AN Meeting?

[skateflo]

Can anyone report on what was discussed at the AN Adult Skating Committee general meeting that was supposed to happen Thurs eve??

[tazsk8s]

Just bumping this up. I was wondering too.

[flo]

Hi,
I do have an agenda...somewhere, and will try to find it.
Highlights I remember:

There is a great deal of work being done to bring adult skating to the international scene. Rhea Schwartz (first adult chair) and Phyllis Howard (and others) are working on an ISU adult competition. The first event will be rough - a stepping stone and point of growth, just as the first AN was, but it is in the works!

18-25 year old participation. The committee wantes to know what level of interest there is in the 18-25 year old age group, and the possibility of adding this to AN. However, if this is added, something must go, as the event is continually growing. One suggestion was that all events would qualify through sectionals, thus reducing the number at AN.

Moves - much discussion. It's obvious that there needs to be a revision of the current moves structure. There was talk of a revision of the moves elements within the levels.

Survey - Please fill it out and send in your comments!

Then I had to leave to go to an event!

[jenlyon60]

Will the survey be made available to us adult skaters that didn't attend AN who might want to contribute our thoughts and opinions?

[flo]

Hi,
They are working on making it available on-line so more skaters have the opportunity to comment.

[Michigansk8er]

I sure hope they don't make all events qualifying. AN is also a great social event for adults............and a way that we can meet each other. 100% qualifying would be taking something away that makes AN unique to us. I'm not sure what the answer is for the 18-24 year olds, but they do have the collegiate option right now. I can see possibly restructuring the age groups, and adding 21 years old and up, but I really think 18-20 is too young. Perhaps they could limit starts if it is growing too big? Such as only one individual event per skater (so you would have to chose between interp or singles........and not allow those in qualifying to enter open events?). Just some ideas. What are others thinking? First mandatory moves, and now these plans to promote adult skating..........but does it really? Something to think about, I guess.

[Terri C]

My coach and I were talking tonight about AN and the 18-24 issue. If they can have Young Adult categories, then open the event up to the Pre Bronze freeskaters as well as everyone else!! It would only require one additional day of competition and most competitors are showing up on Monday of AN week anyway, so what's the difference?
Flo, BTW, can coaches take the survey too? If so, please let me know and I'll have my coach fill one out when they get online!

[flo]

Hi,
Coaches can take the survey as long as they are a USFSA member. Although it may be "just one more day" it's also one more day of judges, 70+ people who will need practice ice.....

[sk8pics]

"One more day" is worth it for the young adult skaters but not for the pre-bronze skaters? Is that one more indication of a move towards including adults who skated as kids but excluding adults who started as adults? I hope not.

[Spreadeagle]

"One more day" is worth it for the young adult skaters but not for the pre-bronze skaters? Is that one more indication of a move towards including adults who skated as kids but excluding adults who started as adults? I hope not.

I think it's more of an indication of how USFSA does national events. They don't offer beginner levels at any nationals. For standard track skating, at Junior nationals juvenile is the lowest level offered, no pre-pre, pre or pre-juv. At synchro nationals, it's also juvenile--no preliminary or intro teams compete at nationals. I think this is fair. Competing at the national level should be an honor and something to strive for.

[w.w.west]

It is not an indication of exclusion. Lowering the age to 21 would not require an extra day of competition. However, adding pre-bronze would. There is always more than meets the eye. This is no exception. Adding a whole new category plus age classes is more complicated than one might think.

[sk8pics]

w.w. west -- I didn't say it wasn't complicated, I'm sure it is. And if lowering the age results in more categories, then it would seem like additional events would be held, and therefore more time would be required. Adding pre-bronze would add 4 more events (Class I, II, etc.), right? How many more events would be added with a lower age limit? Wouldn't it be at least one for each level of competition? I suppose the interpretive events are already crowded, but I'd at least like to see pre-bronze skaters able to skate interpretive if they wanted to. Sure, they might not be competitive, but it would allow them to get their feet wet at national competition.

I understand perfectly well that these things are complicated. But I do see, from personal observation as well as comments from others on line, an increasing emphasis on adults who skated, sometimes at a high level, as a child. There was quite a discussion recently on this board about the difference between someone who skated as a child and someone who did not. I would hate to see adults who started skating as an adult have fewer opportunities.

Spreadeagle -- I understand, and maybe agree with, the idea that nationals should be for skaters at a higher level of achievement, but according to the logic of no pre-pre, no pre, and no pre-juv, does that mean only gold skaters should be at nationals? And what about people having passed their pre-bronze dance tests being allowed to compete in interpretive? I think that's a great idea, but they would be left out according to this logic as well.

I know that none of this is simple. But as many people have commented on many different threads and boards, adult skating is not standard track skating, and perhaps the rules should reflect that. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

[flo]

Hi,
I believe the Adult Nationals event does reflect the adult program. There is just a limit to what the events can include and still offer a quality competition. If events are added, then something has to go. As it is the interpretive event no longer has final rounds. I'm not in favor of adding anything that could not be well supported.

