Sandbagging?

[BABYSKATES]

I just read an article on the USFSA website about the US Juvenile National Champion, Julia Vlassov. She states that she has a consistent triple toe and triple salchow and she demonstrated those skills during Junior Nationals at practices. Triples aren't allowed in Juvenile level programs in the US. In the article, Julia makes reference to the fact that many people think she is sandbagging. She says she will progress up the ranks at what ever pace she sees fit.

This girl might have easily won the Intermediate title this year. Her jumps would make her a solid Novice. Of course I wouldn't want Julia up against my little Juvenile because I think Julia's skills are far and away beyond the Juvenile level. On the other hand, there are age guidelines and Julia is only 12. There is no hurry to Senior anymore since they raised the age at which you can compete internationally.

Kimmie Meissner won the Novice title with a triple Lutz. A consistent triple Lutz will get you to Nationals as a Senior Lady (even in our Section which is top heavy with great Seniors). Kimmie is 14.

I know there is more to skating than jumps but these girls had to demonstrate strong presentation skills and good balance to their programs to win their levels.

I have been told that judges will penalize a skater if they feel the skater is hanging back when they should compete at a higher level. Obviously this didn't happen to Julia Vlassov or Kimmie Meissner.

What do you think?

[roogu]

I think if these girls have been competing at the same level for several years, and have been dominating at the national level for those same number of years, then yes, there is probably a case for sandbagging. I'm not sure if this is their first year or not at these levels, but judging how a majority of people haven't heard of these skaters before ... I dont' think they're sandbagging. Sure they're technically more advanced than the average girl competing at those levels, but that doesn't mean they should absolutely skate up.

[BABYSKATES]

I don't know about Kimmie Meisner but I know Julia Vlassov made it to Junior Nationals as a Juvenile last year. She placed 6th.

I wonder what the thinking is? I'm sure everyone wants to stand out from the pack and winning a National title, even Juvenile, brings with it some amount of prestige.

What's strange to me is how when you test for a level, what you have to do to reach that level has nothing to do with what is being done in competition at that level. For instance, there are only singles and an axel on the Juvenile freeskate. To be competitive at the Juvenile level, a skater must have all of their doubles and combinations. To reach the top nationally, you really need a double axel these days. Thank goodness they don't allow triples in Juvenile competition!

One of those things that make you go hmmmm.:??

[JD]

Babyskates, just had to reply to this one....

You are lucky-on the Juvenile and triples issue. In Canada, I don't think we have any limits on what a juvenile program can attempt. Hence there is lots of jump, jump, jump and not as much attempts at proper spin positions, edges, travelling in spins...but I digress....

Natalie Kwong, 1st at COS sectionals, placed second at nationals. She had if I remember, 1 or two double axels, a cheated triple sal, plus all the other doubles and a double double double combo.....Natalie is also about three times the size of my little one...

In Canada, I think at least the top two juveniles at Canadians landed a triple jump....and Natalie Kwong, who we saw at sectionals, also attempted that triple sal there, I think she might have landed it.... so thats why we haven't even bothered with juvenile. Reports seem to be, from people who monitor for SC that the juveniles were actually stronger than pre-novice this year, so I don't know how that will work out....

We've been told by her training centre, if this gives you any consolation, at least in Canada, that there is a sharp drop off in single ladies sometime between the juvenile and novice year. Not a drop off in their results, but a drop off in skaters period. I guess we'll find out if thats true or not...

[vesperholly]

Originally posted by BABYSKATES
I wonder what the thinking is? I'm sure everyone wants to stand out from the pack and winning a National title, even Juvenile, brings with it some amount of prestige.

Well, she may be landing triples but who really knows how solid her basic skating skills are? In this specific case we can infer that they're probably very good as in order to compete in Novice Pairs she would have to pass her Novice Moves. But hearing what jumps are being landed without being able to see how a skater *skates* can be very deceiving.

For example, having seen Kimmie Meissner skate last summer, I can tell you that her basic skating, choreographic difficulty and presentation is too "underdeveloped" to be competitive as a Senior skater, regardless of the triple lutz. And she was still having issues with the triple sal last summer, not to mention she does not have a loop or flip. There are certain expectations of how a Senior, Junior, Novice etc skater will look like - their command of steps, confidence in edges, power and flow. Meissner looked like exactly what she proved she is: a very talented *Novice* skater.

