How would YOU Have placed the Ladies SLC SP/LP?

[originalQA]

I re-watched the Olympic SP last night, and was surprised at how I was thinking:

In the SP, I would have placed the Ladies:

1st - Irina - I dispise Irina, and Michelle was really untouchable artistically, but Michelle was not unfathomably better than Irina. Plus, Irina had the 3z2l, and her speed was fantastic.

2nd - Michelle - she could have fallen and I see no way I could have placed her lower. Her artistry was mind-blowing.

3rd - Sasha - she really was good. While her landings were squeaky, she was really fast and had good emotion.

4th/5th - Sarah and Maria - I was really torn here. While you can argue that Sarah was "gawky" and had the flutz and wonky landings, her 2axel, layback and spiral were as good as anyone, if not better. BUT, Maria is a former World Champion and she did not have any major deductions, even though her layback and spiral were about as bad as possible. I was surprised that Maria was not placed 4th, especially after winning Europeans, but I guess Sarah had 3 years of International exposure under her belt as well.

Here goes my LP choices:

1st - Sarah
2nd - Sasha
3rd - Irina
4th - Michelle

Now, if Sarah was 4th in the SP, she would have won. I guess that is the way it should be.....

[i:5c903dbcfe]Please post this sort of discussions in General Skating Chat, Polls & Thoughts in the future, where it had to be moved to. -adrianchew-[/i:5c903dbcfe]

[shine]

SP-
Irina, Michelle either way.
I'd go with Irina since this is a technical program but Michelle rightfully beat her with the prez marks.
Sasha
Maria
Sarah

LP-
Sarah
Michelle
Sasha
Irina
Fumie

[Badams]

i don't know how i would have scored michelle, irina and sasha for the short. probably michelle, irina, then sasha. then fumie, sarah, maria.

long...sarah, michelle, irina.

but in all actuality...i would have gone home screaming and crying LOL! sometimes i wonder how the judges do it! talk about a tough decision! with the exception of sarah in the long program...the others were really tough to call. in my opinion at least! i guess that's why i'm not a judge! :P

[leap of faith]

I wouldn't have changed a thing!

In the SP, Michelle did cheat her flip and was deducted in her tech marks. Everything else was spot on though. I'm not sure why she thumbsdowned it unless she thought her flip was clean.

-0.2-0.3 which is what the judges did since she had no marks above 5.7

and 5.9 for pres is fine by me for that program.

Irina was clean thus a slighty higher tech mark but it looked a little cautious. Once all balances out MK wins the SP.

After that I'm not sure...it's hard when everyone goes clean. You have to pick out flutzes but sooooo many skaters flutz and then it's the degree of the flutz.
when your 10th place skater went clean you know it wasa good skated but hard to judge event.


LP was fine for me too.

Sarah gets first.

Irina did land everything. There's debate as to a 2-foot on the lutz and the wonky flip but no 3-3. My question is the 4 judges who had her first. How did they justify that?

Michelle 2 footed her 3 toe and fell on the flip. But the program is lovely and keeps her ahead of Sasha.


Sasha...well she's about where she should have been. Fumie was not shown up here so I have no idea how she relates to her.
she fell on the 3-3. Her flip was 2-footed and the program is really front-loaded. Again my question lies with the 2 judges who placed her over Sarah.

[Scott]

I really can't fault the way the judges placed the ladies. It really turned out the way it should have.

[Dustin]

Short:
1. Sasha Cohen 5.8/5.9 - Her best program and skated the best she has ever done. Very solid with energy and emotion. .1 deduction for flutz on tech mark.
2. Irina Slutskaya 5.8/5.8 - Not her best skate, but still had solid jumps.
3. Michelle Kwan 5.6/5.9 - Good skate and program, but I would have taken a .3 deduction on the flip and she would not have a 6.0 starting mark because the program was not as difficult as she could have done.
4. Sarah Hughes 5.7/5.8 - Nice program but the flutz was a bad one and she landed too close to the wall (while that is not a real problem, it hurts the presentation IMO).

