isi judging?

[twokidsskatemom]

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[batikat]

I don't really know much about ISI (I'm British) but from various posts it would seem that they have much stricter rules on what is allowed in their competitions. Is it possible that for this particular competition the judges were not supposed to, or not allowed to, take the connecting moves into account in the marking and the other skaters did the actual elements slightly better than your daughter, even if they had no connecting moves? I can't think of any other explanation unless the other skaters were indeed more known (and much as I hate to think this happens, there are occasions when it really seems to be the only explanation for some odd results that occur) and were marked up on that basis.

Maybe your daughter would be more suited to USFSA competitions where there is definitely credit given for presentation and higher level elements. But you will still come across competitions where the results seem completely at odds with the reality. I guess the new marking system is supposed to address this.

The main thing at your daughters level though is that she enjoyed the competition and will go on to do more and have fun and hopefully get marked fairly in future.

[twokidsskatemom]

deleted

[fadedstardust]

The thing is that in any comp, ISI or USFSA, there will be some results you won't understand. Some will be fair, some won't. It's just the nature of a judged sport. There's bias, whether it's name related, club related, or simply related to what a particular judge likes in way of a particular song, program, costume, anything really. It just happens. ESPECIALLY in ISI, which is deemed a recreational institution and is, as you said, judged by coaches who don't have any judge training. Was she for sure allowed a move from FS1? Did she do more elements than she was supposed to? Did the music go longer than the limit by even a second? How was her costume? If all these were fine, then it was probably just a matter of preference, or a small technical thing like depth of edges, posture..the list goes on and on and I thinkt he most important thing is that she was happy with 3rd, instead of sitting there saying "but I was better, why why why??" because so many kids do. Sounds like your kid's already understood this sport and that all that matters is being happy to be a part of it and happy with the performances. Better medals will come in time!! :)

-FadedStardust

[twokidsskatemom]

:}

[Mrs Redboots]

I'm sorry your daughter didn't get the results that you, and her coach, felt she deserved. But I am quite sure that you celebrated with her, and told her how proud you were of her, just as enthusiastically as if she had.

The thing about competitions is that you can't control what the judges do, and you can't control what the other skaters do, so all you can do is go out there and skate your absolute best. It's incredibly disheartening when you feel you've skated a blinder and still place last (tell me about it!!!), but the important thing is to go out there and skate. And your daughter did, and I'm sure you're really proud of her.

[twokidsskatemom]

thanks :}

[Justine_R]

Being proud of herself is the most important thing.:)

[skaternum]

Originally posted by Justine_R
Being proud of herself is the most important thing.:)

Indeed it is. twokidsskatemom, I must say, since you initiated a conversation about it, that I think you're obsessing over the placements. This is a local ISI competition, not US Nationals! The kids aren't even in FS1 yet. Your kids are going to pick up on your concerns, which won't be good. Just let them skate and enjoy their programs.

[dbny]

ISI holds seminars for their professional members, which often include judge training. I've attended a few, and we watched videos of actual competitions, were instructed on the scoring rules, and then scored what we saw. There was then a discussion of each skater and the scoring we came up with. ISI judges also must pass judging tests. Additionally, there may have been things you were not aware of that detracted from your daughter's score, or added to that of the other skaters.

I just judged a small basic skills in-house competition last week. I knew about 4 of the skaters, none of them well, and the same was true for the other 2 judges, so I do not believe there was any bias. I remember one little girl who "looked like a skater" and skated after two others who were fairly gawky looking. It turned out though, that the others made points in the individual elements that the "skater" did not. The "skater" turned out to have only one strong element, and was either third or fourth (only four in each event). I actually do not know, because I just judged each element on its own merits and let the chips fall where they may. I knew when the event was over, that my first impression of the "skater" had been totally overturned.

OTOH, I've attended USFSA competitions where there clearly seemed to be bias at work, so I would never rule that out.

