Not a level playing field!

[batikat]

With the prospect of Canadian Adult Nationals coming up I've noticed much discussion of levels and age splits on various discussion boards. I thought you might be interested in my experience at a recent Open competition here in the UK.

It was a dance comp. and the split for Free dance was under level 6 and 'any Standard'. I enjoy Free dance and despite being only level 2 have done this same comp a few times. However, this year the age limit for 'Adult' was lowered to 18. I've always been against an age split in dance comps as I felt I'd prefer to know where I stood against everyone at that level regardless of age (though the kids have age splits). However this year the competition was won by a just turned 18 year old who had been skating since she was 7 years old and was hoping to qualify for the British Seniors competition in Free skating (so would be level 8 or 9 or even 10 in Free skating) She'd taken up ice dance and was about to take her level 5 & 6 tests but hadn't yet.

By contrast, I started skating at 37 and have skated for 4 years. In the comp. I was drawn to skate immediately after this girl - daunting or what!!!???

The upside was, we got to watch a very lovely skater in action - and she was a very sweet girl too. Also it may be the only time I ever get to skate against an 'Elite' skater!!! It didn't however make for a very fair competition and it does point up an additional problem with 'Adult' dance comps in that you do get older 'Elite' Freeskaters turning to dance or adding dance to their repertoire and are then exceptionally good skaters but are able to compete in low level dance comps as they havent taken the dance tests yet.

I ended up 7th of 12 (actually surprised I did so well as I did not skate my best) but I have decided to make my own calculation based on just taking into account those who are really my level, so if you ignore the couple of elite youngsters and the two who skate in both comps (under level 6 and the 'any standard') I award myself 3rd of 8!!!

My conclusion - 18 - 25 year olds should be allowed to skate in adult comps but please, give them a seperate category and/or some provision to ensure adult learners are not having to skate against high level elite skaters who have just come to dance late.

[skatepixie]

Im 15. I started last year. For the reason you mentioned, as well as the fact that I want to push myself HARD and compete, land triples, and then coach, I wont be adult track until Im simply too old to do high level jumps, although by then I may not care because Ill be coaching. I also refuse to go ISI (there isnt any in my area anyways so I wouldnt be able to compete) even if it were possible because I hate age splits in standard track. Reason: So few low level teens that its not really a competition. Like I said, I want to push myself.

Sadly, if/when I do go adult, I wont be liked for it...

[flo]

Pixie: 25 is hardly "too old" for the upper level jumps. What level are you now?
Batikat - I know how you feel. I'm tired of former kid skaters competing at levels far beneath them. Just because they can enter a competition (because of not testing or loopholes) does not mean that they should. It's not that I don't want returning skaters to compete, just do it at the appropriate level. I'd like to see them take the adult tests and compete at the appropriate level.

[icenut84]

Originally posted by batikat
My conclusion - 18 - 25 year olds should be allowed to skate in adult comps but please, give them a seperate category and/or some provision to ensure adult learners are not having to skate against high level elite skaters who have just come to dance late.

I understand what you're saying, but not all 18-25 year olds will be elite freestylers. I'm 19 and if I was to enter a competition, I'd much rather be competing against adults of different ages that are of a closer level to me than all the elite skaters who i'd be put with just because of our similar ages, never mind our comparitive experiences. It works both ways. I'm sure if I did compete I wouldn't be the only person who started skating in my late teens.

[batikat]

Originally posted by icenut84
I understand what you're saying, but not all 18-25 year olds will be elite freestylers. I'm 19 and if I was to enter a competition, I'd much rather be competing against adults of different ages that are of a closer level to me than all the elite skaters who i'd be put with just because of our similar ages, never mind our comparitive experiences. It works both ways. I'm sure if I did compete I wouldn't be the only person who started skating in my late teens.

