How does the US fix the shambles that are pairs and dance?

[Mel On Ice]

Another Nationals, another crop of promising pairings splitting for one reason or another. I thought I was heartbroken when Silverstein and Pekarek broke up, I'm equally devastated by the Kalvasevich and Parchem "divorce".

I was emailing with a friend and asked her, since she trains at a big rink with junior and senior-level dancers and pairs what she thought the USFSA could do to keep talented kids together. Its so obvious from the success of the Russian pairs that stay together, succeed together. The evidence is there even within our own system, if you look at long-standing pairings like Jojo Starbuck and Ken Shelley, Babilonia and Gardner, Meno and Sand. So I ask you this:

a.) why do you think these pairs/dance teams split up?

b.) what can the USFSA do to encourage teams to stay together?

c.) what can they do to encourage more boys/men to get involved in the sport?

my uneducated opinions/theories:

a.)
- the Europeans have such a stronghold on these events, couples see little reason to stay together only to barely crack top 10 at Worlds

- the individualist theory of American attitude towards the sport

- Meeting skating goals other than competing internationally. I think of the many girls at my rink who are testing up through their international dances just to complete them. How many pairs/dance couples get together just for the sake of "making it" to Nationals, compete, then, having met their goal, break up?

- College

b.)
- learn a few of the lessons from the Russians and groom pairs from a young age. Introduce pairs/dance/couples skating in the learn-to-skate program.

- can they offer incentives, like national sponsorship for promising couples?

- publicity for couples. How many posters, advertisements, etc. focus only on the ladies? Chances are when you see promotion for a fs event, you see Michelle, Sasha, Sarah. Quit treating couples like the stepchild of skating in the US.

c.)
- survey the past men's champions and see why they got involved in the sport and market the heck out of those reasons. Two golden ages for men's skating in US, the Dick Button era and the Scott Hamilton era.

- again, publicity for the men in skating. Throw Weiss and Goebel on a poster or two. Appeal to the "manly" aspects of the sport, like the jumps, the power, and the girls in short skirts.

- ????????????


I'd love to read some opinions, suggestions from armchair fans and people in the know alike.

[IgglesII]

What can the USFSA do?

Start tossing more $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ into pairs and dance.

Don't wait until they're in the team envelope to dole out the training money. If they're willing to sign a paper committing to pairs or dance for, say, two or three years (with the same partner), open up the wallet and help them with the cost.

[Spider68]

Unfortunately, no amount of effort is going to change the number or quality of boys in figure skating (or ballet). Those that really want to will do it despite the social stigma attached. The ones that are interested but can't/won't put up with the teasing will never pursue it. My son is a great example: He can do jumps and rotations on the floor (triples, albeit sloppy) and he goofs around doing figure skating moves in his hockey skates. But mention "trying" on a pair and seeing what he could really do, and the answer is "NO. Skating is for [fill in whatever]". This mentality was strongly imbedded in his mind by hockey coaches (and, may I add, reinforced by the rudeness and disdain shown by some figure skaters in our area towards hockey players).

[fluorescein]

The lack of boys in the sport is a vicious circle. I think there are quite a few boys who would be braver about the social stigma if they had access to skaters who had a more conventionally masculine style. For example, my son (who plays hockey) and two of his friends (who play soccer, but spend a lot of time rollerblading) saw an international level ice dancer at a public skating session. You can imagine how impressive this guy was flying around the rink. In street clothes he looked as masculine as any of the guys in hockey skates and about 10X as cool. If he was there on a regular basis (say, as a guard), my son and many other pre-pubescent boys would surely find a way to strike up a conversation with him, ask where he learned to skate like that, find out that real men can wear figure skates.:) But the handful of studs in figure skates at our rink are pretty much only visible to boys who decide on their own to take freestyle or dance lessons.

