Brian Boitano's lutz

[Alexa]

I was watching some old footage of Orser/Boitano of the 1984 Olympics. In Orser's performance, or at least in exhibition, it appeared he did the triple lutz with his hand over his head. But I did not see Boitano do it.

How did it become the 'tano lutz? Was it a matter of Boitano starting it later but landing it competition, or perhaps Orser did not continue doing it?

[Impromptu]

If you have any of the women's events on that tape, you might also notice Tiffany Chin doing her double axel with one hand over her head.

Petra Burka of Canada was doing a double lutz with her hand in that position back in the 1960s. Perhaps it should be called the Burka Lutz, although I'm sure that skaters adding to the difficulty of their programs by jumping with one hand (or both hands) over their head long before that.

As far as I know the only reason it's called the Tano lutz is because Boitano had more of the media behind him saying that that is what the jump should be called. But he's not even close to being the person who invented that move.

[icenut84]

Interesting - I didn't know Boitano didn't invent it/wasn't the first to do it. I thought he did and that's why it was called that.

I'd like to see more skaters doing variations like this nowadays. A few years ago Irina Slutskaya did her double axel with her arm over her head, and it looked beautiful. I don't know why she doesn't do it anymore.

[Alexa]

Impromptu, your right...she did do that. Not sure why that didn't click with me--maybe since it was not a lutz.

I had always previously thought Boitano must have invented it or something, but evidently not. Thanks for the info.

[Ellyn]

The earliest program I've seen of Boitano's was a 1981 free program in which he did a normal triple lutz and a double lutz with one arm overhead, but more curved and balletic than his later version.

I believe he started doing the triple with arm overhead in 1986-87, and doing it out of a spread eagle in 87-88.

Arm variations on double jumps by high-level skaters were very common long before Boitano came along. On triples, less common.

[Sylvia]

Originally posted by Ellyn
I believe he started doing the triple with arm overhead in 1986-87, and doing it out of a spread eagle in 87-88.


I thought what makes it a 'Tano lutz is the spread eagle entrance? Ryan Jahnke started including a triple lutz with his arm overhead this past season -- it just soars! -- but he uses the traditional back outside edge gliding entry into the lutz.

[Skatingsarah]

I wish skaters would still do moves like that, its not that it isnt possible with the talent that is going on right now. Come to think of it with the new system in place it would be benifical to do something like a spread eagle or and arm over your head for a double axel or lutz in the short. If everyone were to do it, technically the skater with the spread eagle or arm over there head would get more credit for that element because of the higher technical difficulty.... It is beyond me why there arent more skaters do it..:arrow:

[Stormy]

Dosen't Brian do it with his left arm over his head, as opposed to the easier right arm? I thought that was what made it different.

[Sing_Alto]

The 'Tano is only a 'Tano when it's a triple Lutz with the arm over the head. Brian was the first to do it, and still the only to do it consistently. Any other jump with the arm over the head is simply that jump with the arm over the head, i.e. a double toe-loop with the arm held over the head. It's not a 'Tano.

[blades]

:roll:

[skatepixie]

It started back when he was a beginner. there would be contests on fridays and u would be told right then and there what to do. Everybody won once. That was the idea. So one night it was a lutz with the arm up...

[Spark]

More skaters would be doing these variations if they got extra credit for them. I think Elena Sokolova performed a double axel at the 98 Olympics with her arm over her head, and the commentators, Sandra Bezic and Scott Hamilton, called it an " almost irresponsible risk" because the jump becomes much more difficult to land and that extra difficulty is rarely recognized by the judges.

Josee Chouinard used to do double lutzes with both arms over her head, back in the days when women weren't allowed a triple solo jump in the short.

