Article on state of US Pairs from Hartford (CT) Courant

[IgglesII]

Written by Tommy Hine, interviewing Garrett Lucash.

http://www.ctnow.com/sports/hc-skatefeat0204.artfeb04,0,4731282.story?coll=hc%2Dh eadlines%2Dsports

[sk8lvr]

It's always interesting to get an athlete's perspective. How unfortunate about the commentating. Most of the commentating at Nationals was negative, so I can't remember exactly what was said about them. Was Peter C. one of the commentators? Usually he has some positive things to say. I like it when there is positives and constructive criticisms.

Thanks for the link.

[bandit]

Actually, Dick did have one positive comment on their free program. He said their triple twist was rather "first rate." ;)

[legjumper]

Well, I would say to Garrett, look at it this way: at least Dick didn't call you a "refrigerator break"!

;)

[haribobo]

Well perhaps the commentating wasn't fair or encouraging, but it was honest and true. The way I feel is that, if Dick is very negative for a bad performance, it will only mean that much more to them when they finally give a great performance and get NICE things said about them. Generally, I feel Dick is a barometer for good skating-- sometimes he focuses on one detail too much, but nobody is perfect. Orscher/Lucash gave a technically competent if totally uninspired performance in the free skate. As Dick has said, "That is both the good point and the point that needs to be improved." :D

[Ivan W]

Originally posted by haribobo
Well perhaps the commentating wasn't fair or encouraging, but it was honest and true. The way I feel is that, if Dick is very negative for a bad performance, it will only mean that much more to them when they finally give a great performance and get NICE things said about them. Generally, I feel Dick is a barometer for good skating-- sometimes he focuses on one detail too much, but nobody is perfect. Orscher/Lucash gave a technically competent if totally uninspired performance in the free skate. As Dick has said, "That is both the good point and the point that needs to be improved." :D

ITA.

From what I have heard and seen about this couple, they may not light it up on the presentation scores but there technical elements are good and they have a leg up on other US pairs in terms of consistency. At least they have coaches (Evgenia Shishkova and Vadim Naumov) who have been there and done that.

[Scott]

I think that the point of the article was more on the hurried expectations that we in the USA have concerning how our pairs should do. Garrett gave some interesting comments contrasting US/Russian outlook. Like he said be patient. Garrett also admitted their weaknesses. I think that his point was we in the USA expect too much too soon and when we don't get it we become over critical and pull any support for the teams.

Quite frankly, if you look at the elements Orscher/Lucash are the strongest out there: concsistant jumps, huge, well executed and beautiful throws and they are the only ones who execute the triple split twist properly and with height too! They were definately off on other elements. But the areas that they were weak on they will improve. I expect that by next year we will see a new and imporved presentation by this pair. As I recall I/Z had similar problems when they started out together. The one exception is that Orscher has only been doing pairs for two seasons now. Quite frankly O/L's record is quite impressive for two seasons: silver medal this year, 5th place last year ( Oly Alternate too!) and a number of international assignments. I would say that this team is on the right track.

I found Garrett's comments insightful. He was concerned with the critics in our bunch who expect too much too soon. Good for you Garrett!

[haribobo]

Oh yes. I understand that-- there is no doubting that this team has enormous potential if they continue to improve as they have been. I did like hearing Garrett's point of view and I agree that we tend to expect too much too soon. On the same token, anyone who is going to be on tv and have experts commentate on their programs should not take these comments as a personal insult, but rather as suggestions on how to improve. I don't have my nationals tapes at the moment, but I'd guess that most of the negative things said about their performance were really little hints on how they could improve. If everyone really improved on all the things Dick and Peggy criticized, we'd have a country full of absolutely lovely and darn near perfect skaters...

I would particularly like to see them work on their lifts and posture-- it really bothers me how Garrett seems to squat down and stick his b-u-t-t (is that bad word?) out anytime he has his arms around Katie or is getting ready to lift her. Something about the breaks in form comes across as horribly unappealing to me. But yes, I think people do need to give them time since they are pretty new. Just as we have waited for Tiffany Scott and Larisa Spielberg to get their solo jumps together, we must wait for Orscher/Lucash to get their pairs skating to a more beautiful level. I would also like to see them working on staying away from music which is wrong for skating (like their SP this year)...they need better advice when picking music I guess? Or maybe just better taste. :p If they get these two issues worked out, they could end up among the top 5 pairs in the world in a year or 2. Good luck to them-- and I hope that by next year they are able to present themselves with more grace and unison on the ice and then they will get the good comments that they really want.

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by haribobo

Orscher/Lucash gave a technically competent if totally uninspired performance in the free skate. As Dick has said, "That is both the good point and the point that needs to be improved." :D

I never got to watch the TV version since my VCR crapped out on me, but this point says it all, and is a reason I'm particularly skeptical about Orscher/Lucash's end potential in pairs.

