Sullivan Award

[texas1966]

Hi,
I was just wondering who won the Sullivan Award? It was held last night, but I can't find anything on the internet about the winner. I was
curious to see if Sarah won. Thanks for any help.

Kay

[adrianchew]

Actually the winner will be announced tonight (Mar 18th)...

http://www.bayarea.com/mld/cctimes/sports/5418811.htm

[A.H.Black]

I'm rooting for Cael Sanderson - the wrestler.

[drdave98]

Yeah, i'm hoping for Cael. Cael is more of an amateur than Sarah and the winner last year Michelle Kwan, so it would be good to see a true amateur win an amateur award. LOL

This is not to say I didn't agree with Michelle Kwan winning last year. I think she's accomplished a lot and deserves all accolades, but we all know my feelings about her not being a real amateur. I think Sullivan is missing the meaning of Amateur when they allow endorsed athletes into the category. That's like letting pros compete against amateurs.

[Oreo]

It was just announced that Sarah Hughes won!!

[Debbie S]

Sarah won.

I saw it over on the AOL sports page, so I can't do a link, but I'm sure the USFSA website will have something up shortly.

I actually thought Sanderson or Coughlin would have the best shot, since there was such a media backlash over MK's win last year. I'm curious to see the reactions this year. Anyway, I'm very happy for Sarah.

[Skatingsarah]

I'm really proud of Sarah. Congrats she worked really hard!
-Sarah

[cupcake728]

Way to go Sarah!!! Congrats!

I like her more and more each time she speaks.

''I only wish there could be four more awards,'' Hughes said. ''I'm very proud to be representing the sport of figure skating. I still can't believe I just won this.''
What a sportswoman she is!:) :) :)

[drdave98]

I think next year, all the real amateurs who are nominated for this award should decline because it's apparent it's not for real amateurs anymore. Why should all these college kids bust their butt against endorsed athletes? Where is the fairness? How can a college wrestler like Cael Sanderson compete against the endorsment money endorsed athletes are reaping? I realize Sarah didn't have that many endorsements in 2002, so she could be closer to an amateur than say Michael Johnson or Michelle Kwan when they respectively won their awards. So, I won't say Sullivan took a big step backwards, but figure skating has long become a professional sport with the endorsements and to have two figure skaters win back to back makes the Sully award look more and more like a professional athlete's award rather than an amateur athletes award.

[CMc]

Way to go, Sarah!!!

I know Sarah means well when she'd like to see the other recipients win too, but then again it just wouldn't be an award ceremony, would it, Sarah? ;)

There was a media backlash against Michelle winning the Sullivan last year? I didn't notice.

[Ruth215]

http://www.newsday.com/sports/olympics/ny-sarah0319,0,5508414.story?coll=ny%2Dhomepage%2Dpro mo

Congratulations Sarah!

[kwanette]

"A liitle bit closer to amateur"...I think you are or you are not...It's kind of like being "a little bit pregnant"....

[texas1966]

CONGRATULATONS TO SARAH AND GOOG LUCK AT WORLDS!!!!!!!!

Thank you for the links. I was having a hard time finding anything
about on it the web. I really thought that Natalie( the swimmer) or Chris
(the Paralyompic skier) would win this year, so I am happy to see Sarah
win she is very deserving of this award. I wish her the best what ever
she does ---hope she continues to skate.

Kay

[drdave98]

Kwanette,
Yes. They are either endorsed or not endorsed and your analogy of pregnancy works, but let's take it a bit further and look at the difference between 3 months pregnant and 9 months pregnant. You got a slender mother-to-be (Sarah's endorsements in 2002) and a fatty (Michelle's endorsements in 2001).

If Tiger Woods was in the 2001 Sully field against Michelle and Cael, you can see there is a difference between an endorsed athlete (Michelle) and a very well endorsed athlete (Tiger) and a legit amateur doing it the way Sullivan envisioned (Cael). How many would have cried foul if Tiger were in that field and defeated Michelle?

So, you're right. They are either endorsed or not endorsed, but we can break it down into amounts of endorsement and determine how much those amounts can help an endorsed athlete excel and do more than a real amateur without the assistance of endorsements.