But the point is that without an 18 - 25 group you will always have to compete against the continuing 'elite' skaters anyway, whereas if there is an age category that most would fall into, then once you turn 25 and they have progressed up the standards, you will only have us ancient and decrepit skaters to compete against and can win everything!! :D ( we still lose! :( )

There is also a huge difference between those who started skating in their teens and those who start in their 30's and up. If you follow the lesson threads and you see what the oldies are doing (and how long it takes us) compared to you youngsters you will see what I mean!

I dont' know if there is any way a distinction could be made between continuing skaters and the late starters other than relying on the continuing skaters voluntarily skating up where possible when they know they outclass the competition. I doubt the girl I skated against had realised this would have been an option and I dont' begrudge her the opportunity to compete but we can't have been much of a challenge!!:D I feel honoured to have been in the same compettiion as her!!

skatepixie

There is high level adult Freeskating competition too you know - we have a 75 year old still landing all her singles and with the best sit spin I have seen on anyone of any age! And a fair number do axels and doubles. Of course if you compete freeskating you will be at this high level with them. I am sure you can recognise that for you to compete low level dance (even if you have not taken the higher level tests) would make it a non- competition at adult level. I am sure you will find that when you compete adult you will be welcomed but all the more so if you are competing at an appropriate level.

[rinsk]

I think one problem is the balance between number of competitors and level of skating. Our local adult competitions dropped the age limit from 25 to 18 last year and you should have seen the numbers go up: mainly in freestyle... I may have been the only under-25 competing dance: at an appropriate level I do believe.

I don't think I did too much to raise the bar on my own in dance or freestyle. However, many of the other freestyle events had much higher level skaters than in the previous year. I don't think they were sandbagging: they would have done okay but not fabulously in kid competitions at that level and these skaters have probably never competed adult or seen an adult competition before so how would they know what to expect? I would not be surprised if most of these younger girls move up a level or two for next year (as I get older, I'm a lot more motivated to work my way up through tests as I'm ready for them rather than holding off to compete at a lower level - I'd be more likely to compete as I go through my tests until I reach a level where my skating abilities are challenged by people with similar abilities).

Personally, I agree that if numbers warrant it, age divisions could be nice. Right now, a lot of adult competitions need to get the numbers first. And in a lot of ways, it is more interesting to have one larger event with an actual competition than several mini 2 or 3 person competitions.

[Mrs Redboots]

I think everybody is urging that, in the UK at any rate, "Young Adults" be considered a separate category, as they are in the USA. Where, incidentally, I think this young woman would have had to have skated "masters" or equivalent - there were too many loopholes in the rules yesterday. We were skating, in our free dance, against two couples who were way better than us (I was surprised how relatively close to them we actually finished, but in this case, skating first was an advantage), and can't compete against us in compulsory dance tests, but because they hadn't taken any free dance tests, they could enter that class. I do think tests are tests, and any dance tests ought to count!

And I should add that Batikat is too modest - okay, she didn't skate as well as she did at the British Championships, but she was pretty good, nevertheless, despite having a wretched headache.

[batikat]

Originally posted by rinsk
Right now, a lot of adult competitions need to get the numbers first. And in a lot of ways, it is more interesting to have one larger event with an actual competition than several mini 2 or 3 person competitions.

I think maybe we are lucky in that the adult competitions we have are pretty well attended to the extent that late entries can't be considered as it is a squeeze to fit in what we have with available ice time. Most Adult Freestyle competitions have age splits within the levels and this usually means there is not a problem in Freestyle as those who skated as kids are competing at the higher levels which most 'adult learners' never get to anyway. The recent Adult Championships had 3 age splits in Solo dance and had about 5 in each and numbers would have been higher if more notice had been given as it included an original dance which was a new event for many adults.