Originally posted by BABYSKATES
What's strange to me is how when you test for a level, what you have to do to reach that level has nothing to do with what is being done in competition at that level. For instance, there are only singles and an axel on the Juvenile freeskate. To be competitive at the Juvenile level, a skater must have all of their doubles and combinations. To reach the top nationally, you really need a double axel these days. Thank goodness they don't allow triples in Juvenile competition!


This has been said many times before: If the test standard reflected the competition standard, most people would not be able to pass the tests, which would discourage skaters. There should be a place within skating for "recreational" skaters and "competitive" skaters, and the test system provides goals for recreational skaters. I do not like the separate test streams as they are in Canada, however - it's gratifying (to me at least) to say I passed the same freestyle test that Michelle Kwan had to take, not a watered down test because I am not a competitive skater.

Jocelyn

[sk8er1964]

From what I got from the article, she is skating up to Intermediate at local non-qualifying competitions, but didn't want to test yet. Also, she has two solid triples and is working on two more. She apparently did those triples in warm up.

What other reason does she have for staying at Juvenile, when she clearly should be skating at a higher level (and already is outside of qualifying competitions) except to get a medal/name recognition? That, to me, is sandbagging.

JMO

[Mrs Redboots]

Without wishing to be rude, I'm just wondering why this thread is here, rather than on a more suitable forum; this one is for the skaters themselves - and I, for one, have no interest in American skaters of whom I have never heard (and maybe never will hear, if what you are saying is correct).

[flo]

Babyskates:
I know Kimmie very well. She is progressing at her rate, and rightfully so. The decision to test and not to test is up to the skater and her coach. If you have specific rule questions or concerns, then ask the USFSA. If it's just gossip or speculation, you may want to consider posting under another forum.

[dbny]

Originally posted by vesperholly
This has been said many times before: If the test standard reflected the competition standard, most people would not be able to pass the tests, which would discourage skaters.

I think it would be more satisfying and encouraging to more skaters if the competition standard reflected the test standard instead of the other way around. That way, skaters would have to test up to their abilities in order to compete, instead of skating down aka sandbagging. By holding the competition skills down to the level of the test skills, more people could compete with some hope of satisfaction (I'm not saying winning, just satisfaction). Of course, Juvenile would be no big deal in that case, so those wishing to be truly competitive would have to take the tests they are capable of passing in order to compete at the higher levels. Maybe the USFSA needs more test levels.

[skaternum]

Originally posted by dbny
Of course, Juvenile would be no big deal in that case, so those wishing to be truly competitive would have to take the tests they are capable of passing in order to compete at the higher levels. Maybe the USFSA needs more test levels.

I disagree. I think using tests to establish a minimum for a competition level is a reasonable thing to do. If you want to compete in an environment where the test standard is also the competition standard, then do ISI competitions.

Edited to add that I also think the original post speculating about specific skaters belongs in another forum.

[BABYSKATES]

Hmmm. Where should I have posted this? I'm pretty new to this board and judging by the two angry posts I just read, I guess I put this in the wrong place. I'm sorry.

I know how it feels when someone mentions a skater I care about and says something I perceive to be unkind. We know quite a few top skaters because my child skates in an area where a huge group of the National competitors come from. In rereading what I wrote, I apologize to Kimmie's friend. I didn't mean to speculate about her motives for staying Novice. I saw her skate in the exhibition after Nationals and thought she was wonderful. Actually, I didn't think she was inoppropriate for her level. I just mentioned her as an afterthought because triple Lutz is quite impressive at the Novice level.

I have been told that judges won't reward sandbagging. I am just wondering what constitutes sandbagging. The judges did not penalize these girls so I have to believe they felt they were appropriate for their levels.

It is a fact that it is important to make a name for yourself in this sport. It is hard to ascend the ranks without one. I didn't mean for the way I said that to be offensive.

[BABYSKATES]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by vesperholly
[B]Well, she may be landing triples but who really knows how solid her basic skating skills are? In this specific case we can infer that they're probably very good as in order to compete in Novice Pairs she would have to pass her Novice Moves. But hearing what jumps are being landed without being able to see how a skater *skates* can be very deceiving.

