Statement - Navarro & Shmalo

[SkaterBrett]

Hey Everyone,

Kimberly Navarro & Robert Shmalo have released an official statement on their web site.

http://www.navarro-shmalo.com

Take Care,
Brett Barden

[iceskater2]

I do not think I have ever been more touched by anything I have read.

[IgglesII]

That has to be one of the most naive things I've ever read. Naive in thinking that they still have decisions to make about their "competitive careers."

This isn't a burning bridge, it's an inferno.

They want an explanation? Here's my completely inexpert opinion - lousy results at internationals are going to land you lousy results at Nationals. They're right - it is about funding and international assignments, and the USFSA isn't going to keep funding and paying to send overseas a team that the international judges have soundly rejected.

[what?meworry?]

igglesII

lousey? bad?

think about this. usfsa judges advised them, encouraged them. ok. real world says you still gotta be so good that they have to give it to you.

i first will say that this is a favorite team of mine in that i love their "to hell with it we love ice dance attitude" and their performance quality. i don't actually expect them to be #1 but they've got one hell of a lot of showmanship and furture.

in freeskating, michele and todd and most recently, timmy g. suffered setbacks but still carried on with style and grace.

it's harder for dancers to handle such setbacks because it's such a long hard road up to start wth.

but, i hope they take time to contemplate their value, which is significant, and talent in style and presentation, and choose to come roaring back.

kim, i remember you skating with your arm in a cast in novice. you got guts. rob, you entered dance late but are a fine performer. don't let the turkeys get you down. you know you are talented. you know you may not ever win it all but your love of ice dance can transcend this setback.

and you can be an inspiration to a lot of up-and-coming dancers (and we really need that) to persevere and be the best they can be (trite as it may read) within their chosen sport.

geez, i sound so gorpy. but i must encourage these guys, they're so
real.

[Anjelica]

Skating is a tough sport guys and nothing comes easily in it. Especially ice dancing can break your heart IF YOU LET IT!

[what?meworry?]

it will break your heart only if you give up. so don't!

you know you're passionate for the dance. you can overcome the setbacks by ignoring the judging quirks and just persevering. needing the approval of others will hurt you. belief in yourselves and a desire to compete and create new programs will drive you on.

so don't pay attention to the "sayers" and just do what you know is best for you as a team.

a very wise saying: if it doesn't kill you, it makes you stronger!

so, go for it and judges be damned.

[CarolineBingley]

I waited two years to finally get the chance to see you skate! Was it worth it? YES!!!! Whatever you decide to do, I wish you the best. For my sake and those who have yet to enjoy your skating, I hope to see you stick it out just a little bit longer!

CB

[Trillian]

Originally posted by New Yorker
And why should we single them out for "lousy" results when every other senior team (except the top 2) that has had international experience this season has turned in similar, if not worse, results?

Well, there's the problem. N&S have done two of the "minor" internationals and finished 9th and 13th respectively, while Nussear & Gates and Goodwin & Obzansky both managed to medal in similar events this season. Galler-Rabinowitz & Mitchell, meanwhile, have been one of the top teams on the junior circuit. For that reason alone I figured N&S were going to have a hard team beating any of these teams at nationals, so their overall placement was not bad at all IMO. Otoh, I also knew months before nationals that neither N&G or G&O was likely to last into next season, so I guess you have to weigh things--do we want to push a team capable of medaling internationally, or one that might be around this time next year? However, regardless, it's really not fair to pretend that N&S have finished as well internationally as several of the other teams they were closely competing against at nationals, because that just isn't the case. I like their skating, and I've been, frankly, a little surprised they haven't done better internationally, but that doesn't mean I haven't seen what's happened.

[quark]

Originally posted by what?meworry?
so, go for it and judges be damned. "If winning is not important, then commander, why keep score?" (Worf and Riker, "11001001", stardate 41365.9)

[butterfly]

Originally posted by Trillian
Otoh, I also knew months before nationals that neither N&G or G&O was likely to last into next season, so I guess you have to weigh things--do we want to push a team capable of medaling internationally, or one that might be around this time next year? If this reasoning be true what value is any competition. Are the judges to make a decision based on the rumor mill and how committed a partnership may or may not be before they judge their skating ability. In this ever unpredictable skating world how can we use an uncertain judgement of their commitment level to judge their raw dance talent and immediate performance. It would be refreshing to see the outcome of just judging excellence. Otherwise, we need to add another set of scores "technical", "presentation", and oh yeah "commitment". Has anyone ever thought that reward for performance might bring about commitment?

