Igor Shpilband

[TanithandBenFan]

I've heard over the years that he is a very demanding coach, and I've heard people say that he can do damage to a young skater's psyche (particularly those of young ladies). What is he really like as a coach? Is he concerned for the off-ice well-being of his students? It seems like Tanith and Ben have a good relationship with him. Is this truly the case? Was he part of the reason that Jamie and Justin split?

[quark]

Originally posted by TanithandBenFan
I've heard over the years that he is a very demanding coach, and I've heard people say that he can do damage to a young skater's psyche (particularly those of young ladies). What is he really like as a coach? Is he concerned for the off-ice well-being of his students? It seems like Tanith and Ben have a good relationship with him. Is this truly the case? Was he part of the reason that Jamie and Justin split? No, No, and Yes.8-)

[leepn]

He treats his skaters the same as any other Russian coach. Some can handle it and others can't

[Wind]

Originally posted by leepn
He treats his skaters the same as any other Russian coach. Some can handle it and others can't

Interesting to hear opinions regarding Igor. Does anyone have any impressions or opinions of Natalia Dubova as a coach?

[TanithandBenFan]

So, is he not someone I'd want to recommend to a young ice dancer then? I guess I just see Belbin and Agosto's success and think he must be doing something right. They don't seem miserable. Are they just so happy with each other as partners that they just suck it up when it comes to dealing with Igor?

[vesperholly]

From what I can see of Belbin/Agosto, they view skating as a job, and if their boss happens to be hard on them in demanding their excellence, so be it. Perhaps they have come to understand that in order to improve and win medals and titles, they need his expertise regardless of if he's a jerk. Some skaters thrive under tough coaches. Besides, Tanith isn't exactly a fragile flower, and Ben seems lighthearted enough to not let criticism get to him.

Of course, all of this is pure speculation based on observation.

Jocelyn

[butterfly]

Tanith is tough and ambitous but behind the smile you see when she takes the ice is real suffering. Igor makes winners but at what price? The tough girls are not necessarily the girls that come out winners, but those that don't become bulimic and lose their sense of self under the Igor/Morina method. Tanith is still in this sport, most likely, because of Ben who is such a supportive person. I can't imagine the success Igor would have if he bred loyalty and admiration from his skaters; he is a genius.

[TanithandBenFan]

I was hoping that Marina Zueva would be a contrast to Igor and would be more of a positive influence on Tanith. Is she just like him? Thank God for Ben's attitude and personality. I hope that he and Tanith can continue to support each other and succeed despite any crap they may have to deal with behind the scenes.

[tulip]

Originally posted by Wind
Interesting to hear opinions regarding Igor. Does anyone have any impressions or opinions of Natalia Dubova as a coach?

Wind, I've heard she is the "nicest" of the Russian dance divas (Linichuk, Dubova, Tarasova). I've heard her described as a "lady" and not with the real tough attitude of other Russian coaches. She's great at teaching the CDs and improving edge quality but she lacks in the choreography area that's why you usually see her students having an outside choreographer do their programs.

[tulip]

Originally posted by butterfly
Tanith is tough and ambitous but behind the smile you see when she takes the ice is real suffering. Igor makes winners but at what price? The tough girls are not necessarily the girls that come out winners, but those that don't become bulimic and lose their sense of self under the Igor/Morina method. Tanith is still in this sport, most likely, because of Ben who is such a supportive person. I can't imagine the success Igor would have if he bred loyalty and admiration from his skaters; he is a genius.

I've heard that Igor is really tough on his girls, particularly when it has to do with weight issues. Remember the first year that Wing & Lowe were with Shpilband? Wing looked like she dropped a 15 pounds.

I've also noticed that Tanith has lost a huge amount of weight in the last year. Hopefully she's ok.

[hoptoad]

If life with Igor is half as bad as people say, I hope Tanith and Ben can keep a united front and be strong enough to leave him well before things get intolerable. Igor may be good, but he's not the only coach in the world and I would think that Tanith and Ben have enough proven potential to be able to find a good coaching situation somewhere. Maybe TT would take them in part to spite Morosov.

[Anjelica]

I agree with quark on this one; no, no and yes. Keep in mind that appearances can be deceiving.

[what?meworry?]

Originally posted by Anjelica
I agree with quark on this one; no, no and yes. Keep in mind that appearances can be deceiving.

me too. no, no, yes.

but i'm gonna stick my neck out yet again and say what i've posted elsewhere: i think that the teams going to igor now as adults can do really well. the girls are formed, for better or worse as the case may be, and not in the process of developing their identity and self-esteem.

i am not confident of the atmosphere for the preteen or young teen, or even young adult female skater, however. historically none of the girls have survived, except tanith. perhaps it's too much too soon. i don't know.

tanith, fyi, had her "acting out" issues around the boston nationals and previous and following internationals. thanks to the strength of her parents (and ben's a nice guy, too) she survived what others may have not.

in the old ussr, if you couldn't take it, there were plenty others willing to take your place (if you are a girl). it's not the case here. we have so very few male dancers, and our free society doesn't condone treating girls as disposables.

this is a developental process, it's important to have coaches who can manage the development of skaters in an age-appropriate manner. meaning that the younger skaters, here at least, need a kinder, more positive and encouraging training environment. gradually, as the stakes increase, so does the intensity of training. this usually requires a series of coaches.

uh-oh, i think i'm in deep trouble. so be it.