I'm glad you and your coach soft pedalled it. It's so important for the kids to learn good sportsmanship. At the little comp last week, afterwards, one coach came into the office, where we three judges, the skating director and assistant director were, and wanted to know why his student came in second instead of first (out of two). We had just been told by the tabulator that we had all been in agreement on the placement of all the skaters! One of the other judges spoke up with the reason, and the coach began arguing with her about how his student's spin was so much better! This guy buttonholed me on my way to my car (we know each other), and argued about it! I'm sure I will be hearing either the student or the mom saying "he should have gotten first" next week. What a lot of fuss over nothing, and what a bad example to set. So sad.

[twokidsskatemom]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by skaternum
[

[twokidsskatemom]

nprove her skills.

[mary]

She got 3 medals and you're complaining about it? What will you do when one day she doesn't medal at all? It will happen, trust me.

[Elsy2]

Originally posted by dbny
ISI holds seminars for their professional members, which often include judge training. I've attended a few, and we watched videos of actual competitions, were instructed on the scoring rules, and then scored what we saw. There was then a discussion of each skater and the scoring we came up with. ISI judges also must pass judging tests. Additionally, there may have been things you were not aware of that detracted from your daughter's score, or added to that of the other skaters.

I just judged a small basic skills in-house competition last week. I knew about 4 of the skaters, none of them well, and the same was true for the other 2 judges, so I do not believe there was any bias. I remember one little girl who "looked like a skater" and skated after two others who were fairly gawky looking. It turned out though, that the others made points in the individual elements that the "skater" did not. The "skater" turned out to have only one strong element, and was either third or fourth (only four in each event). I actually do not know, because I just judged each element on its own merits and let the chips fall where they may. I knew when the event was over, that my first impression of the "skater" had been totally overturned.

OTOH, I've attended USFSA competitions where there clearly seemed to be bias at work, so I would never rule that out.



IMO this post merits repeating. Good post Dbny! I have to go back several years to recall our first basic skills competition experiences, and I have to say they were the most difficult for this "skatemom".

You are learning one of the hardest lessons for a parent, and that is how to handle the situation when you feel your skater was "robbed". It will happen many times over the years.

Part of your job is to assess the competition, and decide if it is well run and worth your while to attend again the next year.

It will get easier in certain ways as your skater moves up the levels. The differences in skating skills becomes more apparent. You will be a more experienced skateparent. Goals will change for your skater. Sometimes the goal will be just to put out a new program or element with no expectations of medals.

My advise is to trust the judgement of your coach, and learn as much as you can about what you are watching. It would be great if you took up skating yourself! (I'm always trying to convince parents to skate too).

Anyways....I do know exactly how you feel. Sometimes you will never figure out why the results came out the way they did. You really have to focus on your skater, and did they meet their goals?

[skaternum]

Just a reminder: you started this thread and even indicated that you "know how it will sound." I'm merely affirming that to some of us, it sounds like you think it sounds.

Here's why I think you need to lighten up a little:

Originally posted by twokidsskatemom
I first want to say i didnt want her to win first. <snip> She knows she will not always be first and she is fine with that idea.
So what if she comes in dead last? Every time. Is that okay? This still implies that you have a preconceived idea of where she ought to place. It's okay if she doesn't come in first but it's not okay if it's lower than ... what? second?

How shocked were we went she got 3rd? <snip> My dd was fine with all of it, we were the ones upset. <snip> Is it just a name thing and the more she does it, the more they judges will know her?
thanks

This was the main reason I think you're going a little overboard on the issue. Kids do pick up on what's going on with the adults around them. I've been around skating for a long time, and I'm constantly amazed at how willing some people are to ascribe poor results to all sorts of things like name recognition, costumes, music, etc. Most judges see so many skaters they don't really keep track of who is who. Sometimes judges just think one skater skated better.

