Marina Zueva still at DSC?

[tulip]

I was looking at this newsletter on this DSC website http://www.dscclub.com/pdf_files/spin/spin2003-05.pdf (dated May 28) and it says that Marina is a "Guest Professional" at DSC for an unknown period of time. Does anyone know what her plans are after DSC finds a replacement?

[Sho]

From what I know she's still in Detroit
p.s it's Zoueva!! (easy mistake tho!;) )

[Crush]

From my understanding, Marina is allowed to coach at DSC until the Lake Placid dance competition. After that, she can no longer coach at that arena. After the summer, both Igor and Marina will be leaving DSC as will all of their dance teams and will be moving to train at another location in michigan.

[Leela]

How foolish were the Detroit Skating Club's Board of Directors to make a decision re: Marina's contract that would cause the destruction of the club's successful dance program :roll: :evil:

[icedancer2]

Originally posted by Leela
How foolish were the Detroit Skating Club's Board of Directors to make a decision re: Marina's contract that would cause the destruction of the club's successful dance program :roll: :evil:

I would agree -- what happened there?

[butterfly]

Originally posted by Leela
How foolish were the Detroit Skating Club's Board of Directors to make a decision re: Marina's contract that would cause the destruction of the club's successful dance program :roll: :evil: This was not just about Marina, and besides I admire DSC for standing for good behavior. DSC will be losing substantial coaches with Johnny Johns and Igor leaving, but Marina will not be missed. I say Kudos to the DSC and I hope this is an opportunity for other coaches to come to Detroit and for those already here to excel. Remember we can all be replaced even at the highest levels.

[tdnuva]

Originally posted by butterfly
This was not just about Marina, and besides I admire DSC for standing for good behavior. DSC will be losing substantial coaches with Johnny Johns and Igor leaving, but Marina will not be missed. I say Kudos to the DSC and I hope this is an opportunity for other coaches to come to Detroit and for those already here to excel. Remember we can all be replaced even at the highest levels.

As I'm not in America and not skating I am perhaps not that much inside the scene. Could you tell me what is behind that story? It seems M. Zoueva is accused of something but I can't figure out what.....

This is real interest and not a try to start bashing...

[icedancer2]

I am curious also -- I skated at DSC as a kid and went to visit one day last summer and was most impressed with the program there!

Hard to think of Johnny Johns leaving, too -- he's been there forever (I knew him when we were kids, but he doesn't remember me -- oh, well!).

What gives?

[lotusland]

Butterfly, you seem to know what this is all about. I hate it when there is a tiny bit of info thrown out and we all have to guess what the "full story" is. But I'll bite ...

Having watched Marina coach (in the past), I'll guess that the Board at the DSC has a problem with "Marina's coaching style." When Marina was at the Minto Club in Ottawa, she usually stood off the ice at rinkside and shouted her somewhat colourful instructions across the ice. She wasn't particularily tactful in her comments to skaters, nor did she care to be.

Am I warm? ;)

[Crush]

Just to clarify, Johnny Johns is still under contract with DSC and is staying there.

With regards to Marina, the board at DSC has said that there is a large number of reasons that they are not renewing her contract. However, even the board refused to disclose those reasons as they said it was their right to do so. Anything you hear about why she was let go by dsc is heirsay as neither Igor, Marina, nor their students were told as to why her contract was not renewed.

[sonora]

Lotusland:

It was not her coaching style.

[mountains4me]

There are many coaching styles out there. I doubt if a board would get too involved in monitoring "style". It seems that it would be up to the skater or parent to simply use a different coach if there is a problem with the student/coach relationship. Marina seems to be a unique personality who's style has apparently been successful in the past. Some skaters are not intimidated by personalities.

[NorthernLite]

Is the reason related to an earlier rumor? Because it takes two to tango, but if the above posts are correct, only she was singled out. (Not that *that* would surprise me - I saw the same thing happen to a woman at a workplace of mine.)

Anyway, I assume they're going to Onyx.

And speaking of Michigan's various Peyton-Place rinks, is that guy from A2 at DSC now?

[Aaron W]

Igor is leaving the DSC, but will be remaining in the Detroit area with all of his dance teams. I was told where they were relocating, but of course now I can't remember. I don't think it was the Onyx though (but my memory is terrible).

As far as Marina, I got the impression that her viewpoints and opinions were causing friction among others in the club and the DSC decided it was best to go back to the way things were before she arrived. Unfortunately that won't be the case since Igor won't remain there now that she'll be gone soon.

[Skatingsarah]

I think its good the coaches stick together some clubs arent like that at all. On the other hand where is Igor going to find someone willing to take the place of marina and a person of her calibre to do it. Also about the previous comment about her coaching I have seen her coach and she definetly 'speaks her mind' But her students are sooo disiplined because of it! The nice gentle soft spoken coaches dont have to much success. You have to divide from professional and personal. Plus by the looks of it the teams that she is helping out with are doing very well. So it must be something about her coaching style if you ask me.

[NorthernLite]

Originally posted by Aaron W
Igor is leaving the DSC, but will be remaining in the Detroit area with all of his dance teams. I was told where they were relocating, but of course now I can't remember.

Many, many rinks in the area ... Troy? St. Clair? Novi? Fraser? Farm. Hills? Royal Oak? Etc., etc.

I've been wondering what Marina thinks about Fedor doing pairs. (Or if she had something to do with it? Suggested it to Callaghan?)

[Greg D]

Is Fedor leaving with mom????

[quark]

Originally posted by NorthernLite
Many, many rinks in the area ... Troy? St. Clair? Novi? Fraser? Farm. Hills? Royal Oak? Etc., etc.They're going to Etc.:twisted:

I hesitate to get involved in this thread, but let me ask a question: "Should the personal morals and interactions between adults determine their employment status?" Recently, a major University fired a football coach and another fired their basketball coach over actions that brought discredit to their organizations. How far should an organization go in accepting non-coaching behaviour that causes internal or public stress, even when this behaviour has nothing to do with their job qualifications? And, is it a topic that can/should be discussed in a forum such as this?

Johnny Johns was disiplined by the Board of the DSC, for reasons undisclosed. I'm sure John's ego took a slap, and it wouldn't surprise me if he chose to leave the DSC after his contract expires.

The following are my opinions only:

1) Marina Zoueva has not been singled out, and is not a victim.
2) Igor will follow Johns, not Marina, if he leaves the DSC.
3) Marina is not a competent compulsory dance coach, and for that reason alone, her contract should not be renewed by the DSC. But Igor makes that determination, not the DSC.
4) Igor let Elizabeth Coates go, and thereby cut off a critical member of the team that made the DSC great in ice dance. Marina has not been successful as her replacement.

Whatever happens, decisions by the Board of the DSC over the last few years demonstrate that their first priority is to provide a rink environment where all ages can concentrate on achieving their goals in figure skating! They've attracted top coaches before, and if they have to, I believe they can do it again.

[Trillian]

Originally posted by Greg D
Is Fedor leaving with mom????

Fedor is training at Onyx, not the DSC, in the first place, so I doubt he's going anywhere. It sounds like even if Marina isn't going to be at Onyx specifically, she'll be at another Detroit area rink. And even if that weren't the case, Fedor has trained away from his mother in the past (he spent some time in New Jersey), so I don't see why he wouldn't do that again. (Otoh, considering his girlfriend will probably be going wherever mom goes, that might be another story. But a moot point if she's not leaving the area.)