Its very early on for them as a pair - but they show the same promise, and similar sorts of weaknesses - to Chinese pairs teams. Technically competent, and sorely needing presentation and improvement in other areas besides the SBS/throw jumps. Its taken Shen/Zhao many years to improve their skating, yet even today - they are not nearly in the same league as Sale/Pelletier or Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze - as pairs skaters.

When there is the pairs unison to begin with - it usually can be seen very early on. As new as Don/Hunt might be for example - people already see the unison and pairing - that same exact quality is rarely found in pairs. People who saw Sale/Pelletier early on noticed the same sort of qualities - and this is what I look for in pairs. I find myself similarly drawn in to watching both the Pottenger pairs, and Uhlig/Loomis.

[Alexeiskate]

Their postures bother me. When they do a spiral for instance, Lucas has no stretch to the back or legs whatsoever. Even if a pair haven't been together for long, if they can move around the ice with good posture then that's half the battle.

It always bother me to see skaters at the senior level cannot attain a decent spiral or camel position eventhough they started skating at a very young age. The best time to develop correct posture and flexibility is during their developmental years but it seems like the coaches never thought enough to make them learn such things.

[Scott]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by adrianchew
[B]I never got to watch the TV version since my VCR crapped out on me, but this point says it all, and is a reason I'm particularly skeptical about Orscher/Lucash's end potential in pairs.

You have got to be kidding. Even if their end potential is now, they have walked away with a national silver medal and an opportunity to skate at worlds. That seems very neat to me. That being said you are correct about posture and other elements. But, keep in mind these are relatively easy to fix with the right coaching. The other elements such as the throws, split twists, etc. are the backbreakers. As they develop more confidence their lifting will also improve. In watching the nationals tape I was amazed at how weak all the USA teams were in the lift department. They all looked unsteady. In additional the split twists were not good. Not enough height and the rotations were not complete. Also, there was too much crashing on the exits of the twists. Throws were poor to say the least. The exception being O/L. Their throws are high, far and properly landed. Still I think that we have to take to heart what Garrett said in the article: Give everybody time.

Now, I liked the attack of Don and Hunt but they are far from attaining the unision that is needed. But it is too early for them. They also need a 3split, again that will come. They are attractive and I think have great potential.

I am also watching Spielberg/Joeright who I think are now starting to get back to their old selves. They have the best lifts of any US pair team.

I think that the big question going forward is how will Scott/Dulebohn stand up in the coming year. Hmmm.....

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by Scott

That being said you are correct about posture and other elements. But, keep in mind these are relatively easy to fix with the right coaching.

Actually, I did not bring up the issue of posture. Great pairing is not something that can be fixed - its a quality that even Shen/Zhao today are lacking in contrast to S&P/B&S as I said. Great pairings can be seen from a very early stage - its not something that even Scott/Dulebohn have today, and Ina/Zimmerman never really reached that stage either. Its not something you can fix - its either there, or it isn't.

Skaters can work on their unison, line and other areas - but the "two shall skate as one" aspect will never be truly there.

The poorish quality of Orscher/Lucash's lifts and them winning a silver highlights the lack of overall quality in pairs in the US, at least at the senior level. Schmidt/Pottenger (Novice Pairs) have more secure lifts than Orscher/Lucash... O/L's weaknesses as a pair are pretty glaring, and impossible to ignore.

[Louis]

I don't think the U.S. pairs scene is all that desperate either.

* There were more senior pairs at U.S. Nationals than Canadian Nationals or even the entire European Championships!

* Even the last-place teams had the technical goods. All of the teams were trying triple jumps and a triple throw.

* There were several clean short programs.

* The top six teams, five of which remain, all had two throw triples, a triple twist, and side-by-side triples. They didn't land them all in the free skate, but they can do them.

* There are a couple of new(er) teams with the potential to be top 10 by the next Olympics and at least one potential future world medallist team.

The pairs scene now looks a lot better than it did in 1999, IMO.

[Blue Ridge]

ITA with Louis, and I think this thread exemplifies what Garrett Lucash is saying in the interview, that expectations are too high, too soon and people spend too much time on criticisms and don't also look at the positives. I think the criticisms are valid, but as Louis says, there are positives as well. We need to look at both sides of the coin!

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by Blue Ridge

We need to look at both sides of the coin!

I can see the bright spots - but I don't believe Orscher/Lucash are *it* though. Like I said, Don/Hunt, both Pottenger pairs, amongst others. ;)

Its the lop-sided skills that Orscher/Lucash have/don't have - SBS jump, throw jumps and triple twist vs. what they're lacking in - great pairs spins, SBS spins, pairs lifts, etc.

People need to look at the full picture, and not get caught up in just the jumps and split twists (count me as a non-fan of all Chinese pairs since they all lacked the full package).

The quality is just not there right now amongst top few pairs in the US. Which is why I'm looking at the pipeline for potential - and that's where the bright spots are, IMO.