And yes, I do think the level of the skater matters to a point. I could understand getting upset about the results of a qualifying event, where your advancement to the next level of competition is dependent on your placement at this one, but this was a fun ISI local comp. It sounds to me like the goal for your daughter was to place well. Not to skate well, but to place well. If you're really interested in her doing skills correctly and improving, just let her work with the coach instead of trying to figure out what she should do to do better at the next competition. If you get this worked up at this level, what will it be like when she's competing in Pre-juvenile?

And finally, asking for our advice about why your daughter placed where she did is futile. We didn't see the event, and most of the posters here aren't judges or coaches. Anything you get here is pure speculation.

[twokidsskatemom]

.

[jp1andOnly]

I dont think it was bias that your daughter faced. Honestly, maybe the judges felt the other kids did better. Sometimes the best polished skaters aren't the "cutest" ones especially at the low level. Sometimes its those kiddies that go out, look confused pretty much cry, or fall down that everyone makes a big stink about.

I wasn't tehre so its hard to say why she placed lower. But honestly, I doubt it was bias. And if you honestly think it was, don't do that particular competition next year.

Trust me, in the skating world, you will come across worse things than this. Just shrg your shoulders and move on.

[twokidsskatemom]

This was the main reason I think you're going a little overboard on the issue. Kids do pick up on what's going on with the adults around them. I've been around skating for a long time, and I'm constantly amazed at how willing some people are to ascribe poor results to all sorts of things like name recognition, costumes, music, etc. Most judges see so many skaters they don't really keep track of who is who. Sometimes judges just think one skater skated better.

its funny, i read a thread in the adult skating that alot of people do think somtimes its names, music ect.that is why i asked in the first place.Even her COACH who has been skating longer than you, thought so.We travled 500 miles for this one and have to travel if she wants to conpete due to where we live at.
i was just asking cause if ISI is more that way than usfsa than maybe we would just stick with USfsa.
And unless we talk about it in front of her, how would you know she would pick it up? you dont know me or anything about us at all.
I wasnt upset cause she didnt win, i was upset cause I saw the others skaters and so did my dd.
Thanks everyone else for their helful advice, It did help.

[twokidsskatemom]

that is great advice thanks:) made me feel better.

[twokidsskatemom]

And finally, asking for our advice about why your daughter placed where she did is futile. We didn't see the event, and most of the posters here aren't judges or coaches. Anything you get here is pure speculation.



ummmm the name of this forum is called parents/coaches.Guess i was looking for answers from parents who have been there or coaches.I didnt think you had a skating child right now or was a coach.The people who gave me the best help were the ones who had kids skating or who do teach.For all of them i say thanks alot:)
sorry i got snippy,it was so not worth it for me and out of place.Guess having a 3yo who doesnt sleep and going through peri menapause isnt a good mix :roll:

[Elsy2]

We have attended competition just to "be seen" by the judges. It's not so much name recognition, but just a visual recognition that this skater has been out there in the competitive scene awhile and has paid their dues, so to speak. Over time you will become familiar with the skaters, as do the judges, and you will be able to see their progress. You will know when they skate up to their potential, or have a bad day.

This may not be the case in this basic skills competition, but it's something you will become aware of over time.

You are going to suspect bias many times at competition. You will wonder if there was a home club advantage. You will wonder if it mattered what coach was standing by the boards. You will wonder if the judges hated the music. You will see that one judge in particular might give lower placements than the majority, and wonder if they are biased against your club. You'll never be able to prove any of it.

I'm sure you'll find this to be the case in both ISI and USFSA. It's inevitable in a sport like this. You have to focus on the positives that the sport can provide.

[twokidsskatemom]

:)

[Bogie88]

From one skating mom to another, don't worry about things like this, please! I doubt that recognition at this level is a factor, so many other things could be. It makes more sense that recognition would be an issue at higher levels, but really, at this level it's all fun, and your daughter seems like she thought it was.

