Johnny Weir's New Journal Entry

[haribobo]

Hello everyone. I just discovered that Johnny has posted a new journal entry on his website all about the events at Nationals. I thought it was a very interesting read, and definitely helps to answer a lot of the questions created by his appearance in the free skate. Also enjoyed his response to Michael Weiss' comments. I think what he said about Mike is appropriate and I'm glad he said it. There was no need for Michael to make those comments, especially when his skating in the SP did not back them up. Good luck to Johnny on his road to recovery from this horrible injury-filled season.

http://www.figureskatersonline.com/johnnyweir/journalmain.php?p=03january.php

[Arsenette]

Thanks! 8-)

[adrianchew]

Interesting read - people have been 'speculating' about him running into the boards and the start over. From the perspective of one being in the arena, I did believe it was warranted, and not a 'fake' as people watching on TV seemed to think. He hit the boards opposite from where I was seated, about straight on right across. The fall on the 3-axel looked horrible. :(

[lilwish]

Exactly ! From watching the men's coverage I think much of the speculation was caused by Dick Button's commentary even though he did not have the same vantage point as some of us in the first few rows. It would have been difficult unless you were down near the ice to see exactly what happened at the boards with Johnny. I think Dick's outrage fueled a fire that was not deserved.

I wish Johnny well next season and hope he will get some international assignements. he has a great future and is one of our best.

[ella101]

I think the point is, if you hit the wall you get up and keep going! I agree with Dick's commentary!

[skaternum]

IMO, whether it was real or fake isn't the issue. Why was he allowed to get up and start again? What kind of crap is that? When you hit the board, you get up and keep skating. If you can't, you get off the ice. I don't believe he should have been given that little break by the Ref.

Just my opinion.

[CMc]

Well he said he got the wind knocked out of him, so I guess for him starting over was the only thing that afforded him time to regroup. Hey, if Tonya Harding was allowed to start over after all of her screeching-halt theatrics in front of the judges, what's so horrible about Johnny Weir getting a do-over?

[Arsenette]

It is the Referree's perogative to do so.. He knows that he's at the mercy of the Referee.. The whole point of the rule in general is to allow a skater to compete and if there is the slightest idea that he/she may be injured then they make the appropriate decision.. Mind you.. it's not like he went back.. got a rubdown and went back on the ice.. this was quick and he continued to where he could.. then when he KNEW it wasn't happening he took it to finally get off the ice. I don't see a problem with that.. I also don't see a problem with the Referee not allowing him to continue from the first fall.. The argument should be the ref's decision.. not Johnny's decision to ask the referee for the allowance. I think the criticism is aimed in the wrong direction. It's in the rules and it worked for him for that short time. Heck.. the rules have been ammended greatly to shorten the time between the interuption.. it's not like if he was on the ice for 20 minutes trying to finish the program.. And the idea of him getting off the ice to regroup (ala A/B a few years back after she hurt herself falling on the throw triple axel).. THAT would not have been tolerated.. it's now in the rules to prevent that sort of thing. I for one am happy he even tried and when it was evident that it was not working.. he spared us all and got himself off the ice before he REALLY hurt himself.

[dbell]

Very eloquent journal entry. Too bad he's still getting bashed for falling twice.

Nice post Arsenette.

[skaternum]

Yes, it is the referee's perogative. I believe I made it clear that I understand that concept by stating that he got a break from the ref. I still think it wasn't warranted. Not just in this instance, but in general. Much as I hate to agree with Dick Button, most sports don't give you do-overs because you got the wind knocked out of you. If you're racing down a ski slope and you fall, you either get up and keep going or you're out. If you can't keep racing, you're out. I think it's a bad idea to let athletes take time out (i.e., regroup) before they keep going. Call it skating Darwinism, but I say if you can't keep skating, you should just get off the ice. This is supposed to be an athletic competition, not a run-through at a local rink.

I'm not bashing Weir because he fell twice. I'm bashing a rule I find ridiculous and the referee's interpretation of it.

