Some Things Are More Important Than Gold (Thoughts About MK)

[Peter G]

[color=darkblue:593e6ca97f]There were so many posts about Michelle Kwan when she left Frank Carroll. And many more about her performances and accomplishments (or lack of, in SOME people's eyes) since then.

I haven't posted about any of this until now.

Life is a great gift we all share. So many opportunites await all of us. My aunt gave me a poem one time that mentioned that the journey is more important than the destination. I think this explains in a way how I feel about Michelle Kwan.

I think Kurt Browning had said something about how as a professional, he really didn't need a coach anymore. Anything he needed to know about skating, he should already know. It was time for him to just do what he needed to do and to rely on himself and his knowledge of the sport.

I wonder if this is what Michelle went through the last year. While she's still eligible, I wonder if she has already learned what she needs to know about the sport. Now it's about looking into herself and pushing herself to do whatever she can.

It's about searching for who she is and what she can do. She doesn't need a coach to do this. She has to look into herself and see what's there. No coach, no safety blanket.

I might be completely wrong here, but this is how I see it. And I think it's phenomenal! Now it is about her growth as a person. Maybe she could have added more Gold to her collection (including the Olympic variety), but I feel Michelle has made a decision to take a big step as a person instead of adding medals to her collection.

I admire this so much! I think this is an example of being a good role model. Discover who you are, push your limits...the consequences are not as important as the exploration, the attempt.

I feel this is more important than all the gold in the world.[/color:593e6ca97f]

[bleu]

Great topic. I would also like to add another perspective here, something different from Peter:


What is the point of sticking around for another four years only to do the same thing as before? is that all that a skater can do?

Michele comes to mind. She has been around for a long time. She did not wait until after the olympics to fire her coach or try a new jump. I expect her to do better and even become a threat in the next 4 years. I think such a move is worth praising rather than criticizing. Even though she didn't win many competitions, she did the right thing for herself and will be rewarded pretty soon. That is, IMO, better than sticking around and doing the same thing year after year...

Another example is S&P. Although I appreciated Richard Gauthier's input, I think they were wise to dump him for Jan Ullmark. They didn't want to do the same old thing(falling on the 2A or the SBS jump). They wanted to improve. Thanks God for that decision..otherwise, I wouldn't have seen a clean love story. Again, an example of a skater(s) taking risks even if it is in the Olympic year rather than doing the same thing over and over.

[loveskating]

What is important to Michelle Kwan is her business, I'd say.

She said quite clearly numerous times to us all in public interview after interview that it was important to her to win an Olympic Gold medal...her fans posted for four years that it was important to them that she win an Olympic gold medal.

She did not win, no doubt about it.

Now it is claimed that it did not matter.

That was my view all along...and for many reasons...but I must admit, I'd like an explanation from those who posted for 4 years quite differently. They must have learned something, discovered something?

Myself, I don't think Michelle is wise to stay in...I think she has peaked, so under those circumstances, when she cannot do anything to top herself, and when others have topped her, her quest for Olympic gold will, and possibly has already, become so individual and so personal as to be construed as, well, tiresome.

As for why she left Caroll, who knows...but I will say that the only thing different about her skating was the 3 lutz/2 loop, and that was important to Michelle at U.S. Nationals and at Worlds, for sure.

[RobinA]

I don't know why Michelle dumped her coach and it's none of my business, but doing a triple/triple is not about searching for oneself, looking into oneself, or not knowing everything there is to know about skating. It's a technical feat, the difficulty of which requires a knowledgable coach on the sidelines figuring out how to get things right. A coach is not a parent whom one grows out of the need for. The reason Kurt Browning or anybody else may not need a coach as a pro is that they aren't pushing up against the edge of their abilities the way the eligibles are.

Michelle can conduct her career in any way she wants at this point, but if she hopes to remain at the top she needs a coach.

[ILoveAllSkaters]

I have always loved seeing Michelle. If she does decide to stop soon (God forbid), I will always cherish her great skating life through videos.