Truthfully, I'm irked about your coach feeding your frustration, and not injecting a little reality into all of this. That strikes me as unprofessional. I know my child's coaches have had skating parents who wanted to to ask the judges why they did this or that, and the coaches would tell them go ahead, if they wanted to get a reputation for that kind of nonsense, but they would not coach their children anymore. It's the coach's job to handle that kind of communication, and an experienced coach will know that you win some and you lose some, and you are not likely to endear your child to the judges by complaining about a little competition. It won't do the coach's reputation any good, either. I know you weren't planning on complaining to the judges, but your coach should not be grasping for explanations that indicate politics or bias at such a low level. Your daughter will be at a competition sometime where she does not deserve to win and does. As the saying goes, what goes around comes around!;)

[twokidsskatemom]

very very true :}

[skaternum]

You know, this has become quite stupid, but I'm going to respond one last time. Probably a bad idea but what the heck.

"I didnt ask YOU why she placed the way she did !!! "
No, you just described a situation where you can't figure out why she placed where she did and said, "So, anyone thoughts?" I had some thoughts. You didn't like them.

"Sorry for the ? since you all know much more thasn some stupid parent.Adult skaters seem to be that way."
This is rude and uncalled for.

"its funny, i read a thread in the adult skating that alot of people do think somtimes its names, music ect.that is why i asked in the first place."
And if they think that, they're just as wrong. Means nothing. Yes, judges are human, but they usually have a very good reason for how they place skaters in a group.

"ummmm the name of this forum is called parents/coaches.Guess i was looking for answers from parents who have been there or coaches.I didnt think you had a skating child right now or was a coach."
I've both taught and judged at competitions like that. I didn't realize giving birth was a prerequisite here. :roll:

Quote from Bogie88 sums it up: "I know you weren't planning on complaining to the judges, but your coach should not be grasping for explanations that indicate politics or bias at such a low level."

Yep, fine when Bogie says it, but not skaternum... <yawn>

[twokidsskatemom]

.

[dbny]

Originally posted by twokidsskatemom
Guess having a 3yo who doesnt sleep and going through peri menapause isnt a good mix :roll:

Too true :( You have my sympathies on that one!

Originally posted by twokidsskatemom
..when her coach told us she watched the judges and one of them wasnt even watching her skate..

If your coach watched the judges every minute, then she did not see your daughter skate. Of course, a judge may look away or, more likely, look down at the score sheet to write a score or comments. Anyone watching me last week could easily have caught me not looking at the skater, but I did see every element skated by every skater.

[twokidsskatemom]

:)

[Mrs Redboots]

Poor you - is there a Granny or kind Aunt somewhere who will take them for a night or two so you can catch up on sleep?

It's odd, though, speaking as a competitive skater, we are all absolutely convinced that certain judges like us, and others don't! I'm sure the poor judges would be horrified if they heard some of the remarks that go on in the changing-rooms! BUT, if you talk to them, they barely know who they have seen, and they certainly have very little idea as to how their colleagues have placed that skater. One judge said to me that when she asks her friends: "How did you do?" she gets funny looks: "Well, you were judging!" But she said she still had very little idea - she knew where she had placed them.... (On the other hand I'm still convinced that X likes my style, and my friend is convinced he hates her! And I KNOW that Y loathed my last year's interpretive..... and so it goes.....).

It is okay, by the way, to ask a judge - not "Why did my daughter place so badly?" but "What does she need to do to improve?" You don't always get a chance - they are tired after competition, and usually thinking of nothing more than a nice cup of tea and then going home. But as you get to know them a bit, you'll know who's willing to chat afterwards and who would far prefer to avoid all contact with anybody! And sometimes you get a spontaneous compliment from one of them, which is really nice: "Your daughter has improved this year!" or something.

Edited to add: sometimes, when you see the results, you wonder how on earth you could have ended up in that position when the individual judges had you much higher, but it seems to work like that. Sometimes, just sometimes, it works to your advantage, but mostly it seems to work against you....