[ToeJam]

The problem I had with his restarting his prgoram is that thier is nothing in the rules that says you can restart a program if you fall. You may pick-up the program if you have "technical difficulites" ie: a strap coming undone, a blade coming loose, but since when is falling a technical difficulty????

I feel bad for Johnny because I think he really had a shot to prove himself on the world stage this year, unfortuantely, he blew it. Dick's comments were not at all out of line.

If someone can please show me where in the rules it allows a restart for hitting the boards, I will gladly eat my socks... until then, well....

[adrianchew]

Everyone needs to realize the decision lies with the referee - and not Johnny. Dick fails to address this aspect - and of late he's made mistakes in his commentary as well.

skaternum - bashing is strictly prohibited on the boards. You can disagree with reasoning, but bashing will not be tolerated. Please don't ever use that word again in a post in the future.

[Mazurka Girl]

Originally posted by ToeJam
If someone can please show me where in the rules it allows a restart for hitting the boards, I will gladly eat my socks... until then, well....
page 63 & page 147. Although it says STOPS (due to equipment failure), see section B.2 which includes "when the skater interrupts the program because of injury or unexpected damage to clothing or equipment without the signal of the referee". People might agree or disagree about it, but it looks like there was some room for interpretation in the rules. I would prefer to see a referee make the decision on the side of the skater when there's a gray area. Lobby for a rule change/rewrite if you really object to it that much.

[RobinA]

Mark me as being in favor of giving the skater the advantage of the doubt in a gray area of the rules. If I want to see Darwinism I'll watch football. There are other sports that allow some flexiblity of circumstances. Tennis comes immediately to mind, I'm sure there are others.

[roogu]

I'm sure the because the first fall came so early in the program .... and he wasn't even setting a jump up, the ref saw no problems with starting over or even continueing from that point on. Had he fallen on an actual element and then skated over .. I think that'd be a very different story.


I didn't really see anythign wrong with Dick's comments. He didn't say Johnny was faking. He was just saying that htere's no need to stop if you hit the boards. You either let the music run and wait until you're ok and skate the program from that point on , or withdraw.

Remember what happened to Ingo and Steuer that one pro/am competition where she knocked him right in the face on a twist. I'm sure he wanted to get off and just pass out, but he didn't. He continued as the blood continued to drip down his face. He wasn't very pretty when it ended, but they finished .... and he even bowed!!!!

[ToeJam]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by adrianchew
[B]Everyone needs to realize the decision lies with the referee - and not Johnny. Dick fails to address this aspect - and of late he's made mistakes in his commentary as well.[QUOTE]

Adrian, although you have lately proved yourself to be a knowledgable skating fan, I'm sure you would agree that Dick has more skating history in his pinky than you could ever hope to have in your life.
I find it ironic that in the same message you post a warning that there be no bashing, you would "bash" skating's most legendary figure. Dick had a very serious fall two yars ago which has diminished his ability to be as quick as he once was. However, he is still a force and can out wit/out smart just about anyone in the skating world. Commentating is a difficult job, they make it look far too easy.

Please don't ever insult Dick Button again. He has given too much to this sport to receive comments like that.

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by ToeJam

Please don't ever insult Dick Button again. He has given too much to this sport to receive comments like that.

Wasn't meant as an insult but observation. Obviously some people can't differentiate bashing from opinions. Time to say bye-bye to your posting privileges.

[MyTripleFlutz]

Wow.. THAT gets you banned??? interesting.

[skaternum]

Originally posted by adrianchew
Obviously some people can't differentiate bashing from opinions.

Yes, exactly. Thank you for pointing that out for me.

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by MyTripleFlutz

Wow.. THAT gets you banned??? interesting.

The board has moderators - and its up to them and the admins to deal with bashing. Anyone who brings up bashing in a post is inviting a one way ticket out of here. Its been said time and over - Report to moderator - if you feel any bashing has taken place.