[blue111moon]

The way I understood it, they aren't talking about restructuring all the age groups. The idea I heard was to expand Age Group 1 to include skaters aged 21 to 35 for competitions, and to allow skaters aged 18 and up to take Adult Tests.

[sk8pics]

Oh, thanks blue111moon. But yikes, I would hate to be a 30 or 35 year old skater competing against a 21 year old in a free skating event! That doesn't sound like a very fair age grouping to me. Fortunately ;) I won't have to worry about being in that group. Except of course in smaller competitions where there are no age groups, and then I'd be a (soon to be) class III skater skating against a 21 year old. I don't think I'd like that too much, either! I don't worry about medals (good thing, too) but I would hate it to look like there is such a huge gap between my own skating and the other competitors, that I didn't even belong there.

Flo- I agree with you about needing to be able to manage the size, but I'm confused by people writing about declining numbers of starts, in contrast to what you are saying. And didn't someone say that there were fewer groups this year in bronze? So are some areas declining and others growing?

Pat

[dcden]

I thought the proposal was to make the YA category be ages 21-26, with Class I becoming 27-35. Or was it 21-25 & 26-35 respectively? I don't remember exactly, but I don't think the proposal was going to combine YA and Class I into one category. Fifteen years would be a pretty large age class, especially in the lower age ranges.

[jenlyon60]

One of the Pro-Am Dance competitions does that...

Class I is 17 and under
Class II is 18-35
Class III is 36-49
Class IV is 50 and over

Which makes it difficult for several folks... the pre-growth spurt pre-teens who have to compete against 17 year olds, the 35 year olds competing against 18 year olds, and the upper 40s competing against the mid 30somethings.

The problem with deciding cut-offs age groupings is that very thing. Someone (several someones) will always feel that they got the short end of the stick.

Re changing the "when can one take Adult tests", I am strongly against lowering the age barrier any further. The problem is that the upper teens have no sensible competition track on the "standard track" side, and in fact, lower level upper teens often face worse situations at events than adult-onset skaters competing against "skated as a kid" skaters. Imagine being an 18 or 19 year old PreJuv skater at a non-qualifying competition, skating against a 7 or 8 year old kid half your height.

[skaternum]

The printed handout that was given to attendees at the Adult Skating committee meeting had the following as suggested age classes for competition:

Class I = 21-26
Class II = 27-35
Class III = 36-45
Class IV = 46-55
Class V = 55 and over

Since we're giving opinions, I'll throw mine out. I don't think the competition age should be lowered to 21. And I really don't think we should have a totally different age for testing. (Too confusing -- pick 1 age and stick with it.)

[edited to correct a typo]

[Michigansk8er]

I wonder how many 21-24 year olds would even be interested. If they were grandfathered into an adult level, I can see it..............but to have to retest up to their competition level? I understand wanting to keep skaters on the ice (and isn't this what this is really about?), and filling that gap between collegiate and adult, but I don't even think the numbers are there initially. It's not like the skaters in this age group are flocking to compete in the young adult category that we are currently seeing at some competitions. I would think that most 21-24 year olds are starting careers, marriages, etc, and therefore don't have the extra money for skating anyway. I'd hate to take away what we currently have (which is GREAT). My vote will probably be to leave things alone. I've definitely got to give this survey some thought.........some quick thought.

[dani]

Reading between the lines, it sounded like the idea is to combine the collegiate and adult skating camps. They specifically mentioned combining the nationals due to the new budget constraints they are expecting.

[Michigansk8er]

Reading between the lines, it sounded like the idea is to combine the collegiate and adult skating camps. They specifically mentioned combining the nationals due to the new budget constraints they are expecting.

Ugh! I'm sure the collegiate clubs want to do their thing too. I wonder if they know what's going on?

[daisies]

Since we're giving opinions, I'll throw mine out. I don't think the competition age should be lowered to 21. And I really don't think we should have a totally different age for testing. (Too confusing -- pick 1 age and stick with it.)

There are several reasons there would be a lower age for testing. First, it allows skaters time to test before they start competing. If the age is the same to test and compete, most skaters wouldn't be able to just turn 25 and start competing. Most would have to take tests, some might perhaps have to take all the way up to their Gold, and so we're talking 8 tests: pre-Bronze MIF and FS, Bronze MIF and FS, Silver MIF and FS and Gold MIF and FS. If they were allowed to at least start testing at a younger age, they'd have time to get all those tests in before starting to compete. Some people complain about sandbaggers; well, by keeping the age for testing and competing the same, we're basically inviting sandbagging, with skaters being able to say, "Yeah, I know I should be in gold, but I only had time to test through Bronze, so here I am!"

