Stop the Madness?

[Spider68]

At the risk of sounding like a socialist, I wish the powers that be (USFSA in my case) would enact minimum age limits for the levels (separate for ladies and men) and the maximum allowable jump. I read on another board that an 11 year old completed a 3-3-3 combination. Great! We'll never see this phenom because her hips will give out. We really must try to "help" skaters and their coaches from pushing young bodies to perform "tricks" that can permanently injure them before their bodies are ready to handle the repetitions and impacts. I realize this is a Quixotic dream...gotta do the jumps to stay competitive, but since figures won't ever come back (and I truly believe they helped "hold back" the skater until he/she matured), this is the next best thing.

[Spinner]

As much as I wholeheartedly agree with this idea, it'd be too tough for the USFSA (or ISU for that matter) to regulate. One has to wonder though, how many blown hips and/or knees do we need to hear about before someone 'higher up' pays attention? :??

[JD]

Smile....

some of us just remain the nasty ole parents who insist on their skater's health being protected......and waiting till a little later to attempt some things.....

[Meredith]

Originally posted by Spinner
One has to wonder though, how many blown hips and/or knees do we need to hear about before someone 'higher up' pays attention? :??

My first reaction is, where on earth are her parents?

Edited to add, "Way to go, JD!"

[Spinner]

Originally posted by JD
and waiting till a little later to attempt some things.....
Three cheers for JD! ;)

[Blue Ridge]

ignorant question since I am not involved in skating, but how well informed are parents about the risks of doing certain things?

[Trillian]

Was this 11-year-old who landed the 3-3-3 a U.S. skater? It sounds more like the kind of thing we'd hear about from the Japanese girls these days. I don't know of anyone in the U.S. doing that kind of combination, let alone an 11-year-old.

Either way, though, I agree that I'm sick of hearing about talented young skaters who force themselves out with injuries. I question how much age minimums would accomplish. We've got juvenile girls working on triple jumps even when they're not allowed to put them in their competitive programs at that level--they're going to be trying to get the harder jumps no matter what level they're at. A lot of it will depend on how much long term perspective a skater has, and of course most kids at that age don't have much.

If you look at someone like Michelle Kwan, a lot of the reason she's still a high level competitor at 22 is exactly the reason she's been criticized in recent years--she hasn't overdone it with the triple-triples. The hard jumps are necessary for a skater to medal at the elite level, and realistically a skater has to be doing them by a fairly young age to have hopes of world class success, but it's going to have to be a matter of striking a balance. A skater has to have enough jump content to be competitive, without having so much content that they're going to end up getting hurt, and it's pretty hard to find that middle ground these days. Still, I think that, and not getting all the jumps immediately, shoudl be the focus of the skaters; otherwise, they're likely to have peaked athletically before the rest of their skating is developed enough to allow them to contend at the top levels.

The other things very young athletes tend to ignore is the importance of warming up properly before they go out and try all these jumps, and not doing too many repetitions; chances are a lot of injuries could be avoided if more attention were paid to things like that.

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by Trillian

The other things very young athletes tend to ignore is the importance of warming up properly before they go out and try all these jumps, and not doing too many repetitions; chances are a lot of injuries could be avoided if more attention were paid to things like that.

This last paragraph should be highly emphasized. Its not likely that age limits or anything short of some adult being there and stopping the child - having much of an effect.

Proper warmup and sensible training habits to avoid countless repetitions of the same jump goes a long way. I would guess that most coaches are not sensitized to the problem enough to re-learn their coaching methodologies to ways that are going to ensure less injuries occur.

[JD]

Totally agreeing with everything Adrian and Trillian said....

warm up--what a concept....!!!! good stretch up, stroke out, cool down is the ultimate assistance in protection...

That being said, the reason, as we've been told, by sports doc that the hip flexor is the thing to go is not necessarily related to warm up....its the muscle development in the area between the swivel bones [I can't remember his phrase right now] and the side abductors, and that some of this development is in fact related to puberty, so..I don't know ....anyway, he said all these silly ballistic movements in warming up muscles by swinging the legs around apparently does nothing but hurt that area.....he commented once it would be far better to do, as he calls them, fire hydrant squats.....on four legs to help develop muscles in these areas...grin...given that he has worked with many skaters prior, I'm willing to take his word for it....

