Phil Hersh - "Former ISU officials hypocritical"

[maruko]

I saw this on my hometown newspaper. You need to register to read.

From Chicago Tribune today:

Former ISU officials hypocritical

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/printedition/chi-0303310193mar31,1,347210.story?coll=chi%2Dprintspo rts%2Dhed


I love Mr. Hersh's insight in the situation. I was stunned at how many people started to jump on the bandwagan without question the intergrity and the personal agenda of people like Stapleford, Pfenning.

Yes, ISU is certainly not perfect has its own problem. Why should I believe WSF can be any better? They are already heavily pro-Amerians. How can I believe their judges(if they will have any) won't be biased or corrupted? It seems obvious that they cannot be impartials anyway.

[Mazurka Girl]

I'm bumping this because I found a link where you don't have to register:

http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/5520278.htm

Pfenning, an ISU figure skating technical committee member since 1994, admitted he began planning this new federation nine months ago. While trying to drum up support, he continued to work as an ISU official and travel at ISU expense. He had an ISU accreditation at last week's world championships in Washington, when the WSF announced its formation.

"If you were an honest person and you had the intention to fight with your company, you would step out of your company first," said ISU legal counsel Gerhardt Bubnik of the Czech Republic.

[sonora]

Interesting that the column by Hersh ( it is a column, not an article) begins with quoting that famous doyenne of integrity, Lillian Hellman. If there is anyone whose leadership help we do not need now, it is that notorious liar.

The column also fails to make clear that Pfenning did his work for the ISU on a volunteer basis.

Pfenning will be honored at Governing Council for 4o years as both a USFSA judge and accountant. I don't think those of you who don't do either of those jobs understand how much work and how little glamour is involved, all uncompensated.

There are very few officials I hold in as high regard as I hold Pfenning. His integrity in judging and love of the sport are unquestioned by those of us who know him and know his work.

[DancerFan]

Originally posted by sonora
There are very few officials I hold in as high regard as I hold Pfenning. His integrity in judging and love of the sport are unquestioned by those of us who know him and know his work.

I couldn't agree more. Pfenning was a VOLUNTEER for the ISU, and his integrity and ethical behavior are what made him leave the ISU after his 'whistle blowing' at SLC had virtually no effect on the corrupt organization.

[terisalyn]

Why do so many people assume that the WSF will be biased towards North American competitors?? Because many of the organizers are North American?? :roll:


I don't know enough about the organizational aspect of skating to pass judgement on the whole organization (there, I admitted it; that wasn't so hard ;) ) but at least they're starting from a point that the ISU doesn't seem to be able to get to: with a clear-cut statement AGAINST corrupt judging and secrecy in procedure!

[Mazurka Girl]

I don't believe he can do whatever he wants just because he is a volunteer. The USFSA, as do most sports organizations, have pretty clear guidelines governing these areas. It sounds like the ISU does too, even if they weren't followed. Beyond written guidelines, it's generally accepted that someone has to bow out when there is a conflict. Pfenning has done a great deal for skating over the years & it should not be minimized. But he exercised very bad judgement this time & that should not be minimized either. If he is going to stand for integrity & ethical behavior, he ought to make sure he follows it at all times himself.

[sonora]

Who is being misquoted now? Did I say Ron can do whatever he wants because he is a volunteer?

No.

But I'm interested Mazurka girl. Show me the USFSA conflicts policy, or the ISU one for that matter, that you think Pfenning has violated.

The point I was trying to make is that Hersh insinuates Pfenning was on the ISU dime while he was planning the WSF.

I think Pfenning gave the ISU and Cinquanta every opportunity to behave properly. When they failed, he presented an alternative.

[Mazurka Girl]

Originally posted by sonora
Who is being misquoted now? Did I say Ron can do whatever he wants because he is a volunteer?
Uh, first of all, as noted above, I wasn't quoting you. And there seems to be some kind of perception problem when you read others posts, not only with me but with others as well. You also did this same thing to a post by Louis earlier this afternoon on the dance thread when what he was saying was easily understood.

Furthermore, I did not indicate that I felt Pfenning violated any USFSA policies. I was noting that they exist, because apparently there is a contingent of people who question why he would need to adhere to high standards regarding conflicts if he is a volunteer.

[sonora]

Who were you quoting then Mazurka girl? I think you need to work on your reading comprehension a little. I don't think you made it clear who you were quoting at all. Instead, you attacked re the issue of Ron being a volunteer, without stating which of us you were referring too.

Use the quote option. It will help you. Also, read others' posts more carefully.

And I asked Louis a polite question to clarify something he said.

For those interested in Pfenning's stand on various issues, goldenskate is offering a chance to submit interview questions:

http://www.goldenskate.com/

And you still haven't referenced the "policy" you keep referring to, ISU or USFSA.