Another reason to lower the age overall and even more for testing is so that we can retain a lot of skaters who are not competitive in the standard track. You'll see a lot of skaters in their late-teens in standard track competitions who do not fare very well in the placements; it's hard for them to compete with the "little ones." By allowing them to start testing adult at 18, and compete at 21, we can keep these skaters from quitting the sport altogether -- which is something a lot of them do. Right now there is really no place for the skater who is 18-25 years old, unless he or she is at a high or elite level. This would give them a place they can "belong."

Adult skating is all about including people, and I think this goes a long way in doing that. I am all for passing this proposal.

[Michigansk8er]

If the adult moves were closely aligned to the adult freeskating tests it would be a lot easier to make a case for grandfathering standard track skaters into their appropriate adult level...............and then testing adult track wouldn't be an issue. I think it's ridiculous to have to repeat tests. Obviously USFS isn't concerned about keeping costs down for skaters. What a waste of time and money.

As for "Yeah, I know I should be in gold, but I only had time to test through Bronze, so here I am!".........it's not that easy. You must compete at the level dictated by your regular track test history.

And speaking of regular track testing............Adult Silver criteria needs to be changed to no "higher than pre-juv fs" (rather than juv fs), since Adult Gold also reads "no higher than juv fs". What the heck is with that? I've heard the logic about there not being a pre-juv category years ago, but that no longer flies. And funny that logic didn't apply to the lower levels since Pre-Bronze is "no higher than Pre-Pre" (which didn't exist years ago either). The reason I know this is because I took the preliminary fs test when I was 25. The test I took back then is now the Pre-pre test (basically pre-bronze too). Even though my test elements were Pre-Pre I was not allowed to compete Pre-Bronze because the test was called Preliminary in 1979. I ended up stuck until I could test bronze. (I was an adult skater at the time I took this test in 1979 too). Sorry to get off the subject, but I really think this needs to be changed as younger skaters move into the adult ranks. If Silver and Gold criteria are both Juv FS, this certainly leaves a skater with the opportunity to chose where to start out.

[SkateGuard]

I'm all for lowering the test age. There are a lot of skaters who start skating in college, and that would provide them with the ability to test Adult right off the bat so they wouldn't have to test, then re-test when they hit 25. Also, it would allow a skater who started at 21 (or so) to enter AN's where they belong, rather than a few levels below where they should be because they couldn't get a bunch of tests passed between their 25th birthday and Jan 15.

However, I am a bit concerned about the restructuring of the age groups. This year is the first year I could afford the trip to LP, and I'm 29. I really couldn't afford to compete when I was 26 (I was living with my parents at the time), but I did anyway. Many skaters will not have the time to prepare if in college, and others many not have the financial resources to compete. There are Young Adult events at Wyandotte and Mids, and they are usually sparsely attended, with only a couple at each level, and no Bronzes or pre-Bronzes. Let's see how many young adults we have before we split up the age groups.

My other concern is a maturity level issue. Many of the younger adult skaters bring their parents to the comps with them, and behave accordingly. (There is one such adult skater who is a completely different person away from her parents than with them--and she's in her late 20's.) I am not saying that every 21-24 y.o. is an immature brat, but adult skating is very different than kid skating, and I would worry about the attitudes of younger skaters who don't have kids, jobs, houses, etc.--the things that make us realize that we do this for fun, not national titles. I know I wasn't mature enough to attend Adult Nationals at 26! It's a very different vibe, where first and last place are celebrated equally (who got the largest ovations in Champ Men last week....first and last place, of course!) I worry that if we allow younger skaters, that we will have an age group amok with overcompetitive, bratty "children" who have no idea what "adult" means in the skating community.

BTW, the top skaters in my group were 30 and 35, and they both ended up on the podium in Bronze. They are fantastic skaters (who probably could have medalled in the Silver I event), and I don't see age being a factor in that decision. Hey, I was one of the youngest skaters in my group, and I was at the bottom of the barrel.

Erin
who really, really doesn't want the pressure of having only two years to go from Bronze I to Gold I, just so I can reach that goal! :lol: But if I must, I must!

[daisies]

As for "Yeah, I know I should be in gold, but I only had time to test through Bronze, so here I am!".........it's not that easy. You must compete at the level dictated by your regular track test history.

Yes, you are correct. But that's assuming these skaters even tested up through regular track. Remember, a skater can't compete in Juvenile if he or she is 13. That skater is relegated to the Open Juvenile category, and that category isn't offered all that often, at least in my region. And they can't compete in Intermediate if they're over, I think, 15 or 16. (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.) So a lot of these skaters stay in Preliminary, or the like, because there's no age limit. It doesn't mean that can't do axels and doubles; they might very well be able to pass the Juvenile and Intermediate tests but don't want to take them since they can't compete due to age. And further, they perhaps don't have the skill to get as high as Novice or Junior, where their ages might not be prohibitory. When I said these hypothetical "sandbaggers" should be in gold and not bronze, I meant due to their skill level, not their test level. I should have been more clear on that, so I apologize.

