A coach and his indecent proposal

[WeBeEducated]

A teenage skater at our rink recently confided in me, and told me that his coach has said some inappropriate things to him. The skater was offended, and very stressed out over it. I advised him to tell his mom.
He took my advice and the parent is very very upset.The skater(a male pair skater) is now considering quitting the sport because of this ordeal with the male coach. The coach actually used this young man for help with errands and yard work, etc., and took the opportunity at home to offer a "secret" relationship.
Should the coach/incidents be reported to the PSA?
The USFSA?
The rink management?
The Club officers?
The other skating parents?
The skater was only interested in getting coaching from this man, not any kind of personal relationship. In fact, the boy is heterosexual, but is so good natured the coach may have confused that with being compliant, or easy to manipulate.
Since it did not happen at the rink, should this be kept quiet?

[sonora]

Depending on your role(are you a club officer? USFSA official? coach?) you may have the obligation to report this. Also, depending on the age of the boy and the law of your state, you may have the obligation to inform law enforcement.

That being said, what do the skater and his parents want to do?

[JD]

This should absolutely not be kept quiet..... Advise the family to bring in a lawyer. This is serious business that can extend liability to others, including the rink, the USFSA, [if it can be established that they knew], the section, the board of directors who hired the coach, etc. There is no need to start telling parents, they will find out soon enough through the process once a lawyer is involved. Also, advise the parents that although they can do whatever they choose on this as guardian ad litem prior to the age of 18, but the child can make their own choices on the issue regardless of what they choose once they turn 18. This can occur within a certain period of years after their 18th birthday-depends on your state's limitations act.

From a skating perspective, there may be mediation or complaint mechanisms within but the best thing to do is at least speak with a lawyer. There are different avenues depending on whether the person has reached the age of consent. Getting a lawyer will assist in guiding the process through to ensure that certain behaviours are not encouraged, that the appropriate officials will start taking it seriously and behaving in an appropriate-non sweep it under the rug-way, a lawyer can advise on the best options to proceed in reporting the issue and or discussing options. Get a copy of whatever the equivalent of the Skate Canada coaches code of conduct is-since you are in US-hope its better than Canada's-and have them bring it to their lawyer.

I just cringe at this stuff.

[Emanfan]

I know this is not a popular viewpoint, but please try to remember as well that this coach is innocent until guilt is proven or admitted.

[icyboid]

I'm not sure what the PSA is, but you definitely should contact the USFSA.

Depending on how tight they are with the said coach, the rink management and club officers may or may not be helpful in confronting him. At least the USFSA is definitely a governing authority and has the power to expunge him.

I wouldn't ask other skating parents to help confront, but if you were to ask around if the coach's done this before, I'd be subtle about it. Last thing you want is that coach to find out that people are onto him.

That is plain sexual harassment. It parallels the situation I, a heterosexual male, was having with a homosexual male coworker. Just like your son, that worker was making my otherwise enjoyable job miserable, and I considered quitting despite all the financial troubles it would cause me. It ended when I talked to HR and they dealt immediately with the situation (thanks to the great advice of SFers)

Some advice/support to tell the skater:
- It is not your fault
- It doesn't mean you're homophobic
- Fight for your right to enjoy this sport without being harassed

[DancerFan]

Originally posted by Emanfan
I know this is not a popular viewpoint, but please try to remember as well that this coach is innocent until guilt is proven or admitted.

And we all know how impossible it is to prove guilt in coaches, as it is often a very distressed minor's word against the abusive coach's. Look how many male coaches there are around who everyone knows are guilty, who live happily, continuing to sexually manipulate boys and girls.:evil: Frankly, it's fairly disgusting.

[DancerFan]

USFSA Chair of Ethics:

Pat St. Peter 612-374-4640

USFSA Chair of Grievance:

Ann O'Keefe 610-649-9474

USFSA Chair of Athlete's Advisory:

Mark Mitchell 781-237-9353

Hope this helps!

[WeBeEducated]

The boy is 17.
I am not a coach, I am a skating parent.
It has all happened within the past month, and my son brought it to my attention first when he said this boy(who is a friend of my son) has not been coming to the rink as often, and when he does come he seems stressed out.
The boy was actually embaressed to say anything to my son, even though he did not invite the inappropriate proposal! My son is also a male, teenage, hetero skater who is actually quite tolerant and accepting of various "types" but still the boy only hinted to my son that something was really bothering him about the coach.
My son told me about it. My son uses the same coach. I had heard rumours about this coach for years from a multitude of sources, so I made sure that my son was clear about behaviour/words that cross the line from typical male crude humour to suggestive inappropriate solicitation. I made sure that my own son was safe, and able to assert himself so that this coach would not see him as prey! but I never repeated the rumours, nor sought to tear down the reputation of this coach. He has been hardworking and generous, fun and supportive of my sons skating.
However, I knew something was very wrong when my son told me about the boys stress and keeping his distance from the rink as much as possible(with the AnnArbor competition coming up this boy was hurting his pair teams' chances by avoiding the rink). the boy asked the girl to practice somewhere else. I spoke with him without mentioning anyone, just mentioned his absences, and his expression(stress?unhappy?) He started out by hinting and then opened up. He said on one of his "work" days the coach approached him and offered a "secret" relationship. And..he is OLD!!!!!!!!!!!!
The boys parents have not been involved in this sport as long as me, nor as deeply. they are actually quite shocked by this(and unfortunately I am not shocked, even though I feel it is very wrong).

[WeBeEducated]

Also, the reason I am asking if it should be reported to anyone is because it was only verbal, a suggestion/invitation for a sexual relationship, but the boy was not physically touched.

[dr.frog]

Here is a link to the USFSA's sexual harassment policy document:

http://www.usfsa.org/about/forms/sexharass-policy.pdf

Quote:

"If any form of child abuse is observed or suspected by a non-mandated reporter, that person should immediately telephone either a local law enforcement or a public child welfare agency and make a report. [...] Even if observers are unsure as to whether or not an action, incident, or situation meets their state's legal definition of child abuse, they should report it."

Also:

"Harassment, as defined herein, between or among USFSA members, shall be reported to the Chair of the Ethics or Grievance Committee as soon as is practicably possible, per ECR 2.00 and GCR 2.00."

[WeBeEducated]

thankyou everyone
From what I can tell it would definately qualify as harassment, but since there was no touching involved(that I know of) I guess it wouldnt be abuse.
What a STUPID decision this coach made, especially considering he has been named in so many rumours similar to this, which he always denies. No wonder he has moved from rink to rink( at least 20 times!) over the years.
I think there is a certain reluctance on the part of the boy to bring this into the open. He would just like to forget it in some ways. It has definately affected his skating, and his interest in continuing. I hope they report it and that once and for all this coach accepts responsibility for his actions. But he wont. He will say the boy is making it up. He will deny it emphatically. How can it be proved?
The coach knows it cannot be proved! No wonder he doesnt stop or feel fear. (yes, I just now figured this out!) He has been casually accused many times, but I dont know if more than one has reported it. I do know that one boys' family did report the same kind of verbal harassment a few years ago. Nothing was done.
Nothing. The coach has learned he is safe.:x

[Emanfan]

I have to wonder - if it was indeed known that this coach had been relocated over 20 times around the circuit for allegations of inappropriate behaviour, why were people still leaving their kids with him?

[dr.frog]

I have to say, WeBeEducated, that one of the reasons why this coach has learned he is safe is probably because parents like yourself continue to entrust your children to him even when you are sure there is a problem with his behavior. You can make all the expressions of outrage you want on the net, but by being willing to look the other way as far as it affects *you*, you're just condoning his behavior.

Please, this 17-year-old boy is a child. He needs to know that adults will look after his interests and well-being. I don't care whether you report it to the USFSA or to your local child welfare agency, but since you know something is wrong, you have a responsibility to take *some* action to protect both this kid and other children who this coach may try to take advantage of in the future. Even if you are afraid it will be useless because you do not have any hard evidence of wrongdoing, when a child's welfare is at stake don't you feel like it's better for your own conscience to at least try to do what you can?

[Bailey]

Well said emanfan. It's different but when I skated, there were coaches at the club who were brutal to their skaters (calling them names, belittling them, criticizing skaters because of their body weight, etc...). I always told my mother that I would sooner quit skating than train with those coaches, and luckily she always hired the coach that I felt comfortable with who treated her skaters with respect. People forget that coaches are hired, and should be fired when they are not professional... A coach who has moved that many times with allegations of physical or sexual abuse should have references checked and would not be contracted to coach my kid.

As a coach later in my skating career, like you said, I never understood why parents would hire these coaches and entrust their children to these people. Whether it is the 'name' and the tired-belief that the coach has use these tactics to motivate a skater and push them to succeed or whether they just don't spend enough time at the rink to know what is happening, I don't know. But it's very sad...

[WeBeEducated]

Emfan, Frog., etc., I do think those are very valid points.
Yes, I have contributed to it by never reporting the rumours.
If my own child had been accosted, solicited, or suffered any inappropriate language I would have done something.
I have heard rumours about the top coaches in the USA for years, and I have heard skaters speak of their disgust with many male coaches who have harassed them over the years.But,
When we first signed up with this coach I was totally ignorant of the rumours. He came highly recommneded by other parents.
I soon learned of the rumours though and armed my son with knowledge of what to look for, watch for, and how to respond to even the slightest
sign of inappropriate behaviour. Nothing happened for 2 years. Then one day in a lesson the coach refered to body parts using crude slang that sounded suggestive too while describing how to position for a jump(like, "squeeze your a** into your crotch, etc etc etc) and my son immediately told him to please be professional with the words. That was the one and only time. The coach said he was just "joking" .I had nothing to report and hoped the rumours were not true.
I am sorry to say that I have become jaded with the skating world "horrors". It is so common to hear rumours that you begin to accept this ugly part of skating. You begin to think you cant avoid it. My son comes back from sectionals or nats telling me gory details of such things, and how it even involves famous young male skaters who offer their "support', "hotel party rooms" and special attention to young underage male skaters who are openly gay. As a parent you realize there is a strong thread running through the entire sport that does passively condone a subculture of harassment and abuse. You hear about coaches all the time.
this is the first time a situation was directly reported to me, and the first time I know the rumour is legitimate, although I do beleive most of the things i have heard abaout forms of corruption in skating on every level.
And, the coaches often offer financial discounts to talented male skaters. This sometimes is the ONLY way your skater can afford to continue.

[manleywoman]

Originally posted by dr.frog
I have to say, WeBeEducated, that one of the reasons why this coach has learned he is safe is probably because parents like yourself continue to entrust your children to him even when you are sure there is a problem with his behavior. You can make all the expressions of outrage you want on the net, but by being willing to look the other way as far as it affects *you*, you're just condoning his behavior.


I have to wholeheartedly agree here.

WeBeEducated, you may not have known about the rumors when you first signed on for lessons, but I have to wonder now that you do know and even having had luckily only one inappropriate remark in two years, wouldn't you feel better knowing your kid wasn't around the influence of this coach? Is the financial discount you imply your son is getting really worth having him take lessons from someone with a suspect background? Why wait until something DOES happen to your son...there have to be other coaches around your son could use.

If your son gets along great with the coach, then fine I suppose. But I do think you contribute to the coach feeling "safe" by allowing him to make a living off your money.:x

Inregards to the other boy...everyone else's advice sounds right on.

[GreekGoddess85]

that is terrible :(
coaches like that ugh!

[blades]

8-)

you might also considering talking to the psa office...especially if this coach is a member...

[supersk8er]

ICK, that's a really sticky situation! But I definitely think that, as long as it's not rumour and there is plenty truth to it all, it would definitely be classified as harrassment. When a young boy is uncomfortable, and being made so by his own coach, then I don't see how it could be anything else...:??

Good luck with the whole thing! **sending supportive vibes**

[butterfly]

WeBeEducated I do think that you are fortunate in that you have a good communication with your son and that through this you can be a part of protecting other children. We overlook many abuses to children in this skating world. The coaches can abuse our children verbally, physically and our only recourse is to take our children away from them and report them. We shy away from taking a stand on coaches that are cruel and sick because we think they hold the key to our child's success. Coaches have a powerful hold over these young people. Take action against these villians...skating is not worth the damage they do.

[JD]

on the subject of nasty coaches, I've just told the story on a former situation I had with switching a coach for her behaviour, that I was unwilling to tolerate-in the switching coaches thread.

Regardless of what one is willing to do, the reality is that these people [assuming the sexual harassment issue is true] remain the way they do because they are not in it for the child's best interests. They are there for glory, for self, to prey on others who are more vulnerable than they are. And in what better sport can they hide---as long as we aren't holding them up to task for it????

Emotional wellbeing of a child is far more important than any medal, or any results, such a person might bring them.

Good luck with this. My thoughts are with you in dealing with these things.

[Gingi1976]

and I understand why you have sought the adivce of other people in the forum for advice.

Yet given the sensitive nature of the things things you are describing, the trust that this young skater has for you, and condidentitality that I assume he and the family will want, perhaps it is in your best interest that this topic be discussed through e-mail and not on a message board for others to see. The coach is innocent until proven guilty and there are thousands of registered and unregistered users of this board. Someone is bound to put 2 and 2 together and then this may not be a private matter.

Just a suggestion.

[WeBeEducated]

A new day...
a million things have happened since I posted yesterday.
It is much worse than I thought. It is heartbreaking.
Let me say thank you again to everyone for your advice, and even the crtiques, because I felt that every single opinion offered here was sent with the best interest of that skater in mind.
The phone numbers helped me see that I do have a choice.
In conversations with other parents we would say that the USFSA/PSA historically have done almost nothing to discipline these known offenders. We shrugged our shoulders, disgusted with the system but not willing to remove our skaters from the sport. It seemed like that was the choice! Stop skating or accept the perversion while actively protecting our own child from the predators.
When I saw those actual phone numbers posted above, by dancer, to contact real people who will be held accountable for their response to a complaint involving what I thought might be sexual harassment(which I now know is much worse than that) it unblocked my sense of futility! And that was even before I learned last night, in a second conversation,that there is much more to this story than I had first known about.:x :(
In order to participate in this sport, to make the sacrifices seem worthwhile, to make the hours of practice seem worthwhile, to make our familys' relocating seem worthwhile, to make the goal seem worthwhile, I had to ignore a large part of the culture associated with the skating world.
But I am choosing not to do this anymore. It is a crime what the passive acceptance/coverups have led to. You tell yourself that surely fear of getting caught would keep a coach from acting on such impulses, if not morals/values/professionalism. But I was wrong.
My attitude when I first asked for advice was still totally detached from the seriousness of what has happened. In fact, I hesitated to ask at first because I figured everyone would just say "the coach is innocent unless you can prove it' etc. I questioned if I should even FEEL anything, much less DO anything.8O I kept reminding myself that everyone in skating knows to expect this sort of thing, and takes their chances. It's so common. It is sad that I have allowed that to cloud my vision. Thank you for the integrity of your replies.

[Skatewind]

Originally posted by Gingi1976
The coach is innocent until proven guilty and there are thousands of registered and unregistered users of this board.
In the case of minor children, although the coach is innocent until proven guilty legally, it's important to remove the children from the situation while allegations are pending if an initial assessment shows there is some validity to the claims.

If I believed the young man making these allegations, I would remove my child immediately from any further lessons & encourage the young man & his parents to do the same. I would discuss it with the boy & his parents first, but then I would feel compelled to report it - to the rink, the club, the USFSA. If the young man is willing to initiate a grievance, it would help prevent the abuse of anymore skaters, but that would have to be the decision of the skater & his parents.

[Sylvia]

Originally posted by blades
you might also considering talking to the psa office...especially if this coach is a member...

Professional Skaters Association website:
http://www.skatepsa.com/

This section of the site includes links to the PSA Grievance Procedure Rules and the Grievance Application Form:
http://www.skatepsa.com/Professional%20Standards.html

Another useful online resource site:
http://www.silent-edge.org/

[Skatewind]

Originally posted by Bailey
A coach who has moved that many times with allegations of physical or sexual abuse should have references checked and would not be contracted to coach my kid.
A lot of these coaches have impeccable references. That's because the previous rinks/clubs want to send them on their way as quickly as possible to avoid any liability & if no official grievances have been filed, the coaches can also threaten the former management or club legally regarding information they share about work history.

What I've seen change in the last 18 months or so is a new willingness by the USFSA to pursue grievances like this & get involved. If more parents & skaters would speak up immediately to rink & club management to document things like this, coaches would not be able to run from rink to rink or state to state so easily because there would be a paper trail instead of only a rumor mill.

[blades]

8-)

david shulman: chairman of both the ethics committee and the legal committee of the psa...(507) 289-7753...

times have changed and i believe he'll listen to you and indeed do something about your complaint if it does have merrit...

[dr.frog]

WeBeEducated, I'm very sorry to hear that the situation is even worse than you described it as yesterday, but I'm also very glad you have decided that people don't have to put up with this sort of crap in the sport. It is true that in many cases in the past the powers-that-be have looked the other way and refused to investigate or prosecute coaches who molest or harass minors, and even if you speak up there is a chance that will happen again. But if you don't speak up, then it is *certain* that nothing will be done to punish this coach or protect the skaters from his predations.

I also agree with the observation that the USFSA has started to take reported incidents of abuse much more seriously in the past year or two. At least two very well-known coaches have been quietly thrown out of the USFSA recently for sexual harassment of their students. Perhaps now that they have formal rules against abuse and harassment and a precedent for taking action, people will see the process as being less hopeless and be more encouraged to speak up when they become aware of wrongdoing.

[DancerFan]

Originally posted by blades
8-)

david shulman: chairman of both the ethics committee and the legal committee of the psa...(507) 289-7753...

times have changed and i believe he'll listen to you and indeed do something about your complaint if it does have merrit...

Unfortunately, many coaches of prestige, who have been discussed and alleged (but never proven guilty) in the past of such horrific abuses of power, have acquired high positions within the PSA. I hope you are right that times have changed, because I have personally witnessed far too many egregious acts go unpunished by both the PSA and the USFSA for years.

[icyboid]

In the meantime, this kid really needs support! Who knows, what if we lose a potential national contender here? I know we can't talk with him directly, but I'm sending whatever positive vibes I have to him.

