3 combo's allowed in freeskate?

[wvgal57]

I read somewhere that a skater was allowed to have up to 3 combination jumps in the freeskate. If this is true, which ladies are doing 3 combination jumps in the freeskate and what are the combinations?

[ontherock]

The number of combo's is limited only by the fact that no triple jump may be attempted more than twice.

[adrianchew]

There are three rules...

No more than 3 jump combinations or jump sequences may be performed in any freeskating program at any level (SSR 4.04B). There is no limit on the number of jumps included in each combo or sequence.

Limit of 3 jump combinations/sequences, not including...

Note however that in Senior or Junior level programs, additional jump sequences containing jumps of not more than 1 revolution may be performed as part of the connecting footwork preceding double or triple jumps (SSR 4.05B, 4.06B)

Example - a walley/reverse walley as part of connecting footwork into a triple jump, is NOT counted as a combo/sequence.

SSR 4.05A, 4.06A - Only 2 different jumps (3 or more revs) may be repeated. For triple and higher jumps only 2 different TYPES of jump (eg flip) may be attempted more than once each. These 2 may be attempted only twice each, once as a solo, once in combo or sequence.

Limits on the repeats of jumps (sometimes referred to as the Zayak rule).

The interpretation of quadruple jumps as different from a triple is a known but unwritten rule at least for the men I believe... allowing for example Plushenko to do a quad-toe/triple-toe combination and a quad-toe by itself... this is a gray area open to interpretation, that perhaps others can comment on.

[Louis]

Combos/Sequences of the top ladies

Slutskaya
3lutz/2loop (since she has a solo triple loop as her first element, I guess she's not going for the two triple-triples this year)
3salchow/3loop (possibly with half loop-2salchow on the end)
3flip into 2axel might be able to count as a sequence depending on how long she takes to get into the 2axel

Kwan
3lutz/2toe
3toe/2toe or 3toe/3toe

Hughes
3lutz/2toe
3salchow/3loop
maybe 3toe/3loop

Cohen
3lutz/3toe
3flip/2toe
3toe-half loop-3salchow

Suguri
3lutz/3toe
3toe/2toe

Onda
3lutz/2toe
3toe-falling leafs-3toe
2axel into 2axel

Arakawa
3lutz/2toe
3salchow/3loop
3toe/3toe/2loop

Sokolova
3lutz/3toe
3loop/2toe
3salchow/2toe (or 3toe?)

Volchkova
3lutz/2toe
3toe/2toe (or 3toe/3toe?)

Kostner
3lutz/3toe
3flip/3toe
2axel-half loop-3salchow

Robinson
3lutz/2toe
3salchow/3loop

[Marco]

Michelle has a 3flip 2axel kinda sequence in the Nationals version of Aranjuez too so I guess is her 3rd combo/sequence. When she was still doing 2 2axels in 1995, she would do one in combination.

Note there are people going over the limit:

Irina @ 99 GPF 2nd LP:
3lutz3loop
3sal3loop
3flip into 2axel
3toe2toe
(and there's 3toe to replace the 2nd 3lutz)
so that's 4, unless the 3flip thing doesn't count as a sequnece.

Elena Sokolova @ 98 Nagano Olympics LP:
3loop3toe
3lutz2toe
3sal half loop turn 3loop
3toe2loop
2axel into 2axel
(and there's 2flip and 2lutz)
so that's 5.

Yoshie Onda @ 02 SLC Olympics:
3lutz2toe
3flip2toe
3toe 3toe sequence
2axel into 2axel
(and a single flip, a 3loop and a 3sal)
so that's 4, unless the 2axel sequence doesn't count.

Note that a lot of Ukrainian ladies don't plan combos in the LPs:
Oksana Baiul, Yulia Laverenchuk (only had the 3flip 3toe sequence) and Galina Maniachenko can do beautiful jumps but they seem to not have the awareness of a combo jump requirement.
And there's also Tatyana Malinina who could do the beautiful triple jumps but just couldn't or wouldn't tack on a 2toe on the lutz or flip. The 3sal2toe isn't always planned either.