[jp1andOnly]

There is an increase in boys..at least in Canada..compared to when I was growing up. My brother almost quit, but once he won a few things he became a bit more proud to be a skater. He did try pairs at one point and hated it. I think you have to have a certain "personality" for pairs or dance. When he got older he would tell his friends..me and 15 other beautiful girls...how much better can it be? I will agree, there needs to be role models to push the boys. No offense to the girls, but boys begin to outjump them and are a lot faster than them. They need that competitive edge. Not to say the girls don't make them competitive, its jsut that the guys sorta compete together in a fun way. Showing off and all that sorta stuff. When you get a higher level boy/man on the ice, the other boys will try and keep up.

[Charis]

I think we first need to fix the shambles that is international judging. :roll: Why would any of these kids be willing to devote such long hours to training when they know they're going to get screwed, pardon my french. :x

When was the last time an American pair stood on the podium? I&D should have won bronze in 98 but they were screwed by everyone's darlings, B&S. You all are a bunch of hypocrites to pretend you even care about the status of American pairs skating. :x

[hippiechick]

I think the question should be 'is the usfsa interested in fixing the shambles' rather than how can they fix it.

[Pupiczech]

Charis I agree with your french.

This is such an abusive sport for these kids. I've seen my friends skate a wonderful, clean program and get such horrible marks and low placements and they have to smile through it all. It is really heartbreaking.

I also think I/Z got screwed last year at the Olympics.

I don't think pairs is in shambles, just in the building stage. There are some great new teams that have not been together long, like Don/Hunt and Hinzmann/Hartsell. Give them this next year and watch out. I also like Inoue/Baldwin.

[Miezekatze]

I also think I/Z got screwed last year at the Olympics.



Well they got quite a gift at Worlds last year though, making numerous mistakes, but placing in front of a practically clean Petrova & Tikhonov and winning a bronze medal.

It's amazing how people can always list all the events when poor teams got screwed, but on the other hand miraculously forget the events where those teams got treated VERY generously by the judges :roll:

And I strongly disagree with there being a European stronghold in pairs. At Europeans this year there were only 13 pairs team competing and only the Top 6 of them are on a level good enough to maybe make it into the Top 10 at Worlds.

If you look at the Top 10 from last years Worlds (see end of this post), there are 3 European teams, 3 Chinese, 2 American and 2 Canadian. Looks pretty balanced to me...

1 Xue SHEN / Hongbo ZHAO CHN 1.5 1 1
2 Tatiana TOTMIANINA / Maxim MARININ RUS 3.0 2 2
3 Kyoko INA / John ZIMMERMAN USA 4.5 3 3
4 Maria PETROVA / Alexei TIKHONOV RUS 6.0 4 4
5 Qing PANG / Jian TONG CHN 7.5 5 5
6 Dorota ZAGORSKA / Mariusz SIUDEK POL 9.0 6 6
7 Tiffany SCOTT / Philip DULEBOHN USA 10.5 7 7
8 Jacinthe LARIVIERE / Lenny FAUSTINO CAN 12.0 8 8
9 Dan ZHANG / Hao ZHANG CHN 14.0 10 9
10 Anabelle LANGLOIS / Patrice ARCHETTO CAN 15.5 11 10

[loveskating]

First, I think American pairs skaters should do what Ina and Zimmerman did, go to a great Russian pairs coach. Ina was and they were so much better after a few years it was amazing...

Second, the skating establishment should be more open to talented kids who are COMPLICATED...having the goods is the bottom line, and relieving the administrators of complexities is for a fraternity or soriority, not a figure skating federation.

Third, there ought to be a special fund set up for talented, complicated kids whose parents cannot afford skating at the lower levels...asking people to sacrifice is one thing, asking people to sink into bankruptcy and poverty on a long shot is stupid. Kids from poor families might be complicated, but they will stay in, as they have fewer options for "a ticket to ride".

[loveskating]

Originally posted by Charis
...I&D should have won bronze in 98 but they were screwed by everyone's darlings, B&S. You all are a bunch of hypocrites to pretend you even care about the status of American pairs skating. :x

Sure, if you think the penalty for a fall on a DISMOUNT from a lift is a huge deduction....it isn't. Believe me, if B&S had fallen on the lift itself, there would probably have been blood all over that ice. IMHO, the quality of the pairs skating of B&S as compared to I&D or anyone else except Sale & Peltier was and is HUGE.

