Quite a righteously indignant letter in the NY Times

[rack]

The letter is a follow-up on the professional/amateur column Selena Roberts wrote, as well as another Selena Roberts column on how well Michelle Kwan skated at Nationals. Here are a couple of my favorite righteously indignant parts:

"Kwan returned to the nationals with countless skating exhibitions (read 'shows'), endorsements and huge paychecks under her belt. In other words, young up-and-coming skaters are at a huge disadvantage, including the far more artistic and brilliant Sasha Cohen."

"How many nationals' medals does Kwan need, especially when in between she in piling on experience and money while denying a place on the podium to young amateur skaters who need those medals to move up to the next level?"

I just like the image of the evil Michelle showering herself with gold medals on a jewel encrusted throne while the poor pathetic (but artistic and brilliant) Sasha is forced to sell matches on the street to pay for her skates, her lessons, and, oh yes, her fur coat.

:lol:

[BigB0882]

Wow, either thats a really casual fan or a really upset Sasha fan. Probably both.

[Anjelica]

What a nasty article. SOMEONE has friends in high places I'll bet!

[amethyst]

That's just a nasty letter - not to mention inaccurate and highly biased. Sasha has plenty of her own well-earned endorsements - Got Beef, anyone?? Plus she receives appearance fees at the same pro-ams and competitions that Michelle does, not to mention being paid to tour with COI. What's the diff? Michelle has been around longer?

Sounds like sour grapes from a Cohen fan who showed their true angle with the 'MK needs to retire and give someone else a turn to win' sentence. That's my pet peeve, it's a SPORT not a game of tag. Sasha has a chance just like everyone else, she just has to skate clean programs and win. Sarah proved that theory in SLC.

[jkrjob]

Someone on SkateFans posted links to two other NYT's letters to the editor by the same person, both with the same "tone". I guess this person must have some connections at the NYT!

[Terri]

The author's name is familiar. Either the person does have friends in high places or they write the NYT so much that they inevitably get published every so often.

[duane]

the writer of the letter needs to realize the truth: that sasha hasnt yet stepped up to the plate at Nationals. the opportunity was there for her, but she failed to deliver. it wasnt michelle who denied sasha the National championship, but sasha'a flawed skating.

it's too bad that the NY Times even published that nonsense.

[vanillalatte]

I couldn't agree with you more, duane. Sasha had the chance and if you really look at the scores, the judges were just itching to crown themselves a new "queen of the ice". I clean performance would have gotten Sasha that crown, but she could not deliver. Even Sarah, although clean in the LP, looked labored on the ice and it was evident Michelle was the best skater of the competition.

This letter looks to be written by someone who really did not pay much attention to Nationals, and just wanted a reason to complain.

[valuvsmk]

Originally posted by Terri
The author's name is familiar. Either the person does have friends in high places or they write the NYT so much that they inevitably get published every so often.

The author (or someone with the same name) published a letter in the New York Times in July 2001 and included the fact that she had been a member of the New York City Ballet from at least 1962 to at least 1965.

Here is the link to that letter (watch for wrap):
http://query.nytimes.com/search/article-page.html?res=9F01E4D9153AF932A15754C0A9679C8B63

Her name is also on the list of alumni at the New York City Ballet's website.


Someone with that balletic background could very easily be a great admirer of Sasha Cohen and her balletic presentation.

Edited: I found at least 3 more letters by this person related to skating:

The original letter referred to at the beginning of the thread (scroll down past Bob Knight):

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/26/sports/26MAIL.html

An earlier letter praising Sasha (again, watch wrap):

http://query.nytimes.com/search/article-page.html?res=9F02E0D8143BF933A15752C0A9649C8B63


Yet another praising Sasha (and speaking of her own ballet history):

http://query.nytimes.com/search/article-page.html?res=9F00E0D81730F933A15751C0A9669C8B63

A letter dissing the perception of Debi Thomas as a role model:

http://query.nytimes.com/search/article-page.html?res=9D07E7DD1F3CF936A25751C0A96E958260

[Ivan W]

Man, it seems that someone desperately needs to get a life!!! :roll:

[IgglesII]

Someone also needs to update this person on the new definition of "amateur" as it relates to skating.

And while they're at it, take them for a tour of the Cohen estate in CT. Selling matchsticks? Me thinks not.

[Rachel]

If Michelle had retired and everything else had been the same, Sarah Hughes would be National champion right now. This would be the same young up-and-coming Sarah Hughes who went against Michelle and ended up on the center of the podium at the Olympics with a gold medal around her neck.

[kwanette]

Rachel, I was about to post the same thing re: Sarah.

No one doubts Sasha's abilities. She is a beautifully, talented skater. But Nats just wasn't her competion. Everyone who skates the tour, or competes in GPF makes money. Obviously this woman is confused by the amateur vs. eligible teminology.

I wonder if she even watched Nats.

[Blue Ridge]

Just guessing, but I'll bet Sasha would like to beat Michelle in a major competition, not have her step aside so Sasha has a better chance to win!

[loveskating]

Well, LOL, I didn't write that letter, and I wouldn't, but I could have.

I agree with her that Sasha is to a considerable degree more "artistically brilliant" than Kwan and I also think Sarah is considerably more athletically brilliant than Kwan...and Sasha is more athletically brilliant than Kwan as well. Given those assessments (which I realize are not universally shared) anyone who wants all the skaters to skate their best would be disappointed in Kwan's victory.

However, the letter writer never said anyone other than Kwan should have won U.S. Nationals 2003 as skated...rather, in claiming that the "edge" Kwan had in so doing was not that she is a woman, as Selina Roberts claimed, but rather that Kwan is a seasoned pro, she concurred that Kwan won.

But she did imply that Kwan's seasoned, semi-professional status is not only intimidating to both Sasha and Sarah, but to all the skaters coming behind Kwan.

I'd go farther -- in the U.S. Michelle Kwan had to beat Nicole Bobek to be National Champ, whereas the situation of Sasha and Sarah, et al. is more like having to beat (decisively) Kat Witte or Kristi Y.

The letter writer also questioned the reality of the amateur status of someone like Michelle Kwan, presumably citing by implication the fact that Kwan makes more money each year ($4 million) than "pro" Tara Lipinski (whom she mentioned) ever did ($1.5 million) (and to my knowledge, this has been the case since 1998...quite a long time).

She did not question the legalities of Kwan's right to stay in, but insisted that Kwan's decision to do so has implications for others... which of course is true, as conceded here, if Kwan had not been at 2003 U.S. Nationals, and the skating had been the same, then Sarah Hughes would be the U.S. National champ now.

To me, these are legitimate issues because I cannot fathom what yet another U.S. Nationals medal means to Michelle Kwan, while I agree with the writer, that for Sarah or Sasha or A.P. or Angela, such a medal would have been a ticket to further opportunity, not a redundancy.

At this point, even an Olympic Gold medal for Michelle Kwan would only mean to me that the girl gets what she wants, which is hardly admirable...and has NOTHING to do with the incredible skating that she created and which so changed and uplifted the sport I love...all these skaters, Sasha, Sarah, A.P. are "childen" of Michelle Kwan...they are as good as they are because of the standard she herself set...and they have surpassed her only because they are standing square on her shoulders...but she apparently doesn't GET that...and that makes me sad, very sad.

[KMK0902]

Loveskating,
how come Michelle won ( fair and square I might add ) if AP/Sasha/Sarah/et all have surpassed her ???

If they can't beat her, they don't deserve the title! Michelle does NOT owe anyone anything. If she can still beat all the upandcomers she deserves to be the National champion!

Yes, I agree with you and the writer of the letter, that Sasha is brilliant ( I love her skating ) , BUT if she can't learn to deliver when it counts, she doesn't deserve to the gold medal!!!

Just my two cents....