And for those who don't like how this board is run and moderated - you're more than welcome to leave. That's been said time and over again too. ;)

MEMBERSHIP IS A PRIVILEGE! - there are no fees or membership charges, and the board is open to those willing to respect the moderators and admins decisions and not cause trouble. The rest will be shown the exit sign and booted out the door. :twisted:

[Skatingsarah]

Thats one way to put a damper on a thread... So back to Johnny Wier, I really enjoyed the journal I think it taught us and cleared up ne unanswered questions. I still agree that Dick was right it is only right to keep on skating during a performance no matter what the situation.

I believe it was the world Jr or Sr I'm not quite sure but Sergei and Katia were skating. His strap on his pants had come undone and they had kept on skating. The Ref was blowing the whistle like a mad man and they just keep skating and completed the long program. They later said that they were told never to stop during a performance and that is what they did contrary to the refs dismay they fought it out. Now there are sume real troopers if you ask me!!
-Sarah

[coco]

At first I shared Dickie B's sentiments, but then I realized that boxer's get standing 8 counts (although not at their discretion) and tennis players get injury treatment during play - sometimes during a game itself as opposed to a changeover.

So it's not the totally bad rule I first thought it was. I think Dick's example about the skier resonated w/me because the day after (iirc) Tonya's hysterics about her freakin' shoelace, some skier who was contending for a medal lost his ski not even a second out of the little start house. That was it for him. I felt so bad for him.


Since the rule allows you to stop w/an injury, and then restart, knocking the wind out of yourself certainly qualifies as an injury in my book.

I think dick's point about "if you're injured enough to stop, then you're too injured to compete" is a good one, but having the wind knocked out of you is precisely the type of injury from which there can be an improvement (if not recovery) in < than 2 minutes. I would imagine skaters are quite likely to knock the wind out of themselves during high level competition, what with the splatting they do from time to time.

What happened w/A&B? How much time did they get?

[michele]

Basically A&B got to reskate their *entire* LP at the end, after all the other couples were done. I think they were around second (out of five) in the lineup. They had made some mistakes before Sarah's bad fall but when they reskated were pretty much clean, which enabled them to make the "super-final" (this was the first year of the head-to-head competitions) against S&Z.

Needless to say there were protests and the rule was later changed saying that if you reskated it had to be from the point where you stopped.

[what?meworry?]

this particular skate bothered me a lot, and i've been thinking about what i watched (pretty close up) for a while.

as a disclaimer, a friend and i disagree totally about this, but here goes.

johnny is a brilliant skater. if he skates a perfect program.

what i saw in his lp was this: he started posed and intensively focused into himself; he began his backwards skate maintaining this internal absorption; hit the wall, literally, and fell on his gluteus maximus (butt) the soft pudgie stuff, not the tailbone, and then dropped flat. he seemed stunned and stayed on the ice (it looked like he was thinking "now what"); got up, pondersouly looking down and skating while placing his hands on his back. he then went to the judges and requested a restart.

restart. tentative. first fall. second fall (which was a "splits" sort of fall which probably did hurt, but i've seen kids do this and keep on going.

my impression was that he was more embarrased than hurt after the initial run into the wall and he blew his consentration. that lead into blowing the first jump and the second jump which probably hurt.

unfortunately, as brilliant a skater as he is, if he can't get over this crumbling after a mistake, and with his track record, he may not make it to the top.

[iceskaterdawn]

I've seen other skaters fall doing basically nothing other than skating, and have never seen them go to a ref to ask for a reskate. I was surprised that Johnny went to ask for a reskate and even more shocked that he was granted one. I think a lot of skaters get the wind knocked out of them when they fall, but that is part of the sport. You get up and deal with it whether that means you continue to skate or you withdraw. I have no problems with skaters getting to restart if there is some sort of equipment failure or technical glitch that is out of their control, but to get a reskate because of a fall just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. One time I fell and slammed into the boards, but I got up and kept skating only to discover afterwards that I had fractured my shoulder in 2 places during that fall (adrenaline is an amazing thing!). No matter how bad the pain is you get back up and keep skating. Johnny is at a high enough level that he should be prepared for anything and I think he should have just kept going.

Dawn

[blue111moon]

At the time of the incident, I believe there was a question of whether Johnny's blade had been damaged when his foot hit the boards. That would be reason to stop as to continue with a damaged blade could cause severe injury. In that case, the skater would be given time to repair the damage if possible and then restart, with judging to begin at the point of the fall.