As Ina and Zimmerman proved, Americans can learn the techniques of Russian pairs skating...no reason not to do so, either...there is nothing "inherently" nationalistic about ANY form other than its origin...people all over the world play jazz, and very well too.

[Leela]

Yes, maybe some pairs teams who are highly motivated to be competitive on an international level might seek to work with a Russian coach. But then be ready for the whiners who are all "Oh no, there ought to be a law against Russian coaches----they are too strict, too demanding, require you to make choices about school and social life, make you conscious of your weight, make you train like you mean to win and expect you to win, make you sick." (those whiners make me sick) :roll:

[RoaringSkates]

Here's an interview with Garrett Lukash on this very topic. He mentions that the US teams right now are very young, and he feels that they need more time to develop.

http://www.ctnow.com/sports/hc-skatefeat0204.artfeb04,0,4731282.story?

[hoptoad]

Originally posted by Mel On Ice
Another Nationals, another crop of promising pairings splitting for one reason or another. I thought I was heartbroken when Silverstein and Pekarek broke up, I'm equally devastated by the Kalvasevich and Parchem "divorce".
.....
- learn a few of the lessons from the Russians and groom pairs from a young age. Introduce pairs/dance/couples skating in the learn-to-skate program.


I disagree that the K/P break-up was a set-back for US pairs skating. It is a disappointment, for sure, that they never lived up to their potential. But since it doesn't seem likely that Stephanie will ever be able to land triple jumps consistently, they won't be able to advance the state of US pairs skating by staying together. (Of course, they could have lots of perfectly good reasons to continue to skate together anyway, and I certainly wouldn't want to see the USFSA aggressively trying to break up pairs.) Strictly from the standpoint of advancing US pairs, though, I'd rather see Aaron give it a try with a different partner.

I think your learn-to-skate idea is a fantastic one--and so obvious I can't believe they aren't doing it already. Of course there would be lots of difficulties, but just having the program in place would send a message that pairs is an option to consider. More kids would actually see people practicing the skills and could try it in a low threat environment.

Some difficulties might be the disparity in the size/height/age/skill level of skaters in a given group, as well as a probable imbalance in the numbers of males to females. Anyone want to take a stab at writing test elements to learned in such a program? Many of the skills, such as partner awareness, stroking and spinning in unison, field moves, etc, could be practiced by skaters who are not well matched enough to try throw jumps or lifts. And, of course, learning to precisely control the speed of your spins is completely gender neutral.

In general, I'm not crazy about schemes to sell skating to boys by promoting the "lots of girls in short skirts" angle. It is a problem that many boys don't try or continue to skate because of skating's non-macho image, but I think it would be better to present a wider variety of images than to relentlessly push the macho one. However, for boys for whom skating with girls would be an selling point, the learn-to-skate program might provide an additional attraction.

[Charis]

Originally posted by loveskating
First, I think American pairs skaters should do what Ina and Zimmerman did, go to a great Russian pairs coach. Ina was and they were so much better after a few years it was amazing...

Puh-leeze. :roll: Moskvina's choreography for I&Z was u-g-l-y. Besti squats? :?? She was coaching B&S at the SAME TIME!

Do you think Sasha and Michelle would have the same coach and expect to be treated equally? Give me a break.....

And for those of you splitting hairs, trying to justify B&S silver in Nagano, don't bother. As we all know you can't win the competition in the SP but you can lose it (unless you're a Russian pair team). ;)

[icenut84]

Can I just say, I agree 100% with Miezekatze.

I personally thought Ina & Zimmerman should have been 4th at the Olympics instead of 5th, but I didn't see Worlds and a lot of people have said that they were treated very generously with the bronze medal over Petrova & Tikhonov. It goes both ways. It isn't always biased to the Russians you know. :roll: And as for B&S in 98, I rewatched the LPs recently, as I had originally thought Wotzel & Steuer should have had silver, but on second (and more recent, and more enlightened about skating) viewing, I don't think so. B&S had a quality, smoothness, artistry etc that Wotzel and Steuer (who weren't totally clean either IIRC) didn't have. I thought the results were right.

