A Letter from Phyllis

[sonora]

http://www.usfsa.org/news/2002-03/phyllis-letter.htm

[Spinner]

Moving this to 'Skating News'.

Very interesting...

[maruko]

It is indeed sad news that Phyllas Howard was attacked personally and was forced(in a way) to step down just because she made the right decision by not putting US eligible skaters at risk of losing eligibility and not endoring an organization like WSF whose impartiality is a big question.

[The Athletes]

.

[Mazurka Girl]

Originally posted by The Athletes
As she said – skaters “deserve a strong federation that can provide the support, staunch advocacy and opportunities they deserve.” Is there anyone who can honestly say that the USFSA has done all in its power to be a strong federation ensuring that athletes are treated fairly?

This view is basically recycled every few years & applied to whomever is the existing President along with the governing officers. It's the nature of the organization. I sure wouldn't want to be the USFSA President & can't blame her for moving on.

[sonora]

It took a great deal of courage for Ron Pfenning and Jon Jackson to take this stand. I admire and honor them for that, and I only hope the rest of us can have the courage of our convictions and do the right thing.

Th easy way is to knuckle under, go with the flow, keep the status quo, not rock the boat.

You've heard all the cliches.

I never thought I would agree with Christine Brennan much, but she was right when she said there is no figure skating without television and there is no television without the American women.

But even if we were not the most powerful nation in the world, and in figure skating, would we not still be morally bound to do the right thing? And how can the right thing be supporting an organization like the ISU, which quells dissent by expulsion?

[speedy]

Why continue to work from within an organization as hypocritical and impotent as the ISU? The ISU has become the equivalent of the United Nations. :roll: It's time to move on, whether Phyllis likes it or not...if she wants to step aside, fine. Why do I get the feeling that the bureaucrats in the USFSA have more than the well-being of the skaters in mind when they come out with this kind of stance that basically says, "yes the ISU is a joke, so let's keep it status quo." Huh? It's not as if our skaters, or any future WSF skaters, will be prevented from competing and furthering their careers without the ridiculous ISU overseeing the world of figure skating...on the contrary, they'll be much BETTER OFF. I too applaud Pfenning and Jackson and Stapleford, et. al, for having the guts to stand up and actually DO something instead of whining about what might happen if the ISU is actually finally rendered powerless. And this whole spiel about the WSF having bad timing about announcing their plans during Worlds...why would they NOT announce it then when the whole world of figure skating is watching? I guess the USFSA would rather they had announced it in July when ABC wasn't around and it would have been buried on page 18 of the Sports pages. :roll:

[loveskating]

I think it is sad too...going on the personal attack is always a rather low down vicious means of changing the subject, in any case.

Tactically, I think she is right, however...perhaps by not seeking re-election, she can get the discussion back on the really important issues to the skaters and their public? At the same time, the fact she has to employ this tactic shows how deeply divided the USFSA is, and how much strength the WSF has within it.

Whomever said that everyone would go along with the USA is, I think, quite mistaken...we just witnessed where the entire world is not any longer willing to go along with the USA (or be bribed by it) on far more important issues than figure skating.

Should this outfit succeed in getting the USFSA to go with them, I believe that others will not go along! People need to understand that during the Cold War, everyone went along with the US because of the far greater threat of the Soviet Union, which would have been delighted to take them ALL out if it could have. That threat no longer exists, and along with it, the "discipline" it created is gone as well.

And in any case, if the Russian media had humiliated, say, Michelle Kwan, the way the U.S. press humiliated B&S, would YOU want to be in a federation headed by those very people -- Pfenning, Jackson, Stapleford, etc. who did that to your skaters? Not in a million years. If Bourne & Kratz were facing federal criminal charges in a US court, as the French ice dancers are, would YOU even imagine being in a federation headed by the very people who accused you -- Pfenning, Jackson and Stapleford -- of collusion to enable the Russians B&S to win?

[sonora]

First, Phyllis Howard was not "personally" attacked. She was called to account for actions as president, which is appropriate. She is withdrawing from running for reelection becuase she feels she can't win, and the powers that be are trying to put in a compromise candidate.

I am unaware of the US media "attacking" B&S.

Russian skaters don't even train in Russia any more. Most of them train over here.