[Lulia]

I am truly sorry that such things are allowed to happen to teenagers. But, as many people said, that coach is innocent until etc. And "children" (well, excuse me, but at 17, I don't think one should be called that anymore) are not sufficiently educated as to what constitutes harassment as opposed to inappropriate behavior.
What worries me now is that we are making the children utterly defenceless. Let me explain: I know that by definition, they ARE defenceless, but shouldn't we teach them to react, to confront abusers instead of letting worry consume us and lead to innocents having their lives destroyed?
My reason for being so eager to moderate on this subject is that my father works with children, and today, just about any innocent move can be interpreted as harassment. Geez, some children think that a teacher putting their hand on their shoulder is abuse... That is why I am as worried for teachers as for the children they try to teach.

However, by all means, I wish that you take action so that this young man gets out of that experience, if not psychologically untouched, at least with all his dignity to overcome it.

[what?meworry?]

Originally posted by WeBeEducated

...he has been named in so many rumours similar to this, which he always denies.
...he has moved from rink to rink( at least 20 times!) over the years.
I think there is a certain reluctance on the part of the boy to bring this into the open. He would just like to forget it in some ways. It has definately affected his skating, and his interest in continuing.
...He will say the boy is making it up. He will deny it emphatically. How can it be proved?
...He has been casually accused many times, but I dont know if more than one has reported it. I do know that one boys' family did report the same kind of verbal harassment a few years ago. Nothing was done.
Nothing. The coach has learned he is safe.:x


it is essential that when a pattern has been demonstrated as you so state here, that as many parents and their sons who have had similar experiences with this coach communicate (if you know of one, you are going to be able to find others---there are surely more at those 20 rinks) and, with strength of numbers, for goodness sake DO something!

IF YOU ARE NOT PART OF THE SOLUTION YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM! and, those who could do something now but won't, give this coach license to continue his preditory behaviours.

usfsa policies and prodedures for such situations are relatively recent, but provide an effective system for dealing with such issues.

usfsa action to establish this prodedure was inititiated following the difficult but incredibly important decision (after years of therapy as an adult) by craig maurizi to go public with his experiences. while that particular coach "got away" with it, more recent abusers have not.

at the time maurizi went public it was said by veteran skaters/coaches, that it was virtually "general knowledge" and there had been talk "for years" that maurizi's former coach was sexually abusive of some of his skaters (boys) and emotionally abusive of others (girls). he apparently was able to intimidate through his success as a coach and fear of being dropped as well as self blame and shame on the part of his victims.

since then, other coaches have been reported, the situations evaluated, and some have been disciplined and expelled from usfsa. the process seems to be working.

meanwhile, it is possible, but MUST NOT be assumed, that based on the boy's behaviour as you have described it, more of a physical assault may have occurred. victims have a way of blaming and shaming themselves even though they are the complete innocents.

i would suggest that because of his "withdrawal" the young man connect with a psychologist with whom he can feel safe discussing the whole situation.

additionally, i would suggest that the parents are obligated to connect (we-be, you seem likely to be able to help there) with other parents who reported the coach's inappropriate behaviours at this and the other 19 rinks.

if enough people start communicating appropriately with usfsa and psa instead of hiding in fear of making waves, something can be done before another kid falls victim to this guy.

trust usfsa. their procedures are very straight forward confidential, and structured to get th bad guys while protecting the unfairly accused, so no one need worry about repercussions.

i strongly believe that those with direct knowledge of the actions of predatory adults are morally obligated to do everything possible to prevent more young people from being abused.

[what?meworry?]

Originally posted by WeBeEducated
A new day...
...It is a crime what the passive acceptance/coverups have led to. You tell yourself that surely fear of getting caught would keep a coach from acting on such impulses, if not morals/values/professionalism. But I was wrong...
...My attitude when I first asked for advice was still totally detached from the seriousness of what has happened. In fact, I hesitated to ask at first because I figured everyone would just say "the coach is innocent unless you can prove it' etc.
...Thank you for the integrity of your replies.


ok, but does all this mean you folks found the guts to do an honest job of gathering the parents/victims involved together for strength, put the evidence together and actually DO something?

[WeBeEducated]

Were the parents naive and trusting? YES
They are relatively new to this rink. I dont think they knew they had to warn their son against being molested by a coach.
Not all skating parents know the inside story. Not all parents have a close relationship with open and frequent communication with their teen.
His parents made a mistake in not preparing him for dealing with any adult who speaks and acts inappropriately.
and because 17 isnt that young I was sure this boy could would be capable of asserting himself.
However,
emotionally he wasnt prepared for it.
He is overwhelmed with anger, guilt and shame.
He has now seen a therapist. On hearing the details the therapist immediately said that it must be reported to the authorities. An attorney
has been contacted.
The boy has not been back to the rink for most of this week.
Contact the PSA??? this coach was a founding member!
But the USFSA will be contacted.
This situation is very sad, and with all of your advice and viewpoints I realize that I cant pretend this man is honorable any longer, no matter how he has helped my own son.
thanks to all of u

[WeBeEducated]

I also feel that the USFSA code of conduct should be posted in plain view of skaters/parents/coaches at all rinks.
I think the phone numbers that you all provided to me should be clearly posted so that a child/teen could phone someone.
There should be an 800 number, a hotline, for easy access by those skaters who feel worried, confused, scared, or preyed upon by a coach. This hotline should be funded by the PSA and the USFSA.

Athletes MUST form their own organization...soon...and steer their own futures in a healthy and safe environment.

[what?meworry?]

we-be, i understand your outrage, but i hope amongst all the anger and recriminations there are some organized, thoughtful efforts to contact and encourage other victims and their parents to take a stand.

by doing so, and the odds are really good that other victims will step forward with their own factual reports, a much stronger case will be built that will stick.

if the kid and his folks stand alone, it is much easier for the coach and his representative to play the "he said, he said" game of denial. multiple sworn or notarized statements carry much greater weight.

and that business about not contacting psa because the coach was a "founding member" is a bunch of "bull-____." as if psa is a fundamentally corrupt organization each member of which knew of this coach's predatory behavior and is willing to cover up for him. i don't think so.

psa should be given the opportunity, along with usfsa, to afirm the organization's position on such preditory behaviour, test their process, and take appropriate action once the issue has been reviewed.

[what?meworry?]

Originally posted by WeBeEducated
I also feel that the USFSA code of conduct should be posted in plain view of skaters/parents/coaches at all rinks.
I think the phone numbers that you all provided to me should be clearly posted so that a child/teen could phone someone.
There should be an 800 number, a hotline, for easy access by those skaters who feel worried, confused, scared, or preyed upon by a coach. This hotline should be funded by the PSA and the USFSA.

Athletes MUST form their own organization...soon...and steer their own futures in a healthy and safe environment.

you are assuming that no coach has ever been falsely accused by a spiteful parent and/or skater.

coaches have kicked skaters out of rinks for abusive behavior towards partners, stopped working with a skater because a truely crazy parent was harassing them, etc. etc. etc. i guarantee more than one vendictive parent/skater has tried to ruin the reputation of a coach by spreading false rumors.

i certainly agree, however, that rink management should affirm and post the usfsa policy and phone numbers, but i think the parent of the victim is the first person to bring up the matter to authorities. youngsters are too easily flustered in such emotional situations.

do keep in mind there still must be an organized system that affords due process with clear accountability for the accuser as well as the accused.

the usfsa system in place seems to do a good job weeding out false accusations, if you read it carefully.

i certainly hope this particular coach, who, based on your descriptions, certainly should be disciplined in the severest manner (kick him out). your description of the situation certainly is damning.

just try very hard to get former victims and their parents involved to assure the jerk get what he deserves. (see, i've already tried and convicted him based on your published emotional information.)

[Phuket]

Originally posted by what?meworry?
we-be, i understand your outrage, but i hope amongst all the anger there is organized planning to contact and encourage other victims and their parents.

by doing so, and the odds are really good that others will step forward with their own factual reports and a case will be built that will stick.

if the kid and his folks stand along, it is easier to play the "he said, he said" game of deniel. multiple sworn or notarized statements carry much greater weight.

and that business about not contacting psa because the coach was a "founding member" is a bunch of "bull-____." as if psa is a fundamentally corrupt organization each member of which knew of this coach's preditory behavior.

psa should be given the opportunity to take a firm position through their

I'm very close to someone who has filed a PSA greivance against a coach. I'm sorry to say that what seems evident to all those "around the rink" isn't good enough for the PSA. Trust me when I say that the PSA protects their own. It's the *Professional Skaters Association* they take care of themselves, not the amateur skater. So to tell someone that it is bull-___ to report a founding member of the PSA to the PSA is, in my opinion, just ludicrous.

Sorry What?MeWorry? I really respect your opinion and knowledge in most situations, but in this case you are just wrong.

[manleywoman]

Originally posted by Phuket
I'm very close to someone who has filed a PSA greivance against a coach. I'm sorry to say that what seems evident to all those "around the rink" isn't good enough for the PSA. Trust me when I say that the PSA protects their own. It's the *Professional Skaters Association* they take care of themselves, not the amateur skater. So to tell someone that it is bull-___ to report a founding member of the PSA to the PSA is, in my opinion, just ludicrous.


BUT...it's still worthwhile to alert the PSA to the abuse. They may protect their own this time, but they won't do it if enough of these abused kids stand up to abusive coaches and report the behavior. If it will help some kid who is in a similar situation in teh future, it's worth speaking up now.

[what?meworry?]

then, by repeatedly denying valid grievances, psa will damn itself!

but avoiding the submission of a grievience, psa is allowed to continue to present itself as a fine, upstanding, self-validating, self-policing organization of coaches.

they won't have any reason to change if they aren't challenged to stand up for the rights of the skaters from whom their member coaches derive their income and hence psa derives its funding.

[Phuket]

Originally posted by what?meworry?
then, by repeatedly denying valid grievances, psa will damn itself!

but avoiding the submission of a grievience, psa is allowed to continue to present itself as a fine, upstanding, self-validating, self-policing organization of coaches.

they won't have any reason to change if they aren't challenged to stand up for the rights of the skaters from whom their member coaches derive their income and hence psa derives its funding.

You are correct What?MeWorry? in your statement...but at this time, and prior to this time, most skaters have hit a dead end when filing grievences against coaches with the PSA.

The potential to hurt the skater and that skaters career is very real. It's not as easy as you and others would like to make it out to be. We must support people like WeBeEducated who are willing to take a stand against the problems we have identified and complained about in skating.

[what?meworry?]

Originally posted by Phuket
You are corect What?MeWorry? in your statement...but at this time, and prior to this time, most skaters have hit a dead end when filing grievences against coaches with the PSA.

The potential to hurt the skater and that skaters career is very real. It's not as easy as you and others would like to make it out to be. We must support people like WeBeEducated who are willing to take a stand against the problems we have identified and complained about in skating.

that was the bad old days. usfsa used to sweep the really bad stuff, like sexual abuse by coaches, under the carpet. they've taken a strong stand on that because "the people" demanded it and not by skaters being silent. three cheers for maurizi.

along with that, usfsa has also addressed the out of control partying by underage drinking at nationals parties, inappropriate behaviours at internationals, etc. all of which they have jumped on with both feet in recent years going so far as to put skaters on probation and even suspend them for a period of time.

this is so serious that no one should permit themselves to be intimidated into silence. especially here and now. usfsa, to its credit actually took action!

more careers were ruined by inaction and silence (because of the devastating effect of sexual abuse of young skaters) than were ever ruined by taking a stand.

the name of the game is "accountability" on the part of coaches, skaters, parents and officials.

[Phuket]

Originally posted by what?meworry?
that was the bad old days. usfsa used to sweep the really bad stuff, like sexual abuse by coaches, under the carpet, along with the out of control partying by underage drinking at nationals parties, inappropriate behaviours at internationals, etc. all of which they have jumped on with both feet in recent years going so far as to put skaters on probation and even suspend them for a period of time.

this is so serious that no one should permit themselves to be intimidated into silence. especially here and now. usfsa, to its credit actually took action!

more careers were ruined by inaction and silence (because of the devastating effect of sexual abuse of young skaters) than were ever ruined by taking a stand.

Well I don't know about your last paragraph, especially given the times and the politics (for lack of a better word) of skating, but as far as the rest of it goes, I totally agree. Please report this situation to the USFSA. I'm not sure that the PSA will act.

[Poohsk8s2]

My heart goes out to all involved We-Be! It is such a tough situation. Please tell the parents to file a report, but also know that unless they are willing to come under public scrutiny, a report is probably where it will end.

We have a coach at one of our area rinks who has been banned by the PSA, yet can be found on the ice on any given day coaching a "USFSA enveloped" pair team. The team competes with his best friend's wife (3 states away) named as coach. Furthermore, he has now been given the position of running the rink in which he is coaching in spite of the lifetime sanction. He too had a reputation that was stated in whispers, so many refusing to believe it to be true. His ban came after his victim was villified repeatedly in public, on the news and in the papers. She endured the pain while his guilt was proven. The toll it took on her family was enormous. Yet it has not made one bit of difference in keeping him away from skaters.

It is time that the voices of the kids be heard in manner that they are protected and that a ban from coaching MEANS a ban from coaching. Unfortunately, I think that will mean actions against skaters that continue to use culprits who have had their guilt proven.

[what?meworry?]

just as convicted sexual preditors and posted on a list in "real life" these coaches who have been banned or even sanctioned should be posted at rinks. (i believe they do this with hockey suspensions, but the two situations are not at all comparable in severity. the hockey thing is the rough equivalent of making the guy who beat up the ref stand in the corner for a while while wearing a dunce hat).

there must be accountability and consequences or this will not end.

[Poohsk8s2]

ITA WhatmeWorry! You hit the nail on the head when you mention accountability and consequences... as I see things, right now it is only talk with no action.

[nycbumpkin]

it would be so nice if the organizations were as upstanding as they claim to be...but i agree with many other post-ers who state the PSA is useless and only covering their own members' butts...and the USFSA might be trying a bit harder but remember some of the names given out on this board are volunteers at their jobs (grievance committees) and things just don't happen the way they should...through a recent experience I can say I am DISGUSTED with the PSA and pretty disappointed in the usfsa as well...as to this situation whether the involved parties like it or not, i'm afraid it's probably illegal NOT to report it, which sounds like now it is reported, to legal authorities...that's probably the best bet to stop it more quickly, the PSA and usfsa have been way too slow to stop this crap, and i don't see them protecting anyone from false accusations either, just a general incompetence on their part, really disappointing

[butterfly]

Originally posted by Lulia
I am truly sorry that such things are allowed to happen to teenagers. But, as many people said, that coach is innocent until etc. And "children" (well, excuse me, but at 17, I don't think one should be called that anymore) are not sufficiently educated as to what constitutes harassment as opposed to inappropriate behavior.
What worries me now is that we are making the children utterly defenceless. Let me explain: I know that by definition, they ARE defenceless, but shouldn't we teach them to react, to confront abusers instead of letting worry consume us and lead to innocents having their lives destroyed?This response is just why our kids are out there unprotected from the abusers in skating. Always give the coaches the benefit of the doubt (they hold all the power anyway) and blame it on the kid because they have not been taught how to handle a situation that should never even come their way. Oh please, how does a young child "confront" a coach. You must be daffy to think that students no matter what there age can "confront" these coaches. As adults, our job is to listen and take action if we find wrong. Unless a very big noise is made by a great many people the USFSA and PSA and any other advocate group will ignore trouble. They do not really care about our kids they care about money and their organization. It is our responsibility to shout loudly that we will not accept this in our coaches, teachers and any other adult in charge of our young people.

[Skatewind]

Originally posted by Phuket
Please report this situation to the USFSA. I'm not sure that the PSA will act.
I agree. There is going to be a big difference between reporting it to the USFSA & reporting it to the PSA. By making all coaches become members of the USFSA, at least the USFSA has now ensured that reports of this nature can be moved effectively through their system. The USFSA has made improvements in this area, but I don't believe the PSA effectively deals with these problems.

As far as getting hotlines & specific information posted at all rinks, I don't think it will be happening anytime soon because not all rinks have a direct affiliation to USFSA. It is important for USFSA & clubs to get the information out to their membership though.

[Skatewind]

Originally posted by Lulia
I am truly sorry that such things are allowed to happen to teenagers. But, as many people said, that coach is innocent until etc. And "children" (well, excuse me, but at 17, I don't think one should be called that anymore) are not sufficiently educated as to what constitutes harassment as opposed to inappropriate behavior.
The situation described is about abuse of power & preying on a minor, it is not about a teacher putting his hand on a student's shouder. And whether you agree 17 is a child or not, it is still an age of minority & for a coach to do this is an abuse of power.

[manleywoman]

A lot of people here are saying that the PSA won't act if you file a report, but I still say it's worth it to file the report to them. The only way to make them notice is for everybody to make them aware when abuse happens, and pressure them to acknowledge it.

Plus, if this coach is high enough up on the PSA and hears that reports are being filed against him, it will at the very least probably curb his behavior a bit if he knows he's being "watched" and skaters aren't afraid to report him.

As an aside...I've always wondered how this particular coach managed to get some really well regarded and award-winning skaters come through years of his training relatively unscathed. They don't seem to have any repercussions of abuse (on the surface anyway).

[Skatewind]

It costs $50 to file a grievance with the PSA. Considering they advocate for coaches, those funds would be better spent on an attorney & pursuing a USFSA grievance since the USFSA is obligated to look out for the the boy's interests since he is a member. The USFSA can always notify the PSA of the outcome.

[butterfly]

Here is a thought...maybe the media could take the skating world to task for not answering these warnings about coaches. I know that figure skating doesn't need anymore bad press but this is about abuse of kids, what matters more than this. If the USFSA doesn't take firm action against these predators then maybe FOX and CNN would do the job. We need parents, rink managers and administrators, USFSA, PSA and coaches to all take part in making this unacceptable behavior.

[chattykathy]

along with that, usfsa has also addressed the out of control partying by underage drinking at nationals parties, inappropriate behaviours at internationals, etc. all of which they have jumped on with both feet in recent years going so far as to put skaters on probation and even suspend them for a period of time

This is a whole different topic, but I didnt see any stompin on the parties in the past three years.