[vesperholly]

Well, I don't think Hughes should have won because the award is based on accomplishments in the entire year. The only thing she really accomplished was a bronze at Nationals and winning the Olympics. Huge accomplishments nonetheless, but still.

Plus, how many endorsements does Kwan really do? The Chevy stuff is almost assuredly connected to the USFSA. Most of the money Kwan earned was probably due to appearance fees, paid contracts (like COI/USFSA cheesefests) and prize winnings. I didn't see her on the side of a bus hawking staplers, or in the pages of SKATING magazine peddling beef... :roll:

Jocelyn

[Trillian]

Originally posted by vesperholly
Well, I don't think Hughes should have won because the award is based on accomplishments in the entire year.

Exactly. I have no argument with the nominations of athletes like Kwan and Hughes--people might not like the rules, but until they change the rules those nominations are still legit. I don't even have a problem with Kwan's win for 2001. But as far as I'm concerned, this year several nominated athletes (especially Coughlin and Sanderson) had more impressive competitive accomplishments than Hughes, and that's why I'm pretty surprised she won. I guess her personality must have helped a lot (or they were trying to draw attention by giving the award to a "name"), because on paper I don't find her record nearly as impressive as some others.

[pink roses]

drdave, in what way do endoresments affect the award? If it is given on the basis of accomplishments, then Kwan and Hughes are fair nominees.
Considering that many folks don't consider figure skating a real sport, I think it's encouraging that Michelle and Sarah have won.

[spiralsrfun]

Congrats to Sarah on winning the sullivan award. :)

[wvgal57]

Congrats to Sarah! She's definitely a true role model for the younger atheletes and she's an excellent student. Also, Sarah won Skate Canada last year beating both Irina and Michelle, plus an Olympic Gold medal is THE medal of all medals. Her accomplishements in just that one performance are deserving IMO of this award, but from what I've read it's not just about sports, its about being a well rounded athelete, student and role model. She's definitely all of the above. Just because she won Olympics at such an early age doesn't mean she's not deserving, she is still skating after all and Olympic Gold Medalist will always be behind her name. I think she's been an excellent OGC and many young skaters will look towards her for inspiration.

[drdave98]

Pink Roses,
Endorsements make a difference in the quality of training an athlete receives. It also makes the quality of life better and a better quality of life leads to better mental health and better training results. There is an unlimited advantage to having endorsement money to support training. Money is the fuel that makes the world turn and the more you have, the more you can buy. Endorsements are not allowed in true amateur sports and that's what Sullivan used to be about. About the amateur athlete who scraped by to do a sport they loved. To sacrafice comforts of living for the sport.

If we think about it, if Tonya Harding was allowed to sign endorsement deals while competing as an amateur, her financial hardship wouldn't have been a factor and her husband wouldn't have to cheat to get the advantage over Nancy for any post Olympic endorsement deals. That's what the whole Tonya/Nancy thing is about. Jeff wanted to get paid and the only one to get paid would be the Olympic Champion. If Tonya can't beat Nancy, then they better get rid of Nancy.

[duane]

Originally posted by wvgal57
...an Olympic Gold medal is THE medal of all medals. Her accomplishements in just that one performance are deserving IMO of this award.

what also made sarah's win special was her being in 4th place going into the LP. i dont think any skater has ever jumped from 4th to 1st at the Olympics.

Congratulations sarah!!

[CMc]

Originally posted by vesperholly
Well, I don't think Hughes should have won because the award is based on accomplishments in the entire year. The only thing she really accomplished was a bronze at Nationals and winning the Olympics.

She won a SILVER at Nationals. :roll:

[spiralsrfun]

Sarah won the Bronze medal at Nationals in 2002 CMc.

[CMc]

Originally posted by vesperholly
Well, I don't think Hughes should have won because the award is based on accomplishments in the entire year. The only thing she really accomplished was a bronze at Nationals and winning the Olympics. Huge accomplishments nonetheless, but still.

Fine, you don't think winning a bronze (OR a silver) medal at a Nationals along side one's Olympic gold is worth something, tell Sarah to give the Sullivan back.