[lazenpa]

i beleive igor is going to canton the artic edge

[Roseline]

Originally posted by lazenpa
i beleive igor is going to canton the artic edge

They don't have a skating club there, so will his skaters continue to represent the DSC and just be coached on privately-purchased ice? That is what I would assume would happen.

My sister and nieces live in that area, and I hear from them that the Arctic Edge is nothing special -- just a hockey rink with hard hockey ice. It is interesting that he would choose such a place when the Detroit area has so many nicer rinks that would be more well-suited to figure skating and ice dancing.

[butterfly]

Originally posted by quark
They're going to Etc.:twisted:

I hesitate to get involved in this thread, but let me ask a question: "Should the personal morals and interactions between adults determine their employment status?" Recently, a major University fired a football coach and another fired their basketball coach over actions that brought discredit to their organizations. How far should an organization go in accepting non-coaching behaviour that causes internal or public stress, even when this behaviour has nothing to do with their job qualifications? And, is it a topic that can/should be discussed in a forum such as this?

Johnny Johns was disiplined by the Board of the DSC, for reasons undisclosed. I'm sure John's ego took a slap, and it wouldn't surprise me if he chose to leave the DSC after his contract expires.

The following are my opinions only:

1) Marina Zoueva has not been singled out, and is not a victim.
2) Igor will follow Johns, not Marina, if he leaves the DSC.
3) Marina is not a competent compulsory dance coach, and for that reason alone, her contract should not be renewed by the DSC. But Igor makes that determination, not the DSC.
4) Igor let Elizabeth Coates go, and thereby cut off a critical member of the team that made the DSC great in ice dance. Marina has not been successful as her replacement.

Whatever happens, decisions by the Board of the DSC over the last few years demonstrate that their first priority is to provide a rink environment where all ages can concentrate on achieving their goals in figure skating! They've attracted top coaches before, and if they have to, I believe they can do it again. I couldn't agree with you more. It is time that a little integrity and good behavior be expected of the coaches that train young athletes. Whatever they lawfully wish to do in their private lives is none of our business, but in the rink and on the job they need to act like responsibile adults.

I also agree that losing Liz Coates was a terrible blow to ice dance at DSC. Maybe she will come back now :).

[speedy]

Sheesh, were the coaches caught doing the nasty on the ice one night or what? :lol: If I read one more Zoueva thread that makes vague references to morals and adult behavior... :roll: Of course this topic probably falls under the category of "don't talk bad about the coaches on the board," so never mind. ;)

[NorthernLite]

Yeah, maybe DSC could have kept her but just made her wear a big scarlet A around the rink. :roll: :P

[tulip]

I assume because Johns is staying at DSC that he and his wife are still together.

?

[butterfly]

Originally posted by tulip
I assume because Johns is staying at DSC that he and his wife are still together.

? I believe that Johns is leaving DSC as well.

[Anjelica]

Well my congratulations to the DSC Board of Directors for having the courage to do the right thing! Way to go!

[Aaron W]

Originally posted by butterfly
I also agree that losing Liz Coates was a terrible blow to ice dance at DSC. Maybe she will come back now :).

Hahaha. I told one of the DSC people while I was there this past weekend that I thought they should get Liz Coates back. I guess great minds think alike! ;)

:)

Originally posted by butterfly
I believe that Johns is leaving DSC as well.

Yes, I believe you're correct from what I was told. Not sure if Mitch Moyer will end up taking over, but I guess he thinks he'll get Johns' spot.

*****Edited to add that now I'm hearing it's still up in the air as to whether he'll stay or leave. Always something interesting going on, lol.*****

[dr.frog]

Originally posted by quark
I hesitate to get involved in this thread, but let me ask a question: "Should the personal morals and interactions between adults determine their employment status?"

In general, no, but.... many organizations have policies that explicitly forbid, uh, "interactions" between a manager or a person otherwise in a position of authority, and individuals they supervise or do business with as contractors or suppliers, because of the potential for abuse and harassment. Even if the parties are consenting adults, it's still against company policy. The ethical thing to do is to terminate your professional relationship with this person before beginning a personal one.

[sonora]

And it's always a no-no to carry on those intimate parts of the relationship in front of one's clientele, particularly clientele of tender years.

[sk8er1964]

Originally posted by Roseline
They don't have a skating club there, so will his skaters continue to represent the DSC and just be coached on privately-purchased ice? That is what I would assume would happen.

My sister and nieces live in that area, and I hear from them that the Arctic Edge is nothing special -- just a hockey rink with hard hockey ice. It is interesting that he would choose such a place when the Detroit area has so many nicer rinks that would be more well-suited to figure skating and ice dancing.

The ice there is ok - 2 Olympic sixed rinks. Arctic Edge and it's sister rink Arctic Coliseum in Chelsea have been mostly hockey oriented. They're both pretty new rinks, and they both tend to get really hard ice in the winter, at least they have in the past. However, a coach formerly from Ann Arbor FSC (I assume he's left A2) is starting a new club at Canton, and maybe in conjunction with Chelsea. I'm not sure how it's going, but he told me they will soon be a provisional club.

Don't know anything about the DSC situation - not really in my sphere of interest.

[aragorn]

Despite their claims to act in the "best interests" of the Detroit Skating CLub, the DSC Board of Directors and its officers are destroying the very popular and highly successful Ice Dance program at DSC. By refusing to listen to and respect the needs of the Ice Dance Director Igor Shpilband, the DSC Board is forcing him and his elite skaters to seek ice time elsewhere. The recent, ill-informed decisions of the DSC Board to refuse a contract to Director Shpilband's hand-picked, Olympic and World-level coaching partner, Marina Zoueva, and also, just recently, to declare that she can no longer teach at the DSC for the rest of the summer session, has put the Ice Dance program at DSC in serious jeopardy. These unfortunate decisions, in direct opposition to the wishes of all of the ice dancers, their parents and students of both Igor and Marina, will surely force Igor and Marina and their dance students to seek ice time at another rink which will value their coaching skills and dedication to the sport. Is this a result which is in the best interests of the Detroit Skating Club? I think not. It is outrageous the elected board and its officers have acted in this manner. The voting membership of the club elected the members of the board to represent them, to act in a responsible way and to make decisions that are for the well-being and success of the club. Their actions and decisions regarding this one important issue are clearly detrimental to the future well-being and success of the club. In my opinion, the direction the voting membership of DSC should now take is to recall the current board and hold a new election. Something has to be done to right the wrong that is being perpretated in the name of "best interests" of the club. The elected members of the board and its officers have to be held accountable for their actions and their resignations should be demanded.

[jp1andOnly]

i have seen similar things happen at smaller clubs by the volunteer board of directors. Because they didn't like certain thngs which affected their "own" child they often would attack others and bring about things that I personally did not suit the best interest of the club. It's frustrating to watch but its a valuable learning experience. In a few years the board will be gone and perhaps they can start over. In the meantime, hopefully the club will not suffer too greatly from the losses. I know many clubs that have once had successful programs basically disolve because they didn't have the coaching base, atmosphere, etc to continue. I'm sure DSC will do fine and hopefully their ice dance program can rebound.

