Michelle's Jumps are "Small"???

[missmarysgarden]

http://espn.go.com/media/oly/2002/0216/photo/a_hughes_i.jpg

I love this picture... It says volumes. Sorry I couldn't make this a link. It's a cool pic.

[Excidra]

Now compare her jumps to the likes of Slutskaya and Volchekova. Nobody said her jumps should be big and huge but I know people have said her jumps are small when compared to the two above skaters I mentioned. But her jumps tend to be bigger than they were before when she has so much speed going into it(worlds 2001 is a good example).

[luv2lutz]

WOW - cool picture! thanks

[missmarysgarden]

What I really like about this picture is that it shows her perfect form - straight legs, cross at the ankles, no wrapping of leg, no twisting of her body. This is textbook.

[adrianchew]

The problem with a photo is that its static - one moment in one jump isn't representative of a skater's overall performance and some jumps are higher than others. You've got to see many jumps in motion, not static, to truly gauge.

[speedy]

Has somebody said her jumps are small? :lol: That's really reaching. Cool pic, looks like she and Sarah are in some ice stunt with Sarah skating under her jump.

[missmarysgarden]

???? Adrian, she might me lower at some point on her way down, but she is AT LEAST this high as she appears in this picture, don't you agree? If you look, her thighs are almost board high.... that's high enough for me.

True, one needs to look at all of her jumps, all of time. And that's true for all skaters.

But I know from judging gymnastics training tapes that the eye doesn't usually catch the peak of jumps or leaps. There is something about the brain not registering the peak. We have tested it many times by watching leaps in regular motion and judging the degree of leg separation at the peak (i.e., was it 180 degrees or not - as required). Invariably, leaps that appear to be about 5-10 degrees short of 180 are actually 180 at their peak. The same is true in estimating the actual height of tumbling. Don't now exactly why, but its true. You can find the same thing is true if you play back skating jumps in slow or stop motion. Be honest with yourself in watching the regular speed - then watch it slow mo. A good example of this is the height of the split twist in pairs when it is shown in stop mo. It looks amazingly higher.

Of course this is true for all skaters. One of the things we have discovered is that gymnasts who sort of "fling" themselves into a position appear to be higher than those who do it with ease. Again, this is a brain thing. For that reason, I have frequently run Michelle's jumps in stop mo to find the actual peak height - and while there are sometimes "errors" when a take-off was too slow, I have found that it would be inaccurate to characterize Michelle's jumps as "low", even if they are not the highest. I can think of some rather high jumpers who have terrible form - "flingers" who sacrifice technique for height. I'm glad Michelle doesn't do that because the overall quality of her skating would suffer - as I believe it does in some other "high jumpers". Not all - but some.

[adrianchew]

You have to remember that peak height is less important in determining the size of a jump in skating... that's why no photo will work for skating... the size of a jump includes both height, distance, air time. It might be useful to determine the maximum split achieved in gymnastics though.

Try watching many of Michelle's 2-axels in slowmo or regular speed video, and you can see its "smaller" than either Sasha or Sarah's. Notice when she begins rotating on the jump, and so on. You're supposed to "step up" into an axel... something that Michelle doesn't do nearly as well, and as a result her rotation covers more of the curvature of the jump... which you see more of a "step up" then rotate higher up in the air, then land, with some others (closer to a cliff up, plateau rotate, cliff down).

A photo might be useful in determining correct air position, but you can't tell a small jump from it. Some skaters do go "high" but cover very little ice in the process... up, rotate, down.

[missmarysgarden]

I have no argument with that, Adrian.

On the other hand, Michelle obviously carries sufficient momentum to flow out of the jump - that momentum would not be there if she just went up, and then came down... as for example Sarah is wont to do at times - and carry no momentum through the jump.

I agree that the "perfect" jump rotates at the peak - and a delayed rotation is preferable to an early turn off the ice. This is also true in gymnastics. A perfect triple twist would have a "set" (rise to the peak before rotating) and would have a very fast, late initiated twist - AND would complete the twist as high as possible (stop the twisting action - and then land). This becomes more and more difficult to do as you increase the number of long axis rotations. Some skaters (and gymnasts) do a good job of delaying the initiation of the LA turn; but they pay for it on the other end - which results in a "cheated" jump - under rotation, falling, carving a tight arc (due to the physics of the LA turn).

So the question is - "What is the most important technique of the skill", or are they are equal. It seems that in practice, the most important part is completing the rotation and not falling - at least that's what the points seem to reflect. This is also true in gymnastics. Where the other factors come into play is "all things being equal (fully-completed rotation, not falling), how do the other technical parts of the skill rank in importance, or how should they rank in the judges mind, or do they all rank equally. I am assuming that there is no argument against completing rotation necessary to ratify the skill, and standing up necessary to avoid a big deduction...do you agree? So the next factor would be what? Air time? air position? flow out of jump?

In gymnastics, we have very clear direction. A good example would be in vault - a front handspring with a full twist - to go with a simple skill. In gymnastics, height is valued over distance. In Vault, the deduction for height is up to .5; for distance, up to .3. Early turn is up to .3; failure to complete the turn before landing - up to .3 between (with .3 being 90 degrees short - 90 degrees short, and the lesser skill is rewarded, i.e. a handspring full would become a handspring half, with a deduction of up to .3 for an overturn - all turns must be exact to receive no deduction. Then there are specific deductions for the body position, i.e., if the trunk drops on the landing, the deduction is up to .3. There ar deductions for steps as they indicate lack of control and exactness, and of course a fall (.5).

So if you look at what counts most, (1) completing the final rotation within 90 degrees (or else no credit); (2) standing up; (3) height; turns completed as near the peak as possible; (4) body position (3 different up to .2 deductions for legs, trunk and arms each); (5) control of landing (no steps, dropping trunk, directional problems, balance errors); (6) distance.