[Mazurka Girl]

ISU Constitution:

12. Individuals who are members of the ISU member national associations are bound by the ISU constitution and regulations and must obey the decisions of the ISU Council concerning all international matters. Such individuals are obligated in all national and international matters to support the ISU, and may not participate in any activities - national or international - against the interests of the ISU.

[Mazurka Girl]

Originally posted by sonora
Use the quote option. It will help you. Also, read others' posts more carefully.

And you still haven't referenced the "policy" you keep referring to, ISU or USFSA.
One more time, I was not quoting you previously, I was making an observation. I don't know what your issue is, but it's time for you to lay off. I have been posting here for awhile now & get along with most posters fine.

Review the preceding post.

[sonora]

Well I think we could come up with quite a tidy list of ISU officials who have vioated that section of the constitution, starting with Cinquanta, and including the infamous LeGougne and also the current Pres of the French skating federation.

And then of course there is what common sense tells you, which is when you belong to an orgnaization that is corrupt, what are your responsibilities? To blindly obey the organization(referred to in international law as "The Nuremberg Defense") or to blow the whistle and work for change?

United States law protects whistleblowers by the way, and the ISU's action in removing Pfenning from refereeing ladies' at Worlds violated that federal statute.

[sonora]

I'm not gonna back down or "lay off" on this issue Mazurka girl. Figure skating is too important to me to stand silently by and allow the corruption to continue any longer.

[Mazurka Girl]

Of course there are other people who have violated rules. No one said otherwise. It does not make it alright for Pfenning to knowingly undertake working for competing groups & not removing himself from the conflict. Especially if the new leaders are presenting themselves as pillars of integrity for the new generations.

Point out all the people who doing it from all the groups when they do it. That's what I said in the other thread & what I think is the right thing to do.

[manleywoman]

Originally posted by sonora
The point I was trying to make is that Hersh insinuates Pfenning was on the ISU dime while he was planning the WSF.

Originally posted by mazurka girl
I don't believe he can do whatever he wants just because he is a volunteer. The USFSA, as do most sports organizations, have pretty clear guidelines governing these areas. ... it's generally accepted that someone has to bow out when there is a conflict. ...If he is going to stand for integrity & ethical behavior, he ought to make sure he follows it at all times himself.

I thnk you're both right here.

Yes, Hirsh is wrong in the article to not point out that Pfenning was a volunteer. (That's why as a general rule I never beleive everything I read in the press...you don't know if all the facts are there.)

But I would also say that yes, Pfenning shouldn't have been planning another organization behind the back of the one for whom he was volunteering. Could absolutely be seen as a conflict of interest.

But frankly, overall I'm waiting to reserve judgement on this whole WSF/ISU issue. I don't think all the facts are out yet.

Originally posted by sonora
I don't think you made it clear who you were quoting at all. Instead, you attacked re the issue of Ron being a volunteer, without stating which of us you were referring too.

Sonora, Mazurka Girl didn't make it clear who she was quoting because she WASN'T quoting...she was making an observation. She didn't attack Pfenning...she even points out that he has done a lot for skating as a whole...she's just pointing out the other side of the arguement. And I don't think she was referring specifically to your post either, and I certainly don't get the impression she was attacking anyone's post specifically.

This is a discussion board. We should be able to discuss all sides of any issue without it getting personal.

Can't we all just get along?:D

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by Mazurka Girl

One more time, I was not quoting you previously, I was making an observation. I don't know what your issue is, but it's time for you to lay off. I have been posting here for awhile now & get along with most posters fine.

Just because you've been posting her for a while doesn't mean you can go telling people off this way.

~adrianchew~

[Ellyn]

Originally posted by sonora
United States law protects whistleblowers by the way, and the ISU's action in removing Pfenning from refereeing ladies' at Worlds violated that federal statute.

Actually, Cinquanta (i.e., the ISU) removed Pfenning from refereeing the ladies' event at Worlds because he had stated his intention to ignore the "interim" system rules, which he believed to be contrary to the ISU constitution, and to run the event under the rules in place during the 2002 season. You can read the correspondence at:

http://www.skatefair.org/media/letters.php

If the ISU had wished to punish him for whistleblowing at SLC, they had ample opportunity not to assign him referee duties at 4Continents or at Worlds.

By stating his intention not to abide by the rules currently in effect, he gave them no choice but to remove him from the Worlds assignment.

Actually, I suspect what he was doing was giving Cinquanta one last chance to acknowledge that there had been procedural irregularities in the way parts of the new rules had come into effect. If Cinquanta had accepted that invitation and opened a dialogue about what was officially voted on at the ISU congress last spring and what was improperly (in Pfenning's opinion, and that of others, but obviously not Cinquanta's) introduced later by executive fiat, we might have seen some compromise on the conduct of the ladies event (and the other disciplines?) at Worlds and no WSF announcement at that time.