[icenut84]

Originally posted by Skatingsarah
I wish skaters would still do moves like that, its not that it isnt possible with the talent that is going on right now. Come to think of it with the new system in place it would be benifical to do something like a spread eagle or and arm over your head for a double axel or lutz in the short. If everyone were to do it, technically the skater with the spread eagle or arm over there head would get more credit for that element because of the higher technical difficulty.... It is beyond me why there arent more skaters do it..:arrow:

I agree. Especially someone like Irina, since I've seen her do it on her double axel (99 GPF? maybe) and it looked great. But it does add difficulty, and I suspect the majority of skaters (esp. in the SP) are too concerned with landing the jump to think about learning to do that too. It'd be very interesting to see though.

I'd also like to see them do things like spread eagles before/after, like you mentioned and Brian did so well on his lutz. A couple do - Shen & Zhao did spread eagles into double axels back into spread eagles in their LP, and Elena Sokolova did her double axel into a spread eagle in her SP.

[Alexa]

Originally posted by Sing_Alto
The 'Tano is only a 'Tano when it's a triple Lutz with the arm over the head. Brian was the first to do it, and still the only to do it consistently. Any other jump with the arm over the head is simply that jump with the arm over the head, i.e. a double toe-loop with the arm held over the head. It's not a 'Tano.

I could have sworn Orser did the lutz with the arm over his head. The only other possible jump it could have been was a flip, but I think it was a lutz. However at the same competition (84 Olympics) Boitano was not doing this, or if he did I missed it. That's why I wasn't sure how it became the 'tano.

[Sing_Alto]

Originally posted by Alexa
I could have sworn Orser did the lutz with the arm over his head. The only other possible jump it could have been was a flip, but I think it was a lutz. However at the same competition (84 Olympics) Boitano was not doing this, or if he did I missed it. That's why I wasn't sure how it became the 'tano.

I don't intend to come off as sounding snobby here, but I really doubt that it was a Lutz that Orser was doing. The 'Tano takes a lot of strength, and even Boitano was unable to do it consistently until he built up his muscles a bit more. Orser, even as an amateur, is not one of the more muscular skaters.

[Jinx1983]

Originally posted by Sing_Alto
The 'Tano is only a 'Tano when it's a triple Lutz with the arm over the head. Brian was the first to do it, and still the only to do it consistently. Any other jump with the arm over the head is simply that jump with the arm over the head, i.e. a double toe-loop with the arm held over the head. It's not a 'Tano.

Hm, I'm not sure I understand the logic here. If adding a revolution to a move that others were already doing grants the skater naming-the-move priviledges, then why don't we call a quad toe a "Browning Toe" and a quad salchow a "Goebel sal"?

Seems to me that the only difference between a Tano Lutz and a Mike Pike is the number of obsessed fans proclaiming an old move is new and different.

[Sylvia]

Originally posted by Sing_Alto
The 'Tano is only a 'Tano when it's a triple Lutz with the arm over the head. Brian was the first to do it, and still the only to do it consistently.

I would say Ryan Jahnke's 'Tano triple lutz is as consistent as it gets these days. He successfully landed it at least 5 times in competition in the 2002-03 season (including his free skates at Nationals, Worlds qualifying and FS), and also has it planned in his new FS (to Brazilian music) for this season. Can't wait to see Jahnke skate at Campbell's and Skate America in OCtober!

[Sing_Alto]

Originally posted by Jinx1983
Hm, I'm not sure I understand the logic here. If adding a revolution to a move that others were already doing grants the skater naming-the-move priviledges, then why don't we call a quad toe a "Browning Toe" and a quad salchow a "Goebel sal"?

Seems to me that the only difference between a Tano Lutz and a Mike Pike is the number of obsessed fans proclaiming an old move is new and different.

Boitano took an established jump and added a twist to it by putting his arm over his head. No one had done the triple Lutz with their arm over their head before. Brian started doing it consistently, and it became a trademark jump for him. E.M. Swift of Sports Illustrated dubbed it the 'Tano, not Boitano or his "obsessed" fans. He's been doing the jump for over 17 years. It's been called the 'Tano for almost that long. Isn't it a little late to make a big issue out of this now?