So how would you rank the value of the technical components of a triple lutz?

[loveskating]

I've said and I'll say it again, I don't think Kwan could even remotely be classified as a great jumper or as having "the best" jumps! Of course, I don't derive my analysis from one picture, rather from repeated viewing of tapes and a few live performances.

As I understand it, the most basic "differentiating" rules for marking the quality of jumps landed are:

1. Speed into and out of: Kwan, ok, not great, compare Sasha's and Michelle's axel to see big difference, not to mention other skaters.

2. Taking off and landing on the correct edge: Kwan is steller on this.

3. Proper backspin position in the air (JUST like a backspin): Kwan is good, not great, see Irina and Sasha for greatness on this

4. Height of jump: Kwan is similar to Sasha, much less than Irina

5. Ice covered of jump: Kwan is similar to Sasha, much less than Irina

BTW, telegraphing a jump is a presentation issue (Irina)

Of course, there are many other issues with respect to specific jumps, say as to the lutz: flutzing or taking off on the flat as opposed to a true lutz, and not using the picking leg like a pole vault etc.

Additionally, there is a ranking order for the difficulty of the jumps, and this applies pretty much to the combination jumps as well...what is different is that a differential is that the SECOND jump in the combination needs to be similar in size to the first one. On the 3/3 toe loop, Kwan is steller on this, but the fact is that the 3/3 toe loop is RANKED as the easiest combination.

As I understand it, the jumps are ranked in order of difficulty:

3 axel but no "whole package" lady skater is landing them
so...

3 lutz
3 flip
3 loop
3 salchow
3 toe loop

2 axel

Thus, the 3/3 toe loop is the easiest combination to do (and that is probably why some pros, if you notice, can still do it, and cannot land a single 3 axel or a lutz). These usually can also do a 3 sal, sometimes in combination.

[Nigel Tufnel]

Where did someone say Michelle had the "best" jumps or even was a great jumper? I love that pic. Michelle has beautiful form in the air.

loveskating, I don't think it's the best analogy to say that some pros can still do triple toe/triple toe but can't do triple axels or lutzes- perhaps it's simply that combinations are their strength. People have different strengths in jumping. Some are great at combinations (usually those with small jumps, but not always, since a lower jump requires less energy and thus more energy is available for the second jump; also there's a "skipping stones" effect)- case in point, Tara. Tara didn't exactly have great jumps; they were small and some had terrible technique and often landed on the wrong edge, but she used the lack of height and turned it into her greatest strength- combinations. Sasha may be able to do a quad sal, but she hasn't yet shown that same ability for combinations that Tara had. That's fine; solo jumps may be her strength and I hope she might be able to do a quad in competition one of these days- not everyone has to be a Combination Goddess; the sport would be boring if that was the sole standard of worth.

As for Michelle, I often wonder if she exerts herself too much on the first jump and thus isn't able to do the second jump as well as those who use less energy on the first jump. Or perhaps she never found the exact timing she needs, just like her spins. But she has other strengths that she's developed, and they're working for her.

Yes, the jumps are ranked loosely in that order, but the degree of difficulty isn't the same for everyone. As a skater, I learned a triple lutz long before I learned a triple toe, and even though I had good height and technique and a pure lutz, I was always terrible at combination jumps.

I think all the aforementioned ladies (Michelle, Sasha, Irina) have roughly equal-quality jumps.

[quarkiki2]

Originally posted by Nigel Tufnel
Where did someone say Michelle had the "best" jumps or even was a great jumper? I love that pic. Michelle has beautiful form in the air.

I'll second that. I'm not sure even Kwan fans will assert that she has the best jumps out there. Though her jumps really aren't scraping-the-bottom-of-the-barrel bad, either. I think they're just solid. The single jumps don't have the highest height nor the longest length nor the fastest rotations, but generally, there's not REALLY anything to complain about. Except mayber the flutz/lutz/flat issue and her's is no worse than Slutskaya's, Cohen's, Hughes, or Suguri's (aka the podium finishers in the Olympics and last year's worlds + Cohen).

Except for the issues with the flip last year, she usually doesn't under or over-rotate a jump. I'm not sure I can ever remember her landing on the wrong edge. She usually has approximately the same speed coming into and out of the jump and has generally good flow in her landings -- very rarely will she come to a complete stop on a jump. When she's having an "on" performance like at Nationals this year she has such confidence and steadiness going into the jumps that a fall would be unexpected; she also has very good runout in "on" performances.

To me that adds up to solid. Not stellar, not terrible, not inspiring, not lacking -- just solid.

[missmarysgarden]

I'm certainly not asserting that Michelle has the "best" jumps. I am just responding to some past use of the adjective "small" to describe Michelle's jumps.

"Smaller" than Irina's tops; or Volchkova's; and some others - but not "small". As someone else said - Tara had "small" jumps.

I think the quality of Michelle's jumps, on the whole, are better than Irina's or Sarah's -Please hold the vegetables! - And specifically, my judgment, which is personal, is because she has the best balance of athleticism and aesthetics - her jumps are balanced in that she doesn't sacrifice form and technique for height/distance/rotation. The athleticism of her jumps may not be the best, but they are certainly good, and aesthetically, they are superior to Sarah's (bad swinging leg, dead landings) or Irina's (same reasons + telegraphing). I just prefer a performance with a balanced execution of the technical reglement. My question was, does anyone support overlooking errors or deficits in technical requirements as long as the jump is "big" and stood up? I'm asking this question out of curiosity because I am a judge, and I'm curious about what you know and how you feel as knowledgeable skating fans.

My feeling is that if there is a rule in the book regarding judging of any sport, and it isn't applied consistently, it shouldn't be there. Otherwise, its a slippery slope. Too often it seems to me that the rules of FS are not consistently applied, and that's why FS has ended up with a secretive, free-for-all judging system. It just seems so odd to me that FS judges don't have to justify their application of the rules. Gymnastics judges certainly do.