Why can't we "push" a team because they have talent and have performed well. Sounds too simple I guess, but it might be worth a try. It has been over 15 years since the US has had any dance team on the world podium so whatever criteria we are using for "pushing" our teams it is not succeeding.

[quark]

Originally posted by New Yorker
How are we supposed to expect good results of them at internationals when they haven't even been given the opportunity to go to internationals before?Are you saying that ice dancers don't place according to program quality and performance, but exposure to international judging? Big surprise! :roll:

[what?meworry?]

darn...i just tossed my star trek books...oh well.

in skating somebody wins and everybody else ranks. but if winning or getting a specific ranking is what you skate for, you're just letting other people control you through your neediness for "official" recognition. if your strength comes from inner motivation and love of the sport and you are able to recognize how well you did compared to your previous skating skill levels, you can handle these setbacks and use them as a "learning experience" (ugh, sorry).

so, if it don't kill ya, it makes ya stronger.

we're not klingons and we don't kill the losers (roman gladiators come to mind here, too). klingon philosophy is that competition is a "zero-sum" game (you win and someone loses---tennis, basketball, football, etc.).

ice dance is sort of a "win-win" game in that there is a ranking (like golf, track) and not a "loser." you can say that you "win" whenever you've improved your skills in relation to long-term goals. this is a "developmental process" and ice dance is really long term. one single competition only tells you where you are now relative to how you skated before (your the judge here) and relative to the other players currrently around you (the judges are the judges here). and, your rank is part of the feedback and you use that among other things to evaluate your progress. but rank is only relative to the group of competitors of the moment.

for navarro/shmalo i'd suggest that you really got a lot better in your personal skating because of the encouragement and suggestions you received. and, you felt you skated your best to date (look at the 5th place fd finish). take a look at trillians commentary in the perspective of this season, culminating at nationals and the relativity of rankings.

if you take this season and build upon it, you've taken control of your own long-term skating career.

[SkateGuard]

N&S have done two of the "minor" internationals and finished 9th and 13th respectively

Here's my question: both are full-time college students, so why were they not named to World University Games? Unfortunately, they are extremely disappointed by their Nationals results.

According to the reports, their compulsories were just terrible. I heard a rumor that Kim was sick right before the CD's, so that might be an explanation. However, they placed right behind two teams (Gibbons/Pekarek and Manon/Shalin) coached by Liz Coates, who is really a compulsory dance expert (she's the one who helped L/T develop their awesome compulsories)...that could also have been a factor, since N/S easily beat these teams in the OD and FD. Is there anyone who saw the competition live who agrees/disagrees with their placements?

do we want to push a team capable of medaling internationally, or one that might be around this time next year?

April, this is a great question, one that I have been wondering for years. Personally, I think stability of partnership _should_ be a factor in team envelopes, etc., especially in ice dance, where it takes years to develop a solid international reputation. But the team who will most likely get the push from the USFSA is GR/M, who have both a strong international reputation in the junior ranks and a longtime partnership--five years. And they placed fourth at Nationals.

I was not suprised by N/S's placement at Nationals (except the CD's, but see above)...I thought that after third place, the dance event was a wide open field, as evidenced by the ordinals and placements for each stage of the competition. It's just too bad that a competitive Nationals has created yet another casualty....

Erin

[Trillian]

Originally posted by SkateGuard
Here's my question: both are full-time college students, so why were they not named to World University Games?

Perhaps they didn't want to go? Competing in that event would have meant withdrawing from nationals, as Angie Lien did. In her case it was really a matter of missing out on the experience since she was highly unlikely to do well enough to qualify for international assignments next year. In the case of N&S, it would have meant missing out on maintaining the national ranking that almost definitely would/will get them internationals next year.

Incidentally, when all is said and done, N&S and Gibbons & Pekarek may wind up as the only remaining teams outside the top four. Sure, the field was very strong this year, but now it's pretty much on the verge of collapsing and that's going to put N&S in a very strong position. They will definitely get an international or two next year if they stick around, and unless things pick up quickly they probably won't do badly at nationals either. It may look like they're getting shoved behind all the newer teams, but if they just stick with it, they'll probably wind up as the last team standing among this second tier group. Look how long it took Handra & Sinek, after all. It's just a matter of whether they want to put the rest of their lives on hold to pursue that, especially when things look so discouraging right now.

[IgglesII]

Originally posted by SkateGuard
But the team who will most likely get the push from the USFSA is GR/M, who have both a strong international reputation in the junior ranks and a longtime partnership--five years. And they placed fourth at Nationals.


Not to mention a novice-level AND a junior-level national championship on their resume.