And to get back on topic, I think the learn-to-skate stuff for pairs and dance is a great idea. The option should be made more readily available if it isn't now.

[Charis]

Originally posted by icenut84
And as for B&S in 98, I rewatched the LPs recently...

Why don't you go back and watch the SPs?

btw, "smoothness" and "artistry" are not valid criteria. ;)

What fans want and skaters deserve is fair judging ALL the time. Let the best person win. American/Canadian pairs ALWAYS get screwed at the Olympics ( the big cahuna of competitions the most corrupt.

[tulip]

Originally posted by Pupiczech
Charis I agree with your french.

This is such an abusive sport for these kids. I've seen my friends skate a wonderful, clean program and get such horrible marks and low placements and they have to smile through it all. It is really heartbreaking.



I assume your friends are the Hartsells. You know, a lot of time skaters do skate clean wonderful programs and don't get the marks. You know why? Because of basic skating and quality of elements. A small throw jump, little speed, weak spiral sequences, uncomplicated lifts, etc. are not going to pull in high marks.

[Charis]

Originally posted by tulip
...weak spiral sequences, uncomplicated lifts, etc. are not going to pull in high marks.

ahm, you mean like two basic hand lifts and a poor death spiral. ;) The topic is strengthening the US pairs program and the obvious answer is "what's the point?"

[Ellyn]

Originally posted by Charis
[B]Why don't you go back and watch the SPs?

Yeah, so probably B&S should have been 4th instead of 3rd in the SP. So what, they'd still be in position to medal.

btw, "smoothness" and "artistry" are not valid criteria. ;)

Sure they are. Well, "artistry" is too vague a term to be meaningful, but if equate it with presentation criteria such as "carriage and style" (including extension and body line) and "unison," those are certainly important and definitely valid criteria that are in the rules. Not to mention utilization of the ice surface, speed in the first mark and variation of speed in the second, and other criteria where B&S might not have had as much of an advantage as in those areas.

As for smoothness -- one of the most important aspects of the first mark is the quality of the basic skating between the elements. Even in the short program it's not all about the elements -- speed counts, and so does edge quality, which could be defined further as including both depth of edge and smoothness of stroking. All those factors are VALID parts of the base mark, and then any necessary deductions are taken from there.

[chattykathy]

We've lost another one!

http://www.usfsa.org/news/2002-03/juniorworlds-preview.htm

News update (Feb. 5) — Pairs Kristen Roth and Michael McPherson have been added to the World Junior Team lineup. Roth and McPherson replace Tiffany Vise and Larry Ibarra, who withdrew after ending their partnership this week.

Which one of this pair was the counter jumper, I can't seem to remember?

Didnt Tiffany originally skate pairs with Ryan Bradley? Not a bad option for either of them to skate together again.

[vesperholly]

Originally posted by Charis
What fans want and skaters deserve is fair judging ALL the time. Let the best person win. American/Canadian pairs ALWAYS get screwed at the Olympics ( the big cahuna of competitions the most corrupt.

You followed two very logical sentences (except let the best SKATE win, not necessarily the best person, which are two entirely separate thoughts - but, I pick nits) with a very illogical non sequitur.

Exactly which American pairs have been "screwed" at the Olympics? Ina & Zimmerman skated a great LP at SLC, but I would still have had them in fourth behind Shen & Zhao. In Nagano, Meno & Sand tripped all over themselves (I still think it was that ugly dog collar on Jenni that ruined it - notice she got rid of it by Worlds and they won silver!) and deserved their placement. Ina & Dungjen had a front-loaded program that poor choreography.

As for Canadians, Sale & Pelletier got the raw end of a judging deal and came out ok, but even so a silver isn't half bad! Lariviere & Faustino made their world *debut* at SLC and got seventh. Brasseur & Eisler were a great pair but Gordeeva & Grinkov and Mishkutenok & Dmitriev were just a touch greater - B&E happened to be skating in an era with some of the legends.