[ella101]

Johnnie actually did not get a start over. They announced he would pick up 33secs. into the music. In that beginning part he had triple lutz/triple toe. I understand he trains the way he skated. If he misses he starts over until it is clean. I think it was reflex. He missed and wanted to start agan. He could be a great skater. He needs to learn to recover from a mistake. Hopefully he will learn from this and train differently!

[Mazurka Girl]

Originally posted by Skatingsarah
I believe it was the world Jr or Sr I'm not quite sure but Sergei and Katia were skating. His strap on his pants had come undone and they had kept on skating. The Ref was blowing the whistle like a mad man and they just keep skating and completed the long program. They later said that they were told never to stop during a performance and that is what they did contrary to the refs dismay they fought it out. Now there are some real troopers if you ask me!!
It's also an example of a team that could be disqualified from a competition. I wouldn't recommend following a coach's instructions over a referee's at an official competition.

[missmarysgarden]

Amen to that. Talk about foolhardy. He could have caused a serious injury to his partner.

[CarolA0923]

Sergi and Katia were disqualified at that event. In her book you can tell that Katia felt their coach did not know the rules and led them wrong in this case.

[Mazurka Girl]

That's why I didn't understand why that would be used as a positive example of a team at a competitive event when it's really a good way to waste a whole year of training & goals.

[purplecat]

Does anyone remember Christopher Bowman's crash into the boards at the 1992 Worlds. He went on while limping through the routine...even landing a triple salchow! I believe they found he had ligament damage afterwards and I wonder if it was truly wise for him to have continued on. But it was his last eligible performance so I guess he had reason to give it his all.

Anyway, Johnny's crash into the boards was very similar and I'm sure he wanted to make sure he wasn't injured badly before he just continued on. I don't have a problem with letting him pick up from the fall. As someone else pointed out, it wasn't a reskate...he had to pick up from the point of his fall. Letting someone start from the beginning wouldn't be fair....like Abitbol and Bernadis in the GPF a couple years ago, but letting a skater make sure they aren't injured and then letting them pick up their program from the point of interuption doesn't sound too unfair to me.

[what?meworry?]

Originally posted by purplecat
...Anyway, Johnny's crash into the boards was very similar and I'm sure he wanted to make sure he wasn't injured badly before he just continued on.

it didn't look at all like a "crash" to me. he didn't seem to be moving that fast yet to quality for that term.

[missmarysgarden]

FIG (International Gymnastics Federation) and USAG have, I think, a very pragmatic way of dealing with interruptions of the program - all of which are based on safety concerns.

If there is an equipment failure (on bars - bar supports spring loose, hand grips break, e.g., the athlete may stop, make repairs, and continue the routine from a reasonable starting point (may need momentum from previous skills to reach the point of failure), and judgment continues from the point of failure. If the judge believes the failure constitutes an unsafe condition, she should stop the exercise. No penalty to the athlete for equipment failure - unless it is the result of an error by the coach or gymnast, e.g., setting bars incorrectly, wrist wraps not secured - there must be a break, tear, failure etc. In that case, there is a .5 deduction, and the athlete may resume the exercise. When there is a fall on bars or beam, gymnast has 30 seconds to resume. If not, the exercise is over; skills performed are judged and a score given. This used to be 10 seconds. The change was made to allow an athlete to reorient before resuming to minimize injuries. If it takes more than 30 seconds to reorient, the judgment is that the athlete has not demonstrated recovery for safe continuation. A separation in the spring floor, big carpet wrinkle develops, music fails - gymnast may leave the floor and if it is determined it is not a coaching error, gymnast may repeat exercise at the end of the rotation - with a minimum of a 5 minute rest. Judge always has the option to stop an exercise if there is grave concern for athlete safety. All decisions are to made in favor of the athlete when there is any conflict in rulings. All of these changes were driven by insurers; both FIG and USAG make it clear that heroics in potentially dangerous situations have no part in athletic competition, and are to be discouraged and not rewarded. The rules discourage pressure for unwise decisions... such as a certain US Olympic vaulter who was lauded by the press for performing a second vault on an injured ankle. Bela played it to the hilt, but USAG was NOT HAPPY!

