"Why the Russians still rule the world of figure skating ..."

[Germanice]

... you can read in the New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/23/sports/othersports/23FIGS.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5062&en=54fb766bffae8221&ex=1046581200&partner=GOOGLE

Great, interesting and true article!

And ....... Alexei Yagudin is the undisputed star of the sport ...

Astonishing to "hear" that from an US-American source ... ;) :).

On the other hand I'm a little bit surprised they've mentioned Abt, but NOT Plushenko ...?! Huh? :(

Anke


Ouuoops! Edited because I've realized this article has been posted before! Sorry for that!

[icenut84]

Thanks for posting that article, it was very interesting.

[WeBeEducated]

Accurate perceptions by all.
Zhulin is correct about the money issue here too...the number one reason our dance and pairs teams are sooo weak is that teams usually merge based on money not talent. if your family is willing to pay for a partner, partially or in full, you will get a partner. talent is not the main factor.
If the USFSA would use some of its money to subsidize pairs and dance we would have more talented teams...but, they do not want to do that.

[duane]

i found myself wondering why an article titled "Why the Russians Still Rule..." focuses on the mens discipline. for a while, the Americans ruled, with the likes of Scott Hamilton and Brian Boitano. the Canadians were then the rulers, with Kurt Browning and Elvis Stojko. presently, the Russians dominate, led by Yagudin and Plushenko.

IMO, the focus of the article should have been on dance and pairs, where the Russians have truly dominated for decades.

[chachacha]

Duane,

Good point, but the article appears to be a launch story about
the upcoming Grand Prix Final, and in that the Russians
have half the men's slots and are slated to again, win.

Besides, most American readers aren't that familiar with
pairs and especially are unfamiliar with dance - but do know
something about ladies and men's skating.

Viva la Ruskies!:D

[Charis]

My first thought on seeing the headline was "rule" in the sense of control and expected it might be an informative article about bloc judging and politics. Ah, but then I saw the source and knew it would be propaganda. 8-)

Yagudin is (or was) the top male skater but he's hardly a household name and he certainly hasn't been selling many tickets for SOI.

[loveskating]

Thanks for posting....good to see some real analysis from a U.S. Newspaper based on the actual skating vs. conspiracy theories.

I sure agree about Abt...wanna talk about edges and accelleration, its one of the reasons I so love his skating. I know some disagree, but I believe this is fundamentally a NATURAL talent, that the body is made in such a way that if the kid gets good instruction, they will perfectly balance on the blade, as they have a natural construction allowing them to do so better than others...i just saw this a lot at the rink watching all the kids...just as some could not do a spread eagle to save their lives, some were "naturals" as to the edges. Otherwise, you can't explain why some are so incredibly good at this while others, who are otherwise very talented, are not incredible at it.

I agree too about the money, above all, and its clear as a bell to anyone who has tried that its money in America and not talent that determines whether you can go on or not unless you are a true prodigy and at an early age.

Also, the lack of stigma as to boys skating in Russia is very different than here...even if its not stigma, just the very fact that its 12 girls and 1 boy at practice tends to turn the kid and the dads off. There is a certain age in which little boys cannot stand to be around little girls.

The article did not mention how drastically our economy has changed since the 1980s, when we did have Boitano, Orser, Browning, Hamilton etc. If you all recall, jobs were shipped off shore, to Mexico, China, South Korea, etc., putting working class families here out of work etc. etc. In Chicago, where I used to live, there were 10,000 at U.S. Steel Southworks, and then down the lake, 20,000 at U.S. Steel Gary Works....with lots of smaller Steel Cos. like Inland, in between, ALL gone, to either Baytown, Texas or out of the country.

Skating reflects all that...kids from the working class just really cannot even afford to take group lessons much any more, nor can parents both working or working 2 jobs apiece just to pay the rent take the kids to the rink. I think group lessons were about $8 when Nancy Kerrigan, who is from the working class, began to skate?

[icenut84]

Originally posted by loveskating
i just saw this a lot at the rink watching all the kids...just as some could not do a spread eagle to save their lives, some were "naturals" as to the edges. Otherwise, you can't explain why some are so incredibly good at this while others, who are otherwise very talented, are not incredible at it.

