I think one of the things about beginning adults has to do with perception. If you see a 7 year old tottering around the ice with no real basics, your mind thinks - awww, how cute. If you see a 30 year old out there tottering around, your eyes see something wrong (because an adult should not be tottering around) and your brain processes it as a problem. Realistically, there is no difference between a 7 year old learning their first few steps and a 30 year old learning their first few steps.

Where the difference comes, though, is that the 7 year old has no fear and the 30 year old does. Believe me, that makes all the difference in the world.

I do not advocate adults ignoring the basics - I think MIF's are a great thing - but you have to give adults a bit of slack. More power to them for getting out there and trying.

(I will admit a bit of chargrin about adult skaters claiming to own moves that they are years away from being proficient at - or worrying that others are winning when they aren't, because they don't have those basics - however, to each his own, and if it makes them happy, so be it. It happens with kids, too - I got kicked by a competitor - wearing skates - once because I had beaten her too many times - I still have the scars 30 years later.)

[Ellyn]

What I am reading on this thread is consistent with what we see on the ice and in human nature. Some want to learn an element well and will take time to master it others prefer to "check the box" and say they have passed.

And some want to keep working on the elements that still need work (and don't they all, to one degree or another?) and ALSO start working on something new or different every so often.

[Chico]

I've been thinking about this topic alot. And ya know, I think adults have a different perspective to skating than children and most coaches because they HAVE to. Seriously, we fit skating into our lives. Our lives don't center around skating. Think about it, most "kiddlies" skate ALOT and get many lessons in a week. Many kids are home schooled even. Coaches, for the most part, have grown up in this atmosphere. Adult skaters, at least this adult skater, moves heaven and earth to make time to skate each week. I've been known to juggle like crazy to protect my skating time. And, as much as I'd like to take many lessons in a week I get one. Family issues are always first. My lesson and ice time are cut back for activities for my family. Because I have to focus on skating in a different way than a child, I come to the sport with a different frame of mind than a child. I take this sport seriously, but I know it's for fun and has a certain place in my life. Adults want to play in a part in their learning process, we are adults, and do come to this sport with past experiences about who we are and how we learn. A good coach will hear this and work with their student. Adults do have a "look" I guess, but bigger learning bodies do look more awkward than a tiny little child learning. What looks cute on a child looks looks sorta scary when an adult does it. Both learners have the same goal however, to learn. As a coach I would think I would look for a reliable student, works hard at skating, is self reliant, eager to push themselves, and who is eager to be part of THEIR skating. As a coach I think it's important to listen and watch your students, you can learn from your students as well as them from you.

Chico

[Debbie S]

I see another lady who tries a camel spin for a rev, and who couldn't hold her spiral elsewhere in the program, a layback (I think) that goes for 1.5 revolutions and a corkscrew spin that had maybe 3 revs and something that I think was a flip but really her feet never left the ground and the time was endless with scratchy SLOW stroking inbetween.

I was embarrassed. It's easy enough to say "oh good for you, you did it" but really I wanted to say "oh my god, where is your basic skating?" What on earth was she doing attempting a camel spin when she couldn't do a basic one foot spin? Why was she emulating a flip when her waltz jump was tiny?

I don't suppose that it occurred to you that this skater, like any skater, is in the process of learning these elements, and that the competition wasn't exactly intended to be her Olympics? Obviously I haven't seen the skater in question, but she sounds at about the American Pre-Bronze level. Well, I am a Pre-Bronze skater who has small jumps (but no flip yet), a camel that I can hold for 2 revs at most, and an unpredictable scratch spin. I'm working on these elements. They're not perfect - I wouldn't even say they are fully mastered - that's why I'm Pre-Bronze and not Bronze or Silver. And yes, my stroking can be scratchy at times and occassionally slow - and about half my practice time is devoted to stroking and moves, what you would describe as basic skating.

The thought that someone might be embarrassed for all of adult skating by watching me compete strikes me as little out of touch with reality, not to mention insulting. I, along with probably every other adult skater here, is not trying to represent all of adult skating - we're out there having fun and working to meet our goals, whatever they may be. That "embarrassing" woman you saw might surprise you at her next competition.

And I also don't suppose it occurred to you that maybe the elements you mentioned might normally be better in her practices than in competition. Wow, getting nervous and not doing as well in comp as in your practices - that never happens to anyone, does it? :roll:

[fadedstardust]

There is a lot of "open" freestyle ice during the fall/winter months here, and I have skated with adult skaters quite a bit. The first thing I notice, and I feel BAD for this, is that they get out of the way even when you don't need them to. I wish adults weren't so self-effacing, they've been made to feel as though they are in the way, and they now assume that to be the case and that makes me feel bad, as though I just shouldn't set up a jump on the same side of the ice as them so I don't make them feel like they ought to move. But I think that's very kind, to leave room for others. Rarely do I see the little kids get out of the way...they're the ones I can't stand on freestyle ice cause they just stand around in the lutz corners and talk.

However, while most adult skaters are wonderful to skate along with, the ones that really aren't are the ones that have weak basics and are doing things they're not ready for. For example, someone who cannot stop properly but who is setting up a very weirdly shaped salchow in the middle of the ice is probably going to be a hazard. It's the people that go *so* slowly into a jump that they are standing still that can be a problem, if they are in the very middle of the ice for a long period of time. The strong adult skaters are never in anyone's way because they have enough strength in a stroke to go around someone else if need be, enough security in their stops to prevent a collision, etc. Clearly, if I see someone going really slowly or practicing newly-learned 3-turns (or even jumps) on the blue lines or corners, I will go another direction and not get in their path because that's my duty as the more accomplished skater. However if someone is in the middle of the ice doing jumps along with the rest of us, then they are telling me they're proficient enough to do so, and I expect them to have enough security in their basic skills to prevent from endangering us both if a collision situation were to arise, and also to be moving fast enough that I can set up my jump 10 seconds after them and not land on the second half of their 3-turn. Yes, I absolutely agree that one must start somewhere and don't get me wrong, I know the first jumps won't be fast or perfect or whatever, but if you have strong enough basics to learn jumps, then you can do your part in preventing any accidents, and you if you're ready to jump you should be able to go fast *enough* as to not be standing still. Anyone standing still in the middle of freestyle ice will get collided into- in fact it's prohibited in most rinks. At mine you're not even supposed to go back to look at your jump tracings for risk of obstructing people's jumping paths (and it's a pain in the butt). It's not about going fast or doing perfect jumps, it's about being a proficient enough skater not to hurt anyone, starting with yourself. I've seen people who can barely balance on the ice do waltz jumps in the middle of busy freestyle sessions. It might be fun for you, but it's not fun for the 25 people who are trying not to crash into you. THAT is what the "rude" skaters complain about concerning adults, and usually the only reason they don't lump the very little kids in that complaint as well is because the little kids can sadly be expected not to know any better or realize the danger they're causing. An adult is supposed to be somewhat mature, and know their own limitations and what is safe to do in a busy environment like a freestyle session, and the ones that get talked about are the ones that choose to ignore it.

There's definitely a "tradition" aspect to it in my book, a "step by step" that starts with basics and only progresses when you are ready, but since most people don't seem to see that side of things that way at all, maybe some of you can appreciate the security aspect of it, because it really is an issue, although clearly it is a minority of skaters I am talking about. I don't actually meet many adult skaters who want to skip over basics- in fact most work their basics adamantly and I admire their dedication and attention to detail. But this is all for the sake of argument since this is the topic du jour, and I have come accross a couple of skaters like the dangerous ones I mentioned above. And no, those are not the beloved ones at my rink.

