Skate Canada and "official coaches"???

[Likethewind]

I am wondering how on earth Skate Canada can forbid someone to coach. I live in the US and I teach piano privately at a music store. I don't have to have any degree (although I do have one) to do this. There is no LAW (unlike in a public school where you have to have x degree to teach) that forbids me to teach. I can teach whereever and whenever and for however much I want with no credentials at all. The fact that I have them simply makes it easier to find students.

So is there a LAW in Canada that you cannot coach skating without a certificate or is this just what SKate Canada in it's clearly overcontrolling way demands?

Here I could teach anyone i wanted to ice skate on a public session and no one would care. The parents could ask me if I was approved by the USFSA and if I said no they would still have the FREEDOM to have me coach their kid regardless if they happened to like me. Does skate Canada screw a rink if they let a noncredentialled coach teach on on a public session? Can this somewhat fascist system be LEGAL?

Sounds like in Canada the rink or the Skate Canada police throw you off the rink if you teach without their particular certification.

Can't a skater be coached by anyone they want - is it just that Skate Canada won't recognize them at their events? I mean how can they stop me as a mother say - from coaching my kid if I can't afford a coach or whatever.In the US you can test with no coach or with your mom as your coach or whatever as long as you are a USFSA independent member or represent a club.
It sounds very very big brotherish to me up there in Canada.

Here in the US I don't know about what happens in competition, but i know I couldn't care less about the official credentials of the coach I had. He was good and my skating got better with him and that is what mattered to me.

[Susan]

Likethewind


In Canada coaches must follow a certification program
Here are a few links so you may educate yourself about
the Skate Canada Coaching Programs

www.3m.com/intl/CA/english/about_3m/coaching
www.skatecanada.ca/english/programs/coaching/text.html
www.skatecanada.ca/english/info/rules/rulebook.html


Almost every amateur sports federation in Canada subscribes to the NCCP program and requires a minimum level of training for all coaches in their programs. Indeed you must be level 4 NCCP certified to coach any Canadian Team at the Olympics

There is no LAW that prevents anyone from teaching skating; however there are Skate Canada rules that require any coach hired by a Skate Canada club must be NCCP certified.

If a coach is not certified then they can not be accredited for coaching at Skate Canada Sanctioned competitons, test days etc.....

Foreign coaches fall under different rules

[sonora]

Doesn't this kind of remind you of the blacklists in Hollywood duirng the 50s? Maybe a blacklisted coach can get an "approved" coach to officially sign off on the skaters, just as blacklisted screenwriters had to do when they wrote screenplays in the 50s.

[Madame Saccoche]

It's not a question of being black listed but rather an effort by Skate Canada to ensure that coaches have some basic training and to improve the quality of coaching in all clubs. The level one certification is not hard to obtain.. It's a weekend of theory teaching, a basic first aid course and then some supervised teaching. (If there's more than this somebody go ahead and correct me).

I don't think Skate Canada is being terribly unreasonable here. No more so than an employer only hiring high school graduates.

Good luck trying to teach on a public session, usually they are very crowded. Our local arena doesn't allow jumping and spinning on the public session, too dangerous.

We do have several arenas where the ice is open only to figure skaters, theoretically it would be possible to coach there with out any credentials but most people around here get their level one the day they turn 16 so they can start earning a bit of extra money coaching.

[sonora]

Madame S., by the blacklisting I meant the Skate Canada reaction to the WSF and threast to their coaches.

Not the certification, which I am generally moderately in favor of.

I think Susan and I posted at (almost) the same time.

[ice mommy]

For level 1 I believe that there's a weekend course for the theory part, a 4 day course and then the supervised teaching part, and of course the first aid course which is through Red Cross or a similar group. Still, it isn't difficult to get this level or others...it just takes time and effort.

I think what some of the US people don't understand is that in Canada, most of the time it is the Club which books the ice and sells session time, not the arena. There are a few skating schools which technically aren't under Skate Canada's rules and programs. Those who skate there must join Skate Canada through a member club if they want to compete or test. However, because most of the coaches at the Skating Schools will want to retain their Skate Canada accreditation, they'll likely be careful about doing what Skate Canada tells them to do.

