What Makes Figure Skating A Sport?

[IceDanceSk8er]

I hope that this question will stir the passions of skaters and coaches. I recently got into one of those nonsensical arguments with an idiotic sports columnist who stated that figure skating is not a sport. It's the typical babble about any sport that has choreography or costumes is not a sport, completely ignoring the athleticism that the sport demands.

I'd enjoy reading why you think figure skating is a sport.

[love2sk8]

If something that involves 3 hours on-ice training and off-ice/cardio training to go along with that isn't a sport, then I donno what is!! :frus:

Figure Skating is highly demanding ...but it has grace and elegance to make people think that it's more of an art. Skating is soo intensely competitive and physically demanding which is why I think it's a sport!:)

JMO

[WeBeEducated]

Top level ballet dancers also spend hours practicing daily, must also balance physical demands with creativity, and wear costumes/makeup etc...and ballet is not considered a sport by the average Joe.
I think we want to call skating a sport, but lately I am beginning to understand why most people think of it as a physically demanding, uniquely presented artform. As a sport it is beginning to lose meaning because the objective of the sport is vague not just to observers, but even the participants, who struggle to please the judges and try to figure out what they really want to see in a skater. That will cripple skating, because it cripples the motivation to be independent, daring, and cutting edge. Skaters are encouraged to follow the accepted "norms" and not "offend" the judges, many of them being elderly and old school. They are encouraged not to speak about winning. The script is played over and over about "I just want to skate a clean program" etc., as if stating a desire to win would be too tough for the prim skating world.
Athletes in other sports play to win, push the envelope, and represent a greater diversity than we have in the USFSA. All these things contribute to the general publics' concept of skating as a pretty past time for wealthy suburban kids who can afford daily lessons of $250 per week and monthly icetime bills of $700 or more.
The fact that the expense makes it ultra exclusive for the average/working class kid also means that there are more copy cats in the sport putting out the same product, than original, awesome talents forcing the sport in new directions.
It has been the same ol same ol for so long that currently the fan base is shrinking, many teen skaters are losing interest, and nothing new has been seen for so long that it seems like skaters are performing programs like gift wrapped presents all from the same store...if I see another version of the same footwork from Morosov I will scream!!!!!!!
In the ladies the jump content is the same as it was in 1992, and often not even as good! Yamaguchi won worlds more than 10 years ago with a triple triple...and today the current champion didnt even do that on a regular basis. So the sporty aspect of skating isnt reaching new heights but has stagnated, rather like the skills seen in ballet. Impressive skills, but not the players needed to up the ante, nor the system available to recruit and reward a diverity of talent.

[IceDanceSk8er]

Originally posted by WeBeEducated
Top level ballet dancers also spend hours practicing daily, must also balance physical demands with creativity, and wear costumes/makeup etc...and ballet is not considered a sport by the average Joe.

I agree with most of what you say, but I think you would be hard pressed to find an elite ballet dancer refer to their craft as a sport.

Originally posted by WeBeEducated
As a sport it is beginning to lose meaning because the objective of the sport is vague not just to observers, but even the participants, who struggle to please the judges and try to figure out what they really want to see in a skater. That will cripple skating, because it cripples the motivation to be independent, daring, and cutting edge. Skaters are encouraged to follow the accepted "norms" and not "offend" the judges, many of them being elderly and old school.

I totally agree with you on this point. My mind is drawing a blank right now but I cannot think of anything that has been very innovative in figure skating in the last five to ten years except bunga pads. Perhaps Tim Goebel landing consistent quads. Anyone have any ideas?

[sonora]

There really aren't many sports whose officiating is not subjective in some way. Argue that for a while with your sports columnist.

In football, hackey and basketball, fouls are often missed or disregarded by the officials.

In baseball, where the heck is the strike zone?

And try to defend boxing's officiating, I dare you!

I did once get a friend to admit not that figure skating was a sport, but that boxing wasn't, after a spirited argument along these lines.

However, we do need to rescue our sport's officiating or risk losing all credibility.

[IceDanceSk8er]

I think it all gets back to judging. I wonder if gymnists has the same problem with judging. I can't recall any judging scandals in gymnastics. Is there a lesson to be learned from gymnastic judging?