[blue111moon]

The ONLY people who can tell you why a skater placed the way they did are the judges themselves - and only the judges of that particular event. They're the ones to ask - and ask as soon after the event as possible, while the memories are still fresh.

Although it is my understanding that ISI judges are not required to say anything more than whether or not deductions were taken. So that might not be productive.

The best thing to do is to shrug it off and move on. Everybody get results they don't like or don't understand. Next competition, different judges, could be different results.

[Isk8NYC]

I have to agree with DBNY about the judges' training for ISI. I have also attended the ISI Workshops and found they were good, and the judges are certified via testing. I also don't think there's any bias involved. If any deductions were taken (and there are very few at this level), it comes down to adding something extra that wasn't allowed (watch the half jumps), leaving out a maneuver (maybe it wasn't recognized?), or the music was too long (check with a stopwatch.) I assume that, since her program includes a Freestyle 1 maneuver, that she's skating a lower level. Tot 1-4 programs don't include a Freestyle 1 maneuver, however Pre-Alpha through Delta does include one (and only one.)

I once went to an ISI competition that was several hours away. No one knew our small team of six skaters. Yet, we won medal after medal. No bias there. However, at one point, my own niece won a gold medal that I didn't feel she deserved. When I looked at the scores (not the placements) something seemed strange -- the gap was too big between the skater I thought should have won and the awarded winner. The competition director later found out that one judge's scores hadn't been added for the girl that came in fourth. A simple mistake. When the scores were recalculated, my niece got second and the other skater was in first place. While it was sad for my niece, it taught her a valuable lesson in sportsmanship. And, yes, she still loves me.

Today, I find that the total scores aren't posted, just the final placements. Maybe that's the way The EDGE competition software works, maybe it's to avoid controversy. Either way, parents/coaches really don't have a way to understand why the results ended up where they did.

Asking about results at the competition is difficult because the volunteers are under such pressure to keep the schedule moving. Never approach a judge and ask. Only coaches should inquire. Your coach could call and ask the director to look at the event's scoring sheets and give the coach feedback if there was anything wrong with the program. Not, "why didn't she win?" Just "Is there something that needs correcting?" Using the reasoning that you don't want the kid to struggle for the rest of the season, you need to make sure the program passes muster. In either case, don't let it sour you on competitions -- you win some, you lose some.

[Elsy2]

Although most of us may think it's absurd to be considering bias at basic skills, it is at this time that the question of bias first arises and must be addressed.

I attend a local basic skills comp. every year to support my little skating friends and their moms. These parents who are new to the whole competitive scene are just learning to cope with the joy of achievement, and the disappointment of defeat. Most of the kids are just fine, but the parents are basket cases up in the stands, and are astounded at results. They don't know what they are watching. They can't recognize technical differences. They just know their skater looked so good, didn't fall, so why didn't they win? Or if someone did fall (perhaps not on an element), why did they place well?

Actually, I've seen more parents blame their coaches for placements than blame judging or bias!

Twokidsskatemom, I am not directing this at you. I have no idea if you know what you are watching technically, or if your coach is the sort that is teaching you the ropes as you go along. It sounds like she is, and that's great.

I'm just saying that the issue of bias and blame is brought up more at these lower level competitions than the higher ones. (It will be discussed at the higher levels too, but the issues will be a bit different. You'll be wondering how the judges could give credit to those cheated jumps you see....) It's just a matter of parents learning the ins and outs of the the sport, and learning to accept the outcomes and make the best of it.

[garyc254]

I've seen some obvious bias in judging at times. It's going to happen.

I've also seen judges that do both ISI and USFSA mark a skater poorly because they thought a particular element wasn't allowed only to find out later that it is in ISI, but not in USFSA. They got confused.

At a recent local competition, the judges volunteered to critique each skater with their coach individually after they performed. After the judges were changed for the next set of events, the skaters and coaches could go to the judges room and in private talk about the good and bad points of a skater's routine. It worked marvelously as it made sure the judges kept decent notes and was a great learning tool for the skaters.