Makes sense to me, and as a judge who has legal responsibility for the event I am judging, I don't want my future compromised by a hot rod athlete - even if it makes a great story.

[yogurtslinger]

See, the strange thing to me is:

If a skater falls during a difficult patch of footwork, or on a lutz that took off too close to the corner, etc. etc., and proceeds to sit there for the next 10 seconds while the music continues, then gets up and skates over to the judges- no referee is going to allow that to start over.

But, you *do* get to start over if you accidentally fall as you're just standing there doing nothing?

Sure, Johnny got the wind knocked out of him- but perhaps it's because we've been pampered with only seeing the elite skaters on TV... skaters take *hard* falls all the time. They either get up (usually), or they withdraw.

People complain about figure skating being arbitrary- well that's as arbitrary as it can get!

Someone please explain to me the distinction between falling when you're doing nothing and falling during difficult footwork or on a jump.

Why would the former merit a re-start and the latter not? I think the thinking goes that falling when the skater's not doing anything is an "accident" or a "fluke"... well geez, falling on a jump is an accident too, surely no one intends to fall. I think it's good enough that skaters get to reskate if their equipment malfunctions.. in other sports, the athletes don't even get that much.

I also didn't think ToeJam's post warranted such a response.. it didn't seem to be his intention to "bash" anyone... jmo.

[RobinA]

"it didn't look at all like a "crash" to me. he didn't seem to be moving that fast"

I broke my elbow falling from a standstill, so speed really isn't a good judge of how damaging a fall can be.

I also saw Michelle Kwan fall going full tilt into a salchow in Boston, and her feet actually flew up over her head. It was the ugliest thing I ever saw, and she skated away from it.

[stroopwafel]

Are you talking about the fall that was reported on during the Nationals 02 practices in Boston? I'm pretty sure the article said it was a loop...

...Loops can be scary like that because if you drop your right arm going into them you can fall over before you've even taken off, and it *totally* takes you by surprise!

It happened to Plushenko once in Europeans in the LP! And he got back up and did one again a little later in the program and landed it - amazing!

Whenever I have one of those falls on 3loops I avoid the jump for days afterwards - falling unexpectedly is so physcologically scarring! You're all like, "But I wasn't doing anything yet!!!"

[RobinA]

Coulda been a loop, I didn't see her legs going into it, somebody's head was in the way. I just remember her skating into a jump and the next thing I knew she was flying in the air with her feet over her head. I thought that was the end of her at Nationals that year. I can't remember if that was before or after she did the short program run-through of EoE at another practice that was the most beautiful skate I'd ever seen. She got a standing ovation.

And yeah, the fall was reported in the Boston paper. It looked horrendous.

[what?meworry?]

i'm not sure if you are talking to me, but i was referring to the second attempted jump in his lp at nationals in dallas. bad fall. but up until then, just sort of dumb mistakes, imo.

[loveskating]

I bought Button's commentary at first, but my daughter did not. She was instantly convinced upon seeing the fall that Johnney injured himself on the first and second attempts...she has not been a fan of Johnney's, had nothing vested in him and in fact, the SP was the first time she saw him skate...she said the same thing happened to her on the boards, just in practice, and she could not stand up for about 10 minutes, after her buds helped her off the ice.

As for the second fall, well, I busted my knees, both of them, and my knee caps moved, and then got fluid on them etc...I had to be carried off the ice, so its a miracle Johnney even got up!

Every fall is not the same...people fall all the time, then there is that one fall that really hurts you.

[donnamarie]

Thanks for the link to Johnny's journal, Haribobo. I was curious about what happened, and it was good to read his explanation.

On tv, the first fall looked strange. He looked dazed or confused afterwards ... I couldn't tell on tv that it was the kind of fall that would really hurt. But if the wind was knocked out of him, and his back was twisted, it explains why he looked dazed. Now the second fall obviously looked like it hurt - ouch!

