Posting Coaching Indiscretions and Rumors [Archive]

Skatewind

07-11-2003, 05:29 PM

For those who missed the thread that was posted earlier, it was about a coach who the poster didn't want to name, but instead wanted to identify by awards & other general info. Problem is that there are innocent, uninvolved coaches who also won the said award & are unfairly implicated when somebody wants to write a missive full of speculation & innuendo without "naming names". If that person wants to discuss it, they should be noting a name & where it's happening or discuss it in general terms. Not supply information to make everyone wonder which one it is of three coaches & drag the others into it who are not even involved.

Maybe you didn't see the post, but blades & I both read it. It was inappropriate. It was not like the David Lowery thread, which provides actual facts & information.

mountains4me

07-11-2003, 05:37 PM

The thread that was deleted did not name the coach involved because the question was whether or not PSA credentials had been taken away. The incident which was referred to was not a rumor and was never denied by the coach! The ethics of her behavior were in question and the rulings of the PSA and USFSA should be important to the parents of all skaters. The skating world can be so overwhelming that it is a shame that even a discussion board wants to sweep questionable behavior under the rug. Coaches are hard to choose for our children. If the PSA or USFSA does not discipline questionable behavior, as apparantly is often the case, how are we to find out about it? Why not an open forum where debate can take place and both sides given? Is it ethical for a coach to become involved with a student who is living in said coach's home? Simple question. Based on factual event. No names...no rumors

Skatewind

07-11-2003, 05:45 PM

It sounds like you have missed the point. The post listed awards won by a coach but refused to name names. If you didn't know that other coaches fit the award winning description, go back & check & then you will. The way the information was posted was very inappropriate & made insinuations that could be misinterpreted & attributed to the wrong coach. That's the problem, at least as I read it.

dr.frog

07-11-2003, 06:49 PM

Originally posted by blades

in many cases here, it's some wannabe or troll doing the accusing...

Unfortunately, I would have to say that in every instance but one where I have heard rumors about unethical or abusive behavior by a coach toward a student, it has been followed up sooner or later either by a grievance or some kind of legal or criminal action, and/or by private confirmation by witnesses and other people who knew what was going on. In the one exception (*not* the one that prompted this thread), I have heard only long-standing rumors that there is something creepy about this coach and not specific details, as in all the other cases.

I don't know which "many cases" you could possibly be referring to as being purely the invention of wannabes or trolls. I don't recall seeing any discussion at all here that hasn't eventually been confirmed (publicly or privately) by other sources.

blades

07-11-2003, 10:42 PM

8-)

well...it just happened on the "where to go what to do" thread...

i'm looking at the overall picture...after five plus years of crus'in the net...

i'm very involved in skating...have been for more than four decades...most of the time i either know the person that is being discussed or i know several people who know that person well...some of the accusations are right on...some others aren't even in the ball park...

protecting the skaters is important...so is protecting innocent coaches...imagine how it'd be if someone falsely accused you of such an act...

Chico

07-11-2003, 11:49 PM

Personally I don't think rumors should be discussed on the board. However, as an adult skater I've learned the rink is a very small community. Things have a way of getting around. As a parent, I'm not of a skater, I would keep my ears and eyes open. Learn which parents to listen to and which ones not. I would be observant and form my own opinions, and I would not leave my child at the rink without some trusted adult WATCHING for my childs welfare.I have seen too many parents leave their child at the rink EARLY in the morning alone and in a empty rink. And the parent who knows a coach is "iffy" and still lets that coach work with their child because their the BEST is a fool. No person is worth a childs soul. I also think it's horrible when a rink knows there is an issue and they turn a blind eye. It takes a community to raise a child, it takes a community to protect one too.

Chico

dr.frog

07-12-2003, 08:32 AM

Originally posted by blades

well...it just happened on the "where to go what to do" thread...

OK, I just went and looked at that thread. What I see is a few people suggesting that some coaches are not very good coaches, or that they had a personal problem with a particular coach. That's different from the rumors I was referring to, which where specifically about abuse and unethical or unprofessional behavior. Coaches making sexual advances towards students, coaches who have physically or emotionally abused students, that sort of thing.