[jp1andOnly]

the new skate canada rules to get your level 1 is a little crazy. First off you must amateur coach a certain number of hours. Not too bad. Then you must be videotaped, you must also submit a radio ad, and other strange things like that. It takes over a year to get your full certification. In small remote areas you probably wouldn't have a mentor coach and therefore wouldn't be able to get certified without having to travel elsewhere. Also, if your skating club doesn't offer that many hours of instruction time than it will take you a lot longer to get your certification.

Skate Canada needs to rethink just how long and how much time effort and money a person has to put in to becoming a coach. I'm sure a lot of people get frustrated at how long it takes

[Norlite]

I would be very interested to know how this differs from The USFSA.

If anyone from the States has any actually knowledge of what accredation is needed to coach in a USFSA sanctioned club, could you let us know?

I'm assuming it is basically the same.

Editted to add: In searching the USFSA site, and without members only access, all I could find was the mission statement of the Coachs Committe, which seems basically the same as SC.

[Norlite]

Also, no one is "forbidding" anyone from doing anything.

Skate Canada's position is that if you choose to be a member, or actually partake is activities within the WSF, which is basically a competing organization, you will not be considered a member in good standing. The same way the USFSA has decided that if a skater skates with SOI instead of COI, they will lose them "member in good standing" status, which includes eligibily status, and other rights.

[blades]

8-)

at present...it's an open market in the states...many coaches belong to the professional skaters association (psa) which does have educational programmes, testing and ratings...

depending on the rink and/or club, membership in the psa and ratings are not manditory for being able to coach...and, again at present, a coach may follow their student all the way to the olympics with no accrediation at all...this, however, may change...the olympic committee wants accrediation "to protect the athelets"...

education and accrediation is a good thing...but...i've always maintained that if a coach gets a student to any competition (be it local or worlds or olys) that they've just proven their capability to coach...

sometimes, "to protect the children" is a great way to gain control over a group...protection is one thing...absolute control over one's way to earn a living is quite another...

[vesperholly]

The USFSA has no requirements for coaches. They work in tandem with the PSA, but nothing is forced. Depending on the location, either the rink employs the coach or the club independently contracts the coach.

I think the certification for Level 1 sounds a little overzealous, but I also think that it would be nice to have a guide for measuring coaches other than their own skating accomplishments. Good skaters don't always make good coaches, but there isn't any other good barometer for a coach's coaching level since most (at least the ones I know) only do the PSA exams sporadically.

Jocelyn

[ontherock]

From what I have heard Skate Canada also has a strong insurance program that it extends to its member clubs as long as the member clubs have an accredtied coach on the ice... as long as liability is in question I think it would be best to err on the side of caution and only use an accredited coach...

[shopper]

skate canada's policies have caused us to lose many many great people as coaches... they gave no credit for knowledge and ability...
eg:. duschaneys, liz manley, karen preston, doug ladret etc etc...
all of these people and many more whose names i can't think of have left canada and are coaching in the u.s.a. lucky americans.

[ice mommy]

Originally posted by vesperholly
I think the certification for Level 1 sounds a little overzealous, but I also think that it would be nice to have a guide for measuring coaches other than their own skating accomplishments. Good skaters don't always make good coaches, but there isn't any other good barometer for a coach's coaching level since most (at least the ones I know) only do the PSA exams sporadically.

Jocelyn

One problem as I see it is that the level 1 training is focused on the learn to skate level only. Yet those who are level 1 certified are free to coach those entering the test stream even thought their knowledge of how to teach jumps, spins, stroking, etc. may be minimal to non-existant.

If there's going to be control, then that control should include all areas which will benefit the skater. Having said that, the manner in which this system operates does give Skate Canada a huge amount of control of coaches and clubs.