As for parents, how many are educated on this stuff? NOT ENOUGH.
Coaches however, also should be paying attention to, and reading books related to child athletes and their development-muscular and otherwise...as I'm sure many do....

[Spider68]

It was a Japanese skater, I believe.

And yes, warm-ups are important and critical. While I was among the mothers that moaned and groaned during "patch" and what a waste of time it was (wrong!), in retrospect, those daily 45 minute sessions of slow deliberate tracing, with the shifting weight from edge to edge probably strengthened the backs and hips...at least they gave the skater knowledge and control of their body. Sad to say, "moves" do not.

[rack]

Might one solution to the problem be limiting the number of triple jumps allowed in junior (and obviously younger) long programs?

It seems to me the juniors are putting in the same number (or attempts) at jumps as the senior skaters, but in even a shorter amount of time.

Having them limited to three or a maximum of four triple jumps would almost force them to concentrate on other aspects of skating (and limit potential damage to growing bodies).

[what?meworry?]

at junior nationals and at novice at nationals usfsa hosts very comprehensive programs for both the skaters and the parents that cover multiple aspects of training, including nutrition, warming up and safe training. they also discuss the psychological side of sports.

:bow: thank you trillian for posting the incredible importance for warm up and also cool down after skating. and another bow to your judgement about appropriate timetables for training pacing for physical land mental development.:bow:

[Sylvia]

The girl is question is Japan's Mao Asada, 12, the current Novice champion, who also placed 4th at Junior Nationals in November and 7th at Senior Nationals in December, where she landed a 3axel(cheated), a 3flip-3loop-3toe(toe was very cheated) combo, a 3lutz-3loop(loop was cheated) combo and a 2nd 3lutz. She certainly is VERY talented for her young age -- small, with skinny legs, good spins and flexibility, and a charming smile. She is coached by Midori Ito's former, and now Yoshie Onda's and Yukari Nakano's current, female coach, Machiko Yamada. I sure would like to see Mao Asada skating at 16 and beyond... or at least injury-free and competing on the Junior Grand Prix in the fall of 2004 (she's not age-eligible until then).

There's also an ongoing discussion of this topic on the Usenet rec.sport.skating.ice.figure newsgroup:
rssif newsgroup discussion thread (http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&threadm=20030214132817.10142.00000506%40mb-fc.news.cs.com&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dgroup%253Arec.sport.skating.ice.%20fi gure%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26safe%3Doff%26site%3Dgro<br%20/>ups)

[bladegirl]

I don't think any Americans have to worry that our skaters will injure themselves doing extreme jumps, judging from the last Nationals.As for the rest of the world, I don't think the powers that be are going to suddenly make the competitions safe for the U.S. ladies. It's just the way things are.

[what?meworry?]

but it is the many girls who never survive long enough, due to injury or burnout or eating disorders that you don't see at nationals more than one or two seasons, that are the loss and the problem. far too many promising skaters are lost this way before thay become "names" case in point, deanna stellato, to name just one.

[JDC1]

I think it depends on the situation but I do think parents should be better informed about the proper training. I skate on Monday nights with these 2 very talented young skaters, they're like 9-10?, she's just about got her double axel and a few other doubles and he's working on is double axel and double salchow. I NEVER see them warm up or cool down and sometimes all she does is jump, jump, jump. I just hope neither of them , but particularly her, get a repetition injury. She's also a rather bad spinner and my spirals are better than both of theirs so they're are definitely other aspects of their skating they could be focusing on. Neither mother seems particularly "engaged" one knits or reads and the other sits in the "lobby" out of the cold. I'm not trying to suggest that the mothers must become experts but I wouldn't leave my childs health in the hands of any coach particularly one that's still relatively young himself.

[Clarice]

If she's working on "a few other doubles" and the other jump he's working on is double salchow, I'd guess that it's a single axel they're both working on, not a double.

[kayskate]

I don't know how true this may be, but I have heard from people involved in competitve skating (such as coaches I know personally) that school figures kept the outrageous level of jumping down. Young skaters spent so much time working on figs (3 hrs/day) that it severely reduced the amount of time available for freeskating. They simply did not have time to work on 3axels, 3-combos, etc. It also kept the younger skaters out of the higher levels since it took so many yrs to perfect the figs and pass the tests.