OT, but the ability to do a spread eagle is based on whether you can open your hips or not, not on whether you have good edges. Some people can open their hips easily (have great turn-out) and so a spread eagle is like a walk in the park. If you have closed hips, it's impossible, no matter how good your edges are. It's not talent, it's your body structure etc. Obviously though you can work on your flexibility and turn-out, but basically you can either do it or you can't.

And also - I didn't think the article was propoganda at all, how can it be if it's written by an American paper? I thought it was an intelligent and very mature observation on the nation that has continuously produced so many world class skaters, and a discussion on the different mind-set in Russia and the US, eg. by boys and men going into the sport. What's wrong with that? Nothing, IMO. I thought it was very well written.

[Charis]

Originally posted by icenut84
And also - I didn't think the article was propoganda at all, how can it be if it's written by an American paper?


I guess you're not familiar with the NY Times. :lol: Enyhow, I think Michael Weiss was right - most Americans think foreign=better. And the general public is non knowledgeable about skating technique. For example, when people said Oksana deserved gold over Nancy because of her "artistry", the public just accepted it. The Russians do have a flair for the dramatic which impresses North American audiences but judges are supposed to look beyond surface appearances and look at the skating.

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by Charis

The Russians do have a flair for the dramatic which impresses North American audiences but judges are supposed to look beyond surface appearances and look at the skating.

Compare Yagudin/Plushenko to Goebel. Goebel is all about the jumps and both Yagudin/Plushenko do the jumps and more in their actual skating. Ilia Klimkin may not be the most consistent skater - but his programs have a lot of innovation and experimentation by mixing in the elements.

Compare Totmianina/Marinin to Scott/Dulebohn... T/M are all about skating, and people complain they lack flair (go read the predictions where people are picking Shen/Zhao because they show more artistry in their skating, despite having obvious skating flaws like not the best positions in lifts, not the best SBS spins, bad throw technique for the male, etc).

Consider that all the top North American dance teams (B&A, L&T, B&K) have Russian influence - be it Igor or Nikolai.

Slutskaya has had more skating than Kwan, while being less consistent overall in competition. Yet the turns on one foot and various other elements in Slutskaya program has in the past far outdone Kwan. Kwan in the past of course has the better packaging, use of arms, etc (that the North American audiences love, as you claim), Slutskaya could use better packaging.

The judges are looking at the skating, and they have enough reasons to reward the Russians. ;)

Oh and someone tell Michael Weiss - freedom blading is *NOT* skating in my books. :P

[MyTripleFlutz]

This same phenomenom happened in the ballet world back in the early 80's with all the Russian defectors. Nureyev, Baryshnikov, Makarova, and other defectors received instant acclaim for their talent while similarily talented Americans were shoved aside. Dancers like Gelsey Kirkland, Eddie Villella, Peter Martins, Allegra Kent, even the divine Suzanne Farrell, went relatively unnoticed in the shadows of the Russians.

Not that American skaters are going by unnoticed by any means, but Russians seem to be able to capture attention a bit easier than American skaters. I think some of this attention still stems from the fact that under the Soviet system the Russian athletes were a bit of a mystery, and America tended to have rather "romantic" notions about these people.

Mystery = Intrigue

[JillLaQ]

I've said it before and I'll keep on saying it. It comes down to work ethic. They have it in Russia. Here they don't. I think it was Plushenko's coach, damn if I can remember his name, that said " A dog with a full stomache doesn't run as fast a a hungry dog." Think about it.

[pittypat]

Originally posted by JillLaQ
I've said it before and I'll keep on saying it. It comes down to work ethic. They have it in Russia. Here they don't. I think it was Plushenko's coach, damn if I can remember his name, that said " A dog with a full stomache doesn't run as fast a a hungry dog." Think about it.


Work ethic? I disagree. Isn't the one really big problem with many Russian men and ladies, the lack of their endurance during competition? And isn't that because they don't run through their entire program during practise?

I am not saying Russians don't work as hard as everyone else but I don't think that most non-russian skaters work any less harder than the Russians, either.

Mishin....spelling???? is Plushy's coach.