If nothing else had happened, just the fact that Cinquanta was able to remove Ron Pfenning as referee from the Ladies' event at Worlds as retaliation for his having spoken up about the legal and logistical problems with the judging method would make the ISU unworthy.

Our sport is degenerating to the level of the World Wrestling Federation. We need to fix it now, or risk losing all credibility.

[vesperholly]

OT for a moment: I believe a lot of the rhetoric during Pairsgate was that the athletes are not to blame and we should treat them fairly and with respect. I think that whatever feelings of unfairness B&S had was probably insecurity about their reception at the exhibition and around town. They seemed shy and cautious, but to my recollection they were warmly received.

Jocelyn

[loveskating]

Originally posted by sonora
First, Phyllis Howard was not "personally" attacked. She was called to account for actions as president, which is appropriate. She is withdrawing from running for reelection becuase she feels she can't win, and the powers that be are trying to put in a compromise candidate.

Well, in her article, she said she was personally attacked...those were her exact words...I wasn't there, I have no idea, but I certainly believe her! I admired her comments regarding the efforts of the WSF to focus Worlds on itself rather than attention being focused on the SKATERS at THIS worlds!

I am unaware of the US media "attacking" B&S. .

You must be kidding? On the face of it, a claim that you won gold due to a fix is an outright humiliation, never mind the outrageous things the full media said about B&S personally and their skating until the decision as to the second gold medal was made! No one said that B&S were complicit in the claimed fix, but everyone in the media claimed that they were the beneficiaries of a fix...which is utterly humiliating!

If nothing else had happened, just the fact that Cinquanta was able to remove Ron Pfenning as referee from the Ladies' event at Worlds as retaliation for his having spoken up about the legal and logistical problems with the judging method would make the ISU unworthy..

According to some, as reported in the media, that specific was set up by Pfenning himself, so he could launch WSF, and I don't doubt it.

Our sport is degenerating to the level of the World Wrestling Federation. We need to fix it now, or risk losing all credibility.

I agree, but as I've said, I don't think the WSF can solve the problems, to the contrary.

I'd prefer that Cinquanta, whom I do not dislike, rather to the contrary, make a huge personal sacrifice and give the presidency of the ISU to David Dore, thus saving this old and great federation and not risking what I believe is the inevitability of two federations, splitting international skating down the middle.

As for some of these other issues, I want a WRITTEN code of behavior, and then a DUE PROCESS scheme for those accused of any corrupt behavior which requires HARD EVIDENCE.

It would also be great if the ISU demanded contractually that any network cannot slander, harrass, vilify or otherwise attack in any manner any of its skaters, judges or administration without the express consent of the ISU...

[Mazurka Girl]

Originally posted by sonora
If nothing else had happened, just the fact that Cinquanta was able to remove Ron Pfenning as referee from the Ladies' event at Worlds as retaliation for his having spoken up about the legal and logistical problems with the judging method would make the ISU unworthy.
How timely for him to have his brand new WSF all ready to roll out right when this happened! The whole thing could have been retaliation by Cinquanta, or it could have been strategy by Pfenning, do you really know? I no longer felt bad for him losing his officiating role at Worlds after I heard the extra little details as they emerged during the week about the letter writing & WSF. :roll:

[Carola5501]

I am sorry, Phyllis needs to go.

The USFSA has NOT protected the interests of our skaters and/or thier sponsors. It is that simple. Phyllis does NOT work for the ISU. The ISU continued to work in secrecy and by "going along" the USFSA is appearing to endorse that as acceptable practice. There is NO excuse for judges convicted of cheating EVER being allowed back on a judging panel and we should refuse to participate in a program that allows that.

Also, I overheard a prominet member of the WSF group telling someone that they purposly did their announcement EARLY in the week to lessen the impact on Worlds. They knew it was not always the best decision, but they did need the media and the media was there!

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by loveskating

According to some, as reported in the media, that specific was set up by Pfenning himself, so he could launch WSF, and I don't doubt it.

Pfenning can't control the actions of the ISU. All he did was simply to make a stand, and that stand was the reason the ISU told him to walk. At least he (and the other WSF members) had the guts to tell the ISU off, and they have my respect for that.

give the presidency of the ISU to David Dore

Dore? You've got to be kidding if you have any faith that Dore is going to be any better. Read some of the topics here... there are members of Skate Canada on the boards that question Dore. If they have reason to suspect him, it says quite a bit to me. It seems Dore's vice presidency was bought too - so you want us to give it to a guy who got into power through scheming at the upper echelons of Skate Canada?