Please encourage this skater to contact the USFSA, his club and the rink, make a stink. We owe it to the next pair boy to come along. I want to know who this coach is, so that I can make sure my own child stays far from that rink and club. I will try my hardest to make sure that she is never involved in a situation similar to this again.

Are you really willing to give up all your beliefs and morals because you are skating well?

[dr.frog]

As I pointed out before, it's easy to complain on the net about abuse and harassment, or to complain that somebody else (the USFSA, the PSA, the media, whatever) should do something about it. But the only people who really *can* do anything to stop it are the people who are involved with the situation first-hand. If skaters who have been abused and/or their parents are unwilling to prosecute, if other parents who are aware that the coach is child molester continue to send their own children to work with him, if the rink or club is aware that the coach has a history of problem behavior but continues to allow him to work on their ice, it's not reasonable to expect outsiders who have no direct knowledge of the situation to do anything to stop it. That's why I so strongly urge people who do have direct knowledge of abuse to speak up. The situation isn't going to go away unless you take some action yourself to stop it.

[Skatewind]

Originally posted by butterfly
Here is a thought...maybe the media could take the skating world to task for not answering these warnings about coaches.
Currently I don't think the problem is that the USFSA is not acting on written complaints, but rather that parents, skaters & involved parties are not always filing them. There were 3 grievances outlined in the recent Skating magazine. The USFSA has overlooked this problem in the past, but I no longer think that's the case.

I'm sure the media would have a field day with the gossip from the rumor mill that goes from rink to rink, but that's not what's going to solve the problem. What will solve the problem is establishing a paper trail so when a coach tries to go to a new rink or club, & the new facility or club checks his references, they can find out that old rink or club has a number of written complaints from skaters & parents about it. That & the abused skaters going after the coach through his liability insurance.

[butterfly]

Originally posted by Skatewind
Currently I don't think the problem is that the USFSA is not acting on written complaints, but rather that parents, skaters & involved parties are not always filing them. There were 3 grievances outlined in the recent Skating magazine. The USFSA has overlooked this problem in the past, but I no longer think that's the case.

I'm sure the media would have a field day with the gossip from the rumor mill that goes from rink to rink, but that's not what's going to solve the problem. What will solve the problem is establishing a paper trail so when a coach tries to go to a new rink or club, & the new facility or club checks his references, they can find out that old rink or club has a number of written complaints from skaters & parents about it. That & the abused skaters going after the coach through his liability insurance. Well....why are certain coaches with this problem still coaching young people. Disciplining these individuals means nothing. Is it the rink management that is at fault? Even a law suit doesn't seem to bring these coaches to justice and away from young people.

[celtic]

I have not read all the posts iin this thread, as I am at work. The first one caught my eye and I glanced through them. I want to address this because I have been there first hand and brought action, which was successful. As a long-time USFSA member and parent of a former skater, I can hopefully help you on certain points.

1. Anyone under the age of 18 is, to the USFSA, a minor. It does not matter what state events occurred in (i.e., in certain states it is legal for an adult to have sex with a child of 17, so no charges can be filed). The USFSA, however, will take investigate and can take action, which can include anything from a reprimand to a permanent ban.

2. Notify the rink. If the parents of the skater complain, steps will be taken by the rink management, regardless of the coach's credentials, background, etc. Rinks do not want liability because of their insurance.

3. Notify the PSA if the coach is a member. They can investigate, and will! Many coaches are members of the ISI and/or the PSA for insurance coverage. Either of these organizations are serious about following through with allegations.

4. Get all the facts in writing and any corroborating material! The USFSA, nor the PSA or ISI, can do anything about vague rumors or innuendos. If there is nothing like a note from the coach to the skater or anything else concrete, the skater will probably have to make a statement. REMEMBER; If your state considers the victim to be a minor, you have a lot more leverage, but the rinks and the USFSA and PSA have strong ethics guidelines.

5. Coaches move around a lot and if nothing has been done about this coach in the past, it is your or the parents' responsbility, to take action now in order to stop this coach's behavior. At the least, perhaps a rink's firing will preclude another area rink to hire him.

6. Be prepared for backlash from other coaches, other parents, and other skaters! Believe it or not, many parents are willing to ignore or disbelieve if they like the coach!

7. Sexual harrassment charges by the USFSA may require that the alleged misconduct occurred at practice for a competition at the competition itself. I do not have my rulebook with me. At the least, the incident(s) you describe are ethical violations as defined by the USFSA.

8. Some good references: Caroline Silbey's recent book has at least one chapter on sexual misbehavior of coaches. Check it out!

9. Again, substantiate any and all claims! Good luck! And don't give up!

I know this is a LONG post, but I have "been there and done that". I had sufficient evidence in writing and witnesses and received a tremendous amount of support from USFSA members and officials. At the least, contact the Ethics Chair, Pat St. Peter (who, by the way, is a trial attorney in "real life") and the Grievance Chair. The USFSA is serious about this type of misconduct. And don't forget the power of the press!!!

[Trillian]

Originally posted by butterfly
Well....why are certain coaches with this problem still coaching young people.

Because--no matter what steps are taken to prevent these coaches from taking charge of young people, it all comes down to the parents who are willing to entrust their children to the coach in question. You can get a coach barred by the USFSA and the PSA--but 99% of the time, if said coach has any level of influence within the sport, there will still be somewhere he/she can coach. There's no action that can be taken to ban someone from every sheet of ice in the country, short of a criminal conviction that lands him or her in prison.

As for the parents who do continue to allow their child to be coached by someone who's been disciplined for such behavior, I'd like to think it's not because they don't care. In most cases, it's because they honestly think either that the coach was treated unfairly or because they don't think their own kid will be a target. But if some action as been taken against the coach, although it may not discourage everyone, at least it will influence some people to look elsewhere. You can't protect everyone, but whatever you can do will help.

[Skatewind]

Originally posted by butterfly
Well....why are certain coaches with this problem still coaching young people. Disciplining these individuals means nothing. Is it the rink management that is at fault? Even a law suit doesn't seem to bring these coaches to justice and away from young people.
If they have been disciplined by the USFSA or PSA & banned or suspended, but are still coaching, then it is a problem with the rinks & skaters/parents continuing to hire them despite their record & past history. Where I live, private rinks can hire whoever they want but usually do so within reason. These coaches would not be able to work at municipal rinks if they have a documented history of this behavior.

I thought you meant taking things to the media instead of or because the USFSA isn't doing anything. I think the USFSA is doing something now & that is the best process to use in conjuction with child protective services when applicable, rather than going to the media first. If that is not what you meant, then sorry I misunderstood.

[WeBeEducated]

Isnt it interesting that the 2 big name coaches that were "banned" by the USFSA were coaches whose inappropriate behaviour involved heterosexual relationships with girls? I mean, come on people, the vast majority of rumours circulating are about male coaches(some still in the closet after 40 years of secretly preying upon male skaters) behaving inappropriately with young male skaters. Yet these people flourish within the USFSA. I believe there are too many people at all levels within the USFSA/PSA actually empathizing with these coaches, for any serious changes to occur within the system.
Within the heirarchy of Officials, Judges, and Coaches...a confederacy of condoners exists. Why else would the entire 20th century pass by
before the USFSA even quietly acknowledged the problem?
As I said before, the rumours are so common, so obviously legitimate, and so often confirmed by the skaters involved, that I didnt even flinch when this boy first revealed a small portion of what he has endured.
So, yes, I distrust the organization. I do not think either the PSA or USFSA have done anything meaningful to send the message that they have failed to protect the skaters from predatory coaches. The PSA code of ethics is far more concerned with coaches "$tealing" students from each other than any other issue. the USFSA is now requiring a $125 fee to file a greivance...they said they want to discourage grievances. Surprized?
More than ever I now believe the athletes need to form their own organization. I plan to assist my son in looking into this quite seriously. I know how the PSA began quite humbly(our coach told us because he was a part of it!) An ASA, (amatuer skaters association) will gain acceptance quickly because the skaters are sick of all the forms of corruption in this sport.They need their own voice, and they need to align their power within their own ranks rather than begging the old boys club to speak on their behalf. As for the coach at my rink, I believe he is running scared. He is trying to pressure the boy to "talk it over". :lol:
As for whatmeworry's suggestion that a hotline shouldnt be used because the parents should be the ones to complain, let me point out this: the parents are often the last to know.
In the case of this boy YOU people knew about the same time the parents were informed. 8O
A hotline is not for arbitration. A hotline is a lifeline for young people in danger. It will provide them with a safe place to annonymously seek advice. Most young males do NOT want to talk about abuse to anyone who knows them, from what I can tell. If they are being abused and their mind resists but their body responds...they are horrified and confused. A hotline will advise them to write down the times, the specifics, and the locations, and to show this documentation to their parent . Names do not need to be given. The child/teen would understand the hotline is not a grievance filing site. it could also be web based. It is long overdue. I intend to urge the USFSA and the PSA to fund it. Or perhaps this will be the first job of the future ASA.

[nycbumpkin]

the usfsa website says it costs $125 to file a grievance now, fyi...i think legal action is better use of money, the usfsa still has way too many situations left UNhandled

[fluorescein]

Is it typical for professional organizations that claim to police their members to charge $ for filing a grievance? That seems very bizarre to me. (Not that the whole figure skating culture doesn't seem like it exists in some alternate universe.)

As the parent of a very young skater, I'm just way too :( and 8O to even process most of what I'm reading here.

[manleywoman]

Originally posted by WeBeEducated
Isnt it interesting that the 2 big name coaches that were "banned" by the USFSA were coaches whose inappropriate behaviour involved heterosexual relationships with girls? I mean, come on people, the vast majority of rumours circulating are about male coaches(some still in the closet after 40 years of secretly preying upon male skaters) behaving inappropriately with young male skaters.

I think that is because boys are too embarrassed to admit that another man has preyed upon them, whereas there are messages all over the place supporting abused girls to speak up about male predators. Sad but true.

[what?meworry?]

we-be, as outraged as i understand we all should be, and you because of your close association with this situation, i am becoming quite concerned that you continue to rant and rant about public and instantaneous accusations.

there is, if you truely wish to be successful in nailing a predatory coach, a process you must follow.

due process affirms the validity of the accusation. borderline hysterical ranting does not. accusation that organizations won't do anything anyway, doesn't.

i would hope you, the youngster, and his parent(s) would deliberately and armed with corroboration from all those others rumored about, would go after this guy in a manner that will succeed in getting him banned.

so far i read mush agnst, much verbal thrashing, and no where near enough deliberate, focused attack.

[Skatewind]

Originally posted by WeBeEducated
Isnt it interesting that the 2 big name coaches that were "banned" by the USFSA were coaches whose inappropriate behaviour involved heterosexual relationships with girls? I mean, come on people, the vast majority of rumours circulating are about male coaches(some still in the closet after 40 years of secretly preying upon male skaters) behaving inappropriately with young male skaters. Yet these people flourish within the USFSA. I believe there are too many people at all levels within the USFSA/PSA actually empathizing with these coaches, for any serious changes to occur within the system.
I agree with manleywoman. I don't think the vast majority of incidents involve gay coaches. Don't turn it into a gay thing because it's not. It's child abuse. Other than the rumor mill, name the grievances that have been filed & dismissed against these coaches. The only one I know about was the one by Craig Maurizi, & there were issues with that one due to the time that had elapsed that contributed to the dismissal. I really think the problem is skaters & parents won't file complaints & seek legal recourse or report it to social services when problems occur. Then there are parents who enable these coaches by employing them even though they are fully aware of rumors or even confirmed problems. Some parents & skaters simply don't care when they are totally focused on winning at all costs & someone can teach them what they need.

[celtic]

I have to agree with manleywoman and Skatewind that this is not a gay thing. And Skatewind is right on: the problem IS skaters and parents who won't do anything about these situations! In the situation I am familiar with, a parent years before would not file any charges or grievance for a number of reasons, one of which was to keep his daughter from being named and from having to go through the court process, and also, to protect the coach's family! Then years later the coach, who had moved around, repeated his behavior. Other parents continued to employ the coach because of his so-called expertise!

What?meworry? offers the best advice about action: there is a process you msut follow, which is the main thing you can do to stop this behavior.

If you have grounds, the parents should approach the rink first off. Then follow the grievance process of the USFSA. Be focused, don't post any more about the situation, and, with corroboration, go afer the creep! If one rink fires him, notify other rinks where he might try to find employment. If not, this will continue!

[WeBeEducated]

I dont intend to apologize for being emotional as I witness first hand the manipulation,harassment, exploitation, and abuse of a skater that is a friend of ours.
And if it seems as if my anger is gathering rather than receeding, it is!
The more I know about this particular case the more outraged I become.
Although I havnt been(and wont be) posting any more of the details that are surfacing, those details are real and graphic and upsetting, particularly to hear how it is affecting the skater.
I have undergone a total change in my attitude since I first posted, and that is because of the excellent advice and powerful messages I have received from all of you. thank you for your strong stand.
Do I plan on being silent anymore? NO. I have even outlined some specific and important actions I fully intend to undertake. We have already begun the groundwork for some of them.
You may not understand or believe that action against a coach/coaches may cause hardship for my own skater-son, but I know full well that it will. I know that it puts him in a very awkward position for many reasons that only those involved in competition will understand. the skating world is actually very small. But we intend to do what we can to expose not just this coach, but as many of the others as possible who use their power to exploit skaters.
I know that many skaters who were rumoured to have been harassed by this coach were paid off in one form or another. They were "supported" in their competitive skating,, and feel somehow grateful, so they will be reluctant to discuss the past, but I am trying to locate them.
We will follow through with the PSA and the USFSA, the police, and more.
I dont know which of my comments whatmeworry considers "ranting and ranting", but I shall continue to "rant", and expose the conspiracy of silence that runs from the bottom to the top of the skating culture. It may not be what you want to hear, but I have a new passion to end the coverups, and make those involved as uncomfortable as possible.
The great majority of skaters are under the age of 18. Information has not been accessible to them. I plan on changing that

[DancerFan]

Originally posted by WeBeEducated
I dont intend to apologize for being emotional as I witness first hand the manipulation,harassment, exploitation, and abuse of a skater that is a friend of ours....

You have no need to apologize, and have the support of MANY posters here, as well as MANY silent lurkers, USFSA officials, coaches, and skaters. As hard as it is and will be, I think you will soon be pleasantly surprised at the swell of support this will bring. It has been going on for far too long, and MUCH of the skating community is SICK of such abuses of power.

[Lulia]

But the only people who really *can* do anything to stop it are the people who are involved with the situation first-hand. If skaters who have been abused and/or their parents are unwilling to prosecute, if other parents who are aware that the coach is child molester continue to send their own children to work with him, if the rink or club is aware that the coach has a history of problem behavior but continues to allow him to work on their ice, it's not reasonable to expect outsiders who have no direct knowledge of the situation to do anything to stop it.

Very well and reasonably said

Child molester, predator, monster, whatever you want to call him, it's not enough to rant and whine and put the blame on someone else. Take action now, confront the accused, find psychological support for the victim. That's the problem with the world today: we always take the long way around, call that organization, get that media's attention, etc. But has anyone talked to the coach in question? Is he a raving sociopath as well as an (for the moment) alleged molester that you can't reasonably think of having a talk with HIM? Do you realise that you are making it much worse for the victim by ranting and threatening endlessly than by taking. concrete. action. NOW?

As well, someone attacked my opinion by saying that it is the kind that causes such situations. Well, what do I expect, I don't think like the crowd. :roll:

[celtic]

The USFSA will take action if you have a valid complaint. Be prepared for the other skaters, parents, and other coachs to be unwilling to come forward. No one wants their name involved if they had prior knowledge. However, the victim(s), his/her parents, and perhaps a witness will give statements. Interesting, the particular club may not want to be involved and may even be unsupportive, depending on how much they have invested in the coach, or how many of the member skaters take from him.

A club in Dallas was unwilling to do anything about a coach a few years back. Although they claimed they did not hire coaches, they had been advertising in Skating magazine for coaches at the time in question, and even extended a loan, I believe it was for a down payment on a home or for a builder or building lot, from club funds to get the coach to move! (Clubs are tax exempt institutions and no members are allowed to personally benefit. I think it is termed inurement.) Later, when facts came out, apparently they were unwilling to admit to any involvement, but enough people knew of it. Even so, the USFSA took action and the club, being a USFSA club, had no input into the decision of the governing body.

[valuvsmk]

Originally posted by celtic
The USFSA will take action if you have a valid complaint. Be prepared for the other skaters, parents, and other coachs to be unwilling to come forward. No one wants their name involved if they had prior knowledge. However, the victim(s), his/her parents, and perhaps a witness will give statements. Interesting, the particular club may not want to be involved and may even be unsupportive, depending on how much they have invested in the coach, or how many of the member skaters take from him.

A club in Dallas was unwilling to do anything about a coach a few years back. Although they claimed they did not hire coaches, they had been advertising in Skating magazine for coaches at the time in question, and even extended a loan, I believe it was for a down payment on a home or for a builder or building lot, from club funds to get the coach to move! (Clubs are tax exempt institutions and no members are allowed to personally benefit. I think it is termed inurement.) Later, when facts came out, apparently they were unwilling to admit to any involvement, but enough people knew of it. Even so, the USFSA took action and the club, being a USFSA club, had no input into the decision of the governing body.

If the inaction of a particular club was found in such a situation during an investigation by the USFSA, couldn't the club or its officials be sanctioned or held liable in some way by either the USFSA (or, in the case of a lawsuit, by the court)?

[celtic]

Interesting point. Perhaps the USFSA took the action they deemed appropriate, and since the matter was taken care of, the club could say it was letting governing body handle it? Chicken, yes. The club should have done something! And a personal loan to an individual coach? Get real, they knew that was wrong!

As far as a lawsuit, that would be at the discretion of the individual bringing the complaint. Maybe he/she didn't want to pursue it, who knows? It sounds like the club could have been found liable. At least, they should be accountable for doing nothing!