[Germanice]

I truly believe Russians skaters are better, because they just HAVE to be. They have to work much much harder, they have to be sooooo much better only to get at least the same recognation, appreciation from us-audiences and paychecks from us-skating-managers which every mediocre us-american skater almost gets for nothing. And I don't wanna even talk about endorsements! :evil:

Anke

[proam]

Originally posted by Germanice
I truly believe Russians skaters are better, because they just HAVE to be. They have to work much much harder, they have to be sooooo much better only to get at least the same recognation, appreciation from us-audiences and paychecks from us-skating-managers which every mediocre us-american skater almost gets for nothing. And I don't wanna even talk about endorsements! :evil:

Anke

So tell me Germanice, why you think Russian skaters deserve any US endorsements?

Also, Yags fans lament about Yags not having any endorsements and I have wondered why.
Endorsement does not automatically come to those with medals; endorsements have to do with the value of the person with the medals.

[duane]

Originally posted by proam
Endorsement does not automatically come to those with medals; endorsements have to do with the value of the person with the medals.

exactly.

yagudin may be extremely popular with die-hard skating fans, but if one were to randomly ask people on the street who Alexei Yagudin is, they'd probably give that :?? look while replying "Is he the leader of Russia?".

yagudin appears to be extremely popular in Canada and other Nations, but i think here in the US, his popularity is confined to skating fans only.

[IgglesII]

Originally posted by duane
exactly.

yagudin may be extremely popular with die-hard skating fans, but if one were to randomly ask people on the street who Alexei Yagudin is, they'd probably give that :?? look while replying "Is he the leader of Russia?".

yagudin appears to be extremely popular in Canada and other Nations, but i think here in the US, his popularity is confined to skating fans only.

Which is true of skaters in general in the US. Take Kwan, for example - for everything she has won, her endorsements would still pale in comparison when put side by side with Serena Williams' endorsements.

[Germanice]

So tell me Germanice, why you think Russian skaters deserve any US endorsements? Well, maybe because I'm just thinking quality should be more important than nationality ...
endorsements have to do with the value of the person with the medals. Lesson No. 1: kwan has "value" because she's us-american and Slutskaya, Yags, B/S not, because they're Russians! ;)


Originally posted by duane
exactly. yagudin may be extremely popular with die-hard skating fans, but if one were to randomly ask people on the street who Alexei Yagudin is, they'd probably give that :?? look while replying "Is he the leader of Russia?". So Yags doesn't get endorsements because the majority of the us-people are mixing him up with Putin (... the leader of Russia, BTW ...)? 8O 8O 8O Hell, what education system do you have over there? :lol: :) :P

Anke

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by Germanice

Lesson No. 1: kwan has "value" because she's us-american and Slutskaya, Yags, B/S not, because they're Russians! ;)

It goes further than just being American, and certainly "skating" is not the key factor to endorsements - its "marketability". Consider that so far, it seems that both Lipinski and Hughes (who both won the Olympics) and Kerrigan (despite the high publicity 1994 events) seem to be worth less to advertisers than Kwan.

What makes Kwan marketable to the American public is the perceptions (true or otherwise) of various personality traits that seem to fit the American model of the ideal "ice princess". The same attempts to market Kerrigan failed - she simply wasn't right for that role. I would venture a guess that even Eldredge does not have the "mass market" appeal of Kwan.

As far as skating audiences go - the American crowd response has always been in relation to popularity more so than great skating from what I've seen. At the last COI I attended, Slutskaya got the most token applause, and Kwan the strongest response... Slutskaya's skating even if you don't like her, can't be *THAT* much worse - in the degree of applause difference.

It baffled me when the crowds in Dallas didn't respond enough to Belbin/Agosto's Elvis exhibition number... it was a fun piece and had good skating - I'm almost positive they'd have gotten a Canadian crowd on their feet, but not the American crowd. No wonder Yagudin has always said he wants to settle now in Canada - they appreciate his skating - but even Yagudin in the US doesn't get nearly the applause he deserves.

Purely skating - Yagudin is far and beyond, a much better skater than Kwan is. True, there's the male/female unfairness in the comparison, but Yagudin pushed the bar both technically and in artistry. Kwan is only beginning to show a shadow of what Yagudin can do as far as footwork, and hasn't landed the hardest combos that other ladies skaters have (she'd have to have at least 3-lutz/3-toe or 3-loop/3-loop to be a female equal of Yagudin).

