Opinions about Bourne & Kraatz's FD

[Aussie Willy]

Okay I am behind the times. I just got a copy of 4CC's FD event and finally got to see their FD for this season.

However I did not like it. I thought the music selection was just awful - even more inappropriate than "March with me" (which at least had an inspirational quality about it). It seems as they are trying to out Russian the Russians. What is Tarasova doing with this team? The whole program left me cold and going "What the?". It did not create a mood for me or showed me anything new.

Now I am not bagging B&K. I have always liked this team and think they are great skaters. I loved MJ last season and even prefer March with Me to this one. I have only watched it once so maybe a second repeat might make it more worthwhile. But how can such a good dance team come up with such an awful program?

And in answer to a question that was posed on this board earlier on - L&A will win worlds just because I don't think this is a good dance for B&K.

However my favourite program that I has seen so far (of the ones I have seen) is Winkler & Lohse's. Just brillant!

[Alexeiskate]

I don't follow ice-dance closely but I didn't like this program either. Neither the music nor the choreography moved me. I also think this program is beatable and that L&A will win Worlds.

It's strange to see B&K and L&T doing some of the same sort of moves in their programs. Maybe Nicolai is spreading himself too thin by choreographing for too many skaters. (He should just stick with MK, giving her fabulous programs until she retires :lol: )

[Isabelle]

I really do NOT like their free dance this season either! It seems like lately they've gotten weirder every season but this has just gone too far. I think you're right about trying to out-Russian the Russians. (By the way, Tatiana is no longer coaching them -- she and Nikoli split and Nikoli is staying with them) The music is awful, the costumes are WEIRD and ugly, and although their supposed to be known for their fast footwork, there's hardly anything in this free dance except lifts (most of which are ugly) and tricks. It seems like everything is like an over-the-top show for them this season.
Although the last few seasons they've gotten a little weird, at least I still liked them. This year I don't know if I can honestly say I do. :cry:
Ah, to go back to the days when they actually looked like they were having fun and just enjoyed dancing!

[icenut84]

Sadly, I have to agree. :( B&K are my favourite eligible dance team (though I also really like L&A), and I was really looking forward to their new FD after all the rave reviews. I saw the top 5 from 4CC, and although I absolutely loved Wing&Lowe's John Lennon number and loved Belbin&Agosto's Elvis number, I wasn't drawn in by B&K at all. What a letdown. It's just not their style at all. I loved Riverdance, Love Parade, March With Me, and MJ. IMO, this new one just isn't true to themselves at all, it looks like they're trying too hard to do what they think the judges want, to do what everyone else does. I only liked one of the lifts, the one where Shae's across Vic's shoulder like she's flying. The rest are a bit... hmm. The costumes were dodgy too IMO, but I like their hair, especially Vic's.

[professordeb]

Well, someone has to go against the majority, and I guess it'll be me.
The first time I saw this, I couldn't believe it was over already. The second time watching it still went by too fast.
About the footwork, yes, there doesn't seem to be as much as in earlier years, but they haven't really been rewarded for it. It seems that the dances they do that are "popular" with the fans don't quite cut it with the judges and since they are the ones that B&K have to impress, I would venture to say this is more in the style of what judges want. I have enjoyed watching them over the years, and my favourite would have been Meet Her at the Love Parade, but what with Shae's injury, it never really had a chance.
All things being equal, and this being their last chance at a gold medal and being World Champs, I'd say they've bought into doing what it takes to win, but keeping some of what is true to them.
Regardless, they have been my favourite dance team for years, and whatever the outcome, they'll get my support.

til later,
Deb

[Angel01673]

Well, if B/K are trying to out russian the russians, then L/A are definetly trying to out "north american" the north americans. It goes both way you know and B/K have a huge advantage over L/A.They actally understand their music. L/A look frantic and lost. I would much rather seee B/K win over L/A who shouldn't even be in the top 3 with that hideous excuse for a free dance. I agree though, about the lack of foot work, for both B/K and L/T, they are mostly lifts and highlight moves, but it's not like everyone else has much in the way of foot work anyway. But Nicky did such a good job with G/G, MK, Arakawa, Alexei and Sasha, I agree it's fairly obvious he has spread himself thin. I guess L/T and B/K got the short end of the stick, however, Nicky did do a good job with both of their OD's. But maybe Nicky will get a break with B/K retring, and because of the split he no longer has to worry about Alexei, Sasha, G/G, and K/M.