Two of these that I watched today were her '96 SP and "FOG" at the Olympics. They were absolutely great. :D :D :D :D :D :D

[nits]

I would love to see Michelle stick around and win Gold at Turino, however Michelle may have other plans for herself.
In answer to the questions about Michelle's fans wanting gold for Michelle yet now saying it doesn't matter...well, as a Michelle fan, I can say that winning that gold wasn't as important to her fans as some think. A majority of Michelle fans realized that there was a strong possibilty that Michelle might not win at SLC. I remembered Nagano..anything can happen. I admit that I wanted Michelle to win, but the end result would not change the fact that win or lose, IMO, Michelle is still the best skater out there. My opinion didn't change after Nagano, and it hasn't changed after SLC.

[shine]

[quote:5abd853414="loveskating"]Now it is claimed that it did not matter.

That was my view all along...and for many reasons...but I must admit, I'd like an explanation from those who posted for 4 years quite differently. [/quote:5abd853414]
Wofice dear, now let me guess.....hmmmmm.....this post would probably have been totally different if we substituted Sasha Cohen's name for Michelle Kwan, wouldn't it? And let me guess again...hmmmmmm....you probably have never had any childhood dream that really didn't matter what it was but you just felt like pursuing, have you?
Let me tell you, I, as a fan of Michelle, believed and still believe that the Olympic gold medal is important to Michelle, for she has dreamed of it ever since she was little; it is important for me to see her win the gold medal, beccause she has been a wonderful person who has inspired me many times, and I would just like to see her happy; and the gold medal is important to be possessed by her, for it is to be deserved by a skater like her.
Now, did it matter that she didn't win?
To me, it did mattered, because it hurt to see Michelle lose her dream once again, and I had a hard time believing how cruel and unfair the reality could be. However, the gold medal itself to me, was nothing more than a representive of what was supposed to be Michelle's yet missed. In the long run, Michelle is still the skater whom I've loved and admired; having or havng not won Gold didn't change anything. More over, I've had the chance to witness Michelle, as a human being, take the responsiblity of leaving her long-time coach in the Olympic year herself, go out fighting, fall down, get up, fight on again, and finally face and handle the biggest disappointment of her life the second time with courage and class. It was amazing to see how heavy a load those tiny shoulders could carry, and to me, that meant so much. Of course, she lost the gold medal and it mattered and hurt, but the disappointment will wear off. The inspiration, though, will last long in my heart.
Of course, I don't know about you. Maybe the gold medal is all that matters in your eyes, at least in Michelle's case.

[loveskating]

Value of a gold medal?

On the objective side, it seems to me that an Olympic gold medal is more of a "bankable commodity" and popularity enhancer if one is not so well known and medaled as Michelle Kwan is. Winning gold has totally changed Sarah's life but what would have been different for Michelle if she had won her gold metal in 2002? Nothing, I think.

To me personally, the Olympic gold means very little. OTOH, performances of skaters mean a whole lot to me, some I watch over and over again, like B&S at Cup of Russia, Lang & Tchernachev's Carmen OD at 2002 Nationals, many, many performances. [b:aa9dfa76cf]That's what I adore and love, the actual skating and a truly great performance...if that comes on Olympic ice, then I love it, like Torvil & Dean's Bolero or Kulik's Rhapsody. If not, I STILL love it[/b:aa9dfa76cf]. That goes even for skaters who are at a lower level technically. One of my favorite performances was the Stieglers in 1999 at U.S. Nationals, I think...anyway, I love that, and watch it from time to time, always enjoying it and inspired by it.

As to Michelle, my favorite performances remain the Rach at the first pro am after the 1998 Olympics, the LP at 2000 Worlds, EOE at a pro am in 2000, I think, and the LP at 2001 Worlds. [i:aa9dfa76cf]IMHO, in 2002, she never came close to those performances.[/i:aa9dfa76cf]

Since I don't feel she reached her previous height, much less topped herself, in 2002, I feel that she has peaked, and that consequently Michelle is asking all who are not her, shall we say, very "devoted" fans, to go on yet another journey with her, and for something she in fact does not even need whatsoever in any objective sense.

I generally object to anyone in the elite asking me to support them for their own personal sake...for instance, I would NEVER vote for anyone who asked for a vote on that basis, would not so much as buy a CD to "help" some singer.