I was surprised by the ref's decision, since I've never seen a skater get to stop their music and re-start (from where they left off) unless there was equipment failure. (Tonya's shoelace breaking did constitute an equipment failure, regardless of the theatrics.) But ... since he was in 2nd place, since his short program was inspired, since he had a good chance of going to worlds, and would probably be an asset to our team if he did go, and since he was, indeed, injured, it seems to me an acceptable decision.

The whole thing seemed like a fluke, and I feel disappointed. His short program performance was wonderful, it's a shame he couldn't perform the lp. Hopefully he'll be back in fine form for next year.

[Gingi]

After reading the journal entry from Nationals and the previous one from his decision(and the USFSA's decision to pull him) from the GP competitions, it appears he is struggling with the pressure of seniors.
some sink, some swim
some just tread water for a few years
It takes more than talent to become a champion or a top senior competitior.

[hydro]

It takes more than talent to become a champion or a top senior competitior.


True. It takes more than raw talent to become a top senior competitor, but that doesn't mean that Johnny won't develop that something more. I've seen other competitors develop the metal grit they need to win or be competitive, so I wouldn't count anyone out based on one performance or a handful or performances. Each one is a lesson, and its up to the skater to learn it.

[bandit]

I don't think a ref should have allowed a restart after the first fall, but what's really disappointing is seeing a skater ask for a restart. I mean, Savoie ran into the wall and never asked for a restart. He had to be practically forced to stop after the strap on his costume broke. He's a real athlete and competitor, unlike Johnny. Midori Ito once fell into a camara pit, but was able to get right back up and finish her program. Also, Naomi Nari Nam took a bad fall in her SP at Nationals in 1999 where she banged her head on the ice and actually sat there rubbing her head for a few seconds, but she did not get a restart. She just got up and finished her program. If a tiny 13-year old girl knows enough to keep going, then Johnny should too. A real athlete doesn't just give up because of a little setback. Johnny's program wasn't ruined after the first fall. Given the way others skated that night, he may very well have won a medal even with the fall.

[Gingi]

I agree with bandit and yougurtslinger.
Today I watched skiing on TV.
A guy was flying down that mountain...unexpectedly, he fell.
sure, it must have startled him and caused some brusies.
but ya know, he didnt expect to still be in the race.
He knew the race for him today was over.
No explanations were needed.
No defenses.
The mistake is common to all athletes.
It is called
messing up!
For me, the issue wasnt the fall in Johnny's program, but the way he responed to it, the way the ref responeded to it, and the way he continues in his jouranl to attempt to make it much more of an issue than it was .
he fell...a common mistake in skating competitions
his reaction to the fall was the uncommon factor

[yogurtslinger]

I thought it was interesting what someone said about how Johnny practices- i.e. if he messes up in the middle of a program, he stops, then starts over from the beginning. I don't know... that doesn't seem like a very good way to practice.. it certainly wouldn't prepare you or train you for actual competition conditions.

I have a different feeling about how a lot of the Russian skaters train- they typically don't do complete run-throughs right before the competition, and I think that kind of ensures that the best performance won't be left on the practice ice. It also gets rid of that mentality of "limitless redos"-- you've only got one shot, do not miss your chance.... ;)

[CaSkater1]

Have any of you ever gotten the wind knocked out of you? If this is what happened to Johnny, I certainly think the ref was correct in allowing his to retart 33 secs. into his program.

Two days ago I knocked the air out of my lungs when I hit my husband on the heel with my shopping cart, we weren't walking fast but the handle hit me just in the right spot and it took me a couple of mins. to get my breath back.

It's not always cut and dry when you SEE something, I'd like to give Johnny the benefit of the doubt and say this was something real and he got a deserved restart.

[skaternum]

For me, it's not whether he got the wind knocked out of him or not. I don't like the rule that lets the ref allow him to stop and recover if he thinks he's hurt. If he stops his program because he's injured, I think he should be out. If he stops his program because of equipment failure, he should fix it & move on. Skating Darwinism isn't a popular opinion here, but oh well.