If rules are applied fairly and consistently based on what an athlete does in competition - not what they used to do, or planned to do, or did last week, or what they've done over 3 years, or because it was their turn, or because one judge thinks completion is important and another doesn't - the athletes will improve, and the sport will benefit. As long as jumps are enough - no matter how ugly; or artistry excuses the 4 triple program, why should the athletes work for excellence all around?

[missmarysgarden]

I am a GYMNASTICS judge - sorry - it looked like I was claiming to be a FS judge.

[hoptoad]

missmarygarden--I LOVE your comments and the way they focus the discussion. Thanks!
But I know from judging gymnastics training tapes that the eye doesn't usually catch the peak of jumps or leaps. There is something about the brain not registering the peak. We have tested it many times by watching leaps in regular motion and judging the degree of leg separation at the peak (i.e., was it 180 degrees or not - as required). Invariably, leaps that appear to be about 5-10 degrees short of 180 are actually 180 at their peak. The same is true in estimating the actual height of tumbling. Don't now exactly why, but its true. You can find the same thing is true if you play back skating jumps in slow or stop motion. Be honest with yourself in watching the regular speed - then watch it slow mo. A good example of this is the height of the split twist in pairs when it is shown in stop mo. It looks amazingly higher.
Of course this is true for all skaters. One of the things we have discovered is that gymnasts who sort of "fling" themselves into a position appear to be higher than those who do it with ease.
I found this part especially interesting. I take it one purpose of this training for gymnastics judges is to help them compensate for this "optical-brain" illusion and to encourage them not penalize smooth execution?

[missmarysgarden]

Yes, that's why we do it. We judge hundreds of video tapes every year in informal "clinics" (groups of judges who get together to "practice judge" and then criticize our judging in order to be more accurate and consistent. It is so easy to get cocky, especially after many years of judging, and be "sure" of what we see. There is tons of research to back up this phenomenon. A good example is the "witness" syndrome. Bias actually changes perception. So because we are dedicated to being fair and consistent, we spend the off season catching ourselves in mistakes. It keeps us humble. Because gymnastics judging panels have to conference to resolve unacceptable differences in scores, we are more likely to catch ourselves when we err. Underlying the scoring system is that borderline cases are resolved in the favor of the gymnast. i.e., was that turn 90 degrees short? or was it 85? Unsure? Give credit for the skill and deduct .2. If you don't give credit, it would be a lower base score, minus .2. Not a huge difference, but giving credit for the skill and taking a deduction is the fair thing to do if you aren't absolutely sure. And if you practice regularly, you know that there is a good chance that in slo-mo, she might have had those extra 5 degrees. We are human, but we try so hard to be fair to every athlete.

[Excidra]

MissMary,

Michelle's jumps better than Irina's?8O The last thing we need in skating is a gymnastic judge disguised as a figure skating judge. As for Irina having bad technique on her jumps, that's a first. I know that she tends to telegraph some of her jumps(lutz/flip) at times but it's not like the other top ladies don't suffer from it either.

Soon we might see a double back-flip right into a 3lutz/3axel. Now how would the judges be able to judge that difficult move.:D :D :P ;)

[missmarysgarden]

I'm sorry to have annoyed you, Excidra. But I have not disguised myself as an FS judge. I have been talking about the human process of "judging" and the fair application of principles. I have been asking, not telling, how FS is or should be judged. I have been asking whether or not judges should be held accountable for their judgments. I have been asking whether or not there are specific technical requirements, and whether or not FS judges are free to ignore them if they wish. And I have stated that all humans (as opposed to machines) need to be aware of their bias, because we all have them. That's the first principle of fairness. And if a judge wants to be as fair as possible, they need to "check" themselves frequently to see if they are seeing things as they are, or as they wish they were.

These are some pretty basic principles of judged sports. I am the first to admit that I am not an expert on figure skating, just a lifelong fan who travels to competitions regularly. I've been involved in judged competitions of one kind or another for my whole adult life - in dance as a participant, teacher and judge; in gymnastics as a coach and judge; with horses as a competitor, trainer and equitation teacher, and (don't laugh - judging field trials - I also compete my dogs in trials).

There are many avid, respectful FS fans among my lifelong gymnastics friends - and we have had great discussions with FS athletes and fans at competitions - comparing our sports, the hard work and dedication of our athletes, and our desire for fairness in judging. I can't think of any instance in which any of my gymnastics friends were rude to our new FS friends in our mutual discussions. What are you so hot about, Excidra? I made it clear that in gymnastics, a triple twist, completed and landed, would still receive deductions for all the other technical requirements of the skill - and it could end up with less value than a double twist with good form. I asked if that was true in figure skating judging. I think its very rude to mock me for asking.

By the way, a dog who retrieves a bird perfectly to hand, but gets a zero in "style" (the canine equivalent of presentation), gets a zero as his total score is disqualified.

[Kemy]

I believe Miss Mary explained her position well. Some might not agree, but it was very well said. Her explanation was very well thought out.

I would have to say that Michelle, while not having the highest jumps, does indeed have rather smooth jumps. Her smooth runouts are often highlighted in her programs, for example her second lutz in her LP this year. The choreography calls for the runout to be held for effect.

Irina many times does have a problem with her runout, but her power in staying on her feet through her rough landings is very impressive.

I guess, like everything else it seems, it's all a matter of taste. There's a way to score for the quality of the jump, but maybe some judges like height more than runout and maybe some don't.

Also, Missmary never claimed to be a figure skating judge, but I feel gymnastics and figure skating are related somewhat. Both judge the technical and artistry of performances. Both are trained in much the same manner. Both have a trained eye when it comes to watching performances of the same nature.