[love2sk8]

Originally posted by TanithandBenFan
I was hoping that Marina Zueva would be a contrast to Igor and would be more of a positive influence on Tanith. Is she just like him?

Marina is not a contrast to Igor...she is just as tough, and demanding as any Russian caoch. But she has moments where she's super nice and funny, even laid-back.

[butterfly]

Originally posted by love2sk8
Marina is not a contrast to Igor...she is just as tough, and demanding as any Russian caoch. But she has moments where she's super nice and funny, even laid-back. This is true, and Igor also has his charming moments. What they show to the public, parents or judges is totally different to what they put their students through.

[love2sk8]

It's like a completely different atmosphere when its just you and her...she's different than she would be if there were people around, at a competition, for example. She pushes her students so hard...and doesnt take no for an answer. It's either done her way, or you can get off the ice, and never come back.

[Leela]

TanithandBenFan----I would answer YES, Igor (and Marina) do care about the well-being of their students on and off the ice. They do realize that these young people have lives outside of skating, but they do expect that, if they truly want to be champions, they have to be prepared to make choices that in many cases put skating first; YES, Tanith and Ben DO have a good relationship with Igor (and Marina) They are ALL part of the team. The skaters don't resent the hard work the coaches demand of them, because they see how hard they are also willing to work to help them achieve their goals. If they want to go all the way to the top in their sport (as at the world-class level in any sport) there's no other way but hard work, push yourself to keep getting stronger/better, and have a coach that's right there with you. True, neither Igor or Marina will put up very long with wimpy behavior and excuses.
With Jamie and Justin, don't want to go there, except to say that I believe Igor wanted them to keep skating. I'm sure ALL of the players played a part in this team's demise--no ONE was the cause.

[butterfly]

Originally posted by Leela
TanithandBenFan----I would answer YES, Igor (and Marina) do care about the well-being of their students on and off the ice. They do realize that these young people have lives outside of skating, but they do expect that, if they truly want to be champions, they have to be prepared to make choices that in many cases put skating first; YES, Tanith and Ben DO have a good relationship with Igor (and Marina) They are ALL part of the team. The skaters don't resent the hard work the coaches demand of them, because they see how hard they are also willing to work to help them achieve their goals. If they want to go all the way to the top in their sport (as at the world-class level in any sport) there's no other way but hard work, push yourself to keep getting stronger/better, and have a coach that's right there with you. True, neither Igor or Marina will put up very long with wimpy behavior and excuses.
With Jamie and Justin, don't want to go there, except to say that I believe Igor wanted them to keep skating. I'm sure ALL of the players played a part in this team's demise--no ONE was the cause. Wow, what planet are you from? Igor and Marina rule and Tanith and Ben follow, that IS the team concept. Ninetynine percent of skaters at DSC are tough and could challenge a football program so don't call these kids wimpy. When are we going to open our eyes to bad training and lack of concern for young people. As long as there are winners we will ignore the bad behavior and continue to watch young people become bulemic, uneducated throwaways. I would love to see the state step in and do an analysis of whether or not these kids are being educated as required by law. Certainly the USFSA doesn't care about what goes on in these unique training situations. Parents are so often afraid of Igor or Marina that they buy into this business of winners at any cost. As for Jamie and Justin, of course Igor wanted them to keep skating. They were terrific and his ticket to more fame. Of course I guess we should call Jamie "wimpy" I don't think so. I prefer to call Jamie a survivor.

[quark]

Originally posted by love2sk8
She pushes her students so hard...and doesnt take no for an answer. It's either done her way, or you can get off the ice, and never come back. Trouble is, IMO she doesn't know compulsory dances, which is why Igor's teams that were trained by Marina score relatively badly in part of dance. Even advanced teams like Tanith and Ben probably won't do as well in CD's since they no longer get correct CD training at the DSC. She really doesn't believe that compulsories are important. Yeh, tell that to our National judges. I wonder if this is another "Russian mindset" since Matthews/Zavozin also have very poor compulsories. The skaters I'm referring to have superb body and edge control, as evidenced by their OD and FS, so it can't be their inability to learn; it has to be the teaching.

Marina is a choreographer, and was never trained in physical conditioning in Russia. I wouldn't even think about letting her coach any young student in compulsories or endurance exercises.

I've also heard that she doesn't want an elite skater going to our basic public school; they should be home schooled. Otherwise, the skater is not dedicated. If the skater is a few years late in graduating from high school, so what? Where did this lack of respect for a basic education originate? In Russia? Or, is it just Marina's distorted view of the value of ice dance for the gifted young. As what?meworry? said, it appears that a "dedicated" dancer under the Russian system, who doesn't make it, is disposable. It doesn't matter whether they're prepared for any other function in life. That's not the coach's responsibility.

I question whether the DSC should be encouraging this kind of attitude, or if they should call a halt to the destruction of the young that happens at their rink. This problem didn't originate with Marina, but it also hasn't changed with her presence. I don't know of a single skater who started at the DSC as a Junior skater or younger who is still training there. The few who stayed in skating, Pekarek, Joseph, Gates, Manon, are elsewhere. Others, Klaus, Chalom, Silverstein, Butler are all out of competitive skating. If a University had athletes with a graduation, or job placement record like that, someone would suggest something was wrong.