[butterfly]

Originally posted by aragorn
Despite their claims to act in the "best interests" of the Detroit Skating CLub, the DSC Board of Directors and its officers are destroying the very popular and highly successful Ice Dance program at DSC. By refusing to listen to and respect the needs of the Ice Dance Director Igor Shpilband, the DSC Board is forcing him and his elite skaters to seek ice time elsewhere. The recent, ill-informed decisions of the DSC Board to refuse a contract to Director Shpilband's hand-picked, Olympic and World-level coaching partner, Marina Zoueva, and also, just recently, to declare that she can no longer teach at the DSC for the rest of the summer session, has put the Ice Dance program at DSC in serious jeopardy. These unfortunate decisions, in direct opposition to the wishes of all of the ice dancers, their parents and students of both Igor and Marina, will surely force Igor and Marina and their dance students to seek ice time at another rink which will value their coaching skills and dedication to the sport. Is this a result which is in the best interests of the Detroit Skating Club? I think not. It is outrageous the elected board and its officers have acted in this manner. The voting membership of the club elected the members of the board to represent them, to act in a responsible way and to make decisions that are for the well-being and success of the club. Their actions and decisions regarding this one important issue are clearly detrimental to the future well-being and success of the club. In my opinion, the direction the voting membership of DSC should now take is to recall the current board and hold a new election. Something has to be done to right the wrong that is being perpretated in the name of "best interests" of the club. The elected members of the board and its officers have to be held accountable for their actions and their resignations should be demanded. I applaud the Board of Directors! Don't blame them for the actions of someone else. You say that "elected members should be held accountable for their actons" and I say that coaches should be held accountable for their actions as well.

If anyone is familiar with Igor or Marina they know they impose rules and demands on their skaters and woe be the skater that disobeys. The skater knows there are consequences. Do coaches who have some recognition think they are above expectations and consequences? It is simple, if any coach does not act professionally and does not teach students well they risk being ask to leave. The decisions that a board makes may not always be popular but this is what boards do. Igor has decided to leave, he hasn't been ask to leave. This is a choice for Igor. I'm sure that another rink will appreciate Igor's talent so no big deal. It is regretful that the skaters and their parents will be inconvenienced due to the decisions made by coaches, but what's new.
The Board of Directors are not outrageous they are courageous.

[Skatewind]

Originally posted by butterfly
The decisions that a board makes may not always be popular but this is what boards do.
It also sounds like the decision that was made was made with the best overall interests & well being of the skating club in mind, not only the special interests of one group like dance. Coaches at this level are being paid well to teach & coach professionally. If that is not what's happened & there were clear violations of standard conflict of interest policies, one can hardly blame the skating club for it.

[Leela]

The board "courageous"?---I don't think so. More like ridiculous. They decided that pinning the scarlet letter on and ousting the "evil" Marina,
(the evil Johnny still has a few years left on his contract, so they couldn't kick him out yet) was more important to the well-being of a few of the members and club employees, than keeping the world-class ice dance program at the club. After Igor explained to the board that Marina was crucial to his program, they still decided not to renew her contract, and simply told Igor to find a new coaching partner! Yeah right, in June find a new coaching partner of the caliber and experience of Marina to leave their present program and relocate :roll: Obviously not going to happen. Yet when faced with the prospect that Igor might then leave too, they were so arrogant as to think, "Oh he'll never leave---he'll never get such a good deal anywhere else!" Well of course, Igor and his students had no other choice but to leave and seek another rink where both Igor and Marina could work with their very seriously competitive students. So now Marina can't even finish out the summer session, which means that the students will have to buy additional ice elsewhere, after having already paid for the summer session at DSC.
DSC will survive, but they'll be hard-pressed to come up with a dance program such as they had under Igor. Liz Coates is a great tech coach, but she's not a choreographer, so even if she were to return, she couldn't do it on her own. I'm sure the club will come up with something, but it's a shame that this couldn't have been worked out "diplomatically" instead of the win/lose, all or nothing, big gun method of problem solving. :(

[BJY4EVR]

Well said Leela!

[butterfly]

Originally posted by Leela
The board "courageous"?---I don't think so. More like ridiculous. They decided that pinning the scarlet letter on and ousting the "evil" Marina,
(the evil Johnny still has a few years left on his contract, so they couldn't kick him out yet) was more important to the well-being of a few of the members and club employees, than keeping the world-class ice dance program at the club. After Igor explained to the board that Marina was crucial to his program, they still decided not to renew her contract, and simply told Igor to find a new coaching partner! Yeah right, in June find a new coaching partner of the caliber and experience of Marina to leave their present program and relocate :roll: Obviously not going to happen. Yet when faced with the prospect that Igor might then leave too, they were so arrogant as to think, "Oh he'll never leave---he'll never get such a good deal anywhere else!" Well of course, Igor and his students had no other choice but to leave and seek another rink where both Igor and Marina could work with their very seriously competitive students. So now Marina can't even finish out the summer session, which means that the students will have to buy additional ice elsewhere, after having already paid for the summer session at DSC.
DSC will survive, but they'll be hard-pressed to come up with a dance program such as they had under Igor. Liz Coates is a great tech coach, but she's not a choreographer, so even if she were to return, she couldn't do it on her own. I'm sure the club will come up with something, but it's a shame that this couldn't have been worked out "diplomatically" instead of the win/lose, all or nothing, big gun method of problem solving. :( Well, looks like they called Igor's bluff. He may think twice before he puts his career on the line for someone like Marina again. I am always amazed at the logic that expecting coaches to behave should be ignored because of convenience to a team or threats of leaving by a coach. The program did not get to be prestigious with Marina. It was already a prestigious program when she came and just look where it is now. Put the blame where the blame should be. Liz Coates put the teams in contention with her knowledge of compulsories, Igor with his superb choreography and btw, he still does the choreography bottom line. Marina teaches compulsories and Igor's teams are now known for their bad compulsories. Those are facts. I say there is a time when diplomacy should not be used, especially when it is used to sweep bad behavior under the rug. Coaches are the employees not the boss. The club will go on and excellent coaches will be hired.

[Chantecler]

Originally posted by Leela
The board "courageous"?---I don't think so. More like ridiculous. They decided that pinning the scarlet letter on and ousting the "evil" Marina,
(the evil Johnny still has a few years left on his contract, so they couldn't kick him out yet) was more important to the well-being of a few of the members and club employees, than keeping the world-class ice dance program at the club. :(

So a scarlet letter..an evil Marina and evil Johnny and Igor.....what a tangled triangle.

Is the DSC a club which sees its self as made up of upper middle class familys who are shocked by the goings on of the hired hands ?

Ah..ice dance the dark side as they say.