[Blue Ridge]

Point taken, and I definitely was a lot more impressed with the potential of Don & Hunt, after seeing their SP from Nats, than with O&L but I'm not willing to write O&L off just yet either. The Chinese pairs have successfully improved their skills over time and in the case of S&Z been very successful, needless to say.

[tulip]

Originally posted by Louis
I don't think the U.S. pairs scene is all that desperate either.

* There were more senior pairs at U.S. Nationals than Canadian Nationals or even the entire European Championships!




This means absolutely nothing. It's not about quantity but QUALITY. The quality of pairs at both Europeans and Canadian Nationals is far better than that of the US. Who cares how many teams the US has when they're all wiping the ice, have old school choreography, and weak basics.

[Louis]

Originally posted by tulip
This means absolutely nothing. It's not about quantity but QUALITY. The quality of pairs at both Europeans and Canadian Nationals is far better than that of the US. Who cares how many teams the US has when they're all wiping the ice, have old school choreography, and weak basics.

Fall for fall, I think the Canadian pairs outdid the U.S. pairs. The national champions couldn't manage a clean side-by-side jump throughout the whole competition, something that's fairly normal for them. The silver medallists missed literally everything in their free skate, though I agree that they are the only world-class team in North America at the moment. The bronze medallists don't have a triple twist. I don't see where the Canadian pairs, with the exception of Langlois/Archetto, have a far superior quality. In fact, I think Scott/Dulebohn probably would have won Canadian Nationals even with their disastrous free skate at U.S. Nationals.

Europe doesn't seem all that strong either. Other than the Russian pairs, who is there? A&B? Z&S? They don't have the technical elements either, and I'm not crazy about the quality of their stroking.

The U.S. is lagging behind Russia and China, but I just don't see where it is that much worse off than any other country. I predict that this gloom and doom will turn out to be a whole lot of nothing. The U.S. pairs will do fine, if unspectacularly, at Four Continents and Worlds.

[tulip]

Originally posted by Louis
Fall for fall, I think the Canadian pairs outdid the U.S. pairs. The national champions couldn't manage a clean side-by-side jump throughout the whole competition, something that's fairly normal for them. The silver medallists missed literally everything in their free skate, though I agree that they are the only world-class team in North America at the moment. The bronze medallists don't have a triple twist. I don't see where the Canadian pairs, with the exception of Langlois/Archetto, have a far superior quality. In fact, I think Scott/Dulebohn probably would have won Canadian Nationals even with their disastrous free skate at U.S. Nationals.

Europe doesn't seem all that strong either. Other than the Russian pairs, who is there? A&B? Z&S? They don't have the technical elements either, and I'm not crazy about the quality of their stroking.


I don't care who would have beaten who at Canadians. It's about DEPTH. Right now, Canada and Europe have more depth than the US. In fact, it could be argued that Canada has good depth all the way down to about 6th or 7th place, plus the outstanding junior champions. The same cannot be said for the US. Europe has the top 6 who are all very very strong and who would beat any US team on any day.

Sorry Louis, but I've got to disagree with you. Your views on US pairs is highly optimistic and I don't see things changing anytime soon. Unless, that is, Larissa Speilberg can get a triple jump.

[tulip]

Originally posted by Louis
I don't see where the Canadian pairs, with the exception of Langlois/Archetto, have a far superior quality.

Putnam & Wirtz have a far superior quality than all the US teams and it will be even more obvious once they get better choreography.

[Louis]

Originally posted by tulip
I don't care who would have beaten who at Canadians. It's about DEPTH. Right now, Canada and Europe have more depth than the US. In fact, it could be argued that Canada has good depth all the way down to about 6th or 7th place, plus the outstanding junior champions. The same cannot be said for the US. [/

Let's look at sixth and seventh at U.S. Nationals:

6. Jennifer Don/Jonathon Hunt (new team; JGP Final bronze medallists)
SP: clean with 3toes and throw 3loop
FS: clean 3twist, clean 3toes into 2flips (she fell on the 2flip), clean 2axels, clean throw 3salchow, clean throw 3loop

7. Laura Handy/Jeremy Allen (new team)
SP: touch down of free foot on throw 3toe; otherwise clean including 3toes
FS: 2twist, clean 3toes, clean 2axels into 2toes, slightly two-footed throw 3salchow, clean throw 3toe

That's not depth?!?


Europe has the top 6 who are all very very strong and who would beat any US team on any day.

I guess we'll find out if that's true at Worlds, but I'd be willing to wager that at least one of those teams finishes behind at least one U.S. team. :)

[legjumper]

Originally posted by adrianchew
Great pairing is not something that can be fixed - its a quality that even Shen/Zhao today are lacking in contrast to S&P/B&S as I said. Great pairings can be seen from a very early stage - its not something that even Scott/Dulebohn have today, and Ina/Zimmerman never really reached that stage either. Its not something you can fix - its either there, or it isn't. I somewhat disagree with this. Once in a great while, lightning strikes and you get teams like Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze or Sale & Pelletier, both of whom had unison instantly. (And it didn't hurt that either team was very good-looking, either--definitely the best-looking teams since Gordeeva & Grinkov and arguably even more so.)