[tulip]

Originally posted by quark


I've also heard that she doesn't want an elite skater going to our basic public school; they should be home schooled. Otherwise, the skater is not dedicated. If the skater is a few years late in graduating from high school, so what?



Are you sure about this? Because her son Fedor Andreev certainly graduated from a public school and I believe is even taking university courses now. Also, I'm pretty certain that her Canadian junior team, Karam & McGrath are not homeschooled as they go back to Ottawa from Jan-June to finish off the school year. :??

[quark]

Originally posted by tulip
Are you sure about this? Because her son Fedor Andreev certainly graduated from a public school and I believe is even taking university courses now. Also, I'm pretty certain that her Canadian junior team, Karam & McGrath are not homeschooled as they go back to Ottawa from Jan-June to finish off the school year. :?? I'll check my information! Let you know when I can. :)

[Leela]

Originally posted by butterfly
Wow, what planet are you from? Igor and Marina rule and Tanith and Ben follow, that IS the team concept. Ninetynine percent of skaters at DSC are tough and could challenge a football program so don't call these kids wimpy. When are we going to open our eyes to bad training and lack of concern for young people. As long as there are winners we will ignore the bad behavior and continue to watch young people become bulemic, uneducated throwaways. I would love to see the state step in and do an analysis of whether or not these kids are being educated as required by law. Certainly the USFSA doesn't care about what goes on in these unique training situations. Parents are so often afraid of Igor or Marina that they buy into this business of winners at any cost. As for Jamie and Justin, of course Igor wanted them to keep skating. They were terrific and his ticket to more fame. Of course I guess we should call Jamie "wimpy" I don't think so. I prefer to call Jamie a survivor.

Well, butterfly, I don't think you read my post very carefully. I was attempting to respond to the original poster's questions about the relationship of Tanith and Ben with Igor. (the last part about the breakup of Jamie and Justin, I only meant to imply that yes it was Igor, yes it was Jamie, yes it was Justin, and maybe others, too.)
True, the training program at DSC is not appropriate for everyone. I do think that most everyone who comes there to skate does improve and become a better skater. Some stay on, some don't care for it and go elsewhere (including on to coaching or to college.) No one is a prisoner. Why must it be so black and white, so either right or wrong?? It's just one option for training, one style of coaching that works for some people and not for others. Or works for some people for a while, and then they move on to someone or something else. Certainly not everyone there suffers from eating disorders or is undereducated. I can't understand why people must demonize the whole program :(

[love2sk8]

Originally posted by tulip
Are you sure about this? Because her son Fedor Andreev certainly graduated from a public school and I believe is even taking university courses now. Also, I'm pretty certain that her Canadian junior team, Karam & McGrath are not homeschooled as they go back to Ottawa from Jan-June to finish off the school year. :??

Karam & McGrath do not go to Ottawa from January to June anymore. They did last year, but not this year. Fedor finished high school taking an extra year, IIRC. Also, he took I think maybe 2? years off before going to college this year.

But Marina does not count school in as a priority...the priority is getting to the rink, and training your butt off-while listening to her precise instructions.

[Skatingsarah]

Originally posted by TanithandBenFan
So, is he not someone I'd want to recommend to a young ice dancer then? ?
I wouldnt go as far as not recommending him to younger dance teams. I mean look what he and Marina have done to young teams like Karam/Mcgrath. They improved 7 places in one year. Now those placements just dont fall from the sky its alot of work on a skaters part and maybe these coachs can bring the best of them. I personally think that a stricter coach can get more out of a skater then a laid back one. I just think if they feel the pressure they will feel comfortable in a competition scene. So maybe this coaching team could be the next russian duo like T and M. Stranger thing have happened!
Karam & McGrath do not go to Ottawa from January to June anymore. They did last year, but not this year.
Very true, they are not staying this year. I can second that..lol eh love2sk8
-Sarah

[quark]

Originally posted by quark
I'll check my information! Let you know when I can. :) I placed the emphasis incorrectly. The choice wasn't between home schooling and public schools, it was between school and skating. If the time to attend a school class needed for graduation interferes with being at the rink, the rink is more important. It doesn't matter to her if a student has to reduce the number of courses taken in high school, even if it means postponing graduation by one or more years. Obviously, an education is less important to Marina than skating. She may be Russian with this attitude, but that viewpoint is close to being against the education laws and the standards of our American society. Igor is now a citizen and should know better.

[CanAmSk8ter]

Originally posted by tulip
Wind, I've heard she is the "nicest" of the Russian dance divas (Linichuk, Dubova, Tarasova). I've heard her described as a "lady" and not with the real tough attitude of other Russian coaches. She's great at teaching the CDs and improving edge quality but she lacks in the choreography area that's why you usually see her students having an outside choreographer do their programs.

This was my impression too. I took a few lessons from Natalia last year. She's a stickler about technique, but after three lessons she made it a point to tell me how much my posture and arm placement had improved. That kind of positive feedback is something that a lot of coaches, both Russian and North American, tend to overlook after a certain point.