Personally I did not have a problem with skating against such a high level skater and thoroughly enjoyed watching her skate but it really meant it was not a competition for many of us, so much as a foregone conclusion. One of the problems for me with the particular competition I was at, is that the ability split is set at quite a high level. A lower level split, or an additional split to level 3 and under and a second at level 6 and under, would have given 3 good competitions with reasonable numbers. This would be more encouraging for more lower level adult skaters to start competing. I would still go to this competition anyway but some adults may feel it wouldn't be worth entering to compete against the young skaters. Even without continuing skaters there are adults who compete at both this level and skate up in the next level too, or stay in a level way after they could be moving up and be competitive at higher levels so there was no chance of a medal anyway but the people are nice and the event is fun. (and very well run!!! Thanks to the organisers)

[skatepixie]

I dont consider 25 too old. I meant that I wouldnt make the switchm, not that I would be too old at 25. Sorry. But, to me, i wouldnt want to compete against ppl with singles and doubles only, as Im going standard track to the senior level...Im not gonna just switch because I can and I dont understand why there are people who do it.

I havent passed prepre yet (I started in march). I have waltz and toe down pat (I can do um in combo too) and I would have a salchow if not for my former private coach....but thats another story for another day...

As for dance....not if you payed me...period...Im a huge MIF hater-they're soooo boring...the idea of doing patterns of them to music makes me want to rip my hair out. I mean, I know they are important, but I cant imagine giving up jumping...

[kitkat]

Originally posted by flo
Pixie: 25 is hardly "too old" for the upper level jumps. What level are you now?
Batikat - I know how you feel. I'm tired of former kid skaters competing at levels far beneath them. Just because they can enter a competition (because of not testing or loopholes) does not mean that they should. It's not that I don't want returning skaters to compete, just do it at the appropriate level. I'd like to see them take the adult tests and compete at the appropriate level.

Flo, I totally agree with this. I am all for former kid skaters returning to compete as adults, but for crying out loud please do it at appropiate levels. I have a lot of frustration with this issue, hopefully I will not vent too much....but here goes. I am an adult competitor and I have attended Adult Nationals the last three years. I am a Bronze I skater. I started skating at the age of 23. I was in group lessons for 2 1/2 years before deciding to get a coach and start testing and competing. When I started skating at the age of 23, I truly started with the basics such as swizzles, snow plow stops, etc. When I found out there were adult competetions and even an Adult Nationals I was thrilled that I could compete with people at my own age level, and skill level...or so I thought. At the 2001 Adult Nationals, I had only been taking private lessons for one year, and had passed my Adult Bronze test, though just barely, six months beforehand. I thought then , that there were some people skating bronze who should not have been, but it did not seem too overwhelming. I have continued improving a lot yet my placements especially at Nationals have not gone up...actually they have gone down. The number of "sandbaggers" in Bronze I seems to get worse every year. Skaters often list how long they have been skating in the program every year. Some people admit to skating as a kid, and often will tell how many years they skated as a kid and how many they skated as an adult. This year two of the medalists in Bronze I stated that they skated as a kid in the program. For example, one of the medalists said that she skated seven years as a kid and two as an adult. My question is why in the world is she skating Bronze? This is the lowest level at Adult Nationals, and some of the people who skate there truly started as an adult with swizzles, and such....though these people seem to be fewer and fewer each year in the Bronze I category. It is very frustrating to see people who skated as kids who have jumps bigger and better than many of the Adult Gold skaters only skating Bronze. In fact, the level of sandbagging was so high this past year that in one of the Bronze I groups someone who skated five years as a kid and four as an adult did not even make it out of the qualifying round. She was quite good, and I think in most years or in one of the other qualifying groups she would have easily made it to finals.


Well again, hope I didn't vent too much. It is just extremely frustrating to see "sandbagging" getting worse at Adult Nationals every year.

[flutzilla1]

I competed at my first AN this past year, and also noticed that there were several skaters in Bronze I whose skating quality was comparable to Gold level skaters at our local USFSA competitions. I wonder if a "restricted" vs "non-restricted or open" FS division could be considered for Bronze and Silver as it is for some of the standard-track levels at local competitions I have attended. That way, the playing field could be more level between those who have elements far beyond the requirements at Bronze and want to include them in programs (such as a sit/change sit or flying camel) and those whose skills are much closer to the test standard.