What I don't want to happen ever again is for a skater to be abused by a coach because adults who tried to raise concerns about the coach's behavior were told "we can't talk about that here" or that it was inappropriate to ask for help or that it was more important to protect the coach's reputation than the well-being of the children he or she works with.

mountains4me

07-12-2003, 04:36 PM

Skatewind, in retrospect, I agree with you that my description of the coach involved could have been understood to be more than one coach. In trying to do the right thing by not giving a name, I blew it. My apologies. (Man, I hate being wrong!)

judgejudee

07-13-2003, 12:38 PM

Okay, I had to register and join this discussion. This is less serious than the "abuse" concerns, but it pertains to the PSA discussion. I too have grave reservations about the PSA, their ratings systems, and their inability to self-police rogue coaches. But what do you think of coaches who flaunt a "master rating" implying they are experienced freestyle coaches, but their rating is actually in group lessons, or something like that? Or a coach whose bio reads "Worlds Coach" but it was really ISI Worlds? There are many ways to deceive and cheat parents, especially those new to the sport. I guess the old "buyer beware" caveat emptor applies, but how sad that the PSA cannot help their source of bread and butter, the consumer/parent. As a professional in another field, I am pretty disappointed with the professionalism in coaching ranks.

sonora

07-13-2003, 05:05 PM

Well said Judgejudee.

GeezerSk8rMom

07-14-2003, 12:49 PM

JudgeJudee, How right you are! Most kids start out in learn to skate classes then gradually move in to the private lessons. Most parents make decisions based on several factors. #1) my kid had that coach as a skating school teacher and liked him/her. #2) Opinions of other parents. #3) Watching other kids and the ones who look like they have the most potential, or are skating "the best" (more jumps). They put their innocent little children with people who are going to profoundly effect the childs idea of skating, good sportsmanship, training etc...without proper information. Just because somebody else's kid can do a triple axel at age 5 does not mean that your child will or should! It is important to take your time while deciding on who should teach your child. We have skater's in our area that have not passed any of their golds being hired by rinks, or giving private lessons and charging over $60.00 an hour. This is highway robbey in my opinion! But the parents just don't know any better. They give thousands of dollars to a coach who can do the move or jump, but can't teach how to do it. We spend more money per hour on private ice skating coaches than we do for the teachers in our classrooms. We all need to remember that we are not raising "Ice Skater's" we are raising human beings! And the people we put around our children and who are in a position to influence or teach them should be held to a reasonable standard.

Skatewind

07-14-2003, 04:04 PM

Originally posted by dr.frog
What I don't want to happen ever again is for a skater to be abused by a coach because adults who tried to raise concerns about the coach's behavior were told "we can't talk about that here" or that it was inappropriate to ask for help or that it was more important to protect the coach's reputation than the well-being of the children he or she works with.
I would not want to see that happen either, but once again that was not the problem with the previous thread that was shut down.

IgglesII

07-14-2003, 04:16 PM

Originally posted by judgejudee
Or a coach whose bio reads "Worlds Coach" but it was really ISI Worlds?

Even better - someone who bills him/herself as a "National, World and Olympic" coach.

dr.frog

07-14-2003, 05:13 PM

Originally posted by Skatewind
I would not want to see that happen either, but once again that was not the problem with the previous thread that was shut down.

When Arsenette shut down the "A coach and his indecent proposal" thread, she commented that the thread never should have been started at all. Well, it started because a concerned parent was asking for advice in helping a skater deal with a very serious child abuse situation. Apparently the moderators on this board have some sort of problem with that, and I'm disgusted by that attitude.

Skatewind

07-15-2003, 08:50 AM

The indecent proposal thread was closed but is still available for people to read, as is the other one about David Lowery which is still open for comments.

This one is in reference to a topic that was deleted for a good reason. Even mountains4me has now acknowledged it was an improper way to report the information. Or is it alright to wrongly implicate INNOCENT uninvolved coaches in order to point figures at the guilty ones? Because a lot of people find that attitude pretty disgusting too. I appreciate it that mountains4me understands this view & realizes it is NOT about trying to cover up for abusive coaches, but is about relaying accurate information.

winter

07-15-2003, 05:46 PM

A few years ago, there was a case of a "wacko" wantabe elite coach with an axe to grind, making false accusations of their mentor. Not a good thing.:evil:

BittyBug

07-19-2003, 09:21 AM

Anyone who has been involved in skating for a while knows that, regrettably, there is no shortage of pettiness and viciousness in our sport. I have heard unbelievable allegations about skaters' and coaches' behaviors, most of which have gone unsubstantiated. (Never anything related to abuse, but allegations about sexual activities, hookups, things said, etc.). Just yesterday I investigated an allegation because it would have warranted disciplinary action had it been true. However, when I asked the person who was allegedly on the receiving end of some inappropriate behavior, I got an entirely different story than that told to me by an observer. What allegedly occurred in fact did not.