My impressions of Tarasova, who I've watched teach wuite a bit, is that on the ice she wants xyz and she wants it now. I've heard her raise her voice to student who have just made mistakes, although she was speaking Russian so I don't know what she was actually saying. But I've heard many skaters talk about how wonderful she is off the ice as far as making sure her skaters are eating right, doing the right kind of off-ice training, getting enough sleep, etc., and that she's very careful with skaters who are injured, making sure they don't overdo it and suggesting things they might try.

[Louis]

Originally posted by quark
If the time to attend a school class needed for graduation interferes with being at the rink, the rink is more important. It doesn't matter to her if a student has to reduce the number of courses taken in high school, even if it means postponing graduation by one or more years. Obviously, an education is less important to Marina than skating.

Actually, your conclusion should be that completing an education in a STANDARD TIMEFRAME is less important than skating. And that's fine with me. I have no idea how any elite skater manages to put in the necessary hours of training and the necessary hours required of a full-time high school student. I would much rather students proceed at a pace that they're comfortable with and actually LEARN something than to rush through a shoddy school program just to get a diploma and be done with it. Given that a number of DSC skaters have moved on to college, perhaps this approach has some merit.

Louis (who finished high school and college early, but who doesn't mind letting students go at their own pace, within reason of course)

[butterfly]

Originally posted by Leela
Well, butterfly, I don't think you read my post very carefully. I was attempting to respond to the original poster's questions about the relationship of Tanith and Ben with Igor. (the last part about the breakup of Jamie and Justin, I only meant to imply that yes it was Igor, yes it was Jamie, yes it was Justin, and maybe others, too.)
True, the training program at DSC is not appropriate for everyone. I do think that most everyone who comes there to skate does improve and become a better skater. Some stay on, some don't care for it and go elsewhere (including on to coaching or to college.) No one is a prisoner. Why must it be so black and white, so either right or wrong?? It's just one option for training, one style of coaching that works for some people and not for others. Or works for some people for a while, and then they move on to someone or something else. Certainly not everyone there suffers from eating disorders or is undereducated. I can't understand why people must demonize the whole program :( I read your message clearly and I just responded in opposition. I do not believe that the relationship with Ben and Tanith and Igor is a wholesome one. I still believe that he is all smiles at competitions and to the public, but Ben and Tanith know the boundaries of the relationship well. Work and win or else.

You are right that DSC is not a prison, but young people with much pressure on them to win and with all the money that is being invested they do get caught up in a bad culture and often their parents are exerting pressure as well. It is up to adults, parents, coaches, club directors and the USFSA to guard their welfare. Young people are vulnerable and the young women that have turned bulemic under Igor are more proof that change should happen. Igor and Marina need to go to a clinic for how to deal with athletes and the dangers of bad training techniques. That is where the USFSA could make a contribution.

As for demonizing the whole program I am not. I believe that Igor is one of the best choreographers and ice dance coaches for pure technique in the country. I'm not sure where Marina's talent is..certainly not coaching or great choreography. I can't believe they sent Liz away and settled for Marina. Marina believes that the CDs are useless and it shows in Igor's students.

This is an important issue and bringing it to the light of day is good. I am always so amazed that those young skaters protect Igor as they do. He is a mighty figure to them and unless they have good support at home they are doomed to suffer.

[butterfly]

Originally posted by Louis
Actually, your conclusion should be that completing an education in a STANDARD TIMEFRAME is less important than skating. And that's fine with me. I have no idea how any elite skater manages to put in the necessary hours of training and the necessary hours required of a full-time high school student. I would much rather students proceed at a pace that they're comfortable with and actually LEARN something than to rush through a shoddy school program just to get a diploma and be done with it. Given that a number of DSC skaters have moved on to college, perhaps this approach has some merit.

Louis (who finished high school and college early, but who doesn't mind letting students go at their own pace, within reason of course) In defense of Quark I happen to know that many skaters at DSC are educated by half baked correspondence courses that add up to nothing in terms of education, and these are often times approved by their parents, which boggles the mind. It is also true that there are skaters at DSC that have excellent scholastic records and do go on to higher education . Jamie was one of those exceptions. The problem is not that they finish high school in a longer period of time, but that the view at DSC is that education gets in their way. A skater must be strong in their desire to finish their public high school education, because the support is not there, especially for the more promising skater. I just don't buy the attitude that skating is the only thing in a young teen's life. Sarah Hughes is supported by coaches and parents that education is important why can't the kids at DSC. Also, GR/M are also deeply involved in their education as well as skating so don't tell me you can't have both.

BTW, Louis, DSC is in a very upscale area of high quality public education. There are no "shoddy" public or private school programs there. It may have Detroit in its title but believe me that is the only association with the city of Detroit.

[love2sk8]

Russians, however, have a totally different aspect on what most people would consider normal things, like getting a good high school education, to be able to pursue options in life that don't involve skating. I've been there before, with Marina herself...skating comes first. She knows what she wants. She is an amazing coach however, and that cannot be taken away from her. I have a lot of respect for her.

[BittyBug]

I know nothing about the DSC, but if you're looking for a supportive environment with talented coaches that also value education (and perhaps as importantly, their students' mental health), you should look into the Skating Club of Boston.