As for some of these other issues, I want a WRITTEN code of behavior, and then a DUE PROCESS scheme for those accused of any corrupt behavior which requires HARD EVIDENCE.

Don Jackson is a practicing lawyer, and the WSF has a constitution, and I see more than generous due process in their constitution. I'm sure they will continue to develop more specifics in the course of time - but that they already have adopted a principle of zero tolerance is a step in the right direction.

It would also be great if the ISU demanded contractually that any network cannot slander, harrass, vilify or otherwise attack in any manner any of its skaters, judges or administration without the express consent of the ISU...

Sweeping the dirt under the rug ISU style is that what some of us want? :roll:

[Blue Ridge]

Adrian, I am sure I am misreading you, but your comment on loveskating's assertion of the need for due process seems to be saying you consider due process for those accused of cheating to be "sweeping the dirt under the rug."

[sonora]

Were it not for Ron Pfenning, the attempted fix of the Pairs competition at last year's Olympics would not have come to light.

[adrianchew]

Blue Ridge - sorry, should have quoted better, its a bit clearer now. ;)

[Blue Ridge]

Yes it is, but now it sounds like you are okay with slandering, harassing and vilifying, ...not trying to be difficult, but you don't mean that you think it is a good thing for a network to slander, harass, or vilify judges or officials?

[ellen]

Seriously, does anyone think that Cinquanta would bow out gracefully and hand the presidency to someone else? Someone mentioned Dore. Excuse me, but he's about as bad as what we have. After the 98 Oly., when the Canadian judge, Jean Senft, had a tape of the results before the event was skated, Dore and Skate Canada did nothing to support her. And at the 2002 ISU Congress, after various nefarios dealings by Canada, Dore gets elected and says that he didn't know that he was running until the night before. Does anyone believe that?

The USFSA must elect a strong president and then move to the WSF. PERIOD. It's our only hope. Does anyone really believe that Cinquanta will concede anything to the athletes or the various governing groups?

[Blue Ridge]

Originally posted by ellen


The USFSA must elect a strong president and then move to the WSF. PERIOD.

That would mean the end of truly international figure skating competitions for some time into the future, unless you really believe that all Federations including Russia, would immediately follow suit simply because of the USFSA's move. Why do people think that would be a good thing?

[sonora]

Originally posted by ellen


The USFSA must elect a strong president and then move to the WSF. [/B]

Blue Ridge, whether or not the other federations would follow us if we do the above doesn't matter. We need to do it because it is the right thing to do.

Ethically. Morally.

The sport will not be worth participating in if we don't.

Will it take a few years for things to shake out? Yes, probably. But as far as medal contending skaters being involved, I'd be more worried about getting the Chinese and the Japanese to come along than the Russians.

[Blue Ridge]

I think that is an amazing attitude. I would be extremely disappointed if I could not see a Worlds like the one we just had with all the best skaters in the world in one competition. I hope that never comes to pass.

As for Russians, since there a quite a few Russians who are among the best skaters in the world, I cannot understand why any figure skating fan would not care if they saw them.

[ellen]

Everyone wants to see ALL the various nationalities annually at a World's Championship. When the USFSA decides to drop out of the ISU in favor of the WSF, there may be a period of time when that will not be so. And maybe not. The big TV and sponsor money are in the USA. Just how long will the USA networks televise skating with no USA participants? The betting shop is open.

What everyone is tired of is Cinquanta's autocratic rule. If he were a benelovent dictator, we might be able to live with him. But he's not. Just how long will it take the IOC to realize that Cinquanta's new scoring methods are NOT athlete and fan friendly? The athletes should be the primary focus, but they are not. Secret judging and anonymity are numero uno, and the corrupt judges go on and on and ...

[Blue Ridge]

Originally posted by ellen
The big TV and sponsor money are in the USA. Just how long will the USA networks televise skating with no USA participants?

I would assume they would not televise competitions at all in which no U.S. skaters were participating, that is why we wouldn't see many of the worlds best skaters here in the U.S. competiting against our best skaters.

And presumably we would have to wait until everyone in the world knuckles under to U.S. domination before we would see them again. Not a good solution in my book.