[fadedstardust]

Ah, this is the problem, then. Have you never done anything just for fun, without feeling a need to be perfect at it? How about playing a game of pick-up baseball or basketball on the playground at school? How about writing a poem, or painting a picture? It would be a sad, sad world if no one could do anything without having to make a career of it.

What was your goal in taking ballet? Was it just something to do with your free time, or were you intending to be a Dancer? I've met a few people for whom dance isn't art ot sport--it's life. . . and these folks do seem to have a hard time understanding how anyone else can separate it--how it can possibly be just a small part of a life instead of a whole life in and of itself.


Well, at the risk of making me look like a bad/weird person, no, I can't really say I've done anything in my life just for fun, I guess. I started dancing because of skating, and eventually I became good enough to do some shows as a soloist with a (smaller, aka not NYC Ballet) company and I considered making it my career only to realize I couldn't have both- so now I just do it to better my skating, if it didn't help it, I would probably quit because I'd see no point in carrying on with it if I don't do anything with it. There are other things I'm interested in such as songwriting/singing, but the reason I keep on doing it is to eventually record cd's and maybe send it around to small labels, or play in some coffeehouses- I don't care about the money, but it'd be nice to at have people liking my music. I don't think I'd be motivated to do it if the tapes were just going to sit around on my bedroom floor. I'm a goal-oriented person. Without a goal in mind that brings about some form of result, whether it be achievement (skating) or sharing of expression (music and writing), then I find no point in it. But I know that is just my personality. I guess in being this way though, while I leave room for and am trying desperately to understand other people's ways of going about things, I don't really relate/understand, as I'm sure few people can understand my being incapabale to do anything unless it's to excel at it. But I just find no joy in doing something if I don't attempt with my entire being to be the best at it. Which in NO WAY means I'll reach it. But it's an impulse stronger than me to reach for it, that's what keeps me interested in whatever I am doing. I'm not sure what part of my upbringing made me this way, but that's just the way I am.

[hankykeely]

I was embarrassed. It's easy enough to say "oh good for you, you did it" but really I wanted to say "oh my god, where is your basic skating?" What on earth was she doing attempting a camel spin when she couldn't do a basic one foot spin? Why was she emulating a flip when her waltz jump was tiny?

Sure, adults can ask to be taught these things and coaches oblige, and I'm sure that good coaches try to reinforce the basics and if adults don't listen the coach shouldn't sign the competition papers. The lady that I saw at the competition, the one thing the bunch of us in the stands wanted to know was who her coach was, not so much why the lady was skating so weakly because we thought the coach was crazy for letting the lady out there.


You've summed up my feelings from the last competition I helped run. "Embarrassing" is a word that defines lots of these ladies and men who go out there and try to compete with programs too advanced for their abilities. I don't blame them, I blame their coaches for letting them do it.

Here we go again, I am working at the Halloween Classic and I know most of the pre-bronze and bronze competitors will be out there doing the oh so familiar one-revolution camel and sit spins and straight legged, arms up to the ceiling crossovers. I call them medal collectors. There are always 2 or 3 people in a group and so everyone gets a medal, it just depends on what color it is. How sweet. What grade are these people in mentally? 4th grade?

What some of you highly defensive adult skaters don't realize, and you constantly compare yourselves with kids, is that they work years to accomplish what you all expect within months. You have delusions of grandeur if you think anyone but you enjoys watching these adults scrape around clumsily on the ice in those expensive dresses and boots that are well beyond their skating level. The audience is just hoping it will be over soon.

Kids have to earn their programs and achieve a certain level before they go out there, but adults aren't held to the same standards and just expect they can compete with very little under their belts to support them because its all for fun. The truth of the matter is, it is painful to watch.

[hankykeely]

I know a woman who skates who cannot move out of anyone's way in freestyle sessions because she is so weak, unstable and deathly afraid of falling, but sure enough is competing and doing all the "big stuff" in her program. She is dangerous in f/s sessions and people are afraid of being near her. Camel spin when she can't to a one foot or even a proper 2 foot spin. She has competed several times, for that matter and probably has more medals than the girls who have been skating since they were 5 and are on fs4 and she brags about it! She tells everyone she came in "2nd" when she really came in last place because there were only 2 people in her group. But at work, she tells people all about the skills she "has" and the medals she has won and all the shows she's been in. Gag me. She even gives people skating advice but she has no measure of proficiency in her own basic skills. So this is what bugs me!

[Hannahclear]

Fadedstardust, if you are only talking about a "few" adult skaters, then why the long missives on them? I know a "few" kids who are totally thoughtless and get in everyone's way.

If it's bash the adult skater time, I'm outtie. :lol: I don't know why I'm arguing, as I'm the type of adult skater who hangs out in the corners, so as to stay out of the way.

"And ya know, I think adults have a different perspective to skating than children and most coaches because they HAVE to. Seriously, we fit skating into our lives. Our lives don't center around skating. Think about it, most "kiddlies" skate ALOT and get many lessons in a week. Many kids are home schooled even. Coaches, for the most part, have grown up in this atmosphere. Adult skaters, at least this adult skater, moves heaven and earth to make time to skate each week. I've been known to juggle like crazy to protect my skating time. And, as much as I'd like to take many lessons in a week I get one. Family issues are always first. My lesson and ice time are cut back for activities for my family. Because I have to focus on skating in a different way than a child, I come to the sport with a different frame of mind than a child. I take this sport seriously, but I know it's for fun and has a certain place in my life. Adults want to play in a part in their learning process, we are adults, and do come to this sport with past experiences about who we are and how we learn. A good coach will hear this and work with their student."

:bow:

[Mrs Redboots]

Here we go again, I am working at the Halloween Classic and I know most of the pre-bronze and bronze competitors will be out there doing the oh so familiar one-revolution camel and sit spins and straight legged, arms up to the ceiling crossovers. I call them medal collectors. There are always 2 or 3 people in a group and so everyone gets a medal, it just depends on what color it is. How sweet. What grade are these people in mentally? 4th grade? Excuse me, but I think you are missing the point about competition here. As you say, the classes are often small enough that everybody gets a medal - but that's not why we enter. We enter because last time around the judges gave Jemima 0.2 better than they gave us, and we want to see whether all our hard work this winter has paid off, and whether the judges will put us ahead of Jemima. They probably won't, as Jemima will also have worked hard and improved every bit as much as we have!

You have delusions of grandeur if you think anyone but you enjoys watching these adults scrape around clumsily on the ice in those expensive dresses and boots that are well beyond their skating level. The audience is just hoping it will be over soon. Oh, come on, who watches adult skaters apart from their peers? The odd spouse, parent and even more occasional coach, perhaps, but other than that, nobody is interested. And that's as it should be. We aren't out there for an audience, we're out there to perform for ourselves, and for the competition. Adult competitions very seldom have kiss-n-cry areas, we just get off the ice and are putting our guards on while are marks are read out.

