Why I'm bored with dance

[dbny]

I just got the Torvill and Dean tape "Path to Perfection" two weeks ago and have watched it at least five times already. They don't just skate and they don't just skate together. They actually DANCE TOGETHER on ice. They dance to the music. Their moves relate to the music in a way that makes sense. Granted, they were genius together and will likely not ever be equalled, but I have yet to see a dance team that comes close. It wasn't just that their choreography was clever, it was also really dance. I don't see the dance in what today's ice dancers are doing....just a bunch of moves strung together and a lot of gaudy costumes. The music is just background to them. Bourne and Kraatz have come the closest, IMO, but everyone seems to be so caught up in packing in as many difficult moves as they can, that they have forgotten what dance is about. They should all watch championship ballroom dancing sometime as a reminder. It wouldn't hurt them to watch T&D also.

[Aussie Willy]

Gee you have summed the current dance scene up really well with your comparisons to T&D. I do think though the last really great dance competitions were between skaters like Klimova/Ponamarenko, Usova/Zhulin and the Duchesnays. Particularly K&P and U&Z were great dancers and could really dance as well. As much as I thought the Duchesnays were not so great technicians or dancers they really had a way of grabbing your attention and getting an emotional reaction from the audience.

But I do agree that most of the dance programs these days basically are moves put together to make up a program. However I don't think the required elements, particularly in the FD help, because the programs are designed around those elements and the skaters are not able just let their programs flow.

I do think that there are many good quality skaters in the dance event - they are fine technicians - but they kind of lack the subtlety that T&D had. If you look at Bolero there is not one superflous move - it just flows effortlessly without the hysterics that many dancers resort to these days. But then most of the top dancers these days are coached by a few Russian coaches which does not help with any variety in style.

As for costumes - I sometimes think the old saying "less is more" should be applied to the event these days. It can be so detracting from the actual skating.

One of my favourite dances from the past season was Humphreys & Baranov's jive FD. I really enjoyed it because it was a really fun dance and it was what dancing is meant to be.

I look forward to reading what other people think about this because it is a good topic.

[backspin]

I totally agree w/ you. I think free dances today look so frantic, just seeing how fast you can twizzle & how many steps you can jam in.

I think the main reason for this is that the rules have changed drastically since T/D's day--they were restricted by rules that mandated that the dance look like a "dance" that could translate to the floor. Those rules are now gone, and we are left with dancers who are just trying for the most "difficult" steps, which IMO has come at the cost of musical interpretation & line & flow.

There are certainly some dances out there that I still like, but so many of them just are a big frantic jumble.

[icenut84]

I agree too. If you look back at T&D, their programmes were so original and artistic and creative and they just flowed so beautifully. I think these days a lot of skaters try to jam in as many fast steps as humanly possible, which sometimes gives difficulty but sometimes just doesn't. Take something like Bolero - there wasn't any frantic footwork or running at all, and yet it achieved multiple sixes on the technical merit mark, never mind the strings of sixes for artistic impression. That's because what they were doing was tremendously difficult, even though it wasn't frantic, and they made it look easy. I wish someone would take a leaf out of their book and try something slower for a free dance without sacrificing the difficulty. It'd certainly stand out. A lot of free dances seem to be similar these days too, although I agree Bourne & Kraatz stand out with their originality, which is one of the things I enjoy about their programmes. Unfortunately, for a lot of dance teams, they seem to sacrifice things like line and flow and deep edges in favour of going as fast as possible and doing as many steps as possible, never mind how well they are performed or how smoothly. And going for dramatics too much, emphasized by the costumes that used to compliment the dance and suit it perfectly and now... don't. Sometimes they do, but often they're just gaudy and too theatrical.

[tdnuva]

Another thing I can't find in most of the routines today is synchronity. Most of the times I think the skaters do choreography where they don't need synchronity - no real sbs steps anymore (except the required step sequences and they are in poor shape most of the time).

And what is lacking the most is good choreography. The routines have no structure, no concept - imho. There are few examples of course but too few in my eyes.