For example, having seen Kimmie Meissner skate last summer, I can tell you that her basic skating, choreographic difficulty and presentation is too "underdeveloped" to be competitive as a Senior skater, regardless of the triple lutz. And she was still having issues with the triple sal last summer, not to mention she does not have a loop or flip. There are certain expectations of how a Senior, Junior, Novice etc skater will look like - their command of steps, confidence in edges, power and flow. Meissner looked like exactly what she proved she is: a very talented *Novice* skater.


Good point! From what I am reading, it sounds like Kimmie Meissner skates at what most would consider an appropriate level for her. I know a lot of kids who are testing ahead and are tested to Novice moves yet still compete Juvenile. Still, they can't do triples and they aren't doing their triples at the Intermediate level while not testing up to that level...I don't know. I don't mean to sound wishy-washy but I asked the question because I am undecided.

[flo]

Hi,
No problem. I'd like to hear a judges opinion of the sandbagging matter.

[JD]

Flo

Giggle.....me too....

Bet we'll never hear it though:roll: ;) :lol:

[vesperholly]

BABYSKATES, I hope my post did not come off as angry. I was aiming for rational.

FYI here's the link: http://www.usfsa.org/news/2002-03/vlassov.htm?siteid=983

In this very specific case, I do think that Vlassov was probably a little bit sandbagging. Doing triples in the official practice sessions (she did not do them on warm up) of a competition where triples are not permitted is a little... questionable. Seems more like an intimidation or show-off technique, which isn't rare at this level of competition. Making a name for yourself can also be a lot worse than it seems - then you have expectations and pressure to live up to your name.

To put the triple lutz at Novice in perspective, the year Deanna Stellato (1999?) won Novice she landed a triple lutz... and promptly moved up to Senior for the following year and did quite well.

Sandbagging is a term used in reference to skaters who have skills that allow them to be very competitive in the next higher level, but they have not tested up yet because they want the "sure thing" medal/title at the lower level. The reason for not testing up is the problem - they want to medal or win. Basically, their skills are inappropriate - too advanced - for the level they are competing.

I do not think that the USFSA needs to create any more tests. To do so would involve more test sessions, more cost to skaters, and more volunteer judges to judge these tests - judges are hard enough to get now. I think that the USFSA is keeping a good balance between making the tests close enough so that there isn't a humongous leap in difficulty from one to the next (which would discourage and frustrate skaters), but making them far enough apart so that there is accomplishment to be had. If you had 20 tests, it would trivialize the actual passing of most of the tests because the improvement required to pass each test would be minimal. A test should be enough of an event that it is significant, but not so much that it is earth-shattering.

By the way, at most competitions the test standard IS reflected in the competition standard - it's rare to see juveniles with double flips, let alone triples, on the club circuit. Of course when you take the 18 best juvenile skaters in the country there is going to be distortion from the majority - it's called elite competition.

Jocelyn

[vesperholly]

Originally posted by BABYSKATES
Good point! From what I am reading, it sounds like Kimmie Meissner skates at what most would consider an appropriate level for her. I know a lot of kids who are testing ahead and are tested to Novice moves yet still compete Juvenile. Still, they can't do triples and they aren't doing their triples at the Intermediate level while not testing up to that level...I don't know. I don't mean to sound wishy-washy but I asked the question because I am undecided.

I know a skater who passed their Senior moves last June, and competed in Intermediate Ladies at Regionals, and got something like 8th or 9th place in her qualifying. She didn't even make it to finals, let alone Junior Nationals.

Then again, I also know a skater who passed their Junior moves last summer and did make finals at Regionals in Intermediate - but not JNs. :-)

Being a good skater (edges/turns/footwork) and a good technician (jumps/spins) are two different skills, and often most are stronger at one than the other.

Jocelyn

[BABYSKATES]

Originally posted by vesperholly
By the way, at most competitions the test standard IS reflected in the competition standard - it's rare to see juveniles with double flips, let alone triples, on the club circuit. Of course when you take the 18 best juvenile skaters in the country there is going to be distortion from the majority - it's called elite competition.

Jocelyn [/B]

I guess because our region is so strong, I didn't know what most juveniles are able to do. On the club circuit here, the vast majority of Juveniles have all of their doubles as well as double-doubles. Prejuveniles here often have 2 double lutzes in their program (one in combination). These Juveniles often have double Axels. It's a very tough region to qualify from.