[duane]

Originally posted by Germanice
Lesson No. 1: kwan has "value" because she's us-american and Slutskaya, Yags, B/S not, because they're Russians! ;)

that has something to do with it, but not all. usually, value is immediate for a female Olympic gold medalist. michelle, who has never won olympic gold, has value not only because she is american, but mainly because of her dominance of the sport for so many years, and her sportsmanship.

and, not being american doesnt prevent one from getting US endorsements. oksana benefited from massive publicity generated from the famous WACK, while the female tennis player who makes the most money in endorsements--anna kournakova--has the "ideal" look (tall, pretty, long blond hair) that companies look for.

So Yags doesn't get endorsements because the majority of the us-people are mixing him up with Putin (... the leader of Russia, BTW ...)? 8O 8O 8O Hell, what education system do you have over there? :lol: :) :P

LOL!! seriously tho, i dont think the average american would know a yagudin from a plushenko from a kulik. they would probably guess that he is a hockey player.

even if yagudin were American, i dont think the endorsements would be piling up. companies arent lining up to sign male figure skaters. many Americans still view figure skating as a "girl's" sport. and, most male athletes (football, basketball, baseball players, etc) make the bulk of their endorsement money from sportswear companies--nike, reebok, etc. When performing, figure skaters dont wear sportswear. rather, they wear elaborate costumes and ice skates. ;)

[Messalina]

Enyhow, I think Michael Weiss was right - most Americans think foreign=better.

Maybe that's because, when it comes to the men's field, foreign IS better.

[Germanice]

Great entry, Adrian, thank you! :D Hopefully you won't get flamed for the last passage of it. :( ;)

Yeah, take Yags, take kwan, both in normal condition, and let them skate right one after another in front of ANY audience but the us one. There's not a single doubt who'll get them on their feet and who won't.

Anke

[Messalina]

Enyhow, I think Michael Weiss was right - most Americans think foreign=better.

Maybe that's because, when it comes to the men's field, foreign IS better.

[Charis]

I don't think you should compare male and female skaters technically.

If Yags is so popular abroad, why isn't he touring in Europe? Why waste time with the stupid "us" audiences who don't appreciate him? I personally have always liked his banana program --Russian artistry at it's finest.

[rack]

At the Albany SOI, there was a group of well co-ordinated teenage girls, who before Todd skated, yelled, "We love you Todd!" and before Sale/Pelletier skated, yelled, "We love you David!" and before Yagudin skated, yelled, "We Really love you Alexei!"

And for that matter, there was a girl sitting two seats away from me, who at age 14 kept a skating scrapbook, the way girls used to keep movie star scrapbooks, and had quite a crush on Brian Joubert.

So presumably there could be a way of marketing non-American male figure skaters to young American teenage girls if anyone wanted to bother.

[rack]

Here are other reasons why Michelle has so many endorsements (and no, I don't have a life, and yes, I think it would be very funny if a thread on Russian men skaters turned into a thread on Michelle).

Unlike any other recent singles skater (and certainly unlike any other American skater), Michelle went into two Olympics as the presumed (by Americans) favorite. That meant that when skating gets the most media focus, Michelle was on the most magazine covers, had the most interviews, etc. If you throw in the 1994 Olympics, that's three different Olympics where she was a major story.

In addition, Michelle has an extraordinary number of U.S. National championships, which are regularly shown prime time live on ABC (and thus have higher than normal ratings) and an extremely high number of World championships (which are occasionally shown live in prime time on ABC). This gives her a huge amount of audience recognition, which she backs up with victories.

Michelle (unlike, say Midori Ito, or Irina) has the body type people associate with ladies figure skating. Her costumes are well thought out, her music choices generally quite appealing, and she looks the part of a skating champion.

And as far as I know, there's never been even a whiff of a rumor of bad behavior on her part, so her sponsers undoubtedly feel comfortable using her as a spokesperson, which enables them to extend her services with them.

[proam]

Originally posted by Germanice
Well, maybe because I'm just thinking quality should be more important than nationality ...

So what does quality have to do with endorsements?
I say not a darn thing because it is all about the skater as a person.

If a skater doesn’t have the character, likeable, personality, a “story” and most important a connection with the country and the general population he/she is not going to get any endorsements no matter the “quality”, whatever that means.
Yags is not endorsement material in the US or even Canada for a number of reasons, which I will not get into.