[Aussie Willy]

And while I am at it, many of the dance lifts these days just don't do it for me as an expression of the program. They may be difficult and clever, but not many of them go with the music. It is almost a test of the woman's flexibility sometimes.

And those lifts where the guy picks up the woman and swings her around. Again I think they might be required moves now but it doesn't really demonstrate anything other than they guy can pick her up and swing her around. Because you kind of see the same couples rehashing their same move year after year.

Will add move to the thread after further contemplation.

[SlipNSlide]

where did you get this tape from?

btw, i completely agree with what everyone else has had to say

[Azam356]

I also agree with everyone there is no dance in dance anymore What I did enjoy much more than the free dances were the few OD's that have been shown on TV. Everyone really dances to the music and it is interesting to see what music is picked and how it is interpreted and even the costumes are better I think the OD should maybe be longer and count more than the free dance The free dance is not dancing Could they do it on a ballroom floor? I don't thnk so LOL

[dbny]

Originally posted by SlipNSlide
where did you get this tape from?


I found it at half.com for less than half what it was going for on ebay. There are five complete T&D numbers on it and a lot of interviews with them and various other people in their lives. The dances are: Bolero, an early Jazz piece that I don't know the name of, Mack & Mabel, Barnum, and their fabulous set pattern Paso Doble. The Paso Doble has always been my favorite, but I had never seen Barnum or Mack & Mabel before and they are both just wonderful. In the Barnum dance, you can actually see the jugglers, clowns, trapeze etc. I just keep watching the dances over and over and marvelling at the difficulty, inventiveness, and perfect synchronicity. This business about every couple having to do separate steps is pure cr*p. What T&D do together is so much more challenging and artistic. Those highly vaunted separate twizzles are nothing compared to what T&D do in every dance hold possible. Sorry, I'm having trouble stopping...:roll:

[tdnuva]

That jazz piece must be "Summertime", their OSP 1981/1982.

[dbny]

Originally posted by tdnuva
That jazz piece must be "Summertime", their OSP 1981/1982.

No, actually, they did show some of that one too. Maybe I should have described this as more of a swing dance. It was fast, and they hadn't medaled in international competition yet. I'll make a note of it the next time I watch the tape.

[tdnuva]

Ok - let's do it completely. Here's my listing of Path of perfection:

Short interview with Torvill & Dean at the Queens ice rink in 1981
Free Dance: Bolero (completely, Europeans 1984)

Interview with Torvill & Dean in Nottingham
Short practice scene in Nottingham
Interview with Sandra Elson-Horvath
Short practice scene in Nottingham
Interview with PC Tony Waite
Interview with Lesley Webster
Short choreographing scene of Mack and Mabel in Nottingham
Interview with Betty Callaway
Compulsory Dance (short scene, Worlds 1982)
Interview with Betty Callaway
Interview with Krisztina Regöczy & András Sallay
Short warm-up scene from Worlds 1980
Free Dance: In the mood (partially, Worlds 1980)
Interview with Torvill & Dean

Practice scene in Oberstdorf
Interview with Courtney Jones
Interview with John Hennessy
OSP: Summertime (partially, Worlds 1982)
Interview with Betty Dean and Betty Torvill
Practice scene from Worlds 1982
Interview with George Torvill and Colin Dean
Free Dance: Mack and Mabel (completely, Worlds 1982)
Honor round after this free dance
Podium Worlds 1982
Interview with Torvill & Dean

OSP: Variations on Paganini (just some seconds, Worlds 1983)
Pictures from different routines
Free Dance: Bolero (only the beginning, Europeans 1984)
OSP: Capriccio Espagnol (only the beginning, Europeans 1984)
Interview with John Hennessy
Interview with András Sallay
Interview with Courtney Jones

Practice scene from Barnum on Ice during Worlds 1983
Interview with Michael Crawford
Free Dance: Barnum on Ice (completely, Worlds 1983)
Kiss and cry after this free dance
Interview with Michael Crawford
Interview with John Hennessy

Interview with Torvill & Dean
Interview with John Curry
Short warm-up scene from Europeans 1984
OSP: Capriccio Espagnol (completely, Europeans 1984)
Interview with Torvill & Dean
Interview with Betty Callaway
Interview with Torvill & Dean

short clips: History of love I, Courtney Jones, Mack and Mabel, Betty Callaway, Barnum on Ice, Michael Crawford, Capriccio Espagnol, Torvill & Dean, Bolero, Torvill & Dean, Bolero
---

I guess what you meant is then the free dance of worlds 1980.