However, as always, I am totally open to enjoying great performances by ANY skaters, anywhere, any time. If Michelle ratchets it all up, that will be fine with me. I just don't think she can, by way of analysis, is all.

[Debbie S]

[quote:ebb7afa3c7]...Michelle is asking all who are not her, shall we say, very "devoted" fans, to go on yet another journey with her, and for something she in fact does not even need whatsoever in any objective sense.

I generally object to anyone in the elite asking me to support them for their own personal sake...for instance, I would NEVER vote for anyone who asked for a vote on that basis, would not so much as buy a CD to "help" some singer.
[/quote:ebb7afa3c7]

When has Michelle specifically asked fans to do anything? Her decision on whether to go on to 2006 is obviously going to be based on whether she wants to keep skating in high-pressure competitions for 4 more years and whether she feels she can stay motivated (she's said that on several occasions). More importantly, the decision is hers to make, not her fans'. I don't think fan support is influencing her decision, and it shouldn't.

It seems to me that anyone who is a true fan of any skater should simply focus on enjoying their performances and hoping they'll have success in any undertaking, whether it be an Olympic-eligible or professional venue. Michelle has never asked or expected anything from skating fans, and it's certainly not our business to dictate what she should do based on our (armchair) assessment of her abilities.

I would argue that Michelle's "journeys" have been based much more on personal fulfillment and discovery than about what she feels she "needs" in a commercial sense. Just look at her coaching/choreographer decisions this year.

[olivia]

All anyone needs to do is see Kwan skate in person and witness the reaction of fans and non-fans alike to see what REALLY makes Michelle Kwan special ... and it ain't the Olympic Gold Medal.

Still, Kwan has stated many times that she wanted the gold medal and that it's a childhood dream of hers. Well, duh! But, she's also stated that she knows it's not all that matters in life and it won't make or break her happiness (she should know -- she's been there before). So, who cares if Kwan goes for it again? Why not? If somebody told me I had another shot at my dream, I'd sure as heck take that gamble. And, I'd be even more anxious to take the gamble knowing my wonderful life would be waiting for me when I finished -- win or lose.

Re loveskating's comment: In many respects, I'd say Kwan is the least vocal to and about her fans. You see other top level figure skaters with websites with diaries written [b:8bc0a3f32c]to their fans[/b:8bc0a3f32c]. Kwan has never done this. If anything, she's simply managed to endear herself to many people through her on-ice performances and off-ice personality and demeanor. Who can explain why some people have an effect on others. It's truly an intangible. If those people ("devoted fans") choose to follow Kwan's life and career, I'd surely say that's their choice. But I think it's rather ridiculous to say Kwan's asked her fans to do anything. I know people who have followed some athletes and sports teams for decades - win or lose. They do so, because they are fans, not because they've been asked.

O-

[Blue Ridge]

[quote:d05928bcef="RobinA"]I don't know why Michelle dumped her coach and it's none of my business, but doing a triple/triple is not about searching for oneself, looking into oneself, or not knowing everything there is to know about skating. It's a technical feat, the difficulty of which requires a knowledgable coach on the sidelines figuring out how to get things right. A coach is not a parent whom one grows out of the need for. The reason Kurt Browning or anybody else may not need a coach as a pro is that they aren't pushing up against the edge of their abilities the way the eligibles are.

Michelle can conduct her career in any way she wants at this point, but if she hopes to remain at the top she needs a coach.[/quote:d05928bcef]

RobinA, thanks for the breath of fresh air here. Come on, people, Michelle wanted to win the gold, her fans wanted her to win the gold. While I have no doubt that Michelle is someone who can put such things in perspective and see that there is much more to life, even to skating, she still wanted--and, maybe, still wants--that medal.

I think Michelle is awesome both as a skater and as an individual, but I think she made a big mistake when she went to the Olympics without a coach. Aside from all that RobinA mentions, it meant she was carrying the whole burden on her shoulders alone. If anyone could have handled that probably Michelle could have, but maybe it was too much for even her. I wish she hadn't made that choice. Would she have won? Of course, we'll never know.