[Arsenette]

Personally I do think it's sandbagging but not her personally. I don't know who she is personally but the idea is the same. The testing system is not the problem is the execution of the competition that is. For example in lower level competitions you cannot do an axel or the number of certain types of jumps are prohibited and so forth to keep a even playing field. The problem that I see from Juv. and up is that there are no restrictions (past the short program) to keep everyone in the even playing field so you can realistically have a Juv. skater winning with a triple Lutz!! Personally I believe they don't test up so they have a chance to medal and make a name of themselves in the highly competitive USFSA circuit. Plenty of times I roll my eyes at Regionals seeing kids that at least jump-wise "should" be at least 2 levels higher but are not because "they can get to Regionals or Nationals" with those jumps. I argue about this all the time to anyone that would listen. It's not fair to have a testing system if you are not going to enforce what belongs there. Quite frankly I don't see why a double axel is in Intermediate - GO NOVICE OR JUNIOR!! Heck.. the Seniors have their own problems with the rest of the program (meaning presentation skills, and the "in betweens") just like everyone else.. give the kids that "should" be at the level a chance to feel the accomplishment rather than go for a medal that belongs to someone else. Yes.. yes.. end of rant.

[dbny]

Originally posted by skaternum
If you want to compete in an environment where the test standard is also the competition standard, then do ISI competitions.


Sounds a lot like "If you don't like it here, go back to where you came from." I think that as a member of the USFSA, I have every right to encourage the USFSA to do what I believe is in it's best interests. From what I have seen, allowing a free for all in competition is discouraging to many skaters. If the USFSA wants to build a larger membership and greater participation, then they should bring the test and competition standards more into alignment. ISI has different problems, being too rigid, IMO, in their competitive requirements.

[skaternum]

No, I'm not saying, "if you don't like it here, go back where you came from." I'm saying that the two organizations have different goals, and you should pick the one that suits your personal needs better. If you want to skate in events with no max, that's ISI. The USFSA does have as one of its purposes to feed skaters into the international elite circuit. You don't do that by restricting the 7 lower levels so severely.

And I believe the USFSA has attempted to reign in some of the more egregious cases of over-qualification at the lower levels by imposing some of the restrictions a few years ago.

[Elsy2]

While this is certainly discouraging for the average skater, these kids are striving for national titles, and doing what it takes to get there.

For the skater who desires a good competition experience, fun, and challenge on a personal level, there are many competitions out there that are considered less competitive than others. With experience you learn what competitions have high level clubs participating, and what you can expect.

For example, Miami University holds a summer competition where you will likely find much older girls competing at lower levels. When we first went there, my daughter was 10 or 11, and competed Pre-preliminary moves with teenagers that towered over her. She went out on the warm up and rushed back to her coach asking if we were sure she was in the right group! We still laugh about her competing with the "amazon women..."

I guess my point is there are USFSA competitons out there suited for everyone...those desiring very stiff competition that prepares them to go for the higher titles, and those just wishing to have a positive competition experience.

My daughter started later than most, and has a slew of medals hanging in the bedroom. The wins may not have been at the most pretigious of competitions, but we have had a wonderful time. I guess you just need to make the right choices for what you are ultimately after.

[rinkrat24/7]

I know a skater who passed their Senior moves last June, and competed in Intermediate Ladies at Regionals, and got something like 8th or 9th place in her qualifying.

As a skater it is very common to be a few levels above in your move than your freestyle.


I am in no way meaning to offend anyone, kimmie is a very sweet girl and i admire her skating and i have no problem with her staying novice... i just have a technical guestion... i was always under the impression that if you won nationals you HAD to move up to the next level? can anone give me the details on this and correct me if i'm wrong? ~thx~

[Louis]

This was Kimmie Meissner's first year in novice, so I hardly think she can be considered sandbagging.

And a double axel in intermediate is almost required nowadays. Almost all of the girls who make it to the final round at Regionals (at least at the bigger Regionals) have a double axel, and the girls who go to Nationals usually have a triple, too. Double axel combo in the short is standard, as is one triple attempt in the free skate.

[Marney]

Is there any reason to believe that Kimmie Meissner is planning to stay at the novice level next year?