Kids have to earn their programs and achieve a certain level before they go out there, but adults aren't held to the same standards and just expect they can compete with very little under their belts to support them because its all for fun. The truth of the matter is, it is painful to watch.Now, I don't know where you come from, but I can assure you that here, kids are on the ice competing when they can barely skate! I know two 4-year-old girls who are to compete in this year's Winter Festival, and both can just about stroke, do a shaky spin, and maybe a tiny 3-jump. But so what? They're out there, they're having fun, and they're part of a group of older girls who are helping them with their skating. One of them, I gather, is to take her Level 1 Compulsory Dances next week - her teacher must think she has a good chance of passing.

I skate on a lot of sessions, and I see adults, in the centre, practicing their spins and jumps, but it is rare that I see an adult go flying around in russian stroking. They're happy with half speed tricks but won't put the speed into them. Can't, not won't. Be fair, if you fall over, you'll bounce back up. If I do, I'm risking a broken hip, or at best a serious attack of sciatica. And excuse me, but I was practising my Russian stroking this morning, and it scares me - er - witless, as I go far faster than I'm comfortable with. But I do it. Even though I'm probably the slowest skater around....

When you are middle-aged and fat, you don't skate fast. But why does that mean you can't skate, compete against people who are in your age group and at your level of learning, and generally have fun and keep fit? Honestly, some of you younger ones are coming over as total sports fascists, saying that your sport should be reserved for the young and athletic. Well, dears, I have news for you - you may be young and athletic now, but in 30 years' time you'll be in my position. Except, of course, that you'll be better skaters than I will ever be, since you started when you were kids, and I was in my 40s!

[NickiT]

Since there seems to be so much about embarrassing adult competitors I'd just like to point out to all non-UKers that had they seen the standard of skating at the British Adult Championships last month they may think again. Certainly in the elementary free skating classes every single skater was at a very good standard.

Also having passed my NISA level 2 elements and free tests last year (so yep I am under no delusion that I cannot do a decent sit spin as both judges complimented me on how good it was along with the jumps I had to do for the test), I have now moved up to the Level 2 and over class for our club's open competition. I can assure you that this is a very difficult class as the standard is so extremely high. Definitely no mediocre camel spins, sit spins or anything else for that matter and being the first and only adult of my coach to compete, even she was somewhat surprised to see just how high a standard the competitive adult skaters are here in the UK.

Nicki

[Mrs Redboots]

Since there seems to be so much about embarrassing adult competitors I'd just like to point out to all non-UKers that had they seen the standard of skating at the British Adult Championships last month they may think again. Certainly in the elementary free skating classes every single skater was at a very good standard.AND in the Intermediate!

and being the first and only adult of my coach to compete, even she was somewhat surprised to see just how high a standard the competitive adult skaters are here in the UK.I wish my coach would look - he hasn't even been to Bracknell for years, and probably shares some people here's view of adult competitions. But I have told him that the standard rises every year (which it does) and that he is to be just as rigorous with us as he is with kids at that level, or if we were testing rather than competing, and I think it may have sunk in.... hope so.....

Mind you, I am one of the "embarrassing" adults, and Nicki isn't! She is a very good skater indeed..... but I still have fun, even if I can neither spin nor jump (but then, I don't compete freestyle, only artistic!).

[Stormy]

Here we go again, I am working at the Halloween Classic and I know most of the pre-bronze and bronze competitors will be out there doing the oh so familiar one-revolution camel and sit spins and straight legged, arms up to the ceiling crossovers. I call them medal collectors. There are always 2 or 3 people in a group and so everyone gets a medal, it just depends on what color it is. How sweet. What grade are these people in mentally? 4th grade?

What some of you highly defensive adult skaters don't realize, and you constantly compare yourselves with kids, is that they work years to accomplish what you all expect within months. You have delusions of grandeur if you think anyone but you enjoys watching these adults scrape around clumsily on the ice in those expensive dresses and boots that are well beyond their skating level. The audience is just hoping it will be over soon.
Kids have to earn their programs and achieve a certain level before they go out there, but adults aren't held to the same standards and just expect they can compete with very little under their belts to support them because its all for fun. The truth of the matter is, it is painful to watch.

First off, why are you working the Halloween Classic if you OBVIOUSLY don't want to be there?? Do yourself and everyone else a favor and stay home!
Second, a lot of adult skaters, including myself, have already said we DON'T compare ourselves to the kids. We don't have 10 year old bodies that can whip out doubel axels and we know it. No delusious of grandeur here!
If it's THAT painful for you to watch, again, STAY HOME. What a horrible attitude. :giveup:

[Debbie S]

Thank you, Mrs. Redboots and Stormy! Your responses to hankykeely summed up exactly what I wanted to say.

hankykeely, maybe you shouldn't watch my program - Pre-Bronze. In fact, if that's the way you look at beginning adult skaters, perhaps you shouldn't watch any of the no-test or Pre-Bronze CM or FS. Because everyone at that level looks the way you described. No, we don't want to stay that way forever, but how else are we supposed to improve if we don't actually "do" the skills? According to you, I shouldn't even be practicing a camel or sit spin or any jumps b/c, God forbid, I might *only* get 1 rev on my spins the first few times I try them and maybe my loop jump might be a bit cheated. Gee, it might take me 3 or 4 months or more to get a camel spin that looks reasonable and lasts for a couple of revs and can be used in combo with a sit spin. I guess adult skaters shouldn't even bother skating, since it obviously takes us way too long to perfect our elements, right? :roll:

I've been skating for 3 years - that means that 3 years ago, I was in Basic 1 learning how to stop. There's no way I'm going to skate like someone who has been skating for 8 or 10 years or more. My coach puts me out in Pre-Bronze b/c that's my skating level. It may not be a skating level you approve of, but that's where I am, and the same applies to every skater at that level.

Edited to add that I think it's extremely unprofessional and offensive of you, hankykeely, as a volunteer at a comp that begins today, that some of us on this board are competing in, to post mean-spirited comments on the Internet about skaters and skating that you "expect" to see there. We don't need all that negativity - not that I care what you think of me, but anybody competing would feel uneasy knowing that an official with the comp is out there ready to insult them in a public forum.

[Kristin]

Gregyoshi said:
"I'm a young adult skater and I have even younger friends. They think adults are, for the most part, A JOKE! They talk behind their(our) backs. They mock them/us. They think adults are just in the way on the ice. Is it fun to be perceived this way? Others could mind their own business, but honestly the feeling I get from most other younger skaters is negative toward adults. So overall I guess my reasons for talking about this is out of concern. I wouldn't be so content just saying to yourselves that the adults can do what they want and others should butt out because the rinks and organizations out there are catering to the kids and the parents, not the adults."

My response:
Well, now we finally established where you are coming from with this whole discussion. I remember when I was a kid at the dance studio watching adult classes and wondering why the adults were doing dance classes when it was clear they were never going to be on Broadway. They moved slower than the kids and weren't nearly as flexible. But they still had fun, and even performed in the yearly show! As an Adult over the age of 30, I understand it now, and so will you and your young friends.

I am on a Synchro team for the first time in my life at the age of 31. I had a coach once who told me that she couldn't understand how an adult could ever learn Synchro and that you had to learn Synchro as a kid. My response? I changed coaches. I don't want someone who doesn't believe in me. I work hard at what I do (injuries aside).