My skating knowledge doesn't go much farther back than that, but I recall a surprise silver in 84 from the Carruthers and a bronze in 88 from Watson & Oppergard. Sorry, your statement just doesn't make any sense when you look at it in any sort of historical perspective.

Back on topic... I am sad for Kalesavich & Parchem but let's face it, that triple wasn't coming. I am ready for Orscher & Lucash to get some personality and connection, and for Don & Hunt to get those pair elements solid and I wouldn't be so disappointed.

Jocelyn

[Charis]

B&E were screwed many times. G&G & M&D were great skaters (you can't be a legend until you're dead or retired ;) but not always perfect in competition. There just always has to be a Russian pair at the top. T&M? HA! Anyone remember Eltsova & Bushkin? :lol:

Back on topic. Why would any male skater in the US worth his salt want to give up a chance at a singles title to skate pairs?

This topic has got me thinking - why would Russian men choose pairs over singles? Well, in the days of the Soviet Union (and to a lesser extent now), they did whatever their federation told them to do. My guess is while the Soviets built up their pairs program, they were wheeling and dealing behind the scenes to create a judging bloc which would guarantee that their pairs stayed on top (thus ensuring that their top skaters remained in the pairs program.)

[Trillian]

Originally posted by chattykathy
Didnt Tiffany originally skate pairs with Ryan Bradley? Not a bad option for either of them to skate together again.

Tiffany was the clockwise rotator, so she and Ryan would be (and were) a mirror pair. Not that I think they'd be much of a match regardless, these days. Ryan was a strong pairs skater, but it doesn't appear that he has the upper body strength to handle anything more than a very tiny (like, prepubescent) partner. He never did fill out much in that area.

Here's a suggestion on improving U.S. pairs and dance: why are we only focusing on keeping teams together, and keep in mind that there are a lot of teams that very obviously won't be successful if they stay together. People seem to have an ingrained idea that splitting is never ever a good thing, which just isn't true. In fact, I can think of a few teams in the U.S. who have stayed together too long. K&P, IMO, recognized when a split was a good idea and took the intelligent step.

[Ellyn]

Originally posted by Charis
Back on topic. Why would any male skater in the US worth his salt want to give up a chance at a singles title to skate pairs?

Good skater but can't master triple axels or quads? As we saw this year, it may be possible to win a national title without one or both, but internationally they're not going to go far without them.

(In the old days, good freestyler but bad at figures?)

This topic has got me thinking - why would Russian men choose pairs over singles? Well, in the days of the Soviet Union (and to a lesser extent now), they did whatever their federation told them to do.[/B]

Although when it came to the guys who were better at figures than freestyle (e.g., Volkov) or too small for pairs (e.g., Fadeev), then the federation would undoubtedly steer them toward singles rather than pairs.
The Soviet Union did pretty well in the men's singles area too. Can't forget Petrenko either.

So maybe they just had a relatively deeper pool of talented male skaters in general.

The not-so-talented ones wouldn't stay in the sport, though. Whereas in the west skaters with average or below-average talent are welcome to skate as long as they or their parents want to pay for it. They won't be getting international assignments though, in most cases never even getting near Nationals in the U.S.

[Charis]

In order to attract more young men to figure skating it has to be perceived as a legitimate SPORT.

You've got a heavy theatrical influence from the Russians. I think of Urmanov's & Kulik's clown costumes, Anton's disco shirt. . .

psst, hey kid, wanna
give up your life,
be tortured and ridiculed by your classmates,
and endure hours of grueling training
so you can get screwed by bloc judging?

I think it's a hard sell.

[RobinA]

I think the "bloc judging" argument as a reason why Americans aren't interested in Pairs would have more resonance if there were an American pair that was even CLOSE to quality of the top pairs from elsewhere. While it can certainly be argued that this or that pair should have been fourth and not fifth at any given competition, at this point our pairs just aren't challenging the Russians or Chinese.

[Charis]

You're missing the point. Why would an American pair want to put in all the work it takes to get to the top? Especially after seeing what happened to S&P. Yeah, you can protest and then everyone will hate you and call you "whiners". And even though they got justice, they still were robbed of their special moment on that night. That is what skaters dream of and what motivates them through the long, tedious hours of practice.