[kwanette]

The award is for the year 2002, it is not for a season. (Skate Canada was in 01). Just to clarify.

[proam]

Sarah is one outstanding young lady, which is why she received this award, it is very clear to me. She is an excellent role model for young children.
No matter what she decides for her future, you just know she will excel.

A fan from the very beginning and never once disappointed. :bow: :)

[valuvsmk]

Congratulations to Sarah!

Dave, as you will read elsewhere from me online (just as I have read your opinion elsewhere), I disagree with your opinion but respect your consistency regarding other winners that don't meet the criteria of "amateur" to you, and you are at least citing specific cases to make your argument instead of just throwing a hissy fit as some other Internet posters have.

The only one I question is the Tonya/Nancy comparison. Dan Kerrigan worked multiple jobs to help meet Nancy's expenses, and I remember reading that Nancy also worked herself during her eligible career. I don't believe she received endorsements of any great size before 1992, and certainly not much compared to today even after the 92 Olympics.

I do remember reading that Tonya received some sort of substantial monetary gift at least once from George Steinbrenner. To be perfectly honest, triple axel aside, I am not certain that a lot of companies would have been lining up to offer Tonya endorsements even before "the whack heard around the world", if they knew anything about her allegedly poor practice habits.

[CMc]

Originally posted by vesperholly
Plus, how many endorsements does Kwan really do? The Chevy stuff is almost assuredly connected to the USFSA. Most of the money Kwan earned was probably due to appearance fees, paid contracts (like COI/USFSA cheesefests) and prize winnings. I didn't see her on the side of a bus hawking staplers, or in the pages of SKATING magazine peddling beef... :roll:

Jocelyn

No, but she probably peddled cheese??

[purplecat]

Congrats to Sarah! :)

[drdave98]

Originally posted by valuvsmk
Congratulations to Sarah!


The only one I question is the Tonya/Nancy comparison. Dan Kerrigan worked multiple jobs to help meet Nancy's expenses, and I remember reading that Nancy also worked herself during her eligible career. I don't believe she received endorsements of any great size before 1992, and certainly not much compared to today even after the 92 Olympics.

I do remember reading that Tonya received some sort of substantial monetary gift at least once from George Steinbrenner. To be perfectly honest, triple axel aside, I am not certain that a lot of companies would have been lining up to offer Tonya endorsements even before "the whack heard around the world", if they knew anything about her allegedly poor practice habits.

Valu,
I think you misread my comment about Nancy/Tonya or I wasn't clear. I didn't say Nancy received endorsements, but I implied she would get them after the Olympics if she won the Gold Medal. So, Tonya's husband was thinking about after the Olympics. If Tonya can't beat Nancy, then Nancy will get all the post olympic endorsements on her way to pro skating. Jeff G. didn't want that to happen, so he planned to takeout Nancy so Tonya could have a better chance of winning the Olympics. Sorry if I wasn't as clear in my original post. I agree with you that Mr Kerrigan worked hard just like Mr Hughes and Mr Kwan all worked hard to get their girls to the top before endorsements were allowed. Too bad Jeff G and Tonya didn't want to work hard too.

[Norlite]

Originally posted by drdave98
I think next year, all the real amateurs who are nominated for this award should decline because it's apparent it's not for real amateurs anymore. Why should all these college kids bust their butt against endorsed athletes? Where is the fairness? How can a college wrestler like Cael Sanderson compete against the endorsment money endorsed athletes are reaping? I realize Sarah didn't have that many endorsements in 2002, so she could be closer to an amateur than say Michael Johnson or Michelle Kwan when they respectively won their awards. So, I won't say Sullivan took a big step backwards, but figure skating has long become a professional sport with the endorsements and to have two figure skaters win back to back makes the Sully award look more and more like a professional athlete's award rather than an amateur athletes award.

While I understand what drdave is trying to say, and agree that money is a huge, if not one of the biggest factors in whether or not a skater makes it to the elite level, I have to point out that there is no purely amateur athlete in college sports either.
Many times a basketball, or football player's future career depends on whether or not they get a scholarship, and other day to day expenses paid for by the college that wants them on their team.
Many an athletes career ended because this financial offer was not forthcoming.