And speaking of regular track testing............Adult Silver criteria needs to be changed to no "higher than pre-juv fs" (rather than juv fs), since Adult Gold also reads "no higher than juv fs". What the heck is with that?

I asked about this once and for the life of me can't remember what the response was. But it made sense at the time. Does anyone know?

[Stormy]

My other concern is a maturity level issue. Many of the younger adult skaters bring their parents to the comps with them, and behave accordingly. (There is one such adult skater who is a completely different person away from her parents than with them--and she's in her late 20's.) I am not saying that every 21-24 y.o. is an immature brat, but adult skating is very different than kid skating, and I would worry about the attitudes of younger skaters who don't have kids, jobs, houses, etc.--the things that make us realize that we do this for fun, not national titles. I know I wasn't mature enough to attend Adult Nationals at 26! It's a very different vibe, where first and last place are celebrated equally (who got the largest ovations in Champ Men last week....first and last place, of course!) I worry that if we allow younger skaters, that we will have an age group amok with overcompetitive, bratty "children" who have no idea what "adult" means in the skating community.

As someone who just got into the Class I age bracket and competed YA for years before, I kinda take offense at that. I've never ever witnessed that kind of behavior from any YA skater. I don't have kids, or a house, or a spouse, but I and every YA skater I know competes seriously and knows how to conduct themselves accordingly at competitions. We're not like the 12 year olds running around with multiple medals around our necks like you see at a lot of competitions! We all understand that whereas we compete seriosuly, we also skate for fun and for the love of it. I know I'm "mature" enough to attend AN's (and wish I could have this year), and so are all my friends who are still YA.

To be more on topic, I don't agree with having different test and competition ages. I think either make it 18+ or 21+ (preferably 21+) and have a YA (21-25) category. Keep the rest of the age classes the same. I really believe that if it was offered at Nats, it wouldn't be huge, but a lot of skaters would be interested. I know several YAs who would go. Heck, I would have LOVED to go to AN when I was a YA! Waiting years to turn 25 was cruddy.

[daisies]

My other concern is a maturity level issue. Many of the younger adult skaters bring their parents to the comps with them, and behave accordingly. (There is one such adult skater who is a completely different person away from her parents than with them--and she's in her late 20's.) I am not saying that every 21-24 y.o. is an immature brat, but adult skating is very different than kid skating, and I would worry about the attitudes of younger skaters who don't have kids, jobs, houses, etc.--the things that make us realize that we do this for fun, not national titles. I know I wasn't mature enough to attend Adult Nationals at 26! It's a very different vibe, where first and last place are celebrated equally (who got the largest ovations in Champ Men last week....first and last place, of course!) I worry that if we allow younger skaters, that we will have an age group amok with overcompetitive, bratty "children" who have no idea what "adult" means in the skating community.

I respectfully disagree and am actually taken aback by this statement. I think maturity has a lot to do with personality, not necessarily age. I encountered skaters even in age classes 2 and 3 who were all about winning and not the experience itself. It was annoying, but hey, if that's how they want to live their lives then so be it.

I was 26 at my first AN too, and I have learned and grown a lot maturity-wise since then, but if I can look back at myself objectively, I don't think I was ever "bratty." (I was definitely bratty at 12, but not in my 20s!!!) I think we need to give people credit that when they turn 21 they would be mature enough to handle themselves with at least some dignity. If they act like brats, then that's their problem, not the USFSA's.

JMHO!

[Michigansk8er]

. When I said these hypothetical "sandbaggers" should be in gold and not bronze, I meant due to their skill level, not their test level.

I'm not sure there is a way around that problem either...........especially since preliminary skaters are allowed to do an axel and 2 doubles. A huge difference from what you see from a preliminary (bronze) level adult.

[daisies]

I'm not sure there is a way around that problem either...........especially since preliminary skaters are allowed to do an axel and 2 doubles. A huge difference from what you see from a preliminary (bronze) level adult.

Exactly! So the 18-year-old who's only passed the Prelim test but can do that axel and two doubles really belongs in Gold if he or she ends up in adult competition. Giving that 18-year-old three years to test up to Gold seems logical to me. If we make this skater wait until he or she is 21, this skater might A) quit or B) only test the lower adult levels due to time or other limitations.

To those who don't believe the test age should be lower than the competition age, could you please explain why? I honestly can't see the harm or drawback in allowing skaters to simply take tests in preparation to compete later. I only see benefits, those of which I described in this and earlier posts.

Also, what if the proposal were to keep the competition age at 25 but lower the test age to, say, 21? This is hypothetical, but is essentially the same issue in terms of tests, and I am really interested in hearing WHY anyone would be opposed.

Thanks!

[vesperholly]

As someone who just got into the Class I age bracket and competed YA for years before, I kinda take offense at that. I've never ever witnessed that kind of behavior from any YA skater.<snip>We all understand that whereas we compete seriosuly, we also skate for fun and for the love of it. I know I'm "mature" enough to attend AN's (and wish I could have this year), and so are all my friends who are still YA.