[IceDanceSk8er]

I think it all gets back to judging. I wonder if gymnists have the same problem with judging. I can't recall any judging scandals in gymnastics. Is there a lesson to be learned from gymnastic judging?

[bleu]

It does not have something as tangible as a timer.

I was talking to a friend about this. He thought the problem is not the costumes and make up but an effective method of scoring. His example,

speed skating - it just the skater and a timer. The winner is the first skater to reach the cross line and this is validated by the score shown on a timer. It is clear and simple. No one is going to tamper with score before the event or dispute the score.

winner - 13.59.02
2nd place - 13.59.15

skating - there is the skater and the judge. The winner is determined by the judge who evaluate a performance. The problem is not so much that it is a judged sport but that there is nothing in place that comes close to the "timer" in speed skating. Even though the judges follow a particular criteria, there is still something missing....something that other sports have.

[luna_skater]

So what about gymnastics, snowboarding, ski-jumping, or moguls, all of which have a judged aspect?

[sonora]

Speed skating also had its officiating scandal at the 2002 Olympics, with controversial calls involving Apollo Ohno and the Korean spped skaters. Korea was enraged at what it felt was biased officiating.

[IceDanceSk8er]

Figure skating will always have this core group of critics who will argue that it is not a sport. All sports has its detractors. While no one questions the athleticism involved in figure skating, the subjective side - judging - has done more to harm the sport's credibility and image than anything else.

Obviously, this is not news to anyone on this forum.

What I do find disturbing is the complacency shown by the federations - the ISU in particular - and their inability to correct a serious problem. No one has convened any type of conference to discuss the issues that are harmful to the sport and develop a plan to make improvements. (The USFSA seems content with the "Street & Smith's Sports Business Journal's" survey that shows figure skating as the 5th most popular sport in America. They know that figure skating will never overtake football, baseball, college football and basketball in popularity, so things are left they way they are. When curling becomes more popular than figure skating that might light a fire under someones butt.)

I haven't seen anything on the Governing Council's agenda that addresses these problems. While the delegates will be tackling issues that will affect competitors, these meetings take on a Monty Python like quality - putting things on top of other things.

Just my ramblings.

[bleu]

IceDanceSk8er - further to the problems that you have mentioned, the ISU is not atheletic-centric. When a mark is questioned, where do the skaters go, who speaks on their behalf etc....

Everytime there is a problem, the ISU is dealing with the judges, you don't see an official (representing the skater) releasing his/her findings in a press release.

[IceDanceSk8er]

Originally posted by bleu
IceDanceSk8er - further to the problems that you have mentioned, the ISU is not atheletic-centric. When a mark is questioned, where do the skaters go, who speaks on their behalf etc....Everytime there is a problem, the ISU is dealing with the judges, you don't see an official (representing the skater) releasing his/her findings in a press release.

bleu - I agree. The problem with the ISU is Ottavio Cinquanta - he comes from a speed skating background and seems to have limited knowledge on how to improve the publics perception of figure skating as well as the environment in which skaters compete. Figure skating needs someone with a figure skating background (a David Dore or Phyllis Howard type) to speak for the sport. I don't know about you but Cinquanta confuses the hell out of me. I remember getting a brain cramp listening to Cinquanta trying to explain the new judging system right after Salt Lake. He does not represent the sport very well.

[loveskating]

Ok, gymnastics, boxing and wrestling are judged; diving is judged; there are referees in most sports, i.e. football, baseball, basketball, who in fact "judge" rules broken and their judgments can certainly affect the outcomes, and in a close game, hugely sometimes!

Explain to me how this is qualitatively different than figure skating...in other sports, such as boxing, the judges can even determine the outcome straight up!

Ballet is supremely athletic, but there are no public competitions...unlike in say, ballroom dancing as it has developed (there are numerous competitions within ballet to get into various programs, for jobs etc.).

Figure skating developed as a sport, it is a sport, because it decides who is who based on competitions.

No one with even a smattering of knowledge would EVER argue that some ballet dancer or tenor was great because of all the medals they won...