[Uncle TimButton]

At the risk of inciting a riot - as I read these posts the need to address this issue through a well documented and rumor-free approach is very clear. From what I've been reading - there must be more to the incident then what has been shared. What I've read in the first note is that "his coach has said some inappropriate things to him." - and in the subsequent pages the discussion was about sexual predator. There is a lot of ground between an inappropriate comment, suggestion, or even a proposition and a sexual predator. If the inappropriate comment or proposition was made - and rejected - and it ended there; you have an idiot, foolish, "what-was-he-thinking", "I don't want him around" kind of an adult - but a predator? I'm not there yet; not if it stopped after the comment, even to a 17 year old. Given that the boy (young man) was 17 (in most states the statutory rape laws are at 16), a proposition may not be criminal. In our area we've had a recent case of a sexual predator - it involved deceit, lies, and an attempted kidnapping. But a proposition - (albeit highly inappropriate) doesn't get me to predatory behavior. Unwelcome sexual advances may be just that unwelcome and advances - but if there isn't coercion, retribution or more - you may not have a harassment or a crime.

While wrong and morally offensive - an inappropriate comment doesn't usually send a person into such a tailspin. That being said, this young man is having some significant reaction - which suggests there was something more then just an inappropriate comment made. The details don't need to be discussed here but it is all the more reason that it be addressed in a well documented method with the appropriate organizations. That should involve the club that may have some liability concerns, the USFSA, PSA, and if warranted, local law enforcement.

Professional organizations won't be ignoring grievances. In this day and age not acting on grievances has proven to be the downfall of groups. How that organization acts is a tough one to call if you have two people contradicting each other. In this case a "he says/he says" scenario is a difficult case to manage. But the importance of filing is paramount - maybe this has happened before and is documented, not rumored - then the organization is in a much different position.

I guess I've read some significant, serious, and detailed reactions without a commensurate seriousness in the initial incident shared, and maybe that's out of the better discretion of the poster. It sounds like the young man has a strong support network - which is critical. I would hope that this network would expand - especially if this is followed through with the appropriate organizations and not the rumor mill.

[terisalyn]

It seems from subsequent posts that a "proposition" was not all that occurred. But even if it was, it is still sexual harassment when that proposition comes from someone in a position of power, such as a coach, teacher, boss, etc. It's a shame that we need to teach our children how to deal with these sorts of situations because we can't count on the adults in positions of responsibility to behave ethically.

That said, I believe that it must be reported to every possible concerned agency or group. And keep extensive documentation of all contacts, including phone calls, with record of time and date and who was spoken to. Keep copies of all letters, forms, and papers sent.

The most important thing in all this is the young man involved's well-being, though. I hope that he is getting counseling, and can realize that he is not responsible for this coach's criminality.

[butterfly]

Originally posted by terisalyn
It seems from subsequent posts that a "proposition" was not all that occurred. But even if it was, it is still sexual harassment when that proposition comes from someone in a position of power, such as a coach, teacher, boss, etc. It's a shame that we need to teach our children how to deal with these sorts of situations because we can't count on the adults in positions of responsibility to behave ethically.

That said, I believe that it must be reported to every possible concerned agency or group. And keep extensive documentation of all contacts, including phone calls, with record of time and date and who was spoken to. Keep copies of all letters, forms, and papers sent.

The most important thing in all this is the young man involved's well-being, though. I hope that he is getting counseling, and can realize that he is not responsible for this coach's criminality. Well said!! I couldn't agree with you more. Why should young people or adults have to deal with this kind of behavior. The idea that we should minimize this is ludicrous. Uncle TimButton, yes indeed this person is a predator. A kidnapper that drives up and says "get in my car little girl and you can have some candy" is a predator even if the little girl runs away. Coaches harrassing their vulnerable students should be treated with all seriousness.

[DancerFan]

:evil: And if this coach is who we all think it is, he's been getting away with HORRIFIC and vulgar acts of sexual abuse FOR YEARS! :evil:

Please someone - help STOP HIM!

[Skatewind]

Originally posted by fluorescein
Is it typical for professional organizations that claim to police their members to charge $ for filing a grievance?
Some do & some don't. I can understand why some organizations might feel the need to impose a filing fee if they are getting a lot of frivolous complaints. For example, in Skating magazine one was outlined where a club & an individual (member or coach) had filed grievances against each other. The report said the club was not acting within their own Bylaws & specified several other problems. They were dismissed & the parties were charged fees.

It would be good if there was a policy where a filing fee is billed to costs & then credited back if the grievance is found in favor of the filing party.

[WeBeEducated]

Uncle Tim, there is indeed much more to the story than I originally posted. After the first hesitant disclosure, which I took at face value and posted on, a much more troubling and serious story unfurled from this young man in waves of alternating anger and despair. I had never been face to face with a young person whose emotional wounds from being sexually exploited were fresh, raw and very very real.
I do not want to post any more of the details, except to say that beyond a shadow of a doubt i believe the skater, and the skater revealed details that put the coach in the category of predator.
Now we have a tall, strong, athletic boy who loves skating Pairs rethinking if he wants to continue in a sport where sexual abuse is not only fairly common, it is often unchallenged.

IF he had seen with his own eyes, at the rink, in front of skaters, parents, coaches that USFSA ethics code and specific phone numbers for grievances, I do believe it would have reinforced his ability to reject the inappropriate behaviour sooner, and I think it would have discouraged the coach from taking that chance.
This could easily be "forgotten" or "worked out" as I now think was done in the past with this coach. But I think my own children would learn a bizarre lesson if I allowed that to happen. All of the skaters at the rink deserve to be taught that at NO time is sexual harassment, exploitation, or abuse by a coach to a skater justifiable, or unpunishable.
I have to act now to stop the cycle that has existed for so long, where everyone knew of the rumours, and also knew that a great deal of tolerance for unethical behaviour existed within the skating culture.

[blades]

8-)

"sexual abuse is fairly common"???...c'mon!...that's taking it a little bit too far...

unheard of?...no...but farily common?...time to get a grip...

[DancerFan]

Originally posted by blades
8-)

"sexual abuse is fairly common"???...

Absolutely - where have you been????? It runs rampant and has been allowed to happen for YEARS, sheltered and hushed by both the USFSA and the PSA! Time to put an end to it once and for all!

[Uncle TimButton]

I thought there was more to the story, WeBeEducated, and your discretion on what to post is well placed - that level of detail doesn't need to be shared on such a public forum. I believe it will need to be discussed with the appropriate people/organizations so that the situation is addressed. The cycle can only be stopped when people say something...it won't just go away.

Good for you for getting involved and being an advocate.

With the right support, I hope the young man involved will be able to separate the actions of this individual from his love of the sport.

WeBeEducated - your "name" is right on target - shows that we need to continue to educate ourselves and our kids of what's out there and how to deal with it.

Thanks,
utb

[blades]

8-)

where have i been???...welllllllll...since i started skating in '57 (we actually were using the "new" steel blades by then, in favour of bone blades...)...i've been a competitor...an instructor...skated in ice shows in the states, canada and japan...managed ice rinks...installed rink floors...and am currently a member of the p.s.a...

but...what da hell do i know eh?...

i've seen that of which y'all speak of...but i can also say that though it does happen...to call it "fairly common" is a bit much...

and personally, in all those years, though i have been "hit" on a few times by gay men, each time the "no thanks..wrong team" message was accepted gracefully... i've never been accosted, abused or threatened in any way...

[Poohsk8s2]

I am so happy to know that there are still people like you out there WeBe... I witnessed firsthand the angst, pain, suffering, humiliation, and loneliness suffered by a young lady who made allegations (eventually proven) against her former coach. In the investigation there were reports of as many as 19 others that had suffered at the hands of this man BUT none would come forward because of how she was vilified publicly. To even launch an argument in her defense while this was going on brought remarks like "slander" or "innocent until proven guilty"
And while I agree that everyone is innocent until proven guilty, I also believe that public discussions on forums such as this are valuable. However, few will discuss these matters outside of hushed rumours for fear of various retaliations. In the case here, parents feared that their skater could be hurt with judges, shunned by off-ice coaches, or have ice time compromised. As adults, they just wanted to stay uninvolved. I thought at the time this coach should have been put on "leave" until he made his case. There was also tremndous denial... it was easier to go about daily activity than to acknowlege "the King's New Clothes"

Good Luck to you, and prayers to your friend and his family. With all the mighty talk about the USFSA and PSA taking action... all I can say is this... put consequences behind the talk. As I said before this "banned" coach just recieved an envelope for his pairs team and has been given a job running yet another rink less than 20 miles from the one in which he was cited for misconduct. And isn't that a great message to send our kids?? :(:cry:

[Trillian]

Originally posted by Poohsk8s2
To even launch an argument in her defense while this was going on brought remarks like "slander" or "innocent until proven guilty"
And while I agree that everyone is innocent until proven guilty, I also believe that public discussions on forums such as this are valuable.

As I'm pretty positive I know the situation you're referring to, it should be mentioned that I've been told the accused person in question contacted the owner(s) of at least one message board threatening a lawsuit anytime a thread started naming names. Hence, so many of those discussions simply disappeared. (Frankly, I'm waiting for him to go after this one, since anyone familiar with the situation knows who's being referenced in your post.) And to be fair, "innocent until proven guilty" is there for a reason. But the discussion of these situations without naming names of people whose misconduct hasn't been "proven" is certainly valuable. I've had conversations with way too many people in this sport who've thought they had to keep quiet about things (including info about the situation you're discussing, in fact) because they felt they had no other reasonable alternative. Simply realizing that there is something else they can do is valuable--no kid in a situation like this should feel that their only option is to keep quiet.

[jenlyon60]

Given that the USFSA records the birthdates of its skaters in their membership records... it should also be possible for them to put together a mailing or flyer specifically targeted towards "under 18s" (or pick an age) that discusses in kid language the USFSA's position on abuse. The mailing needs to be legally and factually correct, but it needs to be in kid language, not lawyer-ese. And it should provide "Jane Doe"/"John Doe" examples.

AND in the mailing, clearly outline what a kid should do and what resources are available... i.e. talk to the parents, school counselors, the skating director, contact USFSA, etc.

Simply having a statement of position and taking action when someone actually files a grievance isn't enough.

[Skatewind]

Originally posted by Trillian
As I'm pretty positive I know the situation you're referring to, it should be mentioned that I've been told the accused person in question contacted the owner(s) of at least one message board threatening a lawsuit anytime a thread started naming names. Hence, so many of those discussions simply disappeared. (Frankly, I'm waiting for him to go after this one, since anyone familiar with the situation knows who's being referenced in your post.) And to be fair, "innocent until proven guilty" is there for a reason.
That one was proven guilty. The problem with the message boards sometimes regarding things like this is failure to stick to verifiable facts. So information such as links to news stories or factual details about the grievance & complaint would not have to be shut down, even if a lawsuit is threatened. It's the speculative stuff, like "didn't he do such & such" or "did it happen with so & so" when it's inaccurate that would cause a thread to be shut down.

Which is why it's so important to have a paper trail. Then specific information can be referenced. BTW, why is this coach still coaching after that? Because he's been hired by skaters, parents & an ice rink who must know his history & are willing to go along with it anyway. Can't blame that one on the USFSA or PSA.

I also have to agree with blades this is not running rampant nationwide. Although everyone has heard many stories, compare it to the real numbers of coaches & skaters, & it's happening no more or no less than many other sports. The main problem seems to be with a few coaches who are multiple offenders over long periods of time, not with a majority of coaches doing this to all kids on an everyday basis.

[skaternum]

Originally posted by jenlyon60
Simply having a statement of position and taking action when someone actually files a grievance isn't enough.

I agree completely, Jen! It's time for the governing bodies to stop sticking their heads in the sand and begin to proactively address this issue.

[Trillian]

Originally posted by Skatewind
The main problem seems to be with a few coaches who are multiple offenders over long periods of time, not with a majority of coaches doing this to all kids on an everyday basis.

And on that note, I do think the "culture" of skating does--or at least has in the past--protected people like that to a certain degree. Once a coach or other official has reached a high level of influence in the sport, they often have connections who will help them (both knowingly and unknowingly) to sweep things under the rug. Furthermore, there's a mentality that encourages young skaters to avoid rocking the boat at all costs, because many of them believe they'll make the wrong enemies by speaking up--and this is a sport where, at least to some degree, being on the good side of the right people is important. I've known of people who have kept quiet about certain things because they wanted a tryout with a certain partner, they didn't want to hurt their kid's skating career, etc.

However, I don't think any of that is reason to keep quiet about abuse and, based on talking to people, I do think the majority of people in higher up positions want to make sure situations like that are handled as effectively as possible. Because of that, I think it's hugely important that kids are assured that they can speak up without major repercussions and that in the long run, it's important that they do so.

[Dave Amorde]

Originally posted by Emanfan
I know this is not a popular viewpoint, but please try to remember as well that this coach is innocent until guilt is proven or admitted.

Please remember that this is a legal distinction, and does not excuse any of us from using our powers of deductive reasoning. He walks like a duck, he talks like a duck - HE'S A FREAKIN' DUCK! North America has too many talented coaches of excellent character for anyone to waste their time with someone of this ilk. Sexual predators can be a very patient and cunning lot. Don't risk it. Move on.

[Emanfan]

Originally posted by Dave Amorde
North America has too many talented coaches of excellent character for anyone to waste their time with someone of this ilk. Sexual predators can be a very patient and cunning lot. Don't risk it. Move on.

Which was a subsequent thought of mine in this thread, as I was made to understand that this person had been suspected of grossly inappropriate behaviour towards his students for a long period of time. Still, parents saw fit to leave their kids in his care?

Kids are in a lose/lose situation - lousy coach, lousy parents.

[Cal Girl]

Has anyone reported what is going on to the police or child protective services. If the USFSA and PSA wont do anything - go higher up!!!

The people who report him will be heros! Believe me kids today understand a lot more than we did as youngsters - and I believe their peers will rally in their support - not be outcast! Besides what is truly important is to get this person away from more kids!

Remember - people who have been abused, without help have a higher chance of becoming a predator themselves!! Stop the chain!

[what?meworry?]

round and round we go on this topic, and we never catch our tail.

geez. get to the point. webe has vowed to do something. great! but the principals are the ones who must bring the compliants.

the collective "WE" must encourage this even if we cannot, because we have no direct involvement, directly help.

no more excuses for inaction can be accepted from involved parties.

no more rationals from officialdom can be tolerated. (yup, i agree psa is a joke but usfsa, i believe will act given the true facts).

no more preditory behavior can be swept under the carpet. get the sob's, and get them now.

a highly successful freestyle, dance, and pairs coach formerly associated with a top club/rink got away with it despite depositions from numerous victims, but that can't be allowed to happen and longer. i believe usfsa knows this and is taking action just as it did with the previous, less intense issue of underage drinking (to put it mildly) at competitions.

[DancerFan]

Originally posted by what?meworry?
...a highly successful freestyle, dance, and pairs coach formerly associated with a top club/rink got away with it despite depositions from numerous victims, but that can't be allowed to happen and longer. i believe usfsa knows this and is taking action just as it did with the previous, less intense issue of underage drinking (to put it mildly) at competitions.

Oh, the USFSA definitely knows this -- ALL about it! In horrid, heinous detail. But this coach has too many 'friends in higher places' who have protected, lied, and covered for him/her on countless occasions -- why do we think anything will change?:roll: :evil: :roll: :evil: :roll: :evil:

[WeBeEducated]

8O wow, although I was warned I am still shocked by the comments I heard at our rink yesterday.
I approached another parent for the first time since I have known about the situation I described at the beginning of this thread.
This parent prides herself on being a serious Christian who homeschools her children,etc. Her response?
"It has nothing to do with me. I have girl skaters, so I'm not worried about anything. Anyway, it will mess things up for alot of people since he controls the icetime. It's just part of skating. It happens all the time! Plus, how do I know it's even true? It's heresay. And it will just cause problems for too many people. I feel sorry for his wife, and why should she have to suffer? She deserves to make a living. "

Cautiously, I said that I used to feel that way too. But that I had begun to realize that by overlooking it I was contributing to the problem.
And that I wouldnt accept it from a school teacher, why should I accept it from a coach? I told her I felt that the skaters have been taught to accept criminal behaviour within their sport! I asked her if she wants her children to learn that kind of lesson...to accept the pervasive, unethical, unprofessional behaviour?

Her final reply?
"I am staying out of it...it has nothing to do with me."

As far as I know the only support the skater is getting at our rink is from me and my son and daughter, and his family! The skater is very grateful for the phone numbers and information you all have provided online. I have given him most of the posts. I am giving him the private messages today. (I waited a little bit to make sure he wasnt overwhelmed and could think more clearly. He was at first wanting the whole thing to just go away .)
Thanks again to all of you. It has also helped me tremendously!

[Poohsk8s2]

I am so sorry to hear that you are encountering the usual "bury your head in the sand" response. This is happening over and over in this sport... where does it go now??? Can anyone answer this? The supporting/governing bodies of this sport have been completely ineffective in policing, enforcing, and punishing those guilty parties. There is absolutely no accountability. So again ask, where do you go from here? It sickens me to see how far spread yet closely entwined the network works. Again, a coach found guilty has his team enveloped"???? I find the entire issue appalling from the standpoint of those that can do something, DON"T! As far as apathy goes, that is prevalent everywhere about many things. Your "good Christian friend" WeBe is a far cry from the Christianity I know.

[singerskates]

Originally posted by WeBeEducated
A teenage skater at our rink recently confided in me, and told me that his coach has said some inappropriate things to him. The skater was offended, and very stressed out over it. I advised him to tell his mom.
He took my advice and the parent is very very upset.The skater(a male pair skater) is now considering quitting the sport because of this ordeal with the male coach. The coach actually used this young man for help with errands and yard work, etc., and took the opportunity at home to offer a "secret" relationship.
Should the coach/incidents be reported to the PSA?
The USFSA?
The rink management?
The Club officers?
The other skating parents?
The skater was only interested in getting coaching from this man, not any kind of personal relationship. In fact, the boy is heterosexual, but is so good natured the coach may have confused that with being compliant, or easy to manipulate.
Since it did not happen at the rink, should this be kept quiet?

OH, Yeah that coach should be reported. I'd skip the USFSA and go directly to the police with witnesses. As a Christian I see a need to protect the children from evil. Anyone who would want to pervert a child/skater is evil. Once this coach is in jail, I'd start sending pastors to him to preach the word to him because evil has to stop!

Please give this skater the Figure Skaters For Christ (http://www.fs4christ.com) website. It has some Christian Organizations that can help the skater and his family stop this coach from his evil doings.