Yeah, YA skaters rock! I admit to being a little immature off-ice... :halo: I've only had one awkward (not even bad) experience three years ago, and everything else has been wonderful. Adult competitions, especially the all-adult ones, are such a pick-me-up because everyone is so friendly and wonderful! I have met some of my best skating friends in YA competitions!

Back on topic... I think the age should be 21+. Too many 18-21 skaters are in college and would have a very difficult time skating, let alone testing and competing.

[Gold*starblade]

I understand that there is a collegiate option for people from the age of 18-23, now is this an option only if they actually do attend college? Additionally, what happens after they finish school at the age of 23? Are they then left without options until they reach the age of 26? If this is the case then I am all for creating a division for them, in fact I'm not even certain why it is an issue....I mean, I am not going to be skating against them, they will be competing at their level within their age group, how is this a possible negative? I think that there should always be an appropriate competition group for everyone, isn't that the spirit of adult skating?

[daisies]

I understand that there is a collegiate option for people from the age of 18-23, now is this an option only if they actually do attend college?

Yes, the skater must be enrolled in college (or about to enroll), but even more important, Collegiates only offer two levels: Junior and Senior, both standard track!

Additionally, what happens after they finish school at the age of 23? Are they then left without options until they reach the age of 26?

I wasn't aware that to skate in Collegiates you had to be aged 18-23, but if so, yes, that would be correct: From 23 to 25 (adult skating begins at 25, not 26), these skaters would have nowhere to go. But remember too what I said above: Collegiates are only for Junior- and Senior-level skaters.

If this is the case then I am all for creating a division for them, in fact I'm not even certain why it is an issue....I mean, I am not going to be skating against them, they will be competing at their level within their age group, how is this a possible negative? I think that there should always be an appropriate competition group for everyone, isn't that the spirit of adult skating?

That's what I've been wondering all along, but you said it much more eloquently! Adults can currently start competing at 25, but making class 1 a 21-26 category, and then class 2 a 27-35 category, seems really smart to me. It's all about including everyone. I mean, a person in the U.S. is actually an adult when he/she turns 18 and is allowed to drink at 21. So what's so wrong with allowing those people only to TEST at 18 and then COMPETE at 21? I just don't get the naysayers at all.

[flo]

I don't think that there is anyone not wanting the younger skaters to have a place to compete, just if it belongs, and is possible within the adult track and at adult nationals.
The participation for the young adult events has been very poor in events where this has been offered. Also, as brought up at the meeting if another category is added to AN's, then something must go - the AN events can't get any larger and still be supported and run as a quality event.
Right now I'm not willing to have another National event cut (like the final rounds of interpretive were) or have AN all qualifying to include an event with low participation.

[sk8er1964]

(snip)I'm not even certain why it is an issue....I mean, I am not going to be skating against them, they will be competing at their level within their age group, how is this a possible negative?

Just a point of clarification: If they skated at Gold or masters level, they could enter the championship events. A majority of the skaters in this year's championship Gold ladies event were II's and III's - so if the change was implimented, you could be a 50 year old skating against a 21 year old.

I'm not sure how I feel about the issue of including the 18-24's.

[Gold*starblade]

But once again, isn't that a type of exclusion or possibly even rise to the level of age discrimination? I would hate for someone to discriminate against me, and I certainly wouldn't want to perpetuate it....As for poor turn out at young adult events, I completely see that it is an awkward age for competition. However, with proper encouragement, appropriate events, and dedication to success these young men and women will enjoy competing at this level. To a certain extent I am sure that for some of them they don't feel like adult skaters and perhaps the adult track isn't true "competitive skating." Notwithstanding this attitude many of these young skaters are the future of Adult skating, if we maintain our child skaters the number of adult skaters will grow due to both these participants as well as new skaters who witness a vibrant and fun sport.

My vote is to continue to accomodate and encourage all skaters at any age!!!!

[w.w.west]

I just want to clear something up. There was a lot discussed at the meeting at Adult Nationals and understandably some wires may have gotten crossed. The possible restructuring of the age groups to include the 21 year olds is just that....a possible restructuring of the age groups. And it was never said that if 21 year olds were included that something else had to go. I know this was just a misunderstanding, so I want to clear this up right now. I wanted to be sure about this before I posted this, so I double checked with Maggie. So this is coming straight from the horse's mouth so to speak.

Including the 21 year olds is also NOT a proposal for this year's Governing Council. It was on the agenda at the meeting at AN for discussion purposes.

Gail

[Skatewind]

Yes, the skater must be enrolled in college (or about to enroll), but even more important, Collegiates only offer two levels: Junior and Senior, both standard track!
National Collegiate Figure Skating Championships only currently offers two levels. However, there has been a lot of year to year growth with collegiate skating. They now have a National Intercollegiate Figure Skating Team Championship that offers all different levels of freeskating.