[yankeepolka]

I'm doing level 1 right now. you need to take a 2 day NCCP theory course that costs $75.00, a first aid course that costs $50.00 and then you take a technical course (CanSkate assignment) through Skate Canada. The first course costs $300.00 and it goes for 3 days. All it teaches is CanSkate. Once you've done that you can register as a Skate Canada coach and teach CanSkate only. The next step is a home study guide. You have 6mnths-2 yrs. to coach x # of lessons with a 'mentor' coach (anyone level 1 or higher who's been coaching for 5+ yrs) After you've completed the home study guide you take another technical course through Skate Canada. This course is another 3 days and it costs $250.00 and it teaches you about the test stream. After that is the Practical component and that requires 50hrs coaching, coaching 2 lessons in front of an approved mentor, submitting three 15min. videos of yourself coaching jumps, skills, dance, stroking (your choice) and finally you submit a coaching record. After that I believe you have to take an evaluators clinic so you know how judges judge the test system. They may have taken that out though. So after all of the above you are finally level one certified and can coach test skaters in a club. It is a very costly and time consuming pursuit, especially if you work fulltime. Many skater's (16 yr +) do take the first technical course (CanSkate assignment) and then they are qualifed to teach CanSkate only. It's a nice part time job for the teenagers.
Skate Canada coaching certification does continue up until level 4. It gets much more difficult the higher you go, as Skate Canada requires your skaters pass certin high level tests before you (the coach) can get their level. I believe for level 2 you need your skaters to pass 2 tests at the Sr. bronze level or higher. By level 3 you need to produce gold level skaters or novice competitve skaters. I know many national level skaters (aside from the well knowns) who went to teach in the U.S. to avoid the whole NCCP thing.

[ice mommy]

Thank you yankeepolka for the update on NCCP level 1 in skating. They have indeed made changes to the requirements since I last inquired. Do you know if there are any exceptions to the need for some of these steps? That is if a skater has competed at a certain level are they required to complete all components?

[sonora]

USFSA offers affordable liability coverage to all coaches regardless of credentials.

[StarshineXavier]

In addition to what yankeepolka said, after you complete phase 3 of level 1 technical, you may be hired by a SkateCanada club. You can be working as a coach while you're working on completing the practical component, as long as you have a valid first aid certificate.

[dbny]

I can add that anyone can join the PSA if they are sponsored by a PSA member. Rating requires testing, but the first test is written only and you are provided with a study guide when your application is received. I've heard the first test is no joke and that study is definitely required.

The USFSA, ISI and PSA are currently working on coordination their requirements, standards etc. for coaching. I'm getting my PSA app in and taking that test before things get tougher here in the US, as they most certainly will.

[yankeepolka]

I believe there is a 'fast track' option for skater's that were on the Canadian National Team and skated at internationals, GP events, Worlds etc....they still have to go through some sort of process, just not as intense.

Also, I just wanted to mention the Theory component isn't through Skate Canada it's the National Coaching Certification course. When you take the theory course, the other 'coaches' are from all different sports. In my class I had community soccer and baseball coaches, boating instructors and a bowling coach. It's up to the sports organization to decide what the technical and practical components are. A lot of the people in my theory class were shocked to hear how intense Skate Canada's process is. Although there is a big difference between coaching a baseball team and being a figure skating coach.

[roogu]

Just an update on the NCCP Level 1 requirements for skating ... that the 2 lessons coached in front of an evalutaor has been eliminated ... as well as the judging seminars for both level 1 and 2.

So basically Level 1 is now:


Theory Course - 2 days in length .. around 80 bucks

Must have passed preliminary free skate, dance and skills tests.

Technical Phase 1 Course - 3 days in length, and 300 dollars

Home Study Guide (Phase 2) - basically, complete a workbook and also apprentice with a mentor coach for 15 freeskate, 15 dance, 5 skills and 5 CanSkate lessons .... the minimum time to complete this portion is 6 months.

First Aid Course - depending on what agency you do it with, usually around 100 bucks

After you've done all this, you can be hired as a CanSkate coach by clubs even though you haven't finished your entire Level 1 yet.

TO finish off the entire Level 1 process and be able to be hired as a full professional coach, the candidate must also complete:

Jurnio Bronze Free Skate, Dance and Skills test

Level 1 Phase 3 Course - 3 days and around 300 bucks

Practical - complete 50 hours of coaching
- submit 3 video lessons for evaluation

Once all this is submitted, ta da, you're a fully certified level 1 coach with all the priviledges assigned thereof.