Kat

[Blue Ridge]

Originally posted by Blue Ridge
Just guessing, but I'll bet Sasha would like to beat Michelle in a major competition, not have her step aside so Sasha has a better chance to win!

I'm going to quote myself and add that I'm hard pressed to believe that anyone who is a Sasha fan would want Michelle to quit, rather than have Sasha beat Michelle.

[md2be]

i, for one, am glad michelle did not retire.
the brilliance she continues to display, and her fire for competition should not be dismissed just because she has won before.

Should Michael Jordan's team be denied a trip to the NBA finals just because Michael has won it a zillion times before?

If Michelle can compete with the top pack, then she deserves to stay in the game.

However, a situation like Kat. Witt who was not at the top of her game in 94 when she came back, as some other pros who reinstated, now THAT was cause for anger at the pros taking up someone else's spot.

[Badams]

doesn't sasha get a big fat check to place firmly "under her belt" for her beef endorsement? and didn't she just pick up a new endorsement with some crystal business that will also add to her "under the belt" collection? and sarah also has quite a few of these big fat checks. sounds to me that they are ALL 3 "seasoned professionals". if michelle had to retire because of this, so would sasha and sarah.

[nits]

I kind of feel sorry for whoever wrote the letter. He/she sounds like an obsessed fan that doesn't really understand the sport. Michelle is well respected in figure skating, and it's ridiculous to expect her to step down so your own favorite can win. If MK is the better skater, then she certainly deserves the win.
To say that Sasha has surpassed MK is simply not true. Sasha is a good skater, has made a lot of improvements, and tons of potential, but she has not surpassed MK..not athletically or artistically. Whoever wrote the letter either doesn't know much about figure skating, or hasn't been paying attention to the other skaters.
And with all the complaints of MK having endorsements, didn't Sasha get a nice beef endorsement last year....before the Olympics? Does that mean she is no longer amateur as well?
I think this article is cruel and is tearing MK apart to try to make Sasha look better. I remember an article last week that praised MK, but stated Sasha looked "choreographed" and some saw this as a major Sasha bash. Well, I think this article is MUCH worse than that article.

[Trillian]

Originally posted by md2be
However, a situation like Kat. Witt who was not at the top of her game in 94 when she came back, as some other pros who reinstated, now THAT was cause for anger at the pros taking up someone else's spot.

Why? If those spots truly belonged to someone else, those someone elses should have been able to beat Witt (and others).

The "giving someone else a turn" argument is crap. Period. These spots don't "belong" to anybody--the skaters have to go out and earn them, all over again, every year. If a younger skater wants the spot that Kwan is current occupying on the world team, they can go to the rink and train until they're good enough to beat her--and then not choke when the pressure is on. If Kwan still wants to compete, for whatever her reasons may be, it's her right. I guaruntee the next kid who comes along and does eventually manage to bump Kwan off the world team will be someone who's at a rink practicing right now rather than sitting around whining about all the "old" skaters who are taking up "their" spots. Nobody is entitled to anything, and if a talented skater competes very well for many years without ever making a world team, it's too bad for them--but it doesn't mean they were denied something that was rightfully theirs. It just means they weren't one of the lucky ones, and absolutely no one else is at fault for that.

[GrapeSoda]

That letter-writer sounds like she's a few bananas short of a bunch. It's very amusing that she'd rant and rave about mean ol' Michelle denying other deserving skaters a spot on the podium and then mention Tara, who proved once and for all just how stupid the "Michelle should step aside so others can have a chance" argument is.

I'm going to quote myself and add that I'm hard pressed to believe that anyone who is a Sasha fan would want Michelle to quit, rather than have Sasha beat Michelle!

YES! I consider myself a fan of Sarah, Sasha, and Michelle (gasp!), and I couldn't agree more.

[rjblue]

Posted by loveskatingAt this point, even an Olympic Gold medal for Michelle Kwan would only mean to me that the girl gets what she wants, which is hardly admirable Well- by this reasoning every hockey, baseball, football player who stays in their sport as a professional longer than 6 or seven years, just so they can win a Stanley Cup, or World Series, or Superbowl is a shameful person. What terrible role models our professional athletes are! Don't they know they should step aside so someone else can play. Michael Jordan did come to his senses and retire from pro basketball and gave a younger man a chance, but then he got greedy and came back. What an unfair thing to do. Just because you are good enough doesn't mean you should stick with something.

[Badams]

Posted by loveskating

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
At this point, even an Olympic Gold medal for Michelle Kwan would only mean to me that the girl gets what she wants, which is hardly admirable


you could say the same thing about ANY skater, even your favorite, sasha. afterall, had sasha won nationals, she would have "gotten what she wanted"; and according to you, this would hardly be admirable.:roll:

[unafaluna]

These people need to get on with their lives. Michelle was the favorite going into SLC, Sarah won, I don't remember all this negativity after it was over. Sarah had the better skate at the olympics, Michelle had the better skate at nationals, Sasha didn't, period. Sasha is brilliant, but it wasn't her turn yet. Let's move on people. I think less banter and let the skating speak for itself.

[bcskater]

Originally posted by md2be
i, for one, am glad michelle did not retire.
the brilliance she continues to display, and her fire for competition should not be dismissed just because she has won before.
AMEN TO THAT!!!!!!

[love2sk8]

I agree with unafaluna bcskater and md2be!

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by Trillian

The "giving someone else a turn" argument is crap. Period. These spots don't "belong" to anybody--the skaters have to go out and earn them, all over again, every year. If a younger skater wants the spot that Kwan is current occupying on the world team, they can go to the rink and train until they're good enough to beat her--and then not choke when the pressure is on.

Actually - the argument is very valid when one has enough forward thinking and foresight. The point being that spots to the big ticket events are an opportunity for younger skaters to gain valuable experience.

Hence the spots are valuable and its up to the federations to determine their priorities and criteria. Should the USFSA put future Olympic gold medal hopefuls ahead of tested and proven consistent but potentially "end-of-life" skaters as a priority? Some people would certainly say yes to this... and some people would not. Each is a different viewpoint but with its own merits.

How does one determine "end-of-life" and forward potential? I would go by difficulty factors and improvements year-to-year. Kwan hasn't been remarkable in this regard and lacks the jump difficulty of many upcoming skaters and has been out-jumped two Olympics in a row now. What if Sarah Hughes skated in a different era, and thus didn't manage to get that early start as a senior internationally - perhaps she might not have won the Olympics (and there you see why those spots are so valuable, and given to the right skater, might produce a future champion).

We've seen Lipinski and Hughes come from behind and upstage Kwan now. To me the only question is who's the next one going to be - Cohen? or one the younger spring chickens?... time will tell. Maybe the '06 ladies gold might go to a non-US skater too.

[Aaron W]

I completely agree with Trillian.

If the "spring chickens" want that spot ahead of Kwan, then let them beat her when it matters most - at Nationals. No one deserves the spot she's occupied for 10 seasons unless they beat her. With the exception of Tara at the 97 Nationals, no one has taken that step up to surpass Kwan. They have no one else to blame but themselves.

I find it extremely frustrating when people argue that other skaters should be *given* spots over Michelle when they can't even rise to the occassion and beat her when it counts the most - at the National Championships.

[Tessa]

Wow that Ellen chick needs to get a life. I guess since she retired from dance she has nothing to do.

She must have friends at the Times though. It's not very easy to get a letter to the editor published in the NY Times. OR MAYBE....she works there.

I just love how all the letters revolve back to her because her moldly old dance career is the most important thing in the world of figure skating.

Michelle kicked butt. Michelle kicked Sasha's butt at this year's Nats. End of story.

Worlds....begin another story.