I think most of the pro writers who claim that skating is not a sport are simply too stupid or stubborn to learn the sport or they have a vested interest in harming the sport on behalf of some other sport they and their associates are hawking for prime time.

Skating may be a corrupt sport, but it is a sport.

[WeBeEducated]

In the real sports that are judged you dont have that secrecy that surrounds skating judges. A ref might make a bad call but everybody there is shouting at him and forcing him to take a look at a replay , etc.
The judges in the skating world, at home and abroad, have been given a power and authority that undermines the sport, because judging is ultra subjective, mysterious, and desired outcomes are easily manipulated in skating.
I have seen it locally, just as obvious and just as biased. The judges have been protected, the skaters have been forced to play games with their efforts. The judges are not questioned at all, or very rarely, and a skater is made to feel they will be less well received if they dare to ask for an explanation. I have seen scores from the bottom to the top for an individuals performance. Why not regularly expect some form of accountability for the athletes?
Until it looks like it is more than fluff with questionable judging, with very few tangibles that are consistently applied, the general public will regard it as a nonsport, men in particular.

[loveskating]

Originally posted by WeBeEducated
In the real sports that are judged you dont have that secrecy that surrounds skating judges. A ref might make a bad call but everybody there is shouting at him and forcing him to take a look at a replay , etc.
The judges in the skating world, at home and abroad, have been given a power and authority that undermines the sport, because judging is ultra subjective, mysterious, and desired outcomes are easily manipulated in skating.


Skating judges now have replay, do they not?

ALL the charges of corruption have been aimed one way, but I STILL fail to comprehend and CANNOT get my mind around why the very same ISU that selected the judges for the worlds and olympic medals of Torvil and Dean, Tonya Harding, Paul Wylie, Todd Eldredge, Elvis Stojko, Brasseur & Eisler, Nancy Kerrigan, Michelle Kwan, Bourne & Kratz, Michael Weiss, Sale & Peltier, Sarah Hughes and last year Sasha Cohen and A.P. McDonaugh etc. etc. etc. are not EQUALLY CORRUPT!

Why is it that the judges are "fair" ONLY when Americans and former NATO skaters win?

I just think anyone who marks 5.1 when the panel is marking 5.6 5.7 and the skater is getting high marks generally, ought to be immediately reviewed and possibly removed as a judge. I think the math games ought to stop, and right now!

[speedy]

I don't know where you're getting the idea that people are saying the judging is corrupt because North Americans are getting screwed...and in fact some of the people you list there as supposedly benefitting from the system were screwed royally themselves, especially in the Olympics. The cases have been made quite well over the years that Wylie in '92, Stojko in '94 and Kerrigan in '94 were robbed of gold...especially Paul, I like Viktor, but come on. :roll: And since when did Torvill and Dean get undeserved marks? Unless you count their last Olympic appearance when they were marked disgracefully while G&P skated an unremarkable 50's dance program for gold. 8O Todd won his lone Worlds gold over Elvis, why would that be considered some kind of gift to North America?? Sarah Hughes' Olympic gold was wholeheartedly deserved, few people have questioned that she should have won that night...she was outstanding, far above the rest of the ladies. Michael Weiss eeked out a couple of Worlds bronze medals, wow, lots of controversy there. :roll: Sasha deserved her wins on the GP last year, and probably should have won another had it not been for the sekret computer that the ISU has thrust upon the world in all their wisdom. I've seen no great debate over Michelle's Olympic medals, except for the fact that many people think she skated at least as well as Tara (another North American no less, scandalous!) in '98. I've also seen little argument over the fact that Russians have dominated Pairs, Dance and Men's skating at Worlds and the Olympics in recent years. I'm getting pretty weary of NA bias accusations just because we want this sham of a judging system and out-and-out disregard by the ISU for the sport of figure skating halted.