Because Cinquanta did nothing but insist he was right and Pfenning was wrong, instead we got Pfenning forcing the issue to the point that it was untenable for him to fulfill the referee duties at Worlds.

Trying out the new system at 4Continents and informing Cinquanta of the discrepancies between the new procedures and the requirements for event reviews that were still on the books without having been officially repealed, and thus offering Cinquanta a chance to resolve the discrepancies, could be seen as acting in better faith than just resigning from all ISU duties before the season began.

But even so, once it became clear that the reasonable dialogue was not going to occur, it's much harder to see how maneuvering Cinquanta into the position of being forced to do the dirty work of relieving him of referee duties at Worlds was acting in better faith than simply resigning on his own initiative. Especially because, as was soon revealed, Pfenning did have other plans in the works that, once implemented, put him in direct conflict with the ISU as an organization.

From what I know of Mr. Pfenning, I believe his intentions are more honorable and directed toward the good of figure skating as a sport than those of, e.g., Mr. Cinquanta. But the bit of duplicity in, essentially, getting himself fired on purpose rather than just quitting is somewhat questionable.

In fact, I do believe that Mr. Cinquanta *thinks* he's acting in the best interest of the sport. I just think that his lack of understanding of the sport of figure skating in the first place and his interest in maintaining his own authority tend to blind him to the possibility that what he thinks is best for the sport may not in fact be so in the opinion of most figure skating experts.

This isn't a question of pure good on one side vs. pure evil on the other. At most, maybe 90% good vs. 90% evil, and probably the lines are in fact even blurrier than that.

[sonora]

Ellyn:

Good analysis. I would like to clarify that the whistle blowing I am referring to is the irregularities in the implementation of the new/interim/whatever closed judging system, not the SLC stuff.

[Ellyn]

I should have said "90% motivated by interest in the good of figure skating vs. 90% motivated by self-interest." It isn't really a question of evil here at all.

[Excidra]

We spent millions of dollars on judges' education seminars presented by the technical committee. They were the ones who have educated Marie-Reine Le Gougne, not me."

ISU-1
WSF-0

Cinquanta, is right. Stapleford was in charge to train the LeGounge's in skating and if they are cheating and lieing, then I guess Stapleford didn't teach them too well or did she?

"If you were an honest person and you had the intention to fight with your company, you would step out of your company first," said ISU legal counsel Gerhardt Bubnik of the Czech Republic.

ISU-2
WSF-0

Take notes Pfenning, I think that one was directed at you.

"I told Sally hundreds of times the ISU wasn't satisfied with judging," Cinquanta said. "I said it was up to you, the technical committee, because you are responsible for judging. I never got a response in the form of a proposal.

ISU-3
WSF-0

Something is telling me that Cinquanta actually told her that he was not satisfied with the way the judges have been judging.
There are a few competitions which I find my self questioning the judges, I wonder if Stapleford felt the same way as I.

Sonora, We all love the sport just as much as you do. Just remember that some times, because you seem to think that you are the only person who wants the sport to move forward and gain it's cerdibility.

[Mazurka Girl]

Originally posted by adrianchew
Just because you've been posting her for a while doesn't mean you can go telling people off this way.
My apologies to everyone. Adrian is absolutely right. It is rude for me to say things like lay off, etc & lowers my standards to the same level as the baiting & taunting posts. I could have used a better choice of words.

Which doesn't take this too far off topic, because that's what I was saying about Pfenning too. He needed to adhere to standards & make a better choice about how he handled his WSF transition. So now it's back on topic.

[blue111moon]

A lot of this debate depends on your definition of "volunteer." I volunteered at a lot of competitions: I pay for my own hotel, transportation, food, and for tickets to the events I'm not assigned to. At Phenning's "volunteer" level, all of that is paid for by either the LOC, USFSA or the IOC. The only thing the trips cost him is the time away from his family and job. I'm also pretty sure (I don't have my rulebook handy) that officials at Nationals and International events receive a stipend for the days they are working. No, they're not collecting an hourly wage as such but it's not as if they're flying to these conferences and competitions solely out of the goodness of their own hearts - and wallets. So when Hersh says that Phenning was working for the WSF while on the ISU dime, he's right, unless pHenning can demonstrate that he paid his own way to all those events he went to in the 10 months that WSF uwas under development.

I'm not saying that he and the other high-ups haven't earned the perks, or that they don't put in a lot of un-compensated time on their own. But "volunteer" at that level isn't the same thing as the folks who run club competitions for free or umpire Little League games for gas money.

And when you stop and think of it. If Stapleford and Phenning are "volunteers," so is Cinquanta. And so are the Russian judges and the Israeli judge and everyone else. Being a "volunteer" at that level isn't reserved for a chosen few. So I'm not surprised that Hersh didn't feel obligated to label Phenning as a "volunteer." He's no different from everyone else.