[joyjoy]

This reminds of the 1994 Olympic games where the professional skaters were reinstated. Some people said that Brian Boitano should not have been skating since he already has a gold medal from the 1988 olympics. They said that he should give other people a chance. I didn't know what to think of it then. But now that I have been a skating fan for some time now, I think that it was admirable what he and the other professional skaters did. I think it took a lot of guts to come back all these years and knowing that you may be an underdog to these up and coming younger skaters. But Boitano said that he didn't want to look back on his career and not have tried to do this. If he still felt competitive, why not? He was and still better than a lot of younger skaters. I feel that they can learn a lot from him. Boitano's competitive spirit and Kwan's competitive spirit is still very strong. I don't think that Kwan expected to win; she herself even said that she was coming because she wanted to challenge herself and because she loves competition. Cohen and Hughes are talented and the ones to step up but they haven't really done so except for Hughes at the olympics. Is it Kwan's fault that Sasha faltered and fell? If Kwan wasn't there, someone esle might have won. Then would the blame be on the other skater? The person who wrote the letter seemed to be a strong Cohen fan but I feel that she's saying that if Kwan wasn't there, then Cohen would have a stronger chance in winning. I also see this as kind of dumb. It seems that the writer is implying that even though Cohen is brilliant, Kwan is still a little bit better. I think that it's stupid to even insult Kwan when indeed everyone who saw the competition can see that Kwan was terrific. Nobody made Cohen fall but herself. Soon, it might be Cohen's turn or somebody else's turn to stand on the top of the podium. But if Kwan still wants to train hard, compete, etc, which is very difficult to do with all the critics out there saying she should turn professional, I think she is to be admired and to be looked up to.

[Lee]

When the ones behind Michelle (or whomever holds whatever top spot in whatever country) can beat her when they have to, then they can have their spot. Until then, as others have said, back to the rink and figure out what you have to do to beat her.

I'm still not sure that I agree with the 'pros' being reinstated for '94 -- I tend to believe that once you make your bed (or retire from eligible competition), you have to lie in it. That being said, if there was no one else who could wrest a spot from Boitano, Witt, et al in order to go to the Olympics, well, that's not the fault of Boitano and Witt, is it? They obviously still had what it took to be able to represent their countries at the Oly's. Same goes for Michelle -- she can still beat 'em, she earns the spot, fair and square. She's *earned* all those perks she gets -- if Sasha and Sarah and the others want them, then they'd better take them away from her.

I certainly believe there is a time for all athletes to retire, but as long as they can be competitive by their OWN judgement, and have the desire to compete, then who are we to tell them they can't?

[dbell]

I would gather from the comments by the letter writer that she can not comprehend the word Amateur. She must also not know that Sasha skated with Champions on Ice last year (also known as a 'show' or 'exhibition'). No one at this level can claim the title 'amateur' with a straight face.

Maybe someday Sasha can put together 2 clean programs and win a higher spot than Michelle on the podium. Until then, I'll be happy to watch the competition with Michelle Millionaire taking on that poor skater needing "a medal to move up a level". :roll:

I think the writer's tutu is a bit too tight and cutting off some much needed oxygen to her brain.

[Rachel]

Originally posted by adrianchew
How does one determine "end-of-life" and forward potential? I would go by difficulty factors and improvements year-to-year. Kwan hasn't been remarkable in this regard and lacks the jump difficulty of many upcoming skaters and has been out-jumped two Olympics in a row now.

Perhaps, but one of the reasons the ladies are jumping as hard as they are is because that's what it takes to beat a Michelle Kwan (and an Irina Slutskaya). And mere jumps alone are not enough. Ask Carolyn Kostner and Shizuka Arakawa if landing 3/3 combinations is enough to put you on top of the podium against skaters who don't land 3/3 combinations.

Are they coming? Indeed. Are they here yet? Apparently not.

"Forward potential" is a gamble. How many "next great ones" have fallen by the wayside without hitting the top over the years? How many have gone to Worlds and crashed and burned? Whatever else the USFSA wants, you know that they want three spots on the Worlds team next year. Win, lose or draw, Michelle Kwan is as sure a bet as the USFSA could ever have and they know that. Taking her off the team would be a far riskier investment in the future than sending her to Worlds for the sake of the next team. If someone else wants to maximize personal potential, then all they have to do is beat her--which should be a snap, considering how many skaters out there have apparently superceded her on all levels.

[venice]

After reading all these responses, I think I have to agree with those who think this is just sour grapes from people who don't like Michelle and want her to get out of the way so that their favorites can win. After all, why is no one calling for Yagudin to retire (aside from his hip problem). He has not only Michelle's 4 world championships, but he also has the OGM. I haven't read one post anywhere calling him greedy for wanting to continue his amateur career. In the last 4 years he has dominated the sport way more than Michelle has. What about Katarina, who not only has two OGM's, but then went back to the Olympics again. If some of you are proposing term limits, then no one should be allowed to have an OGM and go for another, it would'nt be fair to other people who want a chance.

I, too, am puzzled by the number of Sasha fans who want Michelle to retire. If that were to happen, for the rest of her career, Sasha would be dogged by the idea that she never beat Michelle. The press would never let go of that. As for Sasha herself, she's a competitor. She wants to go after Michelle, she's said it herself. For Sasha to be the champion she is capable of being, she has to overcome her demons and then she'll triumph. She won't get there by people retiring to make it easier for her. Life just doesn't work that way.

I agree with those that have said titles have to be earned. Only then do they mean anything. We don't hand them out so everyone can have one. Then they lose all value.

[JDC1]

Just more whining. What you do on the practice ice is immaterial, it's what you do when the pressure is on that counts and generally that's when Michelle shines. (Except obviously at the Olympics). Clearly number 7 meant something to her, she's now only second to Maribel Vinson Owens and she proved she has the stuff to win Nats. As for Sasha being artistically superior, not in my book, Sasha has esquisite positions on the ice HOWEVER she has yet to actually interpret music (with the exception of My Sweet and Tender Beast) anywhere NEAR Michelle Kwan. Sarah and Tara didn't beat Michelle because they were better skaters they won because they skated better that night and yep it could happen again in 2006 or not, who knows if Michelle will even stay, she just said don't rule it out, things change. I hope Michelle stays around as long as competing stays fun, it seems obvious to me she loves to compete and that's why she's staying in Olympic eligible competition.

[Arsenette]

It's funny.. Michelle has been.. what? The worst 3rd?? That's still a World spot.. there isn't only ONE spot to go.. and most of the time the US HAS 3 spots BECAUSE of Michelle Kwan. The others have done well but not as well as Michelle.. "end of life".. She's in her EARLY 20's!! Heck.. she is STILL younger than Yamaguchi, Harding and Kerrigan in the previous Olympics.. it's not like if Michelle is 10th place and they send her because she's "more experienced".. She earned her spot every year and made it count. As for Olympics.. 2nd & 3rd in the world is nothing to sneeze at. Ask Todd Eldredge if he wants at least a 3rd place medal!

ITA that if anyone wants that top spot - they should beat her for it (in competition.. not ala Tonya Harding ;) ) and then when they get there.. STAY there like Michelle did for almost a decade. It's a competition but a beauty pageant.

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by JDC1

Sarah and Tara didn't beat Michelle because they were better skaters they won because they skated better that night and yep it could happen again in 2006 or not, who knows if Michelle will even stay, she just said don't rule it out, things change.

Actually - both Sarah and Tara did manage to win because they had the goods - ie. they went for big ticket difficulty and in so doing, were better competitive skaters than Michelle at those competitions. There is no reason to think they are "lesser" skaters to Michelle, especially when they have laid down more difficult elements onto the ice.

[Ivan W]

Originally posted by Arsenette
It's funny.. Michelle has been.. what? The worst 3rd??

Actually, in the US Nationals, she won her first medal in 1994 (behind Harding). She has medalled even since then and has never gotten a bronze medal!

1994 - Silver
1995 - Silver (behind Bobek)
1996 - Champion
1997 - Silver (behind Lipinski)
1998 - Champion
1999 - Champion
2000 - Champion
2001 - Champion
2002 - Champion
2003 - Champion

Now that's dominating your competition.