[twokidsskatemom]

thanks everyone :)

[tsolomon]

As a skating parent, I know what you are going through and there really isn't any way to explain the results. Judging an event is very difficult even for judges, but parents haven't had the training and have to rely on the coach to explain it all. I have heard too many negative comments from coaches who will tell you what the other skater did wrong or poorly, but will not tell you what they did that was good. This is where the judges have to balance the scale and make the hard decisions.

If you are a parent who is new to skating, then all you can do is rely on your coach and give it time. At the lower levels, great presentation can work for you if other skaters make mistakes and your skater doesn't. It's great technique that wins in the long run when the other skaters quit because they can't do the jumps or stroke correctly. I don't know anything about ISI judging, but judges do have likes and dislikes.

Under the USFSA's majority system, bias should not be a problem as it takes a majority of judges to award a placement. I can see where 1-2 judges might have a bias, but not a whole panel of 5-9 judges.

[Elsy2]

Originally posted by tsolomon

Under the USFSA's majority system, bias should not be a problem as it takes a majority of judges to award a placement. I can see where 1-2 judges might have a bias, but not a whole panel of 5-9 judges.

Yes, this is the good news when you have 5-9 judges. The majority will usually prevail, except if you tie. Then that out of line ordinal you get will be added in to the total and may place you lower.

[Isk8NYC]

Originally posted by Elsy2
Actually, I've seen more parents blame their coaches for placements than blame judging or bias!

You're right! I had a new student join one of my groups recently. The kid skated with me maybe once or twice out of five lessons. The test records from her prior group instructor couldn't be found, for whatever reason. (Very unusual for our rink.)

Her Mom wanted to put her in the in-house USFS Basic Skills competition. I told the Mom I wasn't sure what level she should be at because there were no records. Mom said that she remembered getting a record for Basic 3, but she didn't have them with her. So I suggested putting her in Basic 3.

The kid didn't do very well because she had only mastered two of the Basic 3 skills, which is what the records showed. She should have been in Basic 2. Of course, Mom had to go out of her way to tell me about this. As Jerry Lewis would say "LAAAAADYYYYY!!!! I DON'T KNOW YOUR KID, HER SKATING, OR HER TEST LEVEL! COMPLAINING WON'T SOLVE ANYTHING NOW! DEAL WITH IT AND HAVE YOUR KID ACTUALLY COME TO CLASS REGULARLY!" (Sorry about the shouting fellow board members.)

Well, live and learn. I've added a rule that says I cannot sign off on a level without proper documentation in front of me. I am SO glad I didn't put my own kids into this competition, because I think that any achievement would have been chalked up to favoritism.

[tsolomon]

Originally posted by Elsy2
Yes, this is the good news when you have 5-9 judges. The majority will usually prevail, except if you tie. Then that out of line ordinal you get will be added in to the total and may place you lower. Only if you go to the second tiebreaker TO, at the first tiebreaker TOM, you only count the ordinals that were in the majority. The real issue here is that one judge really can't change your placement, but in most cases at the lower level the clean program wins. I have seen too many competitions where everyone makes mistakes and I wouldn't want to be the one judging it.

[peaches]

Originally posted by twokidsskatemom
was name rec a big thing in ISI.The end.


No. It's not. The end.

Unless a skater is a FS 9 or 10, they're not "known" and there is no name recognition; even then, if they're outskated, they're outskated. The only questionable result I've seen in ISI was an FS 9 skater, Russ Corenblum (known now as Russ Scott) skating Interpretive against the only FS 10 skater at that time, Jon Robinson, at ISI Nationals in 1985 and Russ did a far better job of interpreting the music, but because Jon was FS 10 he won. He did more jumps, something that isn't even supposed to matter in Interpretive events.

