Three questions, a comment, and a request

[rack]

I'll start with the questions (and thanks in advance to those who answer- I always appreciate the time you take and the education you provide).

1. On many occasions I've seen skaters doing sit spins go down much lower on one leg (usually the first sit spin) than the other. Is there any reason why one leg sit-spins better than the other?

2. I've read references to over-rotations of jumps (although I don't remember ever hearing any TV commentator mentioning them). Why are over-rotations bad? I would think an extra quarter turn or so would be a good thing, assuming the landing is clean and the run-out of the jumps remains strong.

3. Sometimes when I watch a triple toe/double toe combination, the double toe looks more like one big single toe jump. I even will slow-motion the jump, but generally that only confuses me more. Is the double toe part of a combo kind of like the neighborhood play in baseball- if it's close enough no one is going to argue, or am I simply not seeing it right?

Now the comment. Has anyone else noticed that in Sarah Hughes's short program spiral sequence, she does her dazzlingsmile spiral last of her three spirals? Since I'd asked about spiral sequences last time, I am happy to take full responsibility for this choreographic revolution.

And finally the request (and this should be an easy one for many of you out there). I've been having a really nice week and I'm in a very good mood. So will someone please post something so irritating that I'll get to post back, "I don't give a royal flying flutz!" I'm yearning to say this, and not only have I had no reason to of late, but even in my social circle, it would have very limited meaning.

Thanks again to all.:D

[jwcardinal11]

1. On many occasions I've seen skaters doing sit spins go down much lower on one leg (usually the first sit spin) than the other. Is there any reason why one leg sit-spins better than the other?

It's usually the case that skaters are lower on their forward sit than their back sit (even though they are on their stronger landing leg on the back sit). And especially with the male skaters, their back sit spins sometimes REALLY suck (e.g., Kulik and Plushenko). I attribute that to the fact that forward spins are practiced first, and usually forward sits are as early as waltz jumps and early single jumps. So skaters get a lot more used to the position and the centering at an earlier stage, leaving a lot more time for improvement. Back spins are generally taught later, sometimes as late as the single axel and early double jumps. So even though the back spin is on the landing leg, the positions are sometimes not all that great. Personally, I think it's nice when the forward sit and back sit match in good positions (like Michelle's and Tara's).

2. I've read references to over-rotations of jumps (although I don't remember ever hearing any TV commentator mentioning them). Why are over-rotations bad? I would think an extra quarter turn or so would be a good thing, assuming the landing is clean and the run-out of the jumps remains strong.

Overrotation is not good because it means that you are not quite sure where your body is in the air. If the landing is clean and the edge flows out, then there is no mark-down of the jump. But it is just not a good sign if a skater overrotates the jump half the time and does it with full rotation the other half, merely because it may mean that he/she is not "feeling" the jump as well as he/she could be.

3. Sometimes when I watch a triple toe/double toe combination, the double toe looks more like one big single toe jump. I even will slow-motion the jump, but generally that only confuses me more. Is the double toe part of a combo kind of like the neighborhood play in baseball- if it's close enough no one is going to argue, or am I simply not seeing it right?

I think perhaps you are talking about what skaters lovingly call the "toe-axel." That happens when the tap on the double toe goes so far around that the take-off seems to go from a forward edge, so really doing some sort of 1 1/2 rotation on a double jump. I won't go into the actual technique of the toe-loop (it is not the easiest thing to explain and there are disagreements depending on the coach you have of how exactly you get the lift off the toe). Not too many will argue about a toe-axel, though it isn't pretty. ... Or perhaps you were talking about a completely different thing.

Hope it helps. :D

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
www.stanford.edu/group/figure-skating (http://www.stanford.edu/group/figure-skating)

[adrianchew]

The first sit spin you're referring to is likely a front sit spin, and the second sit spin you're referring to is likely a back sit spin. I'm almost certain those are the two spins you're comparing. I'll let someone more knowledgable comment to why one might be harder than the other, but the direction of rotation is definitely different.

Over-rotated jumps - bad because they show a lack of control/timing possibly. And if its so far overrotated that its landed facing forward, its usually not very pretty to see the results of that landing. ;)

As for 3-toe/2-toe... hmm, I see it more with 3-lutz/2-toes. Very often the 2-toe is a small jump.

[MyTripleFlutz]

As per your request.....

Hey Rack!!! I think your questions are stupid!!! And so is your dog!!! :D

[Ellyn]

Adding to jwcardinal11's good answers...

The balance over the blade is somewhat different in a backspin than a forward spin, especially in more extreme positions, which affects how low you can get on the sitspin and still control the spin and get back up again. Also, skaters might lace the boot of the landing foot tighter for support and thus not be able to bend the ankle as easily.

The term "overrotation" can be used to refer not only to a skater rotating more than the necessary rotation in the air, but also to a skater failing to check (stop) the rotation *after* the landing. So there's nothing extra in the actual jump, and a lack of control on the landing.

BTW, can I nominate Nicole Bobek as queen of the flying flutz (they did fly!), so you can refuse to give a royal one?

[rack]

So far I love all the responses (although I have noticed a lack of respect for my changing spiral sequences as we know them).

And like all right minded Americans, I don't have any dogs (and my two cats are brilliant, thank you very much!).:lol:

[Gingi]

"possibly it was the blah blah blah"
some very insigtful pontificating!:lol:

[arena_gal]

Originally posted by adrianchew
The first sit spin you're referring to is likely a front sit spin, and the second sit spin you're referring to is likely a back sit spin. I'm almost certain those are the two spins you're comparing. I'll let someone more knowledgable comment to why one might be harder than the other, but the direction of rotation is definitely different.


I read this thread and this error bugged me so much I had to come back so I could respond to this post. Front and back sit spins rotate in the same direction! for a CCW skater, front is on the left leg, back is on the right leg. Why a skater can't go down further in a backspin is due to the balance point as Ellyn said. But, I've seen some pretty sick looking sit spins, especially in sit-change-sit where the back sit was a "back-bendover-a-little-bit spin".

[adrianchew]

Ahhh - I was thinking more forward and backward as direction of rotation, not CW or CCW. :oops:

[what?meworry?]

Originally posted by rack
And finally the request (and this should be an easy one for many of you out there). I've been having a really nice week and I'm in a very good mood. So will someone please post something so irritating that I'll get to post back, "I don't give a royal flying flutz!" I'm yearning to say this, and not only have I had no reason to of late, but even in my social circle, it would have very limited meaning.

Thanks again to all.:D

hey! yo momma eats combat boots! you don't know squat about dance and anybody who's anybody knows that's the "surviver" show of figureskating. so, shape up or ship out!

does that help? i hope so. thank you for giving me the opportunity to help you out. sigh.

[rack]

Originally posted by what?meworry?
hey! yo momma eats combat boots! you don't know squat about dance and anybody who's anybody knows that's the "surviver" show of figureskating. so, shape up or ship out!

does that help? i hope so. thank you for giving me the opportunity to help you out. sigh.

You know my momma! Actually, she would eat combat boots if it would keep this country out of Iraq. And you're right- I don't know anything about dance.

Oh my. Life is hard when you're happy.:??

[arena_gal]

So who has the best back sit spin anyway? Todd Eldridge?