Adrian raised a good point about single jumps into sequence. I remembered in 98 US Nats LP, Nicole Bobek did a 3toe early in the program, and then later on did a falling leaf into 3toe. At that time I thought it would be OK, but now it seems like one shouldn't be counted?

Sometimes I think people do get credit for doing different combo jumps:
Besides Irina, I think Tara Lipinski and Nicole Bobek are good examples.

Tara @ 98 Nagano Olympics:
3lutz2toe
3loop3loop
3toe half loop 3sal

Nicole Bobek @ 95 Worlds LP:
3lutz3toe
3flip2toe
1foot axel 3sal

With all 3 combos or sequence ending in differnet jumps. So it isn't just like AP, doing 2toes all the time as the second half of the combo.

[Luenatic]

Michelle also did 3Flip/2Toe combo at Aranjuez in both SA and Campbell's.

Marco, I also thought of Michelle's 3F/2A as a sequence. But I'm not sure it's counted as a sequence though. There may be too many steps in between the 2 jumps. I re-watched the tape and there were 2 forward strokings after the 3F and the long RBO glide to set up the 2A.

[BigB0882]

Personally, I wouldn't count Michelle's 3flip into 2axel as a true sequence and I doubt the judges do. I do think though that she gets some credit for it because it is a little harder than simple doing the jumps both very seperate.

[adrianchew]

Marco's list is flawed - some of what is listed are not sequences but seperate jumps done close together (greater difficulty). Eg. Yoshie's 2-axel into 2-axel is not counted as a sequence.

[meli]

umm....Adrian, do we have an icon for an exploding head after all that technical stuff listed above? 8O ;)

[wvgal57]

I'm sure I've heard commentators talk about Irina's 2axel out of her 3 flip but never that it was a combination. Much compliments about the fact that her 2 axel just seems to come out of nowhere.

I'd love to see Irina bring back her Tano-Double Axel and even maybe do a double-axel double axel like Onda does. I do know she worked on 2axel directly into another double axel like Yoshie does and am surprised that it's not in her programs. Irina's 2 axel is an excellent element for her and that Tano2axel was one of my favorites. We asked her about it once in our QA session and she said the judges never rewarded her for it so she felt it was not worth putting in the programs....I think it's gorgeous though. I really do feel that some of the teams do go for elements that are going to score well on the judges card and not all showy fluff. Spirals for example, are set up European ladies programs as an "element" rather than a "statement" and while the American commentators call Irina's spirals sloppy the community at large say that Irina's spirals are the among the best in the business -- she may not have the extension but she makes up if with her edges, speed, transitions and other factors.

[Louis]

Sequences are technically supposed to have some linking elements between the jumps. It's kind of hard to have linking elements into an axel. Technically, Slutskaya's 3flip into 2axel isn't a sequence, but it's of comparable difficulty to a sequence. Same for Onda's 2axel into 2axel, depending on how she does them. (Sometimes they're almost back-to-back; other times, there are several strokes between them.)

At 1999 Evening of Champions, Slutskaya did an encore of five double axels in a row. (It was televised on PBS in 2000.) I've often wished she would include something like this in her free skate.

[Excidra]

Actually Irina had two triple lutz in her 2000 GPF finals program

3lutz/3loop
3sal/3loop
3lutz
3flip-2axel
3toe/2toe

I was very surprised to see Irina add a 2toe at the end of her 3toe, because I was under the impression that ladies were only allowed two combos. So now is it possible for a lady skater to complete 3 3/3s...

[Excidra]

Louis, 5 double axels in a row, is that possible? Irina did it, so it is possible, but never thought a skater could do an axel after an axel..
Or did Slutskaya take hops in between her double axels?

I have not seen US Nationals, but kwan now does a 3flip into a 2axel? I know that Irina has been doing that for a while now, but the 3flip is not consistent enough for kwan to have another jump right after it.. The 3flip has always been the one jump that has given her trouble. I can't understand why she would add a jump few seconds after it..

[Arsenette]

I remember seeing in a video (Reflections on ice) of Carol Heiss doing 3 single axels (in both directions) - meaning she did 1 to the right immediately into 1 to the left then right into 1 to the right again. What if someone did that (or did a 3-2-1 or 2-2-2).. you know.. can that be a combination/sequence?