Until there are concrete facts offered by parties directly involved in an incident, a rumor is just that, and dragging rumors onto public discussion boards is not only inappropriate, but could in some cases be slander.

WeBeEducated

07-19-2003, 02:07 PM

Actually Bittybug, slander is the wrong word.
slander is verbal, and libel is written

People who share association in a club or organization have the right to share information about the coaches they hire.
The coaches are employees of the skaters and their parents.
Too many pretentious coaches forget this fact.
They are employees, and their employers need to evaluate their character, their job performance, and their working relationships.
If a coach has encountered years of negative, persistant rumours defaming his/her character there is reason to be suspicious.
Discussions among those involved in the association or organization exist NOT to "ruin" the reputation of the suspicious coach, but to PROTECT the skaters and parents who risk enormous emotional and financial harm.

chattykathy

07-22-2003, 02:54 PM

Is there a reason this thread has been posted as a sticky? It seems to only keep fanning the fire and I don't think that was the intent of the moderators.

This is a volatile topic and should be discussed as necessary, but cant we let it drop to the bottom as interest diminishes.

Please!

WeBeEducated

07-22-2003, 05:08 PM

what is a "sticky"?

Arsenette

07-22-2003, 05:46 PM

Originally posted by chattykathy
Is there a reason this thread has been posted as a sticky? It seems to only keep fanning the fire and I don't think that was the intent of the moderators.

This is a volatile topic and should be discussed as necessary, but cant we let it drop to the bottom as interest diminishes.

Please!

I posted it as a "sticky" (where the topic remains on the top of the forum as opposed to based on daily activity) because within the last month there have been 3-4 threads that chose to change from an informative conversation to a smear campaign against someone that they "didn't like" or they "thought" they heard something or goodness knows what. There has to be guidelines to discussions that don't turn into bashfests on coaches that have not been proven to have done anything other than "rumor". If the case is serious and/or real (as in the case of Bob Young, etc.) then the case goes to court. There is another thread similar of a case ongoing in court. This is where it should be - in the courts to have these people prosecuted and removed from harming children in the future. People should not be discussing coaches that are only rumour and allegation because it destroys the reputation of an otherwise innocent victim.

Considering that there quite a number of new posters - most have taken the time to start these type of threads with no other reason than spreading rumors. Some have actually read the guidelines and kept the issues where they should be. This will remain a sticky until it become apparent that this type of behaviour is not tolerated - so much is a stake and people should be respected - ALL people. A disgruntled person has no right to bash someone based on rumour (if there is a legitimate complaint it should go to the authorities - it is clear that some have already) not discussed as a rumor on this forum.

Arsenette

Gaela

08-07-2003, 04:37 PM

I can appreciate that discussion alleged indiscretions or sexaul assault is indeed a sensitive issue and care needs to be taken in discussing it on-line, there are legal issues involved I think, the matter is one for the courts.

OTOH, if my child was going to be visitting a skating school away from town, I'd want to hear any rumors of misconduct on the part of coaches.

Yes, one is innocent until proven guilty. However, a whole lot of sexual abusers remain innocent their whole life because noone every accuses them. So, if on-line discussing is bringing the issue to the fore, bringing awareness to parents, and thus making it easier to kids to talk about it when it happens to them.

The amount of incest and sexual assault that goes on our world is truly scary; I've volunteered at a rape relief shelter and their phones are ringing 24/7 with victims needing to talk. Most cases of sexual assault are enacted by someone the victims know, and young boys/girls in a relationship with an older power figure are particularly vulnerable.

Sure a kid might make up a story that this or that coach assaulted her or him; sure a woman might cry rape to extort money from the accused. But for every one of these, there are hundreds of actual assaults that never get reported.