[Lee]

Originally posted by adrianchew
Dore? You've got to be kidding if you have any faith that Dore is going to be any better. Read some of the topics here... there are members of Skate Canada on the boards that question Dore. If they have reason to suspect him, it says quite a bit to me. It seems Dore's vice presidency was bought too - so you want us to give it to a guy who got into power through scheming at the upper echelons of Skate Canada? There are also members on the board (and members of Skate Canada, and members who have attended Annual Meetings and taken part in the voting procedures at the club, section and national level) who do NOT believe Dore got into power in the ISU by scheming through the upper echelons. There are also people on the boards who do not believe every bit of whining and sniveling Bev Smith reports from those who were legitimately voted out of their ISU positions. There are those on the boards who have talked to people who were IN Kyoto and know that Dore's VP position was NOT bought by promising to vote for Russia's Lakernik. There are those on the boards who have had this information confirmed by others (not Canadians). There are those on the boards who believe Dore and his excellent record in helping Skate Canada become one of the most successful sports federations in the world can address many of the issues bogging down the ISU. There are those on the boards who find it useless to try to discuss rationally anything that has anything to do with the ISU or Skate Canada because others are so determined to view the (skating) world with corrupted blinders.

I am not saying all is perfectly rosy in the ISU. There are things needing to be addressed, and these things are being addressed. Read the ISU communications on their website. You'll find some valuable information there.

What I see here is a great deal of slander of people who have put many years of service into the sport of skating out of a love of the sport of skating. So far, I have yet to see any proof from any sources I count as credible that there were *dirty dealings* in Kyoto or that people had anything but the best interests of the sport in mind. Some people may have been working from a position of *ignorance* or lack of knowledge, but most people do not get into this just because they want to get dumped on by those who have no clue of what really goes on.

[adrianchew]

There will always be a portion willing to believe and go along with the game - that comes as no surprise. And it really gives the rest of the world even less reason to trust Skate Canada. :roll:

[PatC]

Have you paid dues to SC? Have you spent time in the skating rink tieing laces? Going to board meetings to decide the little but very important stuff that really is skating?

Top profile skaters are the visible part of these organizations, but it is not their aim. SC's first goal is a learn to skate program. And they do it damn well, as most of the Canadian population can skate.

High level skating is not the be all and end all of SC or the USFSA. They exist for their skaters, all of them. Sometimes as fans we get carried away thinking it's only the international competitive level skaters are the ones that count. They aren't. They start somewhere too. Get a clue........and I'm po'd that you think you have the right to critisize me, and people I know who have spent a lot of time in these organizations.

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by PatC

Get a clue........and I'm po'd that you think you have the right to critisize me, and people I know who have spent a lot of time in these organizations.

And you expect the rest of the world to go along with Skate Canada?

Let's hope the WSF gets clout, and that Skate Canada is slow to react and gets left behind in the dust cloud that builds up. :twisted:

The interests of all your skaters will then be affected (those little ones do have dreams too, ya know?). Its too bad the leadership seems to be more concerned over their own jockeying for power within the ISU.

And this is a discussion board - people are here to talk. :roll:

[PatC]

No I expect the world to do the best thing for what is best for all the skaters, not just a chosen few.

AC:
Let's hope the WSF gets clout, and that Skate Canada is slow to react and gets left behind in the dust cloud that builds up.

And just why would you want that to happen? What is your problem with SC? What is your axe to grind? I want to hear a personal story here AC, not one of these I heard at the rink jobs. What have they done to you personally? Let's hear it.

And I've seen those little ones, I have my own, I know what kind of dreams these kids have. And since when is SC the only ones guilty of power brokering? USFSA lily white? The Russians? The French?
And just why do you think they're the only ones that should be tarred with a brush? And who do you think gets to wield it? No one that's who. The WSF and it's members aren't bloody lily white either.

AC: This is a discussion group........yada yada..

But are they free to talk?


I'm outta here.....

[Mazurka Girl]

Originally posted by Lee
There are also people on the boards who do not believe every bit of whining and sniveling Bev Smith reports from those who were legitimately voted out of their ISU positions.

What I see here is a great deal of slander of people who have put many years of service into the sport of skating out of a love of the sport of skating.
So true Lee!! And let's not forget the whining & sniveling in her columns & books regarding other topics too!