[love2sk8]

In Canada, the Juvenile programs are not restricted to only double jumps...I remember that as a Juvenile, I had 2 double axels, and a 3 sal in my program.

As for moving up after winning a title, theres nothing more to achieve in that level...I doubt that Kimmie Meissner will stay back, I don't even think she'd be allowed...Canadian's are not allowed to stay at the same level after winning a national title.

~hope this helps!!

[Sylvia]

Originally posted by Marney
Is there any reason to believe that Kimmie Meissner is planning to stay at the novice level next year?

No. Meissner will compete Novice at Triglav Trophy this April but that's because she turned 13 after July 1. She will be age eligible for the JGP this fall. BTW, she spent two years at the Intermediate level (Pre-Novice in Canada) and qualified for Junior Nationals her first year, but not her second, before moving up to Novice this season.

[armchairsk8r]

Skating is like playing the slot machines, you keep putting in your quaters and you get nothing .Then oneday you hit the jackpot! That is what hapeen to Kimmie ,who by the way is 13 not 14,last year she didnt even make it out of the region in Intermediate.This year she has come in to the rink and worked her lil heart out and now she is Novice National Champion.Sometimes it clicks and sometimes it doesnt.

[Skatewind]

Originally posted by dbny
Sounds a lot like "If you don't like it here, go back to where you came from." I think that as a member of the USFSA, I have every right to encourage the USFSA to do what I believe is in it's best interests. From what I have seen, allowing a free for all in competition is discouraging to many skaters.
While it may be discouraging for many skaters, what's in the best interests for the USFSA when it comes to qualifying competitions is to develop their most outstanding & high performing skaters, which almost always includes more than just the ones who are winning the competition year to year. Maybe qualifying competitions are not the best skating activity for skaters who are overly discouraged by this concept. There are other activities offered by the USFSA for a variety of skaters. It seems to me sometimes the whole issue may often have to do more with unrealistic expectations on the part of skaters & parents who do not understand or accept the purpose of qualifying competitions than it does with USFSA.

A triple lutz is not permitted in juvenile Arsenette.

Also many skaters have stronger skills by junior nationals in December or nationals in January than they had in the summer or by regionals. Sometimes what people might consider sandbagging could actually be explained due to other reasons. Often at lower levels, what some parents consider to be a double axel or triple sal may not actually be a double axel or triple sal quite yet. Unfortunately I've never noticed that it stopped some parents & skaters from playing mind games with others at the rinks over it.

[vesperholly]

Meissner is required to move up, as is Vlassov. This can work in your favor or not - Robbie Dierking won the 2002 Novice title very unexpectedly (in 2000 he won Juvenile and in 2001 he won Intermediate, so they were only thinking of top 5 at best) and had to move up to Junior before his coaches wanted him to - and consequently he didn't get back to Nationals this year because he wasn't ready - he was lucky to get to Easterns because he was 5th at Norths.

I believe the USFSA's goal is to build the most competitive program possible in order to foster new talent to international, elite senior levels. There's a reason that being a female singles skater in the US is an uphill battle - and that much more prestigious if you can make any headway.

Jocelyn

[Sylvia]

Appel & Harris, 2002 U.S. junior pair champions, remained in junior this season and placed 3rd at Dallas Nationals, so there isn't a USFSA rule (anymore) that says national champions must move up the following season.

[Louis]

Igor Shpilband successfully lobbied for the abolishment of the rule that the previous year's champions were required to move up. IIRC, the rule went into place just in time for Joseph/Butler to win back-to-back junior dance titles in 1996 and 1997.

[adrianchew]

I have to agree wholeheartedly with Skatewind... there is a reason that NON-qualifying competition continues to exist, to provide an opportunity for the other skaters to evolve at their own pace and still compete. There are many club level competitions than require far less to be competitive at.

The opportunies abound - unless you're in a remote location. Of course competing at major club competitions such as Mid-Atlantics (SCNY), Liberty, Skate Detroit, etc is pretty competitive almost like a mini-Regionals... but the typical club competition isn't nearly quite so intense.

At the elite levels from Intermediates on up... I watched Int Ladies at Souths, and Novice to Senior at North Atlantic + South Atlantics... can't really say there's any sandbagging... those who medal at one level may not even qualify to Nationals a level up. Consider Katherine Hadford who failed to qualify for Nats this year in Junior after medalling as a Novice last year.