On the flip side, I had another coach who worked with me for over 4 yrs. With his guidance, I learned salchows, loops, flips, and lutzes and all the loop combos. He got me to do camel-back sit combos and centered scratch spins. He was at the boards for most of my competitions, including 1 adult Nationals. He also got me thru many tests, including [standard] Pre-juv moves, Bronze FS, pre-pre FS, and [standard] bronze dances. If my technique was so bad as an adult, then how come I could pass all those tests in 5 yrs, all on the first try? The only reason I am no longer with this coach is because I had a life situation where I had to move so I am not in the same city. Otherwise, I am certain that he and I would be working on the axel & other higher skills. I am glad there are coaches out there who believe in their adult skaters. We can achieve if given a chance.

[Kristin]

First off, why are you working the Halloween Classic if you OBVIOUSLY don't want to be there?? Do yourself and everyone else a favor and stay home!
Second, a lot of adult skaters, including myself, have already said we DON'T compare ourselves to the kids. We don't have 10 year old bodies that can whip out doubel axels and we know it. No delusious of grandeur here!
If it's THAT painful for you to watch, again, STAY HOME. What a horrible attitude. :giveup:

AGREED!

Skating can be enjoyed at any age. If someone doesn't like to watch adult skating, then they shouldn't come watch!

[Melzorina]

Heylo peeps, sounds like a bit of a debate is going on! Well, I'm going to share my opinion aswell! I personally think adult skaters are really cool! (I'm only 15!) I like watching them have their lessons, and you can see their progression from one week to the next. It's sort of like an inspiration, like "If she can do it, then so can I!". Practise makes perfect, and nobody can do a spin straightaway, adults are more afraid of falling, as they are more delicate, shall we say? If you knew that when you fall, you had a possibility of breaking a bone that puts you out of a hobby you love for months perhaps, would you not do things in a more calm fashion?

Anyway, Adult skaters rock regardless of age and ability.

[Elsy2]

Just a few thoughts....

Don't blame my coach for letting me go out there....I'm the one who makes the decision to compete, I don't need permission. One of the luxuries of being adult is being more in charge of my life.

I didn't expect to be competitive after a few months of learning to skate. It actually took me a long, long time of several hours of skating a week to get there. Years actually. My hard work is not obvious to you, sorry about that.

I have the same responsibility as you to attempt a well balanced program. Some of the elements are mastered, some not. Elements in progress are in there to insure that I work on them in the context of a program, and not just in isolation. The decision to leave an element in or not depends on the percentage of consistency in practice. Rather than moving up a level a year like most kids, I may be at a level for several years. Maybe forever!

Just like all levels of skaters, I don't always do my best under the pressure of competition. The side by side pair spin combo I saw on TV this week at Skate America was pretty darn embarrassing........for them. A few senior level programs I saw at regionals this year were tough to watch too....

One of the best lessons I ever learned as an adult is that I can only embarrass myself. Learning this has made my life much easier.

Don't judge all adult skating by what you see at your local comps. I take my daughter to Adult Nationals whenever I can. She is a lovely skater herself, and is always amazed by the level of skating that can be seen there.

I admit I know some adults that are a bit delusional about their level of skating. They insist they have elements that are not even close. I don't understand their need to exaggerate their accomplishments. But please don't generalize that we adults are all that way. Not true.

[skaternum]

You know, I was going to pick out some of the more offensive parts of a few of the messages here and reply specifically to those parts, but I've changed my mind. I'll post a generic response to those who find crappy adult programs to be embarrasing or offensive: That is the most juvenile and rude thing I've ever read here about adult skating. You should be ashamed of yourself. Jeez Louise, so much for tolerance and understanding.

<sarcasm> I find it so painful to watch when young adults embarrass themselves by posting online.</sarcasm>

But even more to the point: We don't give a flying flip if you find it painful to watch. In fact, I'm inspired to get every crappy adult skater I know to start competing in pre-bronze!

And by the way, there is an assumption that defending some adults who attempt "out of their league" elements in a program means we think it's okay to ignore the established learning sequence or don't value mastery of the basics. That's just plain ol' faulty logic.

[Michigansk8er]

I was embarrassed. It's easy enough to say "oh good for you, you did it" but really I wanted to say "oh my god, where is your basic skating?" What on earth was she doing attempting a camel spin when she couldn't do a basic one foot spin? Why was she emulating a flip when her waltz jump was tiny?

Why? Because it's fun to try new things!!! :D

Perhaps this skater is like me. I can do a camel...........but I can't do a forward scratch. I can do a sit...........but I can't do a forward scratch. I don't find a basic one foot spin basic at all. You will never find one in my program. I do a layback from a back spin for the same reason. If I had to have a decent one foot spin before progressing, I'd have one "kind of" spin to my name..........and wouldn't be having fun with a flying camel.

I can do a huge flip (Ok, could before my surgery). My waltz jump is tiny. It will always be tiny. I don't like that jump, and for some reason it is difficult for me. A flip and lutz is much easier in my book.

We all have our strengths and weaknesses. If I had been put in a normal progression of things box, I'd still be pre-bronze. I remember a coach years ago telling me we were going to work on things above my level..........because then the things at my level would become easier. In my case, there is some truth in that.

[Figureskates]

Jeeper creepers...don't volunteer.

I volunteered at the Adult Nationals this past April at Lake Placid since my club was host (and I live 300 miles away in another state so I was there because I wanted to be there).

I watched most of the competitons as well and there were a lot of spectators for the Bronze IV men competitions. They got a lot of support and encouragement from the crowd. Sure they were slow and didn't have the biggest jumps in the world but THEY WERE HAVING FUN!!

Watching someone in their 70s doing a waltz jump and Salchow is kind of inspirational...especially to a 58 year old youngun like myself who finally has his Salchow....most of the time.

[arena_gal]

Hmmm. I was the one that said that I was embarassed at another adult. I was, because if this lady had not put in all this stuff that she obviously couldn't do (and no, it wasn't competition nerves from speaking with others who knew her), her program would have been positive, showing off the things that she COULD do. Instead, what I remember is the bad stuff and really thought her coach was mollycoddling her fantasies.

I have a solo program that has a waltz, sal, toe/toe and sal/toe, plus corkscrew and camel spin. Six elements. I can't do a sit spin and don't bother attempting the bendover fake sit. I'll put it in when I can do it to passing standard. All this is within the preliminary freeskate test and I do it well and at speed. FYI, for Mrs. Redboots, who I know is a very hard working skater and who does stroking exercises, one of coach's favorite drills is to do Russian stroking, and when flying on the outside edge, do a waltz jump. No slowing down allowed. My instructions with my coach is that if I suck, I want to know about it because I don't want to be embarassed myself.

Maybe because in my circle of skaters kids and adults, it's all about speed, more speed and confidence. Do what you're good at. Coach frowns upon the kids that try double axels to try to get the good attempt/fall mark, and won't let us put crap elements in our programs. I know that there are coaches at the kids level that stuff programs full of sort-of there elements to maybe bombard the judges and hopefully quantity beats quality, so that's where my comments come from. I'd rather see a quality program of confident elements, than what I'm seeing in adult skating at the local level. Don't get me wrong, I'd never say to anyone's face that they're terrible, I am the biggest rah-rah booster for personal achievement, but I don't know what to say when someone is on another skating planet of their own imaginative ability.

I agree, adults have to start somewhere, just like the kids and there isn't any cute factor for adults like the kids get, but one thing adults have that kids usually don't is presence and presentation on ice, and I'm getting hung up on the number of adults who are focusing on individual elements to the detriment of the overall program.