Slander is putting it lightly. A lot of people who only recently started attending competitions or viewing skating have no idea how much actual time & manpower it takes to run programs & events.

Portraying ISU officials as all dark force evil doers & WSF officials as all brightness & light & integrity doesn't add up when you read all about it & pay attention to the details. Might make a good plot for a fantasy movie though.

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by Mazurka Girl

Slander is putting it lightly. A lot of people who only recently started attending competitions or viewing skating have no idea how much actual time & manpower it takes to run programs & events.

So true - it does take a ton of effort, and quite a lot of that comes from volunteers. And while many of these officials are volunteers too - that doesn't equate them to saints - no one in the WSF is getting paid either. Politicians often put in lots of money into campaigns to get into office where they don't get paid a lot - there is such a thing as power struggles.

Anyone who believes all is perfect in any organization is rather deluded. The WSF has a set of principles, published, that everyone can decide if they think is good or bad. Skate Canada, the ISU and others have chosen not to endorse this set of principles. Skate Canada has constantly defended the need of the interim judging system - a system that does not promote accountability of the judges.

What the WSF stands for at the very least is a step in the right direction. Do I believe everyone there do not have personal agendas of their own? - no - but I do believe they do have the greater interest of the sport at heart, and I do believe the actions of the ISU and Skate Canada - from the interim judging to the new system that made the rulebooks without the proper due process, to be steps in the wrong direction.

If they're both evil as you put it - the WSF certainly is much lesser the evil of the two sides. ;)

People can read between the lines and make their own conclusions.

[Mazurka Girl]

Originally posted by adrianchew
If they're both evil as you put it - the WSF certainly is much lesser the evil of the two sides. ;)
That is not what I said. Please not what I actually said before indicating something is "as I put it." Sorry but I don't like it when people misquote me in order to make their point.

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by Mazurka Girl

That is not what I said. Please not what I actually said before indicating something is "as I put it." Sorry but I don't like it when people misquote me in order to make their point.

Care to enlighten us in no uncertain terms which side you think is good, which side you think is evil, and which side you think is neither? That might help - you weren't exactly too specific in what you said. ;)

[loveskating]

Of course, rather than see the ISU destroyed and skaters harmed, Cinquanta would hand over leadership to Dore...or perhaps the ISU would split itself into much more clear figure skating and speed skating sections, as well! Let them be "co-presidents", I wouldn't mind.

It would be far better for someone like Dore to head (or co-head) the ISU...he is neither Russian nor American, can be fair to both, and he has certainly proved on the ground that he is EXTREMELY competent...while those who apparently make up the core leadership of the WSF and who have apparently dominated skating in the US for the same period of time as Dore did such excellent work in Canada have driven skating here right into the ground economically (and don't say things are economically better in Canada, because they are not...if anything they are far worse)!

I don't normally think in terms of "good and evil"... in fact, I view the very concept as one which avoids, and is designed to avoid, taking a look at the tough issues and choices actually facing people. Deamonizing people offers no practical solution whatsoever, it usually simply changes personnel, and leaves the actual objective problems out of the discussion...and frankly, even Jesus Christ never, ever did it, to the contrary, and HE had conversations with the real evil!

But I must say, it is so far quite clear that it is Phyllis who is behaving in a mature, thoughtful and caring manner, including showing a willingness to put her personal goals aside for the sake of the skaters!

What some of you seem to believe are her "crimes" I find admirable...she did not allow the WSF to take over Worlds to the disadvantave of the SKATERS and the public who wanted to see the skaters...and for this she is to be "overthrown"? Sorry, but to me, that already speaks volumes about what the WSF is actually about, on the ground... if you so much as disagree with them on ANYTHING, even a MERE tactical issue such as that, out you go. That is simply a very bad, polarizing and devisive way to work and shows a terrible immaturity, if not something worse.

[Lee]

Actually, loveskating, in terms of real growth, Canada's economy has been stronger than the US economy since last fall -- just a slight correction, thanks.

[Excidra]

I believe that WSF only has the north-American skaters interests at heart. I have been told as of right now that the WSF consists of north-Americans. If that is the case, how could they(WSF) expect to have Russian,French,Chinese and all the other federations to sign with them?