If Phenning felt so strongly about using the "iterim" system at Worlds, why didn't he simply refuse to accept the referee's position when it wasfirst assigned to him? It's not as if he didn't know in advance what system was going to be used at Worlds. The ISU has been using it all season and made it clear to everyone that that's what would be used in DC. It was a publicity ploy for the WSF, nothing more.

Actually, I like Phenning as a person and I've found his judging to be strict but fair. It's this whole double-dealing with the WSF that's bothering a lot about him. I don't know if I can look at him the same way I used to.

[Ellyn]

Originally posted by blue111moon
If Phenning felt so strongly about using the "iterim" system at Worlds, why didn't he simply refuse to accept the referee's position when it wasfirst assigned to him?

Well, maybe he couldn't formulate his objections as specifically as necessary until after he'd actually tried it out at Four Continents. Critiques made with the benefit of hands-on experience are better than those made purely on speculation. Although as in this case it may take maintaining a conflict of interest to acquire that hands-on experience.

[Jenny]

Originally posted by sonora

United States law protects whistleblowers by the way, and the ISU's action in removing Pfenning from refereeing ladies' at Worlds violated that federal statute.

It's clear to me that Pfenning himself orchestrated his own dismissal from the judging panel. Whether it was a political move designed to put the responsiblity of their parting ways on the ISU, or a simple PR stunt to make the ISU look bad leading up to the launch of the WSF, I don't know. But this was most certainly not a random occurance.

Jenny

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by Jenny

It's clear to me that Pfenning himself orchestrated his own dismissal from the judging panel. Whether it was a political move designed to put the responsiblity of their parting ways on the ISU, or a simple PR stunt to make the ISU look bad leading up to the launch of the WSF, I don't know. But this was most certainly not a random occurance.

I suppose its too much for you to believe some people still have the integrity to stand for principles? :roll:

I do agree it is not a random occurance - but that Pfenning acted in the best interest of the sport. I do agree with Ellyn's assessment that Cinquanta does not know better and acts out of ignorance and not intentionally trying to destroy the sport.

All Pfenning did was to grab the bull by its horns and force a confrontation. This needed to happen, and kudos to Pfenning for taking Cinquanta to task.

[Jenny]

Originally posted by adrianchew
I suppose its too much for you to believe some people still have the integrity to stand for principles? :roll:



Not at all. I wish I could believe that everything Pfenning's done is about the skaters. But my own opinion, based on all I've read and heard and my own experiences and perspectives, is that I don't buy it. I don't doubt that he and others involved in WSF care about figure skating and figure skaters, but I do think there's a great deal more at play here.

If principles were the only factor, then there are a number of other courses of action that Pfenning could have followed, and information available seems to indicate that he didn't.

If the world is a wonderful place, I'll be proven wrong and I'll be the first in line to say so.

Jenny

[pennskater]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by adrianchew
Just because you've been posting her for a while doesn't mean you can go telling people off this way.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

adrian - I agree. However, both parties should have been corrected about their behavior - not just the person you disagree with. Sonora has been extremely critical of mazurka (and it looks at thos mazurka is trying to be civil while sonora is not but that's JMHO). So, right or wrong, I can see why she said to lay off. Just look at the other threads on other topics and it looks like sonora has the problem w/ mazurka.

[Arsenette]

There is soooo much information behind the scenes that are just not available to us.. including reasons (although I'm sure we are all drawing conclusions).. The idea of Pfenning actually being removed because he "didn't want to follow the system" is the part the bothers me. This new system is illegaly in no matter what others try to tell you. It was not voted to be law and somehow we are ALL subjected to it. Pfenning is not the only one that is against it - Japan is! NHK Trophy is still in the air about the whole thing. They have formally gone against the ISU and even said that their competition (NHK) will NOT have the new "interum" system!! They are NOT the WSF! So the idea that the WSF is in somehow in a vacuum is ludicrous. I'm reserving judgment on the whole thing until more information comes up and seeing that all Federations, ISU, IOC and even my own Olympic Committee has to say about it. Everyone here already knows how I'm completely unhappy with the state of the ISU and have been for YEARS! This goes beyond Cinquanta in many aspects.. I just don't like how the ISU runs in a vacuum with no one to govern them - not even subject to the IOC. Salt Lake just was the straw that broke the camel's back.

[blue111moon]

If Pfenning had all the integrity you're giving him credit for, he would have resigned from the ISU last June BEFORE he joined in the founding of the WSF.

Instead, the way he did things throws the whole organization and its integrity into question, at least in my mind.

[adrianchew]

Jenny - you can suspect and question Pfenning's motives.

It is more important when dealing with such situations to look for the greater "net good" that comes. You can question the motives of everyone involved in the sport at the ISU top level - Ottavio Cinquanta, David Dore, Phyllis Howard - just as you can question Pfenning's.

Call them all hypocrites if you want, I'm sure there's always an argument that can be made in each case. As Ellyn said...