Kay

[bladegirl]

School figures kept many great skaters from ever competing. Janet lynn lost because of them and should have won gold. Most of the skaters who won gold years ago would never be able to compete with the techs today.

[Poohsk8s2]

As I see things, the demands on the bodies of these young girls won't stop until the judges stop rewarding them. Too often, a skater at the lower levels will perform a packed, balanced program with clean doubles, only to see a skater who zamboni'd the ice attempting triples take the higher score. This was quite evident at Regionals in New England.

Now the message sent is go home and pound the ice until you've landed those triples... it's ok to do this at age 13, 14, 15 (sarcasm)... but let's not forget that Tara Lipinski took the gold and now has had to have the muscles in her hip surgically attached.

Parents are not seeing immediate injury, so it doesn't sink in. And prudent parents that work with the best health interests of their skaters in mind, continue to dump enormous money into a system that sets up someone they love for failure unless they take the risk at long term/future injuries.

It is a Catch 22. I think age and jump limitations WOULD allow for greater physical development of skaters and ultimately a stronger international presence. Unfortunately, I don't se that happening in the future.

[what?meworry?]

Originally posted by bladegirl
School figures kept many great skaters from ever competing. Janet lynn lost because of them and should have won gold. Most of the skaters who won gold years ago would never be able to compete with the techs today.

yes, that is so. however, completely taking the lid off, so to speak, by removing the school figures, created the extreme opposite problem of too much emphasis and training time on just the jumps. this can physically hurt kids. it can destroy what otherwise could have been a successful career if they had taken the time to develop gradually.

your reference has to do with the combined event period of skating. once they were separated, brilliant freestyle skaters could succeed. it was the technical combination of school figures that was the problem.

and such is life that some really brilliant freestyle skaters failed to be fully recognized in their time.

but each skater deals with such setbacks, difficulties, in their own maner. and hopefully they look inward and realize that thay skate for themselves, not for the superficial approval of others.

that said, you skate to be the best you can be. screw the "relative posititioning" of others who would judge you.

[bladegirl]

All I can say is Worlds ought to be interesting , enlightening, as well as telling.

[JD]

Just to add again...

Although I agree with lots of things Poohsk8s2 has said....I think how a prudent parent behaves may have a lot to do with practical considerations on size, age, and whats around you in terms of skaters.

We're the ones with a 48 lb 10 yr old that has lovely double combos, nice multirotation combo spins [that look better than many of the girls in juvenile-for the time and attention paid to them] and she is working on figures, [yes, figures] to develop her edges so that her lines are clean and smooth. She was able to take time to do this because the jumps came fairly easily. These pieces are what people are missing in the rush to push out those jumps.

At the early age of 10, her blades barely make a sound on the ice, even when spinning....in Canada, these levels from what we have seen and heard are advanced for her age but more importantly her size. When she doesn't look any bigger than a 7 or 8 yr old at provincials, grin...we know this is an advantage...and we are not out to make the national/world/olympic team tomorrow. She is still age-eligible for Juvie for another whole season...

I repeat: Just because you can do it, doesn't mean you should.

Tara is an excellent example of the problems this sport conjures up. I don't know that I see putting money into my child's health as a problem.
I think the key is prudent, not fearful. Risk of injury is one thing, a high likelihood of injury is something else. Isn't it a waste of talent to push too far, too fast without considering the impact on a young skaters body? Particularly when it is not necessary at that point in your skater's life?

Everyone is right about needing a balance. We struggle with it all the time. But we want our daughter at the end of the day to also have a life, a healthy body that can enjoy the sport in whatever capacity she chooses for years to come, and a gift to pass on to someone else, if she chooses. She already PA's at her club with Canskaters, many of whom are bigger than her..and she loves it.

We want her to have the technique, the skill, the love and the ability to pass her gift along to some other little girl when her turn comes. We want her to travel the world, to see what life has to offer...and if this traveling comes in terms of a skating tour and not an Olympic ring, this is not necessarily a bad thing. But it will be her choice to make when she is a little older, maybe a couple of years, not ours.

I remember was it Elizabeth Kwon...a beautiful young skater who my daughter and I thought was a real up and comer....and where is she now? Done....IIRC, and probably because someone thought it was a good idea to help her advance quickly...to be noticed...to win....