While I agree it is in no way the amount of money we are talking about in skating.....it is still money for sport changing hands.

[drdave98]

Norlite,
Before I reply, I want to make it clear i'm going to use Michelle Kwan as an example and in no way am I saying anything she did is wrong. I think she and Sarah are victims of the AAU's poor judgement of what is and isn't an amateur.

Scholorships and endorsements are different. Scholarships are the rewards of being a student as well as an athlete. Scholarships tend to pay for the expenses of the student athlete and they never amount to millions of dollars where the student athlete can put their parent on the payroll i.e. Danny Kwan. (Didn't Michelle say she would dock her Dad $X amount for every cigarette he smoked??) Plus, the scholarship foundation doesn't reap any revenue from the athlete's likeness. If the Rotary Club gave a scholarship to Cael Sanderson, you won't see Cael doing a commercial for the Rotary Club or putting a Rotary Club patch on his jersey. In most amateur sports, it's okay to receive private sponsor money as long as the athlete doesn't have to endorse the private sponsor. Example: Tim Goebel has a wealthy private sponsor who doesn't profit from his likeness and that's okay.

There are many legal ways to support an amateur. Scholarships, grants, private sponsors (aka rich family friends) and various other methods that don't reap any benefits from the athletes likeness. Endorsements are the #1 enemy to the amateur athlete. That's what basically makes them amateur. They don't sell their likeness for endorsers to make money. When you see Cael Sanderson wearing a nike uniform, that's the university endorsing Nike and getting paid by Nike. Not Cael Sanderson. Cael Sanderson can't put his Dad on the payroll with the stipends the University gives Cael for living expenses. Cael also can't hire the best trainers. He's at the mercy of what the University provides. In the case of Michelle Kwan, she had the luxuary of buying any choreographer, any coach, and any Vera Wang dress (I realize Vera gave Michelle the dresses, but you get the point of the example). Money was not an issue for Michelle Kwan.

In the case of figure skaters, if Disney, Wheaties, Caress, etc were to pay the USFSA instead of Michelle Kwan and Sarah Hughes, then I would consider Michelle and Sarah amateurs. Since the checks are made out to them, they are really professionals regardless of how the USFSA wants to spin their charter. The AAU has dropped the ball when it comes to looking closely at the nominees for the Sully award. They should see the USFSA is doing something wrong by allowing their athletes to be endorsed while still calling them amateurs.

I'm not blaming Michelle or Sarah. They are victims. I bet deep down, they feel sorta odd when accepting the award knowing the runner-ups didn't have endorsments and were really truely amateurs.

I hope nobody takes offense to my usage of Michelle as an example. I've done this before at MKF and they flew off the handle saying I was bashing her. In no way am I bashing Michelle. She is the perfect example of an endorsed amateur. I realize there were others, but since this is a figure skating forum, using a skater makes the analogies a lot easier to understand. In no way, am I saying Sarah and Michelle were the only endorsed Sullivan winners. There were others and that's why I claim the Sully award isn't "all that" anymore. It used to mean something when an amateur was an amateur. Now, it's a joke having endorsed athletes competeing against true amateurs for an amateur award.

Off my soapbox. LOL

[Norlite]

Exellent points, well taken drdave.


One tiny thing I would like to point out though, regarding who the cheques are written to. I don't know how the USFSA handles this, but I would assume that it is similar, due to the fact that they have to keep their athletes "Olympic eligible" as well.

No cheques, whether for endorsments, performing, or anything else related to skating, are made to Skate Canada members over the amount of $2500.00.

Money earned over that amount is paid directly to Skate Canada, which is then put into the Athletes Trust.

That money is then funnelled back to the athlete in the form of various grants, i.e. high performance, travel, education etc. which are available to all National Team members, and the rest is held in trust for the skater.


Thats not to say that they are amateurs the way some other Olympic athletes are truely amateurs. I agree with your basic points.

[drdave98]

Norlite,
It would be a surprise if Disney made the checks out to the USFSA instead of Michelle Kwan.