[Rogue]

By the same token, Denise was not the first to do the Biellman spin. She was the one who popularized it.

[Alexa]

Originally posted by Sing_Alto
I don't intend to come off as sounding snobby here, but I really doubt that it was a Lutz that Orser was doing. The 'Tano takes a lot of strength, and even Boitano was unable to do it consistently until he built up his muscles a bit more. Orser, even as an amateur, is not one of the more muscular skaters.

You are not coming off as a snob--thanks for the info. I am not a jump expert, and it is possible it was not a lutz Orser completed. It was definitely a flip or a lutz based on what I saw of the entrance into the jump. At any rate, it was just a question, and after seeing Orser do at least a similar style jump, I was wondering what made it the 'tano. Not that I really care about who gets credit for the jump, just wondered how it came to be named after Boitano, and you have answered that for me. Thanks!

[Alexeiskate]

I'm pretty sure Orser did a 2flip with one arm overhead in his 84 short program.

And don't be deceived by Orser's thin frame. I'm sure he had a lot of muscle strength in those legs. Viacheslav Zagorodniuk had a Tano's lutz, and his body type was more similar to Orser than Boitano's.

[loveskating]

Well, whoever did it first, the spreadeagle into the Tano lutz is a Boitano TM ...he did it consistently, over a long period of time, its very hard, hard to do steps or ANY element into any 3 jumps, obviously, and his lutz was HUGE.

I did see him try to do a 3 lutz without the arm up once, and it was not perfect, if I recall...guess one gets used to the harder thing, and then can't easily get back to the easier thing, eh, since the timing especialy on the 3 jumps is so stressed?

One thing I always loved about Boitano and never qot bored with was the quality of most of his elements! Until Kulik and Yagudin, there was no better 3 axle out there (great technique and HUGE)...so along with his death drop, spreadeagles and the Tano Lutz, there were at least 4 elements in all his programs that were spectacular, the best at the time.

Also, why does the name Orser always come up when the name Boitano comes up, ROFLMAO! Will it pass with time?

[blades]

8-)

the "tano" lutz isn't about strength...it's about coordination and balance...

as far as bb being the only one to do a "real" "tano lutz"...whatever...eye of the beholding fan and all that...when petra burka did the same move in the 60's on a double, it was of equil difficulty considering the level of jumps at that point in time...and both have been a pleasure to watch..

[loveskating]

Originally posted by blades
8-)

the "tano" lutz isn't about strength...it's about coordination and balance...

as far as bb being the only one to do a "real" "tano lutz"...whatever...eye of the beholding fan and all that...when petra burka did the same move in the 60's on a double, it was of equil difficulty considering the level of jumps at that point in time...and both have been a pleasure to watch..

Competitively, sure...but are you saying that 2 jumps are as hard as 3 jumps? Somehow, I don't think so. Almost every skater at my kid's home rink who kept skating could do several 2 jumps; only a few could do even a 3 toe loop!

Are you saying that a spreadeagle into ANY 3 jump is easy and should not give the skater more points?

Let's take the example of Irina Slutskaya being the first to land a 3 lutz/3 loop...which she has not landed in several years...if someone else comes along, like say Beatrice Lang, and consistently lands a 3 lutz/3 loop, then its Lang who is going to be associated more with a 3 lutz/3 loop.

Someone said it...Bielman was not the first to do the Bielman spin, she was the first to popularize it.

Who cares about "naming priviledges". I don't. Call it whatever the heck you like...just don't call a side catch spin a front catch spin, for they are OBVIOUSLY different.

[blades]

8-)

good grief!:frus:...did you not see the reference to the '60's and "the level of jumps at that point in time"...

in ten years we might see novice skaters doing quads...who knows???

what petra did during her era was very inovative and difficult...

same could be said for button's double axel back in the late fourties...