I, for one, expect skaters only to deliver their performances on ice to the best of their abilities, not take me on personal journeys with them.

[Badams]

[quote:066cd15879="loveskating"]
That was my view all along...and for many reasons...but I must admit, I'd like an explanation from those who posted for 4 years quite differently. They must have learned something, discovered something?
[/quote:066cd15879]

WOW! how extremely ARROGANT to demand an explanation from people that have made their OWN OPINIONS about a gold medal. who do you think you are? NOBODY owes YOU an explanation. nobody here owes ANYBODY one! :roll:

[i:066cd15879]Asking for other thoughts is hardly arrogant. However, personal attacks on posters will not be tolerated here. Its fine to respond if you disagree, but keep it civil. Consider this a warning. -adrianchew-[/i:066cd15879]

[Marco]

All of Michelle's fans and even Michelle herself would have wanted her to win that gold medal, but not because she needs to prove herself more, just because getting an Olympic gold is what she has always wanted since she was 8. Simple.

To me and I dare say to most of her fans an Olympic gold medal in itself shows nothing more a great performance at the night of the free skate. While she never delivered the best at the night at either Olympics, she has plenty perfect and touching performances under her belt. It's just a timing and pressure issue for her. It isn't like she isn't good enough to deliver a performance worthy of an Olympic gold, or like she won't be remembered at all because she never won the Olympics. For god's sake she is already a 2 time Olympic medalist, 4 time World champion and 6 time National champion of USA and most of those gold medals are supported by strong skates from her.

Oksana Baiul and Alexei Urmanov won the Olympics in 94, so what does that mean? Sarah Hughes won in 2002, what does that mean? That means they were able to deliver arguably the best performances of the night, but does that make them the best skaters in their generations? or does that make them perfect skaters? does a gold medal turn Oksana into a footwork skater? or Urmanov into a spinner, or Sarah into a Lutzer?

[loveskating]

Hello Marco:

[quote:97841e4912]All of Michelle's fans and even Michelle herself would have wanted her to win that gold medal, but not because she needs to prove herself more, [b:97841e4912]just because getting an Olympic gold is what she has always wanted since she was 8[/b:97841e4912]. Simple.[/quote:97841e4912]
(emphasis added by me)

I totally agree. I think objectively she did need to prove herself more after 98, but after Worlds 2001, she had nothing to prove...everything since has been icing on the cake.

This personal quest of hers is fine with some, not fine with others...its where I myself get off the boat and for reasons far broader than skating, even (and I have every right to feel this way and to voice my OWN opinion -- which is not binding on anyone else). Also, I tend to think Michelle has peaked...much as Todd Eldredge and Stojko had (they too had incredible performances under their belts), and I don't particularly want to be treated to the view just because she personally wants a gold medal! To me, that does not mean I dislike her...I love Luciano Pavarotti, but I cannot bear to go see him in a live opera these days (because although his voice is still great, he just no longer has the health or stamina to sing and perform as he used to even when he was 61).

OTOH, like I said, I'll be perfectly happy if MK shows my analysis to be wrong.

I more or less agree with the rest of your post as well...winning Olympic gold is not the end all be all of skating...Kurt Browning is one of the great skaters and he never won Olympic gold and there are also numerous examples of wonderful skaters, including Josee Chionard, who never medaled all that much internationally.

[quote:97841e4912]Oksana Baiul and Alexei Urmanov won the Olympics in 94, so what does that mean? Sarah Hughes won in 2002, what does that mean? That means they were able to deliver arguably the best performances of the night, but does that make them the best skaters in their generations? or does that make them perfect skaters? does a gold medal turn Oksana into a footwork skater? or Urmanov into a spinner, or Sarah into a Lutzer?[/quote:97841e4912]

I totally agree...would only add that every skater has weaknesses, there isn't one great champion, even, who did not have weaknesses and that includes Michelle Kwan.

[Jimmy Hoffa]

I know I was upset, even angry when Kwan didn't win the Olympics. Not because I think gold is everything, but because for one thing, who wants to have their lifelong dream snatched away in the exact same way twice or see it happen to someone else they are pulling for? For another thing, without the Olympic gold, she will NEVER get the respect she deserves and has EARNED.