Evidence and facts are needed to make an indictment, and many abusers will never get caught anyhow. They have the courts to protect them. But the victims end up in court for the opposite reason, because they were not protected from assault happening to them.

phskate

08-08-2003, 06:36 AM

Thank you, Gaela.

Lulia

08-09-2003, 08:15 PM

I don't think that it's the number of person who are/were victims of incest/abuse/harassment that is important, but the amount of suffering they endure. I don't think that the percentage of North American individuals who suffered such abuse would be so high, it's just that nowadays, cases like this are in the news everyday. Our culture concentrates on violence, and consequently, we feel like we're surrounded by violence. But I'd be curious to know how many of us here at SForums have been the victim of a seriously violent act (murder attempt, rape in any form, serious bodily harm, etc.)?

My point is, let's not get melodramatic. I know I'll get flack for this, but I think that moderation ultimately protects everybody. Put yourself in a victim's shoes: would you like total unknowns to know about your case and endlessly discuss what should be done? I don't think that this forum is the place to discuss, and try to solve, such grave matter.

When I see a thread like "A coach and his indecent proposal", I feel like someone is trying to arouse my indignation (and it works, unfortunately :roll: , but not for the right reasons), and not to try and get my opinion or help on it.

dooobedooo

08-09-2003, 11:43 PM

Unfortunately, I believe most of us here have witnessed similar situations; which outside the protection of the "skating world mafia" and the intense relationship of coach/student/parents would probably lead to a prison sentence. In some situations, the student/parent seems to be more opportunist than victim, in order to curry favour with a celebrated and in-demand coach. So such action can go unpunished for a lifetime.

I do believe that this topic (on the closed thread) was originally innocently started with the bewildered question - "So where do we draw the line?"

phskate

08-10-2003, 06:54 AM

Originally posted by Lulia

My point is, let's not get melodramatic. I know I'll get flack for this, but I think that moderation ultimately protects everybody. Put yourself in a victim's shoes: would you like total unknowns to know about your case and endlessly discuss what should be done? I don't think that this forum is the place to discuss, and try to solve, such grave matter.

Yes, Lulia, put yourself in the victims shoes. Put yourself in mine. The mother of the victim. Walk a mile of where we have walked in the last few months. Be the people who have lost ice, coaches, and friends because no one wants to discuss it. No one wants to believe that it is true. May I speak for my son and myself and say to you and anyone else that cares to hear. TALK ABOUT IT! Discuss what needs to be done and try to solve it! My son and I have done everything that we can through the private agencies and public law enforcement agencies. This man will pay for his crime but we still have a problem. The apathy, the not talking about it, the lets don't discuss it on a public forum that perpetuates this horrible cycle. When this is over and I can TALK ABOUT IT! I will speak out on every soap box that I can stand on and so will my son. We need to talk about it and form action committees and post fliers in every rink across the country. There needs to be numbers posted for kids and parents to call if there is physical,verbal or sexual abuse. It needs to be discussed with every skater and every coach until the rumble is so loud about it that no coach ever again dares to think that he can get away with it.

Lulia

08-13-2003, 09:13 PM

phskate, I didn't wish to add to you and your son's anguish. Believe me, if I could do something for you, I would. But from here, where I live, and my being NOT involved in skating circles, I can't do much more than hope for the best.
My seemingly insensitive reaction to such case is caused by utter suspicion when being related such circumstances. I am not saying that you are lying! If you are going to such lengths to protect your child, it must be for a very good reason, and you must be commanded for caring so much.

I think that this thread was about how we get so little information about these cases, and therefore cannot do much. If we can't know WHO is the victim, WHO is the suspect, how can we take action? Being aware of the phenomenon is all well and good, but it does so precious little... Look at drunk-driving, drugs, unwanted pregnancies, etc., all subjects which are frequently dealt with by public figures and governments... And very often, those who actually listen to these campains are those who are very well aware of the problem...

You must also realize that we are not directly, personally, emotionally as involved as you are. Of course, we care, but there is only so much we can feel, as witnesses. We understand you anguish and feel sad for this state of things. But try as we might, we can only imagine what you and your son are going through.

Again, I give you my moral support, but that's all I can offer.

