Why are the dance threads so emotional?

[Phuket]

I've been noticing how emotional some of the ice dance threads get. Why is this?

Please post your thoughts. I've tried twice to post this thread but have gotten knocked off line after having written volumes. All my best has been lost to cyberspace. :evil:

I'll post my thoughts later. I'd just like to get this topic going at this point.

Looking forward to hearing everyone's input.

[sonora]

There are several emotional "themes" I think.

One is the disappointed parents, usually of female ice dancers.

Another is parents/coaches/relatives/friends of current teams, trying to do a little recon and if they do a little damage at the same time, so what?

The actual skaters themselves, teams who have broken up and are hurling accusations at one another, make about as much sense as the recently divorced do, and I would give them the same amount of credence.

The actual love of ice dance doesn't seem to surface too much.

[Louis]

Perception is everything in dance. There are no triple-triple rumors, flutzing accusations, or jumps to count. Teams and their handlers are desperate to create a positive image of their own team, and, too often, a negative image of their competitors, in order to give their skaters the momentum (artificial as it may be) going into a competition.

[Angel01673]

I know all to well what it's like to be the victim of rumors, and let me tell you, it's not pretty. I just wish people would realize that just because you heard something from your friend's sister's ex boyfriend's 3rd cousin, doesn't make it true. And whether it's true or not it's not our place to speculate anyone's buisiness but our own. These people have feelings and believe me words can hurt. It seems like a big game of telephone is going on.

[Mazurka Girl]

Originally posted by Louis
(artificial as it may be)
That about sums it up for me. ;)

[sonora]

Louis, are you saying that dance judging is so subjective that rumor and reputation can make or break a team?

[Louis]

No, I'm saying that certain parents/coaches/skaters believe that dance judging is so subjective that rumor and reputation can make or break a team. Big difference. :)

[JKlink]

I think some of the parents believe that their teams need the publicity in order to be successful. It’s funny how much we hear about some new teams with a link to their web site and for others we still don’t know if they really are a team. I wonder if both the skaters and parents believe their own hype?

Dance is emotional because you don’t have the jumps for comparison as you do with single and pair skaters. I know that I can’t judge the differences in CDs between the top 3-4 competitors, but I know what I like. The ODs and FDs are much the same where both the music and costumes can have an influence on what you like. To me there are two major aspects of a good program, one is the technical difficulty in the program and which includes lifts, spins and footwork sequences, and the other is choreography, which covers speed, flow and how the choreography compliments the music.

I think dance is a lot like picking out fruits and vegetables in that what you think is a perfect tomato, isn’t the same one that I would pick. JK

[quarkiki2]

I have no idea why the dance threads seem emotional. But I don't think they're the only ones -- some of the ladies threads get pretty heated, too.. There's just something about Ice Dance that comes across as soap opera-ish. This is actually unfortunate because Ice Dance is so hard and can be so beautiful, but I just have a hard time with the behind-the-scenes drama.

Personally, I generally avoid the dance threads and will sometimes pass on the ladies threads if they get too personal or irrelevant.

[sonora]

I was just thinking that the Michelle v. Sasha v. Sarah threads always seem way more fraught with emotion than the dance threads, and the opinions as to who should prevail uneducated in a technical sense. The average fan may know that Michelle lands triples because Dick and Peggy tell them it's so, but Ms. Average is still picking the girl she likes best to win not the best techinal skater.

The public deludes themselves that they are knowledgeable about the technical minutiae of freeskating.

And Jklink, come sit with me next time you're watching compulsories, and I'll help you pick out what to look for.

[JKlink]

Originally posted by sonora
And Jklink, come sit with me next time you're watching compulsories, and I'll help you pick out what to look for. 8O Is it the same thing the judges are looking at? JK8O

[sonora]

JKlink:

One can only hope!

[IgglesII]

Originally posted by Louis
No, I'm saying that certain parents/coaches/skaters believe that dance judging is so subjective that rumor and reputation can make or break a team. Big difference. :)

I'd agree with that. Talk to a dancer, then compare it to a conversation with a singles or pairs skater. Singles/Pairs skaters seem to talk more often about actual skating, dancers seem more interested in discussing their judges' feedback.