I should have said "90% motivated by interest in the good of figure skating vs. 90% motivated by self-interest." It isn't really a question of evil here at all.

If Pfenning is 90% interested in the good of figure skating, it sure beats those individuals who seem to be to be 90% motivated by self-interest - Cinquanta, Dore (not Phyllis Howard, I believe she's made the wrong decisions but she's not doing so out of 90% self-interest).

[Jenny]

I question everyone and everything, which is why I'm not willing to take the WSF at face value. Like I said, it's not black and white. Questioning WSF does not equal supporting everything and everyone at the ISU.

Net good is definitely a valid way to look at it. Which means of course that discussion of principles is irrelevant -- what will matter in the end is what outcomes result from the formation of the WSF. I've said on other threads on other boards that if the advent of the WSF forces the ISU to reconsider some policies and positive change results, then yay!

As for Dore, I agree that he's a very political person, and apparently quite good at it. But I do not agree that he's 90% motivated by self-interest. And even if he was, if we're talking "net good" then who cares. His record with SC would indicate that he can get a lot more done, so perhaps his 10% is worth more than Pfenning's 90%. If we're talking net good of course.

Jenny

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by Jenny

As for Dore, I agree that he's a very political person, and apparently quite good at it. But I do not agree that he's 90% motivated by self-interest. And even if he was, if we're talking "net good" then who cares. His record with SC would indicate that he can get a lot more done, so perhaps his 10% is worth more than Pfenning's 90%. If we're talking net good of course.

The problem is Dore's record with SC is questionable - I don't believe the success of SC can be attributable solely to Dore. His lieutenants could have done tons for which he gets credit - he certainly plays the game. And does he represent the interests of the net good of the sport, or of just Canadians?

Pfenning OTOH seems to me less political, and his history is with judging at the international level.

Dore is a better politician and far less technical to Pfenning. Dore seems more willing to play the games than Pfenning is - and I'm not much a fan of game playing. The very political nature of Dore leads me to be extra suspicious of his motives, and I'd venture a guess Dore at the very least is more motivated by self-interest than Pfenning is.

As successful as Skate Canada has been, it has to be pointed out that their overall success competitively at the highest levels doesn't match the USFSA, Russian or Japanese federations. The success in SC is grassroots programs with tons of little skaters, who never even turn competitive... managing the ISU is not managing learn to skate programs.

[Jenny]

Originally posted by adrianchew
The problem is Dore's record with SC is questionable - I don't believe the success of SC can be attributable solely to Dore. His lieutenants could have done tons for which he gets credit - he certainly plays the game.

Interesting perspective. If the SC's successes need to be attributed to the broader SC team and not just Dore, then should the ISU's failures not be attributed to the broader council, committees and members, and not just Cinquanta?

And does he represent the interests of the net good of the sport, or of just Canadians?

That remains to be seen. National bias will always be a concern in international organizations, because everyone comes from somewhere. So, if we are concerned about Dore being Canadian, then we should also be concerned about Pfenning being American, and how everyone else's nationality may affect their work as well.

Pfenning OTOH seems to me less political, and his history is with judging at the international level.

:lol: I think we can all agree that judges are not immune to politics in this sport!

I'd venture a guess Dore at the very least is more motivated by self-interest than Pfenning is.

Could be, but as I said earlier on this thread (or maybe it was on another thread on another board :D ), if Dore is capable of getting things done, then his hypothetical 10% might be worth more than other peoples' hypothetical 90% in terms of "net good."

As successful as Skate Canada has been, it has to be pointed out that their overall success competitively at the highest levels doesn't match the USFSA, Russian or Japanese federations. The success in SC is grassroots programs with tons of little skaters, who never even turn competitive... managing the ISU is not managing learn to skate programs.

That's absolutely true, but irrelevant. SC is also successful at running international events, which looks pretty good on a resume for the ISU. Perhaps Dore is not the man if the mission is to develop competitive skaters - but is that the ISU's mission? I don't think so. And I would also argue that a good businessman who can work within the system is of great value in any leadership role.

But no matter - we haven't seen Dore in action as yet, but I'm sure he's been active behind the scenes and that he will emerge more prominently in the future. Then, we can begin to judge his abilities and contributions to the sport at the international level.

Jenny

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by Jenny

Interesting perspective. If the SC's successes need to be attributed to the broader SC team and not just Dore, then should the ISU's failures not be attributed to the broader council, committees and members, and not just Cinquanta?

Yes - notice I've lost all hope in the ISU - not just Cinquanta. Cinquanta however is almost solely responsible for putting stuff into the rulebook that wasn't even agreed upon (I say *almost* solely because Fredi Schmid is his accomplice).

That remains to be seen. National bias will always be a concern in international organizations, because everyone comes from somewhere. So, if we are concerned about Dore being Canadian, then we should also be concerned about Pfenning being American, and how everyone else's nationality may affect their work as well.