[Ivan W]

Originally posted by adrianchew
Actually - both Sarah and Tara did manage to win because they had the goods - ie. they went for big ticket difficulty and in so doing, were better competitive skaters than Michelle at those competitions. There is no reason to think they are "lesser" skaters to Michelle, especially when they have laid down more difficult elements onto the ice.

On the contrary, some of the best skates (Lipinski 98, Hughes 02, Slutskaya 01 GPF) have been done with her around.

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by Ivan W

On the contrary, some of the best skates (Lipinski 98, Hughes 02, Slutskaya 01 GPF) have been done with her around.

That's what I meant - Lipinski, Hughes, Slutskaya have all surpassed Kwan in difficulty - in competition - and should not be treated as "lesser" skaters in comparison to Kwan.

[loveskating]

Originally posted by KMK0902
Loveskating,
how come Michelle won ( fair and square I might add ) if AP/Sasha/Sarah/et all have surpassed her ???

If they can't beat her, they don't deserve the title! Michelle does NOT owe anyone anything. If she can still beat all the upandcomers she deserves to be the National champion!

Yes, I agree with you and the writer of the letter, that Sasha is brilliant ( I love her skating ) , BUT if she can't learn to deliver when it counts, she doesn't deserve to the gold medal!!!

Just my two cents....

Kat

Quite so...its not always the most accomplished skater who wins...however, gold, silver or bronze!

FOr instance, I think Kwan was more accomplished in 1999 when Maria beat her at Worlds...Maria won fair and square, and all that, but element for element, and overall except for the lutz and the camel spin, at the time, Kwan was better, IMHO.

Mainly, I'm looking at the "reasonable" planned content...maybe if Sarah had landed a 3 sal/3 loop, as she planned, and as she has shown us again and again that she can do, although it is a high risk element compared to Kwan's planned program at Nationals, she might have won? Or if Sasha had landed the sequence?

It IS an accomplishment to skate well when you have to, but its not the ONLY accomplishment...ask Todd Eldredge and Elvis Stojko why Ilia Kulik beat them at Nagano if you want to know why. He was overall the better skater, IMHO, but he was not as consistent as they were.

[Ariadne]

For years Michelle has been saying to interviewers that she just loves to compete, which I have dismissed as just camera talk. But maybe it's true. She just loves to compete.

My husband wondered why Elvis Stojko stayed around beyond when he was able to consistently be in the running for gold -- but apparently, he just loved to compete too.

I can see what they mean, since I really only like to watch eligible competitions (and the occasional pro-am) because I like seeing the level of difficulty and the design that goes into a good eligibe program. I get bored with the white-bread ballads of most pro skaters (though some, like Boitano and usually Browning keep me interested). I can see why an elite skater would find a constant diet of pro work something of a let down and want to stay eligible as long as possible.

In my own field of oriental dance, I no longer go after restaurant jobs, I leave it to my students, because I am tired of it and over 40. But there are dancers my age who are still kicking but in restaurant gigs, why should they retire if they still have the goods, the looks, and the fans? If young dancers want the jobs, let them win the audition. It'll happen someday and then the older one will have to adjust. It's as hard to adjust to your limits of age, as it is to be beaten by more experienced, stronger competitors. Some lives have more of one kind of disappointment, some have more of another. You have to face your own problems and make your own way.

You have to do what you love, and you should do it for as long as you can do it to your own standards.

I love Sasha, and I am very excited about a lot of young skaters. I went into Nationals torn between rooting for Sasha and rooting for Michelle; the only reason I wasn't rooting for Sarah too is that she won the Olympics . . . After Michelle laid down that great program, though, I wanted her to win. But I also knew he program could be beaten. Sasha could have beaten it (I think Sarah's program was not there yet w/5 planned triples but in a month . . .). But Sasha didn't do it -- this time.

I think it's a shame we have to choose 3 out of our huge well of talent to send to worlds. But worlds isn't the only place to get international experience and appear before international judges. I'm looking forward to brilliant skates from out beautiful ladies in all sorts of venues, and as long as that's Michelle's road too, then she should be among them.

Ariadne

[loveskating]

Originally posted by joyjoy
This reminds of the 1994 Olympic games where the professional skaters were reinstated. Some people said that Brian Boitano should not have been skating since he already has a gold medal from the 1988 olympics. They said that he should give other people a chance. ...

But the fact is that Boitano did take a spot from someone. Also, If G&G and D&M hadn't reinstated, its highly likely that Canada with Brasseur & Eisler would have had the gold medal in pairs (they were 3rd as it was). Were they as good as G&G and D&M, heck no, not in my opinion, but the fact is that the reinstatement basically prevented B&E from getting that gold! As things turned out, everyone was so grateful to have seen G&G at Olympic level again...but my point is that the questions and issues are legitimate...IF you are a fan of Brasseur and Eisler!

To expect people not to raise these issues is putting your head in the sand...what Kwan is doing has consequences for the other skaters, is all. If she is willing to take that on, fine, its her choice, she has every right to do it, but don't expect their fans to adore her for it, and more especially when her tech content is considerably lower than the current field (she is certainly among the top 3 as to presentation, I'd agree).

People make raising this issue sound like some kind of terrible bashing of Michelle, as "unreasonable" when it is indeed part of the scenario! Do you HONESTLY expect that fans of other skaters are going to adore Kwan just because she got another medal? Jeeze, she already has tons of them...and do you honestly expect that fans of other skaters are not going to question why Kwan is staying in, going for the gold in Turin once again? I haven't talked to ANYONE who hasn't said, "My, she has been around a loooong time!"

It is NOT criminal to be a fan of another skater, to like another skater better, and have good reasons for it. It is not criminal to claim that Michelle Kwan has not raised her tech level in a long time, since 1999 in fact.

[GrapeSoda]

Actually, I think the letter-writer's implication that Sasha can't win a competition unless Michelle retires is far more insulting to Sasha than to Michelle. As someone who enjoys Sasha's skating very much, I have a little more faith in her than that.

[Badams]

ok...so some of you people here have a problem with michelle winning because, in your not so very humble opinions, she has not raised the technical bar. ok...fine. that's a valid comment. but who was better technically at nationals then michelle that could have possibly won? and do you think it's ok to dismiss michelle for the fact that the judges and MOST fans think she should have won? take your gripes to the judges and complain. don't blame, dismiss, insult, or diminish michelle. if sasha or sarah or irina or any other skater wins worlds, i'm not gonna sit around and stuff myself with sour grapes...

[LilRedRidingHood]

Posted by loveskating...

"People make raising this issue sound like some kind of terrible bashing of Michelle, as "unreasonable" when it is indeed part of the scenario! Do you HONESTLY expect that fans of other skaters are going to adore Kwan just because she got another medal? Jeeze, she already has tons of them...and do you honestly expect that fans of other skaters are not going to question why Kwan is staying in, going for the gold in Turin once again? I haven't talked to ANYONE who hasn't said, "My, she has been around a loooong time!""

I don't think anyone expects fans of "other skaters" to adore Michelle because she got another medal. It seems the perplexing part is why on Earth someone would want her to step aside so another skater has a "better" chance to win. Every skater that skates against Michelle has the opportunity to take her out of the medals. Ask Tara and Sarah, it's not impossible.

Posted by loveskating....
" I haven't talked to ANYONE who hasn't said, "My, she has been around a loooong time!"

Is this a bad thing? Or more like, "Jerry Rice has been playing football a loooong time." ? By the way... did anyone notice the TD pass he caught in the Superbowl? I for one, am glad the "old man" who's still getting it done hasn't retired. Seems to keep some others on their toes!

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by GrapeSoda

As someone who enjoys Sasha's skating very much, I have a little more faith in her than that.

Agreed - I shook my head when I first read what this person had to say.