The sport is about more than jumps.

The new system coming into place in terms of judging elements, I believe from a seminar I was at with the talent id program that the system may level out the playing field at least for the younger level, even if it is a problem in the older levels, because the emphasis will be on quality, not quantity. And jumps and spins will pretty much count equally...it is not, contrary to how it seems, all about the jumps-at least not for the lower level, so a skater will have to have a more complete package. It means the young whippersnapper out there with the non-neat 3-3-3 combo is not likely to get as many marks as the skater with a clean double axel and clean spins. For all the faults of the new system, I think this is a good thing.

Just my [early] morning thoughts on this debate....:) ;)

[Poohsk8s2]

I think that there ought to be more parents like JD in this sport. ITA with what skating can offer your child, outside the scope of world class medals.

When I spoke of prudent parents, it was not as a critism, but as empathy. Parents that endeavor to keep their skater on course, to keep their skater healthy, often meet with frustration when it comes to medal placement. Unfortunately, on the other hand... not everyone acts with the skater's healthy development in mind. This is not to say it is intentional either. Many parents rely on the expertise of coaches to advance their athlete in an appropriate fashion... yet few of these coaches have adequate understanding of physiologic development. As you said, just because you can do it, doesn't mean you should do it.

I look forward to any changes that will benefit the long term well-being of young skaters. I believe that there is so much the port has to offer, which is why, in spite of the flaws, we continue to spend our time at the rink.

[JD]

I figured thats what you meant, Poohsk8s2 re prudent parents, but as with everything so hard to tell with email (very big smile)....but I think its important though too for people to understand that prudent really does mean prudent and thoughtful with lots of factors in mind , not fearful just to be fearful and thats also why I addressed it...

plus, I am a little sensitive to this one, because we are constantly second guessed by everyone around us at the rink...and really, how do you truly know-I don't believe you ever will-that skater X is the "one"...
I mean, life happens, should we risk everything for that one intangible---lots of people say yes....

....and we've seen the pendulum swing the other way too where after Suzy skater scrapes her knee, the parents are so fearful of the "big injury"...the athlete never really gets to do anything else, and yet they still pour the money in....

As parents, I guess we all walk a pretty fine line...

Thanks Poohs8s2 for your thoughtful impressions of the sport....

PS...I too believe the sport has much to offer outside of those medals....

[arena_gal]

Originally posted by JD

Everyone is right about needing a balance. We struggle with it all the time. But we want our daughter at the end of the day to also have a life, a healthy body that can enjoy the sport in whatever capacity she chooses for years to come, and a gift to pass on to someone else, if she chooses.

This is healthy, but you're a voice in the wilderness, you know that. I support you. However, in the past few meetings I've been to, the subject of burnt out, bitter skaters walking away from the sport comes up again and again. Where does it all start? about age 8 I think, then the skater and family spends the next 7 or 8 years mortgaging the house (and grandma's house too) and pushes for getting the jumps because to get any recognition, the skater needs the jumps, even cheated, to say, oh sure she can do a triple loop. To get the right coach, to be in the right club, to be in the right section even, for the recognition because politics are not dead. I'm not blaming the parents, its the entire skating culture and we're all caught up in it. It's hard to take a different path.

Somewhere in that swirl around the skater the basic joy of skating gets lost. The skater gets lost.

I do like the direction that Skate Canada is going regarding judging of elements, to take some of the jump pressure off these teenagers is a very good start.

[Skatewind]

Originally posted by JD
I remember was it Elizabeth Kwon...a beautiful young skater who my daughter and I thought was a real up and comer....and where is she now? Done....IIRC, and probably because someone thought it was a good idea to help her advance quickly...to be noticed...to win....

Why use Elizabeth Kwon as an example of this if you are unsure whether she is even the skater you want to mention or if you are unsure of the specific circumstances that led to her no longer skating? I know her, so just wondering...