[Blue Ridge]

[quote:fc9d708606="Jimmy Hoffa"]For another thing, without the Olympic gold, she will NEVER get the respect she deserves and has EARNED.[/quote:fc9d708606]

Well, that's a little overstated. I think Michelle has the respect she deserves and has earned from those who know figure skating. But I think the reason the gold seems so important is that the media outside of figure skating makes such a big deal out of it. One of the reasons I wanted to see Michelle win gold in SLC is the way the non-skating media always runs down the U.S. ladies gold medalists as though they are the greatest skaters of all time. Clearly Michelle belongs on the list of greatest skaters of all time, and it is not pleasant to think of future generations of Olympic viewers being given a list that Michelle is not on. But what can you do? Anyone who is going to look any further than that will find out about Michelle's accomplishments and the esteem she has been held in.

[shine]

So, loveskating or Wofice, you want Michelle to turn pro because you don't want to watch her skate just to fulfill her own personal goal. Well, all skaters either skate for their personal fulfillment/goal, proving themselves, or for their country. May I ask which of the above purpses would make a skater worthy of having your eyes set upon? Also, if you do not wish to see Michelle skate, try not to watch. It's not that hard. And I'm sure she wouldn't mind. No one is tying you to the couch and making you stare at the TV (at least I hope not).

[color=red:fa7373d65b][i:fa7373d65b]I've seen twice now specific references to loveskating's post - if you have a problem with a poster, message the person personally and resolve it. Personal attacks will not be tolerated here. Consider this a FIRM warning. -adrianchew-[/i:fa7373d65b][/color:fa7373d65b]

[loveskating]

Well, the personal quest was ok with me after 2001 Worlds...

I'd have been perfectly happy if she'd won Gold at SLC, but even if she hadn't fallen on her Flip in the LP, I don't think her skating was up to her previous level in all of 2002.

The personal quest now, after SLC, seems too much to me, is all...because I think she has peaked as an amateur. If I'm wrong, I won't be sad at all...but this is the way I consider the issue as to EVERY skater who stays in. I do understand that, say, Eldredge's fans have loved seeing him skate these past 4 years, and I havent' minded...I just could not get into his quest, though, because I simply did not think he had the goods.

I have loved Michelle...and as a pro, I feel she would clearly be doing different things, expanding her artistry, musicality, innovating etc. in ways that one simply cannot as an amateur...I mean, look at Kulik's twizzles into a 3 axel (Rubberband Man)...I don't even know if that is LEGAL in amateurs...or his doing a spin right off the landing edge of a loop jump (Blues for Narada)...very unKosher, because no speed on the runout, in fact, no runout...those are the kinds of things a pro can do and much more...including almost as much footwork as you like... that an amateur simply cannot risk. So, if Michelle were a pro, we would be seeing something new from her in my opinion.

[AxelAnnie22]

[quote:dcd33cdb46] The reason Kurt Browning or anybody else may not need a coach as a pro is that they aren't pushing up against the edge of their abilities the way the eligibles are. [/quote:dcd33cdb46]

[color=darkblue:dcd33cdb46] Thanks for making that distinction. Skating is like any other sport, I would think, and to improve, you need input from outside. You simply cannot see yourself. Any skater who is not pushing forwad, both technically and artistically, is going to be falling behind. There is not standing still in the eligible ranks, because everyone else is moving forward, and they will pass you by.

I have no doubt that Michelle has been able to put her loss in perspective - just as Irina did, and Sasha, and any of the other skaters who did not meet their goal.

But, it is a wholly different matter to rewrite the last few years and say "it didn't matter in the first place".

I watched a competition one evening, and the skater I loved, who did not win, said in her interview "Well that's ok, it (the competition) didn't matter anyway". Well, if it didn't matter, why were we all there?

Of course SLC mattered to Michelle. It mattered to her fans, the media, everybody. I can't think of too many people who didn't want her to win (well, Americans anyway).

Now, does it matter that she lost - is she less of a skater? Of course not. Let's just not be confused about IT DOESN'T MATTER, AND IT DIDN'T MATTER. It did matter - a lot. [/color:dcd33cdb46]

[loveskating]

I think that's right, but only if I can stipulate that pros have historically pushed up against DIFFERENT edges of their abilities.