Long:
1. Sarah Hughes 5.8/5.9 - Doesn't really need an explanation.
2. Irina Slutskaya 5.8/5.8 - She seemed slower and more nervous than usual and that shows in the presentation mark. However, she was, for the most part, clean but no 3/3 and no 3/3 attempt.
3. Sasha Cohen 5.7/5.8 - She tried the 3/3 and it was close, if only she would have checked out. The rest of the program was solid but not much emotion.
4. Michelle kwan 5.6/5.8 - First the shaky landing on the loop and the flip. The spins arent up there with the other ladies' yet, even though the positions are good and the speed is getting better. Even with the mistake, I think if she would have put more emotion and determination into the rest of the program, she could have gotten 2nd in the long.

Final Results:
1. Sarah Hughes
2. Irina Slutskaya
3. Sasha Cohen
4. Michelle Kwan

So it looks like I mainly agree with the judges, but 3rd and 4th, I think, should have been switched.

[loveskating]

If I were a judge?

SP: Irina, Sasha, Michelle

LP: Irina, Sarah, Michelle

(I'd have dinged Sarah for every under-rotation, and applied the rules as to speed into and out, height, ice covered, landing and takeoff edges and runout, speed on spins, difficulty of spins, bent leg on the spirals as to presentation, etc.)

I wouldn't have taken anything from Sasha on presentation in the LP, but she gambled big on the 3 lutz/3 toe loop as one has simply got to land those two lutzes in the ladies LP.

[Debbie S]

I agreed with the judges' marks for the SP, except that I would have put Fumie S. in the top six for sure. I'm not sure though, if I would have placed her above Maria or Sarah. I think all three were about equal, really; each had their strengths but also some weaknesses. I do think that Fumie deserved to skate in the final LP group.

For the LP, I agree w/Marco's marks. Irina did deserve higher tech marks than Michelle, but not equal or higher pres marks. And someone should have made an issue with some judges giving Irina 5.8s and 5.9s. Marks that high were completely undeserved, IMO. Sarah and Sasha ended up where each should have.

Of course, this scenario makes MK the overall winner, and I can understand why the judges, particularly in the wake of the pairs mess, didn't want to have an end result which the average viewer couldn't understand. Casual fans had just watched Sarah clearly have the best skate (at least in terms of jumps) and to be told that she could only place second b/c of the SP and Irina getting a debatable third place would have started a whole other round of "skating is corrupt" cries. I said at the time, and still believe, that if the SP standings bet. MK and IS were reversed, MK would have finished second, based not only on the judges' desire to have a result that made sense, but also her performance.

[Debbie S]

OK, that's strange -Marco's post was on here before mine, and now it's listed after - hmmm - the time clocks seem to be messed up

[Marco]

Well...

sp: 1st and 2nd very close, so were 3-6th for me

I would have gone with

MK 5.8/5.9 cheography gave her the edge
IS 5.9/5.7 best jumps but a bit deflated
SC 5.6/5.7 a bit out of control here and there
FS 5.6/5.6 best spins, 3rd if skated later and 5.7/5.7
SH 5.3/5.8 difficult cheography but mandatory deductions
MB 5.4/5.6 nervous
JS 5.4/5.4

lp: I decided these rankings without considering final standings

SH 5.8/5.8
MK 5.6/5.8
IS 5.7/5.7
SC 5.6/5.7
FS 5.5/5.6 (or 4th and 5.6/5.7 if skated in last group)

[icenut84]

Well I didn't manage to record the SP but I did watch it, and IMO Irina definitely deserved first place. Michelle underrotated her flip and didn't she have another mistake somewhere too? Plus Irina did the 3lutz/2loop and had a great footwork sequence (the all on one foot one).

LP - I pretty much agreed with the results, i.e. Sarah first, Irina second, Michelle third, Sasha fourth. I didn't really like Sarah's program that much though, even though it was the performance of her life I thought all but the last 20 seconds was a bit boring! I just didn't think the choreography or music was very memorable, JMHO. I liked her Don Quioxte better.

[AxelAnnie22]

[color=darkblue:9b7a547be9]Thanks for asking the question.

I would have scored them:

Short

Irina- her speed as well as tech difficulty carries the day.
Sasha - great speed and her jumps are gorgeous. Her positions in the spins are difficult. All of her tech elements are very very good

Fumie - Her program was beautiful, and skated excellently.

