3/3 Supercheats

[sorrowfree78]

:roll: :roll: :roll:
I want to make sure no one thinks this is a bashing thread.

NOW DON'T GET MAD SLUTSKAYA FANS and Excidra!!

BUT, I WAS WATCHING THE 2001 WORLDS on TAPE, and I HAD NO IDEA THAT IRINA DOES a triple salchow/double axel/double toe instead of what we thought was a triple salchow/triple loop/double toe. She does the same thing on her missed Triple lutz/triple loop. She starts out on a loop edge (back outside?) and then turns her BODY and skate 180 degrees before she leaves the ground!!! I thought that she only had 1/4 cheats!!!

She is worse than Amber Corwin who turns her body before leaving the ground on her triple toe/triple toe!! I had NO IDEA!!

Who else cheats????

Does Sarah Hughes do a 180 cheat like this? or is it 90 degress?

Well, I know this is an old debate, but I had no idea that Irina was doing axels out of her triple salchows.

I think Tara did not cheat her triple loop/triple loop as far as I can remember.

Irina's GPF 99-00 looks less cheated.

I had noticed at Worlds 2003 Free Skate (in person) that in Shizuka Arakawa's triple lutz/triple toe/double loop she seemed to skid and stay on the ice by holding the outside edge and letting her body turn for a little while before the loop got off the ground.

Is this how skaters cheat the loop end in combos??? Plusenko doesn't cheat his 4/3/3 or 4/3/2 and neither does Yagudin I think.

Did Ryan Jahnke cheat his 3flip/3loop?

[Isabelle]

I agree with you that it's annoying when people cheat and stuff, but how can someone do an axel when everyone thought they were doing a loop? They take off on different feet!
I'm not sure, but I think Tara's triple loop/triple loop was cheated.

[sorrowfree78]

8O 8O 8O

YOU ARE SOOOO RIGHT, ISABELLE!!


Wait, Irina can't do an axel off of her right foot!

Irina Slutskaya invented a NEW JUMP!!

It is the inside foot forward edge jump!!!!

[sk8ing is lyfe]

its called an inside axel.

[roogu]

All jumps require the body to rotate 180 degrees (or half a rotation, especially egdge jumps) before the skates actually really leave the ice. Thanks to the laws of physics and momentum, it's impossible to generate rotation if some took off completely backwards without the momentum of the hips moving whatsoever.

On loops jumps, the take off edge has to arch around before it takes off .. and by the time it does take off, you'd see the tracing of an actual arch/tick ... it's almost like a mini pivot. The upper body has to go along with it as the jump takes off, so NO, this is NOT a cheat or a "super'cheat. When you mentioned the above skaters (Slut, and Voidy Swan, haha) turning their upper body, that's exactly what they're doing, to get the arch/tick so the jump goes up.

As for the upper body 'rotation' on take offs ..... even if someone does pre rotate their upper body during the take off of a jump .... their lower body still has to complete the full rotations in order to land ... blades don't go sideways remember, so while some skaters "pre rotate" their body going into a jump, in the end, her legs still have to have completed 3 full rotations to land, if she didn't , then she'd be on her butt. While this may not be aesthetically pleasing or even the purest of techniques, she's not cheating the jump. This must be the hundreth time I've posted this explaination, LoL.

A real 'cheat' would be when the blade lands forwards or sideways and actually turns on the ice to complete the rotation ... or in the case of take offs, would be toe axels, where the skater's toe pick turns COMPLETELY forwards and then kicks the landing leg across to complete the 'toe' part of the combination. Lipinski did toe axels even up until 1996 ... but fixed that when she started working with Callaghan.

[sorrowfree78]

I understand the need to turn the body, but what about the position of the skate before lift-off -- , now neglecting what her upper body does, Irina Slutskaya (according to ABC SLOW-MOTION during 2001 Worlds Free Skate) does that arch that you mention, but by BEFORE she leaves the ground, her skate is pointing 180 degrees from where she landed the triple salchow (first jump) in her 3/3/2.

This is even more ovious when they show here triple lutz/triple loop miss. She does two revolutions with this inside axel as her attempted 3loop. Her blade does not leave the ice AT ALL until it's pointed forward (backward being how she lands).