Skaters HURT when they change anything they do...and protecting the jumps is the most important thing that they have to do as amateurs...because of the way the rules have evolved.

Pro skaters push the limits on the finer points of skating, and can innovate in a manner which amateurs cannot just by the rules.

I really wish there were still a separation...I really don't like these pro ams because they are not pushing THOSE edges, and are only slightly different, and really less, IMHO, than the amateur skating, except that the pressure is not nearly so heavy for the skaters...same programs, 4 3 jumps, maybe different music and a lot of hype, IMHO.

[AxelAnnie22]

. [quote:7f459a1529]I think that's right, but only if I can stipulate that pros have historically pushed up against DIFFERENT edges of their abilities

[/quote:7f459a1529]

[color=blue:7f459a1529]True, indeed. Look at Tara, for example. Her skating is gorgeous, and has improved as to quality, so very much. Injury aside, I don't think we would see her adding jumps to her repitoire, but what she has added is breathtaking.

I think that the pro ams have really limited the professionals. If the pros competed in serious competitions, like they used to, I think we sould see much more from them. They really took the competitions seriously, and worked hard to be the best, in the field in which they compete. They really can't compete with the eligible skaters, so, all they can do is try to put as many jumps in as they can.

The proams, IMO are simply showcase events for the eligible skaters. The average viewers can't discern the spectacular difficulty in Ilia's rubberband man, for example, from the dazzle of a Tim Goebel quad. It is really not fair for the Pros.

On another note, I think the pro ams have also hurt the eligible skaters. By negating the importance of Pro events, the eligibles (really the ISU) has all but eliminated pro skating as a viable competitive format, leaving nowhere for eligible skaters to move into.[/color:7f459a1529]

[Peter G]

I'm so disappointed in how this thread turned out.

I meant it to be a celebration of Michelle, like the other thread I started, "I Miss Elvis", which was so positive and encouraging.

If I had known this is how the thread would turn out, I would not have started it.

[Badams]

well...no matter what, when you start a topic on michelle...the bashers and trolls take it as their cue to chime in. they aren;t fans, yet they live to bash her. they can't leave it alone and ignore the thread. they have to ruin everything. :roll: :roll:

[Lee]

I would suggest, as a moderator and a relative 'neutral' when it comes to Michelle, that the only 'bashing' that has occurred on this thread is from some fans of Michelle towards others who have posted not overly positive things about her, her coaching change and her quest for Olympic gold.

I see several sub-topics here:

1. Some people are glad that Michelle may stick around to try for Gold again in 2006.

2. Some people say it doesn't matter that she didn't win gold in SLC.

3. Some people are still questioning her decision to go coachless this past season.

4. Some people are questioning the apparent 'change of heart' of a number of Michelle fans towards her (lack of a) gold medal.

Topics on a message board have a habit of evolving (mutating?) and going off on tangents. Most of what I've seen posted in this thread has been done in a civil manner, even if the discussion has strayed. However, it is the only current active thread about Michelle and her possible plans for the next four years, so it only stands to reason that a variety of opinions (from fans and non-fans) will surface.

Such is the nature of a [i:bd7c487b62]general[/i:bd7c487b62] skating board...

[Dustin]

[quote:274db7040a="Badams"]well...no matter what, when you start a topic on michelle...the bashers and trolls take it as their cue to chime in. they aren;t fans, yet they live to bash her. they can't leave it alone and ignore the thread. they have to ruin everything. :roll: :roll:[/quote:274db7040a]

I've only skimmed through the threads and didn't see any bashing. Don't be afraid to PM the moderators if you see any, but I don't see anything here.

[shine]

No, no bashing indeed. Just a mean-spirited put-down followoing two heart-felt posts from two posters who enjoy MK. I failed to see what point loveskating was trying to make besides questioning MK fans' "changing their minds" and asking for an explaination on this phenomenon.

[i:3a1becf9b5]Locking up this now. Its officially strayed off topic despite the attempts of two moderators to save it. -adrianchew-[/i:3a1becf9b5]