[dbny]

Originally posted by tdnuva
I guess what you meant is then the free dance of worlds 1980.

Yes, that has to be it. Wow, how did you have the patience to go into all that detail? At this point, I'm just skipping all the talk and watching the dance.

[tdnuva]

:-))

The reason is that I'm working on a new T&D website - for quite a time actually. Cause it's really a whole world of its own. Always when you find something new, new questions arise. And it takes quite a time to find the background...

And those listings are linked with the informations, the links are the reasons why I do this so detailled.

[irene2020]

I agree :) Only B&K in have continued to bring some excitment into ice dancing in recent years. (Grishna and her partner were also good.)

The others seem to be too busy making deals and bribing the judges.

Interesting that A&P did not want to set their foot in US again to avoid any FBI investigation.

I find that in dance competitions, (in ballet, ballroom, jazz, etc etc), the dancers have to have beautiful moves. They can't just fling thier legs and arms around randomly. Atheletism is a also needed, of course. But in ice dancing, the skaters can do whatever they like and still win.

Sometimes I wonder if some fans of ice dancing have ever watched top-level ballet or ballroom or jazz or any other kinds of dancing.

[tdnuva]

Ok, I'm German. Which makes me biased by default. But just now I've watched the OD of Winkler & Lohse - and liked it very much. It was really Polka / Waltz and it was dance. And synchronous. They really dance with each other. Most of the criticism they got was "it's too simple". Perhaps it's the old problem that "looking simple" and "being simple" isn't the same?

We got to see only the last third part of Lobacheva & Averbukh but at least that part was nothing special to me. Always the same no matter what they skate to, drama king and queen... (ok, imho).



And concerning that "watching ballet". It just will bring up that old discussion whether figure skating is a sport or art. There always will be fans who just want to see as many steps / lifts / tricks as possible and call that sport. I personally watch figure skating cause it's (hopefully) interpreting music with a special flow that ballet can't have. But I watch ballet for the similar reason. It just provides other possibilities.

[Pekka]

:??
Ice Dance is so dull these days. Heinz Kutschera and co. have finally reached their goal (OK it has been the same for quite a while now)

Dance was the most exciting discipline in the days of Rahkamo&Kokko (particularly 1990-93), Torvill&Dean (not their '94 efforts), Duchesnays. Even the Russians with balletic performances were enjoyable.

I watched the ODs last night. Only Denkova&Stavyski's baroque number had any originality and artistic integrity in it.:x

Matti

[tangodiva]

Ice Dance is so dull these days. ..
Dance was the most exciting discipline in the days of Rahkamo&Kokko (particularly 1990-93), Torvill&Dean (not their '94 efforts), Duchesnays. Even the Russians with balletic performances were enjoyable.

I watched the ODs last night. Only Denkova&Stavyski's baroque number had any originality and artistic integrity in it

Amen to all that. R and K are sorely missed. I even miss Klimova and Ponnamarenko, who I didn't care for during their heyday.

And you're right, Denkova and Stavyski's baroque dance is truly original. Someone in an article on the AP wires today compared them to dancers on top of a music box. Good comparison.

[love2sk8]

I really miss Anissina and Peizerat....It took me a long time to like this team, but once I did (first exhibition number where i saw her lift him) they have been the ones I love to watch.

[Aussie Willy]

I agree about D&S's baroque OD. I have it from Skate Canada and thoroughly enjoyed it. And I loved the costumes because they were so appropriate. They compliment the performance rather than distracted from it. You cannot say that about many of the other teams. I have not had a chance to see W&L's dances yet - just waiting on my tapes from overseas.