Plus another factor in GR/M's favor, that I'd be curious about in regard to N/S. The coaches. Loren & David's coaches, Barett Brown &Tom Lescinski, are previous winners of the USFSA Developmental Coach of the Year award...I would hazard a guess that as previous USFSA award winners and with their connection to the Skating Club of Boston, that these two are very involved with the job of *promoting* their skaters to officials, judges, sponsors, etc.

How much reaching out to the skating community did N/S's coach do on their behalf? And where was this coach when this declaration was being posted online? Unless they've made the decision to give up skating, this is the type of thing that should have been aired privately to a judge or an official, not aired publicly where it could have the effect of burning bridges.

[butterfly]

Originally posted by IgglesII
Not to mention a novice-level AND a junior-level national championship on their resume.

Plus another factor in GR/M's favor, that I'd be curious about in regard to N/S. The coaches. Loren & David's coaches, Barett Brown &Tom Lescinski, are previous winners of the USFSA Developmental Coach of the Year award...I would hazard a guess that as previous USFSA award winners and with their connection to the Skating Club of Boston, that these two are very involved with the job of *promoting* their skaters to officials, judges, sponsors, etc.

How much reaching out to the skating community did N/S's coach do on their behalf? And where was this coach when this declaration was being posted online? Unless they've made the decision to give up skating, this is the type of thing that should have been aired privately to a judge or an official, not aired publicly where it could have the effect of burning bridges. Oh this really steams me. So now lets add to the odds of winning how your coach promotes you to officials, judges, and sponsors. Now just what does that have to do with talent, and hard work. Are we now talking about smooozing to win. I am as naive as a stick. I thought it was about talent. Silly me. As far as airing your feelings or asking permission to state a position, maybe they took a risk of offending, but I say they had little to lose and it is about time someone brought fresh air to this very sick sport. I'm sure that if they had aired this to a coach or judge privately that would have accomplished absolutely nothing. I am making no judgments on their abilities, or even if they were judged fairly. I do not know this team but I do defend their right to bring the dirty laundry out of the closet.

As far as GR/M they are a cute little team and they have a classic look but their choreography is simple. They will be challenged.

[butterfly]

Originally posted by what?meworry?
in skating somebody wins and everybody else ranks. but if winning or getting a specific ranking is what you skate for, you're just letting other people control you through your neediness for "official" recognition. if your strength comes from inner motivation and love of the sport and you are able to recognize how well you did compared to your previous skating skill levels, you can handle these setbacks and use them as a "learning experience" (ugh, sorry).

ice dance is sort of a "win-win" game in that there is a ranking (like golf, track) and not a "loser." you can say that you "win" whenever you've improved your skills in relation to long-term goals. this is a "developmental process" and ice dance is really long term. one single competition only tells you where you are now relative to how you skated before (your the judge here) and relative to the other players currrently around you (the judges are the judges here). and, your rank is part of the feedback and you use that among other things to evaluate your progress. but rank is only relative to the group of competitors of the moment.

if you take this season and build upon it, you've taken control of your own long-term skating career. :roll: I am sure I would be joined by many other competitors who find this psycho babble far from the real world. The bottom line is they want to be the best and win the top prize. Just like Tanith and Ben wanted to beat Naomi and Peter's butts this year. And in the real world some of the competitors get smart and go on with their life and others stick around for more challenge and punishment and on rare occasions reward.

[Louis]

Originally posted by SkateGuard

According to the reports, their compulsories were just terrible. I heard a rumor that Kim was sick right before the CD's, so that might be an explanation. However, they placed right behind two teams (Gibbons/Pekarek and Manon/Shalin) coached by Liz Coates, who is really a compulsory dance expert (she's the one who helped L/T develop their awesome compulsories)...that could also have been a factor, since N/S easily beat these teams in the OD and FD. Is there anyone who saw the competition live who agrees/disagrees with their placements?

I couldn't figure out what happened in the Quickstep to produce such a widely split panel. I've never seen anything like it in dance before -- 4.0 to 5.1 on technique! Was there a mistake that only half of the panel saw? I didn't see a mistake, but I am not an expert on compulsory dances by any stretch of the imagination. The Tango Romantica was just plain terrible -- sloppy, all kinds of pushing and pulling, etc. It didn't even look like the same dance that the other teams were skating. Anyone would be hard-pressed to justify a placement higher than 10th in the TR.

All in all, I thought N&S were judged fairly. I was happy that the judges allowed them to move up in each phase of the competition and didn't let the low finish in the CDs influence the judging of the OD and FD.