[bladegirl]

I will never understand the push to make a daughter a skating champ. Only a very small percent ever make it big yet each year millions are spent trying to make some poor girl into something she probably will never be. Why can't parents just let the kid skate? It's obvious the U.S. skaters are not in the jump mode right now and the rest of the skating world is,thats just the facts. Complaining isn't going to change the way international top skaters train or compete. I never hear these complaints in ski jumping or any other sport and I'm sure those competitors did not start extreme training after age 18 and suddenly were ready for Olympic competition. As I said before, the powers that be in international skating are not going to make things nice and safe for the American ladies. The U.S. ladies will just have to decide if competing is worth it.

[JD]

I was using Elizabeth Kwon because I remember the lovely skater. I did not remember how to spell her name correctly and clearly I should have clarified that.

She was the example I opted to use, as she touched our hearts as a lovely young skater.

If you know her, thats wonderful. please tell her she touched many hearts with her elegance and artistry.

In any event, sometimes I type as I am musing.....so sometimes the interpretation comes out differently...again, my apologies....

Also, as for injury issues, I'm sorry but I understood she retired as a result of injury, I believe it was mentioned at 2002 Nationals, on TV no less, and different news articles since in the skating world have certainly cemented that feeling....so if I'm wrong, my apologies, but I think the statement is fair to make, particularly since articles have mentioned it.....

A quick read of this sums up the injuries issue, as well as the fact that Kwon retired: [hope this works]

http://www.google.ca/search?q=cache:qGPdyVKyoj8C:www.post-gazette.com/sports/other/20010318skate7.asp+%22elizabeth+kwon%22%2Bskating&hl=en&ie=UTF-8


Cheers all

[Skatewind]

Originally posted by JD
Also, as for injury issues, I'm sorry but I understood she retired as a result of injury
Yes, but retiring from injury is one thing, saying it's because "someone thought it was a good idea to help her advance quickly...to be noticed...to win..." is something different. Do you want to share who that statement would apply to, a coach, parent, or someone else? Or was it purely speculative?

[JD]

I believe the word "probably" in that sentence would denote speculation....I was making a comment and a guess

this is going nowhere....so I'm done on this thread....

Cheers all

[Spider68]

We can never be absolutely sure that Tara, Elizabeth Kwon, Naomi, Susan Ng and many, many more ladies (why not men, I don't know...) have chronic injuries which may or may not be attributable to over-training the triple jumps. I can say, though, that I have my little list of the current triple-jump phenoms that will predictably be "retired" within the next few years. It doesn't matter what the name is, you probably all have your's. And yes, we can voice our concern, but this madness will continue. Whether it's skating or any other endeavor, we get caught up in with the current, young phenom only to toss them aside when they are injured and go on to the next "star". Best of luck to everyone. By the way, my young phenom will complete her gold test and walk away uninjured with a full academic scholarship to Stanford (yup, I'm bragging). She got out of skating what she wanted, and managed a real education. By the way, her goal is to become a orthopedic surgeon specializing in skating injuries.

[Lee]

Hey, Spider...you sure we aren't sharing a daughter? While mine doesn't have the full scholarship, she is planning on going into biomechanics with an eye to sports medicine in the future.

She did *try* the competitive route, but ended up messing up her back somewhat with the repeated pounding trying to get the 2-axel and 3-toe consistent. Along the way she managed to get all her gold tests and diamond dances and is now a very successful 1st-year coach, with students ranging from pre-preliminary to Gold.

Yeah, I think she's done okay. We have occasionally looked back and wondered if we should have done more to get her in a position for better coaching, more ice time, etc. but in the end we let her decide -- and her actions spoke way louder than any words. She wasn't prepared to make that commitment and rip up her roots to do so.

She's still competing (hoping to make it to StarSkate Finals in Brampton) and loves the sport -- still. I wonder if she'd be in the same position if we'd pushed her when she was younger? *shrug*

[Skatewind]

Actually, this is a very interesting topic, & a relevant one, generally speaking.

[Skatingsarah]

The thing about the USFSA giving out money that there is possable no promise. Sure they maybe doing the jumps at 11 or 12, but just wait until the growth spurt. Some of the talented skaters really loos alot of there jumps and have to develop more technique or if that proper technique to compete with the big guns are they age. So before any association can support these talented young skaters they should wait. You never know with all these jumps maybe an 11 year old could rip there knee out of place and never be able to skate again. What do you think the country would feel about this after they so called spent money on the kid. I mean stranger things have happened

[miki_tan2]

Originally posted by bladegirl
I don't think any Americans have to worry that our skaters will injure themselves doing extreme jumps, judging from the last Nationals.