Is this still legal? How much of an arc is a skater allowed?

Thank you for explainging the body rotation and physics.

I still don't get the toe axel!

I don't think Irina does this on her 3sal/2loop or 3lutz/2loop.

[roogu]

What Slutskaya does is acceptable because it's a continuation from the landing of the first jump right to the second jump. FOr her to have done an 'inside axel' off the triple lutz, she would have had to land the lutz, done an actual back outside three turn, then jumped forwards.

But because you need to use the landing of the first jump as your take off edge for the loop, it needs to continue on so the freeleg continues through and up and across to take off for the loop. All this happens in less than a second so sometimes it's hard to catch all the variables all at once.

[Alexeiskate]

Originally posted by sorrowfree78
:roll: :roll: :roll:
BUT, I WAS WATCHING THE 2001 WORLDS on TAPE, and I HAD NO IDEA THAT IRINA DOES a triple salchow/double axel/double toe instead of what we thought was a triple salchow/triple loop/double toe.


It's not possible to do a 3sal-2axel-2toe combination. Even if Irina didn't get off the ice on the loop part of the combo until her body was facing forward it still wouldn't have turned that second jump into an axel. But most skaters do this on the 3loop, especially if the loop is the back end of a combination jump, otherwise, I would be almost impossible to jump straight up on one leg and then do three full revolutions before coming down on one skate.

[duane]

Originally posted by Isabelle
I'm not sure, but I think Tara's triple loop/triple loop was cheated.

tara's 3loop/3loop at the 98 Olympics was totally clean.

[kayskate]

I understand about initiating the rotation and the 3loop is actually not a 2inside axel. However, I would certainly like to see a 2inside axel in competition. I wonder if these skaters can do that. Maybe the turning on the landing edge to initiate rotation for the loop does not translate into an inside axel done on it's own. An isolated double inside axel may be much more difficult than a 3 loop w/ all of that turning on the ice.

BTW, how much does an inside axel turn on the ice to initiate rotation?

Kay

[skatingvision]

wouldn't an inside axel be kind of like a 2 1/2 salchow? Theoretically, this is possible.

[Ellyn]

(for a counterclockwise skater) An inside axel takes off from the right forward inside edge. A salchow takes off from the left back inside edge. So if they're taking off properly from one foot, the inside axel would be nothing like the salchow.

If you want to see a double inside axel, Elvis Stojko did this in his long program at 1993 Worlds. (And I think also at Canadians that year.) However, he did not take off from one foot, the other foot was still on the ice, he took off from a sort of mini-spread eagle position, right inside facing forward and left inside facing backward. So in a sense that was both a double inside axel and a double salchow at the same time.

I'd have to refresh my memory of programs people might have on tape with proper single inside axels if you're looking for examples of what the jump looks like. For those of you who went to practices at Worlds, or other live competitions . . . Plyushenko for one usually uses an inside axel as his first jumping element when he's warming up.

[sorrowfree78]

I am not so alarmed by quarter turn cheats or the turning of the boot as Sarah Hughes would do to make it look like she did 3 full revolutions.

I was concerned about Irina's take off. It looks like what other people have called an inside axel. The illusion sis that she is already in the air when she simply turns her body real quick and leaves the ice on a forward edge. I am not talking about the body rotating before the skate leaves the ice. I am talking about a FORWARD EDGE takeoff! complete and unmistakeable.

For all of you with the ABC telecast from 2001 Worlds Free Skate. The Slow Motion review after Irina's program will demonstrate this on both her loop combos.

It's not a matter of the blade producing an arc and thne the skater leaps up and finishes the jump on a curve away from the first jump. I AM TALKING INSIDE EDGE TAKEOFF.

The TRIPLE SALCHOW/TRIPLE ILLUSION COMBINATION!




8O 8O

[Sparkey]

I'm sorry, duane, but Tara's loop was QUITE cheated, but I think it was much worse at Nationals than at the Oly's. But it was definitedly cheated, with the last 1/2 rotation being done on the ice at nat's.