[Skatewind]

My other concern is a maturity level issue. Many of the younger adult skaters bring their parents to the comps with them, and behave accordingly. (There is one such adult skater who is a completely different person away from her parents than with them--and she's in her late 20's.) I am not saying that every 21-24 y.o. is an immature brat, but adult skating is very different than kid skating, and I would worry about the attitudes of younger skaters who don't have kids, jobs, houses, etc.--the things that make us realize that we do this for fun, not national titles. I know I wasn't mature enough to attend Adult Nationals at 26! It's a very different vibe, where first and last place are celebrated equally (who got the largest ovations in Champ Men last week....first and last place, of course!) I worry that if we allow younger skaters, that we will have an age group amok with overcompetitive, bratty "children" who have no idea what "adult" means in the skating community.
I must really take issue with this observation since I have experienced horrid & rude skaters at all age levels. I don't find obnoxious skaters are more obnoxious at one particular level or the other. I also question credibility & intent when it's continually referred to as adult skating and/or vs. "kid" skating, even when the focus centers around young adults including adults over the age of 21. I can see some positives & some negatives from reviewing the material, & last I checked the competition & test rules weren't structured around who who has kids, jobs, houses, etc. And that's as it should be.

[flo]

Skatewind - like it or not there is a different attitude towards competing and skating in general when you're an adult with adult responsibilities. No one is saying it's better or not - it's just different. I would like to see the college skating program expand and offer more to it's participants. It's also not an insult to refer to "kid" skaters. It's just when they began skating, and it's a significantly different group than the adults. There is a difficult enough time now getting the judges and USFSA in general to understand what an "adult" skater is and is not. This will be even more difficult if the age range expands to 18. The competition and test rules are structured around the age of the skater, with 25 being an adult - and that's how it should be.

[Skatewind]

It's also not an insult to refer to "kid" skaters.
While you may not personally use it an an insulting term, I disagree with you that is is not used that way by many other skaters. I have come to this decision after being directly involved as well as reading message boards & participating in many discussions over the years. The alternative to adult skating is not kid skating. Standard track does not equal "kid skating". I really have no objection to keeping the track at age 25, but I don't care for the micromanaging of the term "adult" that goes on by many to justify their way as the only way. It's a large organization, people can respectfully disagree without the little us vs them "kids" side barbs & compromise will usually be needed to improve programs of all types.

[Michigansk8er]

I wasn't aware that to skate in Collegiates you had to be aged 18-23

There isn't an age limit. You just need to be a full time student. I have a friend on a collegiate team that is 47.

I'm assuming 18-23 was just to say that is the general age of college students.

[SkateGuard]

I must really take issue with this observation since I have experienced horrid & rude skaters at all age levels. I don't find obnoxious skaters are more obnoxious at one particular level or the other. I also question credibility & intent when it's continually referred to as adult skating and/or vs. "kid" skating, even when the focus centers around young adults including adults over the age of 21. I can see some positives & some negatives from reviewing the material, & last I checked the competition & test rules weren't structured around who who has kids, jobs, houses, etc. And that's as it should be.

Okay, you missed my intent. First of all, it was just a concern, based on the number of I-level skaters I have seen throwing tantrums because of the results. It is rude, uncalled for, and embarrassing. (One was at a club comp where the pre-pre's were just watching this young woman. I didn't want to admit to competing against her.) And another couple of incidents revolving around I-level skaters acting like children around their parents. I would never say that all YA skaters are like this, but the way children are staying children later in life, lowering the age may create problems that are typical of the standard track that, for the most part, are out of the adult track.

When I started skating at 22, my focus was on skating. I was living at home with my parents, my job was rather low level with minimal responsibility, and I didn't have the responsibility of taking care of even a fish. I also had a nice sized ego and was rather competitive (I still am, but I compete against myself, not other people). I do know I didn't have the maturity to behave appropriately at an adult skating competition. As I have settled into a more adult life, I have more perspective with my skating, and I understand that life doesn't revolve around skating. Yes, there are YAs who have that perspective, but I do worry about having 18-21 y.o.s when I watch MTV for any length of time. (Has anyone seen what these guys do during spring break?!) All of the material aspects do not necessarily equal maturity, but I really don't want to see the same attitudes I see from the standard track (which is the term I'll use even though it doesn't fit either) floating into the adult track. It has started, and I know I'm a bit guilty of some of it, but my attitudes are based on the basics of what make adult skating great: participation, comraderie, friendships, and fun!

My use of the word "kid" has never meant to be derogatory; I've been using it since I was 19--younger than the national team competitors at that time: Ina, Eldredge, Dungjen, Punsalan, Swallow! (I called it kiddie nationals, even though I was younger than three of the four national champs!) I feel the same way, whether "standard" or "kid" is used. Not an intentional slam on the standard track, just a slip of the tongue (or fingers :) ).