BTW, does Yags have endorsements in Germany? ;)

Originally posted by Germanice

So Yags doesn't get endorsements because the majority of the us-people are mixing him up with Putin (... the leader of Russia, BTW ...)? 8O 8O 8O Hell, what education system do you have over there? :lol: :) :P

Anke

You really have Yags too high on a pedestal. :roll:
If you think Yags is high enough on the food chain to be confused with Putin you are sadly mistaken, except for skating fans no one in the US knows who Yags is.
BTW, I knew Putin is the Russian President. :roll:

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by proam

So what does quality have to do with endorsements?
I say not a darn thing because it is all about the skater as a person.

Exactly - skating quality seems to have nothing to do with endorsements, which is a sad state of affairs, because true atheletes who perform, are not always recognized.

Competitive skating is about what you do on the ice, not off the ice. The stories and personality and other factors should not matter, given a knowledgable audience.

You really have Yags too high on a pedestal. :roll:

And many Americans have skaters such as Kwan too high on a pedestal - for reasons other than actual skating performance. Yagudin is the absolute best all-around male skater in the world today. Unlike Kwan, he can actually deliver when it counts the most! He's set an example that even has Kwan/Cohen/Plushenko/etc trying to follow in his footsteps of improving their footwork. ;)

Yagudin deserves such a high place on a pedestal - for his skating talent no less.

[Germanice]

Originally posted by proam
...... You really have Yags too high on a pedestal. :roll:
If you think Yags is high enough on the food chain to be confused with Putin you are sadly mistaken, except for skating fans no one in the US knows who Yags is. BTW, I knew Putin is the Russian President. :roll: That's really, really praise-worthy, Proam! ;) Because unfortunately most of your fellow countrymen don't! :) :) :) But it'd be even more praise-worthy if you'd learn to tell the difference between jokes and seriousness ... ;) :P

..... even if yagudin were American, i dont think the endorsements would be piling up. companies arent lining up to sign male figure skaters. ... and eldredge's huge chevy contract, Duane? And, even more interesting, for WHAT did he get it? Oh, let me guess, for his impressive collection of NUMEROUS Olympic medals maybe? ;)

This is my last entry on this thread. :) It's senseless to comment anything else. It seems to me some posters (not all!) here desperately need to take some stars and stripes from their eyes! You'll see, life could be sooooo much clearer without them! Come on, just try it, it's not that hard than you might think! 8-) :twisted:

Anke

[proam]

Adrian, you are taking my quote “You really have Yags too high on a pedestal.” out of context. The quote has nothing to do with Yagudin’s skating, but Germanice’s perception of how Yags popularity in the US.

Here is the entire quote by Germanice
“So Yags doesn't get endorsements because the majority of the us-people are mixing him up with Putin (... the leader of Russia, BTW ...)? Hell, what education system do you have over there?
Anke “

Here is my response to those quotes:
“You really have Yags too high on a pedestal.
If you think Yags is high enough on the food chain to be confused with Putin you are sadly mistaken, except for skating fans no one in the US knows who Yags is.
BTW, I knew Putin is the Russian President.”

Now if you want to put Yags on a pedestal because of his skating that is fine with me, but please use your own pedestal and not mine. ;)

BTW, I do not believe that “Yagudin is the absolute best all-around male skater in the world today.”, right now, IMO, that would be Evgeny.

Also you may not like the reason endorsements are handed out, but either of us have a say, that belongs TTPTB.

I think I’m done.

[grondahl]

"BTW, does Yags have endorsements in Germany?"





That's a good question. I would think that Germanice, as a Yags fan, would be more concerned with that, then bashing Americans on the various message boards whenever she gets the chance.:evil:

[Skatewind]

Originally posted by Germanice
... and eldredge's huge chevy contract, Duane? And, even more interesting, for WHAT did he get it? Oh, let me guess, for his impressive collection of NUMEROUS Olympic medals maybe? ;)

This is my last entry on this thread. :) It's senseless to comment anything else. It seems to me some posters (not all!) here desperately need to take some stars and stripes from their eyes! You'll see, life could be sooooo much clearer without them! Come on, just try it, it's not that hard than you might think! 8-) :twisted:
Eldredge has the Chevy contract because of the tie-in with the USFSA since Chevy sponsors them. If he is no longer going to be a competitive skater, it will probably go to another competitive skater at some point in the future as long as they remain a USFSA sponsor.