But most skaters who enter into pairs are not going to find that "magical" other person to skate with within their own country, especially small countries where there is a very limited number of people skating at all. That's where training and time come in. No, it probably won't be as effective as teams with "natural" unison, but it can still become very good if the skaters are willing to put the time and effort into it and there is enough technical basis to work with. Probably the best most recent example of "learned" unison is Ina & Zimmerman. They looked awful together (at least, they did IMO) when they first started out. Nothing matched. Everything looked like massive amounts of work. There was NO sense of unison between them. I wrote them off every year and felt their "we're getting better little by little" talk was a load of hot air. But their perseverance paid off (I suppose it helped that there weren't any other suitable partners in the U.S. so dumping each other was out of the question), and now they have a world medal and a Stars on Ice contract to show for it.

So to bring this post back to topic, I think Garrett is right in that skaters and fans need to have patience with teams, especially ones like his that have shown they have the technical ability to do many of the pairs tricks reasonably well. If another year or two goes by and there's little to no improvement, then I think it's valid to question the success of the partnership. But their not looking like world contenders within two seasons is a little premature to write them off just yet.

[Trillian]

Originally posted by legjumper
So to bring this post back to topic, I think Garrett is right in that skaters and fans need to have patience with teams, especially ones like his that have shown they have the technical ability to do many of the pairs tricks reasonably well.

Exactly. Writing off a team like O&L because they don't have that "pairs" quality yet doesn't make much more sense, IMO, than writing off an intermediate lady who doesn't have a triple lutz yet. Well, of course she doesn't have a triple lutz, she's an intermediate. Likewise, of course O&L aren't the perfect pairs team yet--they're brand new to the senior ranks and one of them took up pairs skating less than three years ago. We can talk about the "lightning strikes" factor with B&S or S&P, but both of those new teams were at least composed of skaters who had plenty of senior pairs experience. You can't expect the same kind of instant success from a team that doesn't have that kind of experience.

If another year or two goes by and there's little to no improvement, then I think it's valid to question the success of the partnership.

Exactly. And so far, there's no reason to think that's going to be the case--they've been improving steadily in the time they've been competing together. When the improvement stops, then it's reasonable to question their future. Until then, I think U.S. fans ought to be grateful we have at least one team out there that can actually hit those triples.

[haribobo]

Well put, legjumper and Trillian. IMO, it is fine to prefer skaters over others, but to essentially *doom* a skater or team that and say that there is no hope for them, when they are still improving, is unnecessary.

That said, I don't feel that anyone on this thread really *was* dooming O/L, but instead saying that they think others have more potential. While I actually think O/L are one of the more promising teams in the country at the moment, everyone is entitled to their opinions, and we need to respect that. But the minute someone says "this team is hopeless and can go nowhere," I will be quite upset.

[Scott]

Originally posted by haribobo
Well put, legjumper and Trillian. IMO, it is fine to prefer skaters over others, but to essentially *doom* a skater or team that and say that there is no hope for them, when they are still improving, is unnecessary.

That said, I don't feel that anyone on this thread really *was* dooming O/L, but instead saying that they think others have more potential. While I actually think O/L are one of the more promising teams in the country at the moment, everyone is entitled to their opinions, and we need to respect that. But the minute someone says "this team is hopeless and can go nowhere," I will be quite upset.

Better put!

And for all you naysayers I think that we have in the USA a pretty good future in the pairs events. Several potential teams coming up the ranks, which includes O/L by the way. They are new, lets remember that! Don and Hunt ( who btw did not do a triple split twist at Nats, it was only a double, Louis!), will be there ( they have energy to say the least. There are others including the improving and more experienced Spielberg/Joelright team. I wouldn't write any of them off especially after reading about the results at Canadians and Europeans. I say we encourage our teams and hope that they all suceed. I am sure that we will all be watching for improvements thisa year and that we will get them. It will be interesting to see what happens at the next two major events ( 4cc's and worlds!). We are in transition and will be the better for it.

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by legjumper

So to bring this post back to topic, I think Garrett is right in that skaters and fans need to have patience with teams, especially ones like his that have shown they have the technical ability to do many of the pairs tricks reasonably well.

No one is writing them off - but I believe people are premature in jumping the gun as suggesting they might be the "next" pairs team for the US. The problem is exactly that some people are ignoring that half their pairing skills and tricks are sub-par - add in the lack of natural unison - and there's a long road ahead. Time can fix a lot of that possibly, but its too early to tell if they can be "great".