I really believe that the ISU is ready to clean up it's act, just got to give them some time. Speedy felt the hit and I think he is about to change for the better.
Why divide figure skating. It's nice to see an American/Russian/Japanese and other all competing against one another. How would everyone else feel if only the American girls were competing against each other.

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by Excidra

I believe that WSF only has the north-American skaters interests at heart. I have been told as of right now that the WSF consists of north-Americans. If that is the case, how could they(WSF) expect to have Russian,French,Chinese and all the other federations to sign with them?

Excidra - its a common misconception about the WSF, you were told wrongly somehow. You can view all the individuals involved...

http://www.worldskating.org/news/bios.shtml

They have a smattering of countries already involved in the planning committee, including Italy, Canada, Great Britain, Hungary, Sweden and Australia.

The supporting atheletes include those from Canada, Lithuania and Germany.

I'm sure you'll see the list grow, but the smaller federations would really have more to lose if they thought the WSF was only out for the interests of North-Americans. I expect amongst major federations, you'll likely see Japan being the next one to support the WSF, and Canada and Russian federations are likely to be amongst the last to get involved, if they ever do.

The ISU had a chance to clean up their act - for many years now - the time has come, there is a need for this to happen. How much longer do they expect people to wait? Another 50 years? :roll:

[memememe76]

I didn't know Drobiasko and Vanagas are North American.

[Excidra]

Originally posted by memememe76
I didn't know Drobiasko and Vanagas are North American.

oh you didn't know, where have you been?

There are some honest people in the ISU and i'm willing to believe that those honest few will come to power soon. Can we honestly say that everyone in the WSF are all honest and willing to put all skaters of all nationalities first and foremost?

[valuvsmk]

Originally posted by Excidra

There are some honest people in the ISU and i'm willing to believe that those honest few will come to power soon. Can we honestly say that everyone in the WSF are all honest and willing to put all skaters of all nationalities first and foremost? [/B]

Excidra, are there specific events or statements you know about that lead you to believe that the "honest few" people in the ISU will come to power soon? And - not trying to argue at all, but genuinely curious - whom do you classify as the "honest few" (as opposed to the "dishonest many" as a corollary)?

Since you asked, I don't believe EVERYONE in any organization is all honest - but I don't have any reason to believe anyone named so far in the WSF whose names I have seen isn't willing to act as you stated in your question regarding skaters. I certainly can't say that about many (too many, in fact) ISU officials I know about. (JMHO)

You did ask, after all. ;)

[bleu]

Originally posted by Excidra
oh you didn't know, where have you been?

There are some honest people in the ISU and i'm willing to believe that those honest few will come to power soon. Can we honestly say that everyone in the WSF are all honest and willing to put all skaters of all nationalities first and foremost?

the clock is ticking...

has been ticking for a long time...

yet none of these "honest people" thought of doing something within the system BEFORE the SLC 2002 scandal. So much for being an honest member. Perhaps they should have thought of "thinking outside the box" . Sorry, a little pun was intended here.


which leads me to think:

1. if one can't do something meaningful while within the ISU then maybe just maybe one can do something meaningful outside the ISU.(re: one probable reason for why the WSF was formed)
2. why are some people upset at the WSF?. what has this 1 month old organization done lately to acquire such a bad image. There is nothing much about the WSF actions that indicates it is dishonest. Proposing to secede from another organization and stating what the organization would like to offer(i.e. lifetime bans etc) does not mean we should doubt it. Wait until its judges start tapping toes while judging etc... then and only then can we start talking about dishonesty.
3. the WSF is perceived as a "threat" to the ISU. Here is another organization entering the ISU turf. Well, I hate to say this, but a little competition is always good for the consumer, or in our case, the skater and ultimately the skating fan. Monopolies are good but not all the time. Sometimes, they do things that are not necessary in the best interest of the consumer and get away with it because they are the only player in the field or industry. Come to think of it, the ISU is a monopoly in skating. Isn't it? :idea: are we suprised by some of its actions in the past...But now, we are going to have two players. IMO, a little competition is just what we need to make the ISU wake up and get its act together.
4. speaking of dishonest members, if there are dishonest members in BOTH the ISU and the WSF, which ones would you side with? The ones who sat on their hands throughout those questionable events in the last 50 years or the one who decided to be proactive and break away? Me thinks the later are better. At least they are doing something...