No need to be rude Germanice. On the previous page you indicated your hope that someone wouldn't be flamed for an opinion, yet you're doing exactly that with your remarks.

Bottom line, endorsement deals are primarily the business of the commercial advertising world, not the skating world. If you feel that strongly about who's entitled to endorsements, don't buy a Chevy or VIOXX or Campbell's soup if you don't care for the skaters endorsing the products. But at least recognize that other than that, it's out of your control & that has nothing to do with who's seeing stars & stripes.

[duane]

Originally posted by proam
BTW, I do not believe that “Yagudin is the absolute best all-around male skater in the world today.”, right now, IMO, that would be Evgeny.

this is a matter of opinion, and my opinion agrees with proam! ;)

[Charis]

Well, I'm thinking that maybe we are too narrow-minded here. I think our skaters should start marketing themselves more in Russia and Europe and hire Russian and European PR agents to demand that they be included in any and all skating events in these countries and also to make sure they are portrayed in a favorable light by foreign media.

I also think it would be a good idea if our up-and-coming skaters went over to Russia to train. They should demand that the Russians move over and share their ice time with foreigners. This is only fair. After all, we would only be doing them a favor exposing them to our superior work ethic and training techniques. It's about time those slackers learned to run through their entire programs in practice.

Of course, there may be some sacrifice on the part of Russian skaters who are still training in Russia (if in fact there are any) however in the long run I think everyone would benefit from such an arrangement.

[Blue Ridge]

Charis, why are you so full of hate?

[loveskating]

Originally posted by icenut84
OT, but the ability to do a spread eagle is based on whether you can open your hips or not, not on whether you have good edges. Some people can open their hips easily (have great turn-out) and so a spread eagle is like a walk in the park. If you have closed hips, it's impossible, no matter how good your edges are. It's not talent, it's your body structure etc. Obviously though you can work on your flexibility and turn-out, but basically you can either do it or you can't.

And also - I didn't think the article was propoganda at all, how can it be if it's written by an American paper? I thought it was an intelligent and very mature observation on the nation that has continuously produced so many world class skaters, and a discussion on the different mind-set in Russia and the US, eg. by boys and men going into the sport. What's wrong with that? Nothing, IMO. I thought it was very well written.

Exactly, whether you can do a spreadeagle easily or not is a matter of the structure of the body, and so it is, IMHO, when it comes to great edging, its a matter of the structure of the body...and just because we don't know yet exactly why, doesn't mean its not a good theory...again, the kind of really great edging that sets a skater apart even among the most elite is IMHO a natural thing (of course, anything can be messed up by bad instruction, even a great voice).

[loveskating]

Originally posted by Charis
Well, I'm thinking that maybe we are too narrow-minded here. I think our skaters should start marketing themselves more in Russia and Europe and hire Russian and European PR agents to demand that they be included in any and all skating events in these countries and also to make sure they are portrayed in a favorable light by foreign media.

I also think it would be a good idea if our up-and-coming skaters went over to Russia to train. They should demand that the Russians move over and share their ice time with foreigners. This is only fair. After all, we would only be doing them a favor exposing them to our superior work ethic and training techniques. It's about time those slackers learned to run through their entire programs in practice.

Of course, there may be some sacrifice on the part of Russian skaters who are still training in Russia (if in fact there are any) however in the long run I think everyone would benefit from such an arrangement.

Yes, its so very sad and cruel when the skaters in the world's only remaining superpower are so obviously ill treated and oppressed by those poor, nasty barbarians, flooding our rinks with their superior skating skills and taking "our" ice time...why in the WORLD would our spectators want to see someone like the gladiator, Spartacus, instead of a nice, good Roman boy! I can't fathom it.

[Skatewind]

Originally posted by Blue Ridge
Charis, why are you so full of hate?
In all fairness, it's clearly just not Charis in this particular thread, so don't only limit it to one extremist.

[Blue Ridge]

Skatewind, you feel free to take on the others.

[Skatewind]

No thanks. I tried to make a reasonable observation earlier & can see it's a lesson in futility this time.