As far as officiating mistakes in mainstream sports, you're missing one big difference in these sports. Unless the controversial call is made at the end of the game, the slighted team still has time to alter the outcome of the game. In skating, you don't get a second chance after your marks come up. Your only option at that point is to use the "cry" part of "kiss and cry." Unless skating goes to some kind of system with judges posting their marks on a huge scoreboard as some kind of running tally for jumps and completed elements, the skater will never have any idea where they stand and what they need to do to attain the marks they need until after their program is over. This is the problem with almost every "judged" sport...the decision is final, there are rarely any judges' explanations for the marks and corruption seems abundant, but hard to prove, and even when it IS proven there is virtually no retribution to the cheating parties. That alone is why many people have a hard time calling figure skating a sport. The longer this archaic and festering system is allowed to continue, the more figure skating will decline as a sport in this country and the world.

[muggie]

IceDanceSk8ter - Ask your sports writer friend this.... Since when does football, basketball not have choreography (I think its referred to as the play book.)? Since when does football, basketball not have costumes (think shoulder pads, helmets, nike tennis shoes, and we can't forget the refs in their black and white stripes)?

There's certainly a lot of fufu in skating. My dad laughed for years at Toller Cranston's low cut, lacy jumpsuit style costumes. But in general, I think there's much in skating that just doesn't appeal to the average man. Classical music, sequins, grace, elegance, the perfection of it all, and how, sort of, refined skating is. Most male oriented sports involve a team of men ganging up on another team of men and basically dominating and vanquishing each other until the "best" man/team (read: biggest, strongest, fastest, most physically intimidating) wins. Think about it.....lacrosse, rugby, football, soccer, basketball. The most refined male oriented sport is baseball, which is starting to die out for lack of interest.

[terisalyn]

I agree Muggy. When you get right down to it, some people (mostly male people) don't think figure skating is a sport because women like to watch it! :lol:

[IceDanceSk8er]

Originally posted by muggie
IceDanceSk8ter - Ask your sports writer friend this.... Since when does football, basketball not have choreography (I think its referred to as the play book.)? Since when does football, basketball not have costumes (think shoulder pads, helmets, nike tennis shoes, and we can't forget the refs in their black and white stripes)?

muggie - I have discounted my sportswriter friend's opinion of figure skating. He doesn't get it and probably never will. Just for the record, I am male and my daughter is a national ice dance medallist. I used to play hockey, enjoy watching the Stanley Cup, but figure skating is my favorite sport. I enjoyed watching figure skating even before my daughter started skating.

Think about this: while sports writers criticize the choreography aspect of figure skating, every time you see these football specials on TV, there is always a clip where they slow down the action so that the viewing audience can appreciate the "ballet" or "choreography" of a running back's dash to the end zone.

I think what these sports writers are saying is any activity where an athlete can't get slapped on the butt for a job well done is not a sport. Maybe that's what figure skating needs - a butt slapping event. Perhaps the skater can slap the judges :)

[Alexeiskate]

I think if skating can move away from the beauty pageant aspect of the sport then it will be taken seriously by more sport writers. I mean there aren't that many sports where the men wear sequines and ruffles and pluck their eyebrows and wear make-up (not that's there anything wrong with that :D ).

[loveskating]

Speedy:

Perhaps I was not clear: I don't question the wins or placements of any of the Americans etc. I listed...but you and I differ because I do not question the wins of Petrenko v. Wylie etc...those you claim were robbed. Again, you seem to list mostly American and North American or former NATO block skaters so that all this takes on a highly political tone instead of a skating tone.

My point is that when it comes to accusing the ISU, I just don't see how the same ISU that selected the judges who gave the gold or other medals to those Americans etc. that I listed somehow were "corrupt" when others medaled.

In fact, if anything, it would appear that the ISU is overall quite fair, that those who skate well win, and that no nation is favored over another overall.

In the concrete, it just appears that some folks seem to think that ANY time an American or North American does not medal, there is corruption.

[Chris_M]

You need do be a graceful as a ballet dancer

Flexible Like a Cirque De Soile dancer

As tough as a football player

As focused as a table tennis player

and as athletic as any athlete can be

[speedy]

I only listed the skaters you mentioned in your previous post that were supposedly "NATO" skaters that won medals with the same "corrupt" judges that doled out medals to non-NATO skaters. I'm sure there are North Americans that scream every time one of their skaters loses and cries "corruption"...just as there are Europeans and Asians that scream when their skaters lose, but most knowledgeable skating fans aren't that biased. They just enjoy good skating, no matter who wins. I think what most of us have a problem with right now is the obvious shenanigans that are going on behind the scenes (no matter your take on the Pairs Scandal, it was a debacle and sham any way you look at it), and the ISU's lame attempts at pacifying the uproar and criticism with ridiculous judging systems and unagreed-upon rules changes that further disjoint the world of figure skating.