[mkfan34202]

To me, all of the FD's this season have been subpar. L&A's seems like they are trying to fit into something they are not. B&K's choreography doesn't look like it was made to relate to the music, many of the lifts, the moves, the footwork looked like it was just done for the sake of doing so. I will say this, it is between B&K and L&A.

[sk8ing is lyfe]

i think it is sad... i was always big supporters of them, trying to be different... now its like they've cracked and gone for one last desprate measure to be everything the judges are looking for- RUSSIAN!!!

there programs have always been so un-ice-dancy, instead of like "omg we're dying and lying on the ice looking like we are going to die of the pain on our face" they have always tried to change ice dancing with riverdance then techno...etc... but this one is like everything they have stood for in the past no longer counts and they are just going to cave and trying to be like everyone else


I must say i am kinda dissappointed

[chrisa]

I must be in the minority because this is the first one I've actually liked from these two. I"m Canadian and I'm the first to admit that I've never liked B/K. I hated Riverdance and all the other things they kept saying were groundbreaking, including hydroblading. But, I actually like this program. I thought it was over way too quickly. I even like the hydroblading elements in it and for me, that's huge to admit. I also love this music. I love it in its classical form and this 21 Century version is fine with me. It's far more passionate than MWM which seemed very controlled to me. I loved their Sadeness exhibition and this one is very similar to it. I think it's very stylish. If they continue to do this, I"ll actually become a fan... after all these years!!

[Aussie Willy]

Funny people mention L&A's program trying to out North American the North Americans - I kind of agree.

I do agree what a couple of people have said about L&A's program. I too thought it was probably not rock n' roll enough because if people remember their jive OD from 98 Olympics and Worlds, I thought their OD was the best jive out of all of them and was an excellent dance. It is a pity their FD is not up to the same standard or quality as the OD from back then. Still I was glad to see them do something a bit fun after the seriousness of the past couple of seasons. Ilia really captures my eye - more so than Irina - and gives it his all. He is a bit more rock n' roll than she.

I did not realise B&K were not with Tarasova anymore - thanks for correcting me. At least people who think Nikolai is a cutie will get to see him without Tarasova's fur coat being in the way (and I know there are a few!);)

[roogu]

I wonder if it's a smart move for B/K to go with the lifts they've come up with this year ... that indecency rule is a big one to consider and it can give any judge on the panel at worlds to find a reason, rather easily I might add, to give the deductions that might cost them the gold. I do like their renewed enthusiasm and attack this year, which was non existant at the Olympics for some reason. I like the music, don't see anything wrong with the costumes either. But with that said .... I'm just worried about the difficulty factor in the program as a whole .... it somehow seems a bit bare to me .... or maybe they just perform the steps so well it seems that way ... who knows. But either way, it just makes it really easy for jduges who don't want B/K on top of the podium to tear it apart.

[Canskater]

When I saw B & K's free dance for the first time at Thornhill, I was absolutely mesmerized by it. Each time I have seen it subsequently, I am equally impressed. It is a vehicle which works very well for them .. and it is more of the "classical" or "european" style which seems to be favored by the judges.

Lobacheva & Averbukh's program could work ... but after having seen it three times thus far, I always come away with the feeling that Lobacheva is somehow not totally committed to it .. like her heart is just not there. (He, one the other hand, looks like he's having a blast!)

-- sheilagh

[Excidra]

The first time I saw B&K's program I was really impressed. Because I never thought I would see a program like that from them.
I was really expecting another boring FD, even though I liked their MJ program.
The program does have difficulty, but if you think more footwork is difficulty then you are right. They do skate fast and close to each other through out the program. But as other said, doing more footwork then others did not give them a world title before. So maybe paying more attention to lifts and line is going to get them a world title.
I have seen L&A's program during the GP series and I was totally turned off by it. But I have been told that they add new things to the program since then, so I can't wait to see how it looks.

Also, if I was B&K I wouldn't worry about anything. If they can skate Adiago of 21 century like they did at 4CC, they are going to be rewarded.

[Blade1]

Well seeing that the judges did give B&K 6.0's for their performance at 4CC - guess the international judges liked what they saw !!