However - the point of "giving others a turn" - especially when it comes to slots - is very relavant to the skaters waiting in the wings - the Ann Patrice McDonough's, Jenny Kirk's, etc. The opportunities for them are lessened when skaters at the top remain eligible for extended periods of time.

Every so often, up will come a topic that says should some skater with talent but unlikely to Worlds, should go skate for another country (there was one about AP and Yebin skating for Korea). It highlights the difficulty of allotments to stuffs such as Worlds... the USFSA does seem to find alternative events to send them to though.

What is frustrating to some, myself included - is when a top spot is occupied by a skater no longer interested in pushing their skating envelope further. A key difference between Yagudin and Kwan - Yagudin has improved and continues to want to do more. Someone is probably going to say that its folly to push yourself to the point of breaking (given Yagudin's injury woes) - but this is first a competitive sport - there are risks - and those not willing to do so (take the risks), shouldn't hold back those who could use such opportunities better.

Even Todd Eldredge at least went for the quad at the Olympics. ;)

[Badams]

ok...so say last season the USFSA said to kwan "michelle, you have been around soooooo long. it's time to let an up and comer get a shot". so they send this "up and comer" and where does this person place? is she top 5? top 10? where? say she's not high enough to allow 3 skaters at worlds this year. sasha wouldn't be going. so i think sending michelle all this time has been a good thing for "up and comers". thanks to michelle, sasha gets to go this year.

[Blue Ridge]

But the point is that if anyone else were really pushing the technical envelope more than Michelle, then they would beat her and grab that spot. If Michelle is not pushing to add more advanced technical elements, as the others get more experience if they succeed in doing so they will defeat Michelle, and then all this will be a moot point!

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by Blue Ridge

If Michelle is not pushing to add more advanced technical elements, as the others get more experience if they succeed in doing so they will defeat Michelle, and then all this will be a moot point!

That's just it - chicken and egg. The others are not going to get the big time experience of something like Worlds, until they qualify for it... and as such, you can't expect them to defeat an experienced but safe competitor easily. ;)

In the meantime, at least one slot is tied up.

Badams - in your "what if" - if Michelle didn't go, AP would have gone to Worlds. With Jenny's withdrawal from injury, Sasha would be 3rd given no Michelle, and AP would have to finish in the top 10 to get 13 points - totally within the realm of possibility that 3 spots would still be available (sans Michelle's help).

[Blue Ridge]

I don't agree that the only way to get experience is to go to Worlds.
Since we are talking about winning a medal at Nationals over Michelle, in order to go to Worlds, Worlds experience is not what this is about.

[adrianchew]

I know what you mean - but experience in all forms is valuable for learning, and bigger events have more value in terms of dealing with pressure and serious competition. There's the exposure factor on the senior international scene too.

I used Sarah as an example - let's say she was unlucky and had more serious competition back in her early days, and didn't get to go to Worlds/etc sooner. Would she have won the Olympics? International exposure counts for quite a bit too.

By the time some skaters get to the point of qualifying for Worlds/Olympics, their chances might be blown for them. Not saying they can't better, but early exposure has value in itself to get the skater known to international judges, etc - and I believe it is a considerable factor to Sarah's success in Salt Lake.

[jkrjob]

I agree with those who feel that Michelle is being singled out here (ignoring the whole re-instatement of the pros issue since it was 10 years ago and a rather different situation).

For example, Irina has been as long almost as long as Michelle (and they have stood on so many podiums together). She's been to two Olympics, won worlds, won multiple European championships, etc. So where are all the people calling for Irina to retire?

Is it because Irina is still "pushing the envelope"? Sure, two years ago Irina was pushing the envelope technically, but its been quite a while since she successfully landed any of her 3/3s or even did a 6 (clean) triple program. So, I guess she is regressing too and should hang up her skates?

Is it because Michelle has more medals so (as someone else said) another medal is not meaningful to Michelle, but more medals might be meaningful to Irina? If that is the case, then we should just force all of the successful skaters to retire!

So what is the difference between Michelle and Irina? If it were just trying 3/3s, whether one succeeds at them or not, Michelle could do that. Heck, I could do that!

FYI - I in no way think anyone, Michelle, Irina, etc., should retire. Irina was just a good example.

[Blue Ridge]

Originally posted by jkrjob

So what is the difference between Michelle and Irina?

Irina is an excellent example. I think one big difference (aside from the fact that this is mostly about people who are just tired of seeing Kwan :twisted: ) is that there isn't the same amount of talent behind Irina among the Russian ladies. However, when someone stepped up to the plate and upped the technical content wham! Irina was knocked off the top spot at Russian Nationals. And it can happen here!

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by jkrjob

Is it because Irina is still "pushing the envelope"? Sure, two years ago Irina was pushing the envelope technically, but its been quite a while since she successfully landed any of her 3/3s or even did a 6 (clean) triple program. So, I guess she is regressing too and should hang up her skates?

Actually Irina has in practices at Euros worked on 3/3/3 and 3/3/2 combos. She's actually shown us some "pushing the envelope". Major props to her.

So Irina was a pretty bad example. You'd be hard pressed to find skaters who are not increasing content year-to-year at the top levels of competition. Michelle is an exception to the norm.

[venice]

As a Michelle fan, as well as other skaters, I would like to see Michelle up the technical ante as well. But I think it is unfair to paint her as someone who doesn't try or think it's important. She did tried 3 sal/3 loops, but had to stop when she had back problems. She also tried, as well as saw last year, 3 lutz/3 loops. Agreed, she wasn't successful, but it isn't fair to say she hasn't tried. She has made attempts, the same way Sasha has made attempts. Honestly, how long should we give Sasha to land a clean 3/3? Should we tell her to pack it in if she doesn't get it by the end of the season. I don't understand this reasoning.

I think the 3/3's with loops on the end are not logical for Michelle at this point. However, she has said she is working on a new difficult sequence and was seen landing a 3 flip/3 toe at Nationals. I don't know if she'll be successful with these in competition, but at least give the girl some credit for trying.

[Emanfan]

Originally posted by adrianchew
I used Sarah as an example - let's say she was unlucky and had more serious competition back in her early days, and didn't get to go to Worlds/etc sooner. Would she have won the Olympics? International exposure counts for quite a bit too.

I'm totally missing this here. Okay, let's say Sarah had been unlucky and had more serious competition in her early days. So? In the world of athletics, that's the luck of the draw. If you want to compete in the US, you have a tough row to hoe. That's life.

Do we suggest getting rid of Plushenko and Yagudin so the rest of the Russian men can get experience? I don't hear anyone making that suggestion (or at least I haven't heard it).

[Blue Ridge]

Originally posted by adrianchew
Actually Irina has in practices at Euros worked on 3/3/3 and 3/3/2 combos.

1. Can you point me to the reports of this?, and
2. Michelle works on 3/3s in practice
I think you have to try things in competition to be pushing the envelope.

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by venice

She did tried 3 sal/3 loops, but had to stop when she had back problems. She also tried, as well as saw last year, 3 lutz/3 loops. Agreed, she wasn't successful, but it isn't fair to say she hasn't tried. She has made attempts, the same way Sasha has made attempts. Honestly, how long should we give Sasha to land a clean 3/3? Should we tell her to pack it in if she doesn't get it by the end of the season. I don't understand this reasoning.

What are the success rates for Michelle - does she have a hope of doing them? She's not shown anything in practices (at Nationals, and at Incredible Ice in Florida from sources I have) to indicate a capability of doing them at all. Sasha has consistently demonstrated being able to do the 3-lutz/3-toe in practices already.

Visibility is important - one can claim to work on combos, but if you can't show it off even in practices, its not there yet. Ann Patrice chose to show off a 3-loop/3-loop that wasn't ready to go into her program yet, but it was demonstrated.