This sport is in a major transition right now, whether the USFSA or ISU likes it or not, and the next few years will determine the future of this sport...and yes I call it a sport, no matter what some idiotic sportswriter calls it. It works both ways...I can't picture Tim Goebel playing hockey, but I also can't picture Scott Stevens doing 3 quads. Actually, I can picture it, but it's not pretty. :lol: Every sport has its place and appeals to different audiences...I'm also a big college football and basketball and NHL fan, so IceDanceSk8er you're not the only crossover sports fan out there! I can see how most guys can't appreciate skating, and the whole makeup/costume/choreography thing does nothing to help bring in male fans (at least in Men's skating :lol: ). Becoming a male figure skating fan requires an open mind and at least a little appreciation for classical music and artistry. I'm not criticizing any guy that isn't into figure skating though...I don't know too many women that will sit through a whole college football game. ;)

[Mandera]

loveskating - I don't doubt that fans from other countries also kick up a fuss when one of their skaters loses in a controversial decision. They also likely call the system corrupt. You probably just don't hear from them as much because this is an English speaking forum. And there are also many wins by non-"NATO block" members that are not disputed. It is not good enough for the ISU to be fair "overall." It needs to be fair every single time, and whenever it isn't, I think it should be criticized. The ISU never becomes suddenly corrupt; the corruption just comes through in certain situations.

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by loveskating

Skating judges now have replay, do they not?

I just think anyone who marks 5.1 when the panel is marking 5.6 5.7 and the skater is getting high marks generally, ought to be immediately reviewed and possibly removed as a judge. I think the math games ought to stop, and right now!

This has been previously mentioned but perhaps not everyone is aware - there is now no way for a judge to change a score that is entered, even if it is wrongly entered. There are a few cases where perhaps the judges entered the wrong score and were not able to rectify the error - because it was already keyed into the computer.

Just one of the many problems with the computerized judging system used... there has been times where the system seems to have hung at Worlds, and you see the referee and judges crowding around a computer screen... meanwhile the next skater is on the ice, and has to deal with waiting and waiting till the pervious skater's marks can be retrieved from the computer.

I work with computers, and there are times technology shouldn't be used in place of humans. If you haven't already read it...

http://www.frogsonice.com/skateweb/articles/crash.shtml

[icyboid]

To use a hackneyed approach, according to dictionary.com:
1.
a. Physical activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often engaged in competitively.
b. A particular form of this activity.
2. An activity involving physical exertion and skill that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often undertaken competitively.
3. An active pastime; recreation.

Although this fits many pastimes, figure skating does fit all of these, nonetheless.

[Kemy]

Originally posted by loveskating

My point is that when it comes to accusing the ISU, I just don't see how the same ISU that selected the judges who gave the gold or other medals to those Americans etc. that I listed somehow were "corrupt" when others medaled.

In fact, if anything, it would appear that the ISU is overall quite fair, that those who skate well win, and that no nation is favored over another overall.

In the concrete, it just appears that some folks seem to think that ANY time an American or North American does not medal, there is corruption.

I agree with you on this loveskating. I've always wondered why the corruption has always been blamed on the "Eastern Bloc." Western countries also have their preferences also. I don't think the the ISU is corrupt. Why is it that no other scored sport, like diving and gymnastics, has these problems.

And back to the subject...I think if there was to be a ballet competition where the technical side of ballet was examined, then ballet could then be called a sport. Competitive skating is definitely a sport, whereas I would call exhibition skating an artform.

[castalinas]

I'm hoping in the coming year, figure skating will finally begin acting like the sport it is. Maybe with the new judging rules and more attention rewarded to the technical side of things, the sport will evolve finally and stop being looked at as some kind of dance off. I'm willing to give the ISU and Speedy the benifit for now. If there are new people winning some competions next season because of the changes then I'll say it's working .