[what?meworry?]

i think you're selling many of the dancers short here. but you do have an interesting cast of characters.

to start with, the cynical ones who went into to dance 'cause they couldn't jump (or skate for that matter) and figure it's an easy way to nationals, just don't last.

then there are those who may have talent but want results! results! results! immediately because they work the most hours and spend the most money. they last a bit longer, but usually become discouraged and drop out. this group includes the partner-who-cannot-be-wrong, blame their coaches, and/or partners and discard them and go from partner to partner never truely advancing. they occasionally become the abusive partners.

and then there are the dancers who really love to dance. the come in a wide range of shapes and heights. if they are lucky to find a matching partner, they can truely enjoy the sport (and that comes across on the ice), develop and grow by the standards they set for themselves, and some of them reach the top.

pairs has this potential for soap opera of the ice, but the personalities usually don't stay around long enough for us to become invested in them. not since meno/sand have i seen a pair team with drama. skill and talent, yes, but not drama.

many of the dancers, at least hang around long enough for us to get to recognize their names year to year.

there are the great tragedies of teams lost and dreams unfulfilled...those who quit or broke up...who could have been brilliant, successful international team.

and yes, it's so much easier to account for performance in fs---theoretically---you land the jumps or not. but the dance is compelling.

as jimmy disbrow once (not publicly) said at a dance committee meeting---"what dance really needs is a good scandal." well, isu has tried to accommodate. but this was shortly after the harding/kerrigan thing, so i think the idea was a hair-pulling cat fight at nationals in the niddle of the ice during warmup! in front of the cameras.

we seem to be approaching that critical mass. hmmm....

so why are the threads so emotional...

perhaps it has to do with dance being the "cinderella" of figureskating. it's beautiful but treated badly.

but the skaters really love it. they have to in order to persist. this represents drama.

every year someone brings up the idea that ice dance isn't a sport and shouldn't be in the olympics. the plot thickens.

the theme persists (although based on reasonable assumptions from years past) that if you can't jump you go into dance is no longer true. some of the finest SKATERS are the dancers at nationals. the villian.

the misperceptions of the parents and/or coaches that it is all "political" and you can gain rank with the right "politics" which, thank goodness is not true. unless the "politics" is actually talented teams working with talented coaches. the red herring.

and the winners are.....

and then there is the "reality tv" aspect of former partners talking it out on the threads....i think this is a first for discussion boards.

[Aussie Willy]

Well the costumes these days are pretty disgusting most of the time!

It has also been a long standing issue throughout the many years of dance that the best quality skaters are not necessarily the ones who win. Case in point - B&K for years were acknowledged as the best technical skaters in ice dance but never got the gold medal until they sold out and tried to become Russians (sorry to offend B&K fans - I have been a B&K fan for years but I really thought this year's FD was their worst ever - however having said that their quality of skating was better than L&A's and that is why they won). (Now I am wondering if these comments will draw an emotional response.)

Also the judging has played such a large role in generating the emotional debates - mainly because it has been so corrupt.

The other thing I would like to add is this a very North American debate. Most of the emotion seems to come from people in the US and Canada and most of the people in this forum are from these two countries. But it good to have healthy debate and particularly when it comes from people who are very educated about ice dancing and skating generally like most people here. And it is great that people like to talk about skating which I miss being from a country where we just don't get to see it.

[Phuket]

Thanks to everyone who has posted. It has been interesting reading your views.

I'm of the opinion there are two factors that generate the emotional context of the dance threads, frustation and money. As Aussie Willy remarked, this board is mostly US/Canadian based and that plays into my theory.

Generally speaking the North American dance teams, with a couple of noteable exceptions, have not had too much success on the international scene. This has lead to frustration on the part of the fans as well as the skaters. In turn, we see the emotional posts that run the gamut. If you really want to see the emotional posts just try and criticize a successful North American dance team. The fans of the North American dance teams are loyal indeed.

I believe sonora is correct that the Michelle/Sasha/Sarah threads can get emotional, but these are typically threads generated by fans and not the skaters themselves. Whereas the dance threads may be fan or skater generated. This is what I find interesting about the dance threads. Ever notice the number of hits a dance thread gets? It's usually much higher in porportion to the number of posts. I suppose the same could be said for the Michelle/Sasha/Sarah threads.