Its not pure nationality, but backgrounds as well. Dore was a former President of Skate Canada, Pfenning is an international judge... Pfenning's background in the sport is far more technical and international in comparison to Dore's.

Could be, but as I said earlier on this thread (or maybe it was on another thread on another board :D ), if Dore is capable of getting things done, then his hypothetical 10% might be worth more than other peoples' hypothetical 90% in terms of "net good."

What will Dore do/what has Dore done? Pfenning is associated with an organization that has a published set of principles. Dore hasn't spoken up - he's in charge of Figure Skating supposedly in the ISU but hasn't had any say in public.

And I would also argue that a good businessman who can work within the system is of great value in any leadership role.

To what ends? If Dore works within the system, but the approach is to promote the interim judging system, the anonymity of judges, the new code of points - then he is working the system - but destroying the sport in the process along with Cinquanta. He's not technical - and Cinquanta's problem is that he's even less technical savvy.

The core problem to be dealt with is the judging of the sport. Pfenning has tons of experience in that area. Dore doesn't.

But no matter - we haven't seen Dore in action as yet, but I'm sure he's been active behind the scenes and that he will emerge more prominently in the future. Then, we can begin to judge his abilities and contributions to the sport at the international level.

At what cost to the sport? The new Cinquanta judging system is to go into effect for the GP series which begins in about 7-8 months. Even if Dore can do something - it might be a case too little, too late.

[loveskating]

"The core problem to be dealt with is the judging of the sport. Pfenning has tons of experience in that area. Dore doesn't."

I thought we were told that the core problem was CORRUPTION in the judging of the sport, not the judging itself.

In any case, as far as the WSF is concerned, the old system of judging is just fine, and the only problem is that a few judges have not been banned for life!

Personally, I don't think the new system stops the corruption...much more needs to be done, but I don't see how an American dominated world Federation which hires judges would do a thing about that...

But on the FACE of it, you cannot hope to purify the sport by having EITHER of the protagonists in charge...something better, something higher, and above all, something PRACTICAL, needs to come out of the conflict, something which can unite people.

Read Plutarch...this is as ancient as it gets...in Greece, they exiled the winners in any conflict, precisely because people who were defeated would NEVER rest easy with those folks in charge!

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by loveskating

Read Plutarch...this is as ancient as it gets...in Greece, they exiled the winners in any conflict, precisely because people who were defeated would NEVER rest easy with those folks in charge!

We don't live in ancient Greece... what worked then doesn't always apply to the world as we know it today.

;)

[Jenny]

Originally posted by adrianchew

Its not pure nationality, but backgrounds as well. Dore was a former President of Skate Canada, Pfenning is an international judge... Pfenning's background in the sport is far more technical and international in comparison to Dore's.

Well there's another point on which you and I differ. In Dore's position, I would much rather have a someone with experience in running a large member-based organization, in working with Olympic committees, in financials for member-based organizations, event management, working with boards and committees, and leadership. For technical expertise, I would look to the technical committees of the ISU ... oh, wait ...

As for international experience, Dore's got plenty more than travelling around to judge competitions. IIRC, he was on the GP commission, and has hosted numerous international events in Canada. Beyond that, I'm guessing only that he has been very active in the ISU and is experienced in working with other ISU members, because they did vote him in.



What will Dore do/what has Dore done? Pfenning is associated with an organization that has a published set of principles. Dore hasn't spoken up - he's in charge of Figure Skating supposedly in the ISU but hasn't had any say in public.

Just because he hasn't spoken publicly doesn't mean he isn't doing a lot behind the scenes. Not everyone seeks the spotlight. It's not uncommon for an organization to have one spokesperson, usually the head of it.

And while we're at it, because I've asked this question before and no one has answered it, what did Pfenning do in his years in the ISU? He was right in the thick of it while all the problems we have today were brewing. Did he speak out before Larry King and the boys came knocking? Did he stand up for principles? Did he achieve anything?

To what ends? If Dore works within the system, but the approach is to promote the interim judging system, the anonymity of judges, the new code of points - then he is working the system - but destroying the sport in the process along with Cinquanta. He's not technical - and Cinquanta's problem is that he's even less technical savvy.

I don't like the anonymous judging either, nor the way panels are chosen, nor the way marks are randomly selected. But I also recognize it's an interim system, and I'm willing to wait and see how it goes with the new system. The ISU also said in Washington (thanks in part to pressure from SkateFAIR I imagine) that they are going to look at ways to show fans and media more information at events.

I'm by no means sold on the new system, but I'm willing to give it a try based on the idea that they have been testing it, and it has received some endorsements, so it might be worth trying out for real.

The core problem to be dealt with is the judging of the sport. Pfenning has tons of experience in that area. Dore doesn't.

My understanding is that the WSF wants to keep the 6.0 system, and I'm not sure I agree with that. Corruption aside, there have been complaints for years that the old system was too subjective, resulting in wide disparity in marks and ordinals.