[speedy]

It appears that the mindset that some of these coaches have, that they run the clubs and rinks and basically the world of skating, is one major reason for a lot of the "innapropriate," arrogant and sometimes criminal behaviors we've heard about and read about lately. I have no idea what happened in this case at DSC, although my previous half-sarcastic question about it seems to be vaguely affirmed in some of these posts, but if standards of conduct were violated, especially if students were somehow exposed to it, then what choice would this board have other than to say buh bye? If the behavior was ignored or covered up, then you've got people screaming about how these clubs will allow coaches to get away with anything in the name of keeping them around, besides the fact that they could get in even more legal or financial trouble if something occurs that would bring about lawsuits. I've seen people fired for doing dumb things with each other at work, nothing new there. Most normal businesses don't tolerate that...why should a skating club? If coaches actually behaved inappropriately, especially at the rink, why would parents WANT them kept around? That's the kind of attitude that blows me away. What kind of lesson does that teach your child if these coaches are allowed to get away with bad behavior? Sucking up to these coaches and allowing them to perpetuate their behavior in the name of some kind of "prestige" for your club is ridiculous and sick. If Igor "handpicked" someone that blew her chance, so be it. If he wants to throw a tantrum and take his ball to another court, that's his prerogative. It's also the prerogative of the board to say sayonara. It's obvious from this thread that whichever way this board went it was going to make people unhappy. If your child is a student of one of these coaches, I would be much more upset with the COACH than the board for this turn of events. :roll:

[Leela]

Originally posted by butterfly
Well, looks like they called Igor's bluff. He may think twice before he puts his career on the line for someone like Marina again. I am always amazed at the logic that expecting coaches to behave should be ignored because of convenience to a team or threats of leaving by a coach. The program did not get to be prestigious with Marina. It was already a prestigious program when she came and just look where it is now. Put the blame where the blame should be. Liz Coates put the teams in contention with her knowledge of compulsories, Igor with his superb choreography and btw, he still does the choreography bottom line. Marina teaches compulsories and Igor's teams are now known for their bad compulsories. Those are facts. I say there is a time when diplomacy should not be used, especially when it is used to sweep bad behavior under the rug. Coaches are the employees not the boss. The club will go on and excellent coaches will be hired.

Butterfly, Butterfly, really...
"Well, looks like they called Igor's bluff. "
Sorry, no bluff here. Igor said he needed Marina, board said tough, Igor said good-bye.

"expecting coaches to behave"
We're talking personal lives of consenting adults here.

"Marina teaches compulsories and Igor's teams are now known for their bad compulsories."
I believe Igor and Marina's teams are doing quite well.

"I say there is a time when diplomacy should not be used, especially when it is used to sweep bad behavior under the rug. Coaches are the employees not the boss."
No diplomacy? Are you related to George Bush by any chance? Again, we're talking about consenting adults, and coaches are also human beings. A diplomatic compromise doesn't mean "sweeping bad behavior under the rug." It means seeking a solution to a complex problem of conflicting needs and expectations where everyone gives up a little and everyone gets some part of their needs met. But the board was unwilling to consider such a solution, (for whatever reason) and so you got the all-our-way-or-nothing method.

[blades]

8-)

welllll...it goes on...coaches that are above their own rules...we just canned a football coach here at the university of washington for his third disgression...gambling this time...and he's upset for losing his job!...how dare they?!...and he's sueing!...

seems that leela and others think a supercoach is more valuable than integrety...sorry babe...without that...you have nothing...

dsc will survive...ice dance will survive and so will the coaches...and maybe everyone just might learn something from this...naaaaaaa!

[butterfly]

Originally posted by Leela
Butterfly, Butterfly, really...
"Well, looks like they called Igor's bluff. "
Sorry, no bluff here. Igor said he needed Marina, board said tough, Igor said good-bye.

"expecting coaches to behave"
We're talking personal lives of consenting adults here.

"Marina teaches compulsories and Igor's teams are now known for their bad compulsories."
I believe Igor and Marina's teams are doing quite well.

"I say there is a time when diplomacy should not be used, especially when it is used to sweep bad behavior under the rug. Coaches are the employees not the boss."
No diplomacy? Are you related to George Bush by any chance? Again, we're talking about consenting adults, and coaches are also human beings. A diplomatic compromise doesn't mean "sweeping bad behavior under the rug." It means seeking a solution to a complex problem of conflicting needs and expectations where everyone gives up a little and everyone gets some part of their needs met. But the board was unwilling to consider such a solution, (for whatever reason) and so you got the all-our-way-or-nothing method. I will respond to only one of your comments: If these actions took place outside the rink and not related to skating I agree it would be their own personal, dirty business. BUT, it didn't!

I suppose it is old fashion to believe that good behavior is a reflection of who we are and that we may be influencing not only the young people we work with but people we are unaware that may be watching. Yes, we are only human, but as humans we need to learn to be responsible for our actions.

[Clarice]

When I taught in a private school, I had a morals clause in my contract, and could be dismissed for violating it. We may be talking about the personal lives of consenting adults here, but if you're a teacher, your personal life is not entirely your own. You are expected to set a good example for your students both on and off the job.

[Leela]

Blades, I agree with you---a supercoach with integrity is the best of all possible worlds. But what about a good coach and integral part of a strong team, who makes a mistake, uses bad judgement and gets involved with someone (consenting adult) that creates a difficult situation for a number of people? Should not there at least be an ATTEMPT at negotiating a creative solution, at very least out of respect for a coach and skaters who have given a lot of hard work (and, let's face it, a little glory) to the club? Should it just automatically be my-way-or-the-highway? Would your football coach have been fired like that? Maybe, with some kind of humane process for working problems out, people can grow and change-----this way, just bad feelings all around.

[Skatewind]

Originally posted by Leela
We're talking personal lives of consenting adults here.
It certainly sounds like it's about a lot more than only the personal lives of consenting adults. Like perhaps violations of the standard business practices, rules or bylaws of a non-profit. The coaches were probably paid more than fairly for their contribution to this club & it's skaters; at least enough for them to take the time to understand their obligations & responsibilities as they pertain to the organization(s) involved. If they opted not to crack a rulebook or review necessary information, or even decided to blatantly disregard it, then it seems that would be their choice & direct area of accountability.

[butterfly]

Originally posted by Skatewind
It certainly sounds like it's about a lot more than only the personal lives of consenting adults. Like perhaps violations of the standard business practices, rules or bylaws of a non-profit. The coaches were probably paid more than fairly for their contribution to this club & it's skaters; at least enough for them to take the time to understand their obligations & responsibilities as they pertain to the organization(s) involved. If they opted not to crack a rulebook or review necessary information, or even decided to blatantly disregard it, then it seems that would be their choice & direct area of accountability. You said it so well.

[Anjelica]

butterfly I am with you on this one. There have been problems in the dance program at DSC for a long time now and no one has been courageous enough or brave enough or whatever to address them. The dance program had difficulties long before Liz Coates left. So again I applaud the DSC Board of Directors for doing what they felt was in the best interest of the club.

[leepn]

I am now convinced that noone on this board will ever be satisfied. You want people to stand up and start yelling from the roof tops about sexual abuse. But you are willing to compromise your own integrity at the expense of children just because a certain coach is having success with his students. Does that sound like a double standard or what? I applaud the DSC board for a decision that was not an easy one for them to make. They know better than we how this will affect their program and or finances. But they will not compromise their standards of how they think these certain influences have affects on children. How can "good" parents look at this and say shame on you? Thank you DSC board members for looking out for the best interest of children. You have class!!!

[blades]

8-)

bingo!...we have a winner!...good call leepn...