[Spinner]

C'mon people, take it back on topic... --Spinner

[Charis]

Aw, Blue, I know you miss me. :) Take it back on topic. What was the topic? "Why the Russians still rule figure skating" The word rule as I said can be taken two different ways. Are we supposed to pretend that the Russians "rule" because they have the greatest skaters or because of bloc judging. Viktor Petrenko and Oksana Baiul's Olympic performances are two of the best examples that the Russians certainly don't rule when it comes to quality.

IMO, the main reason the Russians have been able to rule is because of the rule change, pardon the pun, to make the presentation mark the tie breaker. This way the judges can do whatever they want and just say it was "artistry". The uninformed masses who don't know anything about figure skating technique and who have the perception that anything foreign must be superior will just accept and forget.

[Blue Ridge]

Originally posted by Charis
Aw, Blue, I know you miss me.

so, much, Charis, just soooooo much... :roll:

[Spinner]

Originally posted by Charis
Aw, Blue, I know you miss me.
Originally posted by Blue Ridge
so, much, Charis, just soooooo much... :roll:
It's been asked once to keep it on topic, it won't happen again after this. If you feel the need to bicker about what happened on other boards, take it to private message or e-mail. It doesn't belong in a skating topic in the Skating News forum. --Spinner

[icenut84]

Originally posted by Charis
Are we supposed to pretend that the Russians "rule" because they have the greatest skaters or because of bloc judging. Viktor Petrenko and Oksana Baiul's Olympic performances are two of the best examples that the Russians certainly don't rule when it comes to quality.

I'm sorry but I gotta agree with Blue Ridge on this one. Charis, it seems like every single post I see from you is attacking "the Russians". Can't you change the record? You wrote something about the Russians robbing Nancy before too (on FSU). Sorry Spinner - just one post, I have to say this. There's just a couple of things wrong with your theory:

1) The winner, Oksana Baiul, WAS NOT RUSSIAN. She represented Ukraine! And she didn't even ever represent a Unified team, seeing as 1993 was her first year of competing.
2) There was no Russian lady in a challenging position at all.
3) There wasn't even a Russian judge on the panel.

Yet you still believe Nancy wuz robbed by the Russian Federation. Yeah whatever. :roll: Grow up. There was plenty of people who agreed with the result, even if you obviously didn't.

IMO, the main reason the Russians have been able to rule is because of the rule change, pardon the pun, to make the presentation mark the tie breaker. This way the judges can do whatever they want and just say it was "artistry". The uninformed masses who don't know anything about figure skating technique and who have the perception that anything foreign must be superior will just accept and forget.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought the reason for the rule change was to make sure skaters concentrated on their artistry aswell, that skating didn't turn into a jumping contest. Obviously though, it must have been to benefit those evil East Europeans who can't really skate to save their lives, right? Can't you just accept that every sport has some countries that consistently produce top quality athletes in that sport? In skating, it's Russia. In gymnastics, it's probably Romania, Russia and USA. In rugby, it's England, Australia, New Zealand, etc. Get over it already.

[Charis]

icenut, I notice a trend in your posts too. We're all entitled to our opinions, aren't we? At least mine are based on facts. I shouldn't bother to respond to your uninformed nit-picking but Ukrainians are Russian, Ukraine is formerly part of the Soviet Union, Oksana identifies herself as Russian....

Bloc judging is just that a bloc of several different nations led by the Russian federation.

As for the presentation mark preventing jumping from taking over, :lol: :lol: :lol: . That's all that matters now is jumping, jumping, jumping and not even good jumping. Flutzes, underrotating, lack of flow, doesn't matter as long as you jump, jump, jump!

[adrianchew]

I was hoping it wouldn't come to this, but obviously what I've heard about Charis elsewhere holds true, and in line with my previous announcement about poster quality...

http://www.skatingforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3197

So buh bye! ;)

And perhaps now this discussion can get back on topic.

[loveskating]

When it comes to jumps, it was Michelle Kwan who brought us the second lutz performance...and it was Elvis Stojko who brought skating the quad -- both forcing everyone else to do the same if they wanted to win -- hardly Russian!

As for bloc judging, you CANNOT have one bloc without having another...its impossible in reality or as a concept...for instance, if you have no war and no peace, no up, no down, you have something else altogether, those concepts need one anohther just to even be conceptualized and you cannot get rid of one without getting rid of the other at the same time. If there was no war, the concept of peace would disappear as well.