And thanks again Gail for setting us straight on all of these things. You rock!

Erin

[Stormy]

Okay, you missed my intent. First of all, it was just a concern, based on the number of I-level skaters I have seen throwing tantrums because of the results. It is rude, uncalled for, and embarrassing. (One was at a club comp where the pre-pre's were just watching this young woman. I didn't want to admit to competing against her.) And another couple of incidents revolving around I-level skaters acting like children around their parents. I would never say that all YA skaters are like this, but the way children are staying children later in life, lowering the age may create problems that are typical of the standard track that, for the most part, are out of the adult track.

When I started skating at 22, my focus was on skating. I was living at home with my parents, my job was rather low level with minimal responsibility, and I didn't have the responsibility of taking care of even a fish. I also had a nice sized ego and was rather competitive (I still am, but I compete against myself, not other people). I do know I didn't have the maturity to behave appropriately at an adult skating competition. As I have settled into a more adult life, I have more perspective with my skating, and I understand that life doesn't revolve around skating. Yes, there are YAs who have that perspective, but I do worry about having 18-21 y.o.s when I watch MTV for any length of time. (Has anyone seen what these guys do during spring break?!) All of the material aspects do not necessarily equal maturity, but I really don't want to see the same attitudes I see from the standard track (which is the term I'll use even though it doesn't fit either) floating into the adult track. It has started, and I know I'm a bit guilty of some of it, but my attitudes are based on the basics of what make adult skating great: participation, comraderie, friendships, and fun!


If you're basing your opinions on what you see on MTV, well you're waaaaay off base!! :) Did you act like that when you were that age? It just seems like you're making really broad generalizations. I'd be really surprised if the same girls "gone wild" who are flashing the cameras on spring break are the same girls who are practicing their skating for many hours a week. I understand your concerns, and I know there must be some skaters in general who act like that, but I've just never ever heard of that as a drawback to making the YA category for Nationals. JMHO.

[sk8er1964]

To come to SkateGuard's defense here, what she's saying does have some basis in fact from what I have been told. I was speaking with a 19 year old collegiate competitor just this week, comparing AN with their competitions. We were talking about the support and friendships at AN, about how we cheer for our competitors and the like. She said that stuff like doesn't happen much at the collegiate level - that competition is fierce, and even if you were friends with someone you wouldn't cheer for them at competition . She said the same thing about her club comps. This young lady (who is extremely nice, by the way) has very recent experience in the 18-23ish competitions, and I have every reason to believe her. I have heard similar things from teenagers at my club.

[daisies]

I was speaking with a 19 year old collegiate competitor just this week, comparing AN with their competitions. We were talking about the support and friendships at AN, about how we cheer for our competitors and the like. She said that stuff like doesn't happen much at the collegiate level - that competition is fierce, and even if you were friends with someone you wouldn't cheer for them at competition . She said the same thing about her club comps. This young lady (who is extremely nice, by the way) has very recent experience in the 18-23ish competitions, and I have every reason to believe her. I have heard similar things from teenagers at my club.

I think that's true of a lot of, if not all, standard-track skating. That's just the way it is. It's cut-throat, but it doesn't mean all the young people themselves are cut-throat. They may just be behaving that way because their surroundings dictate it.

I participated in AN after almost 10 years away from skating. I showed up there backed only by the knowledge I had from being a Novice Lady at 15 years old. I had no clue about adult skating. But one of the first things I heard was a child yelling "yay Mommy" from the stands as her mother competed. I quickly realized adult competition was like nothing else I'd experienced. And I quickly adapted to it and embraced it, though I was coming from a place of "fierce competition."

I'd be willing to bet this collegiate skater you speak of would change her tune once she participated in AN. She may enter the competition with her old attitude, but by the end she will be cheering for everyone. :)

[kar5162]

I have a lot to say on this, but will respond to only two things right now. As someone who started at 21, I think it's silly that I was a "kid" skater; I also think it's unfair to assume that younger skaters are automatically less mature than "adults".

Unlike Erin, I was not living at home when I started. I was at college, yes, but responsible for paying for skating entirely on my own. Then I moved to NYC, still 21, and started my first full time job and paid all of my own expenses, including skating. Am I more mature at 26 than at 21, well, yes, but presumably I will be more mature at 35 than at 26 and I will still be a I.

The three worst experiences I have had with "adult" skating involved older adults: one 30+ I and a II who were the most competitive, obnoxious people I've seen on the ice - intimidating other skaters and cutting them very close on warm up - I also overheard one saying that she had tested further as a child (now using her married name), but was competing lower so she could win. The other time was when I competed ISI once recreationally, and won my level and was lectured too by an older adult (40s?) for not competing at my correct level, which I was, given I was skating FS 4 and didn't have an axel.