[aragorn]

Courageous is not an adjective I would use for the DSC Board. Unless you call courageous publicly berating and ridiculing a teenage skater for the crime of questioning the commitment of the DSC to excellence, as happened in a raucous meeting between the DSC Board and a roomful of concerned and angry skaters, parents and coaches supportive of Marina. I call it a cowardly exhibition of power over someone lacking the life experiences to appropriately respond. I would also use the words insensitive, non-communicative and arrogant in describing the actions of the DSC board. The Board never gave any reason for not extending Marina a contract and felt they did not need to. There were no official, documented complaints against Marina and all of her students praised her and gave her high marks not only for her coaching but also for her ability to coordinate and organize their training over the long competitive season. Igor never threatened to resign if Marina could not remain. The Board just took him for granted and wrongly thought he would cave in to their demands for him to find a new coaching partner. I can't blame him for wanting to leave after the shabby treatment he received from the DSC Board. Igor is a demanding, no-nonsense coach but he is fair and commited to his teams and to the successful partnership that has evolved with Marina. All of his dance teams are commited to him and think highly of him and Marina. The DSC, in only a few years, has lost their best singles skaters, most of their pairs program and now dance. Maybe what they really want is to have a club where hockey and synchronized skating rule. Well, they will certainly have it. So be it.

[butterfly]

Originally posted by aragorn
The Board never gave any reason for not extending Marina a contract and felt they did not need to. There were no official, documented complaints against MarinaThis may have been a kindness and if given the choice I think Marina would prefer no public airing.

You sound really close to the situation so I understand your anger.

I must say, I feel badly for children who have parents that would condone bad behavior and defend it. Sometimes we think if we yell loud enough we will get our own way. It doesn't always work that way.

Igor is an excellent dance choreographer, but there is always good, creative talent waiting in the wings. We should never take for granted our own self importance.

[lotusland]

QUESTION:

Did the DSC Board ever speak to the party or parties involved in the indiscretion BEFORE they took their public action?

I am not at the club. I did not see what was going on. But the "moment" it began, the Board should have stepped in and spoken to those concerned, identifying the problem, addressing the corrective action required, and then specifying the ultimate consequences of not correcting the offending behaviour. If this was done. No problem. Everyone knew where they stood.

If this wasn't done? Well ...

Stepping into and zipping up my fireproof suit.

This is not to say I condone any inappropriate behaviour of any kind. Nor do I believe anyone else should either. However, I do strongly believe that "employees" don't always appreciate when their behaviour is inappropriate. Regardless of whether they have a contract, a rule book or have indeed gone through a week long company orientation program. Violations occur. If companies "fired or dehired" their employees every single time they caught an employee violating company policy, they would soon find they had a lot more pencils in their cupboards, but they'd be sadly short of staff.

Whatever happened here, my point is, the DSC Board should have addressed it privately the first time, giving everyone an opportunity to come into line. Then, if the situation remained unsatisfactory ... going this particular route should have been no surprise to anyone.

Okay, now throw rocks at me.

[doodoo]

who exactly made you the moral judge and jury? not only for the coaches but for the parents of skaters as well? Talking about close to the situation, are you on the board?

What ever happened to "Try not to judge your fellow brothers, as you no not what crosses they have had to bear??"

[Anjelica]

aragorn I think the statement you made that 'Igor is fair' is just your own opinion, I among others would have to disagree with that.

[PlatniumAngel]

I heard Johhny and Igor were relocating to the Dallas area, has anyone else heard this? I know that a French coach from DSC is relocating to Texas.

[butterfly]

Originally posted by doodoo
who exactly made you the moral judge and jury? not only for the coaches but for the parents of skaters as well? Talking about close to the situation, are you on the board?

What ever happened to "Try not to judge your fellow brothers, as you no not what crosses they have had to bear??" :) No I am not on the board, but if I was on the board I would have done the same thing.

These people are not my brothers and keeping your pants on at the rink is not a cross to bear.

[dess]

butterfly, I have been reading your posts and can understand where you are coming from, but I don't understand why you think only Marina deserves this punishment.

Originally posted by butterfly
... I admire DSC for standing for good behavior. DSC will be losing substantial coaches with Johnny Johns and Igor leaving, but Marina will not be missed.

You stated that you support DSC for standing for good behavior but then imply that Johnny Johns is a substantial coach that will be missed.

Do you mean the Johnny Johns that was "caught" with his pants down? ... the Johnny Johns that is Executive Director of the club? ... the Johnny Johns who is still teaching young, impressionable skaters despite his "bad behavior"?

I apologize in advance if this sounded like an attack but I guess I am wondering if you truly believe DSC made the right decision concerning Marina then why does Johnny get to walk away from this situation with just a proverbial slap on the wrist and a "bruised ego".

[sonora]

I think the big difference between the Marina situation and the Johnny situation is that Marina's contract was up, and a decision was made not to offer her a new one. Johnny's contract is not up yet, and therefore more documentation may be required to terminate than just not to offer a renewal.

That also may be a longer process.

[butterfly]

Originally posted by dess
butterfly, I have been reading your posts and can understand where you are coming from, but I don't understand why you think only Marina deserves this punishment.



You stated that you support DSC for standing for good behavior but then imply that Johnny Johns is a substantial coach that will be missed.

Do you mean the Johnny Johns that was "caught" with his pants down? ... the Johnny Johns that is Executive Director of the club? ... the Johnny Johns who is still teaching young, impressionable skaters despite his "bad behavior"?

I apologize in advance if this sounded like an attack but I guess I am wondering if you truly believe DSC made the right decision concerning Marina then why does Johnny get to walk away from this situation with just a proverbial slap on the wrist and a "bruised ego". Please forgive me if you are getting the impression that I am supporting Johns. I am not. He has been disciplined with suspension and if I had the decision to make he would be gone too. I have heard he is leaving as well. DSC has to deal legally as well as ethically.

[mary]

I'm sorry and I'm new to these boards, but can someone fill me in in what's going on here? What did these coaches exactly do or didn't do that has caused such an uproar? There seems to be a lot of secretive innuendo or whatever.:roll:

[Orable]

Originally posted by mary
I'm sorry and I'm new to these boards, but can someone fill me in in what's going on here? What did these coaches exactly do or didn't do that has caused such an uproar? There seems to be a lot of secretive innuendo or whatever.:roll:


same here...I'm not that new to the boards, but I'm not 'in the know' in the skating world, so I've been reading this entire thread with "HUH???" screaming through my head... It does seem like a lot of insinuations and accusations, and I don't even know who's telling the truth bc I have no idea what the original story even is :roll:

[Mayra]

LOL! From what I gather, the original story is Marina Zoueva and Johnny Johns did a no no in DSC (use your imagination I suppose), someone saw it or found out about it.(My comments: Really people get a room). The DSC board didn't like it (Duh) and decided not to renew Zoueva's contract with them. Johnny Johns was also apparently suspened but its still unsure as to whether he is staying or leaving *his contract isn't up yet*. Zoueva is an important part of Igor's coaching team and if she ain't staying, he's going with her. Because really, where will he find a replacement at this late a date?

The argument...was the DSC right in not renewing Zoueva's contract and thus causing the exodus of team Shpilband to some other rink and did they handle this hoopla appropriately?

Did I get that right? :P

[mary]

Thank you, I think I get the picture now, finally;)

[dr.frog]

I think there's a *bit* more to the story than that. I have no direct knowledge of any personal hanky-panky involving Zoueva, but I do know that her coaching abilities have been under question almost ever since she arrived at the rink.

It's a really bad sign that all the Detroit dancers have been struggling with their compulsories since Zoueva was hired. She seems not to be very helpful, yet Shpilband insists that his skaters work with her. I also know that at least one skater was injured as a direct result of one of Zoueva's more outrageous training ideas, and that other coaches at the rink (including Johns himself, IIRC) had to step in and tell her to stop.