[what?meworry?]

with dsc, "you pays your money and takes your chances" that it will work our for your kid.

so far only tanith/ben have persevered. i can't think of any others who left dsc and continued on to skate to their potential:
joseph, chalom, silverstein, gates, butler, klus, manon. (fyi the legend has it that justin's partner with whom he won intermediate came to the rink for practice and saw him trying out with jamie.) o'meara and ralph are still in question as to whether or not they will continue successful careers. these are all very talented dancers who had a lot more skating in them.

justin and his girlfriend, hillary are competing for fun.
naomi was a long-time early solo skater and competed novice/junior with john lee (at 16/17 i think) before matching up with peter at 18.

i'm still inclined to think that teams are better served going to igor after they are "adults" meaning 18 or older. we know igor can take adults and make them great skaters (punselan/swallow; wing/lowe).

i think if i had a 'tween (9-14) or teen (15-17) girl i'd think long and hard about dsc---a great track record for winning, but not all that great for the young teams surviving within the system to their full adult competitive potential. i think i'd let a mature and self-confident 17 year old girl go. the guys are usually fine but case in point, justin, his partner didn't survive the "challenge" so he also lost the momentum that was propelling them to great success.

[HotIce]

At Nationals you could see the JOY on Justin's face in just SKATING with Hillary.
He never looked like that when he was skating at DSC with Jamie.
So, IMO, skating with Igor as his coach was no better for him then it was for Jamie.
I am so glad that he left there and has found enjoyment in skating again.

[MyTripleFlutz]

Originally posted by HotIce
At Nationals you could see the JOY on Justin's face in just SKATING with Hillary.


Yea, and later you could see her telling him off for ::cough, cough:: "making" her fall. :roll: Once again, appearances are deceiving.

[what?meworry?]

Originally posted by HotIce
At Nationals you could see the JOY on Justin's face in just SKATING with Hillary.
He never looked like that when he was skating at DSC with Jamie.
So, IMO, skating with Igor as his coach was no better for him then it was for Jamie.
I am so glad that he left there and has found enjoyment in skating again.

well, i admit that, having seen both teams, i couldn't see much difference in "expresions of joy" between the two teams.

however, you point out the quandry, training to win medals for the usa and the survival, mentally and emotionally of your kid, for their long-term success in life.

there must be a way to achieve both. perhaps the ol' "developmental process" comes to mind. i have a great old article first printed in the readers digest (of all places) that discusses this. it was a study. i'll try to find it and i will excerpt (or post the whole darn thing) to explain the stages of development/coaching.

[icedancefan]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Skatingsarah
[B]I wouldnt go as far as not recommending him to younger dance teams.
Igor has coached my young - 13 year old for over two years. Overall I belive Igor is by far the best dance coach we have seen. We learned to appreciate all that Igor and DSC have to offer after trying another high level coach and skating center for several months.
My young skater did have a short rough time with Igor while Igor was going through some tough personal issues.
There is no dought that Igor can be demanding and tough. I belive that raising two young children may help Igor understand how to balance skating with other priorities.
Igor invited my skater with him and Igor son recently to go snow boarding- they all had a great time!

[IgglesII]

Originally posted by BittyBug
I know nothing about the DSC, but if you're looking for a supportive environment with talented coaches that also value education (and perhaps as importantly, their students' mental health), you should look into the Skating Club of Boston.

I can agree with that.

Barrett & Tom have won the USFSA Developmental Coach(es) of the Year award. Has Igor ever won that?

How many below-senior level medals have Barrett & Tom won now?

[what?meworry?]

i would agree but disagree slightly. historically, boston has excelled in incredibly great technique on compulsories, but was relatively weak in the creative, freedance, side. you can't succeed without the technical quality for that feeds the creative success.

however, recently boston has noticably improved the od/fd side of the training.

while i don't necessarily agree that the "future" of american ice dance will come out of boston, i do agree that it is one of the most solid training clubs we have.

i admit to appreciating the fast, hard, on-the-edge skating over the safe stuff. but the judges don't agree with me most of the time.

recently, though (morgan and max leap to mind) less emphasis has been put on the compulsory quality and more on the od/fd. that's what's been going on in international competiton for a while now. so if we are to succeed in achieving our usa goal of winning international medals, well then, focus on the development of technique that leads to great od/fd and spend just enough time on the cds to get bye!

[quark]

Originally posted by what?meworry?
.. well then, focus on the development of technique that leads to great od/fd and spend just enough time on the cds to get bye! A perfect example of this are results from 4C's

http://www.usfsa.org/events_results/results/200203/fourcontinents/dance-free.htm

As I've said before, Marina Zoueva can't teach compulsory dances. Poor Tanith and Ben have to survive their CD marks in order to win.

[Louis]

Well, "poor Tanith and Ben" have also been doing the senior compulsories for 5-10 fewer years than most of the top competitors in the event. If you want to see how far dancers with top-level compulsories can go without top-level free dancing to back it up, just take a look at Lang/Tchernyshev who have now been passed by yet another team.