So by the time you're certified with level 1, you would have invested about $1000 into the system ... and it'd take about a year and a half to two years to do it.

300 for level 1 technical phase 1 course
300 for level 1 technical phase 3 course
80 for Level 1 theory course
100 for first aid
about 100 for registration as a coach with Skate Canada
another 40 for a rule book
and of course, travel and meal expenses while you're at these seminars/clinics
being threatened by Skate Canada .... priceless.

[vesperholly]

Originally posted by blades
education and accrediation is a good thing...but...i've always maintained that if a coach gets a student to any competition (be it local or worlds or olys) that they've just proven their capability to coach...

I couldn't disagree more. Coaches can get lucky and get skaters with amazing raw talent and take them pretty far. I tend to value consistent excellence over flash of brilliance - a coach who has had many gold medalists, skaters who stick around, etc I value more than a coach who has had one National competitor. Ie Frank Carroll (who has had National and World champions since the late 70s) or Carlo Fassi over Robin Wagner.

Not to mention that skating isn't all about competition... but that's way OT. :-)

Jocelyn

[Madame Saccoche]

Thanks for the update Roogu, maybe when I've got an extra $1000 to burn I'll do level one.

[Isabelle]

Another point which bothers me with all these requirements to become a Skate Canada coach is that you're supposed to have level 4 to coach at an international competition, 3 for national, etc. I think if you're a good enough coach to get your skater(s) to a high level of competition, your level of "qualification" shouldn't be relevant.

[PointBleu]

Originally posted by Isabelle
Another point which bothers me with all these requirements to become a Skate Canada coach is that you're supposed to have level 4 to coach at an international competition, 3 for national, etc. I think if you're a good enough coach to get your skater(s) to a high level of competition, your level of "qualification" shouldn't be relevant.

Don't you know that in Russia, most of the coaches hold a degree in physical education? That degree is almost equivalent to NCCP level 4...
In many Europenas coutnry, the coaches are expected to go through some kind of system before coaching too. I know it exists in France for sure, though it is done outside of the French Federation. Any coach, in any discipline, must have a training 'brevet' obtained through techinal schools.

I do not agrre at all that because a coach has a skater at an X level is relevant (ie not needing a certification). Some can get a talented skater but do not know how to manage them to become a long-term champion (ie lacking basic ressource regarding nutrition, physical training, psychology, etc.).

What people learn in these SC courses are not silly things, a waste of time. Things get more interesting at the level 3, where coaches learn to plan around a year schedule, modualting training regimen, incorporating many different physiological, physical and psychological aspects.
I think we should ask the level 4 and 5 coaches if doing the tasks (the 20 tasks required to be cetfied level 5) helped them being better coaches, if they have seen results after taking the courses.

I am sure some coaches got some part of these informations through the years as skater, working with other foaches or through their own education. But skating has evolved a lot since coaches were skaters and I think condition/body training is a much more important aspect in today's skating and the only way to make the coaches interested in it and competent is through these courses.




As for foreigners comeing to Canada, there are some ways to get around the system faster. A World competitor gets some techincal levels credited right away. They only need to do the theorical courses.

[Isabelle]

I think if a skater wants a certain coach at a competition, they should be able to have whatever coach they want -- as far as I know, Skate Canada doesn't pay for any of the coach's competition expenses, the skater does.

I do think coaches should have SOME qualification, I just think that Skate Canada goes a little overboard.

[jp1andOnly]

I know a coach who had a skater go to nationals. Well, the coach couldn't coach the skater becasue the coach didn't have the level 3 qualifications.

[PointBleu]

I know of a situation like this... but if coaches know they need a certain level, why don't they go get it?
At the beginnig of the year, if you have a novice skater, the logical thing to do would be to do the level 3 as fast as one could because it is no secret he coach needs it to be allowed by the boards...

Why other coaches had the qualification and not this one? Maybe you can explain the situation to me, what happened.

[roogu]

One of the reasons might be due to the fact that the higher the level is, the longer it takes to get levels. Courses to get these levels are only held once a year, and with several phases per level, it could take two, three even four years to get your level 3.