(edited because I finally found the right name of the regular track events I was looking for...has anyone else ever been to a competition where they have done these two categories within the same level?)

[flo]

It's a difficult situation. I started at the begining as well. I medaled in Bronze at Nationals, so moved up to silver. I medaled in Silver (4th), but did not have the skills to move up to gold, but skated up when I could in the local events. The year I medaled and the following years, the events were flooded with returning skaters. I asked them why they were at silver and they replied that they were trying to see where they were competitive, and that silver was a good place to begin again. Most of the returning medalists did test up for the following year. However the next year they were replaced by more returning skaters "testing the waters at silver". I don't think they were trying to sandbag, but were obviously competing well below the appropriate level. It's great to "test the waters' and find out where you'll be competitive, but do it at the local events, and go for your true level at nationals! I don't even want to compete in fs anymore.

Pixie, if you have not yet passed your tests, it may be a bit early to worry about the triples. Enjoy where you are now. By the time you get to adult nationals, the rules will have changed and changed again.

[skaternum]

Originally posted by skatepixie
Im 15. I started last year. For the reason you mentioned, as well as the fact that I want to push myself HARD and compete, land triples, and then coach, I wont be adult track until Im simply too old to do high level jumps, although by then I may not care because Ill be coaching.

<aside> Somehow I managed to overlook this thread for days. Where was I??

skatepixie, no offense, but I think you're putting the cart before the horse. You have to realize that very few skaters land triples, even with all the hard work in the universe. And those that do generally started skating a lot younger than you. I'm not trying to discourage you from trying, but I do think you're being pre-judgemental about both your skating future and what your skating goals will be when you're 25. (It's sort of like the 15 year old who says they're never going to have children, then turns out to be a happy mom at 25.) You may wind up doing fabulous triples. Heck, you may wind up being the first lady to land a quad in comptition! But I think it's a little early in your skating career to be making blanket statements that, in essence, you won't compete in adult comps until you stop doing triples. By the time you're 25, you may really want to continue or restart competing with people in your own age group.

BTW, I'm sure by now someone has pointed out to you that triples are now part of the Masters Mens event at Adult Nationals.

[icenut84]

Originally posted by batikat
I dont' know if there is any way a distinction could be made between continuing skaters and the late starters other than relying on the continuing skaters voluntarily skating up where possible when they know they outclass the competition. I doubt the girl I skated against had realised this would have been an option and I dont' begrudge her the opportunity to compete but we can't have been much of a challenge!!:D I feel honoured to have been in the same compettiion as her!!

Well - what about organisers taking into account all the tests a skater's passed, whether they're in that discipline or not? So e.g. if one skater wants to compete at the low level dance in a competition as they haven't tested higher than that, they're required to state all the skating tests they've passed, either as kids or adults. So they might say "gold freeskate" or whatever. Then the bigwigs could know the overall standard of all the competitors, and if there's half of them with a lot of previous experience in another discipline and the other half without, the class could be split in this way. That might make it fairer than lumping all the under-25s in with the elites, whether they're elite or not.

But I've never competed myself, though i can tell sandbagging is probably really annoying. There must be fair ways to solve it though.

[batikat]

Originally posted by icenut84
Well - what about organisers taking into account all the tests a skater's passed, whether they're in that discipline or not? .

It's a nice idea but it puts a a lot of strain on the already hard pressed competition secretaries (all volunteers). Plus schedules have to be decided and agreed by the referees before they are published so it is not so easy to decide to split a class after the entries are in. Closing dates are usually a month in advance and it just about gives time to get timetables agreed and info out to competitors. It would also mean additional expense for clubs in trophies. Also if there was just one person in that category (i.e high level in another dicipline)what would you do?