[icyboid]

Regarding the triple loop in question: was the landing cheated too? (like her first 3lutz-2.25 loop at one of the GPFs)

[Alexeiskate]

Originally posted by sorrowfree78
I am not so alarmed by quarter turn cheats or the turning of the boot as Sarah Hughes would do to make it look like she did 3 full revolutions.

I was concerned about Irina's take off. It looks like what other people have called an inside axel. The illusion sis that she is already in the air when she simply turns her body real quick and leaves the ice on a forward edge. I am not talking about the body rotating before the skate leaves the ice. I am talking about a FORWARD EDGE takeoff! complete and unmistakeable.

For all of you with the ABC telecast from 2001 Worlds Free Skate. The Slow Motion review after Irina's program will demonstrate this on both her loop combos.

It's not a matter of the blade producing an arc and thne the skater leaps up and finishes the jump on a curve away from the first jump. I AM TALKING INSIDE EDGE TAKEOFF.

The TRIPLE SALCHOW/TRIPLE ILLUSION COMBINATION!




8O 8O


I've rewatched the 2001 Worlds, and Irina did a 3sal-3loop-2toe, which was clean, and a 3lutz-3loop in which the loop was under rotated and she fell forward and then stepped right into a 2toe. There was no axel jump of any kind or form whatsoever in that combination. Yes, Irina didn't completely leave the ice on the loop until her body is facing forward every skater doing a 3loop as the second jump of a combination will do that. I haven't seen anyone that doesn't. If you look at Irina's 3sal, her body also didn't completely leave the ice until her upper body was almost completely facing forward. That is the technique for triple jumps.


At the 98 Olympics, Tara's 3lp-3lp was clean. It was at Nationals that she under rotated the second 3lp.

[supersk8er]

Originally posted by Sparkey
I'm sorry, duane, but Tara's loop was QUITE cheated, but I think it was much worse at Nationals than at the Oly's. But it was definitedly cheated, with the last 1/2 rotation being done on the ice at nat's.


Whatever! I don't want to argue meanly here, but Tara's triple loop/triple loop was clean-as-a-whistle at the '98 Olympics! I've watched it in slow motion SO many times to try and figure out how she gets that super quick twitch that she gets...hehe, still can't figure it out...:P

[jwcardinal11]

First off, I want to preface my reply with the fact that this post is NOT to attack anyone's knowledge of figure skating. Please do not respond to this with comments like "You don't know what you're talking about" before you fully absorb and take seriously my post. --

At first look, and without the correct knowledge of jump technique, one might misconstrue the triple loop as a pre-cheated jump (same goes for the sal and the toe). A big reason why the sal, toe, and loop are considered of lower difficulty than the flip and lutz is that they, in all reality, only rotate 2 1/2 revolutions (whereas the flip and lutz are full 3 revolutions, and the axel is a full 3 1/2 revolutions). For the purposes of this post, I will only talk about the loop jump.

The loop jump is an edge jump that starts off from a back outside edge. But the jump does not take off until the edge comes around at least 1/4 rotation and at most 1/2 rotation ON THE ICE. And because of this, loops (and sals) often lose the initial speed that the skater gets prior to the entrance of the jump - and they take a more vertical trajectory than a horizontal trajectory than the toe jumps. So in fact, the skater takes off going "forward" - and thus, a double loop really rotates 1 1/2 times and a triple loop rotates 2 1/2 times. If you don't believe me, please slo-mo any skater's triple loop and you will see that the edge does not take off until he/she comes around.

[becca]

It is correct technique for the skater to turm 1/2 a rotation or almost that much before they leave the ice on all jumps except axel. It is just more obvious on the sal and loop because they are edge jumps (on toe jumps you just pivot on the toe and it is less obvious). If you look at the ice after someone has done a sal or loop (except maybe on sigles) you can actually see what looks like a little check mark where they have turned right before jumping.

[dbny]

Originally posted by sorrowfree78
I still don't get the toe axel!


Picture a toe loop: BO edge, pick in with freeleg, take off and rotate. Now, change the sequence like this: BO edge, pick in with freeleg, rotate 1/2 rev to forward on the toe pick, take off and complete rotation. Because the cheating is in making 1/2 rev on the toepick, the take off is now from forwards instead of backwards, and the rest of the jump is an Axel. A skater cheating a single toe loop in the same way would be doing a toe waltz jump :lol: I've seen plenty of those :roll:

[jwcardinal11]

Well, since we have gotten to the toe-loop. I will summarize more jump techniques. (Again, the same disclaimer from my first post goes ... please read above.)