When Novice skaters have more security in their lifts, its pretty revealing of some of the areas that they need to work and improve on. They should take anything said - even on TV - as areas they possibly need to work and improve on - and when they do, I'm sure those nitpicks of Dick might turn to praises instead. ;)

And Trillian is wrong to imply that O/L are the only team that can hit those triples. There are a lot of teams as Louis notes attempting them, and I wouldn't be surprised to see some of the other pairs do more in the future, including possibly seeing 3-toe/2-toe combos from at least one US pairs team by 2006.

[legjumper]

Adrian, who is suggesting that Orscher/Lucash are the next big U.S. thing in pairs? :?: I just re-read this thread, and people are either pointing out things they need to work on (which are many), or gratefulness that they are able to land the jumps and throws with reasonable consistency. Saying the U.S.'s future in pairs is not entirely bleak is far from crowning O&L as "the next." IMHO, you're the one who seems the most negative about them, with your list of all their weaknesses and comparing novice teams to them as being better. I feel like you want it all (and I think it's safe to say we all would like to see the complete package in every team), but Katie and Garrett can't give you that right now. Furthermore, when you use words like "glaring weaknesses," "sorely needing presentation," and "poorish quality" to describe them, you sound more negative than Dick and Peggy were, combined, and while technically this isn't "writing them off," the implication is there. I don't know if you intended it to sound that way, but that's how it came off to me.

The truth is that this year, at least, Orscher & Lucash got the job done when other pairs--other more talented or better matched or more experienced pairs--DIDN'T. Let's at least give them credit for being on the right track, even though they're not very far along yet.

[Louis]

Originally posted by Scott
Don and Hunt ( who btw did not do a triple split twist at Nats, it was only a double, Louis!)

Don/Hunt definitely completed a *triple* twist, which was a new addition for Nationals, as the first element of their long program. Others who were in the arena can confirm this.

[adrianchew]

Never said Orscher/Lucash wasn't on the right track - but I certainly understand if there were criticisms coming for Dick/Peggy/others. Doesn't mean people are writing them off - just pointing out their weaker areas. ;)

As for Don/Hunt - yes, I saw and can confirm the triple twist in their LP. 8-)

[tulip]

Originally posted by Louis
Let's look at sixth and seventh at U.S. Nationals:

6. Jennifer Don/Jonathon Hunt (new team; JGP Final bronze medallists)
SP: clean with 3toes and throw 3loop
FS: clean 3twist, clean 3toes into 2flips (she fell on the 2flip), clean 2axels, clean throw 3salchow, clean throw 3loop

7. Laura Handy/Jeremy Allen (new team)
SP: touch down of free foot on throw 3toe; otherwise clean including 3toes
FS: 2twist, clean 3toes, clean 2axels into 2toes, slightly two-footed throw 3salchow, clean throw 3toe

That's not depth?!?

Still not buying it.

What I'm trying to say is there a difference. You might not see it, but there is.

-Langlois and Archetto have made the GPF and medaled at all three of their GP events
-Lariviere and Faustino were top 10 at worlds and Olympics and are pulling in some 5.4's for presentation from international judges even when they're falling all over the place (think Nations Cup)
-Putnam and Wirtz and Marcoux and Buntin have only been together SIX months and it could be argued that they're already looking stronger than any of the US teams shown on ABC.

And don't forget the ages of these teams. They're all YOUNG (with the exception of Archetto). Scott and Dulehbon and Inoue and Baldwin are both 26 and what, 29 or 30? Aren't Baldwin and Dulebon 29 or 30 years old? Compared to the Canadian teams....L&A (21/29), L&F (21/23), P&W (18/23), M&B (22/23). That's not even including the CDN junior champs who placed second at the junior grand prix final, who have senior level content, and who are only 14 and 17.

On that note, I realize this is totally off topic and I apoligize for that!

[adrianchew]

tulip - Don/Hunt were right beside Dube/Tetrault at JGP Finals - they finished 6th at Nationals (senior, just missed getting on ABC, and a case could be made that they were undermarked in the short, allowing them to have made the final group), they've only been together for a few months. Not only that, but Jenny Don finished 11th in singled in the very deep US senior ladies field at Nationals. I believe she's 18 and he's 22... plenty of time.

The US may not have answeres immediately, but watch out to see what comes in the next few years. And as much as I prefer Langlois/Archeto to Orscher/Lucash - O/L's jumps are more reliable than L/A. ;)

[tulip]

Adrian I think you mean Don and Hunt were right behind Dube and Tetreault. I know that Don competed in singles. Jessica Dube competed in singles too. She placed 5th in junior ladies.

And Adrian by the time O&L get the rest of their skating up to world class standard, Langlois & Archetto will be long gone from the eligible scene. ;)

[adrianchew]

tulip - right behind them in the standings and oh - umm, not exactly but close to right beside them on the podium! :oops:

US ladies - especially Senior Ladies - is a super tough field. Jenny Don might have been 5th or higher if she skated in Canada, Sr. Ladies. ;)

And if Langlois/Archetto continue improving - I hope they'll remain around for a while yet - at least till 2006 certainly.