B

[butterfly]

Originally posted by WeBeEducated
8O wow, although I was warned I am still shocked by the comments I heard at our rink yesterday.
I approached another parent for the first time since I have known about the situation I described at the beginning of this thread.
This parent prides herself on being a serious Christian who homeschools her children,etc. Her response?
"It has nothing to do with me. I have girl skaters, so I'm not worried about anything. Anyway, it will mess things up for alot of people since he controls the icetime. It's just part of skating. It happens all the time! Plus, how do I know it's even true? It's heresay. And it will just cause problems for too many people. I feel sorry for his wife, and why should she have to suffer? She deserves to make a living. "

Cautiously, I said that I used to feel that way too. But that I had begun to realize that by overlooking it I was contributing to the problem.
And that I wouldnt accept it from a school teacher, why should I accept it from a coach? I told her I felt that the skaters have been taught to accept criminal behaviour within their sport! I asked her if she wants her children to learn that kind of lesson...to accept the pervasive, unethical, unprofessional behaviour?

Her final reply?
"I am staying out of it...it has nothing to do with me."

As far as I know the only support the skater is getting at our rink is from me and my son and daughter, and his family! The skater is very grateful for the phone numbers and information you all have provided online. I have given him most of the posts. I am giving him the private messages today. (I waited a little bit to make sure he wasnt overwhelmed and could think more clearly. He was at first wanting the whole thing to just go away .)
Thanks again to all of you. It has also helped me tremendously! Please do not attach the label "Christian" to this person. If she doesn't come to the defense of a child she is nothing. I agree that this coach should be reported to the authorities not the impotent USFSA.
Be proud for standing up for this young man.

[PointBleu]

I agree this is such a bad act from such a coach.

My only concern for the guy is with all the 'details' that have been posted about the location, competition to be attended, etc it is too easy to find out how we are talking about (with some logic...)
In order to protect the child the moderators (or anyone who have posted location info) should edit the post and, please, remove any words that could possibly reveal that skater's identity... He doesn't need this on top of what has happened to him.

[Skatewind]

Originally posted by WeBeEducated
I approached another parent for the first time since I have known about the situation I described at the beginning of this thread.
This parent prides herself on being a serious Christian who homeschools her children,etc. Her response?
"It has nothing to do with me. I have girl skaters, so I'm not worried about anything. Anyway, it will mess things up for alot of people since he controls the icetime. It's just part of skating. It happens all the time! Plus, how do I know it's even true? It's heresay. And it will just cause problems for too many people. I feel sorry for his wife, and why should she have to suffer? She deserves to make a living. "
These comments & this attitude show exactly why some coaches are still coaching even once they have been banned by USFSA. As stated previously, one cannot blame this part on the USFSA when action is taken but there are parents who still think this way. When parents stop enabling the situation by saying "I have girls" or "My skater is a boy" & refuse to pay these coaches, it will stop.

[what?meworry?]

this thread has taken a disturbing turn. we are now vilifying those who, because they have no direct knowledge of the circumstances, won't join the mob. are we now turning on them?

if i were at your rink, i would do everything i could do to help find additional victims and convince them to participate in documenting the behaviour of the preditor coach.

but i would not blindly join in to "get him" just on someone's word.

huge difference.

it still bothers me that we-be continues to talk about this one instance (which i do not doubt) but doesn't talk about what is being done to research and contact and involve other victims.

in numbers there is strength. every hear of support groups?

go to all those other rinks this coach has left and do some serious detective work, for goodness sake, and stop trying to bully people around you to join a mob. that just doesn't work, and can actually work against your legitimate cause.

[WeBeEducated]

whoa! Join a mob??? I asked one parent her opinion.
I did not vilify her.
I was surprized that she was very indifferent.
I commented that I had felt the same lack of outrage over the years as the rumours flourished, and even when thiscurrent issue was brought to my attention, I just shrugged it off as par for the course in skating.
The other rinks are hundreds of miles away, some even a thousand, and the "victims" have moved on and away to places unknown.
But we are looking, you can beleive that!

[what?meworry?]

Originally posted by WeBeEducated
8O wow, although I was warned I am still shocked by the comments I heard at our rink yesterday.
I approached another parent for the first time since I have known about the situation I described at the beginning of this thread.
This parent prides herself on being a serious Christian who homeschools her children,etc. Her response?
"It has nothing to do with me. I have girl skaters, so I'm not worried about anything. Anyway, it will mess things up for alot of people since he controls the icetime. It's just part of skating. It happens all the time! Plus, how do I know it's even true? It's heresay. And it will just cause problems for too many people. I feel sorry for his wife, and why should she have to suffer? She deserves to make a living. "

Cautiously, I said that I used to feel that way too. But that I had begun to realize that by overlooking it I was contributing to the problem.
And that I wouldnt accept it from a school teacher, why should I accept it from a coach? I told her I felt that the skaters have been taught to accept criminal behaviour within their sport! I asked her if she wants her children to learn that kind of lesson...to accept the pervasive, unethical, unprofessional behaviour?

Her final reply?
"I am staying out of it...it has nothing to do with me."


reread this. what was said as well as the tone of outrage, then read the subsequent commentary from folks on this thread and tell me that the parent you approached has not be demeaned for her unwillingness to join you to "do something" about the coach....

exactly what did you want her to do? did you lay out a plan? did you provide her with any corroborating evidence?

has the injured party taken action to file a complaint with usfsa, talked to the rink management, contacted the psa?

if they have, there may be other concerned parents willing to help follow a trail to contact others. if it is as well known that this coach has a reputation for similar behaviour at other rinks, the trail can't be that cold.

i do hope some concrete work is being done in this direction. it will improve the chances of stoppping this guy once and for all.

[WeBeEducated]

Nope, I dont think she was being asked to join anything. She wasnt asked to do anything.
I was surprized that her reaction was cold and unfeeling toward the boy involved. At no time did she say she felt any sympathy for him. At no time did she ask about his emotional health. She indicated that true or untrue, she could care less BECAUSE her skater is getting some reduced ice costs from this coach and that will change if he is disciplined.
In the name of skating perks, she basically said "too bad and so what!"

And I think other posters could see this in her response.
Because this lady claims to have high moral principles it is surprizing that she is willing to participate in a coverup.
I dont expect her to join a mob, but I do think she could offer the boy some verbal support, she could extend some concern toward him and his family, but she told his mom exactly what she told me. She does not want aything to be done to the coach even if he is guilty she said, because that would mess up her reduced icetime costs!

I can understand why others might think her so called values and morality could be questioned

[Lark]

IMO, if the coach made a sexual proposal to someone of age, and the student turned him down, and the coach dropped the issue, then there is no problem. IF the coach pursued the issue once the student turned him down, then it is a case of sexual harassment that needs to be brought up by the student.

Now if the student isunderage, then it is a criminal offense and need to be treated that way.

I wonder if people are in an uproar becaue it is a gay issue?

[Lark]

Plus, in some states, the age of consent is 16 years old for males. If the young man is "legal" and the coach did not pursue him after the young man said "no thanks", then the coach did nothing wrong.

If the young man was hit on by an older woman, there would probably be no issue. The young man needs to grow up a little maybe? The world can be an odd place at times.

[Phuket]

Originally posted by Lark
The young man needs to grow up a little maybe?

8O :?: :!: :cry:

[leepn]

I have been listening to this post now and there is something that is just not too clear here. Is this boy or family coming forward with this? Is this a student of this coaches? If this boy or any others if there are any does not come forward then there is no case. And WeBE if you were not there and this is only heresay from someone who will not come forward then unless someone that is has actually happened to will, it is not someones business to spread it up and down a rink much less on message boards for everyone to see. These are very serious charges and can ruin reputations. It sounds like you might be just a little bitter towards this man for some reason. I am not saying he is guilty or not guilty but in this country you are innocent until you are proven guilty. I don't blame a mother for not wanting to do something that hasn't affected her children unless the people involved will come forward there is no point. You should know this from other examples of the 2 previous situations. And why do you find the need to tell us her situation with this coach? Deals are made with coaches all the time. That is between them and has nothing to do with this. If you are that concerned with this boys emotional well being then stick to the issues of the problem not all the things this coach is doing. Yes, I do hope for everyone's sake that this is only rumor and not to be true. This should never happen to anyone in any situation. It just isn't right!

[Lark]

Originally posted by Phuket
8O :?: :!: :cry:

Meaning if he is just upset becaue a man hit on him.

[WeBeEducated]

In our state the age of consent is not 17.
The boy involved told me directly, and was very upset, and unaware at the time that he had any options in terms of reporting it to the USFSA, etc.
I asked on this forum here what could/should be done.
I received specific and important information, and I received private messages of support
and I gained insight into the code of silence that has contributed to the years of coverups of quite similar and frequent episodes of misconduct by coaches.
On a personal level I have been one of this coaches biggest fans and supporters in the past few years. I had actually been told by other parents/skaters/coaches that he is a "child molester" and I chose not to believe that.
Of course, a part of me understood that one does not get that reputation easily, nor would a reputation of such magnitude run from rink to rink, some of which were hundreds of miles apart and completely different regions and sections. I armed my own skater with the knowledge he would need to stay safe, and I clearly defined for him what to look for, what to be alarmed by, and how to react.
Was I feeling vindictive ? No I wasnt the least bit involved in a personal agenda against this coach. As I said before, he had shown us much effort, generosity, and a friendly spirit.
It has indeed been reported.
To the police.
To the USFSA.
To the PSA.
I wont participate in a coverup anymore, and I wont pretend that this boy is lying, and I am doing all I can to help him. My emphasis is on helping the young man, not persecuting the coach...he did that already to himself. The coach had the responsibility to act in a legal and professional way, and to understand that if he didnt, there would be unpleasant consequences. I dont feel sorry for him.
I feel sorry for the young man who didnt know how to react to unwanted sexual advances, and is now suffering feelings of guilt, confusion, and disgust, but because of the support he is getting from a few others who understand, he is also feeling grateful and hopeful that he can move on past this.

[WeBeEducated]

Also,
I initially posted because I was seeking advice.
The advice I received provided this boy with tools he needed .

[Skatewind]

Originally posted by Lark
Plus, in some states, the age of consent is 16 years old for males. If the young man is "legal" and the coach did not pursue him after the young man said "no thanks", then the coach did nothing wrong.

If the young man was hit on by an older woman, there would probably be no issue. The young man needs to grow up a little maybe? The world can be an odd place at times.
FYI, there is no 16 year old age of consent for a USFSA grievance. A minor is a minor. And there was a coach last year who was banned for life by the USFSA who was an older man "hitting" (and more) on a young woman under 18. Remember that one?

This type of conduct against a minor is an actionable offense as well as an inappropropriate abuse of power. I wouldn't say the "young man needs to grow up a little maybe", although I do feel that way about any coach who would stupidly put himself in this situation.

[Skatewind]

Originally posted by what?meworry?
reread this. what was said as well as the tone of outrage, then read the subsequent commentary from folks on this thread and tell me that the parent you approached has not be demeaned for her unwillingness to join you to "do something" about the coach....
I reread it. I have little sympathy or respect for parents in skating who say things like "I have girl skaters, it's just part of skating, It happens all the time." It's one thing for someone to say they are staying out of it until they know more, or don't know enough to comment at the time. But when someone goes the extra mile to condone unacceptable behavior, promote it as business as usual, or look the other way for their own personal gain, then the more comments the better. Because that's exactly how people come to the opinion that it has become an acceptable part of skating when it really isn't.

That's not a witchhunt, & I have always openly directed my comments to these parents myself when I hear them say such things, not only to you on a message board.

[Poohsk8s2]

Very well said Skatewind! I never read into the remarks as being a witch-hunt, but rather outrage at the apathy. Until this issue is met with complete intolerance, our children... male or female, remain at risk. It has become too easy for most to take the "it doesn't involve me" attitude. I wish those people could reach in their hearts and find empathy for the victims and their families. The hardest thing in the world is to step forward, make/prove the allegation and then be vilified for being victimized. I have seen first hand the heartbreak it brought one family... but the young woman that fought so hard at our rink is a person that has won my deepest respect. She is slowly putting her life back together, and we will support her in any way we can. Including taking a stand NOT to patronize the rink or any of the activities therein of her "proven guilty" predator's rink and the rinks of those who support him.

[what?meworry?]

Originally posted by Poohsk8s2
...I never read into the remarks as being a witch-hunt, but rather outrage at the apathy.
Until this issue is met with complete intolerance, our children... male or female, remain at risk. It has become too easy for most to take the "it doesn't involve me" attitude. I wish those people could reach in their hearts and find empathy for the victims and their families. The hardest thing in the world is to step forward, make/prove the allegation and then be vilified for being victimized. I have seen first hand the heartbreak it brought one family... but the young woman that fought so hard at our rink is a person that has won my deepest respect. She is slowly putting her life back together, and we will support her in any way we can. Including taking a stand NOT to patronize the rink or any of the activities therein of her "proven guilty" predator's rink and the rinks of those who support him.

i totally agree that predatory coaches should be dealt with.

pooh---i know the situation you're referring to and there was no doubt of that guy's guilt in the skating community. he even had willing victims (& willing parents)! but it was the pattern of abuse that finally got him.

i totally agree that everyone should be vigilant to such situations.

but i stand firm that a "mob" mentally of let's get a group together...when the group consists of people acting on hearsay only (which in this case is one person's---we-be's---word; or did the victimized parent/skater step forward?) it can be a serious problem. people who choose not to participate because they have no real knowledge except a third party's word, have a right to expect better corroboration. is there anyone else speaking with authority about this coach's previous behaviour or allegations at other rinks?

we are all acting here as though there never, ever has been a case where FALSE accusations were made against a coach (or for that matter fellow skaters) of sexual misconduct or of other misconduct. that's why usfsa has guidelines and that's why signed affidavits are required. i've heard a few horror stories on the other side, too---about disgruntled parents/skaters trying to trash a coach.

and i'm not suggesting that such is the case here.

i choose to believe we-be, but i'm still not hearing anything about any concrete, specific actions being taken other than asking this woman to help. has a complaint been filed with usfsa? and if not why not? i would eagerly help, but only by following the coaches trail of victims to try to get the corroborating information that, based on we-be's commentaries, should exist in at lease some of those 20 rinks the coach has moved through. skating is a very small community relative to the rest of the world.

i have absolutely no clue who this coach is---i'm not that aware of all the pairs coaches and none of them i've heard of has moved that often.

[Lise]

I agree with Emanfan as well regardig the party is innocent until proven guilty.

I'm going to take the opposite view here, and state, that since this is only case of his word against the coach. How do we know this happened? What if the kid fabricted the story because he was mad at the coach? There is no proof that the coach did this, or the alledged conversation took place. There seems to be no witneses. In short, you could try to make a grievance, if you beleive this is true, but if there is no concrete evidence that this occured, it would be moot and the governing body will not do anything. With the lack of evidence, this would get dismissed in law courts.

If this is true, I don't condone the actions, however, I'm not jumping on the band-wagon until there is solid evidence.


Lise

[what?meworry?]

THERE DOESN'T NEED TO BE A WITNESS OR OTHER CORROBORATING EVIDENCE (i'm not shouting in print but this is a very important point that everyone needs to understand). just the victim along stepping forward to take a stand through official channels. a FULL investigation will follow.

but there does need to be a signed affidavit of the facts of the situation. this goes a long way toward eliminating false accusations.

if the injured parties are unwilling to pursue this, they are, as i have said before, part of the problem. same goes for this predatory coach's other past victims at all those other rinks he left after, apparently, getting accused of similar behavior.

i aplaud the skater (and her parents) who held their ground in that well-known other case. that's the kind of courage that's needed to bring an end to this type of behaviour.

[Skatewind]

Originally posted by what?meworry?
but i stand firm that a "mob" mentally of let's get a group together...when the group consists of people acting on hearsay only (which in this case is one person's (we-be's) word (or did the victimized parent/skater step forward?) it can be a serious problem. people who choose not to participate because they have no real knowledge except a third party's word, have a right to expect better corroboration. is there anyone else speaking with authority about this coach's previous behaviour or allegations at other rinks?
I did not perceive WeBe's earlier comments regarding his/her discussion with another skater's mother as attempting to incite a "mob mentality" as you put it.

If you read the previous posts it sounds like the involved parties are now following the necessary procedures to get everything documented.

Just because a parent does not feel an incident has been proven to him/her beyond a reasonable doubt does not make boorish remarks condoning acceptance & tolerance of abuse (because after all it's "normal" in skating) all right. The only way that problem is going to be resolved is if enough people let such parents know it is not considered "normal" in skating.

It is not up to the skater with the grievance to research, pursue or present other instances of abuse by the coach; only to present his/her own case as effectively as possible. Sometimes that will involve documentation of other incidents when other people are forthcoming with information & sometimes it won't. But there should not be the expectation that the skater filing the grievance HAS to do this.

[what?meworry?]

Originally posted by Skatewind
...It is not up to the skater with the grievance to research, pursue or present other instances of abuse by the coach; only to present his/her own case as effectively as possible. Sometimes that will involve documentation of other incidents & sometimes it won't.

you are correct, and i don't think anyone here suggested the skater/victim should do so themselves.

but we-be certainly can. other parents/interested parties can. you can. ask we-be for the track record and rumored other victims or whatever else we-be can give you to help you start following the rumors of previous misconduct. if this preditor coach has a history it will come out. especially if other victims know one person is standing up and filing a complaint with usfsa. they may now be willing to follow suit, knowing their silence has allowed this preditor coach to continue victimizing other skaters.

(this actually happened when craig murizi took a stand. a number of other victims did depositions. this was the first publicized case and i believe it was the turning point in usfsa's attitude. unfortunately that particular coach wasn't expelled because the "case" was so old. but the outcry that ensued has made a huge difference in today's attitude.)

i don't remember reading that the victim and his parents have actually filed a complaint with usfsa (and hopefully psa---eventually a pattern develops). i remember a lot of commentary about usfsa and psa not being likely to do anything. and in a recent post we-be commented about skaters moving away etc. relative to attempting to track down other victims who might be willing to stand with them.