I will explain each jump based on triples and a counter-clockwise rotation technique (I'm a lefty myself, though).

There is a reason that jumps are ranked in difficulty as they are. The three easiest jumps are the sal, toe, and loop - all of which are done with 2 1/2 revolutions. When properly done, the flip and lutz fully rotate 3 revolutions. And the axel, the hardest jump, rotates 3 1/2 revolutions.

Salchow: the skater enters the jump from a left back inside edge. But the edge comes around 1/2 of the triple rotation on the ice and the free leg (right leg) swings up in order to get the lift on the jump. Thus, the jump only rotates 2 1/2 times in the air.

Toe-loop: the skater picks in with the left toe, and to get the necessary lift, the free leg comes around 1/2 of the triple rotation and lifts the jump - much like a salchow. Let me say also that there are different coaching techniques for this jump - some coaches encourage their skaters to toe in and not let the free leg come around to lift the jump up (from what I hear, that is more of a rollerskating toe-loop). I won't get more into that. In any case, the toe-loop also rotates 2 1/2 times.

The TOE-AXEL does not happen because it rotates 2 1/2 times (that IS proper technique) ... but it happens when the skater does not tap in going backward, rather going FORWARD (see Amber Corwin, one of the few who perform triple toe-axels regularly).

Loop: see my previous post.

The flip and lutz are supposed to rotate all 3 revolutions. Some may debate about the flip, because it is very easy to rotate sooner. But the lutz necessitates 3 revolutions because of the counter-rotation beforehand with the back outside edge. This back outside edge does not allow any pre-rotation unless the jump is flutzed.

[becca]

I disagree that it is not possible to pre-rotate the lutz without flutzing. I have learned both on flip and lutz to pivot on the toe-pick before leaving the ice. I flutz occurs when a skater flips to their inside edge before or while picking (not after the toe is in the ice). Even skaters with a true lutz (volchova for example) pivot on their toe before taking off.

[jwcardinal11]

The proper technique of any toe jump (toe, flip, lutz) is to tap with whichever toepick is necessary for the jump. This is not to "pivot." In order to get the lift necessary for a triple jump (this is talking about skaters in general ... I realize there are some small jumpers out there who don't lift and just rotate like crazy), the toepick must TAP at the exact same time to create the power from an elastic collision as the release of the potential energy from the bent knee. Any pivot on the part of the toepick will make the collision of the toepick with the ice much more inelastic, thus compromising the lift of the jump.

Also, please reference the two clean triple lutzes that Volchkova does at Worlds in slow motion. The tap of her right toepick is completely clean, no pivot at all.

[AshBugg44]

Originally posted by supersk8er
Whatever! I don't want to argue meanly here, but Tara's triple loop/triple loop was clean-as-a-whistle at the '98 Olympics! I've watched it in slow motion SO many times to try and figure out how she gets that super quick twitch that she gets...hehe, still can't figure it out...:P

I'm in agreement here!

[roogu]

Originally posted by jwcardinal11


Also, please reference the two clean triple lutzes that Volchkova does at Worlds in slow motion. The tap of her right toepick is completely clean, no pivot at all.

Didn't she double the last one?

[jwcardinal11]

Didn't she double the last one?

One in the short, one in the long.

[loveskating]

Originally posted by jwcardinal11
The loop jump is an edge jump that starts off from a back outside edge. But the jump does not take off until the edge comes around at least 1/4 rotation and at most 1/2 rotation ON THE ICE. And because of this, loops (and sals) often lose the initial speed that the skater gets prior to the entrance of the jump - and they take a more vertical trajectory than a horizontal trajectory than the toe jumps. So in fact, the skater takes off going "forward" - and thus, a double loop really rotates 1 1/2 times and a triple loop rotates 2 1/2 times. If you don't believe me, please slo-mo any skater's triple loop and you will see that the edge does not take off until he/she comes around.

Well, I don't normally do this, but I totally agree...and bravo!