Kimmie is perfectly where she should be - she would have had a TOUGH time as a Junior and probably wouldn't have qualified to Nationals at all if she skated as a Junior (I saw all the Jr. Ladies at Easterns too).

[rinkrat24/7]

Is there any reason to believe that Kimmie Meissner is planning to stay at the novice level next year?

I thought i saw someone post earlier in this thread that she was planning to stay in novice another year. Maybe i read it wrong:roll: . I definately don't think that Kimmie was Sandbagging. I saw her compete earlier in the season and she didn't have a 3lutz then and was having problems with her 3sal. I think its great that she was able to pull it all together by nationals.

[WeBeEducated]

I dont think it is sandbagging, but is a type of strategy that enables a skater or team to experience a competitive year feeling at top form and confident, with the knowledge that their skills have been finely tuned.
I see it more in icedance than freestyle.
Yes, it can make the other competitors feel frustrated and jealous. Some icedance teams have competed for years and are still intermediates and novice, even though they are just about ready to go off to college!
but all in all, a skater just needs to do what works for them, and not think about how it effects others with less ability.

[pennskater]

I believe the case of Vlassov was sandbagging, but not with Meissner. Vlassov was the 6th place finisher in Juvenile the year before. Meissner was in Intermediate the year before, and did not get out of regionals.
Vlassov had triples and won Lake Placid in Intermediate AND Juvenile in July, but her region is tough as well, so she insured her success by staying at Juvenile. If she would have been in a different region, she may have moved up.
I feel STRONGLY that in SINGLES that there needs to be a rule that top 10 (or maybe even up to 18 which is the final skate-off group) at Junior Nationals should be required to move up.
I agree that Dance and Pairs should be allowed to stay down a level, simply because there are so few of them, so it's not like they are hurting another team by doing so. All teams make it to Nationals and Junior Nationals.
But in SINGLES there are so many skaters, that it makes it extremely discouraging to the other skaters to know you don't have a chance. That is why so many skaters drop out between Juv and Novice.
The USFSA thinks this new Future Champions program is going to help, but they only are keeping away MEDALISTS from JN's. So, a Vlassov type will be able to stay down a level and destroy eveyone.
I have nothing against Vlassov, and actually think her father was correct in allowing her to do this - she gets recongition and funding. It's the USFSA's fault at not having rules to make these people move up.

[CanAmSk8ter]

Originally posted by sk8er1964
From what I got from the article, she is skating up to Intermediate at local non-qualifying competitions, but didn't want to test yet. Also, she has two solid triples and is working on two more. She apparently did those triples in warm up.

What other reason does she have for staying at Juvenile, when she clearly should be skating at a higher level (and already is outside of qualifying competitions) except to get a medal/name recognition? That, to me, is sandbagging.

JMO

This is true. The young lady in question skated Intermediate at my club competition this summer, and I was monitor for her group. If I'm remembering correctly, and I think I am, she landed double axel, triple toe-double toe, and triple sal, with a hand down on one of them. I agree, this is sandbagging. The amazing thing was, she placed second. I didn't see the girl who won- I think she placed at regionals this year in Intermediate, but I'm not positive.

What strikes me as ironic is how many national Juv or even Intermediate champions have gone on to do well in seniors? Ann-Patrice won Intermediate back in like 1997, and Ye Bin Mok won both Juvenile and Intermediate, but look at some of the other names. JJ Matthews won nationals in Juvenile, Intermediate, and Novice- whatever happened to her? Naomi Nari Nam won Juvenile too, didn't she? And I think Stephanie Stiegler won Juvenile the first year they had JN's (1991?) I don't see how winning nationals at Juvenile is so important that it's worth sandbagging to such an extent. I've seen quite a few girls over the years win at Juvenile or Intermediate and then struggle to make it to Sectionals three years later in Novice. Is it really worth it?

[BittyBug]

Originally posted by Louis
Igor Shpilband successfully lobbied for the abolishment of the rule that the previous year's champions were required to move up. IIRC, the rule went into place just in time for Joseph/Butler to win back-to-back junior dance titles in 1996 and 1997.

I'm pretty sure the rule is that you have to move up if you win Novice, but you do not have to move up if you win Juniors. Don't ask me why...