I think its an absolutly wonderful freedance !! Its the full package. B&K have definitly grown throughout the years, and watching this freedance clearly shows how they have grown in individuals and as figure skaters.

Everyone has their opinions, and I respect that. For me I think B&K's free dance this year is FABULOUS!

[Isabelle]

Just to clear things up, I do think that footwork is difficulty to some extent, but I know there is a lot more to difficulty than footwork. I just found this free dance to be almost entirely lifts and tricks with crossovers in between which is fine for a show program but as a competitive program, I find it's not really skating or dancing.
Anyways, that's just MHO. :)

[tulip]

Originally posted by Isabelle
Just to clear things up, I do think that footwork is difficulty to some extent, but I know there is a lot more to difficulty than footwork. I just found this free dance to be almost entirely lifts and tricks with crossovers in between which is fine for a show program but as a competitive program, I find it's not really skating or dancing.


Sorta like Dubreuil & Lauzon's programs from the last few years, right Isabelle?

[Blade1]

Isabelle that is a good observation, however I disagree. There are a few teams out there that just don't "move" me when I watch their performance. B&K draws me into their program, that has me watching. Aside from the wonderfull lifts B&K do in their free, they also have great speed, wonderful deep edges, as well as brings a story onto the ice and dance their way threw.
There are many teams out there that bore me to tears with their performance.

[Blade1]

Originally posted by tulip
Sorta like Dubreuil & Lauzon's programs from the last few years, right Isabelle?

Excactly now there is a team I'm REALLY disapointed in this season. This team is a favorite of mine as well however their free skate this season bored me to tears. Before Canadians all I heard was nothing but wonderful things about their free skate, so I was extreamly excited to see it. And I was just disapointed after I watched. And I just found it really really blah.

[Roma]

Frankly, I am surprised with how many really indecent lifts have been executed in the last few years. Sorry to use blunt language buth there's no other way to say this: no one should do any lift or pose where their crotch is touching their partner. There have been ALOT (Winkler and Lohse are among a few that are most guilty) Yes, I think 1 of B/K's lifts is indecent, but I also think there are many others that are even worse, and that's a real shame. There are many, many ways to be original without being tasteless.

[VGL]

If any of B&K's lifts were deemed "indecent" as per the indecency rule, would they not have been informed of that after 4CC's???

[Roma]

I was referring to what I as a person find indecent. I am often surprised at the types of lifts that are...er...well as I described above.
Actually, I'm not a big fan of censorship (i.e. forbidding things), however, I often scratch my head at some moves, wondering how between the coach, the choreographer, and 2 dancers, not one of member of a party will have had enough sense to go 'hmmm..not a good move, let's change that.'

[jss]

I just have to say this. Is it just me or is it strange that the international judges are finally rewarding a B&K program that looks more European in style. I have enjoyed their freedances in the past, but this one is a little different than what they have done in that past. I have often thought that B&K and some of the American teams have been penalized for their different styles of dancing. No I'm not an expert, and I realize some teams do actually have more difficult, but it seems to me that in the past teams that are on the same difficulty level or even below have been rewarded above North American dancers. I'm not suggesting this was neccessarily done intentionally (although I think it is VERY possible) but it could be the judges preferences.

[LTM]

I with those who found this particular FD seemed to be over almost as soon as it started. No it's not very dancy, yes it seems to all lifts and highlights but since that's what the judging panels have been rewarding the last few years, what the heck do people expect.
I haven't seen L & A 's dances this year so I can't comment on who
I think might win or who has the better programs.
Good luck to both teams.

[dawnk]

ITA that the FD has a Russian look to it. Even Shae-Lynn's new hair color & style (and the fur coat)seem Russian, the color reminds me of Gritsuk.
Nicolai has some influence there I suspect. But the FD is excellent, IMO. The lifts are more intricate & difficult than their past programs, but the footwork has been dumbed down. This dance highlights the deep edges which are their strong point. On ABC, Suzie Wynn said both the lifts & the f/w are more difficult than in the past. I disagree. Sometimes I wonder if SW is watching the same dance & dancers I am. I have not seen L&A live, but B&K live are nothing short of magnificent. BTW, I am also extremely disappointed in D&L this year. Always one of my favorite teams since I saw them @ divisionals 4 or 5 years ago,they are flat, seem to lack energy in all 3 of the dance components. She seems to have lost alot of weight. Maybe training in France, away from their families & home environment, is too hard on them.
PS- Hi VGL- are you going to Missisauga in OCT?