[jp1andOnly]

The coach in question was a young coach. The coach had only been coaching a couple of years and had just recently got level 2. The skater clicked with the coach and the skater wanted to skate with the coach. So the skater did. And like the other poster said, level 3 is only offered a couple times a year. No one thought the skater would make it to nationals, but the skater did and the coach did not have level 3 in time

[Susan]

The coach in question must have been coaching longer then the period required to complete level three because there is an allowance made for coaches who are new to the profession

[jp1andOnly]

yes..that coach was coaching longer. But that coach was primarily a recreation caoch and only had canskaters and low level skaters as students. The coach was able to attend nationals but had to have another coach with level 3 be the head coach while the coach sat in the stands and coached.

[land64shark]

My daughter's coach is on the USFSA's Coach's Committee and is heavily involved with the PSA. He is pushing for certification for all coaches in the US. He is particularly concerned with ethics. He has seen and had to deal with far too many complaints about unqualified coaches,
mostly foreigners. Any foreigner can come to the US on a tourist visa and then never leave. Then they can claim to be the 2 time national champion of Khazestan (where there are no records to check) and start coaching in the US without any knowledge of USFSA rules. It happens all the time.

[jp1andOnly]

i agree land. There does need to be some regulation. However I think there needs to be a balance maybe some of the USFSA and some of SKate Canada's regulations combined. I think criminal record checks are also a good thing. Many clubs are starting to impliment them.

[Skatewind]

Originally posted by land64shark
He is particularly concerned with ethics. He has seen and had to deal with far too many complaints about unqualified coaches,
mostly foreigners.
I disagree it is mostly foreigners. I work directly with USFSA coaches everyday, & there are plenty of unethical coaches of all varieties. At least many of the foreign coaches have actually been to Worlds or competed internationally. The problems I see arise more often are with the very low qualified coaches, often ones who can barely skate themselves, who try to present themselves as having qualifications they do not have.

[Skatewind]

Originally posted by Norlite
The same way the USFSA has decided that if a skater skates with SOI instead of COI, they will lose them "member in good standing" status, which includes eligibily status, and other rights.
A skater would not become a member not in good standing from skating in SOI instead of COI. This is inaccurate. The skater will lose their eligibility status for skating in SOI if they do not obtain a USFSA sanction or approved contract in advance from the USFSA. However, they may still be a USFSA member & would be in good standing. Membership in good standing & ineligibility are two completely separate areas.

Coaches must be USFSA members in order to coach at USFSA events & maintain liability insurance. Anyone who buys an insurance policy & a USFSA membership can claim to be a coach, no matter their qualifications. That is the problem with the current system. Of course, there are people without the necessary qualifications who have also used creative writing to obtain PSA ratings, so there will always be people who will try to circumvent the system by providing misleading & false information.

[loveskating]

I'm confused on one issue...how does a coach fabricate acocmplishment when they have to produce the records of what level they have achieved, either from the ISIA or the USFSA?

Anyone can teach anyone at a public session...or even at a skating club session, and in fact, informally, skaters are always helping one another.
Once you start asking for money for that, however, you are into all sorts of legal arenas, including income tax reporting.

NOT anyone can test skaters for official ISIA or USFSA tests, nor sign skaters up for a ISIA or USFSA competition....and there is nothing wrong with that...its a means of maintaining professional standards, and we all want that for our children when they learn to skate.

There is a known process by which skaters learn, and its comprehended by the tests...although the process ought to be changed as more is learned.

[Likethewind]

It is interesting to note how many people think that if you can skate you can coach. Nothing could be further from the truth as i can attest from being a piano teacher (with college degree). The ability to TEACH is completely different from the ability to perform. There are a LOT of skaters (and concert pianists) who cannot teach, don't know how, and have no patience or talent or imagination for it. There are known teaching techniques including knowing how to teach people in different ways depending on how they learn (people learn in very different ways from each other).The fac tthat you are a teenager who can skate does in NO WAY WHATSOEVER qualify you to teach. Teaching is communicating information to someone which has nothing to do with skating or playing the piano -with the obvious exception that one must be able to skate or play the piano to teach these things. I mean simply that the ability to do these things is completely different from the ability to teach them. There are many skaters who cannot verbalize things at all well.

