Pairs Elements

[hoptoad]

A few questions for the experts:

1. Throw twists: What is the history of the lateral/vertical distinction? I'd never heard of this before watching the Zhangs' Olympic short program, where it was said that there would be a deduction for her being lateral instead of vertical in the throw 2 twist. Is this a recent addition to the rulebook? No one is exactly vertical--how many degrees off vertical can the woman be without getting a deduction? Is one harder than the other or considered better technique?

2. SBS jumps: In judging unison, is it the take-off or the landing that is judged, or both? How can some couples manage to take off and land at the same time anyway? Since there's usually a great disparity in height and physique, it seems that at least one of them would have to change his or her technique drastically to make this happen. I would imagine this would usually be the man since he is probably the one who would have to scale back the height and distance of the jump.

3. Learning lifts: This one is more for people who have skated pairs. Seeing some intermediate/novice level pairs skate recently gave me a new appreciation of how difficult lifts are. It seems that with many of the young pairs, the girls legs seem to hang straight down in a hand to hand lift. It looks a little awkward (compared to the seniors we see on TV which is certainly NOT a fair comparison!) Is this primarily an issue of back and leg strength, or is it a matter of balance and finding the right center of gravity? What is the hardest thing about learning lifts in general?

4. Can't leave out the throw jumps:) Does anyone else think T&M might be able to do a throw quad loop soon? She rotates very fast and he looks like he puts very little effort into throwing her, at least compared to Zhou (sp?), who leaps off the ice on the quad throw attempt.

[leap of faith]

I'm no expert but the way I understand it, lateral and vertical twists are 2 totally different things.

Vertical should be as straight up as possible and lateral should be totally on the side.
Brasseur and Eisler used to do one of each in their LPs and it was a very easy comparison.

All three Chinese teams do the half lateral twist with the same technique which I don't think is the way twists are supposed to be done especially in the SP.
It might come from only doing the split on one leg, thus tipping them in the air.

For question #4, IMO I don't think T&M will be able to do a throw quad loop because she travels more across the ice with not a whole lot of height as opposed to up and across.

Again, I'm no expert this is just how I see it.

[Scott]

Throw quads and throw triple axels are really difficult and dangerous for the woman. A throw is very difficult to control, partly because of the speed and partly the height. I really don't see anyone soon acomplishing this nor do I really think it is neccessary.

The deductions for the twist being referred to are no different than any of the other elements. In the short program you must complete the required elements. If a lateral twist is called for and a vertical is performed then a deduction should be given. Just as if a double jump is needed and the pair completes a single.

Concerning the unison of the jumps: I believe that the whole packagae is looked at. This means from the moment of the take off to the landing. Simply landing in unision will not get the highest mark. I believe that the judges are also evalutaing the technique of the jumps.

Technique with the lifts comes with age and body development. The lifts require incredible strength on the part of both the man and the lady. At a novice level these folks really are struggling with these elements because their bodies are not really fully developed. There is a lot of uncertainty with the lifts at this age.

[AxelAnnie22]

[quote:4fb7bfe1c7="Scott"]
Technique with the lifts comes with age and body development. The lifts require incredible strength on the part of both the man and the lady. At a novice level these folks really are struggling with these elements because their bodies are not really fully developed. There is a lot of uncertainty with the lifts at this age.[/quote:4fb7bfe1c7]

[color=darkblue:4fb7bfe1c7]I don't argue your point......however ..
Do you remember the Steiglers when they were young? They had amazing lifts. And, I believe she was only 9 or so, and he couldn't have been more than 11 or 12? There was no gangliness or loss of limb control. Oh boy, how I miss them! [/color:4fb7bfe1c7]

[Scott]

[quote="AxelAnnie22"][quote:29c36b19fe="Scott"]
[color=darkblue:29c36b19fe]I don't argue your point......however ..
Do you remember the Steiglers when they were young? They had amazing lifts. And, I believe she was only 9 or so, and he couldn't have been more than 11 or 12? There was no gangliness or loss of limb control. Oh boy, how I miss them! [/color:29c36b19fe][/quote:29c36b19fe]

I agree with you on this one. But also the lifts they were doing were very basis. She was also very tiny at that age. But I would agree with you they appreared to be much better at the lifts when they were that age.

[originalQA]

What happened to the Steiglers?

[Amy L]

They're still around.... they just grew.

[Isabelle]

Teams can take off for side by side jumps at different times and land at the same time when one partner rotates faster and/or doesn't go as high as the other.

[hoptoad]

I've never seen B&E skate. Who else (from this past season) does a particularly good vertical and/or lateral twist? Was the lateral twist a later variation of the vertical twist, and when did the rulebook make the vertical/lateral distinction?

[Scott]

[quote:3e46b3a868="Isabelle"]Teams can take off for side by side jumps at different times and land at the same time when one partner rotates faster and/or doesn't go as high as the other.[/quote:3e46b3a868]

I believe that if the twoskaters take off at a different time there is a deduction. It affects the artistic mark and ruins the unision so you do not get the skating as one image. When the two skaters take off differently into a jump it really looks awkward and it is not pretty.

[Isabelle]

[quote:015e013764]
I believe that if the twoskaters take off at a different time there is a deduction. It affects the artistic mark and ruins the unision so you do not get the skating as one image. When the two skaters take off differently into a jump it really looks awkward and it is not pretty.[/quote:015e013764]

I didn't mean that it was ok for skaters to take off at different times if they land at the same time, I was just explaining how it could happen because I thought that was one of the questions hoptoad was asking. (I agree that it doesn't look good when they take off at different times)

[hoptoad]

Actually, I was trying to ask about how some pairs (B&S come to mind) can take off AND land at the same time (or at least very close to it, compared to most other teams). It seems natural that the taller partner would jump higher and further on the same jump than the smaller one, and their rotation speeds would probably be different too. To achieve that look of near perfect unison, it seems like one or both would have to alter his or her jumping technique. Is this something pairs coaches specifically address? (way down on a very long list of skills, of course)

[Amy L]

To get perfect jump unison, it usually [b:0f695ca0f3]is[/b:0f695ca0f3] the man that has to alter his technique. Gordeeva mentioned in [i:0f695ca0f3]My Sergei[/i:0f695ca0f3] that when she and Sergei were paired up, he had to learn how to take shorter strides in his crossovers and I assume he also had to learn how to change his jumps to match hers.

[Scott]

Both skaters have to make adjustments. The skater who is usually more proficient is the one making the changes to aid in developing unision. Many times the man must adjust his strides or the height of his jumps. This can be also said of the woman who may be a faster skater, faster spinner, have faster rotations, etc. There is a lot of work in this business that many people don't think about.

[AnnieD]

I've always been quite confused about the difference between normal split twists and lateral twists. Originally I thought that the only difference was that lateral twists were, err... lateral! But I read somewhere a while ago (can't remember where) that the difference is also in the take off, and that in a lateral twist the woman is thrown right into the air without her using her toe-pick to assist as in the normal split twist. I know I definitely read this somewhere, but is it true?

[Scott]

[quote:74f0e10b43="AnnieD"]I've always been quite confused about the difference between normal split twists and lateral twists. Originally I thought that the only difference was that lateral twists were, err... lateral! But I read somewhere a while ago (can't remember where) that the difference is also in the take off, and that in a lateral twist the woman is thrown right into the air without her using her toe-pick to assist as in the normal split twist. I know I definitely read this somewhere, but is it true?[/quote:74f0e10b43]

In reviewing some of the tapes I beleive that your assumption is correct. The male tosses the dfemale into a lateral position. I really couldn't see any toe pick action on her part. Who Knows, though, I could be mistaken!