I used to love teams like Punsalan & Swallow, Rahkammo & Kokko as well as U&Z and K&P.

What I liked best about P&S and R&K is even though they may not have been truly dancing at times, they were extremely interesting, entertaining and original. Who remembers P&S's car racing number? So maybe another problem is the lack of creativity that currently exist. There does not really seem to be any teams out there really grab you for coming up with something daring and original. But maybe there are no new ideas.

But again I think it is the rules that are stifling the creativity and not allowing dancers to create because they are trying so hard to carry out the rules, as well as increasing the difficulty.

[love2sk8]

I also liked Anjelica Krylova and Oleg Ovsianikov (sp)...they were great to watch!

[Pekka]

I agree with what tangodiva and Aussie Willie said. BTW - I finally saw this year's free dances - I better not comment. After the very good OD - D&S were disappointing and tasteless. Winkler&Lohse obviously tried something new - I'm not sure it worked, but in this company it was refreshing. N&V recycling the old Peter Gabriel music once again.......:frus:

OK - I haven't been watching figure skating much in recent years. I forgot A&P - IIRC some of their programmes were very nice.

Matti

[Xiaoxue]

Re: Constrictive Rules?

I don't know about this one. A few years back, when the sbs step sequence and diagonal step sequences were introduced, the aim was restore some structure and consequently, credibility, to the assessment of the dances.

We saw problems with some teams where one partner was considerably stronger than the other, and the sbs step sequence was the solution to potentially expose the weakness of imbalanced technical ability within a team. Sometimes, this weakness was made very obvious by the weaker skaters, but the judges were the ones who decided to overlook that fact.

I don't agree that the rules are what is constricting the creativity level of the dances. I believe it is the judges who are doing that. They are the ones who interpret the rules. They are the ones who reward fast and frantic skating over smooth edgey skating. They are the ones who supported the teams with ridiculously dramatic dances in favour of the dancey dances. They are the ones who are not deducting the marks for inappropriate costumes, or even some criticism on their appearance might be helpful.

I would not dismiss the rules as simply constricting the level of creativity. Afterall, they all had valid reasons for their inception, in my opinion.

[Aussie Willy]

Xiaoxue - I do agree with what you are saying and I do think sbs step sequences do highlight the weaker partner which I think is a good thing. It used to really annoy me that you could have a dance team where the woman was doing all the work and the man was just doing back chasses, crossovers and a few three turns.

But I think the reason for the rules was to answer criticism by the ISU that the judging event was rigged and thus they thought by setting some criteria, the judges would judge what they saw and be less open to corruption (which has since proven that it did not remove the corruption). However please correct me if I am wrong here.

What I can say though about the introduction of the rules, it now seems the better programs are the ones where the elements fit better in the program and are less obvious, thus the program flows better. I think teams like L&A, A&P and B&K have achieved this the best.

Pekka - I agree with you about D&S's FD. As much as I loved their OD, I really did not think their FD was as good as their ones from the past two seasons. It did not do much for me either.

[melanieuk]

Have watched Bolero a zillion times and still I see things in it that I missed before yet it looks so clean and uncomplicated.
They really danced with the music.

[RobinA]

I, too, liked T&D's Paso Doble the best of all their programs. I remember watching it at the Olympics and going "Oh...My....God." Bolero than put the icing on the cake. Dance up until that time, what little they showed of it, was too ballroom-on-ice for me.

Now, of course, it's gone the other way and gotten too frantic and herky-jerky. Dance shouldn't look like it hurts. Like the other skating disciplines, there's too much emphasis on difficulty for the sake of difficulty and not enough on the art of it.

Suzi Wynn always seems somewhat perplexed at the crowd's love for Winkler & Lohse, stating that their programs are "easy" compared to the other top teams. I think what she misses is that W&L put down an interesting, engaging program that the crowd can enjoy because there is an ease to it. Programs that scream "difficult" I think put the watcher on edge for fear the couple will land on the ice in a heap.