Do 2 footed jumps count?

[loveskating]

Oksana Baiul two footed her lutz in the SP at the Olympics in 1994 -- the jump counted, she was SECOND to Kerrigan in the SP.

MIchelle Kwan two footed her lutz. and flutzed in the SP at 2001 Worlds, she was in 3rd place in the SP heading into the LP (which she won).

A two footed jump COUNTS, but gets a deduction in the SP and not as much credit in the LP. Even Peggy has said so many times, with respect to many skaters, including Fumie, Jenny etc.

A two footed jump counts as badly done, whereas for a splat you either get the full deduction in the SP or no credit whatsoever in the LP.

Same goes for a flutz, under rotation, wrap, bad landing...the jump counts.

[icenut84]

Originally posted by loveskating
MIchelle Kwan two footed her lutz. and flutzed in the SP at 2001 Worlds, she was in 3rd place in the SP heading into the LP (which she won).

I thought she was second going into the LP?

[Louis]

There is a passage in the rulebook that says no jump commenced or landed on two feet should be marked in the free skate. Some people will use this rule as evidence that two-footed jumps in the free skate should not count, but I believe the intent of this rule is actually to prevent backflips and other acrobatic moves. Depending on the nature of the two-foot, a skater may receive partial credit for a two-footed jump in the free skate.

[Spider68]

It's not "counted" so much as a deduction is to be taken (depending on the degree of the infraction). I believe the "counting" applies when one is determining if the jump was COMPLETED, e.g. first to complete a quad-whatever.

[Ellyn]

I think the intention of the rule is to prevent skaters from getting credit for jumps that they clearly are unable to complete successfully.

If you watch skaters who are still in the process of learning a new jump, it's very common to go through a period when every single attempt lands on both feet with half or more of the skater's weight over the "wrong" foot. Usually the rotation is not complete either. A skater who can't do better than that doesn't "have" that jump yet and shouldn't be attempting it in competition.

Occasionally skaters who have mastered a jump will mistime it competition and end up landing on two feet. Whoops. Too bad, missed it that time, but next time it might go back to being landed correctly. (Same with a skater who falls on a jump that s/he can land cleanly at least some of the time.)

I don't consider this the same kind of mistake as landing fully rotated on the back outside edge with almost all the weight over that foot and just incidentally tapping the other toe on the ice for a split second. That's what's called a "touchdown," not "landed on two feet," and it will get partial credit in the long program.

The deduction in the short program for landing "on two feet" is 0.3 and for a touchdown is 0.1-0.2. Of course, if the jump is also underrotated, there might be an additional deduction as well that could add up to the maximum of 0.4.

[loveskating]

[B]"The deduction in the short program for landing "on two feet" is 0.3 and for a touchdown is 0.1-0.2. Of course, if the jump is also underrotated, there might be an additional deduction as well that could add up to the maximum of 0.4."[/B

That's my understanding as well... many two footed jumps I've seen are merely a touchdown, and in some cases, the blade scratches the ice on the FRONT as it comes around and then the jump is not marked as a splat would be, but rather in the area of a .01-0.2 in the SP...and how this works in the LP is at this point fairly discretionary by the judge but it aint gonna be marked "well done" (I guess unless that's the best that is executed in that particular flight of skaters, keeping in mind that competitions go on all over the place at all levels?) or the judge will face some criticism in the meeting afterwards.

Also, aside from being underotated, which can cause the 2 footed landing, I guess the jump could also be flutzed or lipped, etc. so additional deductions can add up severely.

The two footed jumps I cited, Oksana's lutz in the SP at the Olympics and Kwan's lutz in the SP at 2001 Worlds were touch downs, IMHO. An example of scratching the ice with the free leg, not a touch down per se, is Sasha Cohen's second lutz in her LP at 2000 Nationals...and all would be in the area of these smaller deductions you cite.

[Lee]

In the short program though, you're not going to see more than one deduction per element. For example, in a combination, you won't see a 0.4 for a fall on the second jump, PLUS a 0.2 for a 2-footed landing. Max deduction will be 0.4.