But I'd be missing out if I let these negative things stop me from skating, because I also had a lot of positive experiences - skaters from my rink, adults and kids, encouraging me to land my axel - meeting flo and TaraNJ at a seminar, getting private messages from jazzpants concerned after September 11...and isn't that what adult skating is about? The fact that I was 23 and 24 didn't matter - I was and am an adult.

[tazsk8s]

I don't think "good" or "bad" competition behavior is limited to either standard track skaters, or adult-track skaters. My daughter is a 12 year old Juvenile. We skate at a rink where there are numerous other girls around her age and level. The very vast majority of our experiences with these kids have been incredibly positive. Last weekend she was in a club competition where two of her friends from our rink were also in her group. They both skated earlier in the group and were in the stands by the time my daughter skated, and they were among her loudest supporters. Pretty much all of "our" kids are like that with each other. Don't mistake me, they are competitive but in a positive way. They see that Susie Q's spins are looking better, or whatever, and it motivates them to improve their own. About the only negative experiences I can think of as far as competition behavior, have been with a couple of specific PARENTS from :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: who were unhappy on the occasions that their Darling got placed behind mine and have been rather vocal about it.

My experiences with adult competition have also been overwhelmingly positive. I've only done AN's once, but at the regular club comps I've done, the kids and their parents have been just as supportive as they are of my daughter. I've only had one experience with a fellow competitor at a club competition that left a bad taste afterwards, she basically had a complete meltdown after finding that she'd won! My daughter saw her out in the hallway literally on her hands and knees, screaming "OH MY GOD I WON I WON". Sheesh. My daughter's reaction was sort of :roll: This same woman was rather foul-mouthed in front of some kids in the locker room earlier in the day, so I guess my impression of her wasn't very good to begin with. Pretty much everyone else I've competed with has been a lot of fun and very gracious regardless of the results.

[Spreadeagle]

tazsk8s, ITA. I have seen good and bad behavior at all age levels from 5 to 65. In fact, sometimes it is the adults or parents who exhibit the least amount of maturity! I am also a reader/poster on Synchroboards, where everyone involved in synchronized skating, from juvenile-level 10 year olds to 40 year old masters synchro skaters, to parents of skaters on Team USA posts. It seems like the adult forum has the most infighting and snippy comments of any of the other forums!

Kids learn a lot their behavior from adults and older kids that they look up to. When you see a kid misbehaving or acting immature or inappropriate, it's often because their parents didn't teach them how to behave appropriately. Some kids can overcome this as they mature into adulthood, but this doesn't always happen. Sometimes competitive skating can help speed the maturity process, especially if you are a young adult skater who is just getting started in the adult world and having to pay for your own skating. Spending your own money on skating will definitely make you want to get the most positive experience out of it that you possibly can! I don't think that young adults should be denied the opportunity to compete because of their age. Age doesn't always equal maturity.

[twokidsskatemom]

yI don't think "good" or "bad" competition behavior is limited to either standard track skaters, or adult-track skaters. My daughter is a 12 year old Juvenile. We skate at a rink where there are numerous other girls around her age and level. The very vast majority of our experiences with these kids have been incredibly positive. Last weekend she was in a club competition where two of her friends from our rink were also in her group. They both skated earlier in the group and were in the stands by the time my daughter skated, and they were among her loudest supporters. Pretty much all of "our" kids are like that with each other. Don't mistake me, they are competitive but in a positive way. They see that Susie Q's spins are looking better, or whatever, and it motivates them to improve their own. About the only negative experiences I can think of as far as competition behavior, have been with a couple of specific PARENTS from :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: who were unhappy on the occasions that their Darling got placed behind mine and have been rather vocal about it.

My experiences with adult competition have also been overwhelmingly positive. I've only done AN's once, but at the regular club comps I've done, the kids and their parents have been just as supportive as they are of my daughter. I've only had one experience with a fellow competitor at a club competition that left a bad taste afterwards, she basically had a complete meltdown after finding that she'd won! My daughter saw her out in the hallway literally on her hands and knees, screaming "OH MY GOD I WON I WON". Sheesh. My daughter's reaction was sort of :roll: This same woman was rather foul-mouthed in front of some kids in the locker room earlier in the day, so I guess my impression of her wasn't very good to begin with. Pretty much everyone else I've competed with has been a lot of fun and very gracious regardless of the results.
My dd just started competeing last year, so we arew pretty new at this. we have been to two isi and have a usfsa one coming soon. From what we have seen and what we teach our kids, we will support our kids from here, even if they skate with our child.We are going to watch the kids above her and cheer for them as well.
but then we have taught our kids not to boo at hockey games too.We do have to be role models.

[Stormy]

I am also a reader/poster on Synchroboards, where everyone involved in synchronized skating, from juvenile-level 10 year olds to 40 year old masters synchro skaters, to parents of skaters on Team USA posts. It seems like the adult forum has the most infighting and snippy comments of any of the other forums!


I'm a moderator on SynchroBoards, and aint' that the truth! :)