WeBeEducated

08-14-2003, 07:44 AM

Child abuse must be discussed.
It doesnt matter if it allegedly occurs in a church, by a teacher, by a coach, at a relative's home, at camp, or in the mall.
All young people who have the courage to tell their story, to seek help, need to believe that the people in their world will listen, will act on their behalf, and will spread the news about the predator so that others will not fall victim to his crimes.
An online forum is simply like a huge telephone, and although some use it to enjoy discussing costumes, and competitions, it is also valuable to discuss serious issues that exist in the sport.
Both sides have access to it.
In the Lowery case, I know that he is aware of the forum. He is free to present his side of the story.
Those charged with sexual abuse rarely want to tell their side though, have you noticed? Other than saying "not guilty" they hide.
Their only defense is to say the child is lying.
Period.
There is nothing else they can say to justify their actions.
In the skating world it WAS hush hush and cover up for years.
He was counting on that I assume, because the idea of not discussing it, not "spreading rumours" allowed child abuse to go unpunished in the sport for the entire 20th century.

Skatewind

08-14-2003, 09:22 AM

This thread was originally in reference to a thread that was deleted (at my request among others) because the person who started it wanted to discuss an improper incident between a coach & a skater without naming names. The way the information was written was totally inappropriate & implicated another coach who was not in any way involved but could have been **misidentified** by many people based on the description that was given of the coach, all because someone did not want to "name any names". It was not deleted because it was about child abuse.

Once people start acknowledging how totally inappropriate it is to write information in a way that implicates the wrong parties with improper accusations, and stop doing it, then threads like this one would not have to exist. As long as everyone confuses what the actual issue was with the thread that was deleted that caused this topic, then the arguments will continue. Frankly, the attitude that it's alright to include innocent coaches (when one does not want to "name any names") in order to target the abusive ones who are guilty is disgusting. Is that really a lesson you want to teach your children & how exactly does it effectively deal with child abuse?

Gaela

09-01-2003, 03:40 PM

Skatewind, I agree. We don't want to imply innocent parties by not naming names. I didn't realize this is what had happened.

However, the response to your topic is nonetheless important, and deals with issues very relevent to parents of skaters who have been assaulted and are vulnerable to assault.

Originally posted by Lulia I don't think that it's the number of person who are/were victims of incest/abuse/harassment that is important, but the amount of suffering they endure.

Hm. The numbers absolutely matter because they reflect a phenomenon. You can't quantify suffering in the case of sexual assault.

I don't think that the percentage of North American individuals who suffered such abuse would be so high, it's just that nowadays, cases like this are in the news everyday. Our culture concentrates on violence, and consequently, we feel like we're surrounded by violence. But I'd be curious to know how many of us here at SForums have been the victim of a seriously violent act (murder attempt, rape in any form, serious bodily harm, etc.)?

I was, at age 16. Unlike most rape victims, I did not know the man who assaulted me. The statistic at rape relief centres varies, but the one I remember is that a woman is raped every 17 minutes in Canada. It needs to be acknowledged that rape is non-consensual sex, and traditionally defined by Webster's as 'against a woman's will'--though I imagine that definition will be change to include men/boys as well. Rape can occurs between partners, especially in an abusive relationship--there was one precadent setting case in Canada where a husband was charged for raping his wife, but for the most part, such incidents go unreported and the victims live in fear of the abuser. Likewise, sexual abuse of children in families is also a lot more common than we would like to think. And don't forget that sexual assualt in the work place happens all the time.

Please, don't brush this under the carpet and say "well it doesn't really happen that much and we thinks its worse than it is because of all the violence we see on TV" :?: :?:

It's only 2 kids in however many who are sexually assualted, so it doesn't matter? It would if you were that child, or the parent of that child, and noone wanted to listen.

Put yourself in a victim's shoes: would you like total unknowns to know about your case and endlessly discuss what should be done? I don't think that this forum is the place to discuss, and try to solve, such grave matter.

I would certainly prefer it to suffering in silence, and furthermore, I personally don't know the victim's I have mentioned here. I relate to them as a victim of sexual assault, and need know no more.

PHSkate has the right idea, I think, to make the forum for discussion more public. This board is an intermediate step. What we don't have hear is clear legal advice or counselling services, and a center with qualified professionals to handle complaints could do a better job. Doesn't such a centre exist already, though not for skaters in particular? Do parents need to form such a helpline?