[missmarysgarden]

A friend just emailed me to remind me that the boards at SLC were 5 or 6 inches higher than at most competitions, and that Michelle could barely get her foot on the board to stretch. Hmmmm - thigh high on the boards?? That's pretty high... Can't compare her to anyone else in this picture and don't have anyone else up against the boards - so if you are judging, and you see thigh high on these boards - you call it - your eye will give you approximately 0.10 seconds to record it - "small"? - "average"? - "great"?

I retire.

[Chico]

I can't recall just who, my apologies, but I agree that the difficulties of jumps is somewhat personal. The jumps do have a skill order, but a skaters own personal order may be different. As a skater I know this is true for me. I agree that Michelle isn't the BEST jumper out there, but she is a great skating package. Skating is a package, and not just jumps. She is very consistent and good at all overall. Irena is a little jumping bean, but I would not call her a great skating package. This is my opinion. Sasha is better rounded this year, but she doesn't have the consistency yet. Sarah...such a good sport and hard worker, but although she has been consistent in the past her skills need work. I guess my big input here is that skating is a package. It's not the best spinner, jumper, footwork, etc. but the best overall. Enjoyed the photo.

Chico

[loveskating]

When it comes to Irina, mistakes she makes at times are blown into some kind of characteristic, while mistakes others make, like Kwan, are considered just that. This is hardly fair.

As between the two, Irina is by far the better jumper, from any standard (remembering that telegraphing is a presentation issue) and is in fact one of the great jumpers of the sport, having been the only woman ever to land a 3 lutz/3 loop, and at least 3 times in competition.

Its obvious that some jumps are easier for some skaters than others...but that is not relevant to the rules or the standards. It is only relevant to the individual skater and the judges do not and ought not take it into consideration at all. Too frigging bad if the salchow was Kristi's nemisis...doesn't mean she is not a great skater, but it DOES mean she had a lot of trouble with the salchow, and did not have a great salchow!!!

Apparently, difficult entries to jumps are beyond some skaters...does that mean that those who can do them ought not to get more credit? The rules contend otherwise, and I quite agree.

Also, people can like whatever they like aesthetically, but don't mistake those for the rules...and the rules are based on standards set by numerous skaters and all the skaters should be marked not based on their preferences but based on what they actually do on the ice in a given competition.

Yes, Kwan is a great, seminal skater, she has fabulous presentation, she made the second lutz necessary, she does a lot of things well, but she is simply not a great jumper relatively speaking in this sport and far from "the best". She is middle of the road on the jumps, I'd say, and as to combination jumps, she has some quantity, has landed a lot of 3/3 toe loops, but as to difficulty, not so.

Her spirals are truly great; her split falling leaf is truly great, and overall, her presentation by the rules is great...a great jumper she is not, nor is she a great spinner.

As to use of the word "small", well, skating is relative. there are basepoints. Compared to Tara, Michelle's jumps were big, which is IMHO why Michelle could beat Tara in the SP with only a 3 toe loop up against a pretty good flip...but compared to Irina, much less to Volchkova, or FUMIE, and others Kwan's jumps are small.

Its like when everyone flutzes except A.P. McDonaugh in the competition, she is going to be the basemark for a well done takeoff on the lutz...

[pink roses]

Thanks for posting the picture, Missmary.

[vesperholly]

I think we need to remember one thing: that picture was from practice, and most likely not in a run-through of her program. Perhaps her jumps are higher in practice than in competition because skaters are typically "fresher" in practice - they have time to rest a bit before each jump/spin etc.

However, I also think that Kwan does have just about perfect technique on her jumps. She might not be the "highest" or the "most difficult", but the technique is excellent.

Jocelyn

[bunghodog]

Michelle has the complete package great jumps, great spirals, good spins and great edgeing, no maybe she won't always win every competition she competes in, but she will always give a great show and the audience appreciates what she has given to the sport of ice skating.
good luck to all the ladies at Worlds.

[Kwadruple]

loveskating wrote:
"...having been the only woman ever to land a 3 lutz/3 loop, and at least 3 times in competition."

3 times? I believe she has only landed it once: the GPF in Lyon (and even then it was cheated by half of a turn). She had a good attempt at the 2001 Russian Nationals, but it was underotated and slightly two-footed. Every other attempt I have seen from her has resulted in a complete splat or a step out. Also, she is by no means the only female skater to land this combination. Mao Asad lands it on a regular basis, and even throws a 3toe onto the end when she feels comfortable. Miki Ando has landed 3lutz/3loops with better rotation and runout than Slutskaya's several times this season. Do your research next time before you start throwing out numbers.

I think Irina's edge jumps are all spectacular. Her 3loop and 3sal are gorgeous jumps with great height, distance, and runout. I also like the way she floats into the double axel. Her toe jumps, specifically lutz and flip are not always the best when you consider the stiffness with which she lands them most of the time. The same can be said about her combination jumps whether 3/2 or 3/3.

It's interesting that you are a gymnastics judge, missmarysgarden, because I consider jumps to be the most 'gymnastic' aspect of figure skating. The rotations in the air- let's be honest- have nothing to do skates or skating. There are two aspects of jumps that have to do with skating. One is how much spring a skater can get from the ice. This is where Irina, Volchkova, and (to a lesser extent) Sasha do very well. The other is the run-out achieved on the landing of the jump. This is where Michelle is the class of the field. In Gymnastics, any sort of twisting or tumbling in the air (for any of the events) is supposed to have a stiff landing with no motion. The advantage that skaters have is that they can use the ice to achieve a glide out of the difficult trick. This is what essentially brings the gymnastic trick into the realm of skating.