Second, money. The amount of money that it costs to train a dance team is unbelieveable. The ice time, training the compulsories, OD and Freedance, the costuming for all of the dances, plus the costumes for practice at competiton...worthy of competition themselves! Most parternships involve at least one skater moving to a new location, new school. I'm trying to stick to things that are fairly specific to the expense of dance. I believe this is the main factor in the skater generated posts. The frustration over the hard work, money spent that doesn't bring immediate results.

Well, I could go on and on..but I won't :D This wasn't meant to be a TA-DA post. Just my thoughts. I'm sure some of you are saying "well, duh?" Sorry for being so long winded.

[sonora]

Aussie Willy:

B&K are not particularly good technical skaters. Their dancing in Nagano was mediocre. They were on two feet all the time, no quality of edge. Their strength seems to be in their whining. I always felt their placements were higher than they deserved. In fact, they are practitioners of the " a little noise/spin/reputation will get you a better placement" school of dance competition.

I am so glad they are FINALLY retiring so we can really see what else Canada has to offer in the way of dance teams. Please, someone who can skate!

Hydroblading is a parlor trick which should be enshrined in the shows along with the back flip, not used at competition. Typical of the B&K all hype-no quality school of skating.

[Anjelica]

LOL:lol:

[BJY4EVR]

Originally posted by sonora
Aussie Willy:

B&K are not particularly good technical skaters. Their dancing in Nagano was mediocre. They were on two feet all the time, no quality of edge. Their strength seems to be in their whining. I always felt their placements were higher than they deserved. In fact, they are practitioners of the " a little noise/spin/reputation will get you a better placement" school of dance competition.

I am so glad they are FINALLY retiring so we can really see what else Canada has to offer in the way of dance teams. Please, someone who can skate!

Hydroblading is a parlor trick which should be enshrined in the shows along with the back flip, not used at competition. Typical of the B&K all hype-no quality school of skating.

I've never heard anyone be so completely wrong before?!?!? I'd love to know what expertise you possess that allows you to make such an inaccurate statement. Actually, B&K are EXTREMELY talented technical skaters... in fact, that's their biggest asset as a team. I'm not even that big a fan of them, and artistically I don't think they really compare to alot of teams past, but anyone who knows ANYTHING about skating should be able to appreciate what accomplished technical skaters they both are. Both Victor and Shae have some of the deepest knees in the sport, and incredible edge quality. Though Shae sometimes suffers from bad posture, she is probably the most solid, and powerful female dancer in the world.

As far as your comment referring to hydroblading being a parlor trick... that's just rediculous! It has opened up a whole new level of movement to ice dance; hardly a parlor trick.

BJY4EVR

[legjumper]

BJY, sonora was making a joke.

Dance threads emotional, indeed. ;)

[sonora]

Thanks legjumper for your support, but actually it wasn't a joke.

Hydroblading is a fairly easy trick to learn and do. B&K stay on two feet way too much.

BJY4Er:

I am not going into my creds here, but just ask a high level dance judge about B&K. Notice the eye rolling, the sighs, the head shake.

Not good technical dancers. Watch the feet.

[speedy]

Were any of these head-shaking, sighing, eye-rolling judges the same ones that awarded B&K the gold medal in D.C.? :roll: Sorry, I don't have access to "high level" dance judges like you do to gain such meaningful insight on our World champs.

[sonora]

Who knows? The judging in DC was secret.

[Emanfan]

Originally posted by sonora
...Hydroblading is a fairly easy trick to learn and do. B&K stay on two feet way too much.

BJY4Er:

I am not going into my creds here, but just ask a high level dance judge about B&K. Notice the eye rolling, the sighs, the head shake.

Not good technical dancers. Watch the feet.

Nonsense. Perhaps you should go into your "creds" here.

I guess the judges at Worlds were all "low level".

