Pair Elements

[Scott]

Well, after all the discussion about the state of US pairs I thought I would toss this out: As the level of difficulty has increased has the quality of the presention been sacrificed to the extent that the pair has to focus on triple jumps, trilple throws, and split triple splits, as well as developing more difficult lifts? It just seems to me that the pairs who are the most "artistic" usually are not able to complete the elements as well. And the reverse is also true.

I am also curious to raise the question as to what is the correct entry and position of the split twist. I ask this because of the point that Adrian brought up in another thread. The Chinese do a lateral position in the air while teams from the USA and Canada, for example go "straight up." Does anyone know if for example one is more difficult than the other?

[adrianchew]

On the lateral twists - I don't believe there is much, if any, of a split before the twist. Is there a distinction between split twists and twists without splits? It seems to me very few pairs get any sort of a split at all - T/M is miles beyond anyone else in this category, since she splits close to a 180 in the air. 8O

[Layback]

i think splits are optional in the twists, just that if you actually do intend to do a split twist, the lady's split should be even. that is, both legs should be splitting an equal distance from the body, whatever the degree of split she achieves. maybe a pairs skater/coach on the forum can correct me on this?

edited to add that i think that the air position (straight up and down vs. lateral) is also optional, and considered equivalent.

[Artemis]

For the most part, no, I don't think so, or at least not any more so than in singles. With the exception of a couple of teams, most top-ranked pairs are able to handle the artistry + technical very well thank you. I'm still a little uncomfortable about the huge emphasis put on sbs 3jumps, but that's because it's a singles element. But while I've seen many pairs struggle in the standings with sbs jumps, it doesn't usually seem to affect their overall presentation.

And let's not forget this figure skating is a sport. A sport where artistry is an integral part, no question, but still a sport.

[sk8pics]

Originally posted by Layback
i think splits are optional in the twists, just that if you actually do intend to do a split twist, the lady's split should be even.

Actually in the short program the split is required. And I sat next to a judge at the pairs short program at the olympics who was complaining about uneven splits on the part of many of the female pair skaters. In other words, they'd really split with only 1 leg.

I also have had the impression that a lateral position is more difficult, but I have no idea whether that's correct. But on the short program whether it's a lateral twist or straight up and down, the split is required before the rotation begins.

Pat

[roza]

I always thought that the difference between split (for the purpose of my arguement it doesn't matter if the girl splits or not) and lateral twists was not the position in which the girl rotates in the air but the take-off. For the split twist the take is like that for a lutz, whereas in a lateral twist there is no pick and it's more like a loop take off, which thus makes the rotation more difficult.
However, as we see true lateral twists so rarely these days (the pair last I remember seeing this from is Alison Gaylor and David Pelletier), commentators and in turn skating fans have taken to calling a spilt twist lift that rotates in a horizontal position a lateral twist.

I may have this totally wrong, in which case feel free to contradict me, but I'm sure that it's the take off that makes the difference between and split and lateral twist.

[AnnieD]

Roza I'm pretty sure you're right, there was a thread about this not long ago, and I thought then that the difference between a lateral and a normal twist was that on a lateral there is no toe-pick assist on take off from the lady. It seems to be only Canadians who I've seen perform it actually; Brasseur and Eisler had a great one, Gaylor and Pelletier did it, and Jamie Salé and Jason Turner had it in their free the year they went to the Olympics (although there it was definitely the take-off because the lateral position wasn't very pronounced). I can't remember where on earth it was that I read it being all about the take-off but my brain is telling me it was somewhere fairly reliable!

[bleu]

Scott - regarding the correct way to enter a twist. I recall Debbie Wilkes saying that most skaters enter the twist clockwise but this one pair enters it counterclockwise/reverse. She did say this entry is more difficult than the other normal entry.

I read somewhere that a lateral split is not as difficult as the *true and vertical* triple twist. One might just as well do the vertical twist rather than lateral twist.

Does the lateral twist qualify as a pair element? I think it is a hybrid element.

For me, the current top 5 pairs skaters are extremely great singles skaters but not great pairs elements skaters. They have learned how to throw girls very high in the splits and throws at the expense of such pairs elements as the lifts, spins and spirals. I am refering to the level of difficulty and creativity in these pairs elements(spirals, spins and lifts)

For instance, why can't a pair become inventive with the spins.

1998 - 2002 : we saw innovative death spirals(ones that travel and are in tune with the music) and changing position pair lifts.

I think 2002-2006 should be about innovative pairs spins.

[PatC]

No, you want to watch someone with great air position, look at Katerina Berankova. She skates with Otto Dlabova, CZE. Bar none I've never seen someone with such great air position, she has a great split and the positions she achieves in the lifts are wonderful.

For Canadian fans, we got to see them at the olympics.

Debbie Wilkes mentioned when she was doing the commentary for NHK, that it's a preference thing for lateral or split twists. I'm trying to remember exactly what she said, but it was something in that line. So it sounds like one is not much difficult than the other, but it's a personal preference thing which one you like to do.

[bleu]

Yes PatC, I remember this girl!

My beef with pair skating now is that the stuff that makes pairs skating different from singles are being compromised. I don't see the emphasis on pairness but on jumping. I may be wrong and but it sure feels like *single skating* rather than pairs skating.