Lulia

09-03-2003, 08:02 PM

Gaela:

Believe me, I am not the heartless person you want me to appear as. I'd be the first to advocate harsher punishment of rapists, because as of now, they are barely punished, aren't they? I think that rape is worse than murder, because the victim lives with her memories. I am tremendously sorry that it happened to you.

What I am fearful of is the collective hysteria that seem to accompany the merest assumption of abuse. Just today, I read a letter to an advice column in which a mother told that her 8 years old daughter had told her that her father had molested her. By the details she gave, it seemed that the father was indeed guilty.

But what bothered me is that the mother said that a 8 years-old could not invent such a story because she would be too innocent. That's where I would pull all the stops! Children watch movies with sex in them, 6-years-olds dress like Christina Aguilera, and by 12-years-old, it is very likely that they will have had some sort of sexual encounter. What I'm trying to say, in short, is that sexual abuse, or any kind of abuse is becoming a weapon in some children's hands. I am not denying that the problem exists! Much to the contrary. I wish that there would be a way to teach children to defend themselves better, and to cure people who have such impulses. Because denouncing them in a very public place such as the internet only makes the matters worse, IMHO.

sk8er1964

09-03-2003, 09:30 PM

Originally posted by Lulia
But what bothered me is that the mother said that a 8 years-old could not invent such a story because she would be too innocent. That's where I would pull all the stops! Children watch movies with sex in them, 6-years-olds dress like Christina Aguilera, and by 12-years-old, it is very likely that they will have had some sort of sexual encounter. What I'm trying to say, in short, is that sexual abuse, or any kind of abuse is becoming a weapon in some children's hands. I am not denying that the problem exists! Much to the contrary. I wish that there would be a way to teach children to defend themselves better, and to cure people who have such impulses. Because denouncing them in a very public place such as the internet only makes the matters worse, IMHO. [/B]

This is really scary. My child is 8 years old, and he is not allowed to watch a movie with sex in it. If he were a she, he would never be allowed to dress like Christina Aguilera. If he is having sex as a 12 year old, then I'm going to be one upset mother.

If my son tells me somebody has approached him in an improper manner, I will believe him. He knows right from wrong, and what makes him feel uncomfortable, because we have taught him what's right and what's wrong. Although he occasionally tells little white lies (most of which we catch him in), he would not lie about something like sexual abuse because he IS innocent. He doesn't have the knowledge necessary to give the kind of details abused kids give. Even when he is older, I will still believe him because I have nurtured a relationship of trust with my child.

To think that there are "some" children are out there who would allege sexual abuse for personal gain is just plain scary. Those who would lie like that, and I would hazard to guess that they are a very small minority, obviously have other issues that they are dealing with - issues that would probably come out under cross examination.

I agree with the folks who have said that knowledge is the greatest weapon we have to fight child abuse. With knowledge, we as parents can better protect the people who are the most important in the world to us -- our children. What better place to share that knowledge than the Internet? This case has been reported in the media, so it is public knowledge. Remember, details about the alleged abuser in the "Coach and his indecent proposal" thread did not come out until the man was actully charged with a crime, and the folks involved didn't post in such a way that other people could be implicated by mistake. It wasn't like the other thread that was -- rightfully -- removed.

Lulia

09-07-2003, 06:27 PM

He knows right from wrong, and what makes him feel uncomfortable, because we have taught him what's right and what's wrong.

I have no doubt that you taughthim right from wrong, sk8er1964, but does he really understand? I mean, your son probably does, but what about other, less guided kids? Today, kids, and everybody, really, are bombarded with information, which they can't always process well, because they lack experience and wisdom. So, what is "what makes him feel uncomfortable"? A hand on his shoulder? A pat on the back? A little pat on the behind from an aunt? They may be taught what is generally right and generally wrong, but can they distinguish more subtle differences? Look at how out of control sexual harassment suits have become! A man tells me "that my boobs look good in that sweater": I tell him he's a moron and leave it at that. But how many women will cry foul? Where do we draw the line between "I feel uncomfortable when you do that" and "This is grave misconduct"?

As for kids dressing up like Christine Aguilera, well, it is a fact where I live, but it may not be as widespread as I think it is, or it may not be perceived as threatening by most people. I mean, if you wear a midriff-baring tee at 10, what will you wear at 16?