[SkateSam]

I think that the reason that dancers and threads about them and their partnering and competitions are so emotional is because, even with recent judging changes, this aspect of skating as a whole remains subjective, e.g., instead of rewarding technical completion of jumps and spins as in freestyle and pairs and than adding an artistic score, recognizing speed and overall look prevails in dance--somehow the artistic impression is included in both scores and the elements themselves remain less important after all; therefore, finally to get to the point of this, dancers and/or their pushy parents/coaches try to promote them/selves as being the best matched, best looking, etc., and unfortunately, others as worse or not as good, and sometimes the best "dancers" are not recognized or rewarded for just plain great dancing. However, it sure is great entertainment to read all of the trash and speculation, if one knows how to read between the lines and recognize great talent when exhibited!

[loveskating]

Ice dance is the hardest to judge, and the mistakes are so often not seen by casual fans, or even by very knowledgeable fans...the requirements are so complex (all these patterns, and the fullness or shallowness of them etc., I swear, I think ONLY the judges, the coaches and the ice dancers themselves fully understand them) so its very easy to complain...

I LOVE ice dance, I don't want it to be removed from the sport, so I generally just stay out of the debates lately...and it appears that the country that has the most power will use ALL that power to make sure things go as they like anyway, so I just try to enjoy the skating itself, and not worry about all that since most of us can do nothing about it anyway.

[Aussie Willy]

Sonora - I disagree. I have always thought B&K were extremely good technicians. The thing that impressed me the most with their programs this season, particularly their OD, was the quality of their edges and it's smoothness. When I saw their OD the first time I just went WOW because it was so polished and flowed beautifully. There was no roughness to what their feet did on the ice. And as for being two footed, that was a problem in the past but it is something that I have really watched for over the last couple of years and it is no longer a problem. Even their FD (which I hated and I thought really lacked any chemistry) was very smooth and polished and that is why they won worlds. And the fact that I hated that FD and agreed with why it won Worlds says something for the opinon I have about their skating ability.

And going back to 98, I thought their OD at the Olympics was just lazy and two-footed. Riverdance was technically very good but they did not get it totally together until they performed it at Worlds in 98 (at the Olympics it had unison problems but at Worlds the unison was spot on). And having seen them live at Worlds in 98 they should have at least won the Silver Samba in the compulsories, which the compulsories are meant to demonstrate basic skating quality and compare the teams doing the same steps.

I am sorry to digress from the question this topic originally asked, but after the disagreement with my initial statements, I felt I had to comment and illustrate why I think they are great technicians. Plus the reason I offer these opinions is that I do ice dancing myself and it is also an opinion that my ice dance coach has offered herself.

Now you can see where the emotional debates come from! :lol: They are mainly about B&K!

Also just to add - another reason to the emotional debates have often stemmed from the compulsories. There are have been many times when the top team has made obvious mistakes during these and have still been placed first (eg G&P at the Olympics in 98 and K&O at Worlds in 98). The deductions just did not happen and these teams won those sections of the events.

[vesperholly]

I think you can find your answer in the fact that these skaters, by and large, are still children. They are most likely in the 13-17 age range, which can be a very nasty age. I did some cruel and stupid things when I was that age that I am embarrassed to admit to today.

Most young dancers are nice, smart, and hard-working. Most. I don't think we should infer that junior elite ice dancing in the US is a catty, nasty world because a few skaters have gone overboard on a public message board.

Message to said young skaters (and any others lurking): This is a PUBLIC message board. You *never* *know* who reads these things. Reputation in the skating world is important. Going online and trashing other skaters or building yourself up will create nothing but trouble. Would you really sit in the stands at Sectionals and talk about how incredible you skated, or make derogatory comments about one of your competitors? No, because their mother/coach/partner could be sitting behind you. Same situation. Just say no.

Jocelyn

[SkateGuard]

Originally posted by vesperholly
IReputation in the skating world is important. Going online and trashing other skaters or building yourself up will create nothing but trouble. Would you really sit in the stands at Sectionals and talk about how incredible you skated, or make derogatory comments about one of your competitors? No, because their mother/coach/partner could be sitting behind you. Same situation. Just say no.

Remember that judges have jobs--and Internet connections. I'm extremely careful about what I say on the boards because I am an adult competitor.

And if my coach found out that I said something deragatory about a competitor on the Internet--I'd get a lecture. (And I'm nearly 30!)

There is an elite-level synch program that has a policy that the skaters are not allowed to post on any message board--including the USFSA one. It's not a coincidence; synch judging can be just as confusing as dance.