[icemeltz]

Let’s take the ice out of our veins for just a minute here. When reading the statement by Navarro & Shmalo the impression is total honesty and heartfelt sincerity. It seems that they were perhaps responding to many of the threads on these bulletin boards concerning rumors they are retiring, changing partners, or some other misstatements made on the threads. They specifically claim that their statement is NOT in response to the manner in which they were judged. “This statement is by no means intended to be a response to our final placement at Nationals.”

With the ice still out of our veins perhaps some phrases were taken out of context. Words like American and elite, for example. Yes, they are Americans (on one thread a while back someone wondered what country Shmalo was from.). I doubt that this was a statement against any teams that are made up of bi-country partners...just a statement that they feel American (they do live in NYC and were there during 9/11)and want to represent their country at international events. At least, that is how I interpreted it. Yes, they do go to elite universities and have obviously juggled school and skating. But, can we say from reading the entire statement that they were rubbing our noses in it? I don’t think so. I think that what they are saying is that they have been able to do both and would love to be able to continue doing both.

Now, I’ll be straightforward and honest. I didn’t see N & S skate at Nationals, I wasn’t in Dallas and they weren’t shown on television. I did catch them on Lifetime in December though, and heard Susie Wynn speak quite highly of them and their potential. I am only responding to the threads made in response to what I felt was an honest evaluation by the team of their emotions...nothing else.

But, I have some questions and this might just be the place to get them answered. In their statement they said, “It is ...impossible for us to ignore our results when they are directly linked to ...funding...” What does that mean? Does the USFSA provide monetary encouragement to teams according to their placements? Assuming that is true, I would want to ask another question. How many teams have stayed together in the last few years? Has the USFSA given money to teams who have used it and then split? Does the USFSA provide monetary encouragement to teams who have proven their togetherness and stick-to-it-ive-ness? Let’s look at this for a second. How many senior ice dance teams have been together for 3-4 years? Perhaps if money is given to a team shouldn’t something other than placements alone be used to decide that? Maybe there is something in N & S’s statement that is subtly asking that question.

From my standpoint, as a TV viewer, I see the USFSA promoting education with such things as their scholar athletes awards. But, couldn’t that come back and work against a skater too. N & S go to school and skate. In fact, Rob will soon become an attorney and Kim will be a junior in college. Handling undergraduate school and law school and skating must have been an amazingly arduous task, not to mention costly, but one they chose. After Rob becomes an attorney will he be able to juggle a career and skating? I think this is something that just might be going through the minds of the powers that be, if not Rob’s. Their statement clearly indicates that they would like to continue to reach for BOTH their skating goals and their career goals. Should it be decided that this team isn’t going to be viable when they finish school and start careers without giving them the chance to show if they can handle it? So are their multiple goals really coming back to hurt them in the eyes of the powers that be?

Last point before you all put the ice back into your veins. If the compulsory dances are worth 10% each and most times teams remain at the positions they are given during the compulsory dances then aren’t the compulsory dances really being given a lot more than 20% of the total score. Let’s imagine that N & S skatied their Free Dance first...would their CD scores have been so low? Just asking.

Now beat up on me...but leave the Navarro/Shmalo statement alone. It was sincere, brave, and hopefully a truly cathartic experience for them...and possibly an eye-opener for others. It certainly sent my thoughts into overdrive!!!

[what?meworry?]

Originally posted by butterfly
:roll: I am sure I would be joined by many other competitors who find this psycho babble far from the real world. The bottom line is they want to be the best and win the top prize. Just like Tanith and Ben wanted to beat Naomi and Peter's butts this year. And in the real world some of the competitors get smart and go on with their life and others stick around for more challenge and punishment and on rare occasions reward.

you have just proven my premise...

i would suggest that because tanith wanted to beat naomi/peter so much, and after the od she knew they actually could if they skated their best, is the very reason they messed up as much as they did. i've never seen them make so many mistakes.

more psycho-babble can be found on the bookshelves of major bookstores everywhere. the message is universally the same among elite athletes---talent, an inner drive, an attention to details, the ability to learn from failure, the determination to persevere in the face of failure, and an age-appropriate developmental process, and a bit of luck.

learning to deal with adversity and come back strong is an incredibly valuable life lesson. skaters leave the competitive field when it is no longer valuable to them. but if a competitor still sees valuable experiences in training/performing/competing, outside negative factors should be ignored and the inner desire to continue, with focus on improvement, should be honored.

by the way, n/g fell on the tango romantica and while n/s weren't very solid on this dance, their quickstep was just fine. fyi, at lake placid and in the initial round for junior nationals, the judges do see the freedance first. maybe that's the way all competitions should be ordered!