I know that some fans have taken a great interest in the various marking systems, and have some serious concerns about the potential flaws in the new system. However, it's only ISU folks who have been privy to the testing process to see how it's actually playing out - the rest of us are talking in theories.

Pfenning would know more about it, but then again so would members of the technical committees and other ISU/federation people, and I'm not seeing the huge outcry one would expect if it was that bad.

Let's wait and see, shall we?

Jenny

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by Jenny

Let's wait and see, shall we?

For how much longer? The ISU has not dealt with the judges who were caught cheating in the past such as Yuri Balkov. The problem is the honesty of the judges, not the judging system. The ISU has constantly pushed whistleblowers out of judging.

You have to realize that the new judging system was not endorsed and snuck into the rulebooks by Cinquanta, and this the federations didn't agree to. It was done underhandedly and violated the ISU constitution.

The time to wait and see is over. The ISU had a chance to address the problems and didn't satisfy enough people - now there's a very real threat of the sport being split into two - no, some of us have waited, for too long, and have not seen.

Bush could have waited, but no, he went in and dealt with Saddam. He got done in weeks what the UN couldn't get done in years. Actions, drastic as they seem - are often the ones that yield actual results.

[speedy]

Adrian, I couldn't agree more with your last post...bravo. I am amazed at how people continually overlook the incredibly inane and downright dishonest actions the ISU has taken (and not taken) over the years, especially recently, in the name of keeping things status quo and not rocking the boat. We can debate the qualifications of Dore vs. Pfenning forever, but the fact is the ISU and their idiotic decisions have demeaned and diminished the sport of figure skating to the point that extreme measures are now necessary to keep the sport from dropping off the radar completely. If not for athletes such as Yagudin, Kwan and Plushenko the sport would be in even greater disrepair than it is currently. These skaters, as well as the lower-tier athletes, deserve better than what they've received from the ISU. I really don't care if the answer is the WSF or a house-cleaning at the ISU...it's time for action and now. I'm sick of interim judging, and I'm sick of waiting for the honest people in the ISU to step up and I'm sick of waiting for the whole bloated bureaucracy of the ISU to move into the 21st Century. If the ISU was a corporation they would have had to file for Chapter 11 a couple of years ago and the stockholders would be filing lawsuits. The whole idea of waiting for the ISU to clean up their act is tantamount to waiting for Saddam to clean up his...it ain't gonna happen folks. How hard is it to ban judges for life that are caught cheating? How hard is it to come up with a sensible, fair and non-anonymous judging system that doesn't require systems analysts to determine if it's actually fair or not? How hard is it to separate the sport of FIGURE skating from the sport of SPEED skating?? Obviously for the ISU, it's too hard. THIS is the root of the problem...and as long as they determine the rules and hold the cards, the rest of us are going to be playing 52-card pickup ad infinitum. Personally I, along with obviously the members of the WSF and many other skating fans, are tired of the game.

[Jenny]

When I said "let's wait and see" I was referring to the new judging system, as discussed in the 3 paragraphs above that sentence.

Jenny

[manleywoman]

in regards to the last two posts by speedy and Adrian...

I can't say I disagree with the points you made regarding the lack of change in the ISU, but I have to disagree with your analogy of the ISU to how we handled the war in Iraq.

But that's another thread.

[Norlite]

Originally posted by adrianchew

Its not pure nationality, but backgrounds as well. Dore was a former President of Skate Canada, Pfenning is an international judge... Pfenning's background in the sport is far more technical and international in comparison to Dore's.

The core problem to be dealt with is the judging of the sport. Pfenning has tons of experience in that area. Dore doesn't.


Umm, does anyone know what Mr. Dore was doing before he became President of Skate Canada?

[Fred Freebus]

Delurking to post:

David Dore was a skater who skated for Canada internationally - no major medals that I know of. After he retired from skating he became a judge and judged at the Olympics. So his background is as an international athlete, an international judge, and a top level administrator.

Back to lurking.

[RizzleRed]

I do know that David Dore was at least a national level judge in Canada. He 's one of the judges on one of my older tapes.

[Norlite]

David Dore was indeed a World and Olympic Judge. I remember him at several Worlds, and 1984 Olympics.

[IgglesII]

Originally posted by blue111moon
A lot of this debate depends on your definition of "volunteer." I volunteered at a lot of competitions: I pay for my own hotel, transportation, food, and for tickets to the events I'm not assigned to. At Phenning's "volunteer" level, all of that is paid for by either the LOC, USFSA or the IOC. The only thing the trips cost him is the time away from his family and job.


That's the same thing I was thinking - I'm a little surprised that no one mentioned that earlier in this thread. The idea that Pfenning or Stapleford or any other judge or official for the ISU is "volunteer" is ludicrous. They don't get an actual salary, so they're volunteer?? HA! As soon as they start paying for their own travel, food, lodging, etc., I'll consider them volunteer.