[missmarysgarden]

That's a very interesting observation. Because I coached gymnastics for many years as well as judging, the biomechanic similarities of some aspects of skating are interesting to me. There are some biomechanical "universals" regarding rotation - althought there are what one could call "modifying conditions". Some of the universals involve timing, shape, center of gravity, center of rotation, speed. Being on skates on ice is definitely a "modifying" condition affecting all the physical aspects of rotation (and also of height and distance). But it isn't "different", anymore than the rotation of divers or ballet dancers is "different" - its just that other factors such as drag (friction) or the lack thereof, will have an effect. I'm not at all pretending to know all about skating biomechanics, although I have recently begun to read some studies ("scholarly papers") about skating from a biomechanical point of view. It just interests me.

One thing - its not quite accurate to say that gymnasts are expected to have a "stiff" landing. If they land stiff, they will rebound out of control, because the physical force has to go somewhere. Actually, just as in and ankles at precisely the moment of landing to precisely the right degree (which dissipates the force). Gymnasts also need to be leaning slightly forward on BA turns because the rotational momentum will carry them backward as the landing stops the lower body - rotational movement is then transferred to the upper body (that's why most gymnasts will need to step back with one leg even after a good two foot landing - to "brake"). An LA turn must be "opened" or "checked" prior to landing, or the rotation will continue on the floor and cause loss of balance and directional errors and/or steps (or a mangled anterior crusciate). Same principal in skating re: the turns - its just that the ice is hard and the blade is thin! But the skater can glide backward as you say, and this absorbs the force gradually instead of suddenly. When a skater lands "static", its because there is no forward momentum to carry them on - its gone.

I see much more in skating as similar - leaps, turning leaps, etc. I dont' "rate" the two sports. I love both! I spend much of the money I earn judging gymnastics to attend FS competitions!

[Kwadruple]

Thanks for the reply. I should not have used the word stiff. I was trying to show the difference between the way gymnasts 'stick' their landings and the way skaters exit on a moving edge.

[Louis]

Slutskaya's 3lutz/3loop at 2001 Russian Nationals looked clean to me. Perhaps a bit cheated but on one foot. AFAIK, that and the GPF were the only times she landed it cleanly in competition.

Beatrisa Liang landed a clean 3lutz/3loop at U.S. Nationals this year. By my count, she was the third-ever woman to perform this combination in competition after Slutskaya and Miki Ando.

I believe Mao Asada's combo is actually 3flip/3toe/3loop.

[Kwadruple]

Louis, the combination you are referring to is actually a 3flip/3loop/3toe (the 3toe is the last jump- not the loop). At last year's japanese nationals, she landed the 3f/3r/3t as well as a 3l/3r as the next jump element. I have read practice reports of the 3l/3r/3t.

[Excidra]

Well there is no denieing that Slutskaya is one of the greatest female jumper in the world. She has been pulling off difficult 3/3s at young age and she continues to pull off difficult 3/3s even though she is considered the oldest single lady skater. When the Japanese ladies can still pull off difficult 3/3s beyond the age of 20, than I will mention them in the same breath as Slutskaya. But a few of them have been injured because of the difficult 3/3s they are attempting and that does not bode well for their future.

What I also find interesting is that the young Japanese ladies are attempting and practicing the same combos as Slutskaya has stated she is either planning in competition or doing it in practice. before 2001 worlds, Slutskaya stated that she was/is working on a 3sal/3loop/3toe combo. Her 3sal/3loop/2toe at 2001 worlds is evident of that.

It doesn't matter if these Japanese ladies can pull off a better 3lutz/3loop, but it's Slutskaya that paved the way for them and made the impossible 3lutz/3loop possible. Remember, an inventor is alway going to be surpassed at his own game(just ask Elvis), but it's that inventor that goes down in history as one of the best.

[i'm a cat WAW]

omg who ever said her jumps were small. her jumps are perfect. just because irina and volchkova fling themselves in the air and rotate doesn't mean they are better. michelles are great because her jumps are a part of her program. they are as graceful as her skating. JO MAMA! :o

[Kwadruple]

excidra said: "Remember, an inventor is alway going to be surpassed at his own game(just ask Elvis), but it's that inventor that goes down in history as one of the best"

Oh really? Ever heard of Eric Millot? He's the one who landed the first 3loop/3loop, but Tara is the one who's name will forever be attached to that impressive jump combo. I can't remember the last time I heard anyone utter the name Eric Millot. Kurt Browning was landing 3sal/3loops long before any of the ladies started doing them. Lipinski started doing them in 95, Slutskaya in 96 or 97, and Sarah Hughes in 99. I'm not sure if Kurt was the first to land the combo, but you don't hear anyone mention his name, or anyone other than those three ladies in relation to the 3sal/3loop combination. I think what matters the most is the consistency of the move. Eric Millot only landed the 3loop/3loop once, whereas Tara landed it in almost every competition from 97 to 98. Kurt Browning only landed the 3sal/3loop a few times in his career whereas Sarah Hughes has landed it ten or so times over the last few years. Miki Ando has already landed the 3lutz/3loop enough times that it can be considered a part of her repertoire. I wouldn't exactly say the same about Slutskaya's.

[proam]

Kwadruple, seems you are suffering from tunnel vision -as in focusing in on Ladies. There are other disciplines in skating.

A skating fan knows about Eric Milot’s triple loop/triple loop and the same can be said about Kurt’s triple sal/triple loop and other Kurt’s first.

[valuvsmk]

Originally posted by Excidra
Well there is no denieing that Slutskaya is one of the greatest female jumper in the world. She has been pulling off difficult 3/3s at young age and she continues to pull off difficult 3/3s even though she is considered the oldest single lady skater. When the Japanese ladies can still pull off difficult 3/3s beyond the age of 20, than I will mention them in the same breath as Slutskaya. But a few of them have been injured because of the difficult 3/3s they are attempting and that does not bode well for their future.

The oldest single lady skater? What about Julia Sebastyen, Elena Liashenko, and Jennifer Robinson? Aren't they all at least as old, if not older, than Irina?