[venice]

Hi Adrian,

I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one. The 3 sal/3 loop was done consistently in worlds practices in 2001, I think. Peggy said she was doing it well enough to put it in the competition. The 3 lutz/3 loop was witnessed by Sandra Loosemore, who said Michelle did it beautifully 3 times in a row. As for the newer things she's working on, only the 3 flip/3 toe was witnessed, but since these are easier that the loop combos, and more within Michelle's ability range, I think there is a good chance she can pull them off.

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by Blue Ridge

1. Can you point me to the reports of this?,

Actually I may have confused it with some other reports, but this is for certain - Irina did a 3-sal/3-loop/half-loop/2-sal at Russian Nats. 8-)

[adrianchew]

venice - she had worked on those (3-sal/3-loop and 3-lutz/3-toe) prior to this season. Both seemed to have disappeared by the time of 2002 US Nats... she had nothing close to either in LA.

I don't believe the 3-flip/3-toe reports until I actually hear it from a verifiable source I trust or see it myself. But yes - you're certainly free to disagree - and if Michelle brings the 3-flip/3-toe to Worlds, I will definitely report on it even if I just see it done only in practice.

[jkrjob]

Originally posted by adrianchew
Actually Irina has in practices at Euros worked on 3/3/3 and 3/3/2 combos. She's actually shown us some "pushing the envelope". Major props to her.

So Irina was a pretty bad example.

Uhm, no. I tried to make it clear that I was talking about successfully landing 3/3s or programs with 6 clean or more in competition. The fact that others are trying and not succeeding at 3/3s just doesn't cut it for me as a reason for Michelle to retire. Anyone of the top skaters can try 3/3s. Landing them cleanly at the big events is clearly another issue.

Originally posted by adrianchew
You'd be hard pressed to find skaters who are not increasing content year-to-year at the top levels of competition. Michelle is an exception to the norm.

I assume you mean "planned content" rather than not "successfully executed content". Sure Irina has maintained her planned content for the past couple of years, but what she has executed has gone down.

[michele]

Originally posted by adrianchew
Actually Irina has in practices at Euros worked on 3/3/3 and 3/3/2 combos. She's actually shown us some "pushing the envelope". Major props to her.

So Irina was a pretty bad example. You'd be hard pressed to find skaters who are not increasing content year-to-year at the top levels of competition. Michelle is an exception to the norm.

A 3-3-2 goes back to 2001 Worlds for Irina, and she hasn't seriously attempted a 3-3-3 in competition (as far as I know) so that doesn't count. I believe the 3sal/3loop which she *has* gone for recently dates back to 1995 Worlds, and her 3lutz/3loop is from three seasons ago (though I don't think she's really tried it for some time anyway).

So she's not exactly increasing content year-to-year, at least not since Vancouver if you really want to count the 3-3-2. Not to mention that unless I'm mistaken (how did she do at the pre-Olympic Russian Nats?) she hasn't landed *any* 3-3 since those Worlds.

[michele]

Originally posted by adrianchew
Actually I may have confused it with some other reports, but this is for certain - Irina did a 3-sal/3-loop/half-loop/2-sal at Russian Nats. 8-)

This season, and she lost to Elena anyway??? I'll have to find those reports again. But if she did, kudos to her.

Edited to say I found some and apparently the 3 loop wasn't clean (the 2 sal might have helped cover up the error). But without a tape we could debate this forever. :P Too bad there aren't any Russian fans to make clips for Soulseek!

[kwanette]

People keep talking about 3/3's, but the only elite lady who performed them last year with any consistancy was Sarah Hughes.

[missmarysgarden]

I can't help but comment that this "end-of-life" argument is sort of like a "euthanasia" argument - a historical one. Where some individuals or factions take it on themselves to decide that if an individual is "deficient" in some way, that they should be "removed" so that others with better stuff can take their place more quickly - sort of like greedy heirs at the bedside.

As it is now, there are rules that govern participation in "figure skating life" - whether the judges follow them or not is a separate question. Those rules govern a selection process by which skaters move up through levels of competition, and earn their right to compete. Michelle, according to the rules of "figure skating life", has earned her place among the "living skaters"... I don't understand what you are advocating, Adrian, with your "end of life argument?" You want something new and fresh? You are bored with Kwan's consistency and style and longevity? Are you saying/judging that she has reached "end of life", and therefore we should put her out of (your) misery "skating-wise"? This is a very strange point of view... I am having trouble following the logic. I really mean it when I say that it sounds like the argument for euthanasia, i.e., "Michelle winning no longer serves the good of the whole (figure skating competition) even though she is productive, and if we have to wait too long to wait for her to "end her skating life", the "heirs" will suffer, so lets just help her along by having a rule that says, "You're done!" of course, only for the good of "skating society as a whole". Not that I haven't been personally bored with a winning skater before. I was ecstatic when Katerina Witt retired - one of my least favorite competitive skaters... but I wouldn't advocate abandoning the whole concept of "freedom to compete - may the best (wo)man win" - to lay it on the line for who is best on any given day. Gosh, it would be a tragedy!!!

I hope you won't ban me for saying this, Adrian. I don't mean it as a personal attack in any way. I am just sort of confounded by the argument. And keep in mind that judges are perfectly capable of colluding if they really want to get someone out of the way. It's been done before, right?

[jkrjob]

I apologize for the spoiler. I have edited it out of my post, but I cannot remove it from the quote of my post that you have included in your post.

[Mazurka Girl]

Originally posted by Rachel
"Forward potential" is a gamble. How many "next great ones" have fallen by the wayside without hitting the top over the years? How many have gone to Worlds and crashed and burned? Whatever else the USFSA wants, you know that they want three spots on the Worlds team next year.
Like Rachel said, it comes down to the bottom line for the USFSA. I didn't like the careless information shared in the letter. Substitute the names of any number of skaters, & it would still be a poorly written commentary by someone who didn't taken the time to do their research. :roll:

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by missmarysgarden

I don't understand what you are advocating, Adrian, with your "end of life argument?" You want something new and fresh? You are bored with Kwan's consistency and style and longevity? Are you saying/judging that she has reached "end of life", and therefore we should put her out of (your) misery "skating-wise"? This is a very strange point of view... I am having trouble following the logic.

Bad choice - this is when too much work terms get into your system. In the industry I work in, EOL (End Of Life) is typically used to refer to products that are being phased out - replaced by newer models that have more capabilities. Grant you all skaters are human and not an object, but there is almost always a limit/peak that each athelete can reach.

Michelle brought back spark and fire in her skating to US Nationals this year. Even with the renewed spark and fire however, she failed to bring new capabilities. It would seem she's not capable of producing anything more than 3-toe/3-toes in competition and isn't even capable of that now.

Meantime - the younger skaters are pushing 3/3 combos and more. One can argue the consistency isn't there yet - but remember, like any new product may have teething problems - these skaters have enormous talent and potential and ability - but they may not have consistency - yet!

Remember I mentioned foresight - we are not talking about one competition or event or season even, but about the next 3-4 years. And thanks for picking up on my "end-of-life" mention - I didn't mean it in that context at all, but more in a sense of an athelete going as far as they can go (peaking) - and being surpassed by others, slowly but surely.

[IgglesII]

It is possible to defeat a dynasty. Just ask the Anaheim Angels about knocking the Yankees out of the playoffs last year in baseball.

If Sasha wants to defeat the dynasty, then Sasha needs to keep her head together from the first second to the last in her freeskate. No more mid-program errors.

Advocating that Kwan step aside in order to allow someone else their chance at the top is ludicrous - the only thing you invite in that scenario is tarnish. Tarnish in the form of being forever followed by the comment, "yeah, she won a national title, but she couldn't pull it off until Kwan retired."

If the next national champion doesn't beat Kwan to get the title, then their title is automatically cheapened.

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by IgglesII

If the next national champion doesn't beat Kwan to get the title, then their title is automatically cheapened.

