Qu. re: rules about jumps

[icenut84]

I know about the Zayak rule - that you can't repeat a jump without it being in combination, and that you can only repeat two jumps. I have a question though - does this rule only refer to quads and triples, or does it include doubles aswell? I ask because sometimes it seems like skaters break the rule by having two doubles the same, as well as their other two repeated triples (or quads). An example - Yoshie Onda did three double axels in her Worlds LP IIRC, and I don't think any were in combination. Also, didn't Michelle do something like that? I'd have to check, but am I right in thinking that she did a triple lutz-double toe, second triple lutz, and a triple toe-double toe, second triple toe? That would mean that she repeated three jumps (3lutz, 3toe and 2toe).

Second question - is there any rule about having more than two jumps the same in a combination? I mean if skaters do a combo of three jumps. Consider - Plushenko and Yags both added a double onto their quad toe-triple toe combos, but instead of doing a double toe, they both went for the double loop. When Plushenko made the third jump a triple, it was again a loop (when he could have done quad toe-triple toe-triple toe). In the 2001 Worlds gala, Plushenko did a triple toe-triple toe-triple toe combo = would this be allowed in competition? Also, if Tara Lipinski had added a double onto the end of her triple loop-triple loop combo, would it have been a double loop or would she have had to make it a double toe?

Awaiting enlightening... :)

[Elsy2]

Your questions are making my head hurt this morning :frus: (Need more coffee....) Since I have my trusty USFSA rulebook out, I'll quote you a few things from it, and hopefully you can take it from there...

SSR 4.00 Free Skating for Singles
SSR 4.05 Senior - A well balanced senior program must contain:

A. Jumps: Skaters may include as many double jumps as they desire. For triple and higher jumps, only two different types of jump (e.g. flip) may be attempted more than once each. These two may be attempted only twice each, once as a solo jump and once in a jump combination or a jump sequence (number of jumps in sequence is otherwise unlimited).

B. Jump Combination: At least one jump combination or sequence of jumps (number of jumps to be included is free) but not more than three in total. Nevertheless, additional jump sequences which contain jumps of not more than one (1) revolution performed as part of connecting footwork preceding double or triple jumps are permitted.

Also under SSR 4.04 General remarks about singles free skating elements.

A. Jumps: All triple and quadruple jumps may be executed either as individual jumps, jump sequences or jump combinations.
1. In senior and junior programs, only two different jumps with
three or more revolutions of the skater's choice, may be repeated in
a combination or in a sequence of jumps with the provision that no
triple or quadruple jump can be attempted more than twice.

Whew......

[icenut84]

Originally posted by Elsy2
1. In senior and junior programs, only two different jumps with
three or more revolutions of the skater's choice, may be repeated in
a combination or in a sequence of jumps with the provision that no
triple or quadruple jump can be attempted more than twice.

Thanks Elsy, that makes sense. Apart from the last bit... "no triple or quad can be attempted more than twice". Is that making reference to completing the triple more than twice, or trying it more than twice? I mean, if you fail on the second one, does that mean you can't try it again because you've already attempted it twice (and landed it once)? If so, Michelle broke that rule in the Olympics - she went for the 3toe-3toe and doubled out on the second one, and went for the 3toe again near the end and landed it. So technically she went for the jump three times. And in 2000 Worlds, didn't Plushenko attempt the quad three times? (doubled out the first time, did a triple the second). It seems like skaters do that a lot. Can you confirm what the rule actually means?

Either of
1) you can't complete the same jump more than twice
2) you can't attempt the jump more than twice

:??

[Lee]

You can only 'try' two jumps twice. Attempts count.

[spicyicey]

Michelle wouldn't have broken the rule in that instance because she completed a double toe loop. That has nothing to do with the triple rule-it was completely legal because she never really attempted the third rotation. She just did a double toe loop. Had she fell on the second half of a triple toe/ triple toe and then done another triple toe, then we would have had a problem.

[tidesong]

yeah that is related to the definition of attempt.

I don't have a rulebook but I think its something on the lines where if you rotated the jump at least 1/4 to 1/2 rotation short( i think this is a rule of thumb only... ) it is considered an attempt whether or not you fall, two foot hand down or anything.

The good thing is you can get some credit for it. The bad thing is you can't try it again because it has already been counted (if it is a triple/quad jump and unless in combination).

[icenut84]

Thanks everyone, that makes a lot more sense now. I had been wondering about the doubles thing. What about the second question - having a three jump combination that has all the jumps the same (although maybe different number of rotations) - e.g:
Quad toe-triple toe-double toe
Triple toe-triple toe-double toe
Triple loop-triple loop-double loop

Are there any rules about that?

[vesperholly]

No rules, but you might get dinged for not having a variety of jump types in your program. It's better to do a salchow, toe loop and loop than four flips.

Jocelyn