Michelle - Artistically, of course, she is great. However, this is the Short - Technical difficulty is what it is about, and here Michelle was lacking. The difficulty is not there, and the speed negates the high artistry marks, leaving her behind Fumie.

Sarah - Not a great skate for Sarah

Maria - Good effort, but the field is just this deep.


LONG

Sarah - those 3/3 just win, end of story.

Irina - Not her best, but still good in this field.

Sasha - Sure she fell, but the rest of the program, and her skating is wonderful.

Michelle or Fumie - (I am a little fuzzy here, but I don't think Fumie had any serious errors, and in my book, that places in front of Michelle with the fall.)


So, that gives us:

Irina, Sarah and Sasha (I think) - I haven't had enough coffee to figure out the factoring. I actually think that is how it should have gone. (although I wouldn't have a fit if Michelle and Sasha traded places). I think Irina should have won. Sarah was in 4th, after the short, and, although her LP was inspirational to watch, I don't think it was enough to best even an uninspired Irina. But, oh well. [/color:9b7a547be9]

[LAVENDER]

I'm still torn about Michelle and Irina with the short program but Irina's presentation marks would have been lower because Michelle's program and presentation were put together better than Irina's program.

3rd would have definitely been Sasha
4th Maria
5th Sarah. I just thinks she has the weirdest technique and it's flawed. Her nervousness really shone through this time. I've never seen her this nervous.

Perhaps I would have put Fumie ahead of Sarah also but I didn't see her so I can't say

Long program will have to go to Sarah. She was on for Sarah although I didn't like her program. I guess I'm the only one that liked this program best at Skate American even with the softer ending. I really liked this program at SA which is a lot when it comes to Sarah. As the season went on I liked it less and less for some reason.

Michelle 2nd because she was on before the flip (even with the 2 footed triple) and after the flip. She was cleaner then Irina in presentation.

I would have had a struggle with Sasha and Irina placement. Irina was just so sloppy and Sasha was careless with her triples but I thought she was better than Irina in the presentation marks. Irina didn't want to be out there and it showed because she was rushing through that program.

Michelle would have won and if it were any other year I think everyone would have understood that.

[bcskater]

in the short
michelle - 5.7/6.0
irina - 5.9/5.7
sasha - 5.8/5.8
fumie - 5.7/5.7
sarah - 5.5/5.8
maria - 5.7/5.5

in the long
sarah - 5.8/5.8
irina - 5.7/5.7
michelle - 5.5/5.8
fumie - 5.6/5.7
sasha - 5.5/5.7
jennifer - 5.5/5.6
maria - 5.4/5.3

overall
1 irina - 2/2 - 3.0
2 sarah - 5/1 - 3.5
3 michelle - 1/3 - 3.5
4 fumie - 4/4 - 6.0
5 sasha - 3/5 - 6.0
6 jennifer - 8/6 - 10.0
7 maria - 7/8 - 10.0

[BringontheRain]

Short
1. Michelle
2. Irina
3. Sasha
4. Fumie
5. Maria
6. Sarah
Long
1. Sarah
2 / 3 Michelle / Irina ( unsure )
4. Sasha
5. Fumie
Maria around 7th

So Overall ( if Irina was 2nd in long )
1. Irina
2. Michelle
3. Sarah ( I firmly believe that Sarah's bad short should have kept her down, it's about 2 programs not one )
4. Sasha
5. Fumie
6. Maria

If Michelle was 2nd in long
1. Michelle
2. Sarah
3. Irina
Then the same

[RoseAugust]

Top 3 -

SP: Michelle (without a doubt), Irina, Sasha

LP: Sarah, Michelle, Irina

[cienicsk8]

SP
1. Irina
2. Sasha
3. Michelle
4. Fumie
5. Sarah

LP
1. Sarah
2. Irina
3. Sasha
4. Michelle
5. Fumie

[nits]

SP:
Michelle
Irina
Sasha
Fumie
Sarah
Maria
LP:
Sarah
Michelle
Irina
Sasha
Fumie

Ultimately, Michelle would be the Olympic Champion.