[legjumper]

LOL, since when did this thread become the "Why Canadian pairs are better than U.S. pairs" thread??

[tulip]

Heh, what I'd like to know is how many threads actually DO stay on topic.

Off to start a "why American Ladies are better than Canadian Ladies" thread......:lol: j/k

[Trillian]

Originally posted by adrianchew
And Trillian is wrong to imply that O/L are the only team that can hit those triples. There are a lot of teams as Louis notes attempting them, and I wouldn't be surprised to see some of the other pairs do more in the future, including possibly seeing 3-toe/2-toe combos from at least one US pairs team by 2006.

I didn't say that Orscher & Lucash are the only team who can do the triples--I said they're one team (note I said "at least one") who aredoing the triples with consistency at this point. Big difference, and it does matter. They haven't been 100% this season either, but element for element I believe they've hit more of the "big" jumps and throws than any other U.S. team. And while that doesn't mean everything, it certainly means something. All these teams you're referring to who have a better pairs quality or stronger lifts than O&L at this point have just as much to improve as they do--it's just different things they need to improve.

Incidentally, Orscher & Lucash will most likely be one of those teams trying 3toe-2toe combinations in the future--if they haven't already (?). I would assume we might see harder triples from D&H too, if she can get them--Hunt was a much better singles skater than most of his fellow male pairs skaters, and definitely a better jumper than his partner is at this point.

[Scott]

Adrian and Louis I believe that you are wrong concerning the triple split twist for Don amd Hunt. I have checked this out out someone who has a tape of the entire event and they tell me that in the long D&H did a double split twist. Since I don't have the tape I can't confirm this first hand.

I also think that the point of this thread is completely being overlooked. I agree with the others here who have made the point that no one ever indicated that any pair team is being crowned as the "next" or as great. Wasn't Garrett saying that The Russians have a different approach that doesn't demand instant results like so many of the posters on the board are expecting?

I am also amused when I see all of these comments about novice or Jr. teams and how well they compare to Sr. teams. There have been so many discussions in the past about how these teams were going to make big splashes upon entering and competing in Sr. ranks and rarely if ever does this pan out. Sr. competition is entirely different. Look at what has happened to Roth/McPherson and even Vice/Ibarra. I remember all the talk about how they were going to be top 5 material this year. Well, it didn't happen. Aslo, everybody was pushing Hinzmann and Hartsell who are also very new together. So many expected them to make the World team. Come on folks, these expectations and the pressure that it puts on the teams is unfair to them. Let them do their thing and work up the ladder. I like the idea of watching these teams progress and move up. Why do you have to be instantly #1 or you are labled no good at all? Sort of silly isn't it?

Concerning Katie and Garrett I think they are doing fine. I wish I could win a National Silver medal at something!! They do need improvement but this team has potential. And they have the coaching staff that will help them get there! They have accomplished a lot in two seasons ( Remember Katie had to learn everything about pairs in that time- and still they have a record of two top five finishes!!) and I expect that they will be even better next season. I remember reading an article where their coach said that his focus was in the future. This is the right attitude and will result in the team staying together and improving.

I must also say that I agree with the poster who thinks that Adrian's comments have been overerly negative. It seems as if he has his favorites and he doesn't like the fact that O/L surged ahead of them. Nothing wrong with having favorites but give credit where it is due. I for one like O/L as well as I/B, S/J, D&H, S&D and all the others. I enjoy watching them all. I thought that this years competition was interesting and expect that next year it will even get better. I predict that the top 5 next year will include ( Boy am I going out on a limb) S&D, O/L, I/B, S&J and D&H. At this point the only thing I can say for the order is that I think S&D will have a hard time fighting off O/L and I/B for the top spot.

[Louis]

I'll be getting a tape of the official video eventually, and I promise to post a retraction if I'm wrong. But I'm 99.99% certain D/H did a triple twist in the free. They practiced it successfully all week and opened the free with it. It was the first time they did it in competition.

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by Scott

Wasn't Garrett saying that The Russians have a different approach that doesn't demand instant results like so many of the posters on the board are expecting?

No one is looking for instant results - that's not the point - people are pointing out weaknesses and strengths. There are certain qualities that when shown early enough is an indicator of things to come - it may or may not happen, but some of us look for those qualities.

Why do you have to be instantly #1 or you are labled no good at all? Sort of silly isn't it?

Yes it is - no one is every instantly number 1.

I must also say that I agree with the poster who thinks that Adrian's comments have been overerly negative. It seems as if he has his favorites and he doesn't like the fact that O/L surged ahead of them. Nothing wrong with having favorites but give credit where it is due.

I can say for certain that certain people here on this topic have a much more vested interest in O/L than I do in any of the pairs teams. ;)

I do give credit to them for their SBS jumps and twists, but like I said, I can't give credit when the stuff isn't up to snuff yet. And yes I'm hard on pairs - call me old school, but pairs show pairing and unison potential is numero uno to me. And that's not something that really can come with time - you can get very good like over time Shen/Zhao but will never truly have it like Gordeeva/Grinkov.