I agree that Tanith and Ben need lessons with someone who is better at teaching compulsories, but I can't disagree with Igor's focus on free dancing. If anything, I think the judges have been so impressed with B&A's free dancing that they've tended to *over* mark them in the compulsories. I'm not sure that more training time devoted to compulsories would actually produce better compulsory dance results if that improvement came at the expense of free dancing. So much of ice dance results boils down to image. If Nationals were strictly a compulsory dance competition, do you think Matthews/Zavozin would have finished fourth in the compulsories? I don't. Similarly, I think B/A are often left "within reach" of the finish that they're capable of achieving in the FD.

[quark]

Originally posted by Louis
Well, "poor Tanith and Ben" have also been doing the senior compulsories for 5-10 fewer years than most of the top competitors in the event.I don't believe 5 additional years of time has anything to do with it. You're implying more time equals better compulsories. That's like saying to a mature singles skater that you'll eventually get that triple axle if you just put in a few more years. Dance teams at this level have superb edges and body control. Once you've reached this level you should almost be able to duplicate what any other team can do. But not if you are taught wrong to begin with.

I agree that Tanith and Ben need lessons with someone who is better at teaching compulsories, but I can't disagree with Igor's focus on free dancing. If anything, I think the judges have been so impressed with B&A's free dancing that they've tended to *over* mark them in the compulsories. I'm not sure that more training time devoted to compulsories would actually produce better compulsory dance results if that improvement came at the expense of free dancing.That's not my point. I agree with you that Igor has the right emphasis and does his job very well. My point is that, as long as compulsory dances are part of the marking system, (I wish they were not), you should make sure that a minimum effort is made to "get it right". I believe only a very few runthroughs done with correct training would greatly relieve this problem. After all, it's not like this team has never seen these dances before! Why should they suffer a 10% kick in the butt right off the bat?

[rinkrat24/7]

I know that many of Marina's students may cut back on school for training purposes and end up using inadequate correspondance courses...but Tanith uses a very good homeschooling program. I know this from experience with this same program.

[what?meworry?]

home schooling, except for rare exceptions (religious, gifted, and learning disabilities, come to mind) rarely offers either the academic or social environment needed to succeed in the real world, unless it is spliced into a regular school environment.

i'm highly skeptical about any home schooling program unless the standardized testing can support the program and the graduates of home schooling are functional college students. religious factors excepted because the family has other priorities relating to the definition of "success" in the real world.

[WeBeEducated]

I in in total agreement with whatmeworry.

Many homeshooling parents have told me they never knew it would require so much commitment and effort from the parent/teacher. the parent is the one that usually begins to offer excuses for the amount of time spent on the lessons. none of these programs were meant to be solo efforts by a child. a parent is supposed to structure the day and the lessons and enrich the lessons with supplemental material. i know it is rarely done that way by skating parents, but is often done that way by parents who chose homeschooling for religious reasons.

many of these homeschooled skaters are being cheated out of an education. i feel the reponsibility to make it a worthy effort with good results is the responsibility of the parent who agreed to allow the child to drop out of school to spend more time practicing skating. if the child receives a subpar education, it is the fault of the parent.
sometimes a coach convinces parents to withdraw children from school and this is purely in the coaches best interest, but a surprizing number of parents say "oh, ok, whatever you think is best!".
I respectthose coaches in Boston that admire the value of a real education, and the importance of normal social skills. I am really happy with their approach to the sport when it involves the lives of children.
Carol Heiss Jenkins is also a coach that expects skaters to excel in the classroom and attend collge.

[vesperholly]

Originally posted by quark
I don't believe 5 additional years of time has anything to do with it. You're implying more time equals better compulsories. That's like saying to a mature singles skater that you'll eventually get that triple axle if you just put in a few more years. Dance teams at this level have superb edges and body control. Once you've reached this level you should almost be able to duplicate what any other team can do. But not if you are taught wrong to begin with.

Have you ever danced? Regardless of your relative talent, the more time you put into practicing something, the better you will get at it, until you eventually reach your physical (or political...) peak. Some skaters can work their butts off and never get a triple axel, but in the meantime they could still develop excellent spins, maybe land a triple toe-triple toe, who knows?

If your statement were true, Belbin/Agosto wouldn't have been fourth in the CD, they would have simply "duplicated" Bourne/Kraatz and placed higher! I guess I don't understand what you're implying - are you saying that B/A aren't skilled enough to be at "this level" where they can "duplicate" any other team? Or that "by now" B/A should be good at the compulsories? Or that even if they practice and work hard, their compulsories *can't* improve? (if you are saying the latter, boy I would not want you to be my coach!) To me neither of those make any sense.

Of course Bourne/Kraatz will be better at the Samba than Belbin/Agosto - B/K have been doing it since the early nineties, B/A have been doing it since what, 1998? I think that with a little time and more attention paid to the compulsories, B/A will get to the point where B/K are. They were given a very clear message at Four Continents: "we are not afraid to have you place higher than Lang/Tch in the OD/FD, but your compulsory dances are holding you back from a solid overall placement and perhaps even chances to advance."

Anyways, just ask Ryan Jahnke about the triple axel.

Jocelyn

[vesperholly]

Originally posted by WeBeEducated
Carol Heiss Jenkins is also a coach that expects skaters to excel in the classroom and attend collge.

I agree, but Heiss also gets a great deal of cooperation from Cleveland-area schools. Many let the kids in late or out early to facilitate their training.