Does anyone know if all of Michelle Kwan's endorsements are routed through the USFSA first? I don't know one way or the other. I just assume they are directly written to the skater.

[adrianchew]

Norlite - if I'm reading it correctly, no Canadian skaters will ever get most of the money out of endorsements/etc until after they quit skating/turn pro, since the monies are held in a trust fund for them. I find this very interesting - if anyone could clarify more into the Skate Canada processes.

I would be very much for such a system to be put into place in the US since this will pretty much ensure that atheletes who remain eligible are doing so for competition and not because of any paychecks they might be reaping from the sport. I have to wonder if the USFSA kept the bulk of the money in a trust and all that can be taken out is directly related to skating expenses, how many of the top few skaters will remain eligible (out of love for the sport and competition) and how many will turn pro (if for nothing else than to collect on their trust fund).

A skater could still retire very rich if they build a nice big trust fund, but those who want the money aren't likely to wait vs. those who would choose to stay eligible because they love the sport.

So it indeed sounds like the Skate Canada system might be the solution to all the cries in the US that some skaters should turn pro - it'd be interesting to see how many would turn pro, if they were not able to access lots of monies upfront from their skating by remaining eligible.

[vesperholly]

Originally posted by CMc
Fine, you don't think winning a bronze (OR a silver) medal at a Nationals along side one's Olympic gold is worth something, tell Sarah to give the Sullivan back.

Calm down. I never said she wasn't a deserving recipient, or that she should give it back. I think that the other nominees (particularly Natalie Coughlin) had more outstanding achievements in 2002, that's all.

Jocelyn

[drdave98]

Adrian,
While holding the money in a trust fund is a quick solution for restricting the endorsements during amateur skating, it doesn't stop the problem. Skaters will gladly remain amateur and let that trust fund grow. The simple way around it is to take out personal loans from banks using that trust fund as collateral. Take out 20 platinum cards and max them out over the duration of the amateur skating. When the skater retires, they just pay off all the loans and all is good. If the endorsement money went into a fund controlled by the USFSA and could be alloted to other skaters, then it would be okay to have endorsements because it helps all US skaters. Not just the one skater. This would be like a college football team being sponsored by Nike. Nike gives the college money and that money is used for the sports program and scholarships. The star Quarterback doesn't get to put his parent on the payroll.

When the endorsement checks go directly to the skater and they freely spend it as they wish, it makes the skater look like a professional and not an amateur.

[Norlite]

Originally posted by adrianchew
Norlite - if I'm reading it correctly, no Canadian skaters will ever get most of the money out of endorsements/etc until after they quit skating



I'm not sure if I would say "most" of their money. I'm sure someone like Elvis, who had mega endorsement deals while eligible, received a lot of his money back, before turning pro. Probably most of his money.

I have, however, hired many national team members, and written many cheques for their participation in skating shows, and appearances, and have been advised by Skate Canada on this. If the amount is under $2500. the skater can receive the money directly. Over that amount, the cheque must be written to Skate Canada.

I would also like to hear from someone in the US who knows. I have to believe that this is done by the USFSA as well, as I said before, to keep their skaters "amateur" or Olympic eligible.

[NormaRae]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by drdave98
This would be like a college football team being sponsored by Nike. Nike gives the college money and that money is used for the sports program and scholarships. The star Quarterback doesn't get to put his parent on the payroll.
QUOTE]

I think Universities and the USFSA are already making plenty of money off the sweat and labor of these young athletes. Why do you think they should make even more?

[Lark]

Originally posted by vesperholly
Calm down. I never said she wasn't a deserving recipient, or that she should give it back. I think that the other nominees (particularly Natalie Coughlin) had more outstanding achievements in 2002, that's all.

Jocelyn Saving a whole sports image in the eyes of the general public is less outstanding than something else? I am not sure what the others did, but I am certain it could barely compare.

[drdave98]

Originally posted by NormaRae
[QUOTE]Originally posted by drdave98
This would be like a college football team being sponsored by Nike. Nike gives the college money and that money is used for the sports program and scholarships. The star Quarterback doesn't get to put his parent on the payroll.
QUOTE]

I think Universities and the USFSA are already making plenty of money off the sweat and labor of these young athletes. Why do you think they should make even more?