[hiliairyh]

For the short program
Michelle
Irina
Sasha
Sarah
Fumie

Long program
Sarah
irina
Michelle
Fumie
Sasha

Overall I agree with the judges on the podium placement, and disagree with #4. I think Fumie should rank ahead of Sasha overall

[duane]

if i were judging the ladies competition on the skating [b:52f940b698]only[/b:52f940b698] :

SP
1. irina
2. michelle
3. sasha
4. sarah

LP
1. sarah
2. sasha (just [b:52f940b698]slightly[/b:52f940b698] above...)
3. irina
4. michelle

OVERALL
1. sarah
2. sasha
3. irina
4. michelle

If i added other factors to my judging (mainly reputation/record):

SP
1. michelle (for being the reigning World champ and reigning Olympic silver medalist, i would have "overlooked" her 2foot landing)
2. irina
3. sarah (a slight promotion for her consistent and steady rise in the ranks)
4. sasha (a slight demotion for it being her first year as a senior international eligible skater)

LP
1. sarah (clean program, two 3/3's...enough said)
2. irina (one simple 3/3 would have won it)
3. sasha
4. michelle

OVERALL
1. sarah
2. irina
3. michelle
4. sasha

(p.s.--i only have these four skaters on tape).

[lBrokenAnkle]

SP:

Michelle over Irina because Irina's lack of control over her blades. Speed means nothing if you don;t have mastery over it. I was so impressed with Irina at worlds because she had a huge improvement from the Olympics

LP:
Sarah
Irina
Michelle
Jennifer, I think Jennifer really got overlooked in the LP, not sure how much it would have pulled her up after the SP, though.

Laura

[AnnieD]

I re-watched the events a few days ago, so hopefully it should still be fresh in my mind. I'm more of a pairs fan so I like to think I'm reasonably unbiased!

Short Program

1. Sasha Cohen
2. Irina Slutskaya
3. Michelle Kwan
4. Fumie Suguri
5. Sarah Hughes
6. Julia Sebestyen
7. Jennifer Robinson
8. Maria Butyrskaya

Free Program

1. Sarah Hughes
2. Michelle Kwan
3. Irina Slutskaya
4. Fumie Suguri
5. Sasha Cohen
6. Jennifer Robinson
7. Maria Butyrskaya

[Debbie S]

OK, I finally worked up the nerve to watch the SPs and LPs yesterday. Some thoughts while the programs are fresher in my mind than at the time of my last post:

The SP standings were correct. Sasha did not deserve to be placed higher than third b/c she nearly skidded off her edge on her 2 axel landing. It actually looked like the same problem she had at Worlds in the SP, except that at Worlds she couldn't hold the landing like at the Olys. She also looked slightly out of control on the landing of the 3 lutz, plus the takeoff was flutzed. MK and Irina showed much better control and flow throughout their programs. As for the top two, it could have gone either way, but I think the marks were accurate - MK did get lower tech scores from almost all judges - the one 5.9 she got was from the Slovakian judge, so that should quiet charges of East/West bias. I think the pre marks were correct for each skater. Irina may have had more speed but she skated with her usual hunched posture and mediocre spirals and didn't have the spark that we're used to seeing. Plus, her final spin traveled somewhat.

The Sarah/Maria debate is interesting. I didn't remember this from the first time I saw it, but it was clear that Sarah two-footed her 3 flip, a 0.2 to 0.3 deduction (and I watched the slo-mo replay three times, so I'm not just blindly believing Scott and Sandra's words). She also did not "close the circle" on her spiral sequence, another 0.2 off, and she flutzed and slightly cheated her 3 lutz. Add to that the fact that she nearly hit the boards landing her combo and showed noticeably less speed than she has in the past, and I think her marks were accurate. I started thinking that Maria should have been placed higher, until I saw Maria's program. Although she had clean jumps and a true lutz, they had their usual akward landings and she was even slower than Sarah, plus her layback spin was, well, bad. Compare the two and it's a toss-up, so I understand the split judging panel, but I'm satisfied with the placements, and would also have been satisfied if they went they other way. (and I am not a Maria fan)

For the LPs, I would place them the same way I did in my earlier post. MK did have a better 'skate' than Irina, and their jumps were about equal, the difference being MK's fall on the 3 flip and Irina's 3 flip with the illusion spin landing. I don't think Irina two-footed her 2nd 3 lutz, but I also had to re-watch MK's first 3 toe about 4 times to see the two-foot, and even then it looked slight - having been at the past two Nats and then watching tapes upon returning home, I can attest to the fact that TV doesn't always give the best view of things. OTOH, sometimes things are clearer w/ the TV view, depending on the angle. I'm not prepared to crucify Scott and Sandra's observations of anyone just yet.