[SkateGuard]

Originally posted by what?meworry?
by the way, n/g fell on the tango romantica and while n/s weren't very solid on this dance, their quickstep was just fine.

So where would you have placed N/S after the CD's and why?

I have no idea because ABC/ESPN/ESPN2/Lifetime/ABCFamily/Disney cannot seem to find the air time to show the CD's. :roll:

Erin

[SkaterBrett]

I think what has everyone confused about is in the first compulsory dance, N/S received marks in technical from 4.1 - 5.1 and ordinals from 10th - 4th..... If judges are judging properly they should be similar but why the spread??? I hear that it wasn't that bad of a skate....

In the second compulsory once again... they received marks from 3.7 - 4.6 in technical... why such a wide spread??? now the ordinals are similar except one judge has them in 7th and another in 9th... I hear this skate wasn't the best... people reported that it looked like the first compulsory had their nerves flying high....

In the OD marks weren't as wide spread... 4.5 - 5.0 for technical.. but the ordinals were soooo wide spread... 9th - 5th...

The Free dance was wide spread... 4.5 - 5.1 for technical... ordinals from 6th - 4th

If you look at the other skaters who are above them (just a few placements), their presentation marks are very wide spread).. The team who finished 4th in the Free Dance ... pres marks from 4.9 to 5.6... huh???? Crazy...

I think ice dance should be judged with one set of marks... Required Elements! In that matter, I think all skating should be judged with one set of marks, the required elements... often times, in many many many cases, those presentation marks is what saves the skaters... I consider those to be gimmie marks by the judges to determine the placement... or keep the two set of marks and have presentation weighed less and announced first...

[Anjelica]

The place for these questions is not on the internet it is for the judges who gave the marks. If I was Kim or Robert and I really cared about all this; I would personally contact every judge on the panel and ask for feedback. I have always found judges MORE than delighted to share their opinions and give help and feedback. Then you can learn something valuable from this whole experience. Sorry I don't even know who coaches this team but with no offense to anyone intended I also would consider a coaching change. And I did feel that G-R/M deserved 4th place if not higher - loved them!

[what?meworry?]

but the judges often simply justify their own marks and the skater(s) end up chasing their tails to comply with the widely differing commentary.

i still say they just look inside and be true to themselves as a team. skate harder, faster, better---but on your standards.

ok, so these guys are not likely to be senior national champions, go to the olympics and win the gold. but, damn, they're really good. and they've stood strong over the years they've competed together to present eloquent, intrigueing, programs!

this nationals, junior and senior had wildly differing judges marks. i'm naive enough to think this is good. they aren't predetermining the results.

so, i say again, judges be damned. if you like the thrill of performance and want to work toward your own personal improvement, why, just carry on!

you guys are among my personal favorites, for what it's worth, and i would miss your freedom and joy of performance if you choose to retire.

please consider staying.

[butterfly]

If anyone is interested, Sandra Loosemore has her reports on Nationals up on her webpage and she thought N/S did well in their free dance. She thought they should have placed above G-R/M. I respect her opinion and extreme honesty.

http://www.frogsonice.com/skateweb

[what?meworry?]

Originally posted by SkateGuard
So where would you have placed N/S after the CD's and why?

I have no idea because ABC/ESPN/ESPN2/Lifetime/ABCFamily/Disney cannot seem to find the air time to show the CD's. :roll:

Erin

i'm not that smart in the details of compulsories. all i know is that n/g fell, and while n/s were not confident in the tango ro., there were relative good in the quickstep.

i think nussear/gates were highly over rated and suspect that this overranking was because it was known they were splitting and that emilie was planning to partner up with brandon forsythe. thus, setting the stage for the new team of nussear/forsythe to have a shot at the olympics in 2006.

i know this is mostly a flight of fantasy, but it makes some sense, if you think about it.

[speedy]

I appreciate their willingness to share their feelings with the world on how dismayed they were with Nationals, but I fail to see what their comments about being born and raised U.S. citizens, as well as being full-time students at two elite academic institutions have to do with their placements in Dallas. It comes off, maybe unintentionally, as derogatory towards other U.S. teams, as well as skaters that aren't privileged enough to attend such elite institutions. Unfortunately in skating it's hard to have it both ways...if you want to be an elite skater, you're probably not going to be able to devote a lot of time to becoming a lawyer. I would think that would be common knowledge when you decide to start competing at the upper levels of the sport. Elite skating is a full-time job in itself, even for "one-season" teams. Other skaters have and are reaching the podium as college students and graduates, so it's not impossible to do both. That however seems to be a totally separate issue from the fact that the judges did not place them higher than they expected.