[Skatewind]

PSA seems to me to be very ineffective in this area. The USFSA has made many positive changes in this area, but I don't see where the PSA has done much. If the grievance is found for the skater through USFSA, then PSA will probably take some action. Their agenda is mainly who's stealing who's student & the financial productivity of their coaches, they do not usually act independently on things like this. I would consider PSA a secondary course of action at best. One of the best ways to stop a pattern of abuse would be to follow through with a successful USFSA grievance & then pursue the coach's liability insurance & assets. Making the coach a high insurance risk or uninsurable & making it financially unproductive for him/her to teach would most likely be the next best way toward getting them out of the coaching arena.

(I should add that the more unethical the coach, the more likely they will try to drag out & delay any action of this kind for years. So if the goal is really to put a stop to child abuse, one has to be willing to see it through for the long haul.)

[what?meworry?]

Originally posted by WeBeEducated
...But we intend to do what we can to expose not just this coach, but as many of the others as possible who use their power to exploit skaters.

I know that many skaters who were rumoured to have been harassed by this coach were paid off in one form or another. They were "supported" in their competitive skating,, and feel somehow grateful, so they will be reluctant to discuss the past, but I am trying to locate them.

We will follow through with the PSA and the USFSA, the police, and more.


the above abstracted comments were posted on 5-16-03.

re 1st sentence: we-be, if you start by focusing your energies on nailing this one predator coach, you'll go a long way toward helping victims of other coaches. taking on one at a time is usually most effective.

re 2nd sentence: there you have it. you already have a good idea and these folks could be suggested to usfsa for follow up.

the unhelpful individual asside, are there others at your rink who are willing to help research this and put the victim's parents in touch? persuasion that a greater good will be served could help. any progress so far?

re 3rd sentence: has an affidavit been filed with usfsa yet? has there been any followup response from usfsa, psa or police?

[WeBeEducated]

Once again...
the USFSA has been made aware of the grievance
the Police were contacted by the therapist

Trust me, no teenage boy wants to spend his time knee deep in guilt, hurt, confusion, repeating his story to detectives and lawyers, feeling self concious at the rink, worried, and embaressed by the details.
I assure you that this is as real as it can be, and that neither the boy nor his parents were prepared for it.


He told me to say he is grateful for the information from this board. He said he appreciates it "more than anything".

He did not in any way have a grudge against this coach and decide to spread a horrific rumour. The fact is he was reluctant to tell ANYONE! He has not spoken to anyone at the rink except my family and his own parents about this experience.
The boys' mom told me she spoke to this one other parent, who does indeed define herself as very pro-child, and anti-pop culture, and seriously religious. The victims mom told me this womans reaction.It was then that I spoke to her as well(after the victims mom had disclosed the details). and I got the same reaction.
oh well
We dont need her or anyone at the rink to validate our anguish over this event.
We are moving forward.
It is very clear that the coach is worried. what does that tell you?
We are moving forward.
I cant give too many details...but everything is being done as suggested.

[what?meworry?]

Originally posted by WeBeEducated
Once again...
the USFSA has been made aware of the grievance
the Police were contacted by the therapist...


do you mean to say that "a formal grievance (with signed affidavit) has been filed with usfsa, and that "in addition to the parents filing a complaint" the police were "also" contacted by the therapist? i've been a bit confused by your phrasing in recent posts.

(sorry, but i have a real need for "precision speaking" in matters such as this. you see, "has been made aware of" is not the same thing as formally filing a grievance with a sworn affidavit, nor does the therapist alerting authorities carry the same weight as the victim/parents themselves filing a complaint.)

if that's what has been done, i applaud your efforts and the fortitude of the victim and his parents.

IS that what has been done and what you meant to say?

psa should also be put on the spot. dare them through formal filing of a grievance, to avoid action. if they continue to do so, it will catch up with them. (the cost of filing with both usfsa and psa is insignificant compared to the cost of skating and priceless considering the value of keeping this predatory coach form ever having contact with young people again.)

regarding the unwilling parent, she'll feel foolish and remorseful when the case has been proved, so that situation will take care of itself.

this situation with the coach's excuses (over how long and how many rinks?) reminds me of a an old charlie chan movie quote "alibi like dead fish---cannot stand test of time."

[dbny]

Originally posted by WeBeEducated
It is very clear that the coach is worried. what does that tell you?


Nothing, except that he is worried, which anyone would be, guilty or innocent.

I think some of the negative or doubting responses you have encountered here may have to do with the degree of indignation expressed - not that I blame you for it, but just that it can make it harder for people to focus on the facts presented.

[what?meworry?]

Originally posted by Skatewind
...Their agenda is mainly who's stealing who's student & the financial productivity of their coaches, they do not usually act independently on things like this...

and if you talk to enough coaches, you'll find that the psa doesn't even do that particularly well. it's all mostly scribbles on pages! they generally gobbledygook their way through any dispute so as to place no blame and take no decision.

their "educational" system is a joke. some of the best coaches are not members. some (not all or even a majority) of the highest ranked coaches by testing credentials, are marginal at best and damaging at worst. many of the top international coaches they claim have their rankings by appointment, (this is actually valid, by the way), but the implication then, is that others who are confered tested rankings have comparable qualifications, which is not necessarily valid.

two of the offending coaches, one usfsa banned and one whose case was too old to persue (per usfsa) actually are still listed as "international" level coaches with current psa membership.

i do wish to state that there are many highly qualilfied coaches working through the psa ranks, but just because a coach has attained senior or master status doesn't necessarily mean they are qualified either by skill or temperment to deserve that status.

needless to say, i'm no fan of the psa, but they're better than nothing. and if we demand honest performance from them, eventually they will improve.

usfsa formed an association with psa because the isu requires all member countries to have a coach training/standards system. most other countries have a truely functional system. (the problem here is that usfsa is powerless to evaluate the psa functions since psa is an independent entity, and there is no alternative). i hope that if usfsa formally and officially ever designates psa as the official coaching standards organization, that usfsa can and will exercise standards of training in the same manor as they do judges training. there also needs to be psa coach training in non-skating subjects relating to emotional well-being of skaters.

but this is still no excuse to avoid filing a formal complaint against a predatory coach. if psa is ever to fulfill its promise, we must challenge it to perform in fact what it professes on paper.

[what?meworry?]

it just occured to me to ask this.

in an early post, we-be noted that the victim is half of a pairs team.

are the parents of his partner supportive and helpful in attempting to track other victims through the other rinks?

(this actually relates because in the first noteworthy grievance that changed usfsa's attitude, when murizi stepped forward, many others, frequently the partners of abuse victims, stepped forward and made depositions.)

[Skatewind]

Maybe the boy & his partner aren't interested in sharing every single detail on a message board while the issue unfolds. It seems like it's enough to discuss the topic in more general terms at this time. Giving suggestions can be very helpful, but I simply don't see the need for all the detailed information & questioning at this time while they are going through the process. They should be sharing that information with the people who can take action on their behalf. They don't need to share it with everyone on a message board unless they choose to do so. Maurizi was an adult when he came forward, these are still underage skaters.

[what?meworry?]

Originally posted by Skatewind
Maybe the boy & his partner aren't interested in sharing every single detail on a message board while the issue unfolds. It seems like it's enough to discuss the topic in more general terms at this time. Giving suggestions can be very helpful, but I simply don't see the need for all the detailed information & questioning at this time while they are going through the process. They should be sharing that information with the people who can take action on their behalf. They don't need to share it with everyone on a message board unless they choose to do so. Maurizi was an adult when he came forward, these are still underage skaters.

good point, but i was curious when i reviewed we-be's posts (particularly the ones after all the resources for help and support were supplied), i believe the only other person reported approached was the "christian woman" who refused. i don't recall any mention the partner's parents.

i do think, that since we-be chose to break the story on this board in order to seek help and then once all available resources were forthcoming, that we-be chose to continue posting about the situation, it's consistent with the conversations on this thread to ask.

for all of us who have followed this, it would be nice to know that official, formal, written complaints have been filed with the proper authorities at usfsa, psa, etc. it would be a nice conclusion to the thread, and wouldn't harm the case at all.
in fact, it might even bring out some volunteers.

i also think all of the posters who have followed this would like to feel confident that this particular predatory coach will have to answer for this current situation (and hopefully others in the past) to usfsa, psa, etc, and not just be able to wave off "rumors" yet again.

[Skatewind]

USFSA has actually been doing a pretty good job noting problem grievances like this in SKATING magazine after the hearing. Right alongside the results & other monthly updates.

[what?meworry?]

Originally posted by Skatewind
USFSA has actually been doing a pretty good job noting problem grievances like this in SKATING magazine after the hearing. Right alongside the results & other monthly updates.

but only after the grievances have been resolved. i understand the three grievance resolutions reported recently date to 2001 and early 2002.

i really would like to have confidence that this particular situation has been officially initiated with usfsa (or, even if the decision not to pursue this is taken---although i can't imagine that).

[WeBeEducated]

whatmeworry, I cant give out too much info at this point.
as for the parent of the partner...she is uriging him to "try to just forget about it"
afterall, it might mess up her daughters' opportunites!
I heard of her reaction through the boy.
I have not approached her. I know what is most important to her.

[valuvsmk]

Originally posted by WeBeEducated
whatmeworry, I cant give out too much info at this point.
as for the parent of the partner...she is uriging him to "try to just forget about it"
afterall, it might mess up her daughters' opportunites!
I heard of her reaction through the boy.
I have not approached her. I know what is most important to her.

But, as you have made abundantly clear here (and mind you, I am not chastising you), you repeatedly tell us here about your outrage, and, far more importantly, that of the young man involved, regarding this situation.

What about the partner's mother could be so inhibiting as to prevent you from "approaching", as you put it, the partner's mother and expressing to her all the arguments you have put forth here? Certainly such an incident, and the young man's reaction to it, could endanger the partnership's existence. Would that not concern the partner's mother to such a degree as to be worried about her daughter's future skating plans with the young man?

[sk8rT]

This is nothing new--it has happened before many times on all different levels of severity---I would report and sue--some coaches have even served jail time

[WeBeEducated]

update:
An indictment on 3 felony charges.
His picture on the News yesterday with the story, at 6 and at 11 pm.
Suspended from the Club until the investigation is over.
Not allowed around children until investigation is over.
USFSA -grievance was filed.
Cameras and reporters at the rink.

[DancerFan]

Originally posted by WeBeEducated
update:
An indictment on 3 felony charges.
His picture on the News yesterday with the story, at 6 and at 11 pm.
Suspended from the Club until the investigation is over.
Not allowed around children until investigation is over.
USFSA -grievance was filed.
Cameras and reporters at the rink.

One Word:
FAB-U-LOUS!!

Perhaps finally justice will reign!!!!!!!

[blades]

8-)

now that it's on the news and in the paper...might i ask who this person is?

[DancerFan]

Originally posted by blades
8-)

now that it's on the news and in the paper...might i ask who this person is?

The second-most egregious and until now unpunished sexual predator the sport has ever known.

[Patchris]

Is what's the same history? Excuse my bad English; i'm french...


http://wcpo.com/news/2003/local/06/20/coach.html

http://www.cincypost.com/2003/06/21/lowery062103.html:(

[cygnus]

Well since it has been published in the news-

http://wcpo.com/news/2003/local/06/20/coach.html

[Patchris]

:oops:

Excuse me Cygnus we posted in same time I believe

[WeBeEducated]

David Lowery
Husband of Rita Lowery, one of Scott Hamilton's first coaches in Bowling Green ,Ohio
Father of Kristin Lowery, who competed in icedance with Chip Rossbach, and now coaches in the DC/Delaware area.
Foster parent to James Disbrow, (deceased) who competed in Pairs and Singles, and went on to become President of the USFSA.

Lowery was a past president of the PSA.

Assisted in the coaching of Junior National Dance Champions, Jennifer and Jeff Benz, Pairs teams of Jill Watson and Peter Oppegard, Novice Pair champs Brandi Seabol and Cheynne Coppage, Tiffany Pfikas and Josiah Modes, Michael Edgren, John Zimmerman, Bert Cording, Brandon Larcom, and many many others over the years.
Rinks have included Detroit, Buffalo, Tampa, Bowling Green, Troy,Ohio, Cincinnati in the 80's, Atlanta, Ft.Lauderdale, Cincinnati again, and other North american locations.

[Poohsk8s2]

I can only say that I hope this is the first step of healing for his many victims. My prayers once again are sent to your friend and his family We-B!

[what?meworry?]

YES!

congratulations to the young man and his family for having the guts to go after this creep.

three cheers for webe!

i sincerely hope this will be broadcast far and wide and any and all other predator coaches quake in fear.

i also hope this will encourage other victims to step forward in this and other cases past or future.

and lets hope this will prevent potential abuse situations from ever happening.

good work.

p.s. maybe the victims of the "first most egregious..." will now take a second shot at him---at least through reopening the usfsa grievance that was "too old" to do anything about. (although dancerfan and i may be refereing to different sexual predators.)

[dbny]

Originally posted by what?meworry?
i also hope this will encourage other victims to step forward in this and other cases past or future.....p.s. maybe the victims of the "first most egregious..." will now take a second shot at him---at least through reopening the usfsa grievance that was "too old" to do anything about. (although dancerfan and i may be refereing to different sexual predators.)

Under the law, this man is innocent until proven guilty. As I am not involved personally in this case and am not sitting on a jury and do not have access to evidence, I cannot share the judgement of many of you on this thread. We really do not know if there were any other victims, or even one at this point. I do agree that the accused should be suspended from coaching activities, but keep in mind that more than one career has been ruined by false claims of varying kinds. I just really do not like the assumption that this man is guilty because someone has said so.

[what?meworry?]

db, i of course grant you that. i too, am concerned about false accusations leveled against coaches to "get even for...." (fill in the blank). i darn close said i thought this situation was beginning to smell fishy, but in this current situation, there was clearly enough evidence for a grand jury to indict.

regarding the other situation i referenced, i do know one of the witnesses who gave a deposition in the matter, and the details of the content of the deposition, which is given under oath.
i didn't read it, but the individual talked about it.

i do wonder now, after usfsa has come so far since then, if it would have a different outcome now.

[Phuket]

Originally posted by what?meworry?

i do wonder now, after usfsa has come so far since then, if it would have a different outcome now.

I don't understand what you mean by this. Could you please clarify?

[what?meworry?]

there were many individuals (not all who had been affected by that coaches behaviour, but many) who stated under oath ---sworn affidavit---what they knew and experienced first hand about the situation. i mean no more or less than what i said. one of the people who made a deposition told me about the deposition and the situation.

this was regarding the usfsa grievance that was "dismissed" because the situation was "too old."

since then, usfsa had banned two coaches. now this current predator is under indictment. usfsa will, no doubt, investigate and take action. if that first "case" were reviewed now, with the abuse policy, i think the outcome would have been different for that first coach brought to task.

[Vskatefan]

Originally posted by Lark


If the young man was hit on by an older woman, there would probably be no issue. The young man needs to grow up a little maybe? The world can be an odd place at times.

Your ignorance of this issue is showing. For more knowledge, a couple of URLS

http://www.malesurvivor.org/myths.htm
http://www.malesurvivor.org/10%20Facts.htm

[Vskatefan]

Originally posted by Lark


Now if the student isunderage, then it is a criminal offense and need to be treated that way.

I wonder if people are in an uproar becaue it is a gay issue?

It is NOT a GAY issue! It is a sexual abuse issue.

[Vskatefan]

Originally posted by WeBeEducated

as for the parent of the partner...she is uriging him to "try to just forget about it"
afterall, it might mess up her daughters' opportunites!


THis is a big part of the problem. THe parents(generally speaking) often think success in their child's career is more important than thier child's safety! That just galls me.

[what?meworry?]

Originally posted by Vskatefan
It is NOT a GAY issue! It is a sexual abuse issue.

correct. and it's good that you brought up that old post for clarification.
most skaters are heterosexual. some are gay. no one should care.

gay does not equal sexual abuse. sexual abuse occurs between male/female, female/male, male/male, female/female.

sexual abuse is unwanted sexual imposition. it is most egregious when the unwanted advances come from an individual in a position of power and authority over an individual, especially a young person. (see the usfsa abuse policy).

the two previous cases of banned coaches involved male coaches and female victims. this is the first male/male abuse case addressed honestly in the skating community. the imposition of unwanted sexual attention from a male coach upon a male student does NOT even begin to imply that the student is gay. the coach is a pedophile---the student a vulnerable kid. in fact, most male/boy sexual abuse involves heterosexual youth. check out the catholic church mess.

the first publicly addressed situation involved a married male coach who, it was alleged, sexually abused male students and emotionally abused (so what's new) female students. the former student who brought a grievance to usfsa was heterosexual, married with children and was very brave to take a stand. another i know of was also heterosexual, later married, etc.

it is definately NOT a gay issue.

[blades]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lark


"If the young man was hit on by an older woman, there would probably be no issue. The young man needs to grow up a little maybe? The world can be an odd place at times."[QUOTE]

obviously, you've never heard of the laterno case here in the seattle area where a schoolteacher became pregos by one of her students...she got jail time for that one...(and managed to get pregnant by him again...long story...longer sentence thereafter too...but that's another story...)

sexual abuse is simply that and should not be tolerated at any time....

forget anything about any gay issue...it's not the point...

(good lord does this story have "legs"!!!)

[Phuket]

Originally posted by blades
[QUOTE]
(good lord does this story have "legs"!!!)

What does that mean?

[Susan]

Sexual Abuse is just as the title implies the abuse of a person sexually.

Unfortunatley it happens in all walks of life and should not be tolerated or dimissed.

I wish the young man all the luck in the world in bringing his case to justice ! He has taken the biggest step from being a victim to becoming a survivor!

[Tigger]

Originally posted by Phuket
What does that mean?

What blades meant was this story has so many different angles and points that talking about it can go on forever and ever and ever. Any kind of sexual abuse story has that kind of aura about it because of so many levels involved to it. At least that's the definition I was given to that term many moons ago.

[blades]

8-)

you got it tigger!!!

old newshound expression...a story that just keeps on going...just look...it's up to seven pages already!!

[Phuket]

and 10,725+ views! Ok, I understand what you meant blades.

[mack]

On the discussion bd at USFSA-- No response or discussion to someone who posted the news item? I find that interesting with all the views on this bd?

[Gaela]

This has been a highly disturbing thread, in two ways.