Jocelyn

[legjumper]

I think Belbin/Agosto are usually marked appropriately in compulsories. They're still a young team and have yet to develop the polish, power, control, and authority that an older, more experienced team like Lang & Tchernyshev has. However, they keep time very well and have good edging and partnering skills--there's not usually much tugging or pushing and pulling going on with them.

That said, I agree that they should consider spending time with a coach who is stronger in training compulsories. With a stronger OD and FD, they can move ahead of teams in their own "bracket," but they're going to need stronger compulsories to put them in later starting groups, which will help them move up overall.

And that said, I'm really pleased with how they've done for themselves this season, and I have no desire to see them have too much expectation put on them to advance extremely rapidly. They've already exceeded where I thought they'd be at this point in the season.

[BJY4EVR]

Originally posted by butterfly
I'm not sure where Marina's talent is..certainly not coaching or great choreography. I can't believe they sent Liz away and settled for Marina. Marina believes that the CDs are useless and it shows in Igor's students.


You obviously do not know very much about ice dancing, nor have you ever worked or seen skaters work with Marina. Firstly, do the names Gordeeva and Grinkov mean anything? Marina is an amazing choreographer and trainer, and has a library of skating knowledge in her head that would dwarf anyone on this board. She is also one of the most respected figures in the sport. Also, she wasn't hired in DSC to teach compulsories. And, just to add, compulsories are likely going to be eliminated from competition within the next 10 years anyway.

[quark]

Originally posted by vesperholly
Have you ever danced? Regardless of your relative talent, the more time you put into practicing something, the better you will get at it, until you eventually reach your physical (or political...) peak.

If your statement were true, Belbin/Agosto wouldn't have been fourth in the CD, they would have simply "duplicated" Bourne/Kraatz and placed higher! I guess I don't understand what you're implying - are you saying that B/A aren't skilled enough to be at "this level" where they can "duplicate" any other team? Or that "by now" B/A should be good at the compulsories? Or that even if they practice and work hard, their compulsories *can't* improve?
Of course Bourne/Kraatz will be better at the Samba than Belbin/Agosto - B/K have been doing it since the early nineties, B/A have been doing it since what, 1998?NO. IMO Practice Time = Better is not correct. You're ignoring the coaching part of the relationship. If you're taught wrong, I don't care how long you practice it, you won't "get it right".

I'm not talking about instantaneous duplication. You don't learn something by watching it once or twice at competitions. That's different from saying they don't have the talent to duplicate the moves. You can't see yourself skate, so it's not easy to know what you're doing wrong. But, they have every ability to duplicate the moves "with coaching". For example, it doesn't matter how long you work on something if you are given the wrong pattern in a dance. That's a coaching issue, not a practice time issue. I get annoyed at people blaming a team for a poor compulsory dance when it might just as easily be a result of poor coaching. For some reason, coaches often get a free pass.

Now you go back to time vs performance again. Why in the world should B/K be better at the Samba just because they've been around since the early '90s. If I agreed with your time vs performance argument, no one can win until they put in their "time". Isn't that one of the problems with dance judging????

[BJY4EVR]

Originally posted by quark
Now you go back to time vs performance again. Why in the world should B/K be better at the Samba just because they've been around since the early '90s. If I agreed with your time vs performance argument, no one can win until they put in their "time". Isn't that one of the problems with dance judging????

when you're dealing with two teams that have both had great coaching, then time can likely and probably be the tie breaker. There's no better teacher than experience.

[quark]

Originally posted by BJY4EVR
when you're dealing with two teams that have both had great coaching, then time can likely and probably be the tie breaker. There's no better teacher than experience. Sarah Hughes has the Olympic Gold, not Michelle Kwan. Should Sasha Cohen expect to wait until Kwan retires? Obviously experience is not the best teacher; luck, timing, and individual performance are just as important.

Besides, you assume above that both teams have had great coaching.:roll:

[BJY4EVR]

Originally posted by quark
Sarah Hughes has the Olympic Gold, not Michelle Kwan. Should Sasha Cohen expect to wait until Kwan retires? Obviously experience is not the best teacher; luck, timing, and individual performance are just as important.

Besides, you assume above that both teams have had great coaching.:roll:

Dance is very different from Free style... the same rules do not apply.

They both have obviously had great coaching.

[butterfly]

Originally posted by BJY4EVR
You obviously do not know very much about ice dancing, nor have you ever worked or seen skaters work with Marina. Firstly, do the names Gordeeva and Grinkov mean anything? Marina is an amazing choreographer and trainer, and has a library of skating knowledge in her head that would dwarf anyone on this board. She is also one of the most respected figures in the sport. Also, she wasn't hired in DSC to teach compulsories. And, just to add, compulsories are likely going to be eliminated from competition within the next 10 years anyway. Don't get so uptight BJY4EVR, I'm glad Marina has one cheerleader. Your assumption that I have never seen skaters work with Marina is incorrect. I have indeed been up close and personal with Marina. I have observed her working with skaters. I'm sure Marina should be given credit for the work she did with Katia and Sergei, but you can't carry your reputation for too long without a new feather in your cap. You say she wasn't hired for compulsories at DSC...then why is she teaching compulsories? What was she hired for? Certainly Igor is not going to relinquish choreography of his dancers to Marina. Anyone who knows Igor knows that.