The thing I respect and like about ISI is that anyone can participate and you don't know the results beforehand like in some USFS comps. I've seen fat kids win, ugly kids win, you name it. Kids that wouldn't stand a chance in hell in USFS competition, but they can skate their hearts out in ISI and do very well.

I skated in both USFS and ISI growing up and have continued to be involved in both organizations, and I can honestly say that ISI is incredibly fair whereas USFS is all about reputation, politicking, and kissing butts. It's serious business even at the low levels. If you can't handle a dinky ISI comp don't even consider USFS.

If a parent has a bad attitude the kid will pick up on it and it's not a good thing. Skating, especially at that level, should be all about fun, not pressure.

[backspin]

In these sorts of competitions, you have to take everything with a grain of salt.

When my students test, I always tell them, though it usually is fair, you do get ripped off ocassionally---HOWEVER, you also get a gift once in awhile too. I tell them it all evens out in the long run. I can tell you of one test that I passed that I definitely shouldn't have.

Competitions too--there may be a time when she wins when she really shouldn't--and then you'll be cosmically even again..... :mrgreen:

Also remember that ISI basic skills competitions are really there for the purpose of having the experience and having fun. If she skated well and enjoyed herself, mission accomplished.

[Elsy2]

Originally posted by tsolomon
Only if you go to the second tiebreaker TO, at the first tiebreaker TOM, you only count the ordinals that were in the majority. The real issue here is that one judge really can't change your placement, but in most cases at the lower level the clean program wins. I have seen too many competitions where everyone makes mistakes and I wouldn't want to be the one judging it.

Thanks for the clarification. I was thinking about a particular competition where it did matter, but it is a rare situation.

Peaches, I had to laugh reading your post. Tell me what you REALLY think about USFS! ;)

[garyc254]

Originally posted by peaches
I skated in both USFS and ISI growing up and have continued to be involved in both organizations, and I can honestly say that ISI is incredibly fair whereas USFS is all about reputation, politicking, and kissing butts. It's serious business even at the low levels. If you can't handle a dinky ISI comp don't even consider USFS.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Telling it like it is, eh? ;)

There are a lot of good judges and competitors, too.

BUT, I don't totally disagree with you.

[twokidsskatemom]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by peaches

[peaches]

Originally posted by twokidsskatemom
[QUOTE]Originally posted by peaches
[B]Sorry,,,in the state I am in and place at, the coaches do you know the other skaters by name. We had other coaches ask her coach about her so please dont say they dont know people by name.We live in alarge state but small fs community.Unless you are here, I dont think you know how things work here.YOu dont know anything about a a place where to compete you must travel or the next city to us is 400 miles away.How can you saw kids arent known by others unless you are all the others?
I said all i asked was that name re c a big deal in isi and from here. maybe it is.We are in a place where at fs skate, my dd might be the only one on the ice.Does that happen where you live?Do you all have ice time by yourselves?
I dont have issues with her not winning, since we saw what we saw and none of you did. its ok that some people here dont get it and as I said now to the next one.We know in our hearts how she skates, and that is all that counts.
everyone else thanks alot
:) :) :)

You're so right. I've only been involved in ISI for 22 years, traveled from GA to Washington State, to Buffalo, to Detriot, to CA, to Texas and everywhere in between, I obviously know nothing.

I'm also a judge by the way, which is who you said you wanted to answer your questions.

I traveled quite a bit to ISI comps when I was a kid and much farther than 400 miles, thanks. And sure, the more you compete, the more people will say HI and know you by name, but your specific question was whether or not that creates bias, and my answer was no it does not. I'm sorry I didn't tell you what you wanted to hear. ;)

For the record, I DO think you have a definite problem with her not winning or you'd never have posted anyhing in the first place.

[peaches]

Originally posted by garyc254
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Telling it like it is, eh? ;)

There are a lot of good judges and competitors, too.

BUT, I don't totally disagree with you.