1) The amount of sexual abuse that occurs and is never reported, or when reported, has no evidence, none tangible, or at the time when it is reported. Last statistic I heard is that a woman is raped every 17 minutes in Canada, usually by someone she knows.

2) The ability of a group of people to villainize another, who might be innocent. The witchhunts come to mind. I am not saying this particular coach is innocent AT ALL but a situation could arise in which in individual or individuals wanted to villainze a coach. And rumor could stand as evidence.

How did the priests and teachers at residential schools in Canada ever get caught and indicted? Many of the victims never came forward until years later. . .how did they convince the legal system of the authenticity of their claim? Did they have witnesses?

I have believed all of these stories of abuse, but not followed the details. There are way too many sexual abusers out there.

As the parent of a child in a vulnerable situation like FS what do you do? Arm you child with a tape recorder? For sure, in some cases, seeing a doctor IMMEDIATELY afterwards would provide evidence. . .

This thread really made me hate the human race.

[WeBeEducated]

Communication with your skater is the best defense.
No topics off limits.
Lots of time spent in the early years developing trust and confidence.
Clearly defined, loving, high standards between family members.
These things help your child make the important decision to NOT agree to become a victim of any kind, anyplace, not just in the skating world.

As for "innocent until proven guilty" I assure you that there is NO PLEASURE in pursuing this issue, but there is satisfaction. If you had seen and heard this young man over the past few months, you would understand how insulting is the suggestion that he created a lie against an innocent 72 year old man! Probably nobody at our rink knows this coach better than I do,and I am sad to say that the evidence was more than enough to convince me right away. I actually wish very much that it wasnt true. Nobody involved was looking for a reason to persecute this man. He created his own crisis.

[Gaela]

As for "innocent until proven guilty" I assure you that there is NO PLEASURE in pursuing this issue, but there is satisfaction. If you had seen and heard this young man over the past few months, you would understand how insulting is the suggestion that he created a lie against an innocent 72 year old man!

I, for one, wasn't suggesting that he created a lie. People are just pointing out that in the eyes of the law, a person has to be considered innocent until proven guilty.

I am sad to say that the evidence was more than enough to convince me right away. I actually wish very much that it wasnt true. Nobody involved was looking for a reason to persecute this man. He created his own crisis.

For the sake of this boy, I do hope the evidence constitutes proof--I just don't know what that is, while I do know that many women are raped unfortunately do not take the matter to court, either because they don't have 'proof', or because they can't face the ordeal.

[jazzpants]

If the guy is proven guilty in a court of law... I hope the B*****D roast in HELL!!!! MWHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! :evil:

[chatterbox]

Having read most of the messages on this thread, I am amazed at how quickly people have been willing, without any evidence other than comments made by WeBeEducated to "jump on the band wagon" and assume guilt. Some people also seem happy to make vague accusations based on the past (again no evidence that we know of!) from the comfort of their PC's.

Also why has this man's family been involved. I notice that the families details have also been added to this thread, for what reason? Seems very vindictive and small minded to me. I'm sure his family don't appreciate this at all!

[jazzpants]

Originally posted by Phuket
and 10,725+ views! Ok, I understand what you meant blades.

I think this thread is a catepillar. :P :lol:

[Skatewind]

Originally posted by chatterbox
(again no evidence that we know of!)
Perhaps no evidence that you may know of from reading this thread. It does not need to be proven to you personally if steps are being taken with the proper authorities. A lot of the discussion here has been about the issue in general, not only about this individual.

However if you review the news materials, it is noted that he was indicted by a county grand jury. The matter was also reviewed by the executive board of the skating club involved. So obviously the necessary details were heard by others (not only WeBeEducated) & they believed there was sufficient evidence or testimony to pursue the charges. Otherwise, it would have been dropped by the grand jury.

For posters wondering about the "age of consent" issue, see Ohio code 2907.03 Sexual Battery, & note section 9) which states: "The other person is a minor & the offender is the other person's athletic or other type of coach, is the other person's instructor, is the leader of a scouting troop of which the other person is a member, or is a person with temporary or occasional disciplinary control over the other person."

It is a third degree felony. See the code for more background.

My sympathies to his children. This is a horrible ordeal for them & they've done nothing wrong. I agree they should be left out of it & their skating achievements have nothing to do with this. :(

[Alexeiskate]

Originally posted by chatterbox
Also why has this man's family been involved. I notice that the families details have also been added to this thread, for what reason? Seems very vindictive and small minded to me. I'm sure his family don't appreciate this at all!

I agree. It was totally in bad taste to say the least to post the names of people that have any type of connections with the accused. They didn't ask to be in this thread and be associated with this situation.

[speedy]

I find the number of incidents and "rumored" incidents like this in skating to be appalling. I'm sure there are other sports in which these kinds of things occur, but it seems to be disturbingly common in figure skating. There have been several relatively high-profile reported incidents over the last few years...the Maurizi case, the Simsbury CT scandal, the Dallas case, other cases across the country, now this...and these are obviously just the tips of the iceberg. This is a cancer on the sport and needs to be dealt with seriously and forcefully. I know I would think twice, or 3 times, before allowing my child to participate in this sport after reading about all these incidents...much less in a rink with a suspected predator. I'm sure parents are clueless about a lot of the history of the coaches in their rink. Obviously that's partly the fault of the parents for not doing some background checks of their own on why a coach would change cities that frequently...this guy changed jobs more times than Saturday Night Live changes casts! I know skating is a bit of a nomadic sport but that's ridiculous. And when parents can't find information on a coach's past and why he HAS moved so much, why can't they? Shouldn't the USFSA and the local clubs have more protective systems in place to prevent not only these kinds of incidents, but to at least protect themselves from lawsuits? You would think as self-serving as these organizations can be they would take into consideration that if the floodgates open as they did with the Catholic Church, heads are gonna roll somewhere. I'm sure the USFSA thinks the last thing they need now is a full-blown child molestation scandal. Unfortunately it sounds like due to past cover-ups, non-punishments and ignorance that's exactly what they might get some day, especially if there are so many cases that have occurred, and are occurring, that are never reported, but just might be now that people see things can change.

[??!!?]

My sympathies to his family too. This ordeal is embarrassing and unfortunate.

But, just by mentioning his family and skaters he taught, this is not implicating that they are involved in this matter, nor is it insinuating that they are current supporters. It gives some background as to who this person is. Stating names demonstrates that David is well established and very connected within the skating community.

I hope justice prevails. It's sad someone would think that it is acceptable to take advantage of and harm vulnerable and developing young adults.

??!!?

[Skatewind]

Originally posted by speedy
Shouldn't the USFSA and the local clubs have more protective systems in place to prevent not only these kinds of incidents, but to at least protect themselves from lawsuits? You would think as self-serving as these organizations can be they would take into consideration that if the floodgates open as they did with the Catholic Church, heads are gonna roll somewhere. I'm sure the USFSA thinks the last thing they need now is a full-blown child molestation scandal. Unfortunately it sounds like due to past cover-ups, non-punishments and ignorance that's exactly what they might get some day, especially if there are so many cases that have occurred, and are occurring, that are never reported, but just might be now that people see things can change.
The sky is not falling & this is not happening in epic proportions compared to the overall number of skaters in USFSA programs. How do you know that clubs are covering it up in a self serving way if you are not working with them? This coach's club suspended him once the charges were initiated.

FYI, club personnel are UNPAID, they have to listen to insulting complaints like yours on their own time. None that I have ever met would fail to act on a complaint such as this once it's been properly documented. In this case it was reported, but what would you like club people to do when the aggrieved victims do not come forward to REPORT the incidents? If you don't think taking action against a coach like this one when there's insufficient documentation will result in serious legal problems for any club, then maybe further research is in order before spouting off about how ineffective everyone is. This is not happening at clubs anymore than in other sports, despite the National Enquirer-like rantings.

Read today's news about the boy scout problems. It's not limited to skating & I'm pretty sure that are a lot more scouts than there are skaters in the U.S.

[??!!?]

I would say this sort of situation is not happening frequently, but it's not uncommon. I personally know of a questionable relationship from the past at a rink involving a minor.

[Ellyn]

I just did a web search for the words "sexual," "abuse," and "coach."

Among the first 30 hits were references to cases involving soccer, baseball, gymnastics, and the Catholic Church. Adding the word "accused," I also got hits referring to basketball and public schools.

Nothing about figure skating in the first listings.

Today there was a link on the Netscape home page to a story about police officers who had had sex with teenagers (boys and girls) working with the police departments through a Boy Scouts program.

I don't know if the number of cases in figure skating is higher *proportionally* than that in other activities, even if the absolute number is lower because the number of people who participate at all is lower to begin with. That may in fact be true.

It's also possible that the number of cases per offending coach is higher in skating because historically the skating establishment hasn't had a culture or policy of investigating and dealing harshly with accused offenders, allowing the relatively few coaches so inclined to continue this behavior with multiple students.

But it's also possible that it seems as though there are more cases in skating to us because we follow the sport so closely, and someone who followed other sports with equal attention would have a very different perception of where such abuse is most common.

[Alexeiskate]

Originally posted by ??!!?

But, just by mentioning his family and skaters he taught, this is not implicating that they are involved in this matter, nor is it insinuating that they are current supporters. It gives some background as to who this person is. Stating names demonstrates that David is well established and very connected within the skating community.
??!!?

What difference does it make if the accused is well connected within the skating community or not? The charges against him is horrendous regardless of what his professional status is. No additional names other then the public name of the accused need to be known.

By listing the daughter name and the area where she coaches, WeBeEducated has brought additional unwanted publicity and attention to the daughter that could place more burden on her personally and professionally. By listing the accused's former pupils, it could lead people to speculate which of the student listed was the victim. I'm sure none of the skaters listed wants that type of attention.

[Skatewind]

His establishment in the skating community can be made just fine by noting his own record, not that of his children, who they are or where they teach, or information about grandchildren. It's petty & mean spirited to bring them into it, they are being victimized by it too. They have nothing to do with the actions by this individual.

[speedy]

None that I have ever met would fail to act on a complaint such as this once it's been properly documented. In this case it was reported, but what would you like club people to do when the aggrieved victims do not come forward to REPORT the incidents?

Did I say anything about the clubs not taking action once it's been reported (although it's been stated in this thread that people are totally unsatisfied with the USFSA's and PSA's non-action in these matters in the past)? My point is, this guy has obviously been suspected of similar deeds in the past, and has had to roam the country to find a new place to start over...and over, and over. I don't care if the club people are paid or unpaid, what does that have to do with protecting their members from a freak like this? Are they that clueless that they had no idea about this guy's past or did they not want to know why he had changed locations that often? Is there nobody on the staff that phones up his past locations to talk to his former students, their parents or the clubs he worked with? For Pete's sake, people get background checks and drug tests done these days for minimum wage jobs, you would think there would at least be some kind of system in place to check up on a guy that is going to be spending his whole day working with underage kids. Were there not posts earlier in this thread regarding how the club in Dallas basically tried to cover up the mess there? Yes, unfortunately this kind of thing does happen in every walk of life...even with police officers, as was in the news yesterday. And I'm sure if you do a Google search, figure skating probably won't pop up at the top of the list. But figure skating is not exactly a mainstream sport, it's a sport for mostly upper-middle class youth from big cities that requires more training and more money than your average sport. If you compare the number of kids that participate in baseball, soccer or football to figure skating it's not even close. No, I don't think this abuse has reached epic proportions in the sport...but considering what we've all seen and heard over the years, it is there, and is, as someone said before, not uncommon. Hiding your head in the sand and pretending it's not all that bad is like the lady that said "It doesn't affect me, I don't want anything to do with it." :roll: Unfortunately, that attitude is all too prevalent in our society today. Nobody wants to get involved, everybody wants to stay in their snug little world and pretend things really aren't all that bad. Meanwhile kids are scared to report this kind of abuse due in part to that kind of attitude, as well as a myriad of other reasons. Think about the cases I mentioned before, and how many coaches that involved...one of them as high-profile as you can get, another of them the director of an international training rink. How many other sports can you think of in which the ratio of coaches, much less high-level coaches, accused of abuse are as high as it appears in skating? I find it absurd that anyone would not recognize there is a major problem in this sport. Sheesh, I know from talking to past and former skaters myself that sexual harassment, abuse and sexual relationships with students is not rare at all. That's not even the issue...the issue is how do you stop it and prevent it, and is it even possible to do so. Personally I don't think enough steps are being taken now...but that's just my "insulting complaint."

[Trillian]

Originally posted by Alexeiskate
What difference does it make if the accused is well connected within the skating community or not?

It makes a HUGE difference. Similar cases have been swept under the rug in the past because the accused have been able to call on their many connections in the skating world. There are people out there who have been disciplined for similar things, but are still coaching because they have influential friends who are willing to ignore the problems. If the criminal charges don't stick, there's no question in my mind that this guy will be able to continue coaching (even if the USFSA finds sufficient evidence to ban him)--that's just the way it works. And if he is indeed guilty, it's really too bad.

[Alexeiskate]

I see your point Trillian, but this thread is about a coach's possible criminal behaviours and not about how he was able to beat this criminal accusation against him. I don't see how listing the name of his daughter, her ex-parnter, the area where she teaches and the names of some his past students show that he has connections that might help him beat this rap and continue coaching. Like Skatewind said, "His establishment in the skating community can be made just fine by noting his own record, not that of his children, who they are or where they teach, or information about grandchildren." When the news talk about an alledged sex-offenders and post his picture on the tube, they never say who his family is, and WeBeEducated should have followed the same example.

[Skatewind]

The "insulting complaints" I was referring to previously are the ones where people rant, rave, misinform, & criticize or generally attack groups rather than recognizing actual numbers, cases & causes; & the ones from the constant complainers who exaggerate to get attention focused on an issue but then do nothing to help develop solutions to the problem or work with the people who can get things resolved.

Some other things being overlooked in all this:
- Abusive coaches usually don't have criminal records, which means they will pass criminal background checks by rinks & clubs. The way they get a criminal record in all this is for an abused skater to file & follow through on a successful complaint, not from clubs or parents passing along gossip about someone who doesn't want to be involved or remarks they will only tell "off the record".
- Abusive coaches usually have good references & resumes & current liability insurance
- Banned USFSA coaches are a matter of record. The information is available to rink personnel & parents. It's frequently in the news. If parents & rinks still employ these coaches, direct your dissatisfaction to the people who are employing them.
-A club at any given rink may control only a small amount of ice & activity time. Very few clubs own their own rinks or retain coaches on their payroll or under their direct employment. Most give coaching privileges for club ice time. It is important to determine the activity, program, locations, etc where the abuse occurs first before making vast generalizations about who is or is not doing anything about it. This stuff is usually not happening on the weekly club session.
- People need to be sensitive to the needs of skaters who have been abused & not weigh them down with demanding expectations. There are always going to be kids & parents who don't want to come forward for personal reasons. The strong ones who can face the backlash will be the ones who will change the system in the long run, but that doesn't mean the others are any less significant or should be perceived in a negative manner because of their decision not to come forward.

An example has been given of a club in TX causing problems. An example has been given of Bob Young who is still teaching, but he has been banned from the USFSA (as has the TX coach) & can no longer coach USFSA activities. There are several examples of abuse that have been cited, even one is more than what should be tolerated. But how does this translate into a "full blown child molestation scandal" once the "floodgates open" for an organization with more than 600 clubs & 165,000 members?

USFSA now has harassment rules. They recognize the problems & give members the opportunity to take formal steps to resolve them, not to cover up or squelch such matters. Although I agree there was never this degree of openness before, steps are being taken now & it's why coaches are being banned from USFSA.

[Trillian]

Originally posted by Skatewind
An example has been given of Bob Young who is still teaching, but he has been banned from the USFSA (as has the TX coach) & can no longer coach USFSA activities.

Oh yes he can--from the stands. Anyone who was paying attention to the junior pairs at nationals could confirm that for you. He was very much present and working at nationals this year. Furthermore, he's still listed on the USFSA site as the primary coach for his pairs team, and they're getting envelope funding. I don't have a problem with the team getting funding, and obviously they can work with any coaches they want, but it seems inappropriate to me that the USFSA site lists a banned coach for national team members. I would prefer an inaccurate bio to one that endorses someone the organization has seen fit to ban for life.

[??!!?]

Originally posted by Alexeiskate
this thread is about a coach's possible criminal behaviours and not about how he was able to beat this criminal accusation against him. I don't see how listing the name of his daughter, her ex-parnter, the area where she teaches and the names of some his past students show that he has connections that might help him beat this rap and continue coaching.

I agree that there is no need to mention the family members. But, if the public and others are made aware of the situation, and of his status within the skating community, it will be harder to just 'sweep under the rug'.

[Skatewind]

Originally posted by Trillian
He was very much present and working at nationals this year.
If you were there & saw this, did you or anyone report it? He can't coach at a USFSA event. I know people who would have reported it had they seen it. His listing on the USFSA site considering the circumstances is inappropriate & should be removed:
http://www.usfsa.org/team/pairs/appeharr.htm

[Trillian]

Originally posted by Skatewind
If you were there & saw this, did you or anyone report it?

There's nothing to be reported. He bought tickets and sat in the stands, and there's not a d*mn thing the USFSA can do about that under their current rules. I was just pointing out that while the USFSA can in theory ban someone from coaching at a USFSA event, they can't ban it in practice as long as they continue to sell tickets. (And no, I wasn't there, but a few different people told me about it.)

[celtic]

Trillian is correct. I heard from several sources that the banned coach from CT was actually in the stands and his pairs team was communicating with him from the ice. Something is very wrong here: Why would two skaters on the national team participate in this kind of behavior, and where are their parents??? To use a coach who has been banned for life and for the USFSA to list him on the team's biography is tantamount to endorsing him.

And for the TX coach: members of the current board of that club are still friendly with him and have used his coaching within the past two years, although not at an event. They were certainly trying to support him, even after the ban was issued. It was more like communicating via telephone or outside the rink. (That club actively recruited him and gave him incentives to relocate, didn't check into his background, then were reluctant to take any action against him, even after the facts were public knowledge.)

[WeBeEducated]

A partial bio is unfair? not needed?
I dont think so.
Even the TV News included much more information than a simple name to identify him They showed skating footage, mentioned names of skaters, quoted another local skater. and showed the prosecutor speaking of the victim as a "wonderful young man".