I went to look for biographical information at the ISU website, but I am getting a screen that says "Technical Error". I guess I will get mandatory deductions! ;)

[Louis]

Slutskaya was the first woman to land a 3salchow/3loop. She did it at 1995 Trophee de France (called that due to a Lalique sponsorship issue that year) a month before Lipinski did it at Junior Worlds.

I believe that Slutskaya was the first *skater* to ever land the 3lutz/3loop in international competition. The only man I had seen do that combination was Shepherd Clark, who landed it with a turnout at 1996 U.S. Nationals. (Has any man done that combo since?)

[Kwadruple]

"Kwadruple, seems you are suffering from tunnel vision -as in focusing in on Ladies. There are other disciplines in skating."

Perhaps, but why don't you go through the old archives of the main internet skating boards and tell me how many posts you can find about Eric Millot and the 3loop/3loop. I'd be surprised if you found more than five over the past two years. Oh, and as for there being other disciplines- thanks for the tip. I always wondered why some of the women needed their boyfriends to come out and help them with the jumps.;)

[loveskating]

"3 times? I believe she has only landed it once: the GPF in Lyon (and even then it was cheated by half of a turn). "

No it wasn't...less than that...and all the ladies underrotate the loop part of loop combos, so that is the standard. Pehraps you have it mixed up with the second combination she landed at that GPF, a 3 sal/3 loop???

In any case, it certainly went into the record books...

I wasn't aware of the skater you mentioned...sorry about that...in any case, among the elite skaters with the whole package, Irina is the only one I am aware of to land a 3 lutz/3 loop to date.

I'm always happy to see people accomplish that, and more...no problem.

Thanks for your lecture...

[Excidra]

Whether or not Lipinski was attempting the 3sal/3loop before Irina(i'll give you the benefite of doubt)since we don't know who first attempted, practiced the element. But we do know that Slutskaya was the first lady to land a 3sal/3loop and has consistenly attempted and completed in competition.

Why are we comparing the men to the ladies? Whether Kurt was the innovator of the 3sal/3loop, Irina took it and in result became the first LADY to land the combo in competition. Shouldn't we judge Irina against the ladies?

valuvsmk,

is Jen Robinson, ELena Liashenko and Julia Sebestian pulling of a difficult 3/3? I thought so.
Whether or not people want to give Irina her credit, records prove that she is the innovator of these difficult 3/3s?

[Kwadruple]

"Why are we comparing the men to the ladies?"

Because the evolution of skating takes from all of the disciplines. For example, Bourne and Kraatz popularized hydro-blading in 1998 and we have seen it in all four disciplines since then.

"is Jen Robinson, ELena Liashenko and Julia Sebestian pulling of a difficult 3/3? I thought so."

That isn't really what your original post said though, is it? You just claimed that Slutskaya was considered to be the oldest lady competing. FYI, Jen Robinson has landed the 3sal/3loop this season.

"Whether or not people want to give Irina her credit, records prove that she is the innovator of these difficult 3/3s?"

Who are you asking? That last question makes absolutely no sense.

"Pehraps you have it mixed up with the second combination she landed at that GPF, a 3 sal/3 loop???"

I suggest you take another look at that Free Skate. The first 3/3 (lutz/loop) was majorly cheated. The second 3/3 (sal/loop) had a crazy landing, but complete rotation.

[valuvsmk]

Excidra,

I didn't understand that you meant Irina was the oldest eligible lady skater attempting those jumps. I didn't get that from the phrasing of your sentence. No offense meant by either of us, I am sure.

My hat is off to Irina for the hard work she puts into her skating and her longevity in the sport and her long list of achievements. Just because she doesn't happen to be my favorite skater doesn't mean I don't respect or like her in many ways.

[Skatingsarah]

I must say that normally michelles jumps are pretty equal they get the distance and the flow but if you look close enough (sometimes you lucky enough to get a side view of the jump) a quality jump is one that you can draw a half circle with their skates. It should be an arch ,sometimes I find her jumps more of straight across but their is no denying that she does pull it off but I have really noticed lately.

[Difranco79]

Does anyone know what 3/3's Sebestyen has attempted/landed in competition?

[Excidra]

Kwadruple,

The question mark at the end of that sentence is not supposed to be there, consider it a typo.

Regarding Jen's 3/3, are you talking about the 3sal/3loop Jen landed at Skate Canada? If you seen it, do you really consider it a 3/3? The loop was so badly under-rotated that I don't even think it was ratified by the ISU. Also, wasn't the loop slightly two footed?
But i'll give Jen her credit and say that it was a nice attempt at a difficult 3/3. But how many 3/3s has she landed in her career? I'm guessing one, but I would love to be corrected(As I like her very much).

Regarding Irina's majorly cheated(Kwadruple's words) 3lutz/3loop. Why would it be ratified by the ISU if it was that badly under-rotated?
It seems to me that your are giving every other lady credit for their under-rotated 3/3 but you are not doing the same for Slutskaya.

valuvsmk,

After I hit the send button, I realized that I had a few mistakes in my posts. I would like to re-phrase what I said and say that Slutskaya at age 24 is one of the few eligible ladies(Beyond 20) who is attempting and landing difficult 3/3s.

[Kwadruple]

Don't put words in my mouth. I never said Irina's combo didn't deserve credit. Cheated or not, it remains the most difficult 3/3 ever landed by a lady skater. I also never said Jen's 3/3 was clean. I said it was landed.

"Why would it be ratified by the ISU if it was that badly under-rotated?" Take another look at Nakano's 3axel at Skate America and
you'll find your answer to that question.

[loveskating]

Irina landed a 3 lutz/3 loop at GP Finals several years ago, in the LP, and also landed a 3 sal/3 loop in that same LP.

The first, a 3 lutz/3 loop, was not 'majorly underotated', it was less than by 1/4 if that...which is about standard for any 3 loop combination among the ladies, and she had a bad runout on the 3 sal/3 loop, which is a MINOR deduction.