I heard USA's intermediate champ Melanie Drogseth landed
triple axel in warm-up of USA Junior Nationals.

I doubt it but a Japanese journalist who lives in USA and
is skaters mon tells that coaches were there talked about it.

[Trillian]

Originally posted by miki_tan2
I heard USA's intermediate champ Melanie Drogseth landed
triple axel in warm-up of USA Junior Nationals.

I've seen Melanie skate a number of times and I can say pretty definitely that she didn't do a triple axel. Her jumps are big and clean and she's had a triple sal for a while, but at this time last year she was having trouble getting a reliable double axel (her placements in summer competitions suffered a little because of that from what I saw). She did get that jump in time for Junior Nationals, but I think it's unlikely she had a triple...yet. :) (Watch out for Melanie, though--she's extremely talented and a tough competitor, and should wind up as a force on the national novice level next year if she can get another triple.)

[blue111moon]

It seems to me that somewhere in the last 20 years or so a lot of people developed the idea that EVERY skater if pysically and mentally capable of becoming a champion if they:

- work long enough and hard enough every day

- want it bad enough to sacrifice school, friends, and every chance at a so-called normal life.

- have the right coach, choreographer, sports psychologist, costume designer, music editor and physical trainer on their team.

- have parents willing to drain the bank accounts and mortgage the house to pay for the above.

Worse, there's a lot of parents who feel that their child is ENTITLED to be a champion because they've done everything they were supposed to do.

Somewhere along the line people have lost sight of the fact that not every child can and will succeed at any given task. Sometimes it's sheer physical limitations: the body is not capable of perfomring the task, no matter how many times it's attempted or how much pracitce is put into it. Sometimes it's mental - the child just doesn't have the brain functions or temperment to withstand the pressures or the pain or the extended effort Sometimes it's a combination of both. Factors combine and dreams are not always reached, no matter how hard you work.

The fact remains that not every child who starts an activity is going to excell at it, no matter how much the child - and his/her parents might want it. Not every child is capable of learning multiple-rotation jumps, for any of a thoudsand reasons. That doesn't mean that the child should give up on that activity and find something else. It does mean that expectations need to be changed and adjusted to suit the indivdual. It also means accepting the concept that a child who does not reach a set goal is not a failure nor somehow less of a person because of it.

Passing rules and limitations at the top isn't going to change attitudes at the bottom. The Driven-to-Win people will find ways around those rules or simply opt for another activity that is less restricted.

[bladegirl]

Great post blue. Yes many parents are in a state of delusion and will remain so. They will yell and moan and try to get the rules changed, sign petitions against the new judging - while the rest of the skating world outside the U.S. forges ahead. If they are worried about safety, they shouldn't have children in competition. Great ski jumpers, ect, don't learn their extreme skills after age 18, as I have said before. These parents need a helping hand into the real world of sports, all sports have an element of danger.

[BABYSKATES]

Skating, although a sport, has not traditionally been an extreme sport. I would love it if a separate discipline could be invented to satisfy all those who believe more is better. We could have extreme ice acrobatics or something like that...

I hope my child won't be expected to do a quint-quad-triple by the time she reaches the senior ranks. Of course, if that is the expectation, she can become National champion without all that since everyone else will be out with injuries...;) :) :lol: ;) :D :o :lol:

[bladegirl]

I rest my case.

[BABYSKATES]

Good morning Bladegirl! Just wanted to tell you that I am the parent of a precocious little 9 year old skater. I am not delusional. I'm looking at the big picture. My child's ability will take her where it takes her. Period. I can support her, maintain the best possible coaches, be sure she stretches and warms up well, etc. My hardest job is to help her make choices that will keep her healthy despite the push she gets to do more, more, more! There are children in our area who are my child's age who land double axels (a little cheated?) and as I watch them land and sink their weight into their tiny little hips, I think, "Please coach, teach that child to land while pulling up so she doesn't have a Tara injury to the hip." Accidents do happen but it isn't an accident if you do nothing to try to prevent it from happening. My daughter will use her legs to walk for longer than she will use them for competitive skating. I know kids (more than one) who have been big noise in the skating world who are forgotten by 16 and who have chronic joint problems. They skate now in knee braces, pop Advil like candy and have to be satisfied finishing low in the standings because they did too much, too soon. They were successful at 12 and 13 but that early success cost them true success. The risks they took weren't reasonable in the long run.