[Trillian]

Originally posted by adrianchew
[quote]And that's not something that really can come with time - you can get very good like over time Shen/Zhao but will never truly have it like Gordeeva/Grinkov.

Shen & Zhao are world champions and Olympic medalists--I'm guessing the USFSA wouldn't be disappointed if one of these up-and-coming pairs were to follow that example, and I doubt the skaters would be disappointed either.

Gordeeva & Grinkov didn't have the unison and precision they did because of some kind of magic--they had it because they were a well-matched team training very long hours at a very young age. The kind of training system that produced them simply doesn't exist anymore, so if you're looking for that kind of technical precision from a young pair I'm afraid you're going to be waiting a very long time.

For the record, I'd be very surprised if any of these up-and-coming U.S. teams reaches the Shen & Zhao level, let alone the Gordeeva & Grinkov level. And I don't think any of us are suggesting that they will. I don't understand why some people seem to think that if a skater doesn't do absolutely everything well, we shouldn't appreciate them for the things they do well.

[haribobo]

Very good point about the novice and junior pairs. Too frequently we fall in love with those up and comers and then they can't transition to the senior level and split, or sometimes something tragic happens AKA William Sears. :( It's great to be excited about good skating wherever it is at, and the comparisons of O/L to the younger pairs I do think are valid since we should always point out what makes a team superior, but I am extremely hesitant to say that, for instance, Uhlig/Loomis are a team that O/L need to watch out for. Show me those SBS triples and throws and unison in a few years after the growth spurt and teen rebellion/traumatic age, then I will take them more seriously. For now, they remain a young and strong novice team who should be proud of their accomplishments and work toward setting individual goals which are appropriate for their age and level.

Well in response to Scott's predictions for the coming year, even though it is VERY early, I have a sense that Don/Hunt will be in that mix for the podium and very possibly the top step. What will be key is to see what each team does over the summer and especially how well prepared they are for the GP. I imagine our GP team will be D/Hunt, S/Joeright, O/Lucash, and I/Baldwin, and S/Dulebohn if they continue (I kinda think they are going to take their national title and run away, since they don't seem to be rising up the world rankings at all). If one team can boast particularly impressive results and performances on the GP (unlike this season), that could bode very well for their chances at Nationals-- if they lay down a strong performance there, it is more likely to be rewarded with a strong competitive season behind it. All I can say is that Orscher/Lucash and Inoue/Baldwin are going to have to work VERY hard to improve, because I actually think Don/Hunt are a better pair at this point. D/H cannot slack off either of course, but there have been no signs of that yet-- I heard they train very hard and long hours. And S/J who I love so dearly, will need to be very tough in landing their jumps and if so, they can do extremely well internationally. How wonderful it would be to see all of these pairs at their best next season, of course we always have to worry about injuries, illnesses, and splits. Best wishes to all our US pairs! I see A LOT of potential, which year after year evaporates into thin air, but there is always the chance that next year will be different.

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by Trillian

I don't understand why some people seem to think that if a skater doesn't do absolutely everything well, we shouldn't appreciate them for the things they do well.

Appreciate those areas is not the problem, but estimating that the level of improvements in presentation in a year (as Scott mentions in one of his posts) is perhaps getting a little too far ahead. It can happen, and I'd love to see it happen, but right now I don't see it happening.

I get concerned anytime I see people going gaga over any pairs who have SBS jumps and hard twists, but are lacking in all the other basic pairs skills. I say it whenever people talk about Pang/Tong, etc... not just O/L. ;)

And it seems I must have rubbed on something sore - given some are suggesting I'm being overly negative and so on. I'm not - just being totally realistic - and calling it as it is.

And a tech team can get really good - I'm actually impressed enough by Totiamina/Marinin this season, that I'd have to definitely prefer them over Shen/Zhao (the way Chinese pairs teams have been taught to do throw jumps is so flawed).

[Scott]

[ you can get very good like over time Shen/Zhao but will never truly have it like Gordeeva/Grinkov. [/B][/QUOTE]

Very true.

[Scott]

Adrian, do you predict that T/M will beat S/Z for the world championship title? That would be very interesting to say the least.

[adrianchew]

Scott - T/M coming in 1st at Worlds? I think so. ;)

I predict S/Z will be solidly 2nd, unless they do mess up. Obertas/Sokolov though are the pairs that I'm really interested in watching for at Worlds though.