[dess]

We all know that the issue of compulsories surfaced when Belbin and Agosto had the spotlight put on them with their incredible rise through the standings. Everything was microscopically dissected and compulsories came out as their weakness. I think there is a big difference between having a weakness and being terrible at something. Alot of comments seem to use the two phrases as interchangeable. If you look at all of the competitions (CD only) for last year B/A did extremely well.

Skate America CD:
1- Grushina/Goncharov 2- Navka/Kostomarov 3 - Belbin/Agosto 4 - Chait/Sakhnovski

Lalique CD:
1- Delobel/Schoenfelder 2 - Grushina/Goncharov 3 - Belbin/Agosto

Nationals CD:
1 - Lang/Tchernyshev 2 - Belbin/Agosto (two of the judges put Tanith and Ben first)

Four Continents CD
1- Bourne/Kraatz 2 - Lang/Tchernyshev 3 - Dubreil/Lauzon 4- Belbin/Agosto
This is the one event where I agree their compulsories were not well.

Worlds CD Group A:
1- Bourne/Kraatz 2- Denkova/Stavisky 2- Navka/Kostomarov 4- Belbin/Agosto
Naomi and Peter also placed 4th in their group (and they have always been known for their 'great' compulsories)

Tanith and Ben are in their first full year of competing as Seniors. You cannot compare their junior years with their senior; by ice dance standards Tanith and Ben are still 'babies'. When you look at worlds and the competitors in their group there was no way they were going to place higher. They were competing against the likes of Bourne/Kraatz (the soon to be crowned World Champions). They also had the Bronze medallists and 4th place finishers in that group. I think they had a great season and when their compulsories match their level of presentation (Tanith has also been crititized for having too much of that! Will everyone ever be satisfied?) they will probably be the team the USFSA has been dreaming of for a long time.
:)

[butterfly]

Originally posted by dess
We all know that the issue of compulsories surfaced when Belbin and Agosto had the spotlight put on them with their incredible rise through the standings. Everything was microscopically dissected and compulsories came out as their weakness. I think there is a big difference between having a weakness and being terrible at something. Alot of comments seem to use the two phrases as interchangeable. If you look at all of the competitions (CD only) for last year B/A did extremely well.

Skate America CD:
1- Grushina/Goncharov 2- Navka/Kostomarov 3 - Belbin/Agosto 4 - Chait/Sakhnovski

Lalique CD:
1- Delobel/Schoenfelder 2 - Grushina/Goncharov 3 - Belbin/Agosto

Nationals CD:
1 - Lang/Tchernyshev 2 - Belbin/Agosto (two of the judges put Tanith and Ben first)

Four Continents CD
1- Bourne/Kraatz 2 - Lang/Tchernyshev 3 - Dubreil/Lauzon 4- Belbin/Agosto
This is the one event where I agree their compulsories were not well.

Worlds CD Group A:
1- Bourne/Kraatz 2- Denkova/Stavisky 2- Navka/Kostomarov 4- Belbin/Agosto
Naomi and Peter also placed 4th in their group (and they have always been known for their 'great' compulsories)

Tanith and Ben are in their first full year of competing as Seniors. You cannot compare their junior years with their senior; by ice dance standards Tanith and Ben are still 'babies'. When you look at worlds and the competitors in their group there was no way they were going to place higher. They were competing against the likes of Bourne/Kraatz (the soon to be crowned World Champions). They also had the Bronze medallists and 4th place finishers in that group. I think they had a great season and when their compulsories match their level of presentation (Tanith has also been crititized for having too much of that! Will everyone ever be satisfied?) they will probably be the team the USFSA has been dreaming of for a long time.
:) Ben and Tanith had a long time with Liz teaching compulsories and that has counted for something. Marina has been known to thumb her nose at the importance of compulsories. If you didn't know the judges look at the overall talent of the competitors and either hold them up in the compulsories just to get the desired outcome. We must face the fact that Igor's students have terrible compulsories.

[Smiley0084]

Originally posted by dess
We all know that the issue of compulsories surfaced when Belbin and Agosto had the spotlight put on them with their incredible rise through the standings. Everything was microscopically dissected and compulsories came out as their weakness. I think there is a big difference between having a weakness and being terrible at something. Alot of comments seem to use the two phrases as interchangeable. If you look at all of the competitions (CD only) for last year B/A did extremely well.

Skate America CD:
1- Grushina/Goncharov 2- Navka/Kostomarov 3 - Belbin/Agosto 4 - Chait/Sakhnovski

Lalique CD:
1- Delobel/Schoenfelder 2 - Grushina/Goncharov 3 - Belbin/Agosto

Nationals CD:
1 - Lang/Tchernyshev 2 - Belbin/Agosto (two of the judges put Tanith and Ben first)

Four Continents CD
1- Bourne/Kraatz 2 - Lang/Tchernyshev 3 - Dubreil/Lauzon 4- Belbin/Agosto
This is the one event where I agree their compulsories were not well.

Worlds CD Group A:
1- Bourne/Kraatz 2- Denkova/Stavisky 2- Navka/Kostomarov 4- Belbin/Agosto
Naomi and Peter also placed 4th in their group (and they have always been known for their 'great' compulsories)

Tanith and Ben are in their first full year of competing as Seniors. You cannot compare their junior years with their senior; by ice dance standards Tanith and Ben are still 'babies'. When you look at worlds and the competitors in their group there was no way they were going to place higher. They were competing against the likes of Bourne/Kraatz (the soon to be crowned World Champions). They also had the Bronze medallists and 4th place finishers in that group. I think they had a great season and when their compulsories match their level of presentation (Tanith has also been crititized for having too much of that! Will everyone ever be satisfied?) they will probably be the team the USFSA has been dreaming of for a long time.
:)

I was at nationals, and belive me B/A's tango romantica was not up to par. I was shocked by how much L&T outskated B&A, I thought it would be much closer. Those judges who put B&A ahead of L&T, were obviously swayed by politiks, or smoking something. L&T placing 4th in their group, was actually the highest they have ever finished in the CD's at worlds, I didn't expect the protocol to change.
IMO Marina is just not a good CD teacher period. B&A got a break because they had been skating the Austrian waltz for years, wheras many of the senior teams skated it for the first time at worlds. They also were with Liz for at least a year so they are somewhat better off than Igors other teams. But It's not just B&A, who are deficent in the CD's. If you compare Igors team's CD results when Liz was there to now, with Marina, the difference is painfully obvious.

[dr.frog]

It isn't just Belbin & Agosto that I was thinking of. The year before last, Ralph & O'Meara blew everyone away with their free dance at Nationals, but their compulsories were extremely weak by comparison and prevented them from taking the title. Apparently Shpilband and Zoueva didn't even realize they had a problem until they got the wake-up call from the judges at Nationals.

[PlatniumAngel]

aww whatever happened to Melissa Ralph? I miss her skating...

[Trillian]

Originally posted by dr.frog
The year before last, Ralph & O'Meara blew everyone away with their free dance at Nationals, but their compulsories were extremely weak by comparison and prevented them from taking the title. Apparently Shpilband and Zoueva didn't even realize they had a problem until they got the wake-up call from the judges at Nationals.