One thing that keeps coming to mind is Irina's outcry that she was unfairly marked and the comments by some commentators and people on the Net, not to mention the Russian skating fed, that Irina was unfairly marked in the SP and should have been first, which would have given her the gold medal overall. But the fact remains is that Irina could have won the LP very easily with just one 3/3, and they certainly haven't been a problem for her in the past. But Irina obviously decided to take a gamble after seeing MK fall (she said in an interview that she was out along the ice level at this point, waiting for her skate) that she wouldn't need a 3/3 to win. I'm guessing she didn't know exactly what Sarah did, but the fact is, she did need the combo. After MK's mistakes, the door was wide open for Irina, but she didn't walk through it. 'Nuff said.

[hiliairyh]

[quote:28a2adb769="lBrokenAnkle"]SP:

Michelle over Irina because Irina's lack of control over her blades. Speed means nothing if you don;t have mastery over it. I was so impressed with Irina at worlds because she had a huge improvement from the Olympics

LP:
Sarah
Irina
Michelle
Jennifer, I think Jennifer really got overlooked in the LP, not sure how much it would have pulled her up after the SP, though.

Laura[/quote:28a2adb769]

I thought both Fumie and Jennifer were overlooked in the lp, they should be ahead of Cohen.

[loveskating]

Just factually, Michelle very badly underrotated her flip jump in the SP at Salt Lake City...in fact, looking at it now, its a miracle she saved the jump...anyone can see that the blade is almost perpendicular to the ice as she picks in. I don't see how she won the SP against Irina, because Irina's difficulty was just higher and she was flawless.

In comparison to Sasha, with a slight skid on the runout of a huge, very well done 2 axel (I don't agree she "nearly skidded off the edge") one would think that MK's mistake on the flip would have been far more costly than it was, since the flip is the more difficult jump as to the rules on the order of jump difficulty...and both were landed. I suspect Sasha got dinged for her very slight flutz and entry to her flip...but nevertheless, Sasha's flip jump is awesome, IMHO, and was that night...huge, technically correct and incredible runout, air position, etc. Sasha's connecting elements are unsurpassed, IMHO, her required elements, i.e., spins, spirals etc. are either equal to or harder/better than Kwan's.

In comparing MK to Irina in the SP, Irina's jumps are bigger and cover more ice...which according to the rules is supposed to differentiate...also, Irina did a 3 lutz/2 loop, which is a more difficult combination than Kwan's 3 lutz/2 toe loop. Irina's spirals lack extension, but they have greater speed, more lean, better edging as to accelleration than anyone else among these competitors. Irina's footwork, being serpentine, and thus it is required it goes the length of the rink, was more difficult than Kwan's.

As for the LPs, Michelle not only fell on her flip, but she seriously two footed her 3 toe loop in the combination, and the 3/3 became a 3/2. This was a pick into the ice at the landing, not just a slight scratch of the blade when the non-landing leg is coming around...she seriously two footed it, and even Bezic said so, so I'm not the only one who noticed. Additionally, she was very tight...she hesitated often throughout the program, and seemed to be slow, resisting the blade with her body.

IMHO, the only thing that kept Michelle Kwan on the podium was the fact she did a 3 lutz/2 loop in her LP and her second lutz. Otherwise, even with a fall on her lutz combination, Sasha would have been third. Sasha was solid on everything except the lutz combo, and she did land the lutz part of it, so she got credit for that.

As for Irina, the only mistake she made was a wonky landing on her 3 flip...but she did land it. She did a 3 sal/2 loop, step, 2 sal I think, in any case a very difficult jump sequence (unless I'm missing some edge rule) and the 3 turn into the 3 loop plus her usual 3 lutz/2 loop...all except the flip were very well done, the best jumps in the field, as to quality, IMHO. Hamilton said she two footed her second lutz, but she did not.

And Sarah, well, Sarah did two 3/3 combos.