One idea I heard today was to go back to including a maximum field/dance moves test requirement which would stop high level Freeskaters competing low level dances but unfortunately also works against those adults who test field/dance moves a few levels ahead of their dance levels.

[Mrs Redboots]

Originally posted by batikat
One idea I heard today was to go back to including a maximum field/dance moves test requirement which would stop high level Freeskaters competing low level dances but unfortunately also works against those adults who test field/dance moves a few levels ahead of their dance levels. Which a lot of us do. Deep sigh. And then you also get the ridiculous situation where a girl who is about to compete in British Juniors is being asked to do all her Dance Moves tests, right back to Level 1.... I don't know. Maybe the system needs to be changed, like in Russia where, apparently, they don't have tests at all (or used not to), but if you made the podium in a class you had to move up a level and were not allowed to compete in that class again. Presumably podium-by-default wouldn't count.....

[flo]

The USFSA does check tests passed for Nationals entries. Some sectionals also verify the tests passed. The problem comes when the returning kids have not tested, or did not test up to their appropriate standard kid level when they were skating (for a variety of reasons). It's very common with the kids that they don't test up as aggressively. There's a great difference between the test and competiton elements at any given standard level. This is a major difference in kids and adult skaters. For the most part the adults are competing at their true test level. I don't think the majority of returning kids who do become adult skaters are intentionally sandbagging. The returning kids have trained and competed with this standard mindset, and it carries over when they become adult skaters.

[sk8er1964]

Originally posted by flo
The USFSA does check tests passed for Nationals entries. Some sectionals also verify the tests passed. The problem comes when the returning kids have not tested, or did not test up to their appropriate standard kid level when they were skating (for a variety of reasons). It's very common with the kids that they don't test up as aggressively. There's a great difference between the test and competiton elements at any given standard level. This is a major difference in kids and adult skaters. For the most part the adults are competing at their true test level. I don't think the majority of returning kids who do become adult skaters are intentionally sandbagging. The returning kids have trained and competed with this standard mindset, and it carries over when they become adult skaters.

I beg to differ a little here. When I was a kid, I passed my Preliminary freestyle test. Freestyle-wise, I could have passed my Juvenile test (there were no pre's back then), but I couldn't pass the required figures test. It was not uncommon to have kids who were good at freestlye but lousy at figures. I don't recall having the same level of skating above our test level back then as the kids do now. Basically, what happened with me and a lot of skaters like me, is that I skated up to my freestyle level at local competitions and was unable to attend the qualifying competitions at all - which was a bummer. Personally, I think the USFSA is wrong to let the kids compete so far above the test element requirements.

Now, for adults testing the waters, so to speak. I would have loved to have been able to do my first AN at Silver (if I had chosen to not disclose my ISI test level, I could have - who would have checked the ISI tests in my maiden name?). The reason? After a little more than a year back on the ice, there was no way I could be competitive at Gold (and I wasn't). I may not be competitive next year. I would have been competitive, with my one shaky axel and no doubles, as a Silver. However, the rules are the rules, and I played by them. I know that some of us don't, and that is unfortunate.

[flo]

Skater1964 There are returning skaters like yourself who may get the short end of the rules. And I do agree with you - there is a problem with the kids competing far above their test levels, but that's another problem in itself. And it sounds like it was not the USFSA test, but the ISI test that put you into gold. Why would you expect to be competitive a year after returning to the ice? There's nothing wrong with working up to being competitive. It's also not just the jumps. A couple of years ago the gold medalist in gold did not have an axel or any doubles. If you skated as a kid, you may have the advantage of great edges or other skills. Congratulations for being honest - that's worth more than any medal.

[Mel On Ice]

thanks for reminding me that I move up to Bronze II next year...

[sk8er1964]

Originally posted by flo
Why would you expect to be competitive a year after returning to the ice? There's nothing wrong with working up to being competitive.

Because I'm an over-achieving, perfectionist type :D :!: .

Actually, I hear what you are saying, and you are correct.