Something that may have been fixed before nationals if they'd had the opportunity to get feedback from international judges, but unfortunately that was the year the U.S. team was withdrawn from the JGP. At any rate, I recall hearing that R&O had switched to working with Punsalen and Swallow on compulsories before they split later in the year, which leads me to assume Shpilband recognized Zueva wasn't quite on top of things there.

Obviously Shpilband thinks highly of her, but if Zueva has a confirmed problem teaching compulsories (confirmed IMO by the fact that Shpilband had his team begin working with someone else), at least one skater suffered a serious injury under her training methods before others intervened, and her personal actions have become an issue at the rink, what exactly would compel the DSC to renew her contract? If Shpilband hadn't decided to leave as well, I wouldn't even regard this as news.

Granted, losing Shpilband does suck for the DSC. But considering the quality of their facility, I highly doubt they'll have trouble attracting some other top level coach who's looking for a change of scenery.

[sonora]

Trillian:

Thank you for pointing out the desirability of the DSC facility. It is a wonderful place to train, and I do hope the Club overcomes these troubles and continues to produce such fine quality skating.

[WeBeEducated]

I agree with everything butterfly posted.
I feel sorry for the young skaters that feel they must choose between successful training or accepting unethical, unprofessioinal behaviour by the coaches.

As for Igor not being able to "replace" Marina...I dont buy that! Was she a top ice dancer? Is her experience and success as a coach predominantly in icedance?
There are many many qualified coaches here and abroad, capable of coaching the handful of dancers in this country who skate in Detroit , Michigan.

Anyway, if that handful of icedancers want to train down the street at another rink, what's the big loss? Status for DSC?
Not nearly as important an issue as expecting professional standards at all times by coaches who work in the presence of a majority of minors.
I applaud the DSC.

[dancerchic13]

I just read this whole thread about the Marina, Johns, and Igor business! I may be a little late on my reply but i have something to say about all of this!:x I totally support the DSC board members choice! Everyone on this thread that doesn't agree with butterfly has no idea what their even talking about because butterfly is totally right. Personally I don't care for Marina's teaching ability because I have seen her teach and she is no where near as good of a coach as Igor. She doesn't help out one bit with compulsories and she is not much better with cheography. I think the dancers r making a big mistake by leaving DSC because it is a great rink and other rinks in MI r no match for it.I think there will be a lot of regret in the end!!I feel very sorry for the dancers that will be leaving because they r leaving a lot of luxuries behind. I don't care about the personal lives of the coaches and what they do behind the scenes,but lets have SOME MORALS PEOPLE!!! And who ever bad mouths Liz coates should never do it again because she is a great coach and she is wonderful at what she does. She has helped so many skaters with compulsories unlike Marina!!!:roll:

[Flip Jump]

I live in the area and have heard the rumors about Johnny Johns and Marina Zueva. I think the rumors are true. Johnny is still married, however this is his third wife. His second wife is Linda Johns, a fine coach who is still at DSC. What about Chris Bowman? On the DSC website it says he is a coach there, but I understand he has only one student and he is a chef in the Detroit area. Chris Bowman was certainly a wasted talent.
I know that the DSC board members have closed there eyes to Johns off color behavior in the past, but I guess enough is enough. Marina took the blunt of it, but what I observed she wasn't to nice to her skaters. I think it will be hard for the ice dancers to go to differnt rinks every other day to train. I wish them all good luck.

[Pupiczech]

The divorce is final. Both Johnny & Debbie are still at DSC as is his last wife.

[Roseline]

I read in DSC's newsletter that Tatiana Gladkova will be coaching dance at DSC starting in the middle of this month. What is her coaching experience? Am I mistaken, or is she Shpilband's former partner?

http://www.dscclub.com/pdf_files/spin/spin2003-07.pdf

[Anjelica]

The former partner I am aware of is named Elena.

[quark]

Originally posted by Anjelica
The former partner I am aware of is named Elena. Tatiana Gladkova was Igor Shpilband's partner in winning the Junior World Championship in 1983.

[Anjelica]

You are right. I was thinking of Elena Krykanova. Wonder what ever happened to her?

[singerskates]

With Igor moving, who will be coaching Megan Wing and Aaron Lowe the now 2nd placed ranked dance team in Canada. Megan and Aaron were just featured in this month's Windsor Magazine and it didn't mention any of the situation.

I think Chris Bowman would make a great main coach but he did single skating. He also is a Christian.

Brigitte

[BJY4EVR]

Just out of curiosity, what does his being a Christian have to do with his ability to be a coach?

But to answer your question, I have no doubt that Igor's moving won't affect his being Megan and Aaron's coach.

[mountains4me]

If Igor is just moving to the Canton rink which is a new arena in the same metro area, why would he lose any of his current students? Seems like life will go on, just in a new location :??

[PlatniumAngel]

I took from Marina myself, she was very sweet to me. One of the nicest coaches i've ever had.

[dancerchic13]

Originally posted by mountains4me
If Igor is just moving to the Canton rink which is a new arena in the same metro area, why would he lose any of his current students? Seems like life will go on, just in a new location :??

Yes thats what it seems would happen. But because Igor is moving to Canton(which is about an hour to 2 hours away if there is traffic) his regular students would have to drive all that way to get there. This would be really time consuming and Igor probably teaches a lot of little kids. I wouldn't want to drive all that way every single day!!:!: Therefore because of this he would be losing a lot of students.

[Crush]

Canton is not 2 hours from DSC, its only about 40 minutes and a lot of Igor's dancers already travel far to the rink so it will be nothing new. As far as I know, Igor won't be losing any of his upper level dance teams and quite a few of his other skaters will be going to canton as well for lessons with him.

[tulip]

Originally posted by singerskates

I think Chris Bowman would make a great main coach but he did single skating. He also is a Christian.

Brigitte

Why are you bringing religion into the discussion? Are you implying that because he is a Christian, he'd make a great main coach. His religious affiliation has no bearing on whether or not he's a good coach. :roll:

[blades]

8-)

singer is also a christian...and i believe what she ment was that, at least from her perspective, bowman's being a christian is an added plus...

don't think she ment to upset or offend anyone...

[dancerchic13]

Yes Canton is around 40 min. away but thats only if your going there on a good day without any traffic!!! But thats not the case. Yes it is likely his students will arrive there on time (very questionable). But what you have to worry about is the drive home. This can result in an hour to 2 hour drive home! Especially if there is an Acident!

[winter]

Originally posted by tulip
Why are you bringing religion into the discussion? Are you implying that because he is a Christian, he'd make a great main coach. His religious affiliation has no bearing on whether or not he's a good coach. :roll:




tulip - ITA!

[butterfly]

Originally posted by singerskates
With Igor moving, who will be coaching Megan Wing and Aaron Lowe the now 2nd placed ranked dance team in Canada. Megan and Aaron were just featured in this month's Windsor Magazine and it didn't mention any of the situation.

I think Chris Bowman would make a great main coach but he did single skating. He also is a Christian.

Brigitte Well, I must weigh in on this one. I think a coach is made of of talent and personal interaction with his students and if a coach is a Christian and exhibits christian virtues he will be an understanding, compassionate person and that ain't all bad.

People don't be afraid of Christian coaches, be afraid of coaches that injure, abuse and care little for their students. Be afraid of coaches that don't act as good moral examples to their students. Skating as a sport is not just about the techniques and winning. It is also about a developing young person with opportunity to influence.