I was laughing while I wrote my first post but I do think the pendulum will swing back as it always has. Injuries will always limit the progression of the sport. I don't think it is furthering the sport to land a triple axel if that is all you can do and the rest of your program looks like a preliminary level skater. That is why there is a presentation mark. There is more than jumps. Do girls need quads? Ask yourself why so many men are out with injuries or skating with extreme pain.

I come from a family of athletes, none of whom retired due to injuries. We are a family of THINKING athletes. We have a legacy of protecting our children. We also have a legacy of world records and Olympians. Delusional? I think not. We're proven right. My child may not make the Olympics but she will have had fun, learned goal setting and discipline. She will be health, God willing, and strong. If she leaves the sport with just those things, she's a winner.

[JD]

Babyskates:

Standing up and clapping on your last post

[trying so hard to refrain from any further commenting-grin]

[Skatewind]

Originally posted by bladegirl
If they are worried about safety, they shouldn't have children in competition.
:?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:
I guess that must an extreme opinion to go along with a push for extreme sports.

I agree with blue111moon & I also see the injured athletes like the ones Babyskates refers to all the time. There's nothing noble about doing that to any kid's body although it looks like there is definitely some ignorance involved.

[blue111moon]

The human body is still evolving. 100 years ago medical experts claimed that jumping on skates would impair a woman's ability to have children. Fifty years ago scientists stated that the human body was incapable of withstanding three rotations in the air. Thirty years ago quadruple jumps were believed to be impossible.

Better nutrician, better equipment and better training have proved all those beliefs to be wrong.

But the thing to remember is that while some human beings may indeed have the exact combination of bone, muscle fibers and balance to push the envelope to another level (quads, perhaps quints, even); not every child will. Maybe if we're lucky medical science will come up with ways to evaluate a child and ascertain which activities the child will excell at and save thousands of would-be athletes the frustration of attempting to mast a sport they just aren't physically capable of. Even then, I bet there will be more injuries and drop-outs and "failures" than their are success stories. Such is life.

[BABYSKATES]

You should meet my little girl. She is a great kid. She is confident, really funny and popular. She feels good about herself and people feel good about her. She is already a skating success story. Whether or not she becomes a skating star, I'm glad she tried. Skating has given her a lot already.

Even being wildly talented won't guarantee a place on the Olympic team. It's what you put in it and get out of it along the way that is the measure of success. Not being on the Olympic team is not a failure. I spend a good deal of time at rinks with other parents and the majority of them seem to have reasonable perspective. Of course there is always that one who gives us all a bad name...

We do spend a lot of money on skating but so what? You ought to see my child's face after mastering a new skill. You'd understand why I say, "It's only money." If I knew in advance she wouldn't be a star in skating, I would still let her do it.

Most people aren't physically or emotionally capable of being top athletes. That is why the ranks are so much slimmer from Novice on up. The sport is supported and thrives because it is open to anyone and there are so many different types of success. I just hate to see so many truly talented skaters injured without some response from the skating federations. I know I'm just dreaming.

[bladegirl]

Spend away Babyskates but don't start complaining when the judges award the girls with the harder jumps. It is possible to do them, Midori did them 10 years ago-lol. The international compitions will spell out for you what is expected in the near future. Thank God for Speedy.

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by BABYSKATES

I know kids (more than one) who have been big noise in the skating world who are forgotten by 16 and who have chronic joint problems. They skate now in knee braces, pop Advil like candy and have to be satisfied finishing low in the standings because they did too much, too soon. They were successful at 12 and 13 but that early success cost them true success. The risks they took weren't reasonable in the long run.

At the highest levels, its make or break by that age. If you aren't a "known" name by 16 for ladies, you're a no-name that's never going to get anywhere at the elite levels. The most such a skater can hope for is qualifying for Nationals, but not much beyond. In reality, its a gamble, and its certainly not for ever parent or skater.

Skating, even competitively at lower levels with less difficulty and chances of injuries - is still a great sport to have a child involved in. From what I hear and from some of the skaters I talk to, I have no qualms about introducing a child to the sport, and if they like it, supporting them.