Therefore, just as soon as someone raises the issue of a bloc, you can bet that they are either already in a bloc or about to form one!

There are two blocs, one based on the former Soviet Union, the other based on the United States and other NATO countries, which is based not just on politics, but on culture as well. Hardly surprising!

[Meredith]

. . . not responding to anyone in particular, but I believe the Russians remain dominant because of the quality of their technique. Until all the Russians who learned that technique quit coaching or die off -- or both -- I don't see that changing.

[duane]

Originally posted by loveskating
When it comes to jumps, it was Michelle Kwan who brought us the second lutz performance...hardly Russian!

i give this credit to kristi. doesnt change your point, tho. :)

[icenut84]

Originally posted by duane
i give this credit to kristi. doesnt change your point, tho. :)

I agree it doesn't change the point but I was going to reply that I thought it was Lu Chen :D I know she did two lutzes in 94 anyway (before Michelle was on the scene), and I don't think Oksana or Nancy did, but I didn't know about Kristi. :) What about Midori? Didn't she do two lutzes?

[loveskating]

Originally posted by icenut84
I agree it doesn't change the point but I was going to reply that I thought it was Lu Chen :D I know she did two lutzes in 94 anyway (before Michelle was on the scene), and I don't think Oksana or Nancy did, but I didn't know about Kristi. :) What about Midori? Didn't she do two lutzes?

Maybe I'm wrong, but if I recall, lots of people did a second lutz this time or that, and I think Kristi did a 3 lutz/3 toe loop at the Olympics, but Kwan was the one who made the second lutz in the LP standard, expected, necessary.

Also, similarly, Stojko was not the first to land a quad, but since he did it consistently, he forced others to do so...it was not even allowed in the SP for a long time, the quad, I mean?

Anyways, I agree, the Russians dominate because of the very high quality of their skating overall...and I respect them for putting it on the ice where it belongs.

[loveskating]

I think the only reason the Russians don't get endorsements etc. is because they are not Americans. Oksana and also Katia are the exception. I think a Russian or anyone from anohter country except for the Brits has to do something to make people love them as a person to get past the nationality issue.

Oksana represented goodness in the middle of an extreme cat fight at Lilliehammer, and no matter what anyone says, that SP of Oksana's was a masterpiece, really elegant, really exceptional, and she was an orphan, so Americans just loved her and her skating; Katia won my heart aside from her skating, which I already loved passionately (and I think almost everyone else's) for her courage in facing the tragedy that befell her. I myself couldn't wait to read her book because I wanted to understand how she found that courage...its very hard to go on and not be bitter after a loss like that.

I think businesses and others "choose" someone based on them having made some kind of impact among some section of the people that they want to market to. But they have to choose you. Kulik made a huge impact on young women and the teeny boppers who watched the Olympics, but they did not choose him.

The "product" part really comes in as to what specific product you embody...with Katia, its perfume, probably because she is so very beautiful and elegant; with Oksana, it was other things, like her spirit; with Kristi its wholesomeness and delicate beauty...

I agree with those who say its not based on the skating...if it were, then Ilia Kulik would have been all over the place, and now Yagudin.

[Skatewind]

Good points loveskating.

[duane]

i know kristi landed two 3lutzes in both LPs at 92 Worlds and 92 Olympics (at the Olympics, she landed a 3lutz/3toe. forgot if she landed this combo at Worlds). i remember the commentator at Worlds saying something along the line that it was kristi's "trademark" to land a 2nd 3lutz near the end of the program. i didnt become a fan of FS until 94, and later bought the 92 Olympic and World tapes, so i was taking the commentator's word that kristi was known to land two 3lutzes.

not sure about midori.

regarding endorsements, i think being male more prevents yagudin, kulik, etc, from getting endorsements than being russian. american women have dominated the ladies discipline for many years, but those nonAmerican ladies who have won Olympic gold have done well in endorsements, perhaps more so than scott hamilton and brian boitano. i think if blond, handsome, sexy alexei were instead blond, gorgeous, sexy alexia, the endorsements would have been flowing in! ;)

[Meredith]

Good points, both loveskating and duane.