It isn't necessary for one to have done a quad even to teach one - as evidenced by the number of coaches teaching them who have never done one. I don't know where this reaches it's lower limits - I mean - can you teach a DOUBLE jump if you have never done one? Can you teach a single if you have never done one? I would think that you would have had to have done at least a double jump to teach a triple as the mechanics must be slightly different but close enough - It must be very difficult to teach a triple jump if one has never done one yet people do this.

I know I could not teach anything in skating that i have not done but I could teach the things I know how to do - not so much because i know how to DO them but because I know how to EXPLAIN how to do them to someone else in a variety of ways depending on how someone learns. This is far far trickier than it sounds and involves not only knowing how to explain things clearly in words, but also a LOT of psychology and knowledge of what approach gets results. One size never fits all in teaching. Some kids learn by seeing it done as a whole and just imitating it, Others learn by having it explained in detail. Others learn by seeing it divided up step by step -some learn by constant encouragement, others by wanting to be pushed, others by needing constant analysis............

Make sense to any of you coaches out there?

[blue111moon]

loveskating, people fabricate stuff on resumes all time. As club president, I've had to check on coaches several times, and it's amazing how poor USFSA's and especially ISI's records are. Even PSA isn't perfect, although theyre usually just behind in their record keeping, rather than wrong. I've also fielded questions from other clubs calling because a coach listed my club as a reference from 20 years ago (I was HERE 20 years ago!) but no one in the club had ever heard of her. If the potential for making money is there, some people will lie to get it. It's rare for my small club to get anyone interested in coaching here that hasn't skated with us or isn't known to several current members or coaches but we do get them. We're not about to hire stangers without checking them out.

Add in the complication of foreign coaches coming in with no way to check their qualifications and no way to compare names of levels there with ours (what is Gold level in Kazakstan may be something else in Poland or Korea, for example, and none of them may match USFSA's Gold Test or mean that the coach is a former gold medalist) and the need for some kind of standard testing.certification program become clear. Not all of the people moving to North America are former international competitors either so tracking their records becomes difficult, if not impossible.

the USFSA/PSA/USA Hockey alliance is a step in the right direction. I don't think SC is wrong is establishing a coaches certification program of their own. At least a parent or club can be reasonably sure that the coach they're paying knows what they're doing and has some training for the level they're teaching. Does the system fit every single person in every circumstance? Of course not, but it makes a good starting point and reference.

[loveskating]

Thanks Bluemoon...that is really awful...and its not like local pros make HUGE amounts of money...taking into account the split with the rink!!!

But my kid has a patch for every single test she passed...and a piece of paper as well, and I remember paying the fees for both the tests and the recording of the tests...and I've saved everything and every yearly card with her numbers in a scrapbook!

My kid just made HUGE progress as soon as she started taking private lessons from certified coaches...there is no way in the world I'd recommend to ANYONE that they go it outside the USFSA ir ISIA...and there is also the further issue of getting the right pro for your particular kid.

As for the Russians, well, they were demonstrably incredible from what I saw...and the kids with them made very rapid progress.

I also agree that there is a process to teaching, and that being able to skate does not mean one is a good teacher...and I'd go farther, and claim that one perfectly great coach might not work well with your particular kid.

There are also issues like full time...most USFSA rinks I know of want pros who are not doing another job, and who are gold or silver, while other rinks allow pros to work part time, and the levels of documented skill are not as high.

[loveskating]

FYI at this time, the only thing that the lifetime ban by the USFSA on Tonya Harding means practically is that she cannot test or go to competitions with the kids she coaches....so she can never hope to develop as a top level skating coach.

I'm not sure that in a broad context, people would necessarily like to open the door so that a skater can have "anyone they like" coach them...and I suspect that some of the very same people advocating such a broad open door in light of the WSF would be the first to say that Harding should not be allowed to coach. You cannot have it both ways...

This is how the baby gets thrown out with the bathwater...