[Annes]

Lariviere and Faustino were tenth at the Olympics. They were eighth at worlds.

[terisalyn]

Getting out of the "who got robbed" trend...

I think part of the solution is getting more boys interested in skating, but also I think we Americans are more likely to solve personal conflict within a dance or pairs couple by finding new partners. If you look at the old Soviet system, if Skater A was assigned to skate with Skater B, based on the coaches' evaluations of their skills, body lines, etc., and A didn't get along with B particularly well, I bet they were told, "That doesn't matter. You work out your personality conflicts well enough to work with this person, you're not marrying him/her." They were trained to put the skating first, to put all personal feelings on a back burner, and also according to all reports I've heard, were expected to train a lot harder than we want our kids to train.

Edited to add: Yeah, yeah, I know the old Soviet system is gone, but the mentality is still there...

[icenut84]

Originally posted by Charis
B&E were screwed many times. G&G & M&D were great skaters (you can't be a legend until you're dead or retired ;) but not always perfect in competition. There just always has to be a Russian pair at the top. T&M? HA! Anyone remember Eltsova & Bushkin? :lol:

You can't be a legend until you're dead or retired? I think a few zillion Michelle Kwan fans, for one thing, would have something to say about that.

G&G and M&D weren't always perfect in competition? Who is? Every skater made/makes mistakes, big ones, small ones, whatever. Sometimes skaters skate perfectly but it isn't that common. By the pairs you chose, I assume you're talking about the 94 Olympics when they went 1-2-3? B&E weren't perfect. Neither were G&G. M&D skated cleanly. If I had been judging I probably would have had it M&D-G&G-B&E in that order. A Russian pair at the top, so what? They were the best on the night IMO and had the best content, and the best on the night with the best content should win, whatever their nationality is. That's just my opinion anyway.

As for T&M, they are on top because they have world class technical abilities. And I remember Eltsova & BUSHKOV. If you're gonna insult someone at least get their name right.

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by icenut84

You can't be a legend until you're dead or retired? I think a few zillion Michelle Kwan fans, for one thing, would have something to say about that.

Some fans might say she's a legend - yet sports writers have labelled her a choker. Both are extremes, IMO.

[arena_gal]

The US needs to encourage boys in skating and to create the "boys club" of skating that exists in Canada. No kidding, I think every male skater in Canada knows every other male skater, they'll hang out together and then try to out jump each other in competition. Does that attitude exist in the US? The bigger the pool of male skaters, the more potential for pairs and dance. I don't know how many times I've seen boy skaters asked if they have a partner yet, and they're 8 years old! They don't go into the sport to ice dance, they get into skating to JUMP, but it all goes from there.

Secondly, (and this one goes for Skate Canada too), the associations need to provide funding to be able to have potential pairs and dance partners match up from all over the country at novice levels. Skating as a team is a money sucking activity that doesn't have the same potential endorsement payoff that singles do (in the USA). If the association wants dance pairs, then fund them at a much earlier level.

[quark]

Originally posted by arena_gal
Skating as a team is a money sucking activity that doesn't have the same potential endorsement payoff that singles do (in the USA). If the association wants dance pairs, then fund them at a much earlier level. Can someone give me a reason why pairs and dance receive the same cash winnings at a competition as singles skaters, even though there are two people involved? The only expenses that pairs and dance partners share are coaching and ice time. Otherwise, travel, lodging, food, costumes, skates, and blades are all purchased individually. That sure doesn't help teams survive the financial costs of skating. Is this also true with USFSA money for Team USA rankings?

[what?meworry?]

i think they actually recieve more than the singles, but not double. the investment from usfsa, however, should not be universally applied.

need should be a factor and every boy skater the usfsa deems as promising could be asked to apply for support (csap is way too regulated by placement and level, so i mean beyond this) and additional funding and/or help in soliciting funding, be made available. i don't mean to single out boys, there are some girls, like matthews and lang who are/were in need of financial help.