[Mazurka Girl]

Originally posted by adrianchew
Care to enlighten us in no uncertain terms which side you think is good, which side you think is evil, and which side you think is neither? That might help - you weren't exactly too specific in what you said. ;)
There are countless problems & flaws in both organizations which should be pointed out at every chance in order to demand accountability & the best for skating.

I :?? at some of the comments here because some of them seem to be from people who have no idea what Phyllis Howard has even done during her years of service to the USFSA, yet they are the first in line to criticize. And to whoever insisted she wasn't being personally attacked, I guess you haven't read some of the names she's been called on message boards recently.

[loveskating]

Originally posted by Lee
Actually, loveskating, in terms of real growth, Canada's economy has been stronger than the US economy since last fall -- just a slight correction, thanks.

True, but look at the currency exchange and overall GNP and productivity to see the overall difference...

[loveskating]

Originally posted by adrianchew
I'm sure you'll see the list grow, but the smaller federations would really have more to lose if they thought the WSF was only out for the interests of North-Americans. I expect amongst major federations, you'll likely see Japan being the next one to support the WSF, and Canada and Russian federations are likely to be amongst the last to get involved, if they ever do.

The casualness with which you say that which I have bolded above bothers me so greatly...surely, hurting the actual skaters for Canada and Russia, not to mention the public who wishes to see them skate, is of more consequence? For me, upholding and protecting ALL the skaters is definiitive...and it would seem that for Phyllis it is also definitive?

Additionally, the WSF claims a corruption which simply does not address just how it is possible that the very SAME ISU whose judges have given Americans like Michelle Kwan, Todd Eldredge, Mike Weiss, Tim Goeble, Sarah Hughes, Tara Lipinski, Sasha Cohen, A.P. McDonaugh (3rd at Skate America 2002) (leaving aside all the Junior Worlds) etc. etc. so much metal can at the very same time be so very "corrupt" viz other decisions! How does one make ANY sense of that? I cannot.

It seems to me that instead of gathering ALL the facts, and instead of promoting a discussion of ALL the facts (democracy 101) you all present and seem to allow discussion ONLY those facts which seem to support your view...and so I have to wonder what your agenda actually is!

And this leaves out all issues of legal contracts and jurisdiction for contests of legal contracts!!! Do any of you have ANY idea what a mess that would be, and how many skaters would be harmed? Do you know how long it takes to get such cases through a court? Years and years, in most instances!

[sonora]

Originally posted by Mazurka Girl
[. And to whoever insisted she wasn't being personally attacked, I guess you haven't read some of the names she's been called on message boards recently. [/B]

Phyllis is worried that she is being called names on meassge boards? Anyone leading a large organization that is in the public spotlight such as the USFSA had better be able to ignore message boards or they don't belong in the job.

Show me where Jon Jackson has personally attacked her. Not criticized her actions, which he has the right to do, but personally attacked. I am sure neither Jackson nor Pfenning has called Phyllis names.

Phyllis was thrust into the job of USFSA president with little preparation, due to the untimely and tragic illness of Jimmy Disbrow. I am sure I am not the only person who believes Jimmy's leadership would have made a huge difference in the USFSA.

Phyllis has failed to rise to the job, and as shown in the pics of her partying with Cinquanta at Worlds, is more concerned with her perks and position in the International judging community than she is with the integrity of said judging.

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by loveskating

The casualness with which you say that which I have bolded above bothers me so greatly...surely, hurting the actual skaters for Canada and Russia, not to mention the public who wishes to see them skate, is of more consequence? For me, upholding and protecting ALL the skaters is definiitive...and it would seem that for Phyllis it is also definitive?

If the skaters in Canada and Russia are hurt, and the public too - this will likely happen as a result of the actions of those federations. The viewing public to me is the least important aspect - accountability and integrity in the sport is far more paramount to the interests of all skaters from all nations.

You cannot protect the interest of skaters by allowing them to be subject to a system where judges can cheat and go unnoticed, hidden away behind computer selected marks. This is not protecting anyone but the judges and officials who have been caught in the past cheating and colluding to fix the results of competitions.

Additionally, the WSF claims a corruption which simply does not address just how it is possible that the very SAME ISU whose judges have given Americans like Michelle Kwan, Todd Eldredge, Mike Weiss, Tim Goeble, Sarah Hughes, Tara Lipinski, Sasha Cohen, A.P. McDonaugh (3rd at Skate America 2002) (leaving aside all the Junior Worlds) etc. etc. so much metal can at the very same time be so very "corrupt" viz other decisions! How does one make ANY sense of that? I cannot.