[dawnk]

ITA that the FD has a Russian look to it. Even Shae-Lynn's new hair color & style (and the fur coat)seem Russian, the color reminds of Gritsuk.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[Isabelle]

Sorta like Dubreuil & Lauzon's programs from the last few years, right Isabelle?
No, it's not at all like Marie-France and Patrice's programs. I do agree that Marie-France and Patrice's free dances have been highlighted by lifts, but they've always had all sorts of stuff in between (which a lot of people don't appear to see), and, with the exception of their Titus program, always looked like they were dancing to me. And although it bores some people, I think their Dance With my Heart free dance is the best one they've ever done! (although they didn't skate the last 1/3 very well at Canadians) Everything is so complex and just flows into everything else. The lifts even flow better this year -- it's like all of a sudden she's in the air and you didn't even realize it was happening. Plus, they have so much passion and feeling in it which looks genuine.

Everybody is allowed their own opinion, and that's mine. :)
(and I'm determined that no matter what anyone else says I'm going to try not to post anymore on this thread! :oops: I can see myself getting carried away here! :P )

[Blue Ridge]

Well said, Isabelle! I agree completely, Dance with my Heart is a great program. It does sort of feel like people aren't really watching. I loved the program from the beginnning, but I think the 4CCs performance was the best so far and the changes to the program have really enhanced it. I can't understand how Marie-France & Patrice can be considered unlikely to make the Top 10 at Worlds.

Oh, wait, this is a thread about B&K's FD, sorry, back to topic. :)

[Lise]

I have to agree..this FD is the best B/K have done. I liked Riverdance in 98 but realize that it was all footwork, Love Parade, I can't say I liked it, same for HRC and MWM.

I was disappointed in D/L free this year..it was blah to me but then again, I really don't like this team that much. I find that they place too much emphasis on the lifts, not enough in the footwork or the rest of the elements.

I think there is some doubt about them making the top 10 based on the fact that they are being beaten by lower ranked teams. They barely made GPF this year.

[fsfan]

I absolutely LOVED B&Ks FD... It's different, new, and lively... Normallyw hen I watch dance I find myself getting easily distracted... but this program drew me in, and I didn't breath during the entire performance.. it was mesmerising... When it ended, I couldn't believe that it was already over!!

As for D&L.. I'll add my name to the list of people who are disappointed with their programs this year.. My favourite programs from them, are the following: Life is Beautiful (2000?), L-O-V-E (2001), and Maria de Buenos Aires (last year)...

I don't like any of their programs this year... and I really hope they can hang on to their top 10 placement... if they don't - I dont' know how they'll be able to move "back up" the ladder... Hopefully next year they'll come up with some better programs... these ones bore me...and I hate sayign that, but that's how I feel.

Regardless, I hope they do well at worlds...I"ll be cheering them on.

But, B&K are looking good, I must say. ;)

[VGL]

Originally posted by dawnk
ITA that the FD has a Russian look to it. Even Shae-Lynn's new hair color & style (and the fur coat)seem Russian, the color reminds me of Gritsuk.

PS- Hi VGL- are you going to Missisauga in OCT?

I don't think the coat is real fur though. At least it didn't look real when I passed it on the stairs in Saskatoon ;)

Hi Dawn! - no tickets yet but I'm going to try and get to Mississauga. I will be in Hamilton in January though :D

[Gaela]

Gosh I hope that fur coat isn't for real. As an animal lover, it really bothers me when people show their status with fur. I know this lays me bare for vitriolic criticism, but there is just something so un-classy about it.

I too found that the free dance mesmerized me. I'm sad that B&K haven't been rewarded for their originality in the past. MJ, Riverdance, Love Parade all had their unique stamp on it, while this one is more judge friendly and European--but the judges do seem to like it!! The criticism about footwork may be valid, but when they did Riverdance they were criticized for doing too much of it and not enough of the other stuff..somehow the emphasis on lifts and drama seems to be commonplace in dance. . I'm gonna go watch it again, come to think of it.

And I really didn't like L&A free dance. If there has been a dance team B&K might have a hope of beating, it is these two, in this dance. I found it frenetic and unappealing in its frenzy.