[Ellyn]

You won't see a deduction of more than 0.4 for the same element, but you might indeed see more than one deduction for the same element.

Suppose the skater does a 3flutz, double three, 2toe with a touchdown on the second landing. That's three errors each of which requires a deduction of 0.1 or 0.2. Add them up, and the skater will get deductions of 0.3 or 0.4 for that element, but not 0.5 or 0.6 even if the flutz and the touchdown are severe.

[Lee]

Okay...what I meant is just what Ellyn said...the 'total' deductions for any element won't be any higher than the 0.4 for a botched element. 0.5's are reserved for those elements completely omitted or not attempted.

[Marco]

Isn't landing on 2 feet different from landing with a slight touch down from the free foot?

In the free skate, jumps landed on 2 feet don't really count right? (Oksana's 3flip from 1994 OLY FS and 99% of Elena Liashenko's 3loops) On the other hand, a jump landed with a slight touch down from the tip of the free blade may still receive partial credit. (Sasha's jumps)

[loveskating]

Originally posted by Marco
Isn't landing on 2 feet different from landing with a slight touch down from the free foot?

In the free skate, jumps landed on 2 feet don't really count right? (Oksana's 3flip from 1994 OLY FS and 99% of Elena Liashenko's 3loops) On the other hand, a jump landed with a slight touch down from the tip of the free blade may still receive partial credit. (Sasha's jumps)

The fact is that most jumps by top skaters that I've seen on television are called "two footed" by the commentators, rightly so, but what you actually see is a touchdown, or a scrape, and the jump therefore gets the more minor deduction, not the .4 wipeout. For instance, Michelle two footed her 3/3 tl in the LP at SLC, it was a touchdown, hard one, almost like Sasha's two footed toe loop in her 3 lutz/3 tl attempt -- but a touchdown.

And it all adds up.

I'm not even sure that casual fans can see such a touch down...but they are there, nonetheless.

BTW, because you did not specifically state which jump Sasha might have two footed, and used the plural "jumps", let me just say that most of Sasha's jumps are not two footed, and are technically quite pure...she may choke, but her jumps in general are very high quality except for the small flutz.

[loveskating]

Originally posted by Lee
Okay...what I meant is just what Ellyn said...the 'total' deductions for any element won't be any higher than the 0.4 for a botched element. 0.5's are reserved for those elements completely omitted or not attempted.

Thanks so much! I didn't realize that! Its so much more fun to watch skating when informed, so thanks again!

[AxelAnnie22]

Thanks for the interesting and knowledgeable discussion guys. I have a much better understanding now .....and just in time for the rule change! :lol:

[roogu]

Originally posted by loveskating
MIchelle Kwan two footed her lutz. and flutzed in the SP at 2001 Worlds

I won't argue the flutz part but I remember watching that and it seemed clearly that she two footed the lutz landing, but on the slo-mo replays, it was cleanly on one foot, albeit very very tight. Thank gawd that the judges have instant replays now too. I think that's really helped out in the short program, especially now that the elements in so many of them are so similar from skater to skater.

[loveskating]

Originally posted by roogu
I won't argue the flutz part but I remember watching that and it seemed clearly that she two footed the lutz landing, but on the slo-mo replays, it was cleanly on one foot, albeit very very tight. Thank gawd that the judges have instant replays now too. I think that's really helped out in the short program, especially now that the elements in so many of them are so similar from skater to skater.

On my slow mo re-plays, she clearly two footed it, pick in the ice, but barely. I recorded the ESPN version. I always look, because what with commentators making mistakes, like Scott claiming that Irina two footed her lutz in the LP at SLC, one has to take the responsibility to look.

But another example will do...Michelle two footed one in her 3/3 tl at SLC in the LP.

The important point in context is that these jumps get the smaller deduction...they are not going to get the .4 deduction...and I raised this issue because some posters seem to think that if a skater two foots a jump like this, the jump doesn't count at all.

[iceboy]

If a jump is landed on 2 feet with a cheat, no credit should be given to that specific element, if the rotation of the jump is complete but landed on two feet or with a touch, partial credit should be given to the element!