[legjumper]

Originally posted by adrianchew
And a tech team can get really good - I'm actually impressed enough by Totiamina/Marinin this season, that I'd have to definitely prefer them over Shen/Zhao (the way Chinese pairs teams have been taught to do throw jumps is so flawed). See, it's statements like this that make the "acknowledgment" of qualities of other teams sound like the equivalent of getting your teeth drilled with no novocaine. "Actually impressed enough"--Begrudging much? 8-)

Addressing various issues other posters raised:

Trillian said that B&S and S&P had advantages early on since they were all very experienced pairs skaters--very true. Two Olympians (Berezhnaya and Sale), former junior world champion who had been to Euros (Sikharulidze), and experienced senior-level competitor (Pelletier) all made for a much higher starting level than total newbies. With O&L, Garrett had junior pairs experience, and Katie had zero pairs training. It makes a huge difference on where the pair can start from.

haribobo mentioned young teams who can't make the transition to senior--another thing ITA on. Junior talent is only talent, not a cold indicator of senior success. People outgrow each other, get injured, can't get the jumps, want to go to college....and so they split.

Re: Obertas & Sokolov: I wasn't overly impressed by them when I first saw them at Skate America 2001. Beautiful basic skating, but they have a few technical issues to deal with, just like all the other pairs.

Re: Gordeeva & Grinkov: I don't think of them as much as a model of unison as a model of technique. B&S and S&P, to me, have more innate unison, where each skater is an extension of the other. G&G's unison seemed more the result of "working together" (as opposed to differences in technique/timing causing skaters to "work apart"). LOL, I suppose all the G&G lovers will flood the thread now to prove to me that I couldn't be more wrong.... ;)

As for next year in U.S. pairs:

Like many, I was completely taken by Don/Hunt at Nationals. I've been waiting the past few years for Jon Hunt to get the right partner, and all signs seem to point to Jenny being the one. (I'll need to see a tape of their LP to make a more definite statement, hee. :)) But they still have skills to work on (like death spirals and throw technique--it looked weird to me on ESPN), so as of February 2003, I'm hesitant to predict greatness in Atlanta. However, they'll definitely be in the mix. Will all of these teams (D&H, O&L, S&J, I&B) be at Indy this summer? 'Cause, like, that would be cool. ;)

And, finally, thanks to everyone for making this the most fun thread I've participated in here in a LONG time. :D Who knew a discussion about American pairs could be this fun?....

[Aaron W]

Originally posted by legjumper
Will all of these teams (D&H, O&L, S&J, I&B) be at Indy this summer? 'Cause, like, that would be cool. ;)

I certainly hope so. What an awesome weekend in August I'll have if they all show up. :)

-Aaron (who's a big fan of Don & Hunt) :)

[skaterdujour]

One team that I wish would come back and could still do some serious damage today:

Yamaguchi and Galindo

They were actually the only US pairs team I ever got excited about in the last 10-15 years until K/P showed up. And they were mirror skaters too!

It is extremely rare now that you see a top ranked senior level lady doing pairs also. It happens in the lower levels though. With so many talented senior ladies who have got the technical elements but just can't seem to break through the clogged up ranks, pairs may be something they want to consider. There are also some junior ladies with excellent basics who can't seem to get beyond the triple toe that may want to consider trying pairs. Same with the boys.

[michele]

Originally posted by adrianchew

I predict S/Z will be solidly 2nd, unless they do mess up. Obertas/Sokolov though are the pairs that I'm really interested in watching for at Worlds though.

Eh, I still think S&Z are the ones who have the championship unless they make a mistake (which is certainly possible). T&M need more stamina to push all the way through to the end of the LP, and IMO they have a better SP. Guess we'll see who turns out right. :) I do like O&S quite a lot and hope they improve from Euros.

[memememe76]

One team that I wish would come back and could still do some serious damage today:

Yamaguchi and Galindo

I doubt it. Galindo has said that he would have immense trouble with the lifts and throws.

[Trillian]

Originally posted by skaterdujour
One team that I wish would come back and could still do some serious damage today:

Yamaguchi and Galindo

Eh. To me, that team's a classic example of why people shouldn't predict any pairs team to be the next big thing. Because of their singles skills and the fact that they were the first Americans to win the world junior title, I'm sure a lot of people predicted big things for them. And as we know, it just didn't happen.

In my personal experience, I can think of exactly three pairs skaters I got attached to the first time I saw them: one team and one individual. The team was Stephanie Stiegler & John Zimmerman; I thought they looked like future world champions. Of course we know how that turned out. Likewise, I thought Paul Binnebose had the potential to be the best American male pairs skater ever (actually, I still do think he had that potential), and again, that wasn't meant to be.

There are way too many variables in pairs skating and the truly great performers are more rare than they are in other disciplines, which makes it outright silly to assume that any pair--Orscher & Lucash, Don & Hunt, whoever--will ever fall into that category. Maybe it will happen and that will be great, but I can't see how anyone who's been following the sport for any length of time would actually get their hearts set on it. After a certain point you've got to realize that if a skater or team is just able to simply keep going, keep improving, and become the best possible skater they can be, it's a much more realistic goal than trying to live up to an image of perfection set by somebody else.