Agreed - however, it seems even when others do beat Kwan (ie. Lipinski and Hughes at the Olympics) they don't get a whole lot of credit necessarily. :roll:

[michele]

Iggles - just as an example, I'd point out Shen and Zhao. I'm sure they're very happy to have finally won Worlds, but how much more would it have meant had they been able to defeat even one of S&P or B&S? If they win again (hopefully with a better performance), they'll have more World titles than S&P and equal B&S...but it still won't be the same, however good they are in their own right. And as has been pointed out, the same would go for Sasha.

Edited to ask Adrian a question (knowing his preferences in pairs)...

Let's say S&Z *had* landed the quad sal at the Olympics in their LP and skated the program of their lives (with better spins than usual to boot). Meanwhile, both S&P and B&S were cautious and missed two elements. Against all odds S&Z won. Just how much credit *would* you give them as a pair over S&P beyond having skated their very best at the Olympics? Because it's not that much different than Sarah over Michelle, IMO.

I don't mean to be argumentative - I just thought this might give a different perspective. :) But I'm going to stay off this thread now.

[duane]

i think we are kinda getting off topic here.

the jist of the letter to the NY Times is that as long as michelle competes at Nationals--locking a spot on the World and/or Olympic team--it puts "young and coming" skaters at a disadvantage. in theory, this is true. however, sasha does not fall into this "young and coming" category as the letter states. actually, sasha is perhaps now in the position where the exact argument can be made against her: that as long as she competes, sasha is putting the young and coming skaters at a disadvantage to medal at Nationals, lessening their chances to gain valuable experience on the International scene.

and, sasha failure to win the elusive National title is not because "National title-hogging Michelle wont retire". actually, sasha was in an excellent position to win not only 2003 Nationals, but 2001 and 2002 Nationals, as well as 2002 Olympics and Worlds. sarah rose to the occasion, performed to her ultimate ability, and walked away with Olympic gold in 2002. sasha didnt do so at the Olympics, at Worlds, nor at Nationals. the failure to do so has nothing to do with michelle, and this is why i find the letter ridiculous.

[nits]

If we go by the logic that Kwan should retire to give skaters like Sasha a chance, what is going to happen if Sasha continues to lose? If Sasha doesn't win GPF or Worlds, or Nationals next year, will her fans start saying that the skater that beats her needs to retire? And if Sasha DOESN'T win, is it time for HER to retire? I mean, she has had her chance, right? She's been to Nationals 3 times, Worlds once and the Olympics, yet hasn't won yet!! What about the younger, more talented skaters that have a consistent 3/3 combo. The ones that have actually landed them in competition and not on practice ice? Shouldn't Sasha retire to let them have a chance to prove to the world what they can do?
If we use this type of logic for one skater, it should apply to all, right? I'm curious as to whether most Sasha fans agree with this when it applies to Sasha's career.

[Rachel]

Originally posted by adrianchew
Bad choice - this is when too much work terms get into your system. In the industry I work in, EOL (End Of Life) is typically used to refer to products that are being phased out - replaced by newer models that have more capabilities. Grant you all skaters are human and not an object, but there is almost always a limit/peak that each athelete can reach.

Okay, let's extend this analogy. Let's say you have a new product in development, something that is going to be bigger, better, stronger, faster than the old one. But when you send the product for testing, glitches pop up. The program occasionally crashes. Alpha testers report constant nagging little problems. Nothing ever quite fully works, although what does work is really quite brilliant, even revolutionary.

Is this the time to retire your old, reliable product in a highly competitive market and send the new one out, confident that people will put up with the glitches because there is a promise of greatness there?

Only if you're Microsoft. For everyone else, there's more work that needs to be done before the new product is ready to go.

[icyboid]

Great analogy Rachel!

Y'know, with all this talk about "raising the bar" and "pushing the limits", IMHO I think the overall consistency with which a skater completes their program is a standard that better measures a skater's abilities than just their toughest combination or jump.

[cello]

Originally posted by Rachel
Only if you're Microsoft. For everyone else, there's more work that needs to be done before the new product is ready to go.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Or, you could look at it like one company produces an old reliable product and a new company produces a snazzy new but unproven product. It is up to the market to decide which one it prefers.

[Messalina]

Can I just say how much I've grown to love this thread?

But on a more on-topic note: Is anyone planning on responding to the letter in the NYX?

[mzheng]

Always love your posts.

This is a sport not a musical chair.
If newup can't beat MK then she dose not deserve a US title.
If newup want a chance to go world they should earn it just like Kwan earned hers.

Dose MK take away the world team spot from newup comers? No. she've earned it and help to earning 3 spot for US team so many years.

Dose MK help to push the technique envelop? Yes. I think the desire to beating Kwan or just skating as good as Kwan has been helping these new upcommers to perfect their skating skills. Skating is not just 3/3s right?

I'm one of the poster said that may be AP or Mok should rep South Korea. But I don't think it is MK blocked their chances. Actually I think it is SH or SC take away the world spot for AP, Mok or JK this year.

Look at this year's nats telecat and read a lot from the net. SH and SC both had been held up by the judges in SP and LP. SH more so in SP and SC more so in LP. Except the 1st ordial for MK. The 2nd, 3rd, 4th,... ordial really could well be spread in SP and LP among SC, SH, JK, MOK, AP, Amber, etc. Had the judges did thier job fairly.

When AP (7 tripples) out jumpped SC (4 tripples) then 'Figure skating is not just about jumpping. bla, bla'. Well I for one actually agree.
When SC landed 3/3s in practice while MK did not suddenly the Figure skating become all about jumpping.

adrianchew, with all the respect to your skating knowledge, I think you should at least make your comments consistant. (Hope u don't ban me for that).

Every one entitle to the preference. Some may prefer performance including envelop pushing 3/3 to the extend of butt ice landing. I for one prefer a perfect clean, flow, well balanced program so that I can enjoy the performance of the skater without worry about falling of the skater.

There was report she's been practice 3/3s may be just because it is not consistant enough to put in program yet. In her early years with Frank it was said if she can't land a jump 80% or 90% in practice the jump will not be included in her program. I think Frank did wonderful job with MK. I believe it still influnces her work. if you can't do things consistant and perfect don't put in your program. It is also a work ethic to be responsible to the audiance. The audiance are not pay to watch a splashfest just like this year's men's final group comp.

Oh, may be out of topic, for one with Chineses heritege I would say may be she'd show the working rather than talking. You don't need practicing 3/3s in Nats public practice session if you have no intension to include them in your program unless you want fish some credit from the judges. I guess this is what most of new upcommers doing.

Rachel I love your Microsoft analog very much. Never liked the Microsoft. I as a one in the industry would never put a new version in production without it fully passed functionality, performance, reliability/consistance testing. I'd rather remain the old version in production.

[kwanette]

I wrote a letter to the NYT.

[kwanette]

Sasha didn't compete at the 01 Nats;she had a back injury, I believe.

[rack]

I did the original posting of the letter and have kept out of things ever since, but one notion that has repeatedly shown up here bothers me enough to throw my two cents in.

Someday someone is going to win a Nationals that Michelle does not compete in, and the odds are that skater won't care one bit that she didn't defeat Michelle to gain the title. She will still be U.S. Champion and that is what she will have been striving for, not defeating a specific rival.

No one expected Michael Weiss to say his championship meant just a little less because he didn't defeat Todd Eldredge. No one expected Scott and Dulebohn to downplay their first Nationals championship because Ina and Zimmerman weren't there. Whoever wins mens Worlds this year won't say, "Ah but it would have meant so much more if only Yagudin had been here."

If someone asks this theoretical US ladies champion whether the victory is lessened by the lack of Michelle Kwan, she will reply, "I had to defeat many of the best skaters in the world to win this championship. The sport of skating is greater than any one athlete."

And Theoretical Champion will be right.