Irina routinely lands clean 3 lutz/2 loops of very high quality, as to every differential rule, in her SPs, which is why she often wins the SP. The only mistake she occasionally makes on the 3 lutz/2 loop is a takeoff from the flat, which I'm told gets no deduction.

Who else these days routinely lands a 3 lutz/2 loop in the SP, much less one of such high quality?

Its in the PRESENTATION aspect that Irina has problems, specifically, fluidity and musicality, and telegraphing some of her jumps, as well as some turnout and line issues in some of her elements, most of which have been corrected substantially, but she is a great jumper...

Also, her jumps usually have great arc...and so do Sasha's for that matter, which is the result of very good technique and natural jumping talent...most of all a GREAT proper backspin position in the air.

I also admire Sarah for attempting and most often landing the 3 sal/3 loop throughout her amateur career...and Sarah does not get deductions on her loop combos, but she certainly does underrotate her loop - and she doesn't get deductions precisely because NONE of the ladies are landing loop combos without either underrotations or prerotations...so if people are going to cite Irina, they ought to cite Sarah as well.

Ladies used to get away with flutzing too...until some ladies started doing a true lutz, then their lutz became the basemark for a correct takeoff and deductions started appearing for the flutz. Its all RELATIVE.

[loveskating]

Actually, the jump in that pictue is not so huge...save it and then open it up in Windows Paint or any graphics program, and draw a line across the bottom of the blade on the right, which is the one closest to the ice, then draw a line down to the ice, and its not that big. Its about 2 1/2 or 2 3/4 of Kwan's skates in length off the ice (you can't draw the vertical line down to Sarah, because she is clearly about 5 or more feet in front of Kwan...need to draw it to the shadows of a horizontal quality closest to Kwan).

Then to really guage, one would need to find some pics of Irina or Volchkova etc. jumping, do the same thing, and compare.

BTW, that is NOT exactly a perfect proper backspin position in the air if that is the apex of the jump (hard to tell, she might be opening up already)...the left leg is crossed way over the other leg...and from a side view, you can bet there will be a lot of air...yet she is at a very straight position, so I assume it IS the apex of the jump?

[Kwadruple]

"The first, a 3 lutz/3 loop, was not 'majorly underotated', it was less than by 1/4 if that...which is about standard for any 3 loop combination among the ladies, and she had a bad runout on the 3 sal/3 loop, which is a MINOR deduction." This is simply untrue. Slutskaya practically landed in the opposite direction of the take-off. A half of a turn was a slight exaggeration on my part, but the cheat was at least 1/3 of a rotation. Secondly, there are NO DEDUCTIONS in a long program. Unless the skater omits a combo, violates the Zayak rule, or performs an illegal move, there are NO DEDUCTIONS. Yet, you go on and on about Sarah receiving no deductions for her combo, and Ira getting minor ones. Why not check out the ISU rule book and read the rules, it would do you a world of good, since it's clear you have a lot to learn about the way this sport is judged.

It IS possible to do loop combos with complete rotation. Watch Slutskaya at 97 Worlds, or Lipinski in the 98 Olympics.


"Ladies used to get away with flutzing too...until some ladies started doing a true lutz, then their lutz became the basemark for a correct takeoff and deductions started appearing for the flutz. Its all RELATIVE."

This also is not true. The earliest lutzes I have seen were from Denise Biellman and Liz Manley. In both cases, the jump seems to have taken off from a clear BO edge. The American ladies were not always so prone to flutzing either. Kerrigan, Harding, and Yamaguchi (though hers ventured onto the flat sometimes) generally had strong BO edges into their lutzes. Irina's lutz was pure outside edge before 99, but she changed the entry which increased consistency, but decreased the strength of her edge. Flutzing has always been around, even in the days of double jumps. The judges have always been aware of flutzing, and nobody was getting away with anything.

[Kemy]

You can't do that type of calculation without knowing exactly what part of the ice Michelle is over. At that angle, it is very difficult to relate the distanc eon the picture to the distance separating the skaters in actuality.

Also, I thought a proper jump was supposed to remain straight up and down throughout the entire jump.

[maple]

i also love that pic of michelle. her shoulders are nice and square, and her hips are even with her body's rotation.

i don't pretend to be an expert, but it's always my understanding that edge jumps are supposed to be slightly curved and toe jumps are supposed to be straight up and down.

I think kwan's jumps are a great example of this. her sal, loop, and axel are done in nice curving patterns, and her lutz, flip and toe are straight up/down with good spring. i find her landing positions with the straight back and high leg extended with good turnout to be just textbook perfect. i like how someone described them, they're very "solid".

isn't this also why many fans commend sasha's jumps? for all her jumps (except her gorgeous step-up axel) she has a relatively straight pattern going into it and a quick up/down jumping motion, with no curvature.

sarah's jumps have great air but almost all of the time she does them on a curve which lends to a tendency to have a small cheat on the landing.

i never really thought irina's jumps were all that great. the only thing she's got going for her is her tremendous spring, like a rubber band. i find her telegraphing and esthetically unpleasing landings too distracting.

thanks for whoever started this thread, btw, i'm learning a lot!

on a side note, here's something i've been wondering. it seems to me that sasha's jump landings are often 'rocky' (if you know what i mean) as in i often see her kind of rock or jerk sideways with her torso bent forward on her landing edge before gritting out a smooth runout. is there a particular reason for this? is it her technique? i thought for some time that maybe it was because her feet were crossed so snugly so that it is difficult to get them untangled in time to really have a sharp check out of the landing. if someone could clarify this for me that'd be great!