WSF claims of corruption? You better go back and re-read what the WSF has said.

What the ISU has not addressed is pretty clear. Judges have been caught cheating. Those judges are still judging today. Judges and officials have spoken against cheating. Those judges and officials are being thrown out of the ISU system.

The number of medals any one country wins does not address the *FACT* that cheating has occured, and gone without much more than a mere slap on the wrist, while those who talked about the cheating were summarily pushed out of judging.

It seems to me that instead of gathering ALL the facts, and instead of promoting a discussion of ALL the facts (democracy 101) you all present and seem to allow discussion ONLY those facts which seem to support your view...and so I have to wonder what your agenda actually is!

It seems to me you have your facts rather mixed up. :roll:

And this leaves out all issues of legal contracts and jurisdiction for contests of legal contracts!!! Do any of you have ANY idea what a mess that would be, and how many skaters would be harmed? Do you know how long it takes to get such cases through a court? Years and years, in most instances!

Do you believe change can happen without any cost? I find the apathy amongst those who would rather try and hide the problems, rather than fix it - to be very sickening. :evil:

You're not protecting the skaters - you're only allowing them to be subject to further questionable judging in the future, while hoping that it might not happen. :roll:

[Mazurka Girl]

Originally posted by sonora
Phyllis is worried that she is being called names on meassge boards?

I did not say Phyllis was worried that she is being called names on message boards. It was MY OWN observation. Is misquoting people at skatingforums becoming standard operating procedure in order to make a point? If so, it's really common.
Phyllis has failed to rise to the job, and as shown in the pics of her partying with Cinquanta at Worlds, is more concerned with her perks and position in the International judging community than she is with the integrity of said judging.
Partying aside, a lot of USFSA members feel Pfenning & Jackson gave a real "slap heard 'round the Worlds" to the skaters as well as the second largest USFSA contingent in Washington, DC by rolling out their new federation when they knew the LOC already had their hands full holding Worlds during a time of war for the U.S. Even Cinquanta held his tongue until the following week.

Like I said previously, there are problems on all sides. And it seems like there are plenty of ego problems to go around for all of them. As a USFSA member, I wonder whether they have my best interests at heart when they make such decisions & I hope others will question it too.

[sonora]

I quoted you exactly Mazurka girl. You are the one who paraphrased, which is perhaps the root of the problem. Next time quote and attribute exactly, and then your meaning will not be misunderstood.

[Mazurka Girl]

Originally posted by sonora
Next time quote and attribute exactly, and then your meaning will not be misunderstood.
When trolls like The Athletes show up on message boards with lengthy first time posts which they go back & delete 2 days later, it is kind of difficult to remember exactly what they said to attribute specific comments. But next time I'll check for some hidden superpowers to get the job done. In the meantime, thanks for your understanding & as I previously noted, I did not say Phyllis Howard was worried she is being called names on message boards. I only observed it has been happening.

[WeBeEducated]

I am in agreement with the post by speedy and carola.
I also think drastic measures need to be taken at home and abroad, including better/stronger athlete representation on the USFSA governing board, and a complete break with the ISU.
I support the new organization.
Many more years of ineffective "sanctions" against corruption in the ISU system just doesnt cut it anymore.
There is a slump in skating participation right now, as well as fan base. There really is just so much people are willing to put up with before they lose interest in what is only marginally considered a sport.

[LovesSk8ting]

Here! Here!.... WeBeEducated, and Speedy..... and Carola! I'm in total agreement with you! It's not surprising that Mrs. Howard is taking this criticism personally. By taking it personally, she can't reach out to the skaters. By taking it personally, she can't show compassion for the skaters.

It would be helpful if Mrs. Howard would state the facts -- (not her opinion) -- regarding the rules. At any time, the I.O.C. can recognize another (WSF) international federation; therefore, skaters and officials would have their eligibility ensured. Also, there will be no T.V. contract violation because there will be no T.V. contract by 2004.

Hopefully, the delegates will vote for a new president who will not contribute to poor judging. The WSF is the first sign of civilization since the ISU's moral mirror was shattered!