Compulsories are required today and dancers must deal with them and try to achieve their best. If they start a competition and right out of the gate they throw away 20% of their possible score by performing compulsories that show poor coaching, it is both psychologically and strategically a bad move. Compulsories may be gone in 10 years, and the way the sport is going dance may be gone in 10 years. But as long as we have compulsories as one of the disciplines we must excel in this phase of dance.

[vesperholly]

Originally posted by butterfly
Compulsories may be gone in 10 years, and the way the sport is going dance may be gone in 10 years. But as long as we have compulsories as one of the disciplines we must excel in this phase of dance.

Somehow I doubt compulsories will vanish like figures. How are young dancers going to learn dancing and pass their tests? Most young dancers do not have a partner, and many never do any sort of free dancing at all. Free dance tests must be done with a partner. If you eliminate compulsories, what would you replace them with? I think that free dance "programs" would be too difficult for coaches to develop, would not really teach the basics of *dance*, and would be too difficult to test, and dance would be very discouraging to young skaters. Finding a partner is hard enough! As it is I don't see many free dance tests around.

If elite skating existed in a vacuum I could see compulsories disappearing in 10 years, but it does not.

Jocelyn

[BJY4EVR]

I disagree. Although I think compulsories are incredibly valuable in terms of allowing skaters to develop basic skills (much like figures), I doubt they will remain an integral part of the sport much longer. There is very little fan appreciation for them, at least compared to the other events. I'll predict that in the future, dance will probably be limited to an OD and a Free Dance, and test skaters will skate free programs, however with very specific required elements.

In responce to Butterfly, Marina does work quite a bit on choreography with Igor, particularly in the ODs, so you're wrong as far as that goes. She was hired simply as another coach, and with so many teams there's no way Igor could manage that by himself..

[vesperholly]

Originally posted by BJY4EVR
I disagree. Although I think compulsories are incredibly valuable in terms of allowing skaters to develop basic skills (much like figures), I doubt they will remain an integral part of the sport much longer. There is very little fan appreciation for them, at least compared to the other events. I'll predict that in the future, dance will probably be limited to an OD and a Free Dance, and test skaters will skate free programs, however with very specific required elements.

Unless the plan is to make them solo free dances, this will be very difficult to implement. In the majority of locations, male dance coaches are highly in-demand and over-worked. If you required them to do free dancing tests with their students as they now take students through compulsories, it is a totally different animal.

Then the coach and skater must create choreography, unless there are specifically designed step sequences, and wouldn't that be the same as a compulsory anyways? That's basically like for the Moves in the Field test, asking a skater to design a move that shows their grasp of power and edge quality, and judging them accordingly. Of course skaters will design a move that fits their particular strengths, and they will never become a well-rounded skater. It can't be done fairly.

Anyways, this is off-topic. :-)

Jocelyn

[Ellyn]

The ISU doesn't really care about testing, they just care about competition. If or when they get rid of compulsory dances in international competition, it will still be up to the individual federations how to test their skaters.

I suspect that most of the English-speaking countries would continue to use compulsories for testing purposes and not throw them out immediately as soon as they're gone from international competition. After all, it did take several years for figures to be eliminated entirely, and there are a lot more people (mainly adult skaters, not would-be elite competitors) who do CDs primarily for fun, whereas few people would do only figures.

And especially at the non-elite levels, I can't see CDs being eliminated completely in the US even as quickly (10 years) as figures disappeared. If anything, I could imagine a separate competition track for CDs that would appeal more to adult skaters and using MITF as the test track for solo free dancers until they find partners.

(Of course, I've always wanted to see a solo free dance competition track anyway. I believe something of the sort does exist in Great Britain?)

[WeBeEducated]

Skating is a spectator sport and though icedancers will continue to practice and test compulsory dances, I can imagine the day coming soon when competition will consist of original dance and freedance at the senior level.
It has already been whittled down to one compulsory in many competitions, and just 2 compulsory dances for novice and junior.

The average spectator prefers the original and freedance, and in the small amount of TV time alloted for icedance, NOBODY wants to waste it on viewing a compulsory that looks just like the one granma circles the rink with during club ice!
Everyone knew the end of competitive figures was coming, and everyone feels the time for competitive compulsory dances is upon us. Afterall, if great compulsory dances indicated great freedancers the current US Junior champs would be a different team altogether.
There is a tremendous complexity in the free and a greater challenge to perform the movements with speed while maintaining an artistic and musical presence...much more difficult than performing a good compulsory in my opinion.

[sunshine21]

Which correspondence program is being used that is so inadequate. I know of many kids that skate that are using correspondence shools. wondering which ones are the better ones

[icecat]

Distance learning information is available on the web. Just check the class levels... do they offer college prep and honors classes? How about math levels... can you get a trig or calc class or does it only go up to algebra and geometry. Look at the curriculum and class descriptions and syllabus to see what texts are used and what is covered. Do you have access to professors and instructors if needed? I have found that a combination of distance education with actual classroom to be an excellent compromise. That is, of course, if you can get the school to go along with it. They are often willing to provide laboratory science classes and art electives which are more appropriate for visual, hands on learning as opposed to e-school or correspondence classes. Distance learning is not an appropriate choice for every student, but it can be a viable educational experience.