Norma,
Where do I say I think the colleges should get more? The quantity isn't the issue.

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by NormaRae

I think Universities and the USFSA are already making plenty of money off the sweat and labor of these young athletes. Why do you think they should make even more?

Not sure about the universities but the USFSA is mainly volunteers - not sure if they have some salaried staff, but most of what is made is funneled back into skating development programs, team envelopes, etc. No one is getting rich off skaters - only the skaters themselves are getting rich... I say there's something wrong with this being an eligible sport because of the monetary rewards that a select few can reap while staying eligible.

[winston]

YEAH THATS TRUE THE OLYMPIC GOAL MEANS NOTHING YOU ARE RIGHT WHO EVER POSTED THAT. THEIR WAS A GREAT DEAL OF SARCASM IF YOU WERE WONDERING.

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by winston

YEAH THATS TRUE THE OLYMPIC GOAL MEANS NOTHING YOU ARE RIGHT WHO EVER POSTED THAT. THEIR WAS A GREAT DEAL OF SARCASM IF YOU WERE WONDERING.

Please don't post in all caps in the future. You have been warned. ~adrianchew~

[Lark]

What about Mia Hamm, Tony Hawke, Anna Kournakova, Johnny Mosely, etc etc. etc.? Are they considered ametuer or pros? Because I know some of them most likely make more than most skaters, yet would be allowed to participate in the Olympics.

[drdave98]

Lark,
The USOC has lost all control and succumbed to corporate dollars by allowing professionals in the Olympics. I totally hate the Dream Team basketball running over every nation and their pride in doing so.

[BABYSKATES]

Anna Kournakova is a pro tennis player...

As for Sarah and the Sullivan, the USFSA website article stated the criterion. I don't see Sarah as the savior of skating but love her or hate her Sarah fits the criterion well. She has a squeeky clean image, is a good student, is an extremely accomplished athlete and appears to live up to the ideals of good sportsmanship. One doesn't have to like her to see that. I would love for my child is able to make her dreams come true and have the level of success that Sarah has achieved, but more importantly, I hope she is like Sarah in that she works for a life that gives her nothing but open doors and wonderful choices. Sarah is a nice kid who is doing well for herself. She's a great role model and I say, "Way to go, Sarah!!!"

[irene2020]

"A liitle bit closer to amateur"...I think you are or you are not...It's kind of like being "a little bit pregnant"....

I agree. Sarah is clearly an amateur. She goes to school full-time. I think when you have a full-time job or student status, you should be counted as an amateur, and should not be penalized (as a non-amatuer) for achieving so much oustide of having a full-time job or being a full-time student.

Now, if you don't have a full-time job or is not a full-time student, or your only full-time job is basically your skating or making money from you skating or skating fame, then clearly you are not an amatuer skater. And shame on those who took the sullivan award from the deserving amateur atheletes like Sarah.

************************************************** **

If Sarah did not achieve a lot in 2002, who did? And honestly, the olympic gold IS the most difficult to win - because everyone puts up the best at the olympics. You can win with a so so program at the world sometimes. But at the Olympic, everyone desires this gold the most and so it is the most difficult to win. Well, this is obvious from how sarah needed to land two triple-triples plus a program with detailed choreography to win the program. I don't remember anyone landing two triple-triple to win a world. You can't compare a grand slam with say a local Toronto tennis match.

In addition, other posters have already posted many other reasons - her many other achievements both inside and outside of figure skating. Sarah is clearly a very well-rounded full-time student who excels in figure skating as well as in school, and in many other things. I think after the sullivan award received many complaints and attacks last year, they are a lot more careful in who they chose to give the award to this year. And they make the right choice.

[kwanette]

Sarah does not "go" to school "full time." How would that be possible with her trips to Hackensack and training regimen?(Not to mention her travel schedule). I am not faulting her for that....When you get to the "elite" level, you are either tutored, home-schooled, or you pick up assignments in person or on-line.

This does not minimize Sarah's achievements...or anyone else's...It's just the way things are now.