[Skatewind]

Originally posted by butterfly
People don't be afraid of Christian coaches, be afraid of coaches that injure, abuse and care little for their students. Be afraid of coaches that don't act as good moral examples to their students. Skating as a sport is not just about the techniques and winning. It is also about a developing young person with opportunity to influence.
I know Christian coaches who have exhibited behavior that is as negative & undesirable as any that's been outlined here. One shouldn't presume just because a coach is Christian he or she displays only positive attributes in the field. I have seen for myself over the years that is not the case. It's much more a matter of ethics, professionalism, leadership & integrity than any religious views.

[BJY4EVR]

He may also be homophobic... which in this sport in particular can be a very bad quality. :roll:

Judging people on their religion is useless as far as I'm concerned. Their are good Christian values and negative Christian values, the same way their are good Jewish, Hindu, and Muslim values. Not all people from similar religious groups will behave the same way.

Just remember how most Christians in the world today are undecided as to whether or not homosexuals should be treated equally with heterosexuals. Obviously, we can't assume that all Christians are understanding, compassionate people... JMHO

[sonora]

It is unfortunate that one cannot rely on one's professed faith as an indicator of character. Thousands of Catholic children could tell you all about the dangers of entrusting kids to someone based on their standing in the Church.

But it is true, and it is also true that religious beliefs have very little to do with ability to coach a skater.

I thought the original reference to Chris Bownman's religion had to do with his renunciation of the party life, and that his profession of faith was a part of that, not an additional coaching credential.

[butterfly]

Originally posted by sonora
It is unfortunate that one cannot rely on one's professed faith as an indicator of character. Thousands of Catholic children could tell you all about the dangers of entrusting kids to someone based on their standing in the Church.

But it is true, and it is also true that religious beliefs have very little to do with ability to coach a skater.

I thought the original reference to Chris Bownman's religion had to do with his renunciation of the party life, and that his profession of faith was a part of that, not an additional coaching credential. You are right, sometimes a change of life to christianity brings you out of a bad lifestyle. What most people don't realize that have no connection to a spiritual side is that your christianity is a part of who you are as a whole and should affect your actions of everyday life for good. Obviously there are people who say they are christian but do not live to the objectives of the christian life. I certainly agree that the priests that abused those children are not true christians. But don't throw Christianity out because there are a few imposters. Christians believe that we should love all people whether you agree with them or not. BYJ4EVR obviously has no religious foundation and frowns on people who do. He goes straight to the homosexual controversy Can we put this to rest by just allowing Chris Bowman to be a Christian and that he is a better person for it. Would you like to have an talented, honest, caring, loving coach or just a talented coach?

[tulip]

Originally posted by butterfly


Can we put this to rest by just allowing Chris Bowman to be a Christian and that he is a better person for it. Would you like to have an talented, honest, caring, loving coach or just a talented coach?

So are you saying that you can only be a talented, honest, caring, loving coach ONLY if you are Christian?!?!

[tulip]

Originally posted by butterfly
BYJ4EVR obviously has no religious foundation and frowns on people who do. He goes straight to the homosexual controversy

So just because he brought up homosexuality you assume he has no religious foundation? And you call yourself a Christian!?! :roll:

BTW, I believe BYJ posted previously on this board that he is Jewish.

[butterfly]

Originally posted by tulip
So just because he brought up homosexuality you assume he has no religious foundation? And you call yourself a Christian!?! :roll:

BTW, I believe BYJ posted previously on this board that he is Jewish. You are all quite hopeless as far as a reasonable discussion. I will not be adding anything further. It is so common in the world of Christianphopia.

[Skatingsarah]

8O WOW this thread has strayed far from "Marina Zoueva still at DSC"...lol

[blades]

8-)

praise the lord!:halo:

[Skatewind]

Originally posted by butterfly
You are all quite hopeless as far as a reasonable discussion. I will not be adding anything further.
Actually this discussion has been quite reasonable. You know nothing about my religious beliefs, or most others here, so maybe it would be better to hold off on the designation of who is "hopeless" & who is not until you have better information.

[Roseline]

Trying to avoid more religion arguments by getting us back on topic ( :oops: ): does anyone know who will be replacing Igor and Marina at DSC? From my understanding the club is trying to woo a big name coach, but I have not heard any names mentioned except Morozov, but that seemed to be more wishful than actual fact or even educated speculation.

[tulip]

Originally posted by butterfly
You are all quite hopeless as far as a reasonable discussion.

Gee, what a "Christian" thing to say!! Not. :roll:

I gotta say I love these "Christians" who can do no wrong and think those who disagree with their religious beliefs are nothing but "Christianphobes". :x

[adrianchew]

Ok its been fun - take it back on track or it'll be closed. :P

[sonora]

If I were Detroit I would woo Charlie Butler. It would mean some building time, but he is a superb dancer, is coaching some nice little teams, and has done beautiful work with the synchro teams in Dearborn(I think that's where they are)

[dess]

According to Tanith's latest journal entry Liz Punsalan is now coaching all of Igor's teams in compulsories.

Tanith's journal entry (http://www.figureskatersonline.com/belbin-agosto/journal.html) (second to last paragraph)

[what?meworry?]

liz and jarod were adults when they moved to dsc to work with igor and liz coates. however, this is not to detract from liz p's ability.
by observation, given the excesses, i dare to suggest that financially, and emotionally, dsc will in fact benefit from the decision to non-renew zoueva's contract, despite the igor and following exit. (i scratch my head and wonder why? since the rumors swirl about mz and jj.)
additionally, it also appears, if the teams are able to skate sufficiently at this one rink, that the dance teams will not be hurt by this "mishegas" (and i know i can't spell that one!)

[icesktrkidz]

Apparently most of the posters to this sight are not allowing for the cyclical phases(approx. 10 yrs+or-) of skating. All the upheavals you are up at arms about happen ALL the time. Having been involved in skating for 31 years of my now 50+ I've seen the coming and going and relocating of numerous World Class Coaches. Life goes on and skating does the same. If you don't like change this is not the sport to be involved. Everything takes on its own life. Skating is no different. If we don't continue to change, we don't progress, be it in skating or life. Would we have the jumps(quads) today if we didn't change some of our techniques?

[icedancer2]

Originally posted by icesktrkidz
Apparently most of the posters to this sight are not allowing for the cyclical phases(approx. 10 yrs+or-) of skating. All the upheavals you are up at arms about happen ALL the time. Having been involved in skating for 31 years of my now 50+ I've seen the coming and going and relocating of numerous World Class Coaches. Life goes on and skating does the same. If you don't like change this is not the sport to be involved. Everything takes on its own life. Skating is no different. If we don't continue to change, we don't progress, be it in skating or life. Would we have the jumps(quads) today if we didn't change some of our techniques?

Thank you for posting this -- I, too, have been around skating for almost my whole life and have seen this kind of thing happen again and again, and really, nothing changes that much. someone leaves, takes their students and creates more space for something new to enter. It's a natural cycle, really.

And I even saw this at DSC 35-40 years ago and now it's a better training facility than it ever was!!

Go DSC!

[moblie]

But if Marina is a "horrible" compulsories coach, why are her teams winning??

[Smiley0084]

Because they're good at the OD and the FD