[bladegirl]

You guys need to go to the Worlds forum and check out Adrians lp practice reports. The Japanese and Russians are practicing 3/3's. I assume they would not be wasting valuable practice time if they didn't intend to use them. Michelle cannot medal, she is refusing to do any 3/3's. I call that arogant. Maybe she is expecting to be placed because she has been around so long and has won so many (pre major jump) Worlds before. If she doesn't medal, the Kwan fans will say it's political because of the war which is alot of very bad sour grapes. Get ready darlings, it's gonna be a bumpy couple of nights at Worlds next week.

[Dustin]

Originally posted by bladegirl
You guys need to go to the Worlds forum and check out Adrians lp practice reports. The Japanese and Russians are practicing 3/3's. I assume they would not be wasting valuable practice time if they didn't intend to use them. Michelle cannot medal, she is refusing to do any 3/3's. I call that arogant. Maybe she is expecting to be placed because she has been around so long and has won so many (pre major jump) Worlds before. If she doesn't medal, the Kwan fans will say it's political because of the war which is alot of very bad sour grapes. Get ready darlings, it's gonna be a bumpy couple of nights at Worlds next week.

Please tone it down a little bit. Bashing of any fans will not be tolerated further.

[bladegirl]

I am not bashing. Bashing would be calling someone a name or cursing at someone. I have been a board member for a long time a a huge fan of Adrian's. Don't accuse me of something I have never done. I am intitled to my opinion.

[Dustin]

Originally posted by bladegirl
I am not bashing. Bashing would be calling someone a name or cursing at someone. I have been a board member for a long time a a huge fan of Adrian's. Don't accuse me of something I have never done. I am intitled to my opinion.

Yes you are entitled but not if you attack the fans of skaters while posting your opinion.

[loveskating]

Originally posted by Kwadruple
"The first, a 3 lutz/3 loop, was not 'majorly underotated', it was less than by 1/4 if that...which is about standard for any 3 loop combination among the ladies, and she had a bad runout on the 3 sal/3 loop, which is a MINOR deduction." This is simply untrue. Slutskaya practically landed in the opposite direction of the take-off. A half of a turn was a slight exaggeration on my part, but the cheat was at least 1/3 of a rotation. Secondly, there are NO DEDUCTIONS in a long program. Unless the skater omits a combo, violates the Zayak rule, or performs an illegal move, there are NO DEDUCTIONS. Yet, you go on and on about Sarah receiving no deductions for her combo, and Ira getting minor ones. Why not check out the ISU rule book and read the rules, it would do you a world of good, since it's clear you have a lot to learn about the way this sport is judged.

It IS possible to do loop combos with complete rotation. Watch Slutskaya at 97 Worlds, or Lipinski in the 98 Olympics.


"Ladies used to get away with flutzing too...until some ladies started doing a true lutz, then their lutz became the basemark for a correct takeoff and deductions started appearing for the flutz. Its all RELATIVE."

This also is not true. The earliest lutzes I have seen were from Denise Biellman and Liz Manley. In both cases, the jump seems to have taken off from a clear BO edge. The American ladies were not always so prone to flutzing either. Kerrigan, Harding, and Yamaguchi (though hers ventured onto the flat sometimes) generally had strong BO edges into their lutzes. Irina's lutz was pure outside edge before 99, but she changed the entry which increased consistency, but decreased the strength of her edge. Flutzing has always been around, even in the days of double jumps. The judges have always been aware of flutzing, and nobody was getting away with anything.

You are mistaken...because its not about Biellman or Manly, Kerrigan, Harding who certainly had true lutzes...left outside edge takoff)...its about BASE POINTS... for instance, if EVERYONE in the competition flutzes, then what do you imagine the "best" lutz will be? Its all by the relative skating in the SPECIFIC competition.

Take U.S. Nationals 2003, I would suspect that the A.P. McDonough and whomever took off from the flat would be the only ones who did not get a deduction for flutzing.

And again, if you are going to bash Irina for any underrotations on the loop of a combination, you have to do the same regarding Sarah...

Similarly, look at the layback...in the period heading into Nagano, everyone at the top did the "dog leg" layback and so did Michelle Kwan...and they all got away with it ...that doesn't mean that prior to that period, there was no decent layback...it does mean that the judges dealt with the specific skaters relative to one another in specific competitions!

Thus, in that period, the dog leg layback was the standard...then came Angela Nikodinov, later Sarah and Sasha, and BOOM, Kwan changed her layback.

Yet ABC STILL runs that dog leg layback on their graphics intro to figure skating (not ESPN, however).

[Kwadruple]

"You are mistaken...because its not about Biellman or Manly, Kerrigan, Harding who certainly had true lutzes...left outside edge takoff)...its about BASE POINTS... for instance, if EVERYONE in the competition flutzes, then what do you imagine the "best" lutz will be? Its all by the relative skating in the SPECIFIC competition."

loveskating, dear, you said the women used to get away with flutzing until other women started doing a true lutz. This implies that you think the flutz came before the lutz, which is not true, and has nothing to with the statement you made above. When were women getting away with flutzing? True lutzes have always been around, and will continue to be the standard for the lutz jump. I have never seen a competition where everyone flutzed and the flutz was considered the standard for a skater's basemark. I'm thinking you dreamed that one up :roll:

"And again, if you are going to bash Irina for any underrotations on the loop of a combination, you have to do the same regarding Sarah.."

two points-
One: constructive criticism is not bashing. Don't be so sensitive. Two: I did not mention Sarah's combinations at all. No need to drag Sarah into the mud when she has nothing to do with the conversation. This is just your way of saying "It's okay, because Sarah does it too." That won't fly with me.

"Take U.S. Nationals 2003, I would suspect that the A.P. McDonough and whomever took off from the flat would be the only ones who did not get a deduction for flutzing." Congratulations, this is your first correct statement over the last three pages.:D Because this is the SHORT program, there ARE deductions. Nice observation.

[deanna35]

Good one, Kwadruple. ITA. :)

[adrianchew]

I think its time to put this topic to a rest. ;)