[Louis]

Excidra, the sequence was 2axel-step-2axel-step-2axel-step-2axel-step-2axel.

At the 2000 GPF, Slute substituted a 3toe for the second 3lutz in "Don Quixote." She did land two 3lutzes in her first free skate to "Carmen," but that one didn't have any triple-triples.

Kwan's 3flip into 2axel doesn't look like Slute's.... trust me... there's no copying going on! :)

[inthezone]

Originally posted by Excidra
Actually Irina had two triple lutz in her 2000 GPF finals program

3lutz/3loop
3sal/3loop
3lutz
3flip-2axel
3toe/2toe

I was very surprised to see Irina add a 2toe at the end of her 3toe, because I was under the impression that ladies were only allowed two combos. So now is it possible for a lady skater to complete 3 3/3s...

Irina actually did do a 3 toe in place of the second 3 lutz, explaining why she needed the second 3 toe to be in combination. Check your tape.
Like Louis said, a sequence is technically supposed to have linking movements between the jumps, but I would consider Irina's way of doing it a sequence because it's hard to put steps going into a 2 axel. As for Michelle, her's is basically jump after another. 3 flip, stroke stroke stroke, 2 axel.

[duane]

what about surya's 2axel/2axel at 95 Worlds? after landing the 1st 2axel (landing, of course, on her right foot), without her left foot ever touching the ground, she went immediately into the 2nd 2axel. i always saw this as a combo because there was no step in-between.

whether a combo or sequence, i guess surya went over the limit as well:

3lutz/2toe
2axel/2axel
3flip/3toe
split-jump/3toe/.5loop/3sal

[Marco]

Adrian, that's why I said I am not sure if they count as sequences or not. Sometimes Yoshie lands 1 2axel and immediately does another 2axel, but sometimes she strokes around for the other one. I guess it depends on the landing of the 1st one.

[miki_tan2]

SSR 4.05A, 4.06A -

These 2 may be attempted only twice each, once as a solo, once in combo or sequence.


Under this rule, 3Toe/3Toe or 3Loop/3Loop are prohibited?

[Marco]

3toe3toe, 3loop3loop, 3sal half loop 3sal and 3flip half loop 3 flip are all OK.

BTW, I just watched Michelle's free skate from Nationals. LOL! There's no sequence going on! Just 2 separate jumps done in quick succession. Still nice ot see though.

[twinkle]

[SSR 4.05A, 4.06A -

These 2 may be attempted only twice each, once as a solo, once in combo or sequence.]

I also don't understand this rule.

For example, Kostner doing 3lutz-3toe and 3flip-3toe seems to violate it, both the 3toes are in combination.

Also, Tara and Sarah's 2 3-3 combinations were 3sal-3loop and 3loop-3loop, this means that the 3loop is repeated 3 times, not twice, and all of them are in combination.

Does anyone actually
know the answer? (guesses are just going to confuse everyone more)

[Ellyn]

Originally posted by twinkle
[B][SSR 4.05A, 4.06A -

These 2 may be attempted only twice each, once as a solo, once in combo or sequence.]

I also don't understand this rule.

For example, Kostner doing 3lutz-3toe and 3flip-3toe seems to violate it, both the 3toes are in combination.

If that's actually how the rule is worded now, then it's worded wrong, because it's obvious from the way it's applied in the real world that it's permissible to do the same jump in combination both times.

Also, Tara and Sarah's 2 3-3 combinations were 3sal-3loop and 3loop-3loop, this means that the 3loop is repeated 3 times, not twice, and all of them are in combination.

No, not in the same program.

In 1996 Tara was doing 3sal-3loop; in '97 she changed to 3loop-3loop and 2axel-half loop-3sal. In '98 it was 3loop-3loop and 3toe-half loop-3sal. So she never did the same jump three times in the same program.

Similarly, Sarah was doing 3loop-3loop in 1999, but once she started planning to do two triple-triples she switched to 3sal-3loop and 3toe-3loop.