I do firmly believe that the final decision on how much risk to take, is something to be made between parent/child - and shouldn't be the sport organizations or others dictating what they do, but out of their own willingness and an understanding of the risk. I'd be happy if parents and skaters got the necessary education to the risks and possibilities, but beyond that - it should be left to the individual family to deal with the limits.

If someone was to ask me for my opinion about what their kid should do - I'd give it. For me, life is all about risks, you haven't lived until you dare to live... its not about being silly, but I'd go jump out of a plane with a parachute, if I took lessons for it, of course. I wouldn't push a child but if they had the desire to give it their all, I wouldn't advise getting in their way. Someday that child might grow up to resent their parents, if they never got to truly explore their potential... but I would still understand some restraint to prevent outright silliness (that's when the adult has to step in!).

[Lee]

(waiting for the day when Adrian's a parent...:P)

[bladegirl]

Once again Adrian, you have come to speak the truth. Reality is a great leveler isn't it?

[Poohsk8s2]

I do firmly believe that the final decision on how much risk to take, is something to be made between parent/child - and shouldn't be the sport organizations or others dictating what they do, but out of their own willingness and an understanding of the risk. I'd be happy if parents and skaters got the necessary education to the risks and possibilities, but beyond that - it should be left to the individual family to deal with the limits.

I agree with much of what you have said Adrian, but I do believe that the governing organizations have a responsibility to the athletes to oversee safety. They are often the greatest source of knowlege, and should use that knowlege to guide the athletes. Right now I don't see enough of this information circulating to coaches, parents and athletes. As you said ( in paraphrase), if you aren't known by age 16, then you might as well call serious competition a wash... and it is in this light that parents and coaches are anxious to allow their athlete to push through elements that their bodies may not be developed enough to handle. Often, because the injuries are not immediately evident, the assumption is that no harm has been done... yet there are now instances that prove this may not be the case.

In regards to falling behind the Russians and Europeans competitively, I also believe that in the long run, a tighter rein on limiting jumps for young skaters will produce stronger, more enduring and greater athletes. But that's JMHO.

[bladegirl]

We have been under jump limits for about 40 yrs in the U.S. It wasn't until the great Midori started jumping that bigger jumps for ladies were even considered. It of course took an international skater to do this. Harding to this date, dispite what anyone thinks of her, is still the only U.S. ladies skater to do a 3/axel in adult competion. I for one do not have another 40 yrs to wait for this. I will always be greatful to the powers that be for the changes being put in place. No-one is forcing children to jump, at the same time no international judge is going to reward your little ice princess for a safe skate any more, maybe in the U.S. but not in the international world of skating.

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by Lee

(waiting for the day when Adrian's a parent...:P)

My challenge will be keeping my own enthusiasm in check so that I have a healthy perspective and know when to stop what is way too much, given I know my risk tolerance levels are pretty high. In other words, how not to become a "skatedad from hell", hehe! :P

With my luck - I'll probably have kids that want nothing to do with the sport at all! :(

[BABYSKATES]

Originally posted by bladegirl
Spend away Babyskates but don't start complaining when the judges award the girls with the harder jumps. It is possible to do them, Midori did them 10 years ago-lol. The international compitions will spell out for you what is expected in the near future. Thank God for Speedy.

It's not about judging or spending. It isn't even about what is possible to do. It's about injuries to athletes.

The last rule made for the protection of the skaters was probably banning backflips. I am concerned about the longterm risks to MY child who, by the way, is a gifted jumper.

Kids are getting injured at an alarming rate and I'm not sure why. Obviously there are kids who can do these huge skills. Most of the top athletes who are injured didn't start doing quads or triple triple triples at 12. So that's a whole different issue. The question as I see it is will the kids be better and stronger if they start these huge skills earlier in life than if they wait until they aren't so vulnerable to injury. Is there a time in which they are still young enough to learn the really hard stuff but physically mature enough to minimize the risks of injury? I only have my opinions. I honestly don't know. That is why I joined this discussion. As Adrian said, the amount of risk each athlete takes is a decision that should be between the parent and child. That is their job. The judges should reward the best work as they see it. That is their job.


I respect the point of view of all of the posters.