[loveskating]

Originally posted by LilRedRidingHood
I don't think anyone expects fans of "other skaters" to adore Michelle because she got another medal. It seems the perplexing part is why on Earth someone would want her to step aside so another skater has a "better" chance to win. Every skater that skates against Michelle has the opportunity to take her out of the medals. Ask Tara and Sarah, it's not impossible.

But the point of the letter was not that Michelle SHOULD step aside, the point of the letter was WHY is Kwan still skating, when there are other skaters in the USA who are better than she is (I understand Kwan fans would dispute that latter point, but that, nevertheless, is the POV of the letter and technically, it is certainly true, IMHO; I agree with the writer that Sasha is "artistically brilliant" and IMHO Sasha has surpassed, in general, Kwan on the presentation aspect, although I don't dispute the marks at Nationals and I certainly think Sarah is technically considerably better than Michelle in general).

I've talked to people who believe Kwan is staying in to take the glory from Sarah, to rain on Sarah's parade, out of revenge or something! I don't agree with that, but if anyone doesn't think this is part of the scenario, they are mistaken.

Speaking to another post, I don't think Stojko stayed in because he "loved to compete". IMHO, he stayed in to KEEP the spots for Canada hoping others would mature into that capacity, so it was an entirely different scenario for him...and although I didn't enjoy seeing him in decline, I thought it was noble of him.

The scenario Kwan epitomizes is probably more like that of Todd Eldredge...he wanted a shot at the gold, despite the fact that he did not have a quad and was not likely to have one...yet it differs in important ways as well.

All this about Sasha not ever beating Michelle is irrelevent to this discussion; what is NEW here is not that, but the fact skaters like Sarah and Kwan are staying in after (1) winning Olympic gold; (2) dominating the sport for 8 years. Just as it was not known what the pro ams would do, it is also not known what this sort of "longevity" will do to the sport, and I submit it will do it no good whatsoever, to the contrary.

But Sarah has actually IMPROVED since SLC, IMHO; her split falling leaf was great, and other aspects I've criticized were much improved as well...but I saw nothing different except Morosov footwork from Michelle, and in that respect, clearly, Kwan was being pushed by Sasha, I don't care WHO won! Obviously, in changing her footwork from Skate America and obtaining Morosov's services, she sought to compete with Sasha on the footwork!

More importantly, Todd never had the role in the sport that Kwan has, i.e. Kwan is a SEMINAL skater, someone who changed the sport forever, which is BOTH a glory and a responsiblity! Personally, seeing her stay in for reasons I cannot fathom is upsetting to me...I refrain from speculating, but confess that I cannot think of any good reasons.

[Badams]

this thread is beyond ridiculous and it's sick that it's still open. here we are, FANS AND NOTHING ELSE, crying, complaining, etc...because skaters don't do what WE think they should do. well BOO HOO!!! it's not up to us and the skaters owe us nothing. if they want to sakte till they are old and grey there's nothing any of us can do about it. and the letter in the paper is one feeble mind's opinion...and you know what they say about opinions. why are we all up in arms about it? my god people, move on. nationals are OVER!!! michelle won. she may win again. when somebody better comes along to beat her...that's what will happen. and WE HAVE NO CONTROL OVER THAT!!! just think of it this way...next competition will another excuse for non-kwan fans to insult her endlessly (which we all know you love to do) and for kwan fans to defend her endlessly (which we all know you love to do). the same goes for any skater. same words...different competition.

[Blue Ridge]

But Badams, that's what figure skating discussion boards are for! ;)

[missmarysgarden]

Badams, I agree with you. Skaters have a right to stay in until the cows come home. Live with it! You skater's time will come, or it won't. If anyone wants Kwan out, all they have to do is step up to the plate!

Also, keep in mind that all Michelle did was take the gold at Nationals. She didn't keep Sara or Sasha from going to Worlds...it didn't hold them back. They have another crack at it, and maybe one of them will win. Neither Michelle nor anyone else has an obligation to open the door - the young skaters need to show they have the stuff to open it themselves!

Those of us who love skating in general, prefer certain styles, value certain techniques, and root for certain skaters - are ALWAYS going to be in conflict over competition results. It just feels so darn good when what you admire, what makes your heart pump, wears the gold. It's like when your favorite team wins, or your child gets the lead in the play, or your favorite movie wins the Oscar!! And its so darn disappointing when you spend weeks in anticipation, full of hope and excitement, and you are let down instead of buoyed up. Give em all a break. Your time to cheer will come. My time will come. Everybody's time will come eventually. Skaters with more consistency provide their fans with more frequent thrills! Some fans have to settle for that once in a lifetime exquisite moment - so do some skaters. Enjoy it all already!!! You aren't the skater, you are just the fan!

[Mazurka Girl]

Originally posted by Badams
this thread is beyond ridiculous and it's sick that it's still open.
I appreciate your candor Badams :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Mazurka Girl]

Originally posted by loveskating
I've talked to people who believe Kwan is staying in to take the glory from Sarah, to rain on Sarah's parade, out of revenge or something! I don't agree with that, but if anyone doesn't think this is part of the scenario, they are mistaken.
Nationals was in Dallas this year.
Conspiracy theorists were needed. :twisted: :roll: :twisted:

[Chilly Penguin]

Originally posted by loveskating
But the point of the letter was not that Michelle SHOULD step aside, the point of the letter was WHY is Kwan still skating, when there are other skaters in the USA who are better than she is

Are they better? Then why does she continue to win? When she isn't better, she doesn't win: SLC for example. Worlds 2002 another example. So what's the problem?

[Cryssania]

I find that whole "Michelle should move on argument" to be directing negativity and frustration in the wrong direction.

She should be able to compete as long as she wants. The opportunities for younger skaters are only created when they skate better than her, not because of default that she has left Nationals.

You could see by marks given to Sasha (which I think were GIFTS), that they were just ITCHING SCRATCHING to give the title to her, but she didn't have it. She was off.

If anything, comments should be directed at the ISU for having the 3 per country rule. This rule was never applied to pro tennis and the US has never always dominated in those disciplines. Or maybe there should be a Grand Prix circuit that's a little larger than six events? There has to be ways of increasing the number of high profile competitions given the increased interest that many countries are now taking in figure skating.

Michelle, you go for the 10th National Title. I hope you break Maribel Vinson Owen's record :) :o :lol: :)

[LilRedRidingHood]

As a Product Manager, who earned my position by effort, not retirement of other Product Managers, I can honestly say I agree with the product development analogy and find it quite relevant. I am responsible for ensuring to my organization that my product functions exceptionally not just on the development server (which could be compared to the practice ice) but also in a marketplace production environment (which might be compared to the competition ice). I don't get raises or promotions when my product lands a triple-triple on a dev server, and my competition is not impacted by what my product can do ( triple triple) until it lands it on the production server.

As to "why" MK is still in..... like every other elite athlete, I would suspect because she wants to be and has a right to be? I certainly don't expect Shaquille O'Neill to retire so there is room on a roster somewhere for LeBron James. [ Who is the number one ranked college prep basketball player in the nation. ]

I'm sure that bored most of you to tears, so I'll close with:

Originally posted by loveskating

I've talked to people who believe Kwan is staying in to take the glory from Sarah, to rain on Sarah's parade, out of revenge or something! I don't agree with that, but if anyone doesn't think this is part of the scenario, they are mistaken.

All this about Sasha not ever beating Michelle is irrelevent to this discussion; what is NEW here is not that, but the fact skaters like Sarah and Kwan are staying in after (1) winning Olympic gold; (2) dominating the sport for 8 years. Just as it was not known what the pro ams would do, it is also not known what this sort of "longevity" will do to the sport, and I submit it will do it no good whatsoever, to the contrary.



I think that these two paragraphs are my cue to check out of the discussion.

MissMary- I think your post pretty much sums it up for me! Thanks!

[adrianchew]

Well since its been requested - I'll put the topic to sleep now.