The ISU's legal counsel is right - if you're going to attack your own company, it would generally be considered good form to leave said company first.

[Jenny]

How interesting! I didn't realize that Dore is both a former competitor and former international judge, at the Olympics no less. His qualifications for next President of the ISU look better and better.

Jenny

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by Jenny

And while we're at it, because I've asked this question before and no one has answered it, what did Pfenning do in his years in the ISU? He was right in the thick of it while all the problems we have today were brewing. Did he speak out before Larry King and the boys came knocking? Did he stand up for principles? Did he achieve anything?

Pfenning was directly responsible for exposing the judging scandal at SLC - as the referee for the pairs event. It was his own words in the review meeting that prompted Le Gounge's confession, and it was his choice to expose the situation, and not hide it behind closed doors.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/olympics/winter/2002-10-02-skating-coldwar_x.htm

Skate Canada and Dore have worked within the system since the SLC scandal. What have they done? Supported individuals like Lakernik and Groshkov in exchange for Dore's position in the ISU. Individuals that would go to the point of suggesting Pfenning's actions for revealing the bad judging at SLC should be reprimanded.

Qualifications aside... Dore and Skate Canada cannot be trusted at this point. Their questionable choices in the past year is what everyone has to consider... there is no hard proof that Dore's position was bought by trading votes. But there is very clear indications that Skate Canada has constantly stated their position of working within the system, and that Dore has not acted in any decisive manner to improve the ISU. He has spoken vaguely of addressing the concerns about accountability but he says he can't talk about it because he's working on it. :roll:

[Jenny]

Pfenning was a member of the ISU Technical Committee for eight years before SLC. What did he do for the sport during that time? What recommendations did he put forward? What principles did he fight for? What did he say about previous high profile judging scandals?

In asking these questions, I really do want the answers. I'm not going to assume he did nothing just because I personally never heard about it.

The same should apply to Dore in the 10 months he's held his current position. Just because you don't know about it, doesn't mean he's not hard at work.

And you can decry SC's position on the ISU all you want, but recognize that your views are not shared universally. From my point of view, initiating, facilitating and promoting change from within is a good thing. Doing so from the outside is sometimes necessary, but often results in more negative results than positive.

Jenny

[Sylvia]

Originally posted by Jenny
Pfenning was a member of the ISU Technical Committee for eight years before SLC. What did he do for the sport during that time? What recommendations did he put forward? What principles did he fight for? What did he say about previous high profile judging scandals?

In asking these questions, I really do want the answers. I'm not going to assume he did nothing just because I personally never heard about it.
Jenny

Why not ask him yourself? :) Golden Skate is accepting questions for Ron Pfenning on behalf of the World Skating Federation until April 30, 2003 at:
http://goldenskate.com/interviews/submission.shtml

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by Jenny

Pfenning was a member of the ISU Technical Committee for eight years before SLC. What did he do for the sport during that time? What recommendations did he put forward? What principles did he fight for? What did he say about previous high profile judging scandals?

In asking these questions, I really do want the answers. I'm not going to assume he did nothing just because I personally never heard about it.

You should take the opportunity to ask him the questions you have about him...

http://goldenskate.com/interviews/submission.shtml

[Jenny]

Good idea, I think I will.

Jenny

[loveskating]

Originally posted by adrianchew
We don't live in ancient Greece... what worked then doesn't always apply to the world as we know it today.

;)

With great respect for you, Adrian, acknowledging your sincerety and integrity, please think about this: it does still apply; consider many recent experiences that show that that the one who leads the battles/war cannot lead the peace....it applied to Newt Gingrich, who overthrew the Democrats in Congress...ultimately, he had to go because he was such a devisive force. Gingrich was so hated and mistrusted by the other side, they could not get anything to work with him around...and he was so arrogant with his own, they began to find him very difficult to work with as well.

Consider also the possilbity that the generals who do the fighting are not good at governing...war and peace are two very different things: this is almost an iron law, with very few exceptions, like US Grant, DD Eisenhower, and in neither case was their governance very good.

If people sincerely want a resolution and a purifying, then while it does not have to be Dore, it sure has to be someone remote from the fighting! Quite remote, and IMHO it needs to be someone with a very good track record of BUILDING organization and membership, of having leadership skills which UNITE people, not drive them away, ban, excommucincate, shun and all that nonsense.

[Jenny]

This is the question I have submitted to the Pfenning interview:

"Please describe your contributions to the sport in the nine years you were a member of the ISU Technical Committee,
including actions taken on high profile judging scandals previous to the Salt Lake City Olympics (such as the dealmaking
prior to the dance event at the Nagano Olympics, and the toe-tapping incident by pairs judges at the Helsinki World
Championships), and, during the same period, your adherence to and promotion of the principles now adopted by the WSF. Thank you."

Jenny