Understanding the depth of this man's connections is critical to understanding how he could still be the captain of another coverup.
It would be very naive to think that having many friends in high places
wont play a role in the coach's defense.
Many will participate in the coverup, of this I am sure.
He is counting on those connections.
And for any coach that thinks his family wont be dragged through the mud if he chooses to engage in any kind of criminal activity, better think again.

If you want to cry for someone, cry for the victim.
An email today informed me that emtionally he is having a very difficult time. His family is keeping a very close watch on him!
If you would like to send a message specifically for him, please send it to my private message box. I will copy it and send it to him. This is a very serious matter, and I am concerned right now about the victim. thank you

[Skatewind]

Originally posted by WeBeEducated
And for any coach that thinks his family wont be dragged through the mud if he chooses to engage in any kind of criminal activity, better think again.

If you want to cry for someone, cry for the victim.
I know who the boy is & I would never think of posting his name on a public message board unless he was doing it himself & wanted it known. Too bad the same can't be said about people who want to use this man's children & underage grandchildren who don't even live in the same state to set an example for his actions. Misdirecting your anger toward them will not resolve the problem.

[WeBeEducated]

Underage grandchildren????? what are you talking about????????????????
where are any underage grandchildren mentioned?named?

[Alexeiskate]

Originally posted by WeBeEducated
And for any coach that thinks his family wont be dragged through the mud if he chooses to engage in any kind of criminal activity, better think again.


So is that the reason why you took the time to spell out the accused daughter's name and point out the general area where she coaches? Seems to me like there are more than one form of abuse being discussed and executed in this thread.

[Phuket]

Originally posted by ??!!?
I agree that there is no need to mention the family members. But, if the public and others are made aware of the situation, and of his status within the skating community, it will be harder to just 'sweep under the rug'.

I'm not sure if I agree that WeBeEducated was inappropriate to mention David Lowery's family members, etc.

As I've viewed this thread over the past week or so there have been a number of posters who have expressed disbelief that parents would hire someone who has moved around alot. Why would they hire someone who has vague rumors swirling about them with regards to past (sexual?) misconduct? *Where were the parents?* it's been said. *Why didn't the..you fill in the blank..(USFSA, PSA, rink, local club) do something about this person?

I get the feeling that people expect a sexual preditor to be this creepy individual everyone should be able to instantly identify. That is hardly ever the case in these types of situations. Mr. Lowery is a highly respected member of the skating community, past president of the PSA, high level coach with a history of many successful skaters. Why wouldn't you want him to coach your son? Innocent until proven guilty, right? He's a husband, a father and a grandfather. Surely nothing could be wrong here?

Skating is a very small world, however that doesn't mean that everyone knows everyone else. Sometimes in order to establish *who* someone is you need to make reference to others. Unfortunately, David's family and associates will be named so that people who don't know who David is can say *oh yes, I know so and so. Oh yes, I remember who he is now* Otherwise the connection to who David Lowery is might not be made, and parents not realizing the situation would continue to have him work with their children.

Is that right? Is it fair to the friends, associates and family members? Of course not. Unfortunately it's part of the fallout.

[WeBeEducated]

Anyone who knows Lowery also knows his adult daughter, and who she skated with, and where she currently coaches. It is unfortuante for her and I am sure she is not happy about the latest accusation against her father.
Once it becomes public in the news media any criminal suspect will be refered to by their own individual identity, but also by their connections and family relationships IF those connections might be meaningful in some way to the investigation, or even interesting in some way. The current charges against the "Max Factor" heir is a case in point. Why drag the grandfathers name into it? Because it does indeed help define the accused.
In this case, posters were wondering if filing grievances with the PSA and USFSA would be productive. Why? because IF the coach was well known/highly regarded/formerly in leadership positions with the PSA or USFSA , or with family members in those positions, it might explain his sense of being "beyond the law".
The bio also provides those unfamiliar with this individual a greater understanding of his employment history/moving from rink to rink, and his skating connections.
It is relevant information.

[chatterbox]

Alexeiskate I totally agree.

There appears to be a bit more behind WeBeEducated's grievence than the welfare of the minor.

It is interesting that WeBeEducated came to an open forum to ask advice on this matter initially (not knowing what they should do), instead of reporting the matter directly to the police and the rink. Now she seems determined to drag this man's family into the affair.

Can any of us imagine how the family must feel about this situation?

It is bad enough for the family having to deal with this (whether the allegations are true/not true, proven/not proven) without their names being plastered over the internet!

Sorry I totally disagree with WeBeEducated's views. The family will get enough "fallout" from this. Also, this man is not on trial in this forum, as much as WeBeEducated would like him to be.

Lets all hope this issue is properly investigated (and seen to be investigated). However this is getting a little tiring listening to WeBeEducated's bile towards this man and his family. It is time now to watch what happens with this case and deal with the facts and the results that come from it.

[jlong171]

Originally posted by WeBeEducated
Anyone who knows Lowery also knows his adult daughter, and who she skated with, and where she currently coaches. It is unfortuante for her and I am sure she is not happy about the latest accusation against her father.


I agree with the last post - the family should NOT be named and shamed - what a nasty thing to do!

[what?meworry?]

Originally posted by Skatewind
If you were there & saw this, did you or anyone report it? He can't coach at a USFSA event. I know people who would have reported it had they seen it. His listing on the USFSA site considering the circumstances is inappropriate & should be removed:
http://www.usfsa.org/team/pairs/appeharr.htm

trillian is correct. usfsa can't ban bob young from buying a ticket.

however, permitting bob young to be listed as the coach of a prominent pairs team in the official usfsa elite athlete bio is outrageous.

it darn close to endorses the guy! it also makes a sham out of all those big ideals in the usfsa abuse policy, now doesn't it.

what is the usfsa management thinking???

so dancerfan, you seem to have strong opinions about this guy and how the kid who blew the whistle on him was treated. would you volunteer to point out to usfsa the obvious mixed message they are sending by allowing this guy to be listed on their website since it implies he's ok with the usfsa? i'd love to hear their reaction.

by the way, i don't have any details of the specific situation(s) that resulted in his being banned from usfsa for life, just the "other" one.

[Mayra]

Originally posted by jlong171
I agree with the last post - the family should NOT be named and shamed - what a nasty thing to do!

People who are hurt and angry do nasty things sometimes. Not saying its right, but it happens.

[fairytailz]

[QUOTE] Understanding the depth of this man's connections is critical to understanding how he could still be the captain of another coverup.
It would be very naive to think that having many friends in high places
wont play a role in the coach's defense.
/QUOTE]

This is a criminal matter - Lowery's friends in high places will not be able to help him in a court of law. Jurors are carefully selected and screened before they sit on the panel. Anyone in the jury pool with bias or prior knowledge of the victim or accused will be weeded out. To think a jury will be swayed by his connections or standing in the skating world is foolish.

However, this is not the case with the USFSA grievance. There is an inherent flaw in the USFSA and PSA grievance process in that those deciding the outcome can not be impartial or unbiased. In high profile cases such as this, they undoubtedly know the coach and may even know the victim. They would never in a million years be allowed to sit on the jury in a court of law. Until the system is fixed and friendships and rivalries are taken out of the picture, the potential for guilty coaches to be found innocent and innocent coaches to be banned is too great.

[sk8er1964]

Maybe the names of the family should not have been mentioned - but I can honestly say that I could not tell you one name, except for Lowry and a few of his well known students, that was mentioned by WeBe without looking back for that particular post. I'm sure I'm not alone. I think the reactions to posting the names of the family/skaters might be blown a bit out of proportion - this is information anyone can find out anyway, if they care to look for it. It's not a secret. Also, if I remember correctly, while the post did seem a bit angry to me it did not imply that any of those peope, except Lowry, were involved in any potential criminal conduct.

Why jump all over WeBe? Somebody even seemed to imply that WeBe has some sort of hidden agenda here. Is it because WeBe was involved in exposing an alleged abusive situation where a *gasp* well known coach has been implicated? Well, good for WeBe, I say - we need parents that are willing to stand up against any abuser, whether the abuser be a teacher, cop, skating coach or anyone else in the position to harm a kid.

As for WeBe bringing this up on an internet forum, remember the WeBe was careful not to divulge details until the matter became public. Heck, people on the internet seem to think it is ok to discuss what Michelle Kwan had for breakfast and who she is dating, but a serious discussion of sexual abuse in our sport is supposed to be somehow taboo?

The other thing that has been bothering me about the last dozen or so posts (and I've followed this thread from the start) is that some people seem to have a lot of sympathy for Lowry's family/associates, and none for the young man who was brave enough to take a stand - even though it could destroy his feeling of self worth, his skating career and possibly his life. I, for one, salute this young man for his courage and convictions. He's the one who needs the support of the skating community. I just hope he doesn't end up getting screwed again for his bravery.

[phskate]

Webe has emailed to me some of your supportive and positive responses. For which I am eternally greatful. So tonight, I went in search of this forum to read what else was here. This was a forum I didn't even know existed, prior to this situation. I was stunned to see 8 pages of posts about my son's situation. This is, and continues to be a horrible ordeal, which I hope none of you ever have to experience first hand.
I read every post from beginning to end. Some of the comments were painful and some uplifting. I found some disturbing, but for the most part, they were all from people interested in helping. Some of the help was directed toward a coach that they felt might be innocent, some to a skater that might be traumatized, some to family members caught in the fallout, and some to Webe.
What ever your reason for responding I thank you for caring enough to respond. Apathy and lack of concern is what fertilizes the ground from which such perversion and evil springs.
Yes I have done everything that I should have done, in the right order, with the right amount of official action. I continue to work within the system that is in place for everyone to access.
May I say that the USFSA has been wonderfully supportive and very attentive to my grievance. The legal system, although it felt painfully slow, has moved quickly.
I simply felt a thankful response to those of you who have been supportive here was in order. I do appreciate the information and the advice you provided to Webe, who in turn provided it to me.

[Skatewind]

Originally posted by sk8er1964
The other thing that has been bothering me about the last dozen or so posts (and I've followed this thread from the start) is that some people seem to have a lot of sympathy for Lowry's family/associates, and none for the young man who was brave enough to take a stand - even though it could destroy his feeling of self worth, his skating career and possibly his life.
Maybe you should go back & read the whole thread again & not only the last dozen or so posts. There have been many statements in support of abused skaters & suggestions to help them pursue the matter. Someone can feel it's inappropriate for a poster to list the names of the family members who have nothing to do with this & still abhor the abuse of skaters. These views are not mutually exclusive, despite repeated attempts to present them as such.

There was a thread I read this week elsewhere that listed several names of relatives including grandchildren. None of them even live in the same state or have anything to do with Lowery's criminal charges. It doesn't matter that people in skating probably know their names anyway. It's obviously being done out of anger, not as any kind of a safety precaution.

WeBeEducated had a change of heart about the whole issue in the first place, because the initial posts implied this was a person who had conveniently overlooked some past information about the problem. It's commendable to see a person become involved & decide to take a stand, but even so it's not right to use it as a forum for misinformative gay bashing or insensitivity to others who also must deal with this serious problem.

[Skatewind]

Originally posted by what?meworry?
trillian is correct. usfsa can't ban bob young from buying a ticket.

by the way, i don't have any details of the specific situation(s) that resulted in his being banned from usfsa for life, just the "other" one.
The part about buying the ticket wasn't clear in the first post, but I understand what she meant now. If he was trying to coach them that way during official events, it might be within the referee's realm to take action on something like that since he cannot be a credentialed coach.

Who do you mean by "other" one, Gordon McKellan?

[what?meworry?]

Originally posted by Skatewind
Who do you mean by "other" one, Gordon McKellan?

no, the situation involving another skater.

and, please note that it is inappropriate to identify that skater.

and, yes, someone should have complained to the referee. allowing him to "coach" from the seats affords him status he no longer deserves within the usfsa competitive structure and serves to invalidate the grievance(s) brought to usfsa by his victim(s) and the usfsa abuse/harrassment policy itself.

[skaterparent]

I for one support the young man and his family !!! I think those on here feeling sorry, compansion or sympathy for Lowery or his family are screwed up big time and have the agenda NOT WEBE (and you are educated and thank you for speaking out!!!).

This old man is about as innocent as Bob Young and the fact that he's in his 70's is shameful. How many kids were abused by this scumbag? I really don't care about HIS family. Personally I hope his family dynasty in the figure skating world collaspes including the pocketbook of his daughter the coach.

IMO it is gay culture which promotes this behaviour, the coverups and morally corrupts the sport. If I had a son I would NEVER let him be a figure skater. I hope a TV newsmagazine like FOX NEWS picks this story up and runs with it, there needs to be more than just judging changes in this sport.

[Emanfan]

Originally posted by skaterparent
IMO it is gay culture which promotes this behaviour, the coverups and morally corrupts the sport. If I had a son I would NEVER let him be a figure skater. I hope a TV newsmagazine like FOX NEWS picks this story up and runs with it, there needs to be more than just judging changes in this sport.

Someone please tell me this is a joke.

[skaterparent]

No joke, I'm dead serious. Sorry if that's not PC enough for you.

[blades]

8-)

as a straight guy who grew up in the "enchanted" figure skating culture...i can tell ya that you're either a troll, a conservative christian or just a fool...

loving the same sex and desiring children as sex objects are two totally unrelated issues...

pedophiles are not about straight or gay sex...they are about dominating children...but what the hell...useless effort...i'm sure your self rightous mind is made up anyway...more 's the pity...

[what?meworry?]

Originally posted by Vskatefan
Your ignorance of this issue is showing. For more knowledge, a couple of URLS

http://www.malesurvivor.org/myths.htm
http://www.malesurvivor.org/10%20Facts.htm

i highly recommend the above as "required reading" for you.

[Emanfan]

Being politically correct has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Dealing with people like you is akin to dealing with white-hooded punks on horseback burning crosses on lawns.

Leaving this thread now before I say something I'll regret.

[what?meworry?]

ok folks, can we cool it. this thread is too valuable to be shut down by stooping to name-calling, as frustrating and infuriating as such comments are when we read them.

[jlong171]

Quite agree what?meworry? - Lets all cool it a bit so that nobody sinks this boat....

We all have our opinions, I hope I am adult enough to listen to what is being said, especially from people I dont agree with! However, I am still concerned at the witch hunt from some posters for the accussed's family!

ALSO: Of course, everyone has the greatest of sympathy for the boy in this, but I was sure that went without saying; perhaps not. From what has been said (by the boys own mother), it seems that the issue is being dealth with in the correct manner now. We will all have to "wait and see" what comes next.

It is interesting that there is a discussion on the USFSA discussion group about this (david lowery abuse????), but only a handfull of people have posted there. I have been looking there every day, expecting the discussion there to "take off", but it hasnt happened. Someone else has even posted there today to ask why people are not posting there! Maybe this is the better discussion forum???? Anyone know how popular the USFSA site is outside the professionals?

[sk8er1964]

Originally posted by Skatewind
Maybe you should go back & read the whole thread again & not only the last dozen or so posts. There have been many statements in support of abused skaters & suggestions to help them pursue the matter. Someone can feel it's inappropriate for a poster to list the names of the family members who have nothing to do with this & still abhor the abuse of skaters. These views are not mutually exclusive, despite repeated attempts to present them as such.


While I am willing to concede to your point that somebody can feel that it is inappropriate to list the family's names and still abhor the abuse of skaters, maybe I did not make my point clearly enough. Once the name of the coach got out, it seemed to me that the tone of the thread changed, veering away from sympathy to the boy and his family and towards sympathy to Lowry's family. It also seemed to veer in places towards bashing of WeBe for starting this thread in the first place. I didn't want people to lose sight who the real victim is here.

Also, I really do not appreciate the tone of your first 2 lines in the quoted paragraph. I have a high enough IQ to know what I have read in the past - I am well aware of the support in this thread for the skater and his family - that's why I specified the last dozen or so posts.


There was a thread I read this week elsewhere that listed several names of relatives including grandchildren. None of them even live in the same state or have anything to do with Lowery's criminal charges. It doesn't matter that people in skating probably know their names anyway. It's obviously being done out of anger, not as any kind of a safety precaution.

None of us have access to information that you may have read on another website. Why put it here, especially without identifying your source? How do we know that it is "obviously being done out of anger" when we have only your word for it and no concrete information?


WeBeEducated had a change of heart about the whole issue in the first place, because the initial posts implied this was a person who had conveniently overlooked some past information about the problem. It's commendable to see a person become involved & decide to take a stand, but even so it's not right to use it as a forum for misinformative gay bashing or insensitivity to others who also must deal with this serious problem.

I think that the majority of us have agreed that this is not a gay issue. I would sincerely hope that you were not implying that I believed that it was. As skaters, we do need to realize that we cannot condone behavior that promotes any sort of abuse, whether the abuser be gay or straight.

I usually do not choose to respond directly to other people's posts like this, but I felt that Skatewind's post was a bit too personally aimed. If I misunderstood, I apologize.

[Skatewind]

Originally posted by sk8er1964
I usually do not choose to respond directly to other people's posts like this, but I felt that Skatewind's post was a bit too personally aimed. If I misunderstood, I apologize.
Yes, there seems to be some kind of misunderstanding.

No, I will not be posting a link naming any family member names from other sources, because I believe it is inappropriate. However, if you review the post by skaterparent on the previous page, that seems to be a prime example of someone taking it out on his family in anger.

You questioned why people in the "last dozen or so" posts disagreed with WeBeEducated & suggested people were giving him/her a hard time. In my last paragraph I explained why I disagreed with some things posted by WeBeEducated. See the updates on page 3 (along with skaterparent's on the previous page) regarding why several people, not only me, may have thought it was being turned into a gay bashing issue. Is that supposed to be considered accurate information & gay support? I also noted what I thought was commendable in his/her posts, it was not only critical.

Since my posts were included in the "last dozen or so" you referenced, I will reiterate that my views on sexual abuse of minors has not changed from anything I previously posted & leave it at that. I tried to share some information earlier that would be helpful to skater in this situation, besides expressing my concerns about some of the other issues involved. Perceive it any way you wish.

[Arsenette]

I agree with posters that this thread has LONG passed it's usefulness - it should not have happened at all IMO. In the future you should ALL know that rumours should be left off this board - especially of this nature. Should there be a problem you spot - inform the authorities - not post it on this board.