Sorry, I know I'm blunt, lol. I love both organizations for different reasons and have had good experiences with both, but USFS can be very harsh and is not for the faint of heart, IMO. ;)

[twokidsskatemom]

:)

[garyc254]

Easy, kids. No reason to get hostile.

Otherwise, we'll be acting like.... them. 8O

Whomever "them" is. :lol:

Let's just try to educate each other. Okay?

[twokidsskatemom]

:) its kewl gary :) I didnt think one ? would be just a deal but we have learned and we really are fine with how she placed, just didnt now :) :)

[peaches]

Originally posted by twokidsskatemom
[Bpeaches just did seemed to have other issues with me from another formum, and that is just life.


[/B]

:?: I have absolutely no idea who you are or who you think *I* am, but I don't even remember seeing your name before posting on this board. I was just answering your questions.

If you only wanted coaches and judges from ALASKA to answer your questions, I think you should have stated that from the get go instead of leaving it open-ended for all to reply.

ISI judging standards are the same in Alaska as they are in NY, CA, or GA, or Hong Kong, so I think I can speak rather intelligently about the system, but again, since you only trust the opinion of people that skate, coach, or judge in Alaska, then sit here and maybe at some point some will come along. If the FS community there is as small as you claim you may be waiting a while though. ;)

[twokidsskatemom]

:)

[peaches]

Originally posted by garyc254
Easy, kids. No reason to get hostile.

Otherwise, we'll be acting like.... them. 8O

Whomever "them" is. :lol:

Let's just try to educate each other. Okay?

That's all I was trying to do. My mistake.

[peaches]

Originally posted by twokidsskatemom
I DONT KNOW TO HAVE U GET IT PEACHES!!!!!!
I didnt ask for judges from alaska, just a ? about isi. You come and tell me how WRONG I AM< AND HOW RIGHT YOU ARE. I just said you really cant tell them there is no name rec here unless you skate fs 10, WE DO HAVE IT HERE> DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT.This is a different place than where you come from sweetie.Myabe that you can understand.We have the same 8 judges do all the comps here.Do you get that part.
And since you dont know me, Im the one you insulted by saying babies at 9 months are tumors and growths.You dont remember, go read your last 20 post.All this is is you saying you know more and Im sure in your eyes you do.
This is so silly, you know more than me so that is fine too.Go ahead, put me down some more, its shows how you are not me.

Oh. So the problem is that you felt offended by my opinion in another thread. OK, I do get it now. Thanks.

My point, and I'll try to be clear, is that you asked if there was a problem with name recognition in ISI.

I said no.

You said how could I know since I'm not from the same place you are.

I said sorry, I didn't realize you only wanted people from you area to answer.

You claim that's not what you said, but again, you're telling me that I have no clue because I'm not from there.

So......you asked a question, a question that anyone involved in ISI could answer or give an opinion about. You got an answer, but you're still not happy because you obviously don't want the opinion from anyone outside you area.

I don't think you'll really be happy until someone says what you think they should be saying. You don't really have just a "? about isi", what you really have a question about is ISI in your area. So......all I'm saying is that you may have to wait a while on that. Or contact members from your ISI district and let them counsel you on that issue. I have skated and judged in Alaska, but that was years ago, so I'm sure my opinion will mean nothing and I'll just leave you with your question waiting to be answered from someone from up there. Good luck.

[twokidsskatemom]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by peaches
That's all I was trying to do. My mistake. [/QUOTE

[twokidsskatemom]

:)

[garyc254]

HEY!!! Let's cool it.

I've already reported this thread to a moderator to have it shut down.

I'd hate to see anybody get banned from the forum.

[twokidsskatemom]

I did too since I didnt come here to be bashed, just informed kwim?

[Arsenette]

Considering that ALL of posts in question have been edited before I got to seem them this thread is closed. I have no clue what went on outside of getting reports via the report to moderator. In the future if you have a problem do NOT delete posts to see what on earth is going on.