[Aussie Willy]

I am surprised that people are saying that what B&K is doing is new and different. I would like to clarify - do you mean for them or just generally in terms of ice dance? I am just interested to know.

The reason I ask is I feel they are doing what others have been doing over the last few years which is a dramatic dance which is dramatic for dramatic sake and not really to advance the sport of ice dancing. I really have seen this all before. That is why I am so disappointed in it - it does nothing new for ice dancing at all and they are looking like clones of all the other overly dramatic ice dancing teams out there.

[Canskater]

Just my .02 here ....

While I won't say that B & K's free dance breaks new ground, what I will say is that it is a new approach for them. As so many others have stated, in the past they played it their way ... breaking out of the proscribed ice dance mould, only to be penalized for it. This year, the name of the game is to win, and the way one does that is to give the judges what they want. Ergo ... this more European-styled program.

I do disagree with those who call it overly dramatic. While it is somewhat dramatic, it is elegant, it flows beautifully, effectively highlights the strengths and skills of both skaters .... but it doesn't have all the overt histrionics of programs past by the likes of K & O and A & P.

-- sheilagh

[Artemis]

Originally posted by Canskater
I do disagree with those who call it overly dramatic. While it is somewhat dramatic, it is elegant, it flows beautifully, effectively highlights the strengths and skills of both skaters .... but it doesn't have all the overt histrionics of programs past by the likes of K & O and A & P.

I couldn't agree more. Also, the music has an overall buoyant mood to it, which help counterbalance the "dramatacism."

[Blade1]

Originally posted by fsfan


As for D&L.. I'll add my name to the list of people who are disappointed with their programs this year.. My favourite programs from them, are the following: Life is Beautiful (2000?), L-O-V-E (2001), and Maria de Buenos Aires (last year)...

I have to agree. I did enjoy their "Life Is Beautiful" program. Their free this season is definitly not a favorite of mine at all. And there is something about the music that I really dislike.

As for B&K - BEST OF LUCK TO THEM AT WORLDS !! Also inregards to the fur coat, I doubt its real.

[Blade1]

Originally posted by Canskater
I do disagree with those who call it overly dramatic. While it is somewhat dramatic, it is elegant, it flows beautifully, effectively highlights the strengths and skills of both skaters .... but it doesn't have all the overt histrionics of programs past by the likes of K & O and A & P.


I have to agree with you as well. In my eyes its the "full package" And oviously the international judges must LOVE what they see since they have already rewarded B&K 6.0's for their performance. And that being their first International Competition this season !!!

[Gaela]

I just watched it again, and noticed plenty of footwork. Continues to mesmerize me--no, there isn't nothing really 'new' to dance about it, but I really love the flow of this program, and great knees.

Nor do I see the fuss about the lifts--they create interesting forms in the lift that everyone is complaining about. Maybe they create different costumes to hide rather than accentuate the part of the body noone is supposed to look at?

[tollerfan]

I loved B&K's fd the first time I saw it, and after watching the 4CC skate tonight, I'm loving it even more. I was completely drawn into it. They have everything they need in this program to go all the way. The OD is fabulous (the best I've seen this year). The only skaters I haven't seen this year are L&A...guess I'll have to wait until GPF shows up on TV in Canada, or until Worlds.

As far as D&L's fd is concerned, tonight was the first time I'd seen the revised version, and I'm really impressed. I would have placed this program ahead of L&T...it has much more difficulty, and as far as I'm concerned D&L have much better edges, extension, difficulty of lifts, and footwork. JMO, of course.

[dawnk]

ITA with tollerfan about D&L. I saw the FD from 4C on TV yesterday & think that they skated it better & with more feeling & energy than I have seen earlier this season. IMO,they deserved to be placed ahead of L&T because of the difficulty & closeness of the dance holds, the innovative lifts, the absolutely perfect unison on their twizzles & the quality of the footwork. This program has grown on me - it highlights M-F's incredible flexibility & his deep edges.The judges are marking them down for some reason.I hope that they wake up before Worlds.

[Artemis]

I'm really starting to like D&L's free dance, but I still really dislike the music. However it shouldn't be about personal taste, it should be how well they interpret and execute it ... and I think that on that question they've done a very good job.