To make the equivalent point at the kid level, last year someone won a big competition with nothing but a very big huge fast axel with flow and the other kids were doing cheated doubles from a standstill, so the message was very clear from the judges as to what they wanted.

[fadedstardust]

If I had to have a decent one foot spin before progressing, I'd have one "kind of" spin to my name..........and wouldn't be having fun with a flying camel.


Or you would have had more time to spend on the crappy spin that you don't like and can't do very well because you had nothing more exciting/easy to work on, and you would have mastered it by now. That's sort of my viewpoint. Clearly what you work on is your perogative, but I don't see the point in doing all these cool spins if you can't even pass the first one. It'll screw you in the end. The scratch is the basis for the layback and the sit spin, I bet yours are very pretty but I also bet that they would be better if you mastered the dreaded scratch, and you would have had no choice but to do it if your coach had refused to teach you anything else until you had at least somewhat conquered it.

When I couldn't figure out the backspin a long time ago, I tried it for weeks, but I was sorta ashamed that I couldn't do it so I'd do 5 in a little corner and then work on stuff I looked good doing, like camels, laybacks, etc. And then I said "okay, enough is enough, the backspin is a building block and I need it" so I worked on nothing but moves in the field and backspins for a week. Backspins for 20 mins. MIF. Backspins for 20 mins, MIF. I finally got it, and after a second week of truly working on them constantly, they were what I would call good, I was secure in them, and they never bothered me again. I obviously worked on getting more revs, more centering, and faster tighening for weeks/months after that, but I could do one and it could pass the standard, and I truly believe I would have never gotten the damn thing if I hadn't worked on that and nothing else for over a week...I just wasn't getting it. But I gave myself no choice. Don't give up on the scratch just becuase it gives you trouble and you can do the funner spins. That's exactly my point about the negativity of skipping around. Stuff gets neglected/left behind.

[Michigansk8er]

Or you would have had more time to spend on the crappy spin that you don't like and can't do very well because you had nothing more exciting/easy to work on, and you would have mastered it by now.

I have worked on that spin forever. Not a lesson goes by that my coach doesn't have me work on it a bit......but thank goodness he lets me work on the other spins too. My other spins are centered and have good speed (for a 50 year old). My layback is from a back scratch, because backspins are more natural for me. The scratch is just one of those things that doesn't work for me. I'm finally to the point where I don't care to waste anymore time or money on it. Believe me, if my coach refused to teach me anything else until I had a beautiful scratch, he would have lost me and my interest a long time ago. He was wise enough to see that there might be some spinning potential in me if he tried a different angle. He was right on. I think we all learn differently, and have different abilities. A good coach realizes this.

I'm probably past competing, at this stage of the game. Now I can just go out and play.

Oh, and my scratch is passing standard..........it will just never be good or comfortable for me.

[skaterinjapan]

It seems to me like a lot of posts on this thread are based on the assumption that everybody wants to progress in the same general fashion to higher skating levels.

While there are many skaters, both child and adult, who want to learn and master every element, there are also many skaters who are less concerned with, or perhaps unable to, master every skill. For a lot of us, learning a bunch of decent skills "out of order" is a lot more satisfying than struggling day-after-day with only one element because other skills are supposedly based on other elements.

Prior to taking my pre-preliminary MIF as a teenager, my coach taught me both forward and back brackets. I couldn't do all of my back 3-turns cleanly, but I could do brackets, which I ironically thought were a lot easier and a lot more fun! Learning them, in turn, gave me a lot of confidence which then improved my back 3s.

The same thing happens with children skaters. Who hasn't seen a no-test 7-year-old who can do axels despite having choppy edges? All it means is that the skater is still in the process of learning, as most of us are. The patterns and skills that work for some skaters don't work for others. But if the skater is enjoying the skating experience (even if it means low scores and "embarrassing" others at skating competitions), I'm not entirely certain that there's anything wrong with it.

[fadedstardust]

Oh, and my scratch is passing standard..........it will just never be good or comfortable for me.

But if it is at passing standard then I take it back- I never said you shouldn't work on something until you've totally mastered it- that would indeed be horribly counterproductive. And I'm sorry that spin is giving you so much trouble- ironically I hate backspins so I guess our situations are flip-flopped, haha. A backspin-layback must be pretty hard though, and uncommon, so you've definitely got a skill I have never seen anyone do, and I've seen a lot of spins. And that rocks. Actually I'm not sure that I could do a backspin-layback sequence. More power to you. I love forward scratches though, I definitely don't claim to be better than your coach or in any position to help over the internet but, would you care to say what you are having trouble with in the scratch? I know it's not a big deal but there must be some way it could be more comfortable for you, or some word of advice that hasn't been said?

[batikat]

I think it's kinda sad Gregyoshi that you asked for comments from adult skaters but then decided you'd back out of the debate because you werent getting answers you liked. I think the posts you objected to are exactly the ones you should be taking most note of because they show how your attitude is coming across to many of the adult skaters on here. (It may not be what you really mean or feel but you are free to point that out, nicely). To me that says you would not be very successful teaching adults, at the current time, with those attitudes, because as adult skaters I think most of us would like first and foremost from our coaches, some respect - we have chosen to skate for whatever reason and we are paying you to teach us. If you are not willing to work with us - and that means finding out if we want to skate seriously or if it's just fun, whether we want to compete or take part in the club shows - because we don't fit your idea of what a skater should be, then fine - don't teach adults. The difference between most kid skaters and most adult skaters is that the kid skaters all start off dreaming that they can make the Olympics; adult skaters know that they never will, so they dont have the same pressure on them to perform to the same level of skill.

However a great many adults do like to compete. At the adult level it is generally a much more laid back affair and can be as much about socialising with like minded indidviduals as skating. That's not to say some don't take it extremely seriously and they are generally the ones that win the medals.

For my part I started skating at age 38 - why? Because I'd always wanted to and never had the opportunity previously. I had no intentions of competing originally but was pushed into it by a fellow adult. My first experience was pretty horrible - a group of 18 at dance levels up to level 5 (I had no tests at this point). I came 15th. I learnt that I didn't like compulsory dance very much and I had a long way to go. At the same time my coach gave me programmes for Free dance and original dance and I was much better at these. Although in the UK there is no test track for original dance til you've done 3 levels of variation dances the third of which is based on a level 5 CD, I have since competed original dance and Free dance and been quite successful. This is my strength in skating and I will play to it where I can.

As a child I may not have had the freedom to do that, as it doesn't fit the structure. If my coach had insisted on me being able to do level 5 CD's to passing standard before trying an OD I would have given up skating long ago.

I think it is hard for some of those skaters here who have come into skating as children and are still in the late teens/young adults category to really appreciate how different it is to learn as an adult - and it may surprise you to know that learning anything new as an adult, is very different from learning it as a child. And yes this applies to ballet and gymnastics and to such things as learning a foreign language. For example in skating, I see lots of kids whose coaches will show them a move - let's say a jump - and the kid will simply copy it and eventually they get it right. Now for an adult it may make it easier if the coach explains each bit separately, talks about where to put the arms, where the body weight is and why this helps, right at the beginning. The young kids probably wouldn't need it and wouldn't understand it anyway. Also if a kid flings themselves at a jump and falls, it doesn't matter, whilst for adults falling has consequences - if I break my arm, all family activies stop (not just mine) - who will cook , clean, drive, work? The approach is different but the goal is the same (and often doing a competition concentrates the mind wonderfully so why not put in those barely there skills if you want - may not make much impression this time but by next year they might be great).

As for harder skills being more risky - in my experience those adults who've broken things have been doing very basic things when they broke them, not jumps at all.

The adult perspective is different and until you can appreciate that, rather than (apparently) berating them for not following exactly the kids structure you may find it difficult to work with adults as a coach. You took the right steps in asking us, but do not appear to be willing to adjust your perception of what a skater is, to accommodate adults with all their individualities.

[Mel On Ice]

I'd like to commend fadedstardust for being as honest as she has been, and yes, open-minded in the discussion. She has offered some good advice and interesting points of view. :)

[gregyoshi]

[QUOTE=batikat]I think it's kinda sad Gregyoshi that you asked for comments from adult skaters but then decided you'd back out of the debate because you werent getting answers you liked. I think the posts you objected to are exactly the ones you should be taking most note of because they show how your attitude is coming across to many of the adult skaters on here. </quote>

I "backed out" of the debate after I responded about 4 times with my opinions and then 2 snotty, rude people told me to stop responding. Flo, ya out there? I felt like they were personally attacking me when I never once accused anyone here of doing anything wrong or making it personal or about them specifically. I told you guys what I have observed. You made assumptions about me, read between the lines and flat out got ugly. Nice bunch ya got here. You say adult skaters are supportive of each other and such a nice bunch. Bullcrap. You'll kick each other in the teeth, given a tiny chance.

You should be able to voice your opinions in general and I think its cool but telling someone to shut up and "chill" because you can't stand hearing their side of the story is childish and cowardly. It is also very condescending, especially when they aren't even moderators.

There have been several other people posting on my thread who have been extremely objectionable and rude but nobody has told them to shut up. What's up with that?

I don't think anyone is benefiting from this debate anymore and that it is bringing out hatefulness in people. I even decided this site isn't really worth my time due to the nasty few who sour the whole place. Keep your blinders on, shut out people who are just trying to learn and what you'll have is a conversation with yourself. Sounds like a boring forum to me.

Good luck with your skating. I'll not let the door hit me on the *** when I leave.

[Hannahclear]

Wow, impressed with yourself much? :roll:

[Melzorina]

How long have you been waiting to say that to someone?

[batikat]

You say adult skaters are supportive of each other and such a nice bunch. Bullcrap. You'll kick each other in the teeth, given a tiny chance.


Obviously you've not met the same adult skaters most of us have - yes the odd ones like that are out there - but it's not nearly so prevalent as in the kid skating world.


Keep your blinders on, shut out people who are just trying to learn and what you'll have is a conversation with yourself. Sounds like a boring forum to me.

Good luck with your skating. I'll not let the door hit me on the *** when I leave.


Reading through the posts, it seemed to me that you might just be the one with the blinders on. If you seriously are interested in teaching adults then you seriously need to know why we dislike some of the attitudes that came across in your posts but even more those in the posts of hankykeely and arena gal. From this last post we can assume you are not really interested in teaching adults - just in ruffling feathers. I don't see anything rude in someone suggesting you chill out a bit. You are free to leave and those of us who enjoy this forum will not miss your attitude at all.

However if you genuinely want to learn from those of us who have the experience in this i.e. the adult skaters, then you need to learn to accept that some of what you said and lots of what hankykeely and arena gal said may have caused offence. I didn't sense any hatred on any side - ever think you might be overreacting???

[phillyskater]

Here we go again, I am working at the Halloween Classic...

You're working at the Halloween Classic?? Not on my watch!! Who are you?

phillyskater

[skaternum]

Nice bunch ya got here. You say adult skaters are supportive of each other and such a nice bunch. Bullcrap. You'll kick each other in the teeth, given a tiny chance.
When last we heard, you do not qualify as an adult (either by age or maturity in this discussion).

[skaternum]

You're working at the Halloween Classic?? Not on my watch you're not!! Who are you?
Well said, phillyskater. :bow: We certainly don't need *that* kind of attitude around an adult competition, thankyouverymuch.

[fadedstardust]

I'd like to commend fadedstardust for being as honest as she has been, and yes, open-minded in the discussion. She has offered some good advice and interesting points of view. :)

Thank you. I love these discussions, they provide me with insight I wouldn't get elsewhere. I appreciate everyone remained patient with me, as well. :)

Meanwhile, Greyyoshi, wow. All I wanna say, and I've agreed with SOME of the less inflammatory things you've said but, all I wonder is WHY ON EARTH you are working an adult competition (poor people, are you really that desperate for money/free ice time, or just a hypocrite and enjoy pretending to help when really you'll just undermine everyone with your negative- if unspoken- attitude?) And even more, why would you even, in the most fleeting of moments, for one second, consider teaching adult skaters? You very clearly have a hatred towards them. Actually, I think, even though you're probably around my age (I'm 19), that you have a hell of a lot of growing to do before you consinder teaching anyone, because you truly handle people's opposing views in a terrible way, and I can't imagine, even if you were to teach younger skaters, the arguments between you and the parents who may not bow down on everything you say. Let's not even get started on adult skaters, why would you torture them (and yourself, apparently) and take their money if this is what you think of them? You're not going to change adult skating so it fits your view of it. This isn't mean to be offensive to you but seriously, do everyone a favor and go do some growing up before trying to teach anyone anything. No one's even said anything bad about you. Not halfway as bad as what you said about them- and people here ARE competing at the competition you trashed and will be at, and now they have to look over their backs for a snickering ill-wisher. That's terrible. I don't get you. I guess I don't have to.

[arena_gal]

]However a great many adults do like to compete. At the adult level it is generally a much more laid back affair and can be as much about socialising with like minded indidviduals as skating. That's not to say some don't take it extremely seriously and they are generally the ones that win the medals.


This is maybe where I'm ruffling feathers. I'm in Canada and there really isn't an adult social track. If you're serious about competing, you compete in the regular Starskate categories with the kids. It's definitely not about socializing, and the standards are the same as for the kids.

I don't know a lot of coaches that will let adults go out in that level of competition without training them, and polishing the program to show the skater to the best light and pushing the skater to get the jumps and reworking the basics if they're not properly learned. So when we see a skater who is having a good time but hopelessly over her head, we wonder what kind of coach she has. This is the message I have for gregyoshi, that if you're coaching adults, although the adult might be telling you what to do, and paying you for the privilege, the rest of the coaching community is watching.

[Figureskates]

Gregyoshi, obviously you have never been to an Adult Nationals. The way the adults root each other on is so uplifting.

It was my first. I was going to compete but did not complete my test for qualifications in Bronze due to a nasty bout with gallstones. I volunteered instead and I had an absolute blast cheering on adult skaters i already knew and making new friends.

[NCSkater02]

She tells everyone she came in "2nd" when she really came in last place because there were only 2 people in her group.

I earned a couple of medals this summer in this fashion. I tell people that I won the silver, then when they oohh and aahh, I make it very clear that there were only two of us. :lol:

Who really cares how many completed? The point is that I completed. Placement isn't as important to me as doing it. It's proving to me that I can do it.

And, my coach put a half lutz in my program. I couldn't do one then--it was on the inside edge. She wanted me to learn the steps. Last month, we started working on the outside edge. If I hadn't been fairly comfortable with what I had already learned, I'd've (!) really struggled to learn it. As it was, it felt weird, but I picked it up fairly quickly. No, it's not as nice as MK or SC, but it's a lutz, of a fashion.

I skate pre-bronze (untested) I am working on jumps, spins, and edgework. I try to get in one moves session each week, but since I have to work for a living, it's hard to get in more than 3-4 hours each week, so I will progress slowly. It's better than sitting on my couch and getting older. ;)

[batikat]

This is maybe where I'm ruffling feathers. I'm in Canada and there really isn't an adult social track. If you're serious about competing, you compete in the regular Starskate categories with the kids. It's definitely not about socializing, and the standards are the same as for the kids.
.

I don't think there is an adult 'social' track anywhere is there? I know America has an adult testing track but how that compares to the kids track beyond having fewer levels and elements in a different order I dont' know.

Here in the UK we take exactly the same tests as the kids to the same standards and compete at the appropriate level. We are lucky to have a number of adult only comps which are generally much more fun to compete and be involved in than the kids comps (I have two kids who have competed at national level). Sometimes there is no choice but to compete with higher levels when numbers are small but I personally find competing helps me to achieve my goals in skating and is a personal achievement for someone who has always been quite shy to face my fears and get out there and perform. You may think my performance is embarrassing but for me it is a personal triumph when I skate well in competition no matter where I place. This is something I don't think any child skater can ever fully understand but we do appreciate it when you try.

As an adult one has the freedom to choose whether to be deadly serious and competitive in training and competitions or to enjoy also the social side - which does not necessarily make one less competitive. Yes there are adults out there who have delusions of their capabilities but probably no more or less so than the skatemom who thinks her kid is going to the next Olympics when you can see they are struggling with the basics. Some may also choose to go to competitions against their coaches advice. I personally wouldn't but as an adult you are responsible for yourself.

[Michigansk8er]

I love forward scratches though, I definitely don't claim to be better than your coach or in any position to help over the internet but, would you care to say what you are having trouble with in the scratch?

In the words of my coach.........I should apply for frequent flier points. 9 times out of 10 it travels to Mars and back. I can easily center a forward sit or camel........but not a scratch. At this stage of the game, I no longer feel it's important. I don't have a forward scratch in my program, and really don't see the need for one. Heck, I may never have a program again. Time will tell with that one. I'm definitely an oddball. I LOVE a back scratch.

I actually tried a back layback because the forward one was making me too dizzy. I've never had a dizzy problem on the back one. I've no clue what the difference is and why one makes me sick and the other one doesn't. I won't be doing laybacks anymore anyhow. My recent back surgery ended that one. I've pretty much retired to playing around with freestyle. I'm now learning dance (which is not playing around).

[gregyoshi]

Thank you. I love these discussions, they provide me with insight I wouldn't get elsewhere. I appreciate everyone remained patient with me, as well. :)

Meanwhile, Greyyoshi, wow. All I wanna say, and I've agreed with SOME of the less inflammatory things you've said but, all I wonder is WHY ON EARTH you are working an adult competition (poor people, are you really that desperate for money/free ice time, or just a hypocrite and enjoy pretending to help when really you'll just undermine everyone with your negative- if unspoken- attitude?) And even more, why would you even, in the most fleeting of moments, for one second, consider teaching adult skaters? You very clearly have a hatred towards them. Actually, I think, even though you're probably around my age (I'm 19), that you have a hell of a lot of growing to do before you consinder teaching anyone, because you truly handle people's opposing views in a terrible way, and I can't imagine, even if you were to teach younger skaters, the arguments between you and the parents who may not bow down on everything you say. Let's not even get started on adult skaters, why would you torture them (and yourself, apparently) and take their money if this is what you think of them? You're not going to change adult skating so it fits your view of it. This isn't mean to be offensive to you but seriously, do everyone a favor and go do some growing up before trying to teach anyone anything. No one's even said anything bad about you. Not halfway as bad as what you said about them- and people here ARE competing at the competition you trashed and will be at, and now they have to look over their backs for a snickering ill-wisher. That's terrible. I don't get you. I guess I don't have to.


I never said I was working at any competition. Are you bananas? I said I support those adults I know who compete. Who the heck are you talking about?

READ the posts before you go bashing people. You must be confused.

This is pathetic. Lets all gang up on the grego now. Does this make you feel good? You guys are the ones with the problems. I haven't said half the garbage you're claiming and you're all smacking me because I'm young. What was I thinking ever coming here and trying to talk to a bunch of weekend, middle aged athletes.

[Hannahclear]

I'm 24. :P

[batikat]

I never said I was working at any competition. Are you bananas? I said I support those adults I know who compete. Who the heck are you talking about?

READ the posts before you go bashing people. You must be confused.

This is pathetic. Lets all gang up on the grego now. Does this make you feel good? You guys are the ones with the problems. I haven't said half the garbage you're claiming and you're all smacking me because I'm young. What was I thinking ever coming here and trying to talk to a bunch of weekend, middle aged athletes.


Indeed I think faded stardust may have got you confused with hankykeely over the competitions helping issue. However I wonder what your excuse is for such a mean-spirited, charmless and 'offensive to every adult skater' post, when the majority of us here have actually tried to answer your orignal and further questions honestly and helpfully.

[flippet]

I never said I was working at any competition. Are you bananas? I said I support those adults I know who compete. Who the heck are you talking about?

READ the posts before you go bashing people. You must be confused.

This is pathetic. Lets all gang up on the grego now. Does this make you feel good? You guys are the ones with the problems. I haven't said half the garbage you're claiming and you're all smacking me because I'm young. What was I thinking ever coming here and trying to talk to a bunch of weekend, middle aged athletes. fadedstardust accidentally confused your posts with hankykeely's post--or, she simply forgot to change the name when she began talking about that post. It's obvious that it doesn't pertain to you, and if you had bothered to read the thread, you'd probably have figured that out.

Gee...you are beginning to sound awfully familiar to me. Have we met before? Four or five times, perhaps? You're starting to sound awfully like a troll I used to know. Especially with the difference between

I just don't understand and as a future coach (wannabe) I just want to learn what motivates people this direction. Thoughts?
and

What was I thinking ever coming here and trying to talk to a bunch of weekend, middle aged athletes.
It's obvious that you have no respect for adult skaters, and have no desire to gain any. That first post was by a troll in sheep's clothing.

[fadedstardust]

No no, it was my mistake- I apologize for getting you confused, Gregyoshi. I would like to know Hankkeely's answer to why he/she is working Halloween classic, though. And it doesn't make the stuff you (greg) said about adults when you're claiming you just want to learn for later coaching purposes any better, either.

Meanwhile, I asked how old you were and you didn't answer, but I just turned 19, and while that may be getting old for a Novice (I'm taking the year off comp and moving up sometime in the coming months, though) I'm not middle aged. I guess I'm not the only one who isn't paying attention. I say we get back to constructive conversation. Or start one, I'm not sure anything's been all that constructive. So, I have a question: if you are genuinely trying to learn about adult skating so you can coach in that department later, then why aren't you listening/accepting anything they say? You wanted to learn about adult skating, people are answering you with their thoughts and motives, and all you really ought to be doing is taking it in (maybe question further if you need to, but respectfully) and weighing out whether or not it sounds like something you want to do. If it doesn't, move on. There's plenty of young kids you could coach, once you lose the 'tude and quick temper. I'm not "ganging up" on you, I'm discussing, because it's been a boringgggg end of the week and you brought up an interesting thread. So calm down! You seem so angry for just no reason. :(

[backspin]

What was I thinking ever coming here and trying to talk to a bunch of weekend, middle aged athletes.

I just turned 37. I have one more silver dance to go, standard track, & am ready to test my juvenile moves, having had a total of ONE lesson on them. My coach is a former Olympian & world medalist, and I will dare to say that I could skate circles around you. I've never posted like this before, but you crossed a line here. How dare you.

[Figureskates]

Middle aged athlete?

Yup. At 58 I am damn proud of it.

Probably could skate circles around you as well, but probably not as fast, or graceful as Backspin :bow: :bow: :bow:

[Chico]

gregyoshi,

You might surpass me skating but I surpass you in attitude. As do most of my fellow adult skaters here. AND, for your information this old fart skater did land her double loop on one foot recently. Being an adult skater doesn't make me uncapable. Maybe you should think about your opinion or at the least your attitude.

[TashaKat]

gregyoshi,

You might surpass me skating but I surpass you in attitude. As do most of my fellow adult skaters here. AND, for your information this old fart skater did land her double loop on one foot recently. Being an adult skater doesn't make me uncapable. Maybe you should think about your opinion or at the least your attitude.

Well said Chico!

As others have said there are all types and levels of adult skaters just like there are all types and levels of kids!

You whine about people bashing you but the title of your post was offensive as have a lot of your comments. What's the problem with people putting their honest opinions?

For the record a lot of adults (me included) may be middle aged but we very often skate more often than just at the weekend! If you can't put your point across without being disrespectful then you're probably right to butt out ......

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v146/TashaKat/Back_Pick-Up__Spiral.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v146/TashaKat/Spiral_Lift.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v146/TashaKat/Death_Spiral_PB.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v146/TashaKat/Hydroblade.gif

Middle aged athletes who skate between 5 and 7 MORNINGS (aka before work) a week!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v146/TashaKat/Lift.bmp

Middle aged athletes getting it wrong and *shock, horror* managing to get up and carry on without needing hip replacements!

[Mrs Redboots]

What was I thinking ever coming here and trying to talk to a bunch of weekend, middle aged athletes.I wish I knew! And I wish I knew where you got the "weekend" from - I train at least 5 times a week, even if I am fat and middle-aged and a crap skater. And only ever win medals when there are 3 or fewer in my group (actually, that's not quite true - I do sometimes win Interpretive classes even against better skaters). I'm never going to be good - I seriously doubt I'll ever be able to compete above pre-Bronze - but who cares? I don't. I thoroughly enjoy what I do, I love the small amount of progress I do make, I love pushing the envelope a bit. Well, a little bit....

And most of us adults here are like that.

[Melzorina]

What was I thinking ever coming here and trying to talk to a bunch of weekend, middle aged athletes.

I'm fifteen, and that's a horrible thing to say. Most adults train during the week and put as much effort into it as anyone could!

[skateflo]

After a few more posts from the original poster, I too began to feel a vague familiarity of a troll on another message thread (may not have been on this web site.)

But I will repeat that this thread did generate a lot of very thoughtful discussion and showed how varied is the world of adult skating. All of the adult skaters should be proud of their sincereity in sharing their thoughts, their experiences, their love of skating and their willingness to help educate. I know I learned a lot and am proud of all of you.

This topic could make a fabulous article - much better than some of the ones done on a national level (local articles always seem to be more personal, in-depth and convey the joy of skating as an adult.)

I am glad to be an adult skater regardless of the fact that I didn't start until I was 46, I don't test or compete, but I take pride in what I have accomplished over the years!

[2salch0w]

Interesting discussion -- it didn't have to get ugly, but no surprise that it did.

I agree with some of Greg's original premise. We've all watched adults perform elements that are such a weak imitation of the actual skill that you have to wince. It takes away from the good stuff -- their overall performance, their musical interpretation, the elements they do well. And as Greg says, we may push ourselves too hard to stick in the things we can't really do correctly yet.

But so do the kids, as some of you have pointed out. May I be so bold to suggest one, maybe two, "out of reach elements" per program. It's great to have a stretch goal, but if the whole program is full of stuff you have 50/50 success with in practice, then yikes! That can't be fun for you, either. In my singles I have the Axel ... sometimes it's there, sometimes it's not. In pairs it was the death spiral. This is the equivalent of a top skater putting in a quad that they aren't solid on yet. But the rest of the program should be stuff in the 90% range. Not that that means you won't blow it, of course. :)

With all that said, I *still* have nothing but respect for anyone that gets out there and competes and the work that goes into these programs. I don't blame people for deviating from the usual learning progression, after all, many of us don't have the practice time we'd like and when we do get on the ice, we want to do the stuff that is FUN to do. And that should be OK ...

Tim

[hankykeely]

**Snort**Look how long this thread is! Ya'll have too much time on your hands if you keep trying to outdo each other with pithy remarks to the O.P. Give it a rest ladies!

I think you ought to be skating instead of coming here to blather on and on and on like you have been. Not much sandbagging going on at Ice Works, lol.

[Mrs Redboots]

My dear hankykeely, do feel free to show us where it says you have to read this thread? And I don't suppose even you are physically able to skate 24/7.

Many people posting on it have made some very interesting points and I, for one, have been enjoying reading it, except for those places where it has been spoilt by posters who come across as very ill-bred and unpleasant people. And, I regret to say, you come across as one of them.

[slusher]

It's great to have a stretch goal, but if the whole program is full of stuff you have 50/50 success with in practice, then yikes! That can't be fun for you, either.
Tim
I wasn't going to read this but I did. I'm thinking that I was a misguided adult that everyone was talking about. What am I doing in my 40's taking skating lessons and trying to pass a few dances? I am not one of the skaters that posted all through this thread about how they work hard and train and can do all these elements, but choose not to do certain things. I don't have the choice of doing a camel over a scratch because I can't really do either. I would be the skater that would be trying a one revolution camel spin and looking ugly at it. I know it's bad. I know I could put it in a program to get some sort of credit for it but I would be mortified. That's why I don't compete because I can't spin although I've been pushed to do so by friends because I can jump. Although they'd all come out and cheer for me, I've still got to be the person out there on the ice doing a program. I've never even had the nerve to ask my coach about competing. I know a lady that can't jump and persists on competing at pre-pre-pre-pre something, she walks through all her jumps, and she has no lack of self confidence about it, but I can't do that, it would not be fun for me whatsoever.

[Mrs Redboots]

I am not one of the skaters that posted all through this thread about how they work hard and train and can do all these elements, but choose not to do certain things.Some of us work hard and train hard and still can't do half these elements - like me, for instance! But then, it's for that reason I don't do freestyle - with a tiny 3-jump and an unreliable upright spin, I prefer to do artistic where these elements are not required! Or dance, ditto. Although spins are required in solo free dance now, alas....

But the joy of being an adult skater is that you absolutely don't have to compete or test unless you want to. Absolutely no pressure! (Although, mind you, I did rather pressure my husband into competing the first time - and he now enjoys it! Although he does pick